Who Are You Calling a "Geriatric" Mom?

with that name, thank you so much. Definitely a man um so more and more women are waiting to have children later in their life for a variety of reasons. We're going to talk about what it's like, the good things and the challenges and some of the unique experiences that make up what it's like to be a mom

over forty. So let's get started. And what's crazy is that this awesome group of women that we have collected are sort of like the Broadway women now that I am on Broadway, but sitting next to me, we have my dear dear friend Natasha Yvette Williams, who I share a dressing room with over at waitress. Those are the sweet sounds coming out of her voice because you guys, she plays Becky and waitress and she brings the entire

house down every night. Um, she's really scary because I do a huge vogal warm up and I asked her how do you warm up for your big song? And she said, I have a pepsi And that's how I knew I was in big trouble now. Um. We have also here Rachel Sklar, who is also affiliated with the Broadway because she is in a BMI workshop right now on being a lyricist, which is super exciting. Hi Rachel, Hi Rachel. We met through a mutual friend, Yes, yes

we did. Um Jamie Jamie Selter, who you guys. Jamie is a guest on the Milestones episode and goes way back with my husband and me. But I was emailing her like, who do you know that's like a kick ass mom in her forties and she was like, oh, hello Brooklyn, guys, Oh please don't be sorry. We're moms. We can't even remember to self, we can't Natasha's cellphones dead, Jennifer's cellphones on. Um. Yeah, I was reaching out to Jamie like I need moms in their four days and

she was like, well, you have to meet Rachel. Duh, it's so nice to meet you in person. Thank you for having me. Um. And then our last amazing guest is Jennifer Bullock and she joins us today. Is also a Broadway mama. Um, and she is actually here with her sweet sweet daughter Brooklyn, who um. If you guys hear her at any point she made, Brooklyn might be coming in and out definitely screaming. She's almost too so yes,

so real quick, let's go around, Natasha. How old are your kids and how old were you when you had them? My kids are seven years. I have a set of twins, boy girl twins that are seven and I've had them at four. Yes, you look incredible, Oh my god. Okay, and Rachel you Um, it's just me. I'm a single mom. I have a daughter named Ruby who's almost three and a half. And I got knocked up at forty one had a forty two. It was not planned, but it

was fortuitous. And what about you, Jennifer. Um, I got pregnant after like a lot of trying at forty four via IVF and had her. Um, you know, from when I was forty three and had her when I was forty four. Ladies, let's give us all around and applause, right, um, so all three of you, Um, it wasn't a surrogate adoption situation. All three of you guys actually got Oh you had IVF you said, yeah, right, Um? How many rounds did it take? Just one? I'm super lucky. That's great. Um.

And for you guys, did you for Rachel Natasha? Did you guys have challenges conceiving? And was the doctor very much like, well, you're old and that's why, or like, I mean, I may have had challenges conceiving that I wasn't aware of, but apparently not forty one years old and old fashioned. You got straight up knocked up, straight up knocked up fairly soon into the relationship, which was short lived by my account of the calendar. Um, and uh, yeah,

I guess, uh you know, what can I say? I just had the womb of a of a non geriatric woman, I guess. And you decided, I mean you wanted to keep or you wanted to be a mom, like oh yeah, you know, like when you got pregnant, did you know already that the relationship may not work or work in inkling? But I always knew that I want to be a mom I had had previously. This happened when I was forty one, and during my whole forty year I had this like quiet internal existential crisis about did I miss

the boat? What am I gonna do? How am I going to make this happen? You need willing sperm in order for this to happen. It is difficult to come by often, um, particularly as a single, unpartnered person, And and it was expensive otherwise, and I wasn't in a position to bankroller or even really honestly think about it. It was just so this was dumb luck. Wow, the dumbest luck. Wow wow. And um really quick to go back to you, Jennifer, like you had you been trying?

Were you a relationship for a really long time? You had been trying for a while. Did you start trying after forty? Yeah? So I actually got pregnant at forty and had a miscarriage, and um, then I got pregnant really soon after that again um, and had another risk carriage. And then from there nothing just went, you know, into you did have difficulties conceiving. Did your doctor along the

way say blame your age? UM. Initially no, I was living in the Midwest at the time, or actually, sorry, I was in d C. And I was seeing a doctor there who was like, hey, let's do a panel. Let's figure out what's going on with your body. Let's see, you know, if maybe you have a clouding issue or if there's something going on. So they did kind of say, you know, age could be a factor, but it wasn't like this is the factor. So we went and did a panel and did find some things that were wrong.

I had did have a clouding disorder. I had UM. Also an ability folic acid I can't it's antif hr luck right g mutation, So I had that too UM And then I thought, okay, well we'll fix those problems. Started trying again and nothing, and then I finally went to see a specialist who specializes in mini IVF, which is actually four older women. The theory behind it is that IVF gives you a whole lot of drugs, which creates a whole live eggs. Like shaking an apple tree.

You're gonna get unripe apples. You're gonna get apples. That apple You're just gonna shake it, and everything's gonna fall on the ground and that's what you're gonna get. Um, And he was saying that a lot of what you get in an IVF cycle and an older woman is unusable eggs. So he said, rather than give you all of that medicine, we're gonna give you just a couple of drugs to create the best eggs possible. And even though we'll only get a couple, those will be the best.

So yeah. So um, anyway, so that was our journey and uh and yeah, and it was pretty awesome. And like I said, we got pregnant right away. Um, we're really lucky. And what about you, Nitasha, I had lots of problems. I miscarried as well. It's not that part, but I miscarried twice and I, um, but my doctor did not tell me it was my age. She don't my weight because I'm overweight. Um, she talked about my weight. And then we also I also got tested and I found out I had a blocked ovary. Only one of

my ovaries worked or whatever or was open um. So then we did some flushing and we did a whole bunch of other stuff. Um. But I had gotten pregnant prior to that and miscarried so I knew that I could get pregnant, but just carrying it was the thing for me. And then it took like seven years and nothing. We were trying and nothing. So then I took some um, something called cloe mid trying to some kind of drug that fertility drug to help your eggs come out UM,

and that's I think. So yeah, but I you know, I was having such difficulty for that stretch that I thought they weren't going to run in this family. I had a miscarriage to at thirty five, and the doctor was definitely she only said it once, but you won't forget it, which is she said, like, well, you know, there is just sometimes splitting gets I guess when the

embryo or the chromosomes are splitting or that. She's like, you know, we don't know for sure yet, but like that doesn't seem to go as easily or smoothly when you're older. And I was like, say what, um, especially because I feel like, you know, we are coming into this time where there's just there's a lot I mean,

we're just not getting married off at thirteen. We're just not We are told, you know, but we're told like you can have it all, you know, So you're like, hold up, if I'm supposed to have it all and I'm supposed to have this career and I'm supposed to focus on me and be a badass and get this whole career happening, than marry the right person, find a partner and all of these things, Like how am I going to get that all done by a certain age to then be a mom? I mean, it's just it's

a lot. Can we go around and talk about how your pregnancy was as as being in you like, did you feel I mean, I think you can feel like shit at any age pregnant, but but were you told or do you think your pregnancy was different in any way? I know that they do actually do different sort of testing, right and watch you differently? What do you Rachel's give me if you're looking at me? So I'm just gonna go first. I'm short. I had a shockingly uneventful pregnancy.

For my first time in the office, I you know, I was told I was geriatric. I found that amusing, But that was literally the only time that I was treated like I was old. I'm in New York. I went to downtown O b G Y n uh down in Soho. They were completely unfazed. Nobody treated me like I was anything other than what they had seen many times. Yeah, I just everything. I had a very I was very lucky. I had a very good, happy, easy pregnancy. I you know,

I just I had this adorable bumps it was. I was before I have told myself, like, don't get crazy if you put on weight, like, don't get like, just like, whatever happens, you're going to deal with it, like you have this baby, You're so lucky. But also for the through the first trimester, like every day, I just like, please just make it through the day. Please just make it through the day, because I knew what the risks for and I knew I was lucky. I knew this

was a miracle baby. And by the time, I mean I like, I was not no longer with or on very good terms with with my child's father, sort of probably halfway through the first trimester. So this was the one. There wasn't there wasn't there were no more kicks that this particular can with this particular persona so um so Yeah, So I just I did. I had a really wonderful,

lucky pregnancy, and I didn't you know. The only the only thing that that um went awry was when it came time for delivery, and uh, you know, I had to vary a diva cervix that didn't you know, I just didn't want to open, and so I ended up having a c section at the last minute. But I mean otherwise everything was great, you know, knocking all the wood all about. I had a horrible time. I was sick every day from the first day I even know I was pregnant, un till the child until they took

the babies out. Um, I was on my floor in the bathroom because the tie was cold. Um, just sleeping every day almost I was on it every day, but I was in the majority of the time. I mean my husband would come home and know where I knew where I was on the bathroom floor, and he was like good. I was like, yep, I'm good, and I just sort of stayed there. Um. Do you think that

had anything to do with age or just well? No, I think well I think looking back now, mind, you haven't never carried a baby up until except for the twins, for any length of time, and I think it was because it was twins. I had a horrible doctor as well, who made me feel awful and everything that I called and said, oh my vagina is clicking, I'm okay, you're

I'm fifteen weeks. I was fifteen weeks because yes, at that first tribemester, I'm just especially after having a couple of misscaverages, I'm like, just please, can I just get to twelve weeks? You know? Um? So I got to fifteen and then my body started clicking. I was walking and making noises and a little bit of pain, and so I called the doctor and she would be like, yeah, you're pregnant. That's basically it, you know what I mean,

that kind of that's the I had. So um, yeah, I should have left, but I didn't even know enough to leave, you know what I mean. So at thirteen weeks, she said, oh, we're gonna have a c section. There's I mean, I had maybe one test prior to that, and I'm like, but can we just she said, no, you're gonna have twins, and so we're just gonna You're gonna have a C section. And I was like, oh, okay, um, because I didn't again, I didn't know enough to ask

any questions. Older mom, but ignorant you know, in terms of my body and what it does, because I really didn't even want kids for until I turned that thirty eight maybe, and then all of a sudden it was everything, you know, it was I woke up, Oh my god, I'm yes, and is this all there is? Basically, you know, I'm doing what I want to do. I'm you know, I'm having my career or whatever. But this is there got to be more to it than this. And then from that moment on it was about me giving to

someone else, you know. Um so, but yes, the pregnancy itself was very difficult, and as my body changed weekly, I did not have a doctor that helped me through that and understand that and all the stuff I was findings, Oh this means you're you have diabetes or this meslah blah, and I didn't have any of those things. But I did have um, morning sickness every day, um every day. And yes, what about you, Jennifer, how do you feel

how your pregnancy? Um? My pregnancy was pretty smooth and easy. However, I was pregnant in the Midwest, so I did not have the same kind of yeah cool whatever experience. They were you treated old like scared where they like by like this is like a miracle if you survive kind of Yeah. I mean my doctor was great. I don't mean that I had a bad doctor, but the general kind of energy. Yeah, the general like feeling when I went in there, I was like, whoa, She's alive, still here,

still kick in. Um. So that part was did they have you do extra testing? Yeah? They did. They considered me just super high risk because I had the Linen factor five, I had the m f mt h f r G mutation, so and I was I V Yeah. So those three things together was like, were you so

scared the whole time? I mean that must compound on itself, like you know I was, and I wasn't just because I was like you know what, I'm a Broadway chick, like we keep good like we we're young at hard We're not you might I might be like physically old, but I'm feeling like I'm okay. Plus I was in the fitness field, so I was you know, I had been working out regularly but prior to my pregnancy, and I was working out through my pregnancy, so I was

doing things to help myself. Um. But yeah, so anyway, there were lots of extra tests. Um. There was just a general kind of theme of let's cross our fingers and hope that you get through it. And um, I did have morning sickness, but it kind of waned after the three months, which was good. And then after that I felt pretty well. I didn't have any complications of any sort. Um. My doctor threw a curveball at me at like thirty eight weeks, was like, we're going to

induce you next week. And I had been like I wanted to go into labor naturally, like I was trying. I wanted to be naturally, wanted to go into labor naturally. I wanted to just kind of try to not have any drugs. So that one was a little like I had. The same thing happened, and it was because of my age. Again, I think I think there's I think actually, and I don't know because we don't have a documents episode, but

I think there is. I think there are Actually, when you're above thirty five, certain insurance companies do require you to do extra testing. I think that that come with your insurance package of being pregnant or whatever above a certain age. I'm pretty sure, but that yeah, yeah, yeah, thirty five geriatric test that could hurt your baby too, you know what I mean that they amniotic strongly recommend you take and right do you remember? I did not.

I felt like the other tests had made me sufficiently confident. I mean, who could be confident in anything? But I sort of made my piece with that that I didn't. I I felt I was so shaky about that first trimester and you know the delicate balance of just getting through it, that I was like, I'm not I'm not interfering with that ecosystem. Yeah. I I was told around thirty eight or nine weeks that Albie's stomach was not growing at the percentage rate that they wanted him to.

And so they said the same to me, like you're not going a day over forty weeks, we're gonna induce you. And I was so pissed because I of course had this birth plan in my head of like, the baby's going to go into labor naturally and he's going to decide his birth date, dime into astrology, all this hippie

dippie crap um. But he said the specialist in l A, like the number one guy, was like, oh no, no, you're thirty five, You're not going a day over over your forty week mark, um, which you know that's like a super you know, in in Europe and Canada and things like that, they actually have like labor windows where it's like they're they're good within three weeks early or forty two weeks late, whatever. But here in the States,

it's very much like this date. Um, So, I was induced and it was totally because of my age, um because he came out completely fine. But um so, um did you guys? Yeah, I got yes, I had a like a surgery, like I went to sleep. Oh yes, she had one of those labors that we talked about on this podcast. Yeah. In season one are my Obi was like, oh yeah, it could even get so bad that they knock you out for your favor for a twelve hours. And I met the person that they did

that too, and it's Natasha. I didn't meet my babies until twelve hours later. But um, and I didn't find out that's how you story boy, a boy and a girl. I didn't know their sexiest prior to two. I didn't want to know their sexiest so um because I was waiting on the doctor to say it's a boy, it's a girl. I really wanted that, sure, and I did that to happen. But anyway, so that didn't happen because my epidural didn't work. So because I have a my

spine is bent or something. So anyway, they couldn't get the epidural to work because I wanted drugs. I did want drugs and I wanted to just be awake to hear them say what was But anyway, Um, but anyway, that didn't work. So then they had to put me to sleep. But did they ask you? Did they say we're going to be putting you under I mean I don't. They said they have to. They told me they have to put me to sleep because the door didn't work and we had waited too long for anything else I

think to work. So um, but the day prior to that, my I had them at thirty seven weeks. Um, but I had a scheduled c section at forty weeks. But when I went in, you know at that time, you're going in weekly or whatever, and um, one of them was sitting on the other or smushing Baby A, was smushing baby B. And then they so then they said tomorrow you have to come and let's take her out,

take them out now, um, tomorrow. So that was my So they induced you give you that you tried to do it and no, no, no, they didn't induce me. They I didn't try to do it. I was always going to do a C section from thirteen weeks, not by choice, but that's what my doctor told me that I had to do because as I was having twins.

That's what she told me. Um. So I knew I was having a c section, but it was just supposed to be two weeks later than me going in and send them saying, oh no, this baby is you know, getting smashed, so let's take them out, um at thirty seven weeks. Ever, fine, they were fine. They stayed in the nick for a while. But I'm saying, you know, so, what kind of um like going from what I also think is crazy about having a baby in your forties

and thirty five. I'm just gonna let myself in with you guys, UM is that you've already been an adult doing your own crap for like a really long time, Like you know what I mean? Like I think there are people who have babies in their early twenties or they were mid twenties, and like, come on, let's be honest, they still don't even like really, I mean, you're they're

just becoming adults themselves, you know what I mean. Like we're sitting here and like we all had careers when we were working double the adult time, double the adult time. So like was it's such a shock for you guys, like to all of a sudden, you're forty years around the sun and now we are high Brooklyn. Yeah, we're talking about you and how awesome you are. You're forty

years around the sun. Like now all of a sudden, you you're not the center of that anymore, or like your life is drastically changing because you've been an adult

for longer. Like well, I do actually think that there's a distinction here between being in your being five you'r late thirties and being over forty because of the sort of like the intense emotional journey that takes place between you know, at thirty five, at least for me, you're just being treated like a real adult as a woman, right, Like women are so diminished and marginalized and just naturally like it's so career wise, you're sort of like just

hitting your stride. You're just that That was my experience um, and you know, but also like people change how they approach you, like when you're when you're thirty five, they're like, so, when are you gonna have kids? I turned forty, people stopped asking me even if I wanted kids, everyone just to seem even my parents, the conversation just ended. So

they're like there, like there's no chance. But there's like a personal internal grappling if you do want children, or if there's something that you have been sort of thinking about, if you're if you just think, you know, like I'm gonna meet this person or whatever. Maybe you're in a long relationship that doesn't work out, whatever happens, because there's a lot of things that can't work out or that

go you know, as you have not expected. Let's be honest, like, you know, the life that goes according to plan is kind of a boring life. Um. But the so that you you also there's like a coming to grips with it. So for me, I didn't by the time I realized I was pregnant, there was there the window for I haven't done this, I haven't done that, like that had

firmly passed. And so I think that for me, even though career wise, I've definitely given up a lot by being a single mom and just I just can't attend the same things. I can't show up in the same way. But you know, I always in my head, I'm like, well, I had all that, I had all that, the freedom to like run around and do everything, but I didn't have Ruby. Now I have Ruby, and that's sort of

that's everything. Yep, yep, yeah. I think forty is this huge looming number because my girlfriends in l A like that are single or you know, they have that number drilled into their mind of like, well, us external it has to be like if I'm thirty seven and I don't meet the guy by thirty eight and then get married by thirty nine, if we want to date for a year and then get pregnant, like I'm never going to make it in under the forty market's never gonna

happen for me. And then what happens after forty is it just my vagina drives up and is dead, Like clearly not in Rachel's case, clearly not Natasha's place, and clearly on Jennifer's case. So really hope it's still going strong and you're good to go, Like I am single. I mean, oy, that portion of the podcast on my bumble profile fantastic Katie's Crib and the crib knows you

will be finding Rachel Sclars bumble Um. So yeah, I don't know what, Like, I don't know where in society that number, Like, if thirty five is the geriatric pregnancy, what is it about forty that is the fucking thing? Um? Yeah, because I believe that you're in the same way that I had an experience with Gosh, let's hope you live. Um. A lot of doctors just don't believe the pregnancy. I mean, and you know there is you know, your body's aging,

it's changing. But I know so many women that have gotten pregnant over forty that I start to wonder if these beliefs that your potential is one percent or whatever there's two percent, is actually factual. I just don't I just don't know. Well, they say that over thirty five your eggs come out faster. You know, you're produce see more eggs after because the eggs are just trying to

get out. You got all these million, a million eggs, and right they're coming out faster because your body's like okay, we're taking what's going on. You haven't done anything with me yet, you know what I mean? So they're they're kicking out faster, so you actually can get pregnant easier. I'm not easier, but with more eggs ratio after thirty five, because they're coming out at a doubled rate. Did you the um? Your body can make babies because it's that's

what it's designed to do. Let's talk about disadvantage and advantages, which Rachel touched on, which was, you know, we got to live some awesome adult years. Um. I always think about the disadvantage of like, you know, my mom was twenty six when she got pregnant with me, and we've had this beautiful, incredible adult relationship for a really long time, and she, god willing, is going to be around for

a lot of my son's life. You know, she's sixty two years old, and um, do you guys I sometimes think about you know, like my friend that's dad is forty seven and has a newborn, right, it's hilarious, Brooklyn, Um, But like what happens at their college graduation when the dad is seventy seven? You know, Like, do you guys think about that? Do you care yes, I think about

you do because you're a one year old. You're forty four and you have a one to year so, but initially it never I never really thought of it until I was at a Walmart in Kansas and the lady was like my grandma, and I just was my ward. If you don't know, just don't ask. And I just discovered other people making a bigger deal out of it, like, oh, look at you, you know, just you know, how are you feeling? How's it keeping up with the tither? I'm like,

what do you think? Like, I don't know. So I felt like society kind of made me feel that way. I didn't feel that way initially, but society, please don't eat my shoe. But society was making me feel that way. And then as a result, all of a sudden, I was like, oh, no, you know, I'm an old mom. Am I gonna miss? Like? Am I going to be there for my daughter when she's older and going through

some difficulties? You know? So I started to think of it after society made a big deal of it, which was kind of a drag because it didn't really even dawn on me until that point. What about um, I think about it a lot, and I thought about it because my my mother had me at thirty two, which at that time, I think she's old. Because everybody in my class that I went to school with, all their moms were younger than my mom and my dad. So I always felt like I had an older parent. UM,

and my brother is thirteen years younger than me. My mother had him at forty two. Forty two and she was dead to the world in the bed she could not We were in North Carolina, UM and had her daughter. Her daughter was great, but just society and our environment, our community was very judgmental of her. I think, um, and she's married, now married and had a baby, but it was it was a surprise to her and UM. But my brother said something to me about UM because

they were forty two when he was born. He has because my mother passed in November. He said he was always expecting them to not be around because they were older, and that was his position as a person who was born to a forty two year old mother. So so yes, I think about it. But because he said that to me, I think about it because I'm like, oh, I've done the same thing, and now my kids, my mother's gone

and she didn't. I mean, she met my my children, but they don't have the same type of relationship with a grandmother that I, you know, would have wished for them. So that's certainly a downside. What do you think for me? I think about it all the time too. I mean I thought about it a lot prior to Ruby. My parents didn't have grandchildren, and I you know, that was a big part of wanting a child was also to give them that it was just part of the package

of um. And you know, we our family, it's I have a sister, we had a brother who passed away early, and sort of we like in the family. I it was like this feeling of like, oh, there's this like

peace that isn't happening. And then when Ruby was born, it you know, our family was a family of five again, and you know that the joy like there's no guarantees on anything, there's really like I think about that even like honestly getting anytime, like getting into a getting into the uber today, like I walking into the house, I'm like, like the not to be like really like a downer, but just I often think about when I get on the FDR, like I hope it don't get into an

accent like this thing makes a more life or death cycle. Until being I never had so many thoughts of like, when I'm driving a car, just all of you owning me, and because you're so you just really feel part of this sort of human flow cycle. Well particularly and yeah, I mean you you particularly have been part of enterprises that have contemplated death in many forms. So I mean it's just you. Yeah, So I do I think about that. I don't think about it in terms of me that much.

And maybe it's because I'm I'm a single mom. I live in New York. I sort of I roll with whoever I'm rolling with. I mean, I'm I don't feel like the old mom in in the mom group I am, but I know you the oldest I am. I am, but it and sometimes I'm like, wow, I'm like a decade old than you, um you know, to like some of my mom friends. But I don't know, I feel I like I'm I'm Ruby's mom. Ruby. I don't think Ruby would look around and be like I wish I

had a younger mom. I mean, I'm sure when she's thirteen, she'll look at other moms and be like mom, the other moms are so much cool. I mean, thank you. But your kid at thirteen, I'm pretty sure she's not going to think it, but would be an age probably, But I mean, I do I think about that. I just you know, we're so lucky that we can take like so many like photos and videos like we can,

we can. I have enough, And I think about I have enough sort of digital stuff to preserve, like like, at least my daughter will be able to know her family members of God forbid, somebody is not there at least people to say, look at how much they loved you, even though you can't not do it if you want, if you want to do it, yeah, it's not I mean, even even at my loss, I don't think I do it any differently, you know, I don't. I don't think I do it any differently because the joy of them

is worth even the price is. Oh I hope I'm around for longer to help them become who I want them to be. So there's this rush to get all that information in sometimes, but um, the choice that there was no other choice, you know, no other choice, no otherwise, and they had to had to happen regardless of how you know, if I had been fifty or however old um Janet Jackson just like fifty right now? Damn? Can we what about advantages? Because I think, I mean, I

feel like there are definite advantages. Definitely being more established, hopefully you know, hopefully enabled to in terms of care for your child or do some things that you know you would like to do, and having traveled or done whatever you wanted to do, had time to do that makes you more I mean I was like in twenties, I had zero dollars, like zero, I mean, I was

a waitress. And yes there's that thing like you don't need money for a baby, you just need love and like fine, but yeah, but like I literally having in one room and I could have done it, but it would have looked very different. And I have to say, I spend a lot of time and career and valued time on my career to get to a place and have health insurance. And I have to say, like these worries about whether or not I'm going to be around

for his whole thing or whatever. It's like yeah, but then in my twenties, I would have been completely worried about him having fucking health insurance. So it's like, you know, I yes, And I traveled a bunch, which was great, and I got to spend a lot of really lovely quality time with my husband, who I haven't seen in the entire year of Albi's life except on stage at waitress. Um, but what do you guys advantages for you have them? Um?

I kind of agree with what you were saying Rachel before how like I didn't really know myself until I turned forty. I didn't know who I was or what I mean I was. I stellf still feel like I'm learning, but I definitely kind of established myself as a human being somewhere around the age of forty. So like Natasha was saying, like I was more suited, more capable of taking care of a child because I was comfortable with

who I was. I was not wishing that I was doing other things like getting my nails painted or club nine. Actually never clubbed, you know something like that. Yeah, Like, I just was happy being me and I knew what I would be able to offer a child. And I think that nature has ad percent got it wrong. I think that women in their forties are in something not for everybody. Obviously, you can be supermature and be sixteen.

But a lot of women in their forties are just more capable, more suitable, more able to be the mom my daughter's on the phone, um, more capable to be the mom that you know I wanted to be, you know, and um, So I think there's a huge advantage to waiting, in a huge advantage to really being secure in yourself and knowing who you are and having done all those things I've done nationally, tours like I've had, I've traveled, I've done it, and now it's her. It's everything about her.

So I think, like the the identity piece that you're talking about, right is um for me. I get a kick out of being known as Ruby's mom. Like I don't feel like, oh, you don't feel resented, Like I don't feel like my I don't have an identity or or it's being subsumed in the mom thing. I mean, I'm in a lot of mom groups. I love mom groups.

I stand for mom groups. So do I. But I and so I see I see so like you know a lot of women who really struggle with their identity being seemed into that of their children, particularly if they're if they're staying home and so I mean the first A lot of my friends told me, like, the first few years are gonna be hard. They're gonna be hard. It's gonna be hard to see the career things that you want to do, you're not gonna be able to

do them. And it's just it's just powerful, of course, and I and I really did see like a turning point when Ruby was around like two two and a half. I just was able to do more things. And then I was able to do the b and my musical theater workshop and just you know, you have a whole other life. But um, you know, when when you talk about being forty, being more established, like I was definitely more established in my career, but I was also an entrepreneur, freelancer, creative.

So in my twenties, I was a lawyer. So if I had gotten pregnant as a lawyer in my twenties, I would have had far fewer financial concerns. When you talk about living in a room, I was in a room I was my first year with Ruby was in my studio apartment on the Lower East Side. That was my like you know, like my I'm in my thirties. I guess I'm not going to move when I get into my forties apartment. Um, and it and it worked.

It was fine. I mean, I you know, slapping her in the car seat with everything up four flights of stairs whatever, everybody makes it work. I and but then also having Ruby or Funny, and I was pregnant, just was the fire needed to light under me. I was like, okay, I'm a single mom. I'm gonna response for this child. I guess I have to start putting making money, you know, ahead in the priority list. And as a creative you you're always like money. You know what I wanted to

I want to do my art. I mean there's nobody who can say more definitively like I prioritize my creative life over money than a person who left law to be a freelance writer. I mean, had I stayed in law, things would have been very different right now. Um, but for you, part of me not meant for you know, but but I do think that there is something about no matter where you are, there is something very clarifying about when I touched I said before is said, Okay,

I'm responsible for another person. It's not about me anymore. Are time to get the financial house in order, so a couple more questions, how did your um. We talked a little bit about this, Rachel, But did any of you guys have and you talked about this in the Midwest Doctor's feeling some way, But did you guys have any family or friends that reacted poorly or wonderfully to you guys? Being pregny into the age you are like, my dad was nervous. Like I'd be like, Dad, are

you excited. He'd be like, well, I'm anxious. I'm like, are you but anxious and excited. He'd like, well, I'm excited and anxious. Um, but you know, but otherwise, my my family's is amazing. Yeah, my my sister has been a godsend. I mean I really I often don't feel like a single parent, Like I like, I started something called the Luckiest. I always say I'm so lucky. To Ruby, I'm always say we're the luckiest. I feel really lucky. I am very supported. I have a great sister, she

comes and visits all the time. My family, my parents are amazing. My cousin Jacob, who lives in New York, always comes like we have I have a great village. Yeah, I have a UM. I don't remember right, you have to have a village. I don't think I've had anybody unsupportive. I did have people a little nervous for me, just because of my losses, um and because um when my second mischaracters were very soon after my first UM, so I got right back on the horse and they were like, look,

can you just stick ammitted? And then there was this dry spell and I was like, no, we gotta go, we go, you know. Um. But I didn't have anybody that was really unsupportive. I just had a few people that were a little nervous for me. But yeah, I think I would say the same people were definitely cautious around. You know. How's how you how you feeling everything? Okay? I mean, do you guys feel that like the support

system that you guys are talking about is it. Do you feel like it's different or more involved than other less involved because everyone's like, oh, you're old enough, you were you're you're you're good to go. And I will say to that same extent, um, my father is no longer alive and my mother is too elderly to help with my daughter. So I don't have that same kind of you know, oh, mom will come over and watch.

You know, my mother in law is some more than capable, but they lived down in North Carolina, so it's far away. So my family, my you know, my my older brother, he has kid, he's had his kids. They're one of them in college already. So that was the weird thing for me was just having this like nobody really available. My younger brother just recently, who's forty five, just recently had a child. It's six months older than Brooklyn. Wow.

So but we live about an hour and a half apart, so that makes it a little bit challenging to But yeah, so for me, like the support system is there in theory, but not in my every day and my every day it's in her all the time, no nanny, no sitters. Yeah, she's here right now representing My own support system is mostly friends and a few family members because I don't have any family near me. My husband has a brother, a couple of brothers here and so they're family helps

out and reaches out. But I missed because I'm from North Carolina in a big family, and I really miss everybody chipping in. And my sister lives in Virginia and it's just so far, but we make sure the kids are together every summer and um, but but I would love a little bit more village, you know, um, just for my own sanity. And you're very good at like you have a really good nanny, syt today today the nanny is great. Um. But yeah, it's it's you know,

it's but it has not stopped in seven years. It had not stopped in terms of me searching and trying to find what is right. Yeah, yeah, I mean I created one. I created my village. First of all. Living in New York, you have a village of helpers in the form of apps. Right, I can get food delivered to me, you know, Amazon Prime. I can get what

I need very easily, which is helpful. That's still, I don't want to sugarcoat what it is to be a single mother, or even just to be a mother, like like just having a child, having the responsibility of a

child and the needs of a child. It's not like, I mean, Brooklyn is being extraordinarily right now, but it's you know, there were many many times I would bring Ruby with me to a conference or whatever, and like a lot of times even when I'd be I I do tv UM here and there and I'd be asked to do a remote segment and it would just be me and her, and I'd be like, the only way I can be sure that she's going to be quiet is if I nurse her on camera. So f y I if she comes off the boob, we might have

to end the segment. But I did segments like that a bunch of times. It was totally fine. Um, it just it does requires just some doing. But um, I will say that when I put her in daycare, it's such a fruitful relationship with the other moms. I these are her friends. These are best friends. I mean, and I love the moms like we have the greatest time, it really and so that that has been a definite benefit to me. So I have this great village because

I do my family. They live in Toronto, and um, it can be hard sometimes it's but um yeah, it's really everything seems really easy when you're sitting talking about it, when you're like you have a deadline and your child is screaming or whatever, just pooped all over the place. Like it's not always. I've had some people like like

talking about this social media or whatever. I don't know that we were talking about it but I'm talking about now, like you know, like you say, when you're when you're having those moments where, um, your child is throwing macaroni across the room or whatever they're doing being children, and then you have the judgment of people like say I said, I tweeted one day, Oh my god, somebody helped me. My child just put macaroni all over blah blah blah.

And then to have attacks I've had attacks this way. Um, you should be grateful you have those children. And I was like, oh, I'm grateful, but I don't want mcaroni, yes and cheez it's all in the furniture. I'm grateful. But to have that type of um mentality come thrown at you and to say, you know, you should know

better and you should blah blah blah. I think we as women need to help and parents just give ourselves a little bit more of a break, you know, um for the human side of Yeah, that's a huge guilt in this in this podcast because we have so many moms. Is yes, the judgment and surrounding yourself with people and loved ones in your village, whoever that may be, whether it's chosen or blood or whatever. But like people who

support you and don't judge you. And and um, I want to go around really quickly while we before we end, and just say, do you guys have any words of wisdom or advice to a either women who are in their forties and may not have a kid but really want one, or maybe a new mom who's in her forties and just had a baby. Doesn't have to be rocket science, can just be like good luck whatever, say that you can. You can be a mom. There are

millions of ways to do it. Um. I have so many friends who had performing careers who chose to become mothers later in life, and whether they did it with their own eggs, a donor egg, they adopted a child, they used to surrogate. Um, you know, I know literally a woman that has done every one of those roots and they are all so happy and in love with their children. So I don't think that you ever have to write motherhood off. UM. I feel that I can always be something that can be in your life if

you choose for it to be there. I love that. That's great, Rachel, all of that for sure, I think, Um. I always I always say that I'm a cautionary tale. Because I just got so lucky. I would never say you can't plan for luck. Luck is not a strategy.

If you want to have children, then definitely do as I say, not as I did, because I flailed for years and and wanted it, didn't want to articulate it this there's still this sort of feeling like shame in admitting that you haven't found the partner to have the children, like you know, and this was this was all what I had, bottling me up and feeling like, what's wrong with me? What am I? Am I going to be able to do it? Doing that calculus of like am I gonna like when I meet him? How soon is

it to be able to be impregnated? Like that's a crazy way to think in relation and you don't even you don't need the relationship. I have been a very happy single mom. I am delighted that she has a good relationship with her father. I am delighted that we were never legally bound, and I am pretty sure that he feels the same way. Uh, and so I think. But I will say also is in terms of legality, is if there's no shame in in asking for help and support the you know, the the villa kind. Thank

you Hillary Clinton for that phrase. Um and uh and the legally obligated kind too. I see so many women again in these mom groups and my single mom groups who say that they didn't want to ask for helper. That I mean, it's it's it's paying for your child. It's that's what we do. That's what we all do, what all parents should do. I love that. I just have advice for just dotting everything that has been said before. If you want children, do it, just do it. Do

like Nike. I'm a supporter of Nike. Um, just do it um. Because and that doesn't mean you have to birth them or whatever. It doesn't doesn't mean anything. It just means see a child that that needs and you can go and parent and help and help that parent or mentor or do whatever you can to sort of feel the need or the emptiness that you might feel inside of your that's what you're feeling for being a mother. If you want to be a mother, be a mother, and it doesn't have to be a child that comes

from you. Um. And then if you are an older mother, I want to say, just leave all the shame, the guilt, the judgment and all that stuff. Out the door. I love your child. Do the best you can every day, get up, do the best you can, try to do better than you did yesterday, and that's all you can do. Cannot thank you guys. Thank you, thank you, Natasha, thank you, Rachel, thank you, Jennifer, thank you, Brooklyn, Thank you guys so much.

This is so inspiring. I can't even tell you and I like Brooklyn says bye bye, say bye Katie's Crib. Can you say that bye? Thank you guys so much for listening and for your amazing feedback and tweets and messages and reviews and sharing Katie's Crib with your friends and your family. It means so so much to me, So please keep it coming and check us out on shawanda land dot com. Make sure to subscribe so you never miss an episode. We're on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher,

and wherever you get your podcasts. Do I love you want it Where I want to want you? I love you want to get you where I want you. I don't you want it where I want to want you. I lot to get you where I want you