‘Waking Up White’ w/ Debby Irving & Dr. Margaret Hagerman

anti racist society. I sit down with racial justice educator and writer Debbie Irving, as well as sociologist and college professor doctor Margaret Hagerman to discuss ways we can shape our children's environment so that we're not reproducing patterns of racial inequality. And of course, a really big part of it is starting with ourselves. We've got two interviews for you in this episode, so let's go ahead and get to it. Here's my first guest. I want to introduce you,

guys to the wonderful Debbie Irving. She is a racial justice educator. She's an author of the book called Waking Up White and Finding Myself in the Story of Race, which I am very admittingly so too slow to have done myself. And as you are, just catching someone who is doing this currently. I only got the misinformation that I'm now learning we get in school, which you're an educator,

and I want to get into all of that. But like you being from Boston and me being a New Yorker, what I did feel growing up in school was that slavery has nothing to do with me because I'm from the North, correct, and I my people didn't do all of that horrible stuff down there. That is a Southern problem, right, And I've heard you had that feeling as well. And it's not until recently with everything going on in this country where I have had to come to terms with

my own racism. Um how that has been a huge part of my life without me knowing, which is white privilege and of itself, and really trying to learn quickly so that I can be a good mom, but also realizing it's going to take my whole life to to truly understand unlearned what I know and relearn some good stuff thanks to people like you. So tell me about

the Boston thing. Well, the Boston thing, so yeah, we I absolutely I got this message that we were all squeaky clean in the North, but those bad people in the South, you know, they were the racists, and I had no idea how much racism was happening right under my nose, all around me. And I think it's really important to make a connection to what we're talking about with the squeaky cooing North and color blind, because they go together. So I'm musing what I had. Yeah, well

you're getting with me. So I also grew up in a house where we didn't talk about it. It was considered. I don't know if anyone told me that talking about race was rude, but uh, you know that kids pick things up so quickly. All and if you read my book, you know my opening question to my mother is whatever happened to all the Indians? Well she got so, she behaved, she was Her answer was so unlike anything she'd ever said that you know, she told me that the Indians

had drank themselves to death. And she gave me a kind of a horror story. It was so out of character and so uncomfortable that that's all I needed to know. Never go there again. That shushing like that is not it's rude. It's rude. It's rude. So you know, in that conversation happened in the context of it never being spoken about and think about so I was born in nineteen sixty. Uh, this is the right in the civil

rights movement, and color blind becomes a political position. You know, we're going to have color blind policies, which presumes are such a thing as race neutral, which now as we understand bias, there is no such things girl, right, But boy, did that philosophy, that ideology leak out into the ideological ether that we were all in because every every most people I know, unless they had very intentional parents who understood racism, and we're unpacking it and that excuse much

more to families of color who need to understand it to survive. But I made very few white families, um, who are out of the sixties. And that can mean you who were raised by parents who that's right, out of the right, that's right. What since it wasn't spoken about in your house? What was your whiteness awakening? Like,

here's mine. You're looking at it, and I have to say, you know, like I did work in Shonda Land for a decade and it is the greatest place in the world where my boss is a powerful black woman, The lead of my show is a powerful black woman. It is a place of work where it feels like, oh, this is just how things are, and it's not until now stepping out where I'm like, holy crap, this is

a nightmare. You know. Like I literally got to work eighty hours a week for ten years in Utopia and producing content that that was actually you know, I was so grateful for, like you know, Grey's Anatomy and other shows that started to portray for my children who are now twenty two and five, Um, a world that was not all white, you know, and where the people of color were not like the custodians or or or in jail or something like. We're fully embodied characters with with

you know, complicated loves like any human being. So that's where I've worked for a decade. It always felt like, well, things are so great here, and we're making such moves and strides, you know, and now it's just I mean, look, this horrible stuff is obviously been going on forever. Um, but it wasn't my norm. It wasn't my every day even around a lot of black people in Hollywood. Um. So, so I think I have a pathetic little um look alike to you, like a little parallel story. Tell me

so I got. I grew up in white bubble Winchester, which is this affluent, you know, uh neighborhoods. Step and then I went to white bubble Kenyon College in Ohio. And then I come back and I immediately get a job trying to raise money for underprivileged, under resourced kids and inner city neighborhoods. And so for the first time in my life, I find myself like going to some neighborhoods and they don't look anything like mine. And and it's so clear to me that there's a correlation between shiny,

big houses and green lawns and white people. And I am speaking now in a black white paradigm as opposed to complicating a little bit more, which I can do later. And and uh going to neighborhoods with dilapidated houses and schools with literally broken windows. Um, and those neighborhoods were populated by black folks, and yet we weren't supposed to talk about it because it was rude. Yeah, I was supposed to be raising money to create after school programs for these kids. And so I was on fire. I

was like, this is terrible. You know, nobody should have to live in these conditions, and um, I've went out to raise money, which I could do. I thought I was a great fundraiser. It turns out I had really good social connections, you know, more white privilege and also white arrogance, white entitlement, like all of that was in me and I'm sure it's still in me and plenty of ways. And so that experience UM set me on a course of starting to join diversity committees trying to learn.

And yet as I sat on diversity committees that that elephant in the room feeling was ever there, and no one ever turned to me, which I think they would do today and say you have to examine your own whiteness debby UM. So I ended up being um coddled, I think by people of color who wanted access to the wealth I had access to UM, and that allowed me to stay in this really sickening white savior role for years. So I thought I was doing it. Started in the in the performing arts on the man I saw,

I see where you're coming from. Wow, okay. See. Then I became an elementary school teacher, and I carried my saviorism there and and you know, in retrospect, it's just stunning to me that I didn't dig more deeply into what is this elephant in the room? Feeling like, why am I not as appreciated as I think I should be would probably be a really awful way to say that. Um. And it was at the age of forty eight. I'm sixty now. It was amazing. I know you guys can't

see her because we're listening, but amazing. They'll be a picture up on will post, okay. Um. So it wasn't until the age of forty eight that I went back to get my masters in special education and there was a required first course called Racial and Cultural Identities. I thought I was going there to learn about other people's children so I could get better at teaching them big air quotes around them, And instead it was a six month deep dive into my own racial and cultural identity, which, oh,

by the way, I didn't even know I had. Yeah, because you've been doing great, helpful work in black communities for a very long time. You were like good, well, so I thought, yeah, And the more I learned so I also was a history major. The history I learned in that six month graduate school course it just unraveled me. It I started I carried a bottle of ginger role with me. It made me so sick to my stomach because my whole world it was that this is not

the country I was told. That that sort of means my family is not the family I was told. And I'm not the person I was old and I've been out there making an ass of myself and probably creating more harm than good for twenty five years. And how come it took a mandatory graduate level course for this to happen? And this is why I were so happy to have you on Katie's Crip because even though, let's say, you know, this is a mom podcast and a lot of our moms are listening, but you can't deny that

the work starts with our personal self. Until we are able to have that sort of realization that you've had and where you fit into all of this and what you are guilty of and we all are, and your own racism, my own racism, and my own white privilege, and really start to have honest conversations with yourself, with your family, with your people who your care taking your child with, then you can't, uh, I just I don't think we can do a good job as parents until

we examine that stuff, right, I agree, And you know, I think there's an interesting So I think you, um, one of the things that you've discussed on this podcast with your listeners postpartum depression, is that, right, A ton? Yeah? Okay. So I had horrible postpartum depression and nobody so my first child was born in UM and nobody was talking about it. I mean, people weren't even on talking about good luck. Yeah, good luck. So I totally suffered in silence,

which of course made it worse. And when I finally started to, you know, eke out to people like I've really been struggling with postpartum depression, UM, people would say, oh my god, I did too, or my sisters had a terrible time with that, or you know, I just learned my mother, you know, thirty years ago. So it's that kind of thing that once we start speaking openly about something, we can start to understand how prevalent it is.

We can start to think together about out how to work towards solutions, how to alleviate suffering and not feel so alone and not feel like I felt like I was seriously a flawed human being for having postpartum depression. Absolutely well, it's so inherently like I had it too. But it's like to to to you feel like you're not a woman, like how how could I my my my body did this or did you whatever? Like I am a mother, Like that's what I'm supposed to be

doing in the most primal way. I'm supposed to and I'm supposed to like it. And I don't like this and I can't control my feelings at all, like I'm miserable, right right, So here are the number of times you said should. There's a lot of that around umledging our white privilege. I should, you know, I should, or you know, or I'm a good person, like I have to maintain

my facade. And that is the worst approach because as long as we are super invested in being seen as good people, we can't just sort of say, oh my god, I've created I've participated in a in a corrupt system. I have perpetuated and perpetuated it. Oh, now that explains the time I had that conversation three years ago with

that person and I couldn't you know. It's we can't let all that in until we can understand that it is possible to be a good and beautiful and well meaning white person and also have um soaked in racist ideas our whole lives and acted them out in ways we don't even know. Um, can you quickly just explain to me white privilege, because I think of everyone I've been listening to, you do such a great job to explain this does not mean money people, right? Right? Which

was I mean? When I first heard the term white privilege years ago, I did not think it applied to me, and I could not be I was not from a rich household, you know. I was like, Oh, no, no, that's not They're not talking about me. Well, I'm talking about me and my way privilege. Can you explain that? Yeah? So I think in the context of this conversation, a social justice conversation, UM, the word privilege does not mean money.

It means lack of discrimination. So if you think of um, discrimination as the short end of the stick, well, you can't have a short end of a stick without a long end. Privilege is the long end. So I have sis gender privilege. Um, I have heterosexual privilege. You know I didn't have to I've been able. I was able to marry and be public about the person I fell in love with That was really convenient. I didn't you know the laws fit, the customs, the norms, public perception

at fit. Um, I have Christian privilege, you know, we're in a Christian country. I have able bodied, temporarily able bodied privilege. Um, I do have privilege, and I have racial privilege. Racial privilege in this country is called white privilege. It is possible to have white privilege and be impoverished or working class. And I think it's really hard for

those folks to understand what white privilege will look like. Um, it looks like because you're white, you're walking around the store holding something is a different situation than someone than a black person walking around a store who might get followed, or being in an elevator alone with a woman or something like that. Correct, that's yeah, And we can make

a much longer list. It would. It looks like if you have children and those kids go to school, Um, impoverished white children are given extra attention and and teachers bring them food and really, you know, want to say this family is down on their luck, I'm really going to help this kid and offer kids of color It's like, well that family is around damn fault, you know, they

got themselves into this mess. Is absolutely heartbreak. Okay, the kids, the white kids will see themselves all over the school curriculum. They have something to aspire to. Kids of color may never see themselves in the curriculum. The white kids will see themselves and more and more likely to see themselves, and administrators and teachers. Not so for kids of color. Um, God, running so deep, I don't even know. I mean, it's just, this is four hundred years of the system. I mean,

this is just it's a lot. It's a lot to unpack. Now what I think your work is so incredible because you have this amazing site and we will put a link to it. UM that gives us tools um of things that we can be doing when we're waking up ourselves, and then tools that we can transform this anxiety and in action to actual empowerment and action UM as ourselves as individuals, and then that translate it into ourselves as parents.

If you ask me, um, so, can you talk a little bit about your twenty one day racial Equit Habit building challenge. It's so good, it's so good. So one of the most incredible mentors you know, any white person who does this work well is surrounded by mentors of color.

And one of my first and um still someone I talked to all the time, Dr Eddie Moore Jr. He's a black man who founded the White Privileged Conference one years ago, back when everyone was telling him you can't name it that um and you know, he just persevered and persevered, has grown to this huge conference. You know Robin D'Angelo who won't right for so she's she's out of that. A lot of us have done are some

of our real boot camp work at that conference. So anyway, Dr Moore called me one day and he said, you know, because he and I have been talking about, isn't it doesn't drive you crazy? After our workshops? How everyone, you know, the white people always say tell me what to do And we're like, well, you just had this major Like can't you just sit with this brand new information we gave you? And then we realized, wait, that's really harsh.

People do need something to do, so um and I think he used to say to people, just go do something every day, three six, five days a year. So he said, you know what, It's just I just came up with the idea debbie of twenty one days. I think that's that's what they whoever they are, say, that's what it takes to to break a habit or yea hand in hand, right, And um, I loved the idea, so we just he had that idea and like three days later we had this thing and it is great

and it's been adopted. I mean, I think if you google it, it's like, you know, and twenty million hits because the entire organizations take the plan and make it their own. So the all you have to do is do one thing a day for twenty one days, and we give you the things. We just did a twenty one day version about protest and rebellion to saw that that was amazing, and it has like it's like it's like the first step will be all these links of what to read, and then it will be all these

links of things to listen to. And what's great for moms who go to your site is that each thing tells you how long it is, so you can know, my kidnaps this long. I can't fit this podcast or this article or this video in, you know what I mean. Um, And then and I found that to be super helpful, and I love this part of the twenty one day you're you become a learner more than a knower. Can you talk about this. I'm a huge fan of this because I think this really is key for parenting as well.

And you can talk about this because you have two kids. What do you mean by being a learner more than a knower? Well, what's it? Can sound easy enough? Oh yeah, I'm gonna do a little less talking. I'm gonna actually consume, I'm gonna learn when I'm sitting with people. I'm gonna

ask more questions. I'm gonna listen more. The thing about becoming a learner more than a knower is that our dominant culture in the United States, which is a white culture, so dominant white culture, teaches us from a really early age to show what you know. We get rewarded for what we know. We get grades, you go on, and we're competitive around it. You know, we get jobs, we get promotions, we get bonuses, we get salaries, um, we get lots and lots and lots of cookies for showing

how much we know. And often we get shunned by asking a stupid question because it reveals what we don't know, as if somehow we are all supposed to know everything. And you know, one of the biggest fears I hear from white people is I'm so afraid of saying the wrong thing. You know, my god, what if I say the wrong thing? And um, how can we how can we learn if we aren't acknowledging to ourselves and even those around us. I really I am so ignorant on

this topic. I have so much to learn. And then you know, if going to a workshop, for instance, or having a relationship with a with a friend or colleague of color, or multiple colleagues of color, if you're white. Um, often white people have a habit of just talking a lot, taking up a lot of space because no one's ever asked us not to. Meanwhile, people of color have been

told not to speak literally during enslavement. Don't speak until you're spoken to, and speaking up um often gets people of color and trouble if if speaking up includes his her their truth. So we have this conversational and balance,

this taking up space and balance. So by being a learner and not a knower, it means you just get into a space of just you know, deep humility that sounds that's that's very good, And I feel almost parallel else to parenthood because it's like you become a mom and all of a sudden you're like supposed to be the expert at being a mom, like you've never done it before. I don't give a crap how many books you read on motherhood. It's completely different than actually doing it.

I was a nanny for ten years. I suck at being a mom. Some days suck. And I've had a lot of hands on experience, you know. Um, but I think you know in terms of this topic and racism and white privilege. I mean, this is honestly, I've been having a ton of conversations with my family and my friends in the past three weeks, and this is this. This is one of two public conversations I've ever had. And so I keep saying my clothing is like soaked because I'm so nervous about saying the wrong thing. Um.

But I also I'm just jumping in. I don't know what else to do. I can't keep doing what I've been doing or in the ginger real stage, That's why I was saying I was carrying around injurrel all the time because I felt nauseous. Oh. I mean, when I list learned the things I didn't know. I am so horrified, disgusted. So now, on top of the twenty one Day Racial Equity Habit Building Challenge, you also have put on there the twenty one Day Racial Equity Challenge specifically around protests

and rebellions. Do you think that there is Do you encourage parents to be bringing their kids to things like this, like, um, do you think it's an important Um? I mean I think it's a mix of things. I also think there's a pandemic going around, and I think it's really um what parents feel comfortable with in terms of safety and health and things like that. And it's a personal thing, but um, that's really a textual Yeah, it's true because it's it does have to do. We do have a pandemic.

So who in the family has what kind of uh, you know, existing conditions? Yeah, and what what town are we talking about? Um? I mean my brother is in Mill Valley, California, and he and his family have been, you know, going out and being a part of the protests. Um. If you live in a different part of the world and there's more potential for violence, um than you know,

maybe you don't bring the kids. I think one of the most important things is UM, Can your family hold the conversation, can you prepare your kids for it, Can you help your kids make meaning of what's going on at the event, and can you help them process it afterwards? And it doesn't mean you have to be an expert to be in that position. It means you need to have that humility. So I think it's perfectly fine for a parent to say, you know, um, my mom and

dad never took me to anything like this. Uh. Maybe that's because there weren't protests in that their particular childhood, or you know, because they really wanted me to protect me from it. UM. And I think it's really important if we're going to be I want our family to be engaged citizens. And I think it's important that we show up. And it's not fair. You know, the way the world is right now, it's not fair. And by showing up, I want to be a part of UM

creating a more fair world. Do you remember the first time your kids like noticed a black person or what you said? And you might not because you're so deep in this work, it might not have even been a thing. I don't know. Well I do, and I actually I write about it in the book because my daughter, Emily, um, was in the third grade. And so I'm in Cambridge, Massachusetts and very diverse uh town city, and all of the schools it's a lottery system, so all of the

schools are reflect the demographics of the city. So she's in a very diverse classroom. And I was doing the dishes one night and she kind of sidled up to me and just kind of leaned against me, which was very out of the ordinary. And she was dipping her hands and the SuDS and just sitting there and then standing there and she said, Mom, how come all the white parents come to pick their cuds up at school and all the black kids get on the bus. Oh,

there you have it? And what did you say? I said, Now, I wasn't I hadn't started I hadn't started that graduate school, of course, yet I was still in my superhero and I said, Um, you know, Emily, that is such a good question, and I don't have the answer, um, And you know, it's it's interesting that I answered in such an honest, humble way, because it wasn't the energy I brought out into the world around this work. But I think the way I answered was a was a good

way to answer. It's it's absolutely fine to model for your kids. Here's where I dropped the bet. You don't know that you I don't know? Yeah, and to honor the question. Yeah, it's a great question. What a good question because we never want to stop the question, and having our curiosity slapped out of us is a good is part of the way this goes away when we're supposed to be knowing, knowing, knowing, showing how much we know.

All the time we turn off. We we kind of doll down the parts of our humanity that keep us alive and curious. So, um, what I don't like about my answer is that that I left it right there, and shame on me for that. You know what if I had said that is such a good question. I don't know why I hadn't thought to ask them. You know, I think we can. Let's let's figure it out together, you know, let's go talk to some of your teachers.

So let's was the internet there certainly today you could or the other thing you could say is you know, I'm I don't know the answer, and I'm sort of embarrassed. I don't know the answer. I would love to meet you right back here tomorrow night when I'm doing the dishes, and I am going to do a little research between now and then, so that what you're you're doing a lot in that kind of exchange. You're honoring the question, um, which will You're being honest, you're modeling that adults don't

know everything. You're modeling that I care enough to go in search of it, and um, and then think of the conversation you could have. And then you're buying yourself some dang time to figure out right, right, that's such a good question. Let me think about it. Probably has lots of applications. I mean, because I would have to buy myself time. I would be like, I will come back to you after mommy has done some real work

and research to figure out the answer to that. You know, and in this time, in this age, you we could probably even find a child friendly site with that, and you could say, look at this, I found this great organization which I would never have known about if you hadn't asked me that question. This is really great. Um. And you were a because what I for what you said? What grades you taught K one too? Oh? My people

are my people. So if learning what the kids are learning in school is so crucial, and you're such an educator, how do we stop this whitewashing of history? Like, what how do we do? I mean, obviously I don't know. I haven't started school yet. I don't know how to fight for different textbooks or is that something we need to be doing or is it that the school is what the school curriculum is, and we just need to

do our jobs at home to teach them the real truth. Well, you certainly need to do that at home pace um, And it will vary school district by school district, But you know, there's some there are some generalizations I can UM feel pretty confident in talking about. Uh. There in every town that I've encountered, in every private school I've encountered, there is a vocal minority of the wealthiest, most powerful parents who do not want to see this kind of change.

I did not send my child here to learn about this. I want them to know Shakespeare and you know, Chaucer and um and what one of them. And one of the big questions is, um, will this moment change that? I mean, I'm seeing the impact of this kind of global awakening reach people who I've never seen before. A lot of CEO letters are going out, So how will

that translate into schools? Will schools start to say, oh, maybe the thing that I've been hearing about my school trying to do that i've been resisting is worth knowing more about. Um? Yes, so certainly. And it's not like we need to invent a curriculum that teaches all of this stuff exists. I mean, you know, the school really changing the way we educate our children, UM, I think would just be so wonderful for all the kids. It's it's just it's changing from this rigid testing to a

very human center. I mean that's for people who understand how to create equitable, racially equitable schools. Um at the center of any racially equity equitable move whether it's in healthcare, transportation, food supply, education, finance, housing, etcetera. What we're talking about is a more humane world. It's the inhumanity of the white supremacist culture that we're living in. Is that that's

the struggle is too. I mean, when you hear defund the police, it's let's take some of that budget and put it into community workers. So when when people start to understand the issue, you will also start to hear what the solutions are, and the solutions are always about moving towards a more humane way of being. So and

now here's a complication. Um between here and the paradise utopia that we may or may not ever get to, is that our public school teachers or so I think all school teachers in the United States K to twelve are white, and most of those white teachers have not done the kind of internal work um that's required and so um, you know, imagine a white teacher being told, uh, you know you're not you're not teaching my my son, you're not teaching my black son, you're not teaching my

black daughter. Uh. That teacher is very likely going to get so defensive, and that white teacher has the power. So um. Often what I hear are parents of color who go in to speak to teachers and administrators and they get labeled the angry, unreasonable parents, and then they lose all advocacy over their children. And so it's essential and you can't teach what you don't know. There's a book by that title, and you can't lead where you

won't go. That's somebody else's phrase. So we really need our teachers to be deep lee on board with doing an internal overhaul as well as the systemic overhaul. That's what I feel like the moms, the white moms need to do as well. Yes, because we could say, I mean, you could get all the great books in the world, and the kind of conversations that are going to come up aren't conversations that you're necessarily ready for. Debbie, you

are a wealth of help to all of us. And it's what's I really I think moms don't have a lot of time. I think a lot of the moms I've been talking to are like frantically trying to do this work and at the same time are having a lot It's been very hard because a lot of their lives have changed because of coronavirus UM and they're exhausted.

And that is white privilege. Okay, we know this that like black moms and black families have been doing this work because they have to since their babies came out of the womb. We have gotten to push it off and be too tired and we're not going to read the book because our kids had a tough day in a tantrum whatever the hell it is, um. But what's so gried about your site is that it's all very centrally located and easily accessible for our mom's listening and like.

And it is the long haul. It's not like we have to be the perfect experts on this in the next two weeks. I mean, this is, this is, this is, this is, this is a life change. You know, Um, before we close out, what is your hope during this time? You know? My hope? Um, of course, none of all this white waking up matters if it doesn't translate into improved material and psychological conditions for Black people, Indigenous people, Latin X people, Asian people. And so that's the real measure.

White people will never be able to say whether or not we're doing better or worse. Only our brothers and sisters of color can let us know that. And it is going to be a long haul. And so with all of that in mind, my hope, my greatest hope for this moment is that we are on a journey together. We are on it. We are going to learn in the same way we learned about COVID. You know, we just all frantically learned how to be safe around it.

We're all going to learn about how racism works and it's not going to go away as soon as the sports and the movies and everything comes back. Um m m yeah. And that and and that also that people like you and your generation raised the first generation of non color blind kids. Mhm. I hope we all look to that challenge and you know, just face it head on and are brave and make real strides, because we

definitely can't keep going the way we've been. We can't keep going the way we've been parenting around race, no way. And I can I can give some bright, bright news in there, and that is that, um, the very same skills you will use to get better and better at having complicated, um, sometimes confusing conversations around race are the same skills that you will use to have complicated, hard conversations in your marriage and or with your partner and

with your children as they get older. You know, really strong conflict navigation and difficult conversation skills are our skills that transfer across all kinds of topics topics exactly. And you also, UM, I think that we white people, particularly

around the topic of race. You know, Robin D'Angelo wrote the book White Fragility, which is also a really great read, and um, brilliant book, and she's really helped me see the way that as a woman in this society, I was supposed to be sort of demure and not necessarily speak my mind and not rock the boat, and that one of the results of that is that, um, I

don't necessarily know how to speak up effectively. I have kind of two modes, you know, I go quiet and seld or tie or I you know, lose my ship, excuse my friends. And there's and there's this whole world in between, which is really really um calm, drama free, intelligent, honest,

authentic conversation where we think together as human beings. And so there are a lot of skills and and emotional capacities that we develop, I would say, reclaiming parts of our humanity that we develop in this work that translates to every single quarter of our lives. It's Debbie Irving. You are a gem. It was a pleasure to spend some time with you. I can't recommend to our listeners enough to visit your website and read your book. Okay, just keep going on and on. And I know me too,

this is wonderful. I'm I'm feeling hope, I'm feeling hopeful, and I'm feeling um, I'm just feeling like a lot of excitement around being a mom at this time. And I hope we get to look back at this first generation of kids having the language skills and the action skills around race to make our world a better place. You know, I'll leave it with one last thing. Um uh. There are many cultures, including indigenous culture, where one of the ways you lead your life is you think about

what kind of ancestor do I want to be? WHOA? WHOA? What I think I hear you saying is you're feeling the responsibility of that and the potential and the excitement of that. Absolutely absolutely what answer that for yourself? Listeners? What kind of ancestor do you want to be? Thank you so much. Next up, we've got Dr Margaret Hagerman. You guys, I'm so happy and thrilled to bring to

you today, Dr Margaret Hagerman. I'm going to call her Maggie, but she's very fancy, so she goes by Dr Margaret Hagerman. But because I like to know her, I'll call her Maggie. She is a sociologist. She's the author of the book White Kids Growing up with privilege in a racially divided America. Her reached, which explores how children and youth learned about racism,

racial inequality, and racial privilege in their everyday lives. Dr Margaret Hagerman, Maggie, thank you so much for taking the time. I'm sure you are very busy these days. Um, and I'm so grateful you have agreed to join us and share your valuable insight. And I wanted to start with, um, how how you were brought up? Like you study how children learn race, So would you mind sharing a little bit how you how race was viewed in your home growing up. Sure, So I grew up in a suburban

area in Massachusetts outside of Boston. Um, and it was a predominantly white community. Um, pretty affluent, I would say. And um, I remember having a lot of questions about race honestly when I was when I was growing up, but I didn't have any of the language to talk

about it. So, like I ran track, for instance, I remember like leaving my community to go to a different school to run a track meet and noticing that like, not only were the people at that school different than me in terms of like their race, but also like the conditions of the schools. You know, they maybe weren't as nice, or they were falling apart or you know. UM. And so I remember like noticing all these patterns, but

then not really feeling comfortable enough to ask anyone about them. UM. And it really wasn't until I got to college that I took a class and I was like, wow, I you know, never thought about all this stuff before. And that's really to be clear. You identify white, yes, I identify as white. Yeah. And I should say like my parents were very open and talking about current events and controversial topics, and I do you know, I do feel like they gave me some tools, like some analytical tools

early on. But it really truly wasn't until I was in a space where I was challenged, UM, and some of the assumptions that I had about the world were kind of turned upside down and I had to had to think differently and and learned differently. I also grew up in a white, um affluent community. Even though it was diverse in that there were all different colors in my public school, everyone a lot of times stuck to themselves. It was only if sports teams would mix and things

like that. UM, and I just sort of accepted it for how that is. And I, you know, I just I I already can see that sort of very easy trap to fall in because you're raising your kid in a certain neighborhood, it goes to a certain school, and all of a sudden, we're part of the same systemic

racism that has been perpetuated for hundreds of years. So this way that I was raised color blind, now again, like I think my parents are so love filled, Like I love that I, you know, brought home black black husband. Well I have a not black husband, but black boyfriends. And my parents never said anything. I mean, the one thing they were upset about was one of the dudes I was dating was twenty years older than me. That was upsetting. But they never brought up race. And I

still have not had the conversation with them. Did you not bring it up because you didn't have the tools? Did you not bring it up because you thought it was wrong? And you thought in those times, you know, the two thousands, there was this whole thing about well, I don't see race because we're all equal, and that's the way to be. Tell me why that's so wrong. I agree with you, But tell our listeners. Why that

is not the way I will be raising my son. Well, I think the reality is that, you know, I'm a sociologist, so I'm really into data and sort of what we know from from scientific studies, and certainly, like you mentioned your kids, like I mean, whether or not you talk to your child. I mean, there's research that shows that even little kids like three year olds are already noticing

these patterns. They're noticing differences between themselves and others. They're really into sorting, and so all of these kinds of developmental processes are underway. And because we live in a society where race shape so much of what's around us, like you said, where we live, um, the kinds of friends that we might have. As you're paying attention to this and noticing this at really early ages. So just because you don't talk about it, I mean, that doesn't

change anything. And Um, what I found in interviewing like middle school age kids, so they were like between ten and thirteen, is that for those that were growing up in families that really embraced this color blind approach is kind of what you're talking about. They were so insecure about talking about race. They had a lot of anxieties about being called racist. UM. And they really just weren't

prepared to live in a diverse democracy quite frankly. UM. And so I think that by not having those conversations, you're actually like, I mean, your kids are still going to develop ideas, you know, UM, they still have questions, and I don't think that it I don't think it really helps anything to just sort of ignore it. UM. And also I should add, you know, just I think a lot about like how kids aren't about sex. Um.

You know, they talked to their friends. And so the question is sort of like, do you want to be the one to talk to your children about racism and that legacy or do you want to leave it up to here with the information information that they're getting. Um. But let's first let's talk about UM, this study that. Let's talk about the book that you devoted two years in an urban and suburban mind western community, UM to explore the process of racial learning and how it unfolds

an upper middle class white families. UM. And you used this I've never said this word good luck Katie Ethnography. Yep, yeah, what is that? Yeah? So you know you could give white people a survey and say hey, what are your racial attitudes? But what we know is that they probably won't be honest, and so that research methodology is not really the best for trying to understand how it is that people are making meaning and sort of understanding the

world around them. UM. And so when it comes up trying to make sense of like how kids learn about race, you know, that's all a process of meaning making. And so in order to really examine that, UM, ethnographers sort of put themselves into a community and spend a long period of time there and sort of really try to understand how the people in that community are making sense

of their world. UM. And so for my study that involved I had thirty families that agreed to participate, and these were all families that had children between the ages of ten and thirteen. UM. These were families that identified as affluent and white. UM. And I can talk you know, if you I can talk more about what that means, you know, how they how I measured affluence. But basically, these were families that could make all different kinds of

choices for their kids lives. UM. And so I spent time with them, like I babysat a bunch of the kids. I drove lots of people total practice practices, like really a thing. I did a lot of, um, but yeah, and then I also did like you know, um, birthday parties and just normal like everyday kinds of things with

kids doing their homework all that kind of stuff. Um, and I interviewed the parents, I interviewed the kids, and so over the course of two years, I was really able to, I think, grasp a pretty good understanding of what was going on and and how this process of racial learning actually works. Um. So that's the power of an ethnic I can't even imagine. I'm imagining you taking a car load of kids to soccer practice and being like, so, let's talk about race. What do you guys think about race?

Like is it like that or is it much more nuanced and like more observing, like observing what's going on at the country club or whatever it is? Like, Yeah,

so definitely I think the ladder. I mean, in fact, when the kids were in the car together, that's like such a great time to observe them because like here in the backseat, like having their a whole little conversation, and um, there were things also when you're in a car, you're moving through different parts of the city, for example, and so listening to what kids are saying as they're

looking out the window and what they're seeing. Um. And I actually found that that a lot of you know, a lot of the stuff that came up was really organic. It just sort of came into conversation like and I think you know a lot of parents say this to me that, like like they feel stunned when their kid asked the question like where did that come from? Like, you know, I don't know how to answer it. And I felt that way too, Like these moments just sort of like emerged out of nowhere, which is why I

needed to spend all this time just with these kids. Um, because you know, there are a lot of other moments where race wasn't the topic, fighting or whatever. Yeah, yeah, they wanted candy or they whatever. Um. Based on your research, Um, what what did you think is the most crucial for non black parents to be cognizant of? And what are

they what should we be willing to change? Like what did were any of these Had you seen that any of the parents that you studied had race conversations with their kids or is it a similar situation to what I had growing up? So that's a really I think important question because what I found was that there were different groups of parents in the study. Um, there were different like different parents made different choices about how to set up their child social world, and subsequently their children

then had different ideas about race. Um. And so I think, you know, one of the findings that I that I came to is that not all of the white children in this book I think the same way about race, even though they're very similar, you know, they all and they've been provided Yeah, exactly. Interesting. So wow, how we raise our kids and what we talk about really makes a difference, is what I mean, can help? This inspired, This inspires me. This is good. I like this. Okay,

So how did they talk about it? What did they do? Um? Okay? So for the families that were approaching more of like a race conscious you know, perspective, they I mean they were and some of the families truly were. I mean these were these were people who identified openly as anti racists. They were involved in anti racist organizations in their community.

This research was conducted in two thousand eleven. Sou you know, um, Trayvon Martin had been murdered, and I think that sort of you know, initiated some of this, but um, certainly I think that, um, you know, these families were very committed to their children attending the local public school that was racially integrated. They then when they were at the school, some of them at least would fight some of the

internal um segregation within the school. So, like, I'm really thinking about this concept of tracking where you know, the ap classes have you know, primarily primarily white kids, and then the basic classes have primarily black kids. You know, So, um, these are parents that are really committed across the board. Um, I you know, Nonetheless, I do identify ways that they unintentionally reproduce some of the very things they're trying to challenge.

For example, they would get their kids like extra tutoring, or you know, they try to get them. They'll use their social networks to get their kids into some like really prestigious coveted internship over the summer, even though they knew that you know, how I grew up, how I grew up. But what's interesting about those parents though, is

that like they get it. They understand that that like race matters, that racism is a problem, you know, But even still, when it came to their own kid, they felt like I've got to give them a leg up. So yeah, what I thought was so brilliant about your study and about interviews that I have watched a view, um, is that there's this inherent problem where even people such

as myself like totally privileged, was raised in a privileged way. Um, that even though I would like to think I want to make choices that are the best for my community, when it comes down to it, parents really just want

to do what's best for their own kid. And so even if you claim to be an anti racist doing the work, blah blah blah, but you're still like, yeah, but I'm still going to fight to get my kid with the best tutor or into the best school, or into the best soccer team or whatever the hell it is, because somewhere along the line, we've been conditioned to be very selfish and and in that like or not, I don't know how you perceive it, but that my job is to give all that I can in the best

ways to my child and not to my community as a whole. Right, Yeah, it's like a problem. Like I have really learned that, I'm serious, I have. I mean, look, I think, um, hopefully a lot of people out there listening right now, especially white people, are doing a lot of self reflection and looking at how they were raised and how they talked about race with their families. And this work has come way too late in my life,

for sure, I will be the first to admit that. Um, but I'm really seeing I mean I already see it happening with my friends, like we want to give what's best for our kids, Like you just want to do what's best for your kids. I would give him the shirt off my back. I would give him all my money. I would. I want to give him the best opportunities. Um. And that doesn't eat that's in complete conflict with giving him a integrated UM childhood? Really right? Am I wrong?

What do you think? Yeah? I mean this is like the real core of I think my argument, um is that we yeah, we have us collectively agreed upon idea that being a good parent means giving your kid the most that you possibly can, no matter which means the most expensive for if you are affluent and white, privileged whatever. UM, it often means. There's a concept in sociology called opportunity hoarding, so it means hoarding opportunities for your for your own child.

And you know, I think when parents do these things, they're not they're not mean spirited, They're not trying to hurt other people. That's the whole point. It's that it's this, it's this process where the consequences are that you reproduce these patterns of inequality, you pass on you know, your privilege to your children, and um, you know that that I think continues some of the major problems that we have in our society. Um, something that I often so

I talked to a lot of parents. I've been you know, going around the country since my book came out and talking different groups, and parents often asked me like, while, what am I supposed to do, like I do want to give my kids? You know, are you saying I shouldn't give my kids piano lessons? Like? You know? And

It's like, no, that's not what I'm saying. But um, you know, there's some evidence that if we look at like like rates of suicide and depression and anxiety and this whole like frenzy that a lot of of affluent white families engage with about getting their kids all, you know, getting into Harvard, this whole like, I literally think it's a frenzy. Um. You know, I think some of that actually is really bad for kids. And I think is evidence to suggests that that that going to Harvard is

not necessarily going to mean that you're happy. And every single parent that had ever met has told me that they want their kids to be happy. So I think we could challenge some of these ideas about what it means to be a good parent and what kinds of gifts do we actually want to give the future generation. Do we want to give them more inequality, more racism, more problems, or do we want to empower them to you know, be part of something better. I want to

do that. I would like to do that. So let's talk about in your book, you you call something which is like an action item, right of what we could do. Like, so there's this idea of bundled choices. Right if I pick this white neighborhood to live in that has this white fancy private school that has this soccer team, like whatever, Like all of a sudden, you're in this um, this predestined situation from this one choice, what are other choices

I could be making? Sure? So I think, um, the choices about where to live are certainly complicated, but I think we could, you know, I think people could collectively sort of shift how they make decisions about where to live UM, or shift decisions about what school they send their kids to. UM. You know, there's a really great organization called Integrated Schools that tries to help parents UM who want to who want to send their kids to

integrated schools. UM. A lot of parents talk to me and say, especially white parents, and they say like, well, I don't want my I don't want my kids to be the only white kid at the school, that kind of thing. UM. And I think we need to get past all of that, and we need to think about, UM you know, how how school integration is actually one of the best ways to combat racism UM. And there's all kinds of evidence that suggests that's true. UM. So I do think that that's one that's one action item

in making these decisions. I also think that parents can be really deliberate in the kinds of spaces that they spend their time. UM. You know, I think that the friendship groups that that parents have, UM, the kinds of media that gets consumed, the kinds of there's a lot of discussion right now about books that parents are reading

and kids are reading. I think that's really important. Um, you know, giving kids this critical language to ask the questions that like I didn't have the language to ask when I was growing up. Um. And I think, you know, even things like like choosing the kinds of extracurricular activities. Um, you know, what kinds of what kinds of ideas about competition are you reproducing? You know that that kind of

gets really broad. But I just think that in general, I've already been thinking about like Okay, I mean I think like in my neighborhood, for example, there's like a pretty good public school. I would say most of the rich kids in my neighborhood opts to go to the private school that's also down the street, and like all woo woo and progressive and all this ship. Now, Um, in learning everything I'm learning, that's not a choice. I

I feel very excited about not making that choice. But also I feel like there's other things you can do, like like where can he go to soccer practice? Like if l A is so segregated geographically, like can I do a little bit more of the legwork and figure out extracurricular things? He could do that might not be in this exact neighborhood, that would help introduce him to other people, other kinds of people, like black people, like

you know, like, is that a choice I should be making? Like, well, you know, it's the for the kids in my study, you know, only one of them of the of the thirties six kids in total that I that I studied, only one of them had a meaningful relationship with a black child, Only one in the whole study. Now, the thing that was so fascinating about this was that there's a lot of research about like, you know, if you put people of different groups together, you know, do they

suddenly get along and like racism is over? Obviously no, But I think there's evidence that shows that when kids like have a shared goal with you know, across the different types of whatever groups that might be gender, race, um, if they if they genuinely care about each other, you know that these kinds of things can at least help.

I'm not saying these are like going to like solve racism, but I do think that like in the in my book, for example, that one child that had that friend, Um, there was this rule at the school about hoodies and you you weren supposed to have your hoodie up over your head, you know, in class or whatever. But it was only the black kids that that we get in trouble for having their hoodies up. And so this was

a whole thing that kids were talking about. Um, you know, they really saw this as an example of a racial injustice at their school. But the only child who who really like took a stand and who who had any like emotional response to this was this one child whose best friend was like getting racially profiled at school, you know, And so I do I did see sort of like that child was talking about race in a slightly different way, and he was he was motivated beyond just like I

don't want to be racist. He motivated like my friend is being hurt and I want to do something to try to fix this if I can. Um. So again, it's just one kid, you know, I don't have a

representative sample across the whole country. But but there's a personal connection because he's having personal, real experience, right And UM, just another quick example, you know, I went back and reinterviewed a third of these kids when they were in high school, so like f four or five years later, and um, there had been a black teenager who was killed by the police in one of the neighborhoods that I studied, And so I talked to the kids who

are now and who were now teenagers about this, and Um, it was the kids who were going to the integrated school who had you know, that one kid that that was that I just mentioned. Um, the kids who had a more critical lens on race be in middle childhood, like when they were in middle school. Um, they were the kids that were the most um, sort of you know, committed to standing behind their black peers as they did a school walkout. You know, they wanted to be there

in a supportive role. Um. They weren't trying to lead it. You know, they weren't trying to take over like a lot of times why people do. Um. They just clearly had developed a set of skills that I was frankly kind of surprised by. Um. And but I think that that's that's not just what parents what their parents told them, right.

In fact, some of those kids were arguing with their parents about the incident that had happened and the murder that had happened, and had different opinions from their parents, and so you know, I guess I just think that that provides a really clear example of how it's the larger environment. You know, kids are developing their own ideas, they're not simply reproducing their the ideas of their parents.

So if they're not given the opportunity to have these like more you know, broader, more inclusive friendship groups and soccer teams and whatever, then you know, that's definitely not gonna happen. Right, So, like some of that at least can be helpful. And for those who, let's say they don't have the privilege to make choices about which schools they had rolled in or you know, and those sort of things, how how can they positively like impact their

social environment. Yeah, it's a good it's a good question. Yeah. So my research is really on these like privileged people who you know, who can kind of opt out whatever they want. Um. But I think that in fact, there's a lot of evidence that shows that like working class white people, despite um some stereotypes, are and some studies are shown to be more racially progressive than than the sort of like affluent educated white people. So that there's

kind of a debate in the field about that. But I do think that there are still so many different kinds of decisions that parents make, like you know, the like again, like the kinds of media that that is, that are that's consumed. And I was really surprised at how often I grew up in a house my parents were kind of weird actually, and we didn't have a TV. Um and so I don't really like, you know, I watched Scandal, but I didn't really watch, Like I don't like watch I don't have the TV on all the

time or anything. I'm not saying that like judgment away. It's just like the reality of no, you weren't raised with TV. I was ontomatically like, we're your parents hippies. Well, it's possible. They're in Massachusetts. My parents are in Vermont, Like I love It's okay, so so no TV, but but I don't like what I did. I did the study, Like I was really surprised being in other people's homes for such extended periods of time, like just how often they had like the radio on or the TV on

just kind of in the background. Um. And I think that you know, even even things like social media, um, that are that are the kids are more controlling that that's also something that parents can can talk with their children about and try to teach them how to discern between things that are you know, factual versus not. And um, I'm sure you've seen some of the recent stuff about like white white teenagers being recruited from these like white

nationalist organizations via social media. So like, I think that, like the list of things that parents can do and worry about is really long. But no, it's so bad. I'm like, I'm just hoping my son's two and a half. I'm just hoping like we've like completely like social media doesn't exist by the time he's like fourteen. I know that's not going to be possible, But that's what I

like pray for because it scares me so much. I mean in terms of I mean, it scares me in terms of everything, but in terms of just racism or or like you said, like news sensationalized stories, what's true what's not? I mean, I have a hard time discerning that. And I'm thirty seven, let alone a fourteen year old, you know, who's looking at stuff on Instagram or TikTok or whatever the hell it is. Um, let alone, what's

coming in on the TV? What's coming in and all their songs, Like I listened to the cool stuff on the radio and I don't even know what the hell is happening. I mean, I feel so old it's unreal. Um, but that has all had, that has to all contr ribute to the what's coming into your kid's brain. So in this very complicated, difficult time of unrest, what is

helping you to find hope these days? Or like, what hope can we offer the moms out there who are like uncertain about our kids future in a world that looks like this. I think that the real hope is that this will be a moment where white people and white parents but also people who are not parents are that white people in general will move from talking about racism to changing their actual behaviors. Um. I think that the number one thing that white parents in particularly to

think about is how actions speak louder than words. So what the how they're setting up their kids lives is ultimately in many ways like just as maybe even more

important than what they say about race. Like, my hope is that this is a moment where folks who are you know, newly you know, like you know, waking up you know, or becoming more aware I guess of racial inequality and racial oppression and racial violence that they will then you know, take this forward into actions and think about how even at the very micro level of the way that they're parenting and living their lives, like that's part of the problem, you know, the little larger structural

problem too. Can you tell us about your latest study. I'm kind of horrified by it. Actually, I'm not gonna lie. I'm like horrified. Is it going to be a book? I'm like so scared when it comes out what the research you find is. Yeah, So I'm working on this, this book. Um, So basically, I in this new project, I'm really interested in how geography, like where you live and what part of the country, and also politics at the political landscape, how these are also aspects of a

child social world. So in my first project, it was really sort of like neighborhoods and schools and peers. And in the second project, I'm trying to build out a little bit and think about how, you know, what does it mean to grow up in Mississippi, which is where I live, um, you know right now, versus growing up in a place like Massachusetts, where I used to live. As a child, you know, And and how do these

geographic regions matter, If they matter, do they matter? That's kind of my question, um for how for how kids across racial and class lines are thinking about race? Um? And in addition, how does the Trump era, uh, particularly following the Obama era, Like, how does this this shift in political leadership, um, the explicit racism from the president, how does that, you know, shape how young people are thinking about race and racism um in America? And so

I am horrified to know what you're learning. I am very scared. I'm not gonna lie. It's intense research. Like in my previous study, a lot of the white kids would say racism, I don't you know, racism doesn't matter anymore, Like we're past racism. Racism is over that used to be in the asked like Martin Luther King, you know that kind of thing. Um, the kids now, the kids now, we're not saying that. They're saying, yeah, racism exists, but I don't care. They're like, yeah, Trump is racist, but

I don't care. Whereas in the past kids would be like that, No, politicians aren't racist. What are you talking about. Maybe there's a couple of racists down in the South or something, you know. But um, so this this concept of racial apathy, that's what I'm really seeing an increase in UM, at least with at a small scale in

my study. And there's certainly some larger and more nationally representative survey data that show um Terrone Foreman and Amanda Lewis, who are my advisors, um, but they, you know, they have some data that show that like in high school, there's you know, white a lot of white youth are expressing racial apathy, um, rather than some sort of like empathy or or concern or care. And Mama, Mama is

listening out there. Are you hearing this? I have goose bumps all over my body, like Mom's out there here daring this. There are teenagers with racial apathy. That is not what we want happening. Okay, So in review, while we close up, let's just go through again, because actions speak louder than words, actions that we can take. Let's

just review what we've already said. So, yeah, so I think that you know, parents who are in a position to be making choices about their children's you know, environment, whether it be there are stracurriculars their schools, where they live, the kinds of friends that they choose to have in their life. Um. You know, those kinds of choices are really are really important because they set up the world that kids then live in and are constantly interpreting ideas

from um. You know, parents decisions about like how do you respond when a relative is racist at Thanksgiving? Right? Those kinds of decisions also matter too because you're modeling something to your kids when you when you challenge someone in your family on on something. That's a great point that we have not yet talked about. That is excellent because modeling is big on Katie's grip, especially for little ones, like kids are just copycats of their parents in their

whole world, you know. So that's great. Um. And then I think the final thing gets at that concept of opportunity hoarding that I went that I mentioned. And if I could just tell you a really quick little story and I think is really compelling, so somebody I can talk to you forever. Um. So somebody that I know told me this person has a lot of status in their community, and um, their child was having trouble with the teacher at school. I don't know all the details.

And so the principle, you know, you kept having trouble, kept having trouble, And so the principle came to my friend and said, hey, you know what, why don't we just take take your kid out of that classroom. Obviously there's a problem with that teacher. Let's just take that kid out. I don't want you to be mad, like you're an important member of our community, blah blah. And so my friend in that moment said that he thought

about my book. I don't know if he might have just been like sucking up to me, but he said, like, no, if I take my kid out, then there's a whole other room of kids that still have that teacher and still have that problem, whatever that problem was. And so if I, like I could leverage my privilege in this moment to get at the root of the problem, so that all of the kids are, you know, benefiting, not

just my kid. And so I think that like those kinds of decisions, like you can't deny the fact that certain parents have more power in the school, like that is I'm not saying it's how it should be, but

I am saying that that's typically how it is. And so I think if you're if you find yourself in that position, it's really important to think about how you can advocate for not just your kid, but for you know, the common good and and everybody's kid, but not in a way that steps on the you know, like the

sort of like marginalized as parents, you know, parents of color. Um, there's a scholar and my friend, um Lynn Posey Maddox that talks about p t A s and how like, you know, white moms like take over the p t A and push everybody else to the side. You know. So I think that like there's so I don't want to be clear that there's like a you know, I think there's some nuance there. But I think the larger

point of like it's not just about your kids. Like if you want your kid to live in a more equal world, then you have to do things that benefit everybody everybody. And that's the type of kid you want to raise. I means the type of kid I want to raise. Yeah, oh gosh, I hope I can do it. Um Um. Maggie. Dr Margaret Hagerman, I am so honored and thrilled to be talking to you about this, and Um, I learned so much from your book, so Thank you so very much for coming on Katie's Crib. Well, thank

you so much for having me. I really enjoyed our conversation. Good as always, thanks for hanging out with us at Katie's Crib. Be sure to subscribe to the podcast, and if you've got a question or topic you'd like us to address, please email Katie's Ib at Shonda land dot com. You can also find us on Instagram and Twitter at Katie's Crib until next Time. Katie's Crib is a production

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