Timeouts and Tantrums

And this is a massive topic, as all you guys know, and there are no easy answers, is what it sounds like to me. UM. So I have three awesome guests here today, UM, who have different approaches for helping kids navigate all through their world safely. First, I want to welcome Dr Rebecca shreg Hershberg. I'm gonna just call you. Can I call you Rebecca or do we call you doctor? Can call me Dr sharg Hersberg at all time? No, Dr shragg Hershberg, Okay, So Rebecca. She is a child

psychologist and a mother herself. UM. She's also the author of an upcoming book called The Tantrum Survival Guide. There's such a part of me that's like, do I have to get that book? I'm gonna have to get that book, right, God, But isn't I'm just gonna have an angel who's never gonna have a dangrum. No, okay um. And she's also the founder of Little House Calls Psychological Services p LC. And then our next guest is Kristen Eliasburg. She is a RYE instructor and a mom and RYE stands for

Resources for Infant Edge Cars. Yes, edu caring was the word that Maga Gerber, who founded RYE, coined to describe what she feels we are doing as parents, which is educating through how we care for our children. Yes, and RYE has been really cool. I came to the RYE method because I nannied a family that I went to the babies classes RYE classes, and then I had a

baby and I've been taking them also with my son. Um. So, Kristen is a certified Right Associate as we said, and she's a mentor and she's the founder of Present Parenting where she teaches the RYE parent Infant Guidance classes. And then last, but definitely not least, we have the one, the only Lorie Gelman. God, more. She is a mom of two and she is the author of the book

that I'm currently reading called Class Mom. And as you guys all know listening to Katie's crib, I really rely on humor getting through this motherhood thing and this book provides so much of that in my life. So thank you Laurie for that my pleasure. So let's get started and talking about this. First of all, this word discipline, okay, uh? Is that even the right word to use? And you can have you guys can agree to disagree, like that's all fine. Yeah, what do you think, Rebecca, what do

you think the word discipline? I don't like or really use the word discipline. I frequently it's where I meet people to have these conversations because they come in with that word. But I think, um, I think it's much more. As you said in your introduction about how toddlers and young kids explore the world and helping them do that

and navigate that in a safe and nurturing way. I do think that limits are a very important part of that, helping kids figure out where are the boundaries, And I think knowing where their limits are helps them figure out who they are, who, what their relationships are. I think it's a really important part of social emotional development. Okay, so discipline is not a word that you're a fan of. I don't look young kids cook. I mean again, it's

not a it's not a trigger word for me. I'm not gonna be like, oh my gosh, I can't believe someone used that word. However, in my thinking and my writing, it's not It's not a word that I think is helpful in conceptualizing kids at this age and what they need and what they benefit from, and how we best help promote the behaviors we want to see. Sure, and what do you think, Kristen, Um, I would tend to agree. Um, I think. I actually was talking amongst some Raye colleagues

about this upcoming podcast. What they got to say, Well, Debra Solomon, who was the former executive director at RYE, had a really interesting take, which was to look at the root of the word, which is disciple, so that it's not that I think the word discipline, I think immediately conjures up this sort of like I am the authority and you are the being that must be chastised kind of It's like, guy, how do you scold somebody it's I mean, it rarely has a sort of very

positive connotation. On the other hand, disciple is more like, you know, we are modeling for our toddlers and young children and our older children, um, the behavior that we want to inspire. So you know, if you think of it that way, I mean, certainly limit setting is a is a better word to use, but it also kind of gives it a new another perspective on what we're doing, because it's really about our relationship with our children and

our connection with them. It's not about how we can get them to do certain things or how do we you know, scold them or punish them or you know, it's really inspiring the behavior that we want them to have. Love that what do you think, Well, I think I'm in way over my head. No you are not. You and I both were the moms, but we're the moms who were just like, call it what you want. It's it's basically forming your child and showing them the way and giving them the ideas of what they're going to

grow up with. And I you know, discipline, it's just a word really and and you know, my grandmother used to be like, where is my stick? And like that was we knew that was like we have a big trouble. So thank goodness, we don't do that anymore. But I think that no matter what you call it, it's just it's just molding the kids into what the human beings they should be. Sure, sure, Rebecca, look what do you add?

They so I'll be the year. So what do I have to look forward to in the next couple of years? Like what are the typical what's the common acting out at this age? Like what what are what do you see like when parents come with you, Like what are they freaking out about? So many things? Um, I mean I think God, I think typical quote unquote tantrums begin. They can begin as early as twelve months. But it also depends on how we define tantrums. And I certainly

talk about that. We all use that word kind of left and right. I think of tantrums, and I define tantrums as expressions of emotion that are perhaps not um well regulated. And a lot comes down to sort of where kids brains are at this stage, and they're prefrontal cortex, which is the part of the brain that plans and judges and can think about how they want to act

in certain ways is not at all developed. Um. There's a metaphor I love, which is that it's like an air Your toddlers are like airport traffic control centers without the traffic control like there like planes flying in and out,

no one knows. And and so you see kids that are really impulsive, that are really emotional, that are really egocentric, and a lot of times parents get really frustrated with those behaviors and expect that kids won't do them because they tell them not to do that, but their brains don't know how to do them and aren't capable of doing them. And that's I would say often a really based starting point for families is where is your kid developmentally?

So for example, hol be may um you know, you say, don't you know, don't throw that spoon, and so then he kind of hits you a little bit and it's sort of like, don't hit well, he's already he didn't think like, oh I'm angry at mom, so I'm gonna

hit her. It's impulsive, it's an emotional reaction. It's like saying to you you know, um, you know, Katie, go go And now I'm of course not under pressure I'm not going to whatever thing that you're really not capable of doing, you know, like go say a paragraph in Greek now, and you're going to be like, watch this, I didn't do it, But no, because it's you. Literally you can't do it and you're not capable of doing it, and so no matter how many times I tell you

to do it, you're not. When does rational thought, I guess that's when when does that come into play? Like when the mother of teenagers usually answer well, I'm still waiting, not by I mean full full rationality, but I don't think you can. You can rationalize with kids until they're at least and I'm not an expert on name, but for my kids it was, and it was the negotiating started maybe at four, where they could see the cause and effect and they could see the benefits of doing

it my way versus their way. And it depends on mood. It's all the mood depending. None of us can rationalize when we're hungry sometime excited or hungry and tired or or frustrated. You know, when when my husband tries to problem solve when I'm still like really ramped up, I can't hear that. You know, we it depends on kind of what is going on in all of our brains. What I will say is that executive functioning and that prefntal cortex has been shown not to be fully developed

until twenties. And that's why, Holy, I know, but it's why there's so much I mean, not to go off on a tangent. You can edit it out, but it's why there's so much debate about like how we treat adolescence in the criminal justice system, like their brains are not fully So we can leave that over here and talk about it on another podcast. No, that's very it's it's very helpful. So I mean in super I'm like, oh my god, I can't believe I had a child. Um um, so how do you go about setting limits?

Like I know what makes me unco I know I have a mommy instinct, gut right, Like I know there are certain family members I have that will go unnamed, that definitely have like shaken their kids in front of me in public when they acted out, and I was like, oh, that's not for me, you know, or like some more

old school way of disciplining or whatever. You know. My husband comes from a family that was like super old school and like he got spanked, and like my family is like so like hippie dippy, and like my I was never even grounded, Like every time I got in trouble, it ended up like okay, you can go to your

room and think about what you've done. And then my dad would come in and said it then in my bed and he would cry more than I would, you know what I mean, Like he would be hysterical about like, let's discuss maybe a better choice would have been X, Y or Z or whatever. But did that frustrate you at all? And were you at some point like just yell at me and get it over with it? Just do you know what I mean? Like I deserve it, give me, give me a punishment. I'm like, no, I

was perfect. No, I I was always one of those kids that it meant far more to me if I it was far worse to disappoint my parents than it was to get in trouble like I was, so like you know, just I I really you know if I disappointed my family like that felt shitty, Like that was an interaction right there, like you were probably temperamentally going to lean in that direction and then you had a dad that would respond in such a way that sure,

of course it was worse. And so I would say all those quis, I mean, there are, without a doubt some basic principles and I'm sure, but but I would say, without a doubt, it's about your individual kid and you as a parent and how that fits together. So it's different for every kid. But like, what about these I used to be I was a nanny for like fifteen years, right, and like some like I baby sat in a Rye household right where if a kid had a tantrum, it was very much a lot about I see that you're

very upset. I hear that you're upset, and I would be there for the child and just really go through it with them, and it was over in a few minutes, Like it wasn't that big of a deal and I wasn't trying to change the current thing. I also worked in households where time outs were like a big thing, you know, And I I don't know where I fall. I think I lean definitely more towards the Rye method,

but I know that my husband don't. Just to get back to your comment about well, why did I have a child, and get you onto the moment positive side of that question. You know, when you think about the upcoming years, when which will be full of limit testing and and and every day there will be more of it, and and you will often feel like you wish there weren't.

But when you think about it, if you just kind of flip the coin a little bit and think about, well, these are opportunities for us to build our connection because he's limits. He's testing those limits because he wants to have me set them. And by setting them, I'm giving him the example of how to behave in the world. How I can be the sort of commander of the ship, keep things safe for him, make his world, you know,

a functioning place, because I will set the limit. And I think Umlur is resolutely right that ye re gelman is Lorie is absolutely right that there are there are They're asking you to just say this is the limit, and you can't go any further, and I won't let you go any further. And that's what they want to hear, and that's what they need to hear. And by doing that, you are establishing again reconnecting with them. So I have to change it in my brain, to change it in

my brain. You're you know, we're not on different teams. You guys know, and you need to do You need to show the united front that is the same. They will sense they can smell a crack in the armor. So you always have a united front with the parents there. You meant that you and your kid were on the same team, and then you're seeing you in your I met you and your kid, I mean, because this is the same team. I mean the joyful parts of parenting,

we all know what those are. But you know, also the setting limits is almost more important and can you know in some way sort of deeply more joyful because you're being strong, You're meeting your child where he is. Like I use the metaphor often of like a fourteen year old doesn't have a curfew, who deep down wants a curfew, and that kid is going to show off to all his friends that he doesn't have a curfew, and that kid's going to in the moment be like,

this is freaking awesome. I get to stay out till three in the morning and like pizza, and then at three in the morning he's by himself, and it's like, I just wish my parents would step up and be the grown ups, and part of being the grown up is setting a limit, and it can be over time, really anxiety provoking for kids to feel like they hold

so much power in the equation that there. It's not to say that limits can't be nurturing and collaborating and whatever, but they also do need to know there's an overall structure in place that they're not so powerful that they can break, because that's terrifying as a four year old. If you think you're steering the shop at four, it's, over time, a pretty damaging place to live. I was raised by wolves. I mean I was the sixth child.

Oh my god, was literally I would I would come home from a three nights sleep out when I was in seventh grade, um like with the school, and I my mother forgot I was coming home and she didn't pick me up at the school. So I had to lug all my stuff home and I walk into the kids and she's like, oh, your home, did you have a good time? I mean, I hated that part of my life. I hate I loved the kids who you know, whose parents were always on them about this and that.

I envied those kids. And now when my daughters begged me not to go to their volleyball games or their cross games or whatever. I'm like, I don't give a ship what you want every single game because no one ever, no one ever came to my games. It would literally be oh did you win? Like nobody cared, and I want I don't want my either girl to ever feel like I don't care about what's going on in their life. That's so nice. So can you give me each of

you guys, like specific ways that adults said. I know it's different on the age, but like how you would set a limit, like is a time out of thing? Is it? Is it? Like? No, you can't do that? What about the word no? Like teach me what I'm supposed to or less? Um you're looking at read your book, read your book, read your books obviously. Um, I think that there's some bait. Okay, So when you talk about time outs and you talk about nurturing and being empathic,

I think we've talked about what we're talking about. Like if your child is having an emotional reaction to not getting another cookie, that is an emotional reaction that wouldn't ever marrit a time out by I mean, if we're talking about specifically tantrums, even people who use time outs. Timeouts are one of, let me just say, one of the most widely misunderstood and misapplied concepts of all time. And I'm happy to go through why if anybody's interested

in hearing that. I think they can be and have been shown over and over and over again to be very useful and effective if done in a very specific way and context. Um, they've gone off the rails, and then they've been misunderstood and then oh yeah, you mean like making the kids sit in like a naughty chair and counting down for a certain amount of time for

crying too loud, which is never what I mean. That's sort of it's meant to be like for a discreet behavior that you and your child have been able to decide upon in advance in a home with a lot of warm and love and time in all the time, a very quick taking away of attention for a very concrete period of time when that child gets bored because they can't do anything like that. That it's and it's We had that in my house. It was called the naughty chair. It was fucking hilarious. We loved it. We

had two chairs like you and your husband. No, my parents like they're you know, they were making it up on the spot. They were like five years old when they had us, and they just like really didn't know what they were doing and was probably yeah, oh, my dad's such an emotional being, like he's so open, and my mom is. Um, they were just both not great at the word discipline like they I mean, we had

curfews and all of that stuff. But um, you know, if we were really if it was if my brother and I were super mean to each other, was normally where we would get into big trouble. You know, like you can't say shut up to each other, you can't call each other stupid, you can't hit each other, you know, things like that. And when that would get out of control, it would say, okay, the two of you have to go sit in those shares and face the wall fall.

We would sit there for like four minutes, and then by the end of the four or five minutes would be hysterical laughing at each other and it would be over and sort of quelched. But um, I guess that was their equivalent of sort of a time out, like a break in the in the cycle. Little kids so much We talked about this a little bit before the mics were on um and and Chris and I think

you were here. Who setting kids up for success? I mean so much, I would say, is being able to anticipate on the front end what your child is like, what you are like, what are your hot button issues? Like you'll probably notice as Albi gets a little older there are things that he does that make you insane and your husband's sitting there like perfectly okay. Then he does something that you thought was funny, and your husband's about to lose his mind. And so it's figuring out

like who am I? Who am I with my partner? Who is my kid? Not in this dog, not in this like crazy shrinky like after take notes and understanding, but just myke you know my kid gets cranky at X time of day, Like if I bring a snack, I can avoid a lot of the you know, it's a lot of that kind of cutting it off of the past, like knowing that maybe your kids having a meltdown because you brought them to this thing so the

nap was skipped. So there we're setting them up for a total possible ship storm, right of course, And it can be something even from last week. You know, we had we had family in town for the whole week and everything was great and everyone was having fun, and all of a sudden, my my son is doing these strange things that he's never done before. And you won't behave in this you know the ways that he has

behaved before, and I wonder what that's about. It's like, oh, right, he's had to be on and be behaving list and he's had a completely different environment for the whole for the whole week, which and all of it was fine. You're like, well that went well, but you know he may be showing the signs of it a week later. That's really good to read. The book Mama, Mama, Lama, Lama, mad At Mama. Yeah, that's a brilliant book because it

really does. It makes so much sense. Like he was just about taking nap and then he had to wake up because he had to go, and so all these things are coming into play and he finally has a meltdown and the mother is trying to figure out why. But you know in the book they spelled out so beautifully, and I mean it's going to happen to every kid. There's no child that does not have a meltdown at some point, and there's no person like I had yesterday.

But I do think but that's important, Like we're human, you know, they are having emotions, and we hold them to a standard. You know when I often talk to parents like what are you like when you're hungry? And some parents are like, I'm fine, I'm a straight up asshole. Like I always say, kids only act the way adults would if it was socially acceptable. And I write something and I also someone I think it's really again, there are there are hard and fast principles, like I always

go back to love and connectedness and limits. There are quick and dirty tools, but any are iCal or anything that's like ten ways to make sure your kid never has a tantrum. Again, It's it's it's just not quite

that simple. You can have those ten tools in your toolbox, but you're never going to get away, to my mind, from the deeper work of figuring out how to anticipate your kids needs, how to figure out your own ship, and how to kind of look at the larger context of what's been happening in your family and your environment, and can you asked about some examples of disciplining. I think it's so age dependent because um once, I think we actually were discussing a little bit like when does

it start. I mean it can start with with a you know, a child who's old enough to sit on his own, but is is beginning to pull up, and it is continually pulling up on you, for example, and it's actually disciplining. And what I'm saying in quote and air quotes which you can't see, um that to to say, you know, I don't want you pulling up on me. You can pull up on the bookshelf, you or someplace safe whatever. Is doing that right now when he bites my nipple, Yeah, right, I don't want you to do that.

I feel like that's my first sort of like you know, and he looks up, moving the eye like like you know, we've been through it enough now to know that I don't like it, and he gets the boob taken away, like okay, well then that's your sign that like you're having a hard time. We're having a hard time, and we're not doing this and so you can chew on something else. Yeah, you guys, breastfeeding is very close to being done, and it's a very it's a consequence that

makes sense, which is always the way. It's not like, oh, this is a like you're gonna bite my nipple and therefore I'm going to take away your blanket like it's it's a very natural train of thought, like you're biting me that hurts, and so I'm going to take away this body part that you're hurting, which is how, as you said before, the world works, and I try to

explain it to him while and it's happened. I mean, I know again the rational thinking is like whatever, it's probably more for me to be honest than him, because you're just like your dad, just like my dad. You guys, oh, I am since I think you want to try to also just keep it short and sweet. You know that hurts me, and I'm so I'm not gonna let you do it. It's not like you don't get into it. Dies. Katie's crib is all about me, all about my selfish

need of figuring out how to do this. Well, so thank you, Okay, So I say, because I think as they get older as well, I think the temptation Laurie mentioned it is a sort of rationalize you know, well, you know, if you eat a lot of pizza. You'll start you might have a stomachache later, and then you know that's actually not very healthy food. And here's why, I mean, it's too much. It's just you know, you had one piece and that's all we said you were going to have. I always think of like what we

can do that keep it? Oh, I thought we were all like but also you know, I understand you want more. I know it's delicious, but we said that today we'd have one piece. So that's what we're doing with I always like, wow, so you can really talk yourself out like it's too much. It's too much. And also because you're them, God, guys, this is this is such a hot topic for me because I really I'm such a fluid like I'm going to have a very hard time like my again, kids aren't dogs, but we're gonna go

to my dog for a second. My dog is a terrible dog because I have no boundaries, no no limits. And I'm glad I learned on the dog to be honest, because I'm going to try to not sunk up my human child in that. What I'm hearing from you is that by setting limits and boundaries are saying maybe a short sense. That doesn't mean I love him any less or anything like that. It's like actually a very healthy

thing to set boundaries and limits in a loving, safe way. Yeah, And I think Rebecca brought up about the emotions, that that they cannot regulate their own emotions now and so that in these situations you want to acknowledge the emotions. I see how angry you are, and we're not gonna have a pizza and we're not Like I often have parents say like I either have to total line like no, you can have the pizza. I said, you can have the pizza, you know, or I have to give them

the pizza. And the fact is there's this whole gray area and queen of like, I'm not going to give you the pizza. But I totally get it because oftentimes kids are escalating because they feel like you don't understand how much I want a piece of pizza. So I'm not trying about the pizza. I'm just like for the law, and God, do you understand that this is a huge deal.

And as parents we do the opposite. We're like, it's pizza, you had it yesterday, you'll have it tomorrow, Like take it easy, but you know from your own life that never, I mean no one who ever says things like that to you. That never feels good. So you say, like you're really frustrated, you really want the pizza. I know pizza is delicious. Like, squeeze my hand as hard as you possibly can because we're not having another piece of pizza. Do you feel like you did this? I did all

this and that's it. That's true, because absolutely Mad and her kids are wonderful perfect, No they're not. But but I remember, I remember so often just sitting and saying, I get it, I understand how I know you want ice cream. I'm sorry I can't give it to you today, but we've had enough treats already and we can maybe have it tomorrow. But I'm really sorry, and I get I want ice cream too, but it's it's not going to happen today. And you say, and they really do

get it. It calms them down, It calms them down. But then there was one point I wish I remember. It was me shared Jamie and I said, I'm sorry, I I understand, I know you want that doll, but I just like that saying you understand I'm saying, right, Well, my my frind's been like, but you're in charge, you can get me ice cream, and I'm like, that is

an excellent point. However, doesn't stop saying how much you understand God, because once they actually get rational thinking, it's like, now we're dealing with negotiating and but some natural consequences. And like, I just want to say one more thing about the giving long explanations, because not only is it going but by a lot, especially if they're an emotion set, but it's also it's really feeding, like let's make this

this really big deal. Let's really connect on this, and particularly if you're a working mom, if you're a mom of more than one kid, if you like every mom and ning at the time I was on your phone. Well, no, it's not only that, it's that's suddenly becomes the behavior that gets that gets you. It's like, oh, mom is suddenly not paying attention to my brother and not paying attention to her phone and stopped cooking dinner and isn't emailing her colleagues because I am going nuts about wanting

more pizza. I think. So we're working for me, And so part of the short explanation is something like, guys,

you are blowing my mind all day to day. And then you can say, if you have that time and energy, right then I tell you we're not having more pizza now, but I'd love to go play legos and and so by all means give them that time and attention if in that moment you haven't, but don't make it contingent on their acting in this way that you're actually trying to Why is this ship you not to get into the show that they're going to want to see tomorrow too?

You know, why is this ship not taught? I don't understand, Like I feel like we would be making such better human like, like I just feel like I know so many parents that don't well. In my former job, I taught pediatricia because that those are the people that are actually interfacing with parents, and parents have these questions, and pediatricians actually don't learn, for example, about attachment in training to be a pediatrician. Yeah, now I'm going to get also,

no good please. In Canada for five years, I'm Canadian by birth, and it was freaking love Canadian. My best used to babysit justin Trudeau. How crazy is that he is? So? So anyway, I did a show called um the Mom Show in Canada, and it was. It was. Our studio was basically a playroom, a living room in a kitchen, and we had on every day a supernanny. Her name is Nanny Robina, and she was in the playroom with the kids. We'd have three moms, regular moms on with

their kids. The kids would be in the playroom. We had a pediatrician and we had a family therapist. Those were our experts and every day we would have three moms come in. They would talk about what was going through now and we'd have the expert's way in on it. It was such a great Have you sold this now? I tried to sell it to a network that shall not be named, and they said that parenting is too niche, so that they couldn't sell it. But like every I mean,

it's a big niche. Like it's a big niche and like very important because I feel like and it was by the way, it was unscripted. The kids could write, you know, but it would be cool because you could watch a kid have a tantrum, then you could see

how someone would maybe deal with it. And then if you're at home in your life, you could translated and use some of those tools, and the kids could, like we literally having us have our kids, they could just wander in and come and sit on your lap if they needed to, or they could be in the other room. It was very loose and it was It taught me so much about parenting. Yeah, because you're really good at it. Um,

So tell me about RYE a little bit too. I'm sorry we skipped over this, but can you explain because we're saying that word a lot and I think are and I'm a fan of it. So tell our listeners if you can. How would you explain the method? So um, One thing about RYE, which I should say right off the bat, is that it's impossible to do an elevator speech about it. Sorry, so thank you for asking. You're welcome. But um, I can tell you a number of things.

RYE is an approach to childcare which emphasizes how we connect with our children and having a relationship with them, not as if they are little adults, but recognizing that they are people and as as people, they need to be related to with respect and with um nurturing and also with firmness. So um, when we talk about respect, it's a it's a it's it's sometimes people are like respect babies, like what why? I don't get what you mean?

But and we and you see it every day how parents can often treat their they love their babies, but they don't always treat them with respect. And so you know, sort of dangling the baby, throwing the baby up in the air, maybe that's not what the baby wants. Did you did? Was that? Was there any thought put into that? Or just sort of picking the baby up, putting them on the changing table, doing the diaper change, putting them down and not telling them to what's going on is disrespectful.

And because they can they can't understand if you say I'm gonna pick you up now, you show them your hands, and you wait until you get some kind of recognition that they've that they heard you. You know, maybe they move slightly towards you, maybe they just make eye contact. You know, that's a respectful exchange. And you you you don't see as much of that as I wish. Yeah,

it's really truly like an amazing thing. So when what I said about discipline and that it's really not about it's not about how can I get my child to do this or get my child to to do that. It's really what kind of relationship do I want to have with my child and how do I want to influence what he or she becomes in the world, and how can I do that in a respectful way. So one of the examples that I gave the child sitting on your lap trying to pull up, Um, you recognize

that they have physical needs. It's same way that you recognize that they have these emotional needs when they become toddlers and they're overwhelmed by these giant emotions that they have. You recognize that. You acknowledge that I know you want to pull up. I see you have this need, but you can't do it in this fashion because that hurts me, or because it's not healthy, or because it's dangerous. But I will give you another way of doing it. So it kind of it's just a very different exchange from

don't do this or no, you can't do that. How would you guys, like, for example, like Ry, I go to the classes in l A. I love it. I know it. My husband has never been, my nan has never been. How do you guys make sure the this united front of caretakers to your baby are all on the same page. Like, you know, my kid is with

a nanny right now, I'm working mom. He's with her a lot, and I'm curious about how, you know, how do we form a good team to make sure that everyone, like I said it on the same page, and we're all understanding that when huge emotional swings happen or they're throwing themselves on the floor and kicking and screaming that they didn't get pizza, Like I know that, Like my nanny and I have a very different style, but even my husband and I to be honest or on different

you know, like you should have asked him on the so what do you think of what do you think about child? He's very like he has a much higher threshold for just like you know, so what he's crying, let him cry for a what like he's he's a much higher threshold for I guess being tougher is maybe the word you would use. Or he um, he didn't carry him for nine months. It's a whole different dynamic.

And also like with Rye stuff like he loves our sons so much and he's an incredible dad and he loves to smush on him and kiss him so much. And sometimes the baby audibly complains, and I'm like, the baby is communicating with you that he don't want that right now, Like he's like, but I don't care. He's my baby. I'm kissing him everywhere, and and the baby is like completely whining and complaining, and I'm like, the baby is like, get the funk out of my space.

And Adam, I like to say to him, how would you feel if someone was doing that to you? Doesn't really translate, but I'm trying. So how would you guys suggest getting people on the same page for people who are listening if they're don't line up exactly with their partner whoever they're raising the baby. Wow, that's a tough question and it comes up all the time in classes. UM,

and I think there, it's it's it's it's difficult. And I think you sometimes also have to choose your battles because you may not be able to be on the same page about every single interaction and that happens in your home. Um, I do think that the more your husband is able to in this case, I'm saying, yes, it can also be you know, a nanny or partner

or whatever. But the more they're able to observe how you interact with your child and and and the success of those interactions, the more they might become a little more willing to accept your method or to try out some of the things that you're doing. Um, I think you might also look at like, why is it that if if it take an example that the father is much more prone to be very, very stern, and it feels like the child is not getting enough quote unquote discipline,

you might also look at like, why is that? Is he thinking that what I'm doing is is too soft? Is it too soft? Um? You know what's needed for the child? And and and how can I not not just know I'm doing everything that's right, and you're need to change to what I'm doing? You know, maybe maybe there's a reason that he thinks that more sternness is needed. You know, maybe you're not being quite as you know quite, Maybe you're not setting as many limits as are needed,

or you're not being as firm and consistent about it. So, I mean, that's that's not necessarily the case, but that's something to It's interesting. I know everything, and I'm going to tell you how to do that, do it the right way or whatever way? That I feel is better. Um, but definitely I feel like the modeling can have a huge effect. I mean it's particularly like in laws. I've had people come into class and say, you know, my my in laws just thought I was insane doing this

wright thing. It's so different from what they grew up with. It's so different from what they did with their children. But they saw me, you know, they saw my child sit down and have a snack and sit on a stool when he's eighteen months old, and they were blown away.

I think it's also and I do this a lot with parents that I work with, UM, it can be a really beautiful conversation to say, what do we want him to look like when he's older, Like, what are the qualities that are most important to us as parents that are so for example, ball, I hear that a lot about affection and I've even brought in again not to go on a political bent, but like the met too movement, their body is their body and they are allowed to say no, don't touch me, and that starts

young and so like. But if you want that and you value that, how do we get there? And then that can be a collaborative conversation between parents, and there's a lot of science backing up different ways. So it would be like, Okay, I want my son or I want my daughter to be really confident and resilient. Okay, well, there's a lot of research showing that the best way to instill and promote confidence and resilience is with a

really connected early childhood relationship, meeting your kids needs. It's anti it's counterintuitive. A lot of people feel like, oh, I need to foster independence early on so they become independent. Actually, and I don't mean independent in like the healthy right way. I mean the like he needs to stop crying and buck up or whatever. Actually the opposite is true when the early years of life, like showing that you're there to help your kid and be there for them emotionally.

I it is what gives them right. So it's a lot of there are quote unquote some answers, not in a formulaic way of like do this get this? You know, it's not like you put your soda cam. But having parents think together about what kind of a family do we want, what kind of a kid do we want? And then what are some ways that we can get there together can be a really collaborative and cool conversation to have, particularly not in the moment of the thing.

And that's like, right when we're all calm, right, you can't be having this conversation whild exactly like sit and have dinner and again, you know, and just talk about in a fun way. I mean, it can be like a fun fantasy. And when my son goes to a therapist when he's sixteen, what do I want him to say about me? WHOA, yeah, that's great. What do you think Lorie? But yeah, like are you are you? And are you guys so united? Like I mean, have you been so united? And like we do believe in grounding.

We don't believe in grounding. This warrants you know, like we were a time out failing, you know what I mean? Like wo and if we if we are not are united front, we never show it, are we? We talked about it behind closed doors. It's key. They can never see the crack in the army. They can never They will They will be starting from very young. They will know that oh mom's the sucker and will say yes, and Dad will say now and and you know, and

they'll work it if they if they want so. Um, Michael and I have always tried really hard to stay on the same page. I always thought I would be like the the iron fist, and he was going to be the velvet glove, the pushover, and it's actually turned around to be the other way around. But for somehow, we we keep it calm. We don't fight in front of them, and we don't yell at them, and and that that's a controversial thing too. We keep a very

calm household. But the problem with a calm household, I don't know whether we've done them any favors, because now when somebody yells at them, they collapse. They don't know what is going on, because we honestly rarely, if ever raised of voices to them. We just always kept a calm like, look at this is what it's going to be. We're not gonna listen to it. I think that's great. Yeah, it is great, except that that, you know, the other day, No, it was actually not the other it was like years ago.

But I was like, damn it, Michael, I'm really blah blah blah, and and my daughter looking she said, stop screaming, and Daddy stop screaming, like screaming. They don't even know what whatever real and it has done them a bit of a disservice. But for the most part, they are calm kids. They walk into the world, you know, sort of in a with a very and they also know

that we love them. So when we do discipline them, you know, it's to the point now where my daughter says, yes, I know you love me, mom, Like I get it, I understand that you have to do this, but you still love me. Yes, that's great. So when they can

finish that sentence for you, then it's good. Yes, And I would just say that it's okay, I agree with you about the chink in the armor when it's sort of not a healthy discussion, but it's really also okay to say to your kid like I talked to daddy and I changed my mom, you know, or you know, daddy and I talked about this and now I actually feel a little bit different. Oh this is a huge question, Yeah that I want to say, like how much of it is like I said, like we're not going to

have the pizza. I've heard from other moms just as in life, like would you not go back on that like the minute you say or this type of thing. Okay, if you do that one more time. I'm just explained to you were going to leave the party. Okay. Um, I've said that we're not going to do whatever it is five times and on the sixth time, we're going to leave the party whatever it is. And I know a mom who I respect very well and her kids are awesome, and she was like, let me tell you something.

It only takes a couple of times, but you leave that party and they and they know that your word means something and they can't. Is that true? I think, I mean, I think there's two questions about consistency. So one is that yes, when you I mean leave the party thing, I would say, I see you're having a hard time being here. Too much is going on. We're to go home. I mean that's you know, you can't hit you, you hit your friend, We're going to go.

It's not so much like I'm going to threaten you and I'm gonna be five chances, because they'll take the five chances. Um. But I think Rebecca's point about changing your mind, you know, they're going to be times when you cannot hold the line because you're human. You have you know, the stresses of life in New York City or life in a rural town. I mean, you have a lot of stresses. So um, there's going to be the time where you say, you know what I thought

about it. We're gonna have another pizza today. We're gonna have another piece, you know, And it's not. It's not if you have established that you are the authority, and if you've established that you have this kind of relationship with your child where you do talk about these things and you do set limits, and you do recognize his emotions and his needs, then you go back on it one time, you go back on it, you know, five times in two months. It's not going to change that.

They know that you're the no. And I love that you say that, you say, I thought about it. It's giving them human Like wait a second, I'm this is what a human being does when they make a mistake or when they change their mind. In my book, because I get this question all the time, it's a personal example, and I just think it speaks to this because parents say to me all the time like exactly that question, Like you say, to be really consistent, but also that

I'm human and I can make mistakes. And I think your point is very well taken, which is that the point is your overall consistent and then you can But I Henry, who's my oldest who's turning five in March, when he was three, I remember he called me into his room at one point, like two in the morning, and he sort of knew that he could only call me and if it was an emergency. But the emergency

was that he wanted more ice in his water. And it's two in the morning and he called me out of bed and he asked for more ice in his water, this little freaking three year old, right, And I said, no, that's not an emergency. I'm not getting you ice in your water. That's insane. And he started to lose his mind. And what I was able to do, and I can't always do this, but I talked about it. I was able to just up for a second and take stock and be like, Okay, I'm exhausted. I have a big

day at work tomorrow. He's never done this before. I am taking a risk that if I go get him ice for his water, maybe tomorrow he'll wake up and want it again. And then it's just one choice point in time, like it's just it's not because parents get overwhelmed with like if I say no now, I mean if I say yes now, every night till he's fifteen, he's gonna wake it's like no, like right, like what's happening right now? And I ended up getting him ice for his water. You know, I went all the way

down stairs. I got him ice, and it was just the path of least resistance. But I said it out loud, not because at age three in the middle of the night he would understand, but as a way of starting to practice, I said, you know what, I changed my mind. I am going to get you ice for your water, and I'm gonna get you ice for your water because I really need to get back to sleep, and so do you. And I went down and I did it, and he didn't wake up the next night wanting it.

And if he had, then maybe I would take a different approach, like it's it's right. You can't you say he didn't understand and and maybe you know, the words weren't computing the way they would in our minds. But I think he probably sense you had to change in tone,

and that is that communicating. I agree, And again it's also just modeling, being thoughtful, as you said, and just practicing for when he's older and does realize and I am going to need to say you know what, Yeah I said this and I thought about it, and I'm chaking and actually you're curp you can and I'm changing my mind from my needs like that was an important like this actually is going to be about me right now.

I want to get back to sleep. And so that's why I'm what I parents, What do you guys think about when this ship goes down in public? Because like, yeah, like that's the stuff that like I'm I, you know, having a one year old. We talked about this a lot in the podcast about you know, hopefully finding a mom crew or friends that really you do truly feel supported by and not judged by, or you don't each others because as we all know this this mothering thing, women can be very harsh and it can be a

very unfortunately judgment filled space. Um and yeah, I can tell you are I can tell. But I feel like, as I move forward, I have this awesome group of moms.

We're all very close with babies at the same age, and I'm really curious to see how, you know, because we're already starting to split off with like I know, the moms who are like in the group who are like super fucking tough and hardcore, and I know the moms who are like super super lax and like you know what I mean, Like it's already like becoming clear

and where I'm falling in that line. But I'm curious when we're at each other's when your birthday party is coming up and or no, not one, but probably like two or three and like freak out start to happen, or babies need to leave the party because babies aren't having or the toddlers not having a You're not you're not enjoying yourself at this party, so it's time to go um Or the person who's like you get six chances is and then we're out of here, or the

mom who grabs that child by the arm very roughly. I mean, look like we've all seen these things, So like, what are your tips for public boundary setting, like with

your own tribe. I think the number one thing I say to go back to what we said, like, because this comes up all the time, is that's the most important time to be on the same team as your kid, because what I see all the time is parents who talk to me or I'll do an observation or whatever, and their kid will start melting down in the playground,

and their immediate alliance is to the other moms. So they'll immediately feel like embarrassed that their kid is, you know, and they're I'm sorry, sorry, no one can see me, you know, like they'll they'll look at the other moms and or on the on the grocery store line, you know, they'll their kids will start grabbing something and they'll look at the other customers. Oh, I'm you know, I'm sorry.

You know, he's not. You gotta just try to tune that stuff out as your first It's not that you can't eventually circle back and if your kid hit some old woman by only, but like you're it's like you go to your kid and again you're on your kids team. It's not I gave you six chances. It's like, this isn't working for you. I'm right here, Let's go outside and talk about it, let's figure it out, or um.

Because I think I've seen I've seen it in like a in a moment kids since when that connectedness is lost and if they're having a big emotional reaction like a tantrum in public. The number one thing that's going to make it amp up is sensing like where my mom go Like my mom is, but she's not actually with me. She's now suddenly best friends with that person she's never seen before. And I think we have to examine our own instincts about like why am I something

best friends with that woman? Who when my own kid? Who's more important to her? The kids that the other mothers at the playground, or your child of course, or even your friend who has a different approach. And then in the moment though it's just for whatever reason, it's so hard, that judgment thing is one of the hardest

things to deal with, I think. But but the remembering, you know, the relationship with your child is the most important, and then also remembering that it doesn't really matter in the scheme of things that your child had a meltdown. You know, in the serial Aisle Michael, Michael was taking Jamie across the street one day and she wouldn't hold his hand, and he's like, you have to hold my hand.

I'm walking an hold Ranet. She had a complete meltdown in the middle of the corner of four and bro and he just, I mean and literally people are walking, Gilman. I mean it's it's a very Piman like famous. Yeah, And I remember because I was there to what he did was he crouched down. You got to get down to their level because if you're just towering over them, yelling at the it's not gonna get down to their level.

I understand you're upset. This is a safety issue, like whatever is you have to say to get them to do this is unacceptable behavior, which lying down in the middle of the street is, and you know whatever. But the hardest thing you'll ever do as a parent is not lose it. I mean, you swallow so much rage sometimes when you just want to scream back, and it's the probably the worst thing you can do because if you're a screamer, they'll be a screamer and then that's

the relationship. But if you can just tamp it down, walk away for ten seconds, make sure they're safe, but just you know, take it, take ten breaths, because sometimes that's as many as it you need um come back. It'll it'll make for a happier environment in general. And sometimes you're not going to be able to do that, and you're going to scream at your kid and say something you regret, and the idea of rupture and repair like you go back and you will say I'm sorry.

You say I'm sorry a lot. We were on eighty four and Broadway, which is, by the way, where my grandparents used to I grew up on eighty first and Broadway. But you know, we're on eighty four and Broadway, and I just I got really impatient and I lost my mind. And I'm sorry that I, you know, use the F word and I yanked you. I don't do that a lot. And at the same time, I can't lie down on the street, and so let's go have an ice cream.

And I think also a part of your question that has to do with just friends and your real moms and group you know, other parents that you interact with. And I think, but again it's the most important thing is you stay close to your child, and your child can understand. You know, Jim's house is different from my house. This is how Jim's mom behaves, or even just you know that mom at the playground. It's like, I don't think that she wants you to play with you know,

Johnny's truck. You know in our house, you know, you would be able to do that. You would be able to play with your friend's toys, but she doesn't really want you to, so let's go to the sandbox or you know. Yeah, the house that you're allowed to watch Pretty Woman at when you're twelve is like the house that every kid wants to have a sleepover at, you

know what I mean, Like, well I didn't, I didn't. Yeah, that's a that's a whole lot of boundaries, and it's like begging for someone parents to say no, this is an inappropriate movie for you. You know you you know, they think that they're the cool kid, but they really would love it if somebody told them. You know, that is huge to hear. That is huge to hear. My

relationship is with my child. You know, that's the most valued in my life, and like the one that I have to Yeah, like practice, prioritize and practice the methods that feel the best for us, no matter where we are or who's looking. Um, this is so helpful. I feel like we've been talking forever and it is nowhere near enough. Can we just go around really quick and say I don't know any words of wisdom or like a quick advice you have for anyone embarking on this

journey of parenthood. I mean, I feel like we touched on some real fucking gems. But if there's anything you guys forgot or feel like you didn't get in, I mean again, there this is endless, but something to maybe remember put in the back of their pocket. Hang on, let me get my notes out. I love that we're on the same team. I love that we're I think love and limits I talk about all the time, Like just when in doubt, go back to like how does the love thing feel in my home? Not like do

I love my kid? But are we showing it? Are we connecting? If I'm super super busy all the time, can I leave my kids and post its? Can I tell them at night when I kissed them good night, you know, three specific times of day that I thought about them and in what way? And then how am I doing on limits? How am I doing on modeling

the behavior I want? You know? And just as a general like quick and dirty guide, as you said back pocket, when your kid is acting in ways that you're not loving and you see it trending over time, um, let me go back to love, let me go back to limits.

And then, like we said, in the beginning, let me go back to what's happening in the whole system, because you had that great point christ and about there were family in town last week, you know, like, let me let me go back to see a big picture, bigger picture than I might be in and figure out kind of what may be going on for my kids. And Gloria, I was just looking at my notes into something I've

said before. You need to listen to your child. Make sure you're listening to them and listening to them with clear ears and not with an agenda of any kind. Um. It's so important they are trying to communicate to you in any way they can. And a lot of the tantrums come because of the frustration that you're not getting what they're trying to explain to you. So listen to your child, Listen, Listen, listen, listen, listen. So we have listened.

We have love, and we have limits. And so I'm just going to add an r which relationship that when you're parenting, you're building the relationship that you want to have with this being for the rest of their life. Um. And and that's I mean, that's maybe just a sort of cosmic sound. No it's but if you really go back to thinking like, well, what kind of relationship do I want to have with this being? And how can I achieve that? Oh, you guys, this makes me feel

so much better. I really this was so hopeful and and I think the three of you are so remarkable and I really appreciate you guys taking the time to be on Katie's Crib. Thank you so much, thank you, thank you ladies, thank you, thank you guys so much

for listening to Katie's Crib. And be sure to check out Shonda land dot com where you can find every episode of Katie's Crib and we've got crib notes for each episode where you can find out more about our guests and links to some of the resources we talked about on the podcast. And last, but not least, subscribe. We're on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher basically like wherever you get your podcasts. Yet I want to watch what I want, you want