This is Motherly w/ Jill Koziol

Welcome back to Katie's Crib. I don't think I've ever seen more is the word memes. When you keep looking on Instagram and you see quotes that moms repost a lot, you will see that a lot of them are from Motherly, a lot of them. And I have on Katie's Crib today the person behind Motherly and behind those brilliant self affirming, life affirming, mama affirming um quotes and phrases and things that I see and I'm always like, holy crup, that's

so right on, and they're always by Motherly. UM. To know a little bit about Jill cozi Il, she is, like I said, the co founder and CEO of Motherly, which if you don't know, let me tell you. It's a well being destination, empowering mothers to thrive with incredibly expert content, innovative product solutions, and a supportive community which

we all need. We cannot do this alone. Motherly engages an audience of forty million plus readers and viewers a month with on demand parent education classes, Webby Award winning videos, the Motherly Podcast, essays, articles, and a highly engaged social media community. That's what I'm talking about with all those posts.

So good. Jill is also the co author of The Motherly Guide to Becoming Mama, Redefining the Pregnancy, Birth, and Postpartum Journey and This is Motherhood, a motherly collection of reflections and practices. Jill is passionate about serving and empowering women and mothers because when momas are successful, everyone wins. She is an advocate for families, female founders, and how to thrive with multiple sclerosis. Jill lives in Park City, Utah,

with her husband and her two daughters. Jill, Welcome to Katie's crib. Hi Jill, Hi, Katie, thank you so much for taking the time. I'm so excited to be talking to you today. So let's start here, did you always want to be a career working mom? Oh wow? Well, first, thank you so much for having me, and great question. Um, I had a lot of different models. You know, if

you see it, you can be it. I had a lot of different models in my life, stay at home moms, part time working moms, of of entrepreneuring women, and I, yeah, I think I did. I My father was an entrepreneur, and I think I always saw myself with the vision of contributing beyond my own small world in a bigger way. I already described it a little bit, but let's hear it in your words. What is motherly and how did

you and Liz develop it? So we'll start with how we developed it, because we developed motherly because it didn't exist and we needed it. We were millennial mothers. We are millennial mothers, and we felt as though media and the world were treating motherhood as almost cartoonish um and really building and creating these mommy wars that just didn't

really reflect our lived experiences. We looked around us and saw women that were becoming mothers that were incredibly educated, incredibly supportive, kind of a you do you generation, and we found that as digital natives. What was out there in the world, UM when we became moms you know, ten years ago, just didn't really align with our expectations. And so we launched Motherly really to be a next generation brand UM that that showed women that motherhood could

be an opportunity to nurture not lose yourself. And so we launched Motherly as woman centered, not baby centered, to be evidence based, an expert driven, not user generated content, which sadly can often be a race to race to the bottom or a last And we also launched it to be empowering and non judgmental and not scary. UM. And so Motherly is a well being destination, as you said, that is for our forty million plus moms that kind of gathered together too to find a way to live

their best life as women and as mothers. And what does Motherly offer for its forty million participants. So we are a destination and a hub of content around motherhood from planning a pregnancy through elementary and we're kind of growing with the millennial generation and meeting her where they're at. So I've got elementary age children myself, they're you know,

we're kind of moving into that space UM. We provide expert content UM guides shop from everything from shopping guides on tested and reviewed products to also like the how twos of things like from a sleep progression to weaning from breastpeing and all in very empowering ways. We also have just like millions and millions of views on video UM and so video is a really big place for us as well. Social media very large on Facebook, Instagram,

growing on TikTok. Now look at you, I know, trying trying to keep up with everyone, uy me myself getting a little bit older, but need to get yet. We have the Motherly podcast, we have books, and we've just launched a digital education platform. So we are the place to go as a hub for digital online classes from parenting, Wow, what kind of classes are you going to offer? Tell

us a little bit about this. Well everything, So we stand really tall and in that kind of pregnancy and new mom space and we've got lots of classes around that. Like basically, you know they always say motherhood doesn't come

with the guide, Well now it does. You've got mother So we're there for everything from hypno birth thing and um, you know, trying to conceive UM two then sleep classes and breastfeeding classes and birth classes and the such, and then we're also doing classes around you know, how to raise capable adults, conscious and mindful parenting. UM. Leaning into Grandparents one oh one is a class that we're developing right now to like give your grand to be grandparents

to take about what's changed since they were parents. Um. WHOA, that's brilliant. I don't think any that definitely, I've never heard of that before. That's brilliant. Well, we're so committed and obsessed to knowing what our user and audience wants, and like I'm running a business run four moms by moms, so we've got a great cadre of ideas every day

of what we need. Um. And again, if mothers are you know, great innovators now actual innovators, and so we just find a problem in a gap in the market and we're here to fill it. This is a big question that we've talked a lot about on this podcast, and I would love to hear you speak on it. Why did COVID nineteen just break open the impossible way in which mothers can effectively be in the workforce? Very

big load of question. Um, something that we have been really looking at for the last couple of years and living through and carrying this with our team of working mothers as well as our entire audience. We have this year released our fifth annual State of Motherhood Survey results and it's the largest statistically significant study on moms. And so um we wait everything to the US Census data.

Like so we we pull together this data to give voice to who this woman is into the struggles and we've so we have data now from the last you know, two plus years on COVID specifically and how it's changed. And this is what I have found. This is a

mix of quind of qualitative and quantitative data. What I believe is that this generation, today's modern parents, have been trying to parent and create families that look a lot different than what we were raised And and kudos to us for trying to do that and defined trying to create and be intentional about creating families where mothers can be in the workforce and can work and don't have to sacrifice having a family to do it. And so I think you find partners that are much more engaged

these days than in the past. And I think we've we've made a lot of progress towards that, but but it's outside of everyone's comfort zone. Then COVID comes along, and what we get with COVID is this thing that throws everyone outside of their comfort zone even more. And when you're faced with the crisis, you try to go back to what's comfortable, what worked, what have I seen

in the past. And I think what we found is that mothers were disproportionately impacted by COVID because all of that effort towards trying to create a different type of family got put on the back burner. All this progress got put back and we went back to default parenting expectations, which is, you know, the man's out in the workforce working and the mom's taking home. We went back to what felt comfortable, and it has set us back. Sometimes in my negative moments, it feels like it's set us

back a generation. Frankly, when you look at the Great Resignation, it is not a surprise that the Great Resignation happened when schools were supposed to start back up and didn't. When you lose the backstop of government support for things like this, mothers are the ones that carry that unequal burden. Oh my god, it makes me, honestly, like I feel emotional about it, Like I'm just like you should we

need to be angry. It's so setting uh as running Motherly, I mean, I find it can be really hard to practice what you preach. I really do, like I a lot and oftentimes think that this podcast is the greatest gift. And then sometimes I'm like, I know exactly what I should be doing in this parenting moment, and watch me not do it? Do you know what I mean? Like? How do you manage it all? How do you manage motherly being a mother of two? Also you're living with MS?

Like how I mean, We're gonna get into that later, but how do you manage being a working mother in a pandemic world? So loaded loaded question. We can spend an entire episode probably talking about that. UM. I think it's important to note that, just like parenting evolves and changes as your children age and you enter these different stages, like just when you think you've got it figured out, you don't write, things change. For me, being a working

mother has been that way too. When we first launched Motherly, before we had any funding or any staff, like it

was working without childcare during nap times like very young children. Um, and on weekends you know, with a supportive partner, supportive husband who would take them on saturdays, and I would like power through and now and it has evolved and change, you know through the years with Motherly, where we have a staff now that create you know, helps facilitate enable me to have better integration in my work, work in life. And um, now like we've got to no pair, I

who just started on Friday. Um, this is a new phase for us. Our kids are going to be going a bit further away for school and we need additional like we need driver's support at this point to make it work. And so um, it's our childcare evolving and changing. It's frankly as my means, as our family have improved, you know, outsourcing things like this is there's privilege involved in this, for sure. There's the fact that I have healthy meals delivered as an example, UM, and I do

have the O pair. We have a home that can facilitate that and have someone live with us for it. But it also it's it's hard, no matter what, It's very hard. Motherly is not a personality driven brand because I don't want people thinking I think I'm the perfect parent. Uh, that is definitely not the case. Like I'm reading and learning from motherly and our experts every single day also and um, just like everyone else, Like I'm kind of making it up as I go along to how keeping

it personal at the moment. Is this the first time you've ever had live in care? Um? I know you said, it's sort of organically shifted from when you were doing everything when they were little little and fitting in being a working mother during naps and during weekends, which I have a ton of friends that do that, and my god, um, it's insane, it's really insane. Um, and doing work, like you get the kids down at seven, eight o'clock at night and then you're working from till eleven thirty and

then you're up at six doing it all over again. Um, I'm getting PTSD reminding me. Yeah, you know, it's funny. I remember when my brother got My brother is a very very very involved dad and even still his wife

got COVID and had to quarantine. This was in the beginning arantine somewhere else and they had a very young baby and he was getting up at four am, working from four to seven on his work, being with her from seven to ten, she'd take her first nap, then he would do work like he was and he was like, that was the hardest week of my life. Like he was like existing on fort I was like, that's what moms do it. It's fucked up. It is so fucked up. So how's your mom guilt? Talk to me about that, Jill.

It's it's real. Um. So well, and one thing you men, you mentioned COVID And I didn't answer that first part of that other question, but I moved and moved my whole family because of COVID. Schools were going to be closed in California, and my husband and I, who was also a very you know, stressed out business person, UM was like, this is not going to work for our family. Were far from family. We need these kids in school,

Like this does not work. And that is where I started to really feel a lot of mom guilt then, because I wasn't showing up as my best self right. I mean, we had a we had a white board where we were outlining what things I needed to do my husband I need to do for our our own physical selves, for our family, for a household, and for work. And we were putting showering on like to make sure we did those things at that time, and it just

we were not showing up as our best selves. I was, you know, I had a kindergartener at the time who could not do the zooms and do all of that on our own. It was insanity. And so we we like a boarded ship. I mean, we literally got in a car and drove to Park City, Utah, because we heard the schools were going to be open, and we thought we were only going to stay here for four months, because you know, we thought the world would return to normal, and it didn't. And we ended up buying a house.

And so I've in a place that I had never known about our moved into before. And so I feel guilt because I like ripped my family out of like their home right to make this work during COVID. But I also again that concept of mom guilt. Like I'm Catholic too, so like I get I get the guilt, right, yeah, yeah,

but it doesn't serve anyone honestly. And so I am constantly like my children asked me about working, and they're old enough now they're eight in ten, they understand that, like I am doing something that I enjoy doing because I think it's important they see that moms enjoy work, that I enjoy what I'm doing, that it is contributing to our family. Um, I'm blessed that it's serving the world in a bigger way, like they're proud of me,

um and I and I think that helps. But I'm also always open to the fact that, like, we can change how we're doing this. We're not setting our ways, And I think COVID has kind of taught us that, like the whole world can change in an instant. And so if something's not working and not serving my family, were making me feel guilty, like I will find a way to shift. Didn't change. Great. You were included in a documentary releaser by the E W Scripts Company earlier

this year. The documentary titled Motherhood in America is all about moms and it acknowledges all the work mothers do and the challenges they face. And you mentioned in the documentary that family planning is on the top of your agenda and that you really you actually did, really want to do it by yourself. Is that true? Yeah, I mean we've been taught as women to try to do it all ourselves, um, and so in the very beginning, I mean, I when we first had our daughter, our

first daughter, Claire, I remember, I was adamant. I didn't want people visiting us the first two weeks. I wanted, like me and my husband to do it a bubble. Yeah, I wanted like a little bubble for us to figure it out. And I, you know, I didn't want childcare help. I didn't want to help with like housekeeping. Like I felt this like sense of like identity, like this need to do every single thing myself. And it, I mean,

it nearly killed me. I mean that was impossible, especially when I went back to work sooner than you know, like most American women, UM, sooner than my body and like my emotions were ready for me. And it nearly killed me. And I remember talking to my mother in law, who is a dentist and has always had elither had her own practice or worked and she sees that I'm okay asking for help and and frankly demanding that we

have help in our family. And she says that she's almost like, not in a negative way, but like envious of the fact that I have come to terms with the fact that I can't do it all. Finally it took years uh in my MS diagnosis, but that it come to terms of like I'm okay accepting the help because as a woman, you know, raising children in the eighties, like she didn't have that. She didn't have she couldn't

give herself that permission. And she sees like, how much more present I can be with my children because I'm not scrubbing the floor at the same time, right, Like I'm able to find Again, there's privilege involved in that, but like we trade off other things, right, Like right, I prioritize those things so that I can make it work for both my mental and physical health. M hm um.

What were some of the moments in your life where you recognized at someone else could do something faster, cheaper better. For example, like you said, maybe you need help cleaning your house, Maybe you need help you know as a driver, Like that's something that like you can outsource that might actually make it so that you can earn more money in that time. Uh, in another way, can you give

me some examples of moments like that. It was definitely Motherly as we started to scaling grow and realizing that I had to hire people at Motherly to do more things right. Like that was the starting point for me that made me realize that, like, maybe I can do this thing, but I'm not the only person that can do this thing, and by me trying to do all the things, I'm actually holding back this business and our potential, right.

And so I started getting more comfortable hiring people for Motherly, and then I started realizing, oh, whoa, that person can do that better than I did it, right, And so I got past that mental block of it, and then I started realizing I started understanding what it was like to scale right. And then I said, well, if I can scale in my business life, then I can probably

scale and better optimize in my personal life too. And it was definitely a really important moment when we raised our first outside funding, so Motherly's venture backed, which means we have investors. This is um so we're meant to be a high growth company. And you can't do that if you're constantly distracted by the mental list of things that you need to be doing for your home and

your household too. And so I knew that I was going to let those investors down and that frankly, I had a fiduciary responsibility um to find a way to make this work better. It reminds me Carrie Washington, who's one of my dear dear friends. You know, she's such a titan in in all in all ways, but she's you know, such so career driven, an excellent mother of three, she you know, runs businesses as a production company, a million things going on. And she used to say to me,

if you're always just maintaining, you'll never be able to grow. Absolutely, And so if you just spend your days in reaction to everything going on, whether that's in the with the kids or in your business, you'll never be able to like have the brain space to actually do something better or figure out what it is exactly that you want.

And it's and it's releasing yourself from these self limiting models that you have of who and what you are right and and again this gets back to like I do think our generation has been trying to be very intentional about creating a different type of family and dynamic then maybe we were raised in and I am just I think that's such an amazing thing. But it takes intentionality, and it's uncomfortable, and it is um it's always like, you know, two steps forward, one step back right and

making those kinds of changes. But you have to break things apart and go outside of what feels comfortable in order to have that growth. Is being a mom harder or easier than you imagine. New motherhood was so much harder. I don't know what I was thinking. Um, I, I know, you really don't know until you get there, right. I'm convinced every person is like, I think I'll be okay, Like I think I'll be okay, and then you get there and you're like, I am not okay. Oh I didn't.

I did not appreciate the physicality of motherhood. Breastfeeding was incredibly hard for me, And then I had all that guilt around, like you know, switching to formula, and now I'm piste off that I understand so much more about formula that there weren't better choices in formula than um. But like I had, I had no idea how my body was going to be rocked, and that it wasn't just this like postpartum period, that it was really like reclaiming My body took really really long time to feel

like it was my own. And I mean there are still times with an eight and ten year old that I'm like, mommy needs a little personal space, Like I need you a little further away from me right now because I'm feeling touched out. Oh yeah, I said that to my son this morning. He kept like I was having conversations with other people and he kept grabbing my face to look at him and pay attention to him. And I just got my period today, so I'm like super sensitive to touch. It's like, I'm just like, please

do not touch my body unless you have asked permission first. Also, please use your words, say excuse me, and then be patient to wait until I say yes, I hear you. Give me a moment, you know, give me a moment. And I was like so touched out this morning, I couldn't handle it. So things like that that are so much harder. There are other things like having a second child. It was so much easier to love a second child.

I agree. I'm I had a very similar experience, Like I did not have the like I feel bad about having a second kid, or am I going to have enough room in my heart for a second kid? Yeah, I know that all was seamless for me to Thank God. Yeah, thank goodness, I mean we all again it's a lot of times I think of it like as a CEO, I you know, have to worry about technology and we're a digital based company. And I always tell my tech team they'll laugh if they listen to this, that like

I know enough to be dangerous. So the things that I think are easy to do from a tech perspective are actually really fucking hard. And the things that I think are hard, they're like, we can do that in thirty seconds. And that's how parenting, I think is, Like my expectations are often very very off, and I'm starting to learn that bigger kids, bigger problems. Um, the physicality is a lot less now they're older. But I think, you know, I'm entering I've got two daughters, Like I'm

entering into like between and team stage. So like pray for me. Yeah, you're yeah, bigger problems in the mental health, you're in a different phase. Oh my god, I'm terrifying exactly. You mentioned on your motherly website, which is incredible. Everybody listening, go to the motherly website. Thank you so much. That you were diagnosed with multiple sclerosis three months after launching Motherly. How tell me about your mental health space after receiving

the news. Oh, that would be the low point of life, I have to say. UM, So I developed optic naritis, which is the most common time way of getting of starting to experience ms UM, which is almost like you have like a bug screen over like a bug screen over your eyes. So I could still see, but they were like it wasn't and it was clear, but there

were like black spots in it almost right. And that was weird because I was thirty five, which, by the way, happens to be the average age of onset of multiple scrosis for women. And so the good news is when you get optic naritis or any kind of weird I thing in your thirty five, like the automatri sees you immediately and so UM, I was actually diagnosed very quickly. UM. Some people it takes decades to get diagnosed, and so

I was diagnosed within ten days of onset of symptoms. UM. And that was a combination of being able to advocate for myself and feeling entitled to advocate for myself, having an excellent network, having great health insurance, and like being an area in the Bay Area with like Stanford and UCSF and great access to care and had any of those things not been true, it could have taken me

a lot longer. So in equity and healthcare is like a whole another topic for a podcast, but yeah, we've done them and it's dismal and so so I was diagnosed very quickly. But yeah, it was three months after launching Motherly and like launching out with like from Google headquarters in New York and you know, the eyes on us and like wanting to scale and had worked so

hard to launch this thing, and I was floored. I mean, it's one of the few times I've been brought to my knees in my life because I found out that like, not only did I have this problem, but I had actually had seven or eight asians in my brain, which are like things. Only one was active at the time, but those are like scars on your brain from having had, you know, episodes of some sort along the way. And

I had to look. I had to make really hard decisions really fast, and including one which was to start a really aggressive medicine that would stop MS and it's in its tracks, which it did. But I also had to decide that we were done having children because it's known to um have birth defects and I, I mean, we made that hard family choice for ourselves and it was the best choice. UM. And but yeah, then I was doing you know, Ahmed every month with my team on.

You know, I'd be at the hospital for an outpatient, but be at the hospital for the infusion that I would do every month, and like while there and you know, i'd be find at the beginning of it and by the ends like they'd see my head kind of oh my gosh. And just but like I couldn't stop. I mean, if you ask Liz, I don't think I took a full day off the whole time, because we just couldn't UM. And I'm a woman and a mom. I just kept powering on UM. But then later I started to learn

that this was kind of a wake up call. Like the MS wasn't caused by my stress right or anything related to that, but it was certainly the wake up call that I needed to find better balance in my life and to find tools that could help me create space so that I really could prioritize my health and show up best as the CEO of Motherly but also

as the CEO of my family. Mm hmm. I know that self care is very very important, um in terms of like like walking when it's too hot out, like like a lot of things Like that's such a stupid example, but just meaning to say, you really have to reevaluate your life, um and make it so that you stay healthy. Um. How tell me about reevaluating things like that and how

that affected your career and your family dynamics. So because I was diagnosed so quickly and my first flare like real flair that impacted my life was able to kind of revert back, I have what's called remitting relapsing. It remitted, it came back, I mean it went away and it's never come back for me because of the meds that I'm on and I'm on Oak Purvis now, um so it's a different med but switched over to that and it's like the most widely used and just it's a

game changer for people. Um. And because of that, I have zero symptoms, like zero symptoms um from it. Again, everyone's lived experiences differently with MS, so I've been very very lucky with that, and but it's still taught me, Like I exercise. I remember my doctor said, most people you know say, oh, I want to exercise, like three to five times a week, like that's what it takes to be healthy. And he's like, for you, you need

to think to yourself, five is my minimum? Because MS is it can be a layering disease, right, and so as I age, we don't want something else to get layered on, like with obesity or diabetes or some other health related issue. He's like, you need to be as healthy as you possibly can so that if for some reason the MS starts to come back, you're not layering in on top of other things. Wow wow, wow wow, But what a gift is that? Yeah, No, you're like you're not. Look, we should all be working out or

taking care of our physical bodies. But you know that very deeply right now. Well, I had a doctor actually like write me a prescription for it in a way, right and tell you like you have to do it. And it was so scared at that time of MS and of like of of becoming the stabilitated person, which is what you see right um, and that I was like, okay,

got it, Like I will do. So it's eating whole foods, not processed foods, not a lot of sugar, working out and finding space for like mindfulness and meditation shin too, right, like to clear that space for myself, and that last one is the hardest. But I've meditated every day this week, UM, which is doing good. Well done on you, Jill. I've sat down to start every day and then my son comes in and I'm like, Okay, how did Motherly and

your family support you through the diagnosis? I mean, Liz Tentedy is my co founder and she is the end of my yang. UM. We became so close through Motherly as a whole, like no one else in the world knows what it means to be a co founder of Motherly but her right, and so this really intense relationship for through the ups and downs of startup life UM and through MS and UM she was has always been

incredibly supportive and UM and the whole team too. In the early days, you know, Katie, I I was nervous to tell our investors because of the stigma attached to MS. I mean, it's a neurological disease, right, and I'm a there's so few women in venture backed businesses running venture backed businesses, and even fewer mothers doing it. I didn't want to give any reason why, you know that could hold me back in some way or why they shouldn't invest.

And so you know, I met with our attorneys and they said, look like this is you have doctors saying it's not holding you back. You don't have to tell them. So I waited a little while to really share that diagnosed until diagnosis until I felt like motherly was strong enough on its own right. Um, and that was hard, but I had the support of my team, and I had the support, and ultimately I learned I have the support of my investors too, which is wonderful. And then

on the family side, Um, my husband is amazing. Pete, m y, Pete. He's he's a really he's a true partner. Um he I will say, and he would acknowledge this, Like it is very uncomfortable in our family when I am weak for whatever reason. Like he's so used to me being strong and solid and like the rock that everyone else can lean on. That when there are moments when I show weakness, like it sets the family off kilter.

But like and and he has a hard time initially responding, but like when I am there, standing there in that weakness and he can like really internalize that he's there, he shows up and he carries the load when he needs to, um, which is wonderful. UM. And then also you know it's also girlfriends, right, like I mean women

like I have a friend. UM. I had a really hard time going to the first I went to an m S walk after I was first diagnosed, and like trying to internalize and process the fact that I had a disease that required a walk right to fundraise for it and of course and I was so traumatized seeing the people and like the disabilities that came from it later and um, and I was really not looking forward to it the next year. It was felt like the survivor guilt of sorts that that wasn't sure for me.

And I had a dear friend Evan who told me, gave me permission. She's like, Jill, this is not your story, Like you don't have to go and do that, right, like, you choose what is your story and this and it doesn't have to be what you There's no should are supposed to use right, So friends, family, and thank you pete. UM. Can you give us some examples of when you pushed like past guild, whether it's work guild or family guild, and you prioritize self care instead. How do you make

those calls? How do you How did you meditate every day this week? So this is a new one. Okay. I took a transcendental um um transcendent meditation of course a couple of years ago when things were like not going well with motherly and like I was not sleeping and like there was this like stress cycle kind of

happening then, and I sleep was so critical. So I took the course then and then I've been horrible at following up on it, and so um I, for whatever reason, I just felt like now is the time to come back to that practice, and so um I have just woken up. I'm not doing the whole thing right now. I'm not being a good like practice m practicer, but woke up ten minutes earlier than I normally do, and

I sat up and I meditated, um just for ten minutes. Hey, that's fucking to you and not And you know what, no one even knew because it was ten minutes earlier, right Like, so no one in the family, no one was running in to wake me up. That's gonna happen like tomorrow, now that I've said this, um so there's that,

but the guilt side of it, you know. I mean every day today I had a call starting at eight am, and I had a workout class at eight thirty, and um, I talked to my Cheetah staff while I'm driving there and like it's summer, the kids are, you know, home from you know, camp doesn't start till later, and so it's not part of like the normal routine. And I was like, Daddy's gonna take you to camp today, Like I'm doing this and this is where like the clawing a like no, mommy, what are you gonna pick us?

Are you going to pick us up? Like, no, the pair is gonna come pick you up today, And like there are times in my life where I probably would have been like okay, like I'll stay, and maybe when they were younger, maybe like I'll stay, like my workout doesn't need to happen. That's me. Damn it no, Like yeah,

damn it no. Yes. And I think I feel a responsibility too because I'm raising daughters that I want to raise daughters that understand self care that I model it for now because I want them to have a healthy relationship and I don't I want it to feel like organic for them. I don't want it to have to be like hard in the way that it is for us, right, And so I kind of feel like I wipe away a little bit of guilt because I tell myself that

I'm modeling something important for them. Yeah, I do that when I go to work and he's like, no, you're always going to work, You're always leaving. Get it on, And I just flip it around in my brand and I say, and I'm I I love my job. I'm so happy that I get to go to a job that I love so much. And my hope for you is that some day you get to go to a job that you love so much. To love that so important. And I'm saying it out loud to convince myself to

get over the mom guilt totally. How were you practicing saying no to others after you found out about your diagnosis, Like, what would you say was the best way to practice and follow through on saying no for you? You know, that's a great question because there's I actually wrote a small essay and then this is Motherhood Book because I'm not one of the I'm not one of the writers

at Motherly Lake Again play to other people's superpowers. Not my thing, but I did write one about that because again speaking about wise women in your village of sorts and friends. Um I had this woman, um Lori and in my circle of friends in California, and she her children a little bit older, so she's like, you know, a couple of stages ahead. And she talked about she had a cancer diagnosis um or when her kids are

a little bit younger. And she just said, you know, this is not my season for saying yes, this is my season for no, and like the season always like see change right and like my yeam, and that was so freeing, and so I just started saying, like, you know, that's like if someone asked me to volunteer at school as an example, right, like this isn't really my season for volunteering right now, and so like but like please ask me again, like next year, like ship that's good,

that's really good, not this season. You know, this isn't my season for that. Oh my god, that's really funny. Yes, And then you have to like and then talking about stories you tell yourself and saying it out loud, but also like, this is not my season for cooking in the home either personally, I've never been in that season. I I don't I don't know what that looks at. I don't know, but I've never been in that season to my whole life. I mean, a kid's menu I'm

fine with. I can do fucking meatballs, spaghetti, chicken, fingers, casey d whatever, That's all fine, But like a season for cooking actual ship never gonna happen. Don't care, not a value of mine, exactly exactly leaning into those and letting the guilt go about them and just being like this is not that's not not my thing right now. Yeah, I'm not not my season. That is so funny. One other kind of tip on that is I also, um, I started to prioritize, like if I am going to

volunteer with the schools. Back then, I said, I wanted to be in a place where my children see me, So like I'm not going to be on the organizing committee, but I'll show up to do the thing so my kids see me there and like I'm part of that experience with them, Like if I could pick and choose. So that was really important to Ship. That's good. Who gave you that tip? That one? I just kind of

like figured out. But here's the difference. Now that I'm you know, the CEO of a company, I can do my best, my most my highest driven purpose is joining the board of things. I can have the largest impact in the shortest amount of time. Right again, the season's change for like what you need and how you can work? Wow, what would you say to women who are moms who are looking to start a business? Start talking about it every day with everyone, Like, start trying on for size

what that is. We have a lot of self limiting talk that we do for ourselves, especially as women and even more as moms. And the biggest advice I can give is just start talking about it. Create that feedback loop. See what people have to say. Um, it'll change how you talk about it the next time, right, Like, just put it out there into the world and see what kind of goodness comes from that. The more you talk

about it, the more support you get. The more you you know, iterate the idea through talking about it, the bigger it becomes. It's it's like watering a plant, right like it will continue to grow and so and a lot of people hold it too close, like their idea. They keep it, you know, they kind of put it aside and they keep it so close, and you know they feed it quietly on the side, but like, no, put it out there in the world and talk about

it as much as you can. This is such a great and achievable tip like that is you just keep watering, just keep talking about it, to talk about your idea, talking about the business. You want to talk about it with anyone who listen. It's family, it's friends, it's the school drop off, like whatever funking is. Just talk because that's sort of how my husband started the pretzel business. And then like one thing started, my husband started a

pretzel business during the pandemic. But anyway, it was like through just opening his mouth like constantly. It really does work. Okay, Then the opposite of that question, what tips and support do you give women who have huge careers already who are becoming first time moms. Yes, so it's time to radically prioritize um and and to acknowledge that you are not going to be able to do all of the things. You're gonna be a master at your calendar. You're gonna

be so much more efficient. You're going to gain all these super powers through motherhood that are going to make you better at your job. But you've got you'll learn like I did, to hire really good people that like, don't be scared about them being better than you. That's a good thing, um, And to really empower them in a different way to free you up some on the

business side. And then the same thing at home, Like do the things that bring you joy and have the biggest impact with your child and with your with your partner if you have one, and like and let the rest of it go. Let it go. Yeah, that is so great, Such great advice. Any advice for mothers what they can do if they feel like it's all too overwhelming and impossible. Talk about it again. Um, let's talk about it with your partner, talk about it with your friends,

and talk about it with your doctor. You know, we've got a mental health epidemic in this country that has been exacerbated by COVID, by the pandemic UM A lot of anxiety, a lot of depression, UM, and you know, post lack of structural and governmental and societal support from mothers generally, like talk to your doctors about it. And so often women's medical issues, mental or physical, are not um are not really taken seriously in the medical world.

And so if you feel like you're not being taken seriously, go to another doctor. Yeah, you have to advocating for yourself. You have to. If you feel like you are not a priority, not getting the attention you need, people aren't listening to you, and you don't feel well mentally or physically, go to someone else. Exactly. You women intuitively understand when something is not right with their bodies. We are very

very capable of that. And the thing that we're not always so good at is advocating for ourselves and and giving voice to those things. And again we put ourselves on the back burner over and over again. And I say all the time, if a mother is thriving, then and only then can a family in a community thrive. And so we're at the center. I love that we are the center. Good Lord, Yes, do you have any favorite stories about your kids? Goodness? You know, I actually have.

I should have. If I'd know when you were asking this, I would have brought it with me. Um. I had this little thought, one line a day journal, like a five year journal. It's like this big and I did and I did it for like three years or like two and a half. Oh. I I did it one page and then I was like, I'm not doing this. Three years is good? Good Lord, good on you. The girls were two years apart, so there's a lot of cuteness happening in three years, right, like quotes down of

like what they would say. I used it as that more than anything. Um, and I just my daughter found it. My ten year old found it the other day and I was like, you know what, I might pick it back up like seven years later and just start again with it now. So it's to me, it's it's not like the big things, it's the little tiny things that make me so happy and make me smile. Like she reading that she remembered that her sister's name when we

moved here, she changed from Kate to Catherine. I mean she's seven, so like you know, you can tell how you can tell a high school is going to be for us already by that little anecdote. Um, I am no longer Kate. I will only be called Katherine. So I'm reading through this and apparently Claire, our eldest, used to call her Tate. She couldn't call her Kate. Um. And then there was another one in there that Kate

at the time. Katherine. Now, um, someone came up and like set like an adult and was like, you know what's your you know what's your name? And she's like, She's like, my name is Kate, but you can call me Cubby and like never ever has anyone called her copy like she gave herself this nickname. Yeah, there's all It's all the tiny little moments that add up over time. And you know, I wish I had taken more video actually when they were little, little, um, just to capture

all of that. Well, you were a little busy. It's always a little busy. It's okay, it's okay. Um, two more last questions and then we'll go, Um, how do you believe this is? We do so many podcasts on this, but if you have anything to add to this, great and if not, I get it because it's too much. How do you believe that America can change and provide better for moms in the workspace? Oh, Katie, I got a list on this one. I mean, okay, go read the State of Motherhood study fro or hell, go read

all five of them. Okay, if you want to playbook on what mothers need because through motherly they have told us what they need. They need paid maternity leave. They need rental leave in this country, like we need to rental leave in this country and stop. Yes. Second, they need affordable childcare. We need affordable childcare. Yes, yes, And

here's I learned this recently. Do you know that during World War Two, when women had to go to work in factories, do you know that we had government provided childcare for all of the children. If you were a working mother, you dropped your children off with these at these beautiful locations, for all of your children. They took your child to the doctor for you, I get the chills.

They took your child to the doctor. And when you picked your children up at the end of the day, they gave you a cast of role so you didn't have to make dinner. Shut the front door, Jill, Like we've done this, guys. This is fucked up. Were set up to fail. It's fucked up. It's it's it's what we are doing is impossible. And here's here's for you, Katie and for your for your listeners. The millennial generation is the first generation history and which women are more

educated than men. Okay, I read this on your site. It is no longer a nice to have for women to be in the workforce. It is an economic and competitive and perative, which means in order for our country to be competitive in the world, we have got to figure out how to keep women in the workforce after they become mothers. We have to support them or we are going to lose as a country, as a society. Like this is not a nice to have anymore, and

it's an imperative. Ok, you gonna make me cry. But those are two totally things that by the way, regardless of party, everyone is everyone, every single person that we mean, it's like it is one of the few things that everyone is aligned on this country is paid paternity leave, like government paid supportive fraternity lead and affordable childcare. That's it. That is what we need in this country. If we did those two things, Oh oh my gosh, it would

be yeah, yeah, who who has that? Finland, Norway, Sweden. I mean we're the last developing country. I feel like that doesn't have paid paternity leave. But there's others that do and have it much longer. They're smaller countries, they're less diverse. It's harder us as big and gnarly in a lot of different ways. But we can do this. We can. We have to. It's imperative we will lose. Women are better and smarter and more educated then men. They have to be in the workplace. Okay, finish this

sentence and that I'm letting you go. Parenthood is Parenthood is chaotic and the chaos, but like, there's so much beauty in the chaos too. There's so much hardship, there's so much beauty, like, but it is, it is chaotic, there is like always, there's a lot of emotions, there's a lot of physical needs, there's a lot of growth, there's a lot of problems. There's a lot of food to make and be fed, you know, like it's a lot,

but it's it is. It's beautiful. So like my first thought actually it was beautiful and magical, and then I was like, but it's not. Those are too clean of words. It's actually chaotic and that can be beautiful too, but it's definitely challenging and worth it. Jill, thank you so much for coming on Katie's crib. Everybody listening, please go to mother dot l Y. Jill, thank you for taking the time to come on Katie's crib and speaking with

our listeners. It was a wonderful or. I learned a ton of stuff that I will take for me and you made me cry. Um. Thank you so much, it's been so fun. Thank you guys so much for listening to today's episode. I want to hear from you. Let's chat questions, comments, concerns. Let me know. You can always find me at Katie's Crib at Shonda land dot com. Katie's Crib is a production of Shonda land Audio in

partnership with I heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shonda land Audio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.