The Pink & Blue Divide w/ Lisa Selin Davis

a girl because you're feeling like crap. Then there's also the gender revealed parties, which have really taken off over the years. People are finding creative and at times like very dangerous ways to reveal the sex of their baby to be. And as a mom who was ecstatic sobbed when I found out I was having a girl, I get it, but I really I got me thinking how this pink blue divide affects our kids and what our ideas about what's normal for boys and girls reveals about

our society. So here to speak to us today about gender norms and more is Lisa Sellen Davis. Lisa is an essayist, she's a novelist, she's a journalist, and she is the author of the book we are going to be unpacking today. The book is called Tomboy, The Surprising History and Future of Girls Who Dare to Be Different. Lisa, thank you so much for joining me on Katie's Crib. Thank you for having me on. I'm not sure exactly when this episode airs, but I am like three weeks

from having a girl, unless she tells me otherwise. But there's inherently different conversations going on than when I had my son, and I am obsessed with Lisa's book. It goes along with the two seventeen op ed in New York Times that went totally viral. So tell me what inspired you to write tom Boy? First of all, I mean, the first thing that led me to write it was having an here who veered away from traditional gender norms.

So in preschool, when kids were really starting to conform and boys and girls were starting to separate and play differently, girls were starting to play more with girls and boys with boys. My kid was not doing that. My kids stayed right in the middle, played with everybody, played with everything. You know, it was happy to play princess, but wanted

to be the dog. By the way, since she's going to middle school in the living room, I just heard her read a story for her humanities class and it took place from the point of view of a dog, and I was like, she've got her wish. She's the

She's the dog. So, as I do with all complicated things in my life, I wrote about that initially, and about the complicated feelings around, like being a feminist and wanting to have a kid who rejected all that feminine stuff, but then also being confused by it right, And what happened was over the years, as she continued being different from the other girls, um very very kind people who knew her well were assuming that she was trans or wanted a different pronoun her name, or to change in

the boys locker room, and it was all out of loving kindness, but it was also so based not on what she said, but on gender stereotypes. So it was very confusing for me, as someone who was raised hardcore feminist, to see the way that all this stuff that we worked so hard to say didn't just belong to boys was making people think that she actually was a boy. So I wrote about that in there was a big response. I would say most of it positive, but the negative

was so negative. And I think the combination of all those things, along with thinking why were there so many kind of tomboy kids when I was young and there aren't that many today, what happened. It's really that whole mix of things that led me to think there's a book's worth of material here. Oh my god, it's fascinating. It's absolutely fascinating. Um. You mentioned that there was some backlash from the op ed particularly Um I was informed

that it was from the transgender community. Okay, So when you dug into that sort of stuff, the backlash, what did you what conversations did you have with them? Well, there were some people who wrote articles arguing against my piece and saying, you know, what I was talking about was how do we support trans kids but not assume that a girl who is, you know, pushing against gender norms is trans. And I had no idea that I was like, not just stepping on feet, but stepping on

land lines with this. I did not know that there was a kind of feminist trans culture war going on, which is not monolithic, right, Not all trans people feel one way, not all feminists feel one way, but there was a very vocal minority of people, and so some of them felt that I had a son and I was abusing my son, and my you know, that my my son was going to kill himself and um. And and that was like, you know, actually kind of proving my point of like why why are gender stereotypes and

gender identity the same thing? And UM, I don't even it's years later, I don't have an answer to that question. I think it's a delicate, difficult thing to talk about. Other people were saying, you're blaming trans people for adults narrow understanding of gender. So what I did was I contacted some of the people who had criticized me, but I also contacted a bunch of prominent trans people like

Kate Bornstein. I contacted Chase Strango, who's a lawyer for the a c L who had written this very viral piece arguing against mine, UM, a number of trans experts and gender therapists to really say, Okay, you think I've got this wrong, Um, let's tell me more about that and um. And that was a wonderful experience because I did learn two see gender from multiple points of view and in the end. I don't think I learned that

I was wrong. I stand by my original point, but I did learn how to keep those viewpoints in mind as I wrote how to be more sensitive, how to be more inclusive, and how to write about one of the most difficult subjects in a way that hopefully didn't make vulnerable people more vulnerable. So it was, it was, It was a growth experience. Can you all me like, just so that we're all understanding the same terminology? Like what who is considered a tom boy? What is that?

What's the history of the term. Well, it turns out I had to have a basically a whole chapter on defining that term because it turned out to be so hard. What does it mean? So it dates back to the fift hundreds, and it originally meant a really boisterous, like wild, misbehaving boy because tom means tom type, tom cat, tom

turkey means male type and boy ment boy. After that it started to mean a kind of lascibious like slutty woman, and then about a hundred years later it meant a misbehaving girl who act like a boy, and that was an insult for like two hundred years and in the in the nineteenth century, it actually became a term of pride, so much so that the whole many parts of the culture started encouraging women to raise their daughters as tomboys. It became a method of child rearing to create healthy,

strong girls. But a lot of the stuff that we would say was tomboyish acting like a boy is so rooted in the time and the culture and race and class, and there were things like whistling was considered a boy's activity, So you would be a tomboy if you whistled, and you would be and you would be. You couldn't dress like a boy in the nineteenth century. It didn't matter what clothes you were wearing. But your clothes might be ripped or torn or shabbier because you've been playing baseball

and climbing trees. So all these things that we think of as boy typical and girl typical they shift depending on what's happening in our culture at the time. When I think of the word tomboy, I immediately go to like characters like Joe March and Little Women, And for me, like tomboy is a positive thing. Yet boys who are interested in like stereotypical girl role norms. They're called derogatory terms like sissy for example. What is the root of

this and what did your research reveal? Oh yeah, I mean from the beginning, there's been the idea that this kind of latitude that girls have to cross over into boy territory that's tolerated or even encouraged. That's never happened for boys. I think we're on the cusp of it now. And there's never even been a positive word for a boy like that. We have nancy boy, we have sissy. That's you can right. No one wants to be called that,

and no one says that a initiatively. UM. One of the things that really surprised me and the research was finding out that until a hundred years ago, young boys and girls, until about age six, when they went to school UM were dressed the same, and they had long hair, and they wore dresses, and they were lace and flowers and frills, and none of that stuff was girl stuff,

and there weren't gendered colors. Kids were dressed according to age, not sex, because the way that people understood gender, sex and sexuality was that they were all mixed together in their minds. Thinking about a little boy being a little man was forced you to think about them as a sexual being, and they didn't want to do that. And the reason that that changed was that the fields of psychology and sexology advanced and they began to think of

gay people as a classification of person. And the idea was that the Nurk sure made you gay, not nature. So they started encouraging boys to be in boy clothes, because God forbid, they were wearing dresses and those sort of icy things till they're five or six. Then God, we've done something. They might be feminine, and then they might be gay, because femininity and homosexuality were linked together

in people's minds. So the whole practice of dressing boys in boys clothes and like never putting them in in pink and frills and whatnot is to make sure that they're not gay. And that was very hard for me to stomach. I'm like, wow, there's abba it's literally woven into our clothes. You know. I can't tell you how different um I've I haven't. I've been very fortunate and that I have not bought a single thing um for

my baby coming. I have a lot of friends who had girls, and they sent me all their stuff it looks like the closet barfed unicorns and rainbows of pink and purple, and I it's such a struggle because the one part of me is like this is a nightmare, and the other part of me is like this ship is free, Like I don't want to buy anything like this is amazing. Um, tell me about pink and blue.

Tell me about where did this divide derive from? Well, first of all, most people don't know what they're participating in, what the roots of it are. And then the messages they perpetuated by participating, they're not even awake to know. I mean they think that there's there's boy stuff and there's girls stuff. And I think now people say like it's fine, So what what's wrong with pink? And what's wrong?

And you know nothing? The answer is nothing. That the problem is the messages encoded in the different toys and activities, clothes, and just the way we treat boys and girls differently. In our minds, we don't, but all the research shows that we do. And if you don't know the sex of the baby objectively, someone tells you you will treat that child differently, which is research that my family has lived. When people have have assumed my child was a boy

or a girl. She has actually experienced being treated completely differently right in front of us. And I think, I think the thing that's important to know about the pink blue divide and everything that's lumped in it is, you know, pink has only really been considered completely a girl's color since the middle of the last century, and it was contested before. When they started gendering colors, maybe in the

in the twenties. Sometimes some places would say that blue was for girls because it was associated with the virgin mary, and pink was for boys because it's part of red, and red is masculine. And these ideas were contests, did and debated, and eventually for various reasons, including the growth of suburbia and consumer culture in the fifties and the fact that Mamie Eisenhower, President Eisenhower's wife loved pink and decorative and pink, and these things happened together to solidify

these ideas. There's nothing wrong with pink, right, There's nothing wrong with unicorns, there's nothing wrong with rainbows. The problem is that when we mark things as for girls as feminine, we automatically say that they're not as good until like, you grow up and if you're gay and you're like, I love unicorns, rainbows and sparkles, and it becomes like you reclaim it as a pride. But what happens is

anything that's marked us for girls gets devalued. And so another really really interesting piece of research I read was about how these girls who go through the really intense princess phase sometimes between the ages of three and six, and they only want to wear pink, and they're really like trying to perfect the stereotype and archetype of a girl. And then they turned six, between six and eight, they start saying, I hate pink, I hate princesses, and they

go through a kind of tomboyish phase. What I learned from the psychologist doing this research of what they called the PFD or pink frilly dressed to tomboy phase, is that these girls are not just rejecting pink and pink frilly dresses because they realize they're still a girl whatever they wear, but because they realized that the world looks down on that stuff, so they start pushing that stuff away.

Um and people think, oh, yeah, the princess phase is over, but it's actually not something to celebrate because they've actually, basically by age six, they've internalized all kinds of sexism. So in our house, you know, everybody wears pink. My husband wears pink, my super my super masculine daughter wears pink.

My super feminine daughter wears pink. Rainbows are for everyone, barscles are for everyone, Unicorns are for everyone, and nothing is off limits because it's marked for one sex or another. We're just not doing it here. This is like a a safe zone for colors activities. No one's gonna say I won't do that because it's for boys, or I won't do that because it's for girls. Yeah, like you can't play with that truck or whatever. Like when you were setting up nurseries, I'm not sure if you did that.

Were you super conscious about what colors went in there, what toys like, was that a mission for you or were you sort of like, that's not a battle I'm fighting right now, And it didn't turn into it until you had your daughter, and we're actually experiencing her taking the lead on this stuff. So I think when I had my first kid, I was doing what I thought was gender neutral, which I revised since because For me,

gender neutral just means you ring everything. Everything's on the tape everything, there's paint, there's blue, and there's everything else. But um, I also got tons and tons of hand me downs, and I didn't know what I was having. So I kept the girl things that I liked and that and the boy things I liked. But I wasn't asking myself where did I get this idea of what's

girl stuff and boy stuff? And when all the kids were segregating by sex and my kid went in the middle of them, and I was like, what what is happening? I still didn't ask myself, where did my ex Why do I have all these expectations for her based on her body parts? Like so she she came out female, and then I had all of these ideas of who she was going to be. Even though I was raised

hardcore feminist. My family is filled with, you know, lesbians, like like they are all kinds of people not conforming to gender in all kinds of ways, and yet I'd kind of fallen into this trap of having sex based expectations. So what this book allowed me to do? What's question all of my own assumptions that I didn't even know I had because I assumed, as like a lefty and an educated person that I feel the same way. Like

I I'm like, oh, I'm fine. I have so many friends that dressed differently and don't conform and love who they love and you know where what they wear. And I found myself with my son like he's being raised by two musical theater actors and all he wants his trucks. And I was stuck and disappointed as that, I mean, I went a little bit the other way, Like I just was like, are we really going to an l A Sanitation department party to look at garbage? Like we're

going to look at garbage trucks? Because I just want to do the things that he's leading that bring him. He's three, right, Yeah, So most people, I sure did not understand how kids learned about gender, And neither did like my pediatrician or any of the grown ups in my kid's life. And we didn't understand that at age three, the great bulk of children don't know the difference between gender stereotypes and sex. The ones who are interested in

like perfecting being a boy or being a girl. I mean, and this actually applies to some trans kids too, right, they want to prove their membership in the group, and they know what the rules of membership are, so they know that trucks are part of the membership. And and for girls, you know, that's why they go through that

princess space. It's all about belonging, yes, And and we often think that it's like the the trucks or the pink dresses are what the bogy biological needs are about, Like, oh, there must be an evolutionary reason that girls love pink, that isn't it. The evolutionary impetus behind those behaviors is the human need to belong exactly as you're saying. It's like, oh, this is I've been told that this is my group, and so I'm going to do everything I can't to

master that group. And then it opens up these questions about kids like mine who why didn't she conformed? Why didn't she need to master the group the group rules. Eventually I was like, Oh, I guess it doesn't matter. I guess it's a wonderful thing to be celebrated because she's not internalizing all of those gender stereotypes, and so I don't have to do all this work to pull her away from the gender stereotypes because she's living in

this like limital space of freedom naturally, hallelujah. But then I had a second one. Then I had a second one, and that was completely different, right, completely different, totally different. I keep getting reminded. We had Glenn and Doyle on the podcast and her kids or teenagers, and she was saying in the teenage land, which I haven't faced that yet, I'm horrifying, but but that it's amazing to see even

in her bathroom. The words that are used on her son's deodorants and things like that versus her daughters, like the sun's will are red, white and blue, and the words that are very active, you know, like let's acts are body odor and killing, you know, whatever it is. It's very conquering. And then the female one or like soft colors and very like sensual and words that are soft and like you know, and she's like even that,

it's crazy. Yeah. And the boys are like you can smell like wood or nature like outdoors, and then I don't know, the girls are jasmine, floral, lavender, vanilla, vanilla. Yeah. Um, what is your opinion of gender reveal parties? Oh? The gender it's it's such a isn't it such a funny thing? And just all the disasters that it's led to. Oh my god, it just leads to fires, people getting hurt

and like, I mean, this is a new thing. Yeah yeah, I mean as someone who's been studying gender really intensively for a couple of years, you know, what are the frustrating things for me about the whole discussion is that most of us don't know what gender means. I mean, and not only that it means different things to different people. So we have these crazy culture wars that are really about people having different definitions of the same word, competing

definitions that do different things. Gender means all of the expectations and the stereotypes, all of the ideas we have about people based on their sex. Then very often gender is used as a synonym for sex. So in a gender reveal party there actually it's really a genital reveal party. That's what you're you're actually because that's all you know, you know, even they're identifying as and you don't know what they know they have a vagina, yeah, and you

don't know what they're gonna be. Like it doesn't you get an idea of this kid's gonna be sweet. This kid's gonna be you know, stay home and take care of the parents. This kid's gonna marry a nice boy. Your sex as a predictor of how how people will treat you and interact with you, but it's not a predictor of who you're going to become. Whatever we're celebrating when we have a gender revealed party, which is our expectations, our stereotypes, the ideas that we've imposed onto kids because

of their bodies. That's right. I opened up the email saying I was having a girl. Yeah, and I sobbed cheers of joy. Um. I've always wanted to be a mother to a daughter, and um, whatever she's into, Like, I don't care if she's a tomboy or whatever. Like I just am really fascinated by a mother daughter relationship

and really wanted to experiences that in my life. But I have to say, my son is a very physical player, and already we're like, well, we're so happy we're having a girl because he's going to learn empathy and compassion and be soft with her. She might not be those things, like you know, you know, that's the type of st

kids are. Wrestlers. I mean, and why I mean. I think what people often say is if you have one or two kids and you have ideas about gender, that a lot of times those kids will cement those ideas and they'll play into it, and you'll say, oh, yeah, it is girls are like this. And but when you ask people who have lots of kids, they end up realizing like, oh, we can't just attribute everything to sex or gender the way we we thought we could. I think it becomes very overwhelming when the veil is lifted

and you see how you're participating in these ideas. Um. I think what's happened for us is we've trained our kids in it so much that they call us on stuff all the time that I still don't know how to even talk about my kids sex or gender. Like when people ask me you have girls boys, and then

I'm always like, well, technically I have girls. But then you're going to get an image in your mind that's actually not going to be accurate for either of them, because the truth is, one of them looks very masculine, um, but it's really very sweet and kind, and the other one looks very feminine and will beat you to Paul, and it's really aggressive. And like wrestling. And I think we have gotten to the point where we went from a hundred years ago, or you wouldn't even talk about

the sex of your child too. It's all we talk about. And we can settle back somewhere in the middle where we stop attributing everything to their sex or gender. And I was the same way. I wanted to have two girls. I didn't want to have any boys. I didn't want to figure out circumcision. And I also I just thought, why is a good man so hard to find? It must be really hard to raise one. And I wouldn't know about that. And yet I got these two girls who are so different, and I don't know who's going

to identify as what. Um. I've been hearing about parents raising their kids as babies, that are their children that are being brought up without gender designation from birth. Do you think that's necessary, confusing good bad? Um. Yeah, I'm friends with a woman doing that. I became friends with

her from interviewing her. Her name is Kyle Myers, and she's fantastic and super smart, and um, she and I are talking about very similar things about trying to figure out how to raise kids without the imposition of gender messages, and but she's much more focused on gender identity. And so although she knows the sex of her child, and I think that, like the teachers know the sex of her child, she and her partner decided to raise UM their kids Zoomer with they then pronouns and let Zoomer

choose a gender identity when they were ready to. And that kind of protective bubble of ambiguity I'm talking about is UM something that they tried to create in a much more comprehensive way. And I think that that's a fine and good way to do it. UM. I don't think most people are ready to do that, And I think that one of the things Kyle and I talked about was, let's say you still want to acknowledge the sex of your baby, you still want to use the

pronouns associated with the sex of the baby. How do you still create all that space? And the way I do that is by talking about trans and non binary and gender career people with my kids and and really telling them like what I've been saying all along, which is the sex of your body is not a predictor of anything. It's not a predictor of how you're going to identify. Um, it's not a predictor of your sexuality, it's just it's your sex. I hope, I hope my

kids love their bodies. Um. But I think that what Kyle and other people raising babies are doing are trying to create space for those kids. And I think there are different ways to do it. But I do know that the more I can remove the gender messaging from my kids worlds, the freer that they are to explore and figure out who they are and who they want to be and feel like everything's available to them. No, And I love this idea. Ce It's it's so are

you talking to you? Because I'm like, oh, if she does do a princess phase and it ends, I'm going to be like, oh, thank you, good lord, let's get the hell out of this. The feminist in me like, oh my god, this is terrible, like these princess movies and the girl getting the guy in the happy ending. This is crap. And then you're saying, actually, it's the opposite. It's like not to push them to keep doing it.

But I'm saying, like, it's not a bad thing, Like it's keeping all these things available at all times, right, exactly and never using girly as an insult. Right, These are all things I never questioned, right, these are just things I went along with and just assumed that the princess thing was bad, because, yeah, the messages in those princess movies are bad. But you know, they go from feeling proud of being a girl and proud of being feminine to feeling shame about it and having to push

them away. And boys at the same age don't go through a phase where they feel like, oh, I'm gonna say I hate blue and I'm going to wear twotoos. Right, it only happens to girls, and boys often get dig down even harder into I only do boy stuff because they've also realized, oh, girly is an insult. All of the discussions that are about toxic masculinity or about girl's low self esteem are all rooted in these early years

of understanding gender and gender hierarchy. I don't think we need to keep going down this path if we become aware that it exists. We don't even see that we're on it. I mean I sure didn't. Oh yeah, do you think it's time to retire the word tomboy? So I think we're in such an interesting place with language, and I feel like tomboy was this word that did so much work for so long, because a girl could say I'm a tomboy, and then people would change their

expectations of her. Oh, okay, well she's gonna play sports, she's going to climb trees, she's going to have short hair, she's gonna wear sweatpants. It made people leave them alone some of them. For some of them, it didn't work, especially trans boys who were being told you're just a tomboy and you're not actually trans. But I think for the great bulk of girls, for a century and a half, this word gave them what I called them the book, a protective bubble of ambiguity. They could just be this

other person. And then the words stopped working because feminists were like, this word sucks. It's two masculines for a girl. And other people were like, we should call these kids gender nonconforming because it's gender and vitul and other people were like, just call them girls. The language matters less to me than stripping away our expectations of how someone should be, um, who they should love, how they should dress, what activities they should do, based on their bodies. That's

where I want to put the focus. If if you want to call yourself a tomboy as a shorthand for don't expect of me what you expect of other girls, that's fine. If you want to say gender not conforming, that's great. You have this idea about me because of my body and I and I want you to change that idea. Whatever words we come up with to help

people with that are fine with me. I think it's fine to retire the word tomboy, but I think we should do it with reverence and thank you for all the room it gave girls for you know, I totally agree. Um So, I keep hearing about countries like Sweden, um, which a place where they're introduce using this national gender neutral pronoun and they have gender neutral schools and where sex differences are de emphasized. What do you think it will take for the United States to achieve something like

what Sweden has. I don't think that having like a million words for kids is necessarily what we need to do, but rather just stop making so many decisions based on sex and gender like they do in Sweden. Stuff is for everybody, hair cuts off for everybody, colors are for everybody, sign them up for the same activities. What's it going

to take to do that? I mean decades of decades of repairing the psyche and soul of our nation after you know, this reign of terror and sowing of discord and hatred, and really good education for children that teaches them how to think critically and to how to ask where did my ideas of normal come from? And not feel so threatened by that? Right thinking critically, just thinking critically, Like you go past a billboard, who is that? Like?

Why was that made? Who is that for? I was never raised like that to question what was being fed to me? Um, me too. I am also a regular person. But I feel like through this research, I I feel better about my parenting. I feel better about my decisions. I feel better about, like how to mitigate the messages that my kids get. Technically, I don't have a boy as far as I know, and so I didn't have to worry so much about like raising a person who's

going to treat women badly. But when you think about what happens when you have a girl and you don't have to throw out your boy hand me downs, right, you can keep a lot of your son's clothes for her, So if it was the other way around, you wouldn't be sharing them. And now you're realizing, like, oh, there's all this stuff he's never even had access to because it was girl stuff and I didn't show it to him. And and so what kind of idea does that build

in a boy's mind about girls, that their stuff. I shouldn't touch it, I shouldn't like it. What happens then when they are interested in it? And what kind of shame gets developed? If boys learned to appreciate what's thought of as girly, to respect it, to be interested in it, then I think there's a better chance that they're not going to have to deal with toxic masculinity later, but there'll be more respectful and kind and in touch with

their own femininity. Because femininity, as we conceive of it in the society does not just belong to females. And we know this, we owe it. And yet like cries more than my dad, like nobody on the planet, this guy cannot make it through sentences these days. It's crazy. What a great model that is, How great that he feels like he can Oh my god, it's it's like it's crazy, this is okay. Before we wrap up, what would you like parents and young kids today to take

away from Tomboy? It was the great intellectual experience of my life writing this book. I learned so much and my mind was blown over and over again. I got to talk to so many interesting people, and also to help more people be familiar with their work. I've always been interested in the construction of normal. In my family of nonconformists, normal has kind of an insult, So it's really important for us to ask where our ideas of normal come from and to decide how much we want

to participate in that or not. I think most importantly for us to be aware of how much stuck we put in these bodies, how many expectations we impose onto them, how much we are participating in telling kids who they should be based on their bodies. I don't think it's that hard to undo it. I really don't. It doesn't mean it doesn't mean that you don't have to practice

it every day, like you know, meditation. For the people who do that, I really wish I was one of them, or you know, or exercise all of the things that are good for you but hard to do. This is another one. It's good for you. It takes a little push because you're going against the grain. But a lot of people are feeling like culture is something that you can't change. But what I learned from doing those researchers that it's changed many times because we've pushed back against

the restrictive ideas of who girls should be. And now it's time to bring boys along in that project. And let's see who our kids will be if they feel that freedom. The last thing I would want to say is near the end of the book, I came across all this research about how girls who are called tomboys in these research studies, and even boys who might be called sissies or gender nonconforming, the research showed that they did better in school, that if they were facilitated and supported,

they tended to have more self confidence. The higher girls rated on kind of tomboy scales, the higher paying job they would have all the more the more creative they would be like. And that basically having a kid who is gender nonconforming, and I mean that not as a gender identity, but as a way of being in the world, that it's correlated to all this really good stuff because

gender norms are bad for kids. So if you have a kid who is naturally resistant to gender norms, instead of being worried about that, my messages celebrate that you are so lucky and encourage other kids to follow suit and just do their own thing and feel those kids feel free. Lisa, this was incredible. Obviously, in this our conversation, I feel completely prepared and like I'm pro level at the gender conference. You already my son and daughter. The

book is wonderful. I can't recommend your book more. And and I just thank you Lisa so much for being on katie'script. That was so wonderful. Thank you Katie. Everybody. I want to hear your thoughts, your questions, your comments. Thanks for listening. You can always reach me at Katie's cribba Shonda land dot com. Katie's Grim is a production of Shonda Land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio.

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