So, It's Time To Go Back To Work ft June Diane Raphael

a very tough transition for everybody in the household. So we're gonna talk to June Diane Raphael and she stops by and shares her experiences of going back to work after she had her kids. Then we're talking to a labor and employment attorney, Janet Swerdlow, and she breaks it down, you know what kind of legal rights expecting and new parents have in the workplace. So let's get started. Hi everybody, and welcome to Katie's crib. I am here with my

dear friend June Raphael. We went to college together, did Katie lived. We also were in scene study classes together like years ago. Did you forget Katie. I have literally blocked that out with Richard, with Richard and Doucuez, Nick Douez, guys were like scene study classes I've taken, though, like I feel like l A is not a great place for serious actor training. June, I'm pretty sure that that scene we did in that scene class might still go down to some of the best acting I've ever done.

And no one I remember what was it. I really don't know. Um, we are here talking to June about they were professional actors at that point. I mean, you were more than me and like just doing like seed work on the side. We are another close. I feel the same I am, and you have all The podcast is going to go because Jude and I are friendship. We talk over each other a lot. I'm so sorry. I also forgetting it's an audio medium. Um, So can you do me a favor for those who don't. Can

you take us back to before you had kids? Like, take us through just like what a day would look like before you threw kids into the mix. Can you remember barely? I feel like I like went for walks and yeah, I remember. What I remember the most is my weekends. Yeah, people, I think don't understand that when you're a parent, Like Friday night is Sunday night for me, Like Friday night is like Sunday nights when it's like, oh, I get to go to vacation tomorrow, meaning work. It

really is true. Yeah, like the weekends, like let's like all right, let's go. We gotta fill up our day. We got to like make it to birthday parties, down the naps, yeah, and just drive through it all you have too. I have two children, and what are their ages? Four years? Just as if a few weeks ago and one months? What is twenty one months? I don't know, is it? Okay? It's under two years? Just under two years, okay, So they're pretty close in age. They pretty close in age.

I mean you sort of bang that out. I did. I did, which I I recommend, although it was insane for a year. But now I'm seeing the fruits of that, Like I'm seeing that they connect. We're in a really good time right now. That's good. Caught me in a good in a good in a good season. What would you describe your work life balance before you had kids?

Like you know what I mean, Like I feel like I think when you're an actor trying to be an actor or whatever it is out there that you're trying to do, you spend a lot of your hours getting after that. But then also you would what spend your weekend ends or Friday nights. We're going to say anything that's that revolutionary, But I'm shocked at how much time I wasted. And I think that being a working mother who's creative is a really interesting challenge because there are

times where I'm like, no, I have to procrastinate. I have to It's not like I'm sitting down and doing Excel sheets, do you know what I mean? Like, if I'm thinking about something, or you know, Casey and I write together, if we're pitching on whatever, there's got to be a certain amount of time built in in the creative process to funk around absolutely, to talk about everything that's not related to what we should be talking about, because it might come out of that right, because that's

the process. And yet when you're a working parents, you're like, well, I only have so many hours to work. I gotta get it done. But the creative process is not that box. Think about that. It's a little hard to give myself permission to just I mean I've never done this. I don't even know why. This is what I would like to do, to be like, oh, you know today, I'm gonna go see a movie. I've never heard of it. I don't even watch TV anymore. It's horrifying and I

only have a seven month old. I mean, does that change? Will I get better? Will I ever watch TV again? Well? Is he sleeping through the night? He's put down? Okay, So because you get your nights back to a certain extent, and then I think you start to lose them again. Like I'm starting to like Gus is now going about like eight as opposed to seven, and I'm like, oh, he's creeping in, scrapping into your nighttime. Um, when you had your first kid, did you take time off? How

much time? Did you feel pressure to go back to work very quickly? So when I had my first I auditioned for Grace and Frankie at three weeks postpartum. What yes, wait, what I know that? And I was still in my you know, as Ali Wang says, like the candies you were still in like your nice diaper that comes along with a very difficult birth. I was really recovering. So Casey got married two weeks after I gave birth and I was her maid of honor. So I had this wedding.

Not kidding, we loved Casey, but seriously, no, I regret not fully being present for that wedding, you know what I mean. I was there, but I was like, I was like um weeken with Bernie's Like I felt it was like being moved around in sunglasses. Yeah, pretty much. It was not your assault, I know. And I just felt like I was a witness more than I was a participant. I was just in a crazy moment in

my life. So you guys, for those who don't know, I'm referencing Casey, guests, former guests, and former friend but and very good friend Junes. But also June has a phrase, what do you call the first few months post baby? She calls them the dark times, which when I first had my son and we first spoke and I was so in it, you were like, oh, yeah, you're in the dark time, which you have labeled as I think

they are. It's night. It's that's a constant state of night, and like it's just there's no beginning or end to the night. It's all night. It's all night time. So did you go back to work and c you were auditioning quickly liked audition. That was the only thing I was going to audition four because they like, I got this script and I saw the part, and it's very interesting.

Sometimes we read something that the lines come easily. So I actually didn't spend much time for like memorizing the lines, which I think is telling because it just was I was like, oh, I know how to do this. I memorized them in like two minutes and went in when I went. I remember going to the audition and it was such a feat to get there, to go to Paramount for my house. How did you leave your house? And I was like breastfeeding and I was just like

I left. Was the first time when I left for that audition that Gus had a bottle with breast milk in it. And I was like, I don't know what's going to happen. Who did you leave him with? Paul your husband? My husband? How did you feel leaving and

getting behind? Because I feel like this is Paul was there, My dad was there and with his girlfriend because he had come to Casey's weddings, so he was there, and so when I came back, they were I went to the audition, I was again Bernie, you know, just like going through My hair was in a bunch, giant but at the top of my head, nice cute. But it was all I could do, you know. And I did this scene twice. I did both scenes one time each

and then left and was so proud. Was so not about the audition, which was like, God, if I could bring that into my other work, it was like the least of my concerns, um And then I came back and I were driving the top of our street and I saw like us at three weeks old in the baby carriage with my dad and Paul, and he was so happy. By the way, my breastfeeding whole, like journey

with us was a disaster. And I realized now like I was starving him because he had a full bottle and was like the happiest ever been, so like the first time I left him. I came back, I was like, oh, I guess you've just been hungry. Guys. Breastfeeding literally is the hardest thing in the entire world, you know what I resent. I think I said this to Katie, but like I Okay, the push in healthcare to get all mom's breastfeeding, like yes, yes, yes, save for this. There's

no infrastructure to support it in the real world. There is no like every public space, sorry I'm screaming, I love it, scream away should have a private lactation area in this contrary period period, every public space, every workspace, I don't give a fuck, So thank you. So that's how I feel about that, which is like, how dare you push women so hard, from their doctors, to their pediatric stands, to every sort of like resource that's out there, that this is the best thing and then provide no

support in the world for it. It's criminal. So I struggled through it and had bought into like, oh, there's no other way. I can't give bottles. Well you can, well you can, well you can um and they're great. So pretty early on you got behind the wheel of a car and drove and left your house and like became a presentable human being. And do you remember I can remember the first time leaving and driving back being

like I'm a mom, Like that's my identity. Now as I walk through this world and I don't know who the fucking hell I am, Like it's so weird, and now I don't even remember those times, like at all? Did you, um, what was your help? Assistance, babysitter, family, husband at home? What has been your infrastructure? I'm curious from baby one to baby two, from what I can tell, child raising with all the help, if you're a working mother, it just turns into a crap ton of logistics people's

So how tell me about finding help and nanny? How did that make you feel? Was that a decision that

you and Paul had made previous too? Yeah, we did, but with such little um education on what a work the rights of domestic workers are and you know what it is like doing employed to domestic workers in California and just simply what you know, we were taking other responsibilities we're taking on as employers, which I think a lot of moms do not understand, and I wish there was more education on there's a Domestic Rates Act the past there are legally um like I've now printed out

that you know, my god, I don't know anything about this right but because most moms don't, and you have most moms, not most moms, but a lot of moms are employers. And so I definitely struggled in that department with I hired someone before I had the baby and had no idea what I needed or wanted and was like, do you know how to do cprs? She was like yeah, I'm like my question was do you know? My question was do you know how to handle a circumcision? Like

literally like and now people know I'll be circumcised. But he is like, I was literally like do you know how to handle that? Because like, I'm really freaked out and don't want to deal with that. Great you do. You're hired, no idea, no idea, no idea. And what I found is so you didn't use like a nanny service. I didn't. I ended out you did again and I found um a nanny who I ended up doing that because I had I made a misstep earlier on and with the woman I hired was not the right fit personality,

how do you know? Just personality wise, reality wise? I felt like I was a new mom. There was a lot of judgment coming my way and I couldn't handle it. She was not supportive of breastfeeding, and she made me feel really badly and she would do like voices as gus. She'd be like, I'm hungry, mom, what And I am hungry and I was like, wait what And I will say it wasn't the right fit, but I did try

to have many conversations with her. You know, here's the thing I'll say about like bringing someone into your life to support you. I really believe that there are so many unbelievable domestic workers in nanny's who who make you know, working mother's lives possible. And it's a beautiful relationship and it's also professional relationship and should be treated as much.

And I think we live in a world where it's like the work is devalued and so it is not given the professional treatment that it should be, and boundaries are crossed and they don't have an h R department to go to, and so you moms are like taking on this thing that they don't even And I really wish there was more support both for domestic workers and for mothers and parents. You know, this should really be

a class. Like of course, like you know, in l A, we're very fortunate and for you guys listening, like you know, there are a lot of classes offered in childbirth. You know, how to do a diaper, how to do a swaddle, things like that, but there really are no classes offered in how nanny, how to take care of a nanny, how to really put boundaries up, like set yourself as a leader, or I felt like whatever it is that you know, it is a very very very interesting and tricky.

And I'm saying from both sides because I was a nanny for from the other side too. I mean, I wasn't a nanny, but it was a babysitter, and so understand like it's a it's a domestic space you're walking into. It's a very interesting thing to navigate. So I was fortunate enough very early on. I mean, gus is only three months to find the woman who I love and a door and who I respect, and it has made my life possible. And she's still with you, still with me, would be with me till the day I dict um.

She is wonderful. She is very very lucky to have her, and she is truly both taken care of my children and taken care of me in doing that. And the thing that I find most important is my relationship with her. It's like she's great with the kids, of course, but I am so proud of the relationship we have that we've worked on that you know, we had gone through

conflicts before that. Yeah, and we've had, like you know, we do it a little less frequently now, but in the beginning when it was just us and I didn't have the second like we would have mean eating once a month, Oh my god, I need to do that, just like I want to hear how is this going for you? What do there anything want to talk about? Here's a couple of things that I want to talk about.

Like it's a job, it is. What was it like the first time you ever left your home, your kid to go to work, and how did you feel and how did others make you feel? The first day I went to work was on Grayson Frankie, and I had a clugged duct. The first day I went to work was on Grayson Frankie and I had a clugged duct, mother fucker. And I was literal id for I've never had one before, so I didn't know what was happening.

And I remember being in the makeup trail or just like getting ready to a scene with Jane, and I was like, my nipple is there was shooting pain. And I was texting my lactation helper and she was like, you must sterilize the needle and then pop it. I had never and I've had four o'clocks I have. I'm sorry. Okay, So it was what they call a bled What is that? What is that? It's a little white thing. So I was like, I can't do that. I'm working. So I worked. Yes,

I worked through the day. This breast, I'll never was a rock. It was a rock. I couldn't pump out of it. It was shooting pain. Yeah. So then like having to explain to the A D S like I have to go pump and this is all when I talk about like lactation rooms. It's also just educating people like you have a working mother, you know. It's I would get so fucking mad at the A d S. They would get on their talkies and be like, um, June has to go do her thing, and then like

I'm not embarrassed about it. I'm going to pump breast milk, like like where are we like breasted? Like this is so stupid. Oh my god. I had such an I'm

so at all a D department. Oh my god. Now I had support from I had support from other people for sure, but like I felt a head to like really navigate that with some of the just when you said to Gus the first time, did it feel like a thing or did it not even feel like a thing, Like you were in work mode and it was like easy for you or was it like dealing with that

rock hard breath so much pain? And then I went home and the electrician filt and was like nurse and nurse, and I was like, I can't, I can't, I can't. And so he was liked like trying to get on the nipple, and I was just so I couldn't do it, and of course I felt and I was like crying. My mother in law was over and she had she was she's an r N. She had the steriles like I'm going to you know, I'll do it for you. And we sat in my bathroom and she put a

needle my nipple and I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And then the craziest thing happened. So if you can imagine this tiniest stream of milk popping out of your nipple, like but like projectile, steady, but like a pin, like so thin like a pin, and I just had to empty it. Okay, you guys, whatever, whatever, because it was like it could you couldn't see it because it was like it would be so small. It was, but it was a steady stream that I had to forever, that I had to

get out leaving Gus. I mean, honestly, Katie, I don't even remember the moment. I remember it was like the moment you're talking about the identity shift was. I think he was probably like maybe four weeks old or so, and the first night out Paul and I did, we went to a Billy Joel was performing at Hollywood Bowl, and I remember that was our first night out and sitting there and thinking, I will never be alone with my own thoughts again. I will be me inside this

head of mine and then I'll be with him. And it was this like I felt like I was being split into It was really intense, and it was really an identity shift that I can only say, like you'll go through. Maybe the last time was like puberty of like, oh, I'm not a baby anyhore right right now. I feel I have been with him forever. Difference that and I felt like I had to really grieve that time alone

with myself. I remember, like I when I first had Albie, I really didn't connect to him, quickly, and so I had a night nurse, and I felt bad because I had had other friends that had had a night nurse, but they had after three nights, said you know what, we don't need it. We don't want someone else in our house, and we really we don't. Really, I want

to do this on my own. So I thought that was my experience, and yet I didn't connect to Alby's in the night nurse would come every night and I would happily pass him off right like I was like, please take him. I don't like this. I don't know what I'm doing. This is like literally the least fun

I've ever had. This is the dark times, Okay. And then at about six weeks I started to go back to work slowly and we had our nanny and simultaneously, it's kind of when I fell in love with Albie and I remember her giving him a bath and I wanted to ring her fucking neck like like I just was like the mama bear came out of me, like he's mine, he's mine, he's mine, it's my responsibility. I'm supposed to be the one taking gear of him. You're not supposed to be dank. Given that is since then

completely saving it. But at first I had a really hard time just watching somebody else take care of my kid. Now I don't know if it's because my mom was a stay at home mom and I felt like I felt like she did a great job and I was somewhat failing. It's a lot of the pressure we put on herself. It's really have you found that judgment as far as being a working mom and having your nanny come with you places or yes, I think that's been hard to navigate, but um, it gets it's gotten a

lot easier. And I will say have a very easy child. I have a very easy older child, and the baby is very like forgiving of me. So I haven't felt like I remember Gusts went through a period that where I was working a lot where I would come home and he would be angry with me, and I haven't found that. Oh God, that is going to just break my heart. Yeah, And he was like, withhold and now

you work for me. So so much of what I'm realizing for myself is like I have to come in on top and just say, you know, you're really mad at me, You're really mad, and I can handle that, Like, tell me more that's so you're really upset. Has he ever ran to the run to the nanny over you? Oh yeah? And like I know, we say in our heads, but that's good, right, because it's just good that more people love your nanny. You don't want him to not like your nanny, but like or your babysitter. But does

it break your heart at all? Of course. But I think the flip side is a better way for me to handle it, which is, like you feel safe to reject me. You can reject me because guess what, motherfucker, I'm always here. That is a huge lesson. You can reject me because I can handle it because I'm the

big person and you're the little person. And I'm going to put on my big girl pants and say like it's only because you love me so much, and you know I'm so unconditionally loving, always here, So bring all of your bad feelings to me, like you feel safe.

And that is the truth that if they can reject you because they feel safe too, because they know, like a lot of things I think with moms and dads, like the dads will sometimes get like the love and even though they're not there as much, but it's like

the moms get the other stuff. It's whoever is not there a lot because all the homes I have baby sat in, like mom's dad's and mom's moms, whoever was away the baby or would always sort of put that parent on a pep still because they know the other one is always there and always there, they can kind of treat them like garbage. This is a huge thing for me to remember. Will you remind me of this the first time I call you crying and I'm like, he just ran to me, and you know what, he

will and that's okay. It's less to me about like, oh he feels safe with her. I'm sure that he does, and it's just absolutely safe and warm and nurturing person and there's love there, right. But I think there's also a way to say, like I support your relationship with her and you should have that, and I want that, and I am your primary relationship so you can bring all of your nasty negative feelings to me. Oh that

makes me feel way better. Did you find it Did you feel any fear or judgment as far as like a maternity leave, Like did you have to come to terms with it? Because I had a problem. I had a hard time, Like I remember being like, oh god, am I going to tell people I'm pregnant who I work with? You know, Like are they gonna treat me differently because they know I'm pregnant? Do they think that I'm less than you know, some some people think of

pregnancy as a disability or like did you find that? Yeah? Yeah, I mean I have. I have a lot of thoughts on that, Like I do believe women play a motherhood tax. That it's just true and there's data so to support it. And um that we are literally like rearing the next generation for this economy, and we do so much work that's unpaid labor, and we are not you know, it's really not valued. And the same way pregnancy seen as

like a disability. Mother it is seen as like a disability and companies see it as a bottom line that they have to pay for. Um. I really hope that changes and things that needs to change, especially as like more and more women are in the working force than ever and yet we have created no structure for them to succeed in it. Um. So I know there's this whole thing about like women can have it all, which means like you can work and be a mom and

be grade at both. But it's really not as it's saying women women can have it all in a framework that was not built to support them in any way. It's like that's problematic. Did you have separation anxiety? Um? I went through a really hard time when Gus went into preschool because he had a hard time early days. For me, the preschool separation was harder for me to like see him crying and have to have teachers pry

him off of me and walk away. June, I am like and also walk away for confidence with like a happy I like. I remember going back to Scandal and having staring at the monitor because there was a night nurse there exide to go to work at four o'clock in the morning and call him my mom saying, you need to be on a plane tomorrow because I know this, I don't really know this person watching my son and she's going to shake him. I was convinced she was going to shake him and give him brain damage. It

was what I was. It was like a hundred percent the Bad movie that was on repeat in my head, and that was like my total anxiety that I was, like, I've worked so hard for ten months carrying this baby inside me. I pushed him out of my vagina. Now I'm handing him over to someone who is going to wreck the whole thing. Um yeah, Um, can you tell us a little bit about I think it's amazing because you are really amazing and talking about being a working mom.

Can you tell us another way in which you are helping this whole world of being a working mom and explain a little bit about the Jane absolutely, So. Really, when I had my second, you're putting your money where your mouth is. I know, well, I I feel like I've created something that I personally have needed. You know, that's sometimes where the best ideas come from. It's just like, oh, I just simply needed this. When I had my second, I was I'm writing a book right now, and I

could not find a place to write. And I created We turned our guest house into an office, and they find the kids find us out there. And it's just been really challenging for me to like work. And so many more people are working in mobile ways right and not checking into like nine to five. So I, along with my co founder Jesse Know, we've created what we call the Gene Club, which is inspired by Jane Adams of the Hull House in Chicago, who did so much

amazing work for women. But essentially, we are a work in community space with an emphasis on the working mother and women general. So we provide a work space where there's child care offered. So again a very basic concept but one that has not been done. What we also do is we really try to take care of the whole woman. So we're kind of we want her to feel like she's walking into a hotel, like a five

star hotel when she comes. So yes, we will take care of her children, but we will also do her children's laundry, and we will also, if she chooses, send her home with a meal to put in the oven because and we will also like get her car washed and you know, all right, But you know, I think when we talk about women and the things that they do, it can see like menial, like oh, yeah, you're you're probably in your household in charge of all of those

things and the schedules, and like the corporation you run from one baby, you know, like all of it running the household is running, right, But we but when we also try to understand why women don't run for office, why women don't you know um risk in terms of like startups and why there are so few women see us and we talk about why we're not going to

the next level of dreaming like the impossible. You know, I feel like we have to we have to have an honest discussion about motherhood and the other jobs that we're doing, be it taking care of children, are also taking care of elderly parents, which I have done, and you know, it is unpaid labor that is not accounted for that most women are doing. And so mind so it's like when we we talk about these things, there's an assumption that that work is being done, and we

don't ask women how they're doing it. We just assume it's being done, even if they have help. And if you spend you know, Carrie always said to me, Carrie Washington always said when we talk about like running the business of you and your family and things like that, if you're spending all of your time maintaining, you can never grow. And so women, whether you're stay at home mom or a working mom or whatever it is, it's this constant on five minutes behind them because you're you're

just maintaining the day to day life. And so there's no space for you to go to grow and to go and to dream and to maybe go for like a bigger goal that you might have set for yourself. Absolutely so. So the big sort of piece of what we offer is that separate childcare that's on site. Our mothers are there with us. We are incubating a space in Large mont right now where our investors are in, our executive team are and we have some friends just coming over so we can sort of test our services

with them. Um, they're not being members. Were opening up another location in l A. I'll come back on once we do and we can talk about it for paying members. To really take this idea and like, you know, make sure many many women have access to it because the you know, it's it's it's very it's very real problem, right.

And I say this from also a position of privilege, like there are many women who neither ford nanny's nor daycare and have small children and have to So my dream is this expense to a level where it's affordable and accessible to all women. Um. But we're really we're totally funded by women in our community. UM, and I'm

really happy about that. But but I feel like the conversations that are being had right now about sexual arrest in the workplace, and you know, all of this stuff is so incredibly important, and also we need to start talking about like mothers in the workplace and parents and and the new ways in which we can create space for them, because I believe that we're not tapping into like all of women can all of what women can do.

If you were going to give a piece of advice to a working mom, that is the worst question ever, because how do you narrow down to one thing? But what comes to mind? What do you wish you had known? Or so someone told me something about boys and working mothers. I haven't like, No, I cannot cite this data, so

I'm just gonna say it. I don't know where it came from, but I choose to believe it, which is that, um, I had a working mother, and I was very close to my mother and also wanted more time from her, right I did. So I can say that very honestly, But I am so glad that I had that model for myself. And you know, I believe so the data that I'm talking about those is something about raising boys. We're both raising boys. Until they tell me otherwise, but

for now there I'm identifying them as boys. Um, but that of course may change. But so but I do believe, especially for for children who identify as boys that and this is the data that I'm thinking of. Their views on women are completely like they're way more progressive if they've had a working mother in both the way that they are then going to marry and support their partners and parents. So that like kind of like that really

helping me get away from the guilt. That also I will say this to working mothers and because I'm trying to do this and it's not easy, and that's where I'm like created the game club is to try to really um, you know, push this idea is that we don't we can ask for a lot more, and we should be asking for a lot more. And it does cost corporations money and they do have a bottom line that they're going to worry about, and you know what, like they need to pay up because I don't believe

we're asking for like nearly enough. You know, we need to be asking for of course equity when it comes to our paychecks, you know, and women of color are paid even less than white women. But also we need to be asking for um reasonable working hours for parents. We need to be asking about childcare. And you know, I need to be asking for longer maternity leaves. We

need to be asking for fraternity leaves. So like when we say like, oh, yeah, it's so great, I got three months, it's like, let's not stop there, because three months you're still not a person. Yeah yeah, most developing countries and if you look at where we fall, it's it's just abysmal. It's like really embarrassing. I didn't get it until I got there. On when I was on the other side, when I was pregnant, I thought three months would be too much, But good lord, I mean,

I'm just starting to feel like myself. Just yeah. I mean, if I had lived in one of those countries where it's maternity and paternity leave for a year, I think I would feel don't only very connected to my child, but also super ready to like get back out there. Well, because we don't consider it an investment in our future, right, it's considered a drain on the workforce, not as though you are. I mean, and to talk about this just like in terms of the economy, and it's really fucked up.

It's like it's not considered like we're investing in our future. Um, because the workwomen do is severely undervalued, and that the caregive caregiving. And I say that for women in terms of caregiving of elders and small children. I say that about domestic workers too. It's just undervalued. I gotta go. You're amazing. That was so amazing. You gotta go to work essentially where you're going. Thank you, June, thank you

for coming on. You are the loveliest. Hi, everybody, I am so excited to welcome a lovely, lovely, amazing person by the name of Janet sward Low. And excuse me, guys, but it is real early on the Katie's Crib today, it's like seven am, and Janet's already dropped her daughter off at her middle school around the corner. So we're doing this this section of Katie's Crib at seven am, when my voice is like a base. Janet, um, tell

us what you do for a living? So I'm an employment attorney and I work here in Los Angeles, California, and I advise employers on how to comply with the laws that pertain to the workplace. Amazing, So can you tell us Um, what is the legal This is gonna be really fun because I think I've played a lawyer on television a bunch of times, and I just make pretend that I don't really know anything about this. What's

the legal definition of maternity or family leave that? So there really isn't as far as as far as maternity leave goes. What people typically consider maternity lead is really a pregnancy disability leave. So it basically says that if somebody is disabled by pregnancy, then they're entitled to a leave. And in California we have a very specific pregnancy disability lead law, and all over the country there's the Family and Medical Leave Act, and that also covers women who

are disabled by pregnancy. So that's typically what you think what I think of when I think of what is maternity lead? So does that mean? Does that mean? Okay? So obviously my brain is about to explode because you know, it's hard to like even imagine pregnancy as a disability, right, So like already my brain is like, we're are short circuiting, Like why is it called that? I don't understand? Um, because I worked up until I was I think nine

anathemaspregnant or something very physically working. Um. So do you mean like if you have a pregnant See, that's like you're on bed rest, that's considered what you relieve or like No, like just the fact that you're pregnant is the disability and you get a certain amount of leave. Like so yeah, no, it's the it's the former. So if you're pregnant, at some point, you're probably you know that you're gonna and it may be that you're not disabled at all up until the time you actually deliver

the child. Um. And that's very common. Typically it's really what your doctor says. UM. But it's so typically doctors will say, you know, a couple of weeks before your due date, they'll give you a note that will say this, you know, my patient is now disabled by pregnancy and can't return to work until four to six weeks after delivery. UM. The pregnancy disability can also be if somebody has severe

morning sickness. UM, it could cover you if you that's really good to know because that is very debilitating to some women who are just like over the toilet for months. Absolutely. And also so if you've got a doctor a note saying my patient is severely struggling with nausea or something, then you could be covered and get compensated. There's no

it's these leaves are unpaid UM. But you know, typically an employee may still have some pregnant it's some sick leave available and they can use their sick leave towards that UM and you know for things like mourning sickness. In my experience, employers aren't going to require notes for all of that UM, and sometimes they don't even count it against because there's a maximum amount of pregnancy disability leave you can get under federal law it's twelve weeks.

Here in California it's four months. So most employers don't even track the times when you're when and when a pregnant woman is out due to like a pregnant mourning sickness, got it UM. But it can also cover periods after the pregnancy. So for example, if you have some postpartum depression depression, that also can be covered as part of the pregnant disability period. Wow, so good to know. So every workplace has to have an official maternity leave policy,

Is that correct? UM? It depends on the size of the employer under federal law. So once you're outside of California, you're only really necessarily protected if you work at a work location where the company has fifty or more employees. Now, there's some states that also have their own laws that

will cover people that work at smaller employers. And here in California, so long as you work in a place where there's five or more employees, then you're covered five or more for California, and for all states fifty or more, but could be varying existing. Okay, um, can you walk

us through in Katie's crib terms? And I don't mean that to our listeners, I mean literally me, like what Family and Medical Leave Act isn't known as f m l A. Okay, can you um walk us through that and how it impacts lives of new parents or expecting parents. Absolutely so. So, Actually, under the Family and Medical Leave Act, there's a provision that provides for employees to have twelve weeks off of an unpaid leave two bond with their newborn.

So that's that maybe what a lot of people are thinking of in their minds when they talk about maternity leave. So this can cover fathers and mothers um and it provides again twelve weeks of unpaid leave to bond and care for your newborn. So as as soon as your child is born, then you can get twelve weeks off to care for that newborn. Would cover paternity, maternity, significant other any. Um. It depends on your state about the

significant other. Um. If if they're registered domestic partners, they should be covered beyond that, Um, then it's not. Well if it's if it's the employee's child, they don't need to be you know, then they yes, right, got it? Um? What's what now that my brain is is kind of recovering from the from the pregnancy disability situation. I don't

know why that's so crazy. I have such images of Carrie Washington on set being super pregnant, um, and you know her doing like amazing Livia Pope things and like being down to grab her product bag or something, and everyone in the career rushing over to help her up and her being like no, no, no, I can do this myself. I'm not disabled. Like that's just like the

image that keeps coming to my mind. Um, can you tell us the difference between maternity leave and short term disability that there is a difference, so so the disability coverage, it's it's really more of like it's there's almost I believe all the states have a state disability insurance program. California certainly does, and most states have that program. And what that is is that's just a way of providing some income supplement during the period that you're out on

pregnancy leave. And it varies from state to state that much that is is it indirect correlation to what you make. UM. It's very similar to like unemployment insurance. So usually it's a certain percentage of your normal compensation up to some got it and how far in advance do does one go about getting that and figuring out what that is? Like?

Who do you call? So typically you would there's the Here in California, your employer would give you some information about that, UM, but you would want to go to your whatever your state. There in each state there should

be some government agency that handles that. Here in California it's the Employment Development Department, and there would be something and I think you could probably wherever you are, you can google your state and then disability insurance program, and I would imagine that it would come up pretty easily. You'd find the government website that would give you information about that can lead you to some phone numbers somebody

to talk to. UM is leave different if there's UM birth versus adoption or surrogacy, or like a foster care situation or someone's adopted somebody. Do they still get the twelve weeks? Like how does that work? Yeah, that would still you'd still get if you're covered if you work for an employer that's covered by the Family and Medical Leave Act UM, and there's certain requirements for the employee

or receive the benefit. They have to have worked there a certain at least a year and at least one thousand, two hundred and fifty hours in the last twelve months, assuming that they're eligible for it. Then that would cover UM bonding with any child that's been placed with you for whether it's adoption, whether it's foster care, or whether it's just a birth. Got it? UM? What happens if the parent right is home and is like screw this, I can't go back to work, like they you know

they've decided not to return. Are there any How are they protected? Like how how? What are the penalties of that? Like, I'm I'm sure that there are people that come to the end of the three months and like you said, maybe they're actually struggling with some real stuff physically, who knows, maybe mentally who knows, or what if their whole lives have just gone through like a major change and they don't want to go back to work. Like what happens.

So during if somebody is out on family and medical leave, even though I mentioned that it was an unpaid leave, the employer still has to continue to provide you with group health benefits to the same extent that you are

receiving them before you went out on the leave. So the what could happen possibly is is under the Family and Medical Leave Act, if you return to work from your leave and stay employed by the employer for thirty days, then the employer has the right to come after you and require you to reimburse them for the money that they spent maintaining your group health benefits. But there's an

exception to that. So the exception is is if the reason you're remaining out on leave is because there's there's the recurrence of a serious health can if you have there's some kind of serious health conditions. So for example, say you're suffering from postpartum depression, that would follow it under that Um, if the child had some kind of serious illness, that would that would govern that would that would create the exception. Also, there's also a more general exception,

which is if there's circumstances beyond the employee's control. So in my experience, I've never seen an employer actually three months of like you owe me this. It's like, um, can we have a soul on heart? Right? I've never seen any I've seen many situations where the employee doesn't return, but I've never seen a situation where the employer tried to recover that. Wow. Interesting, Um, in your experience, Like you said, how, um, do the laws protect new parents

from being like fired? Do you know? I know that can sort of be a touchy thing for women. It's really interesting being an actor in Hollywood. Like here, I am working at Shonda Land, which is literally the greatest place you could ever be pregnant. I think my biggest mistake was that I didn't have like all of my babies and rhymes is my boss. Um. But it's bizarre that the minute and I got pregnant was the minute I in my head I said, oh my god, I'm

gonna get fired. I mean, it's insane. How I don't know why that is culturally or has been kind of burned into my brain of like, oh, man, like you're not going to be wanted in the workplace as soon as somebody finds out you're pregnant. It's it's really bizarre. Um. And I know I'm not alone in thinking that, because

my friends have had the same fears. So what are their laws to protect actually like new parents from being fired while they're on leave, Like, how do they know that their job is will be there when they get back from those twelve weeks or should they need longer? So the law the same law that entitles employees to these like family and medical leave, and in many states their their own state either equivalent to the family and

Medical leave law or a separate pregnancy disability leave law. Um. These laws also provide protections against being retaliated against for

exercising your right to take these leaves. So um. And there's also under federal law you can't discriminate discriminate against people because of their gender and pregnancy is considered so so there is there's a lot of protection for employees who, you know, what if they're ready to return to work after and they've you know, they haven't exceeded what they're legally entitled to as far as leave, um from being

subject to being terminated? Wow, so what so someone could get somebody in t like you really shouldn't that shouldn't be a worry like being fired while on maternity lead Like there are laws and you can be protective against that. Um, when did that all come into play? Like that's been a well, the Family and Medical Leave Act, which you

know we're talking about the whole country. That was actually the first bill that Bill Clinton signed when he came into office, and that was back in that that that's that Act was signed. So it's this has been the law for a long time and many states have you know, and and the gender discrimination has been around for a very long time. So since laws, I know you really specialize in California. UM, but for those listening who live in other places, what are good resources that new parents

and parents to be to check out their rights? Because I have to admit, like again, being an actor, I totally dealt with unemployment and being on and off unemployment

for years. It's like totally how I survived. Um, was that check for two fifty dollars every once in a while would make or break sometimes the difference like for sure, um, but it was a real I mean sometimes I thought it was a full time job, was keeping my unemployment because the times I would have to go to the unemployment office and show up and wait in line for a long time or wait on the phone for four

hours or something. Is it similar when like parents, we have to check out their rights or how they get compensated or go to that go to a website and find a number to call. Is it just the most hiring process or is it pretty easy to just say I have maturity leave, I'm do around this time? How do I get paid? Like, I don't know? It seems

daunting to me for some reason. So so the first place that you can that that people can go to to find out about their rights for these leaves would be a starting point would be the the U S Department of Labour's website because that's where the that's where they're enforcing the Family and Medical Leave Act UM. And then the other places you know, again it would just be googling, you know, that's probably the easiest way to

find it. UM you know, state disability or you can look for you know, leave, family and medical leave, pregnancy leave, and UM and then when you after you do search go to government websites and for information UM as far as how you know logistically to do that. In California, it seems to me that those days, I don't know about unemployment insurance. But when I know, I personally when I went out on my pregnancy leave, UM, I everything

was just done through the mail. UM. Now it's probably all on the on the internet on the right, because I definitely didn't go in anywhere to fill out any forms for ability during through the male Holy crap, I'm sure. I mean my daughter is thirteen now, so it's UM so. And then you know in some states, you know in California, during the bonding leave portion, you know, after the pregnancy disability is over and you're just taken time off to

bond with your child. UM, we have also something sort of like unemployment where the state you are also getting some income supplement during that period of time. So people out of check and see if in their states they also provide some kind of state UM income, some sort of supplement that you can get weekly or whatever exactly during the time that you're taking off to bond with

a newborn. It really sounds like this is such important work that women and their partners really need to do before before they give birth, you know, like a couple of months before, really make sure they've covered their bases. And as much as a pain that this googling might be, it might be something on your list that you push off until the end. In the end, and then I'm speaking for myself, that would totally have been how I

dealt with it. But you really gotta put in the time and and like make sure you get what you do, you know, get what you can get. Yeah. See, your employer is is also a good place to start because they have been through it maybe before, especially if you're at a company or Yeah, and there's certain forms that they're supposed to give you which give you guidance on how to file claims and so forth. Got it, and then their policies. It's so crazy that it's that it's

that it's twelve weeks. I mean, I don't know, did you have any idea why that number was picked or why why it's three months? No, I do not know why. But in you know, some like in California, if you combine your pregnancy leave with your three months of bonding leave. You know, if you're if there's if you have a very complicated pregnancy, you can you can get a total of seven months. Actually, so yeah, the four months for pregnancy leave and then followed by twelve weeks after the

child was born, and you're no longer disabled. Oh I wish that was for every reason, but it's not automatic. Again, No, you got it, You got it. You gotta really, you know, do your research and your due diligence and get yeah, and and have a doctor say you're actually disabled for

four months then you need this. Well yeah, but it's so nice to know that that's even there for I mean, I had a very very normal labor and pregnancy, um no, you know, major alarming things, and I mean twelve weeks was still not enough, so you know what I mean, Like, I just I really felt Adam always talks about his paternity leave and it was such a beautiful time with him and he and he because my husband also took off three months, um and it was very important to him,

which I love that about him. But he really felt he loved those twelve weeks, and I did not. I thought those twelve weeks were completely not a bonding time with my son at all. It was like a like, oh my god, I've my body has been completely blown out and I don't know who I am. And so I really felt like those twelve weeks were just they're such a fog to me, Like it's not like, oh, I bonded so closely to my kid. I mean I fail,

like the bonding for me really happened later. Those twelve weeks were just a fog of just just like looking at my body and and not knowing what was going on and figuring out breastfeeding and you know, just taking a fifteen minute shower staring at the tile wall and hoping that the water didn't hit my bools because they heard so bad. So like that's what the twelve weeks

for me. So I can't even you know, you hear about these countries that have like a year, Yeah, yeah, I mean that's just you will never go to a place like that, right, Like that's just you. You would be surprised. Yeah, But I hear about these Nordic glands that sound just like utopia, just like maternity and fraternity a year where you're so bonded with your baby, not America, not here. But um, but it's great that we get Yeah, it's better than what we had before, which was what

was it before? Before? You know, outside of California, there was really no protectively for to care, just to bond for just the Yeah, like people were going back to work like a week or two light yeah right once they're once they were no longer disabled. Yeah, oh my god, I mean I would have lost my mind. Yeah, I already lost my mind I was home. Well, some employers probably had more generous policies than what the what the law required, right, but the fact that the law didn't

require goshu once parents returned to work, is there? Um? Is there some sort of bare minimum that employers are legally obligated to provide? Like do employers have to provide like a breast milk? Like you get a break for fifteen minutes, or let's say somebody has to pump during a conference meeting or something like how our employers supposed to be flexible with an incoming mom when she comes back to work. So that's going to depend that's going

to vary state by state. There's really nothing under federal law that would you know, cover everybody in the whole country. Um. Here in California, we have a requirement that an employer reasonably has has to reasonably accommodate women who are needing to pump um, and we have there's some special rules about providing them a place where they can pump privately. That's something other than the bathroom stall. So there, So

we're lucky here in California. UM. But outside of California, you really need to check looking to do some research and find out what what your state offers as far as protection, if anything. And then that's another good conversation to have with your employer before you come back to work if you know that you are going to be pumping um, to to talk to your employer about that and find out, you know how that's gonna what kind of arrangements can be made. Wow, I hear these things

that I'm like, okay, like pumpings loud. But you know I was so again, like working in Shawn the Land, It's like oh no, no, Like my they gave me another side of my trailer that my baby lived in and then I went back to my trailer every three hours in breastbed. Yeah, I mean that is like and then the A. D s would knock on my trailer and be like you think you're done? You know, it's so kind and lovely, like how much longer? And I'd be like, I don't know, I don't know what I'm doing.

You and the whole crew of like, I don't know how many people it is on your people just waiting for me to be done. And thank God for trailblazers like Carrie Washington who came before me and just really set that precedent on the scandal set specifically that that was something to not feel bad about. And Shonda was like, I,

oh god. I remember showing up at work when I told our line producer that I was pregnant, and my trailer had a huge deck and stairs built in front of it that Shanda had built, um had our carpentry department built because they didn't even want me going up and down trailer stairs pregnant because they didn't think it was safe. And you were like, I took a photo of it, and I emailed into Shaunda and I was like,

look what I got. I'm gonna put flowers on It's like my deck if I wasn't pregnant, Like where you would smoke cigarettes in your twenties or whatever. And she was like, she just wrote back matriarchy with a ton of exclamation points. Um, have you seen personally cases of harassment or discrimination against new parents? Have you seen that? I haven't. Really I haven't because I do defend lawsuits and I haven't seen those kinds of claims. Doesn't mean

they don't exist. They just haven't passed by me, got it. Um, But I'm sure that you know that people have brought these claims, probably you know, the the angle that I would imagine would probably be more like, you know, I took my leave and ever since I came back, you know, I've been mistreated and I'm being retaliated against for having

a baby. Yeah. So you counsel employers on developing because you're on the other side, you counsel employers on how to have good workplace, how to avoid those types, how to avoid those types of lawsuits. Um, what have you seen? Like? What what are the trends lately? Like I know you mentioned that before there was I mean, California seems to have always been good. Yeah, so the trends that I'm seeing are and you know, California is such a is

really a trend setter and a lot of this. You know, California, you will start, Yeah, California will start on some of these new laws, and then you'll see progressively, yea trickle maybe to Washington, Oregon, some of the uh, some of the other states. Um. But for example, one one recent law that just came into effect this year is that we now have in California, if you work for an employer, instead of having to work for an employer that has fifty or more employees you know within the area where

you work, now it's they've reduced it. So if you if there's twenty, they're covered. So that's then yeah, that was that's a real benefit to people that work at smaller companies. So that's something that I would expect to start seeing in some other states this number that maybe people will shift lower it. Well, I don't I wouldn't expect that from our federal government, but from the local governments. Um, you might be this your state local You could begin

to see more of that. Are there any other trends you're seeing happening? Like you said, We're not going to be sitting here in a year from now saying we got a year maternity. I don't. I don't envision that. The other thing that I'm seeing is is that more and more employers are just adopting policies that are more generous than what the law requires. You know, it may be that they're you know, right now, these these leaves by law only half they don't have to be paid.

That I'm seeing more and more employers starting to supplement um the income that the employee receives through like state disability and and coordinating the state disability and then they will pay the difference between so that their employees actually earning the same that they were earning before. That would be great. Yeah, that's a nice benefit, and I'm seeing that more and more. UM. So that's you know, that's

another positive thing that we're seeing for employees in the workplace. UM. What are your tips that you have, Janet, are there any tips for new parents returning to work? Like what all of this stuff? What could they do to prepare

before coming back to work. So one of the things is, you know, it would certainly be we talked about, you know, having discussions with your employer about what your needs might be as far as pumping UM and then The other thing is is that you know you want to make sure that you if you're significant other, the other parent isn't going to be home caring for your child, that you make arrangements obviously for for for the right kind

of childcare that's gonna that you're going to use. Um. And you also need to make sure that you now you're going to be if you hire a nanny, you're now going to be an employer, and you want to make sure that you're familiar with your obligations as an

employer towards your nanny. Film me, my gosh, I've never felt like more of an adult than when then, because I still am like I'm a parent, but I never felt more than a more like an adult when Adam and I have a nighttime work event or something and we come home and like pay the babysitter, because I was a babysitter for so long. It's bizarre to me that I even have funds to pay somebody like, and

that I was just out and someone else like. It just feels super adult and crazy that I have someone that works for me, that helps me care for my child, and and there's and and it takes some time to set everything up because you need to have like a state I am taxpayer idea. Never, yeah, you gotta so.

You you definitely want to start, you know, all that stuff early on, you know, shortly after the baby is born, and start looking and trying to get recommendations for for caretakers of course, and then backups also, um, depending upon who your employer is. You know, some employers are you really going to expect you to be you know back you know, so if the baby is sick for the first time, or the nanny excuse me or sick, or daycare is closed for the day or whatever it is,

you have to figure out. Yeah, have have some backup. What are your tips? Do you give your employers how to welcome back a coworker to the office, Like is there something that you know? Did They're like, this is your pumping room, Like what are the Well that's one thing to do would be to you know, orient them to how things are going to work logistically if there's pumping, you know, there's a refrigerator, you know. I know, I just learned this. I pumped also at work, but I

don't remember having to deal with this. But apparently if you because after twelve weeks and never still a fog. Yeah exactly. But now I definitely didn't have a there was no refrigerator for me to put my whole pump in. But we have an attorney who just came back from a pregnancy leave not long ago, and she has there's a refrigerator, so she can she puts the whole pump in the refrigerator and then you don't have to clean it.

So I mean, just to have discussions with the with the employee about what their needs are in that regard. And then what I would say is is that you really, as an employer, you really want to treat everyone coming back from pregnancy leave as if they're your best employee. UM. And you want to do that because you know it's it's good because it's it's nice, it's compassionate, and it also is good because you want to make sure that

you're kind of treating people the same. And you want to if you've got some great employee that you want them to stay with you and be an employer that is you know, welcoming and accommodating of mothers. Um. You

want to you want to show them some compassion. I mean, it is like you know before we went started recording, we were talking about, you know, the feeling when a new mother is, you know, driving back to work the first day, and I remember just the tears streaming down like face thinking, you know not you know, you're you're putting your child in the hands of someone you hardly know, and this is the most precious thing you've ever had in your whole life. That's right. It's very difficult time

for some mothers, not all. And just to try to you know, give a little slack um in the initial period and you get back, you do, but you do, but it is just the beginning that is a little bit. You know, you've had an intense intense identity shift, um, an intense intense hormonal shift, and you know, yeah, I think as compassionate and it will you do get through it, and you do come on the other side, and it does you end up able to kind of handle it on.

I mean, there are just so many women I look up to you now, included Janet, that that really work and you are also mom and you are doing both, that's right, um. And whereas in these these women are such a valuable part of the workforce. If you yeah, if you shut him down just because you know they're having a difficult couple of months after having a child. You're losing out on a on azing relationship and amazing that's right, that's right, Mike, drop on that. Thank you

so much for being your well, you appreciate it. Thank you guys so much for listening to Katie's Crib. Make sure you subscribe to the podcast and tell your friends. And also if you go to the website shawna Land dot com and check out the crib notes, you can see a bunch of the different topics we discussed in today's episode. Get more info. So check out shawna Land dot com and subscribe to Katie's Crib. Wat the Most Starts to Most st