Should You Sleep Train? We Investigate

you here. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with us. Um. I never heard about sleep training. I never knew what it was, and then I had a baby, and then it was all of a sudden, all everybody was talking about. Can you walk us through the very simple question of what is sleep training? What is sleep training? Such a good question because oftentimes people don't know about it until you actually have a baby. And there's this thing leap training.

You have to train your baby to sleep. Um, So it's basically just making changes in your baby's sleep habits so that they can learn to sell soup. So a lot of times we come home from the hospital they're newborn, we're there for them we're doing it for them. But at some point, and it's typically around four months of age, is when there's circadian rhythms start coming into play. What's that? Basically, they're what is the word circadian rhythms start, you're smart

circadian rhythms? Okay, they're sleep rhythms, um. And it's set by the rising and setting of the sun, and so that's where you get kind of those sleep schedules that people talk about, that nine and one nap and things like that, um. But really what happens is that four months of ages, they've become already accustomed to some associations to sleep. So whether you're nursing them to sleep, whether you're rocking them to sleep, dark room, dark room, there's

all of it. So there's associations of all involved with sleeping that they may need to unlearn and learn to sell soothe, and so that's where we come in and try to do sleep learning for them and by self soothing. To clarify that, you mean, like the baby, he or she has her own tools to put her or himself to sleep. Right. So sleep is a science, right, So it's a balancing of hormones. Melatonin is a sleep hormone that we produce um, and we don't really start producing

it until we're three or four months of age. So that's where you get that day night confusion. Before that, they're up during. Yeah, it's in case you didn't know where you're freaking out. Babies come out and they lived in a dark place for ten months and then all of a sudden we're telling them like, oh the sun's down, the sun's up, but they have no idea, and a lot of babies, even when I first come out, which I didn't know until I was going through myself, it's reversed,

so they could be up for some reason. Wow, they are napping the hell out of this day. But at nighttime it's like the most energy you've ever seen. And it's because you're saying until month three or four, they don't know. They don't go by the sun yet, they don't go by those rhythms. Yet, they don't produce melatonin. The one thing that we do is produce melatonin, and so melatonin in our breast milk is actually highest in the evenings. So if you are nursing, you have that

benefit to give them nighttime bread smelt. I am rather than night mind blown right now again? Oh God, I love Katie's grib selfishly because I get lessons like in motherhood on the regular, which is so great. Um wow, Okay, why do you think sleeve training is such a controversial and heated topic amongst parents. It is. It's often misguided sometimes by um, like a fear tactic don't let your baby cry um. And there is that kind of almost

like breastfeeding. There's that controversy to breastfeed or not to breast fresh and stigers attached judgment like this makes me aod. Now, this makes you a bad mom. Sure, if you're gonna let your baby cry, you're harming your baby. Right. There's a level of stress that's involved in learning a new tactic.

But the American Academy of Pediatrics is something that we follow as sleep consultants, and they actually put a framework together of stress that's really a good guideline to think about stress and what you are doing or not doing for your baby. Right. So, there's a positive stress response, which is a typical frustration, struggling, starting daycare, all those

are typical stress responses. There's a tolerable stress response, which is more of something that's not every day, maybe a divorce, a death in the family, and then there's toxic stress response where um, you don't have a loving caregifter, there's abuse, there's neglecting fault, right, So those are the leve That toxic level is what we're talking about, being harmful and damaging to the brain. That's not what sleep training is about, right, Um.

And you're not equating sleep training with abuse, right right. So that's where this kind of misguided information comes from. Of sleep training is involved with levels of stress. Yes, they're learning a new habit and it's hard for any of us to change something, so it's kind of dealing with that. You have a stable environment, you have a loving caregiver to help you cope through that stress. Right. We don't say here, go go learn how to sleep

and walk away right one. We do it for them first, we do it with them, we watch them do it, and then they do it on their own. Whoa, guys, that was just like a real SmackDown. Yeah. I definitely personally had You know, I went back to work when Albi was seven weeks old, and for me, sleep was literally like a number one priority list because I couldn't memorize my lines, show up at work, look remotely like I was a sane person and not like a garbage

bag and not get my sleep. And so I remember the first times I, you know, was told it's okay to let him make annoy kind of cry as sounds for two or three minutes. Wait a minute, let's see what he does. And he's going to start to teach himself, find his thumb or if you're a pacifier person or whatever it is, find tools with which to put himself

to sleep. And I did have those thoughts termittive of like, am I subconsciously damaging my baby that he's going to be in therapy for a million years because of me? Because I let him cry for three minutes And you're saying that is a stress that is not damaging. No. Plus, he's in the stable environment. I was watching that monitor hawk and counting down the second. And you're there when he wakes up, or you're there to feed him, to love him, to play with him. You know, he's in

that environment. He is. You're building that secure attachment in those first four four to six months. So that's what you're doing. It's good to hear that I have. And there's also atroversy. And I think there's also controversy and that if you do sleep train around four between four and six months, that there is that stigma of um that you'r harm and your baby it's too soon, is not enough weight? What do you say about those sort of situations? Is there a set rule of when, how

how much weight? All these things? And again I don't really know what I'm talking about. These are like literally rumors that have flown into my head. Typically, PD I always say, go by your pediatrician. Where are they on the spectrum in terms of weight wise, and or are they gaining weight? Um? You know, if they're born early, sometimes you have to wait a bit longer because you really want to go by their developmental age, which is

based on their do date, not when they're born. Um, So if they're early, you might have to wait another two weeks or three sure. Um. Pediatricians often have kind of a fourteen pound rule. Um. If I get a client with a twelve thirteen pound baby, but they're feeding well, they're gaining weight, I'm not gonna turn them away. Um, because they are developmentally ready, they are producing melatonin, they

are their circadian rhythms are in place. They do have social smiles UM, which develop around six to eight weeks of age, which is a prime example of when to set routines in place. Because social smiles is a connection. They are making connections and associations interesting. Can you UM talk to us about some of the different methods of sleep training that parents use. Is there a particular one that you recommend as it depend on the baby and the issue at hand, UM, So there's no one particular

method that I use. I often take a look at the baby, and you know, the parent is the expert on their baby, so I get a lot of information from the parents, UM, their age, what's been going on before, anything has been tried before, how long have they tried it. I've been trained by the Family Sleep Institute, which doesn't have one particular method that they were trained in all of them UM, and it's sometimes a combination of them. There's a Ferbor method which is like a check and console.

There is the sleep wave by Kim West. I believe there is cried out, which is extinction. Where is the true cried out? You put your baby in your bed, in their crib, you leave the room, You come back the next morning, assuming there's no night feeds, assuming and you still can do sleep training with a night feed And that's the one that moms say, like they did that for two or three nights and then they never

did it again. Like is that true? I didn't have to do that, So I don't know if I wouldn't even be built of the stuff that could do it. It's not for the faint of heart. I did it with my first Um, how many nights did it take? And how long was the crying? Do you know? Minutes? No? I opened a bottle of wine and I cried and watched the monitor and thirty minutes he was asleep. Wow. The next night it was like maybe ten minutes. Okay, So that's the cryed out method. What's the verber Berberber method?

What is that? So that is a check and console. So you put your baby down to sleep, he starts crying. Five minutes, you go and check on him. You don't pick him up, her up. Um, you say a little, it's okay, we're here, it's time to sleep, and you leave the room and then you can wait ten minutes and then you go in after tens I mean it can be another five. You can do lights of like going in every five minutes and just using your voice and your presence to console them, but you don't touch them.

And then the next two nights or whatever it is that's comfortable for you, then you might extend to you wait ten minutes before you go in the room. I have a friend that did that exactly. And then what's the other method that you say. There's a chair method, which is a little bit more gentle approach. So you're in the room with them. Um. It takes a little bit longer in terms of, you know, getting out of the room and being able. So you start next to the crib in a chair or on the floor. It's

like the chairman um, and you're there. You can first couple of days, you can use your hands on them, but you don't want any like any other rhythm involved because you don't want to start another association for them to get attached to. So you keep it minimal interaction. But you're there for them, and when they fall asleep, you leave the room. When they cry again, you come back into that position and you do the same thing

without picking your baby up. Wow. And and then you slowly move the next two days or maybe in the middle of the room. Then you're not doing touching, it's just your voice. The next two days you move again and maybe your three quarters the way of the room. Then you're at the door. Then you're outside the door, and then and then kind of like slowly slowly introducing that they are safe in this space, that you are here until I'm not here physically, but I am here

to hear me, but I am here. WHOA, that's this is all god motherhood. You've got to be a beast like this is so so fascinating. Um, do you have any advice for what parents can say when I don't know. I do feel like this is like breastfeeding, like you

brought it up already. It's just a very judgy topic. Um. I can remember very early on, like my baby was sleeping to the night at eight weeks, or like the other version, which is like, oh my gosh, I I honestly do not believe in sleep train until they are six months of age and fifteen pounds and that is cruel to be doing. I've heard all sides of the spectrum, and people are not afraid to give their opinion and their advice. So what would you suggest for parents that

are I don't know. I might have that are picking whatever it is they're picking and how to stick with it, or I think finding the support, um, whether it's their husband, their friend, their family. Sometimes family has different opinions though. Um. I've had clients who was like, I didn't tell my mom I was doing this or my dad I was doing this, And there's the mom and dad calling and I'm at their house and they're not picking up. And then she's saying, oh, shoot, my sister probably told them,

and that's why they're calling. You know, they know you're here. Um, So they got to find where they can find that support. And sometimes that's me, right. Um. I work with families on a two week period when they hired me, so I'm there for them for two So that how it works with a sleep consultant. You get hired for a two week period and you work with that family closely and hopefully in that two weeks you see a bunch

of improvement as far as sleep is concerned. Yeah. I have to say sleeping, even to this day is probably the only really touchy subject where Adam and I, my husband and I, we really sometimes butt heads, which is when we put the baby down and he's making fussy sounds. Um it's like someone screaming in my head, Like it's so loud to me that I'm not going in there. And the seconds go by like years, and my husband just has a way higher threshold for like it's only

in fifteen minutes. He's going to put himself down. He always does. He does it every night. He's gonna put himself down. And I'm like, no, no no, no, no, no, no no no no. Tonight is different, it sounds different. It is just it's just taking forever. And and to be clear, he's going he's not screaming crying at all. He's either has gas or he's like getting tired and expressing himself.

But I have to say even to this day that that is a husband wife dilemma for me, for our family, absolutely, And I work with family couples that way because there are differing opinions about what to do and kind of coming to an agreement in the middleground and having that plan and being able to have that plan for both of them to work off of and the caregivers too. So you're like a therapist to the middle woman. Um, So, at what age would you say a sleep routine is established. Um,

so I touched on this early around six to eight weeks. Um. Just a routine, right, not sleep training. Right. We're not trying to get them to sleep on their own, um, but they are. When you see social smiles, they are making connections. So when you put those pre bedtime routines in place, it's their sense of routine and structure that

sleep is around the corner. Right. And that's when I was told like this is when you might introduce a bath routine and then like a song or a book, or the lights change or the white noise sound comes up. But you get into this like sort of ritual routine that they can associate with. Now, I'm going to sleep

for the night, right, and and and naps too. You can do a shortened version for now do and it helps so helps increase that melatonin levels because their bodies and their mind are already getting ready for sleep because those routines are starting, and so that melatonin is starting to get produced. Great. Um, is it ever too late to start? Like do you ever get phone calls from babies that are are not sleeping through the night at

one and a half too? It's never too late. It's it's a lot easier when you start early because you just have certain pattern patterns and rhythms um that are in place. Um. So when you start sleep training a little bit later, um, there's just a little bit bigger of an adjustment. UM. Maybe a little bit more protest because they're verbal. Um. So you put, so, what are

the benefits of sleep training? And you know, if I was playing Devil's Advocate, here are there benefits to just reading the baby's cues and just letting the baby sleep when they're ready. That's probably like nails on a chalkboard too, But no, I mean for our listeners and viewers who are like truly, because there are so many stigmas attached. So sleep training is important both for the parents and for the child because sleep deprivation is hard on us.

We can't function as well. We're going to fight more with our partner, We're going to be testy during the day, we won't remember things as well. We don't have pregnancy brain. It's going to be like mom right not yeah, yeah, the same thing, um yeah, continuous um. So, and what happens in sleep, especially in the first four to five hours of sleep um is non ari em sleep. It's

the most important sleep we get. It's when our brain shrinks and our toxins are flushed out, so that sleep is most important to get consolidated, which is get them to sleep from like seven to twelve. And then that's when we say, if you're still having a feeding at night, have it after midnight. WHOA, Okay, I was doing that

in the early days. Okay, okay, okay. So sleep training, you would say, is so beneficial because it's important to get them to have quality, uninterrupted sleep that's where their brain develops. And also so that we don't just jump off a crazy drain of insanity because it's just so hard to be I mean, I've never been so sleep deprived in my whole life. I thought I was gonna

lose my mind. Um. And on the flip side, right, just following your baby's cute, right, Yes, So that works great if you have a flexible sleeper, and sometimes you just fall naturally into that pattern and that's when you get like, oh yeah, my baby sleep and at eight

weeks you're like, right, you have a uniform baby. Thanks a lot, you know, right, Um, But it goes hand in hand, right, So the parenting style and the baby's flexibility just matched up and they got into a good rhythm um and it just it happens naturally, and so they're able to follow those babies cubes. Sometimes babies have colic, sometimes they have reflux. Sometimes the parents are working, so there's a lot of other things juggling and to follow

your baby's cues um necessarily doesn't always work. And that was, yeah, that was my case. Like I remember going back at seven weeks to work and emailing my nursing schedule to carry Washington work because she was the director of the episode, and I had to feed albeit six nine twelve three six, and I had to know that he was going to be waking up from his nap at that time, that I was going to be allowed to go back to

my trailer at that time to feed my kids. So for me, it really helped knowing that he naps from a thirty to ten in the morning. At ten, I feed him, then he naps again from eleven thirty to one. At one, I feed him, and then he napped again so in the morning, you know, so the early stages, it was very helpful. Now it's funny that I find

that I'm off and he's in a routine already. His naps are sort of changing, and I've become far more flexible in sort of experimenting, like not waking him up from a nap and seeing how long he goes because I think he's trying to tell me something that his naps are. Maybe we're going to drop a nap, Maybee. You know, we're going to go from four naps to three naps to two naps, you know so. But I'm also off, so I have some of the you know it, really,

you're right. It depends on the schedule and what your baby thrives on. And he's already in a great routine totally, so you have that kind of Okay, Well, he knows when he needs time to go to he knows. I have a whole setup, the whole aura vibe of his room is totally set and shades. She's got a mark pac don't. Oh yeah, guys, we're in Albie's crib right now, micrib, Albie's nursery. But yes, and I do carry those things

around with me. Now. I've gotten so confident that we've um that he's a good sleeper right now that we are able to we black out his stroller and we haven't traveling sound machine. And so if I am on the go and can't move my schedule things around, he will take his nap. It's on is good and I don't want to do it all the time, but when I do, it's he knows. It's like he knows as it's time exactly. Um. Can co sleeping be a part of sleep training? Are the mutually exclusive? Um? Close sleeping

is another controversial topic. UM. There co sleeping so you guys know means sleeping the same bed as your parents. Is the mom or dad, correct or or and the baby you get me? So again, we go by what the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends, and part of their role of having the baby in your room till one year of age, UM was to encourage you know, the ease of breastfeeding and taking care of your baby and reducing the risk of sids. CO sleeping with a newborn

and a baby under a year of age is not safe. Um, So instead of co sleeping, we want to think of it as room sharing. Right, you can have a co sleeper that's attached to the bed, but you're not going to roll over onto the baby. Right. Um, so it's really about reducing the risk of SIDS, and that's something can control because there's other things that we can't control,

like developmental periods. And maybe something they're thinking about about SIDS is that it is biological, so we can't control that, but we can control all these external factors. So if I have a co sleeping parents, if they're over one year of age and the baby and you know there that's the setup they want to do. I can work with them, but I really try and encourage room sharing.

And sometimes room sharing is a necessity because of another baby, or they live in New York's Yeah, yeah, of course, so kind of working around maybe they're in a studio apartment. I've done that too. I just took my first trip where Albie hasn't slept in my room in a long time. He's seven months old, and he was in my room and every two minutes I heard a sound and I thought something was happening. It was insane. Um, you say you do a two week period with the family. Is

that how long sleep training typically takes? Again depends on the method, right, So the chair method will take up to ten to fourteen days. Just in terms of your process of removing the room. Right. Um, but that's not to say your baby might be sleeping way before that. You might sit there for five minutes and then leave by the all right, it could be all done in two days, three days, five days. It's wow. It's a case by case basis and how long it typically takes.

And it also depends on how consistent the parents are. So consistency is a real, real big component. Because maybe there are a visitor comes and I always say no visitors, no traveling, no this, but things life happens, right, I always get called like, oh no, I messed up. Well that's okay, let's reset. Right, it just might take a little bit longer. Right, How do you wean a baby off of nighttime feedings in order to get a longer

chunk stretch of sleep? So again, so the first feeding we want, we want it after midnight because their brains is going to develop. If they go down at seven pm and they sleep till midnight, that's a great five hour developmental chunk. Okay um, And then you can do it a couple of ways. You can push the time out. So let's say two nights in a row they made it to twelve thirty, okay, tomorrow night, let's try and make it twelve or one o'clock. So you can push

it out that way. You can also reduce how much how much time wise or that's what I did, um, and kind of push it out that way, so they getting their stomach is less full, right, so they're not used to sleeping on a full stuff. That's what I did. It took forever, but it was like what worked for me, which was I would pump and then that bottle that

would happen at one o'clock in the morning. It was five ounces, then four and a half for three nights, then four for three nights, and three and a half for three nights, and three for three nights, then two and a half then two then gone exactly, Um, okay, great, thank you I have I'm not like a freak about sleeping, but I'm always like, he's not eating enough, Like there's this weird you'll see like as Mom's just every single thing is like anxiety. It's like it's like he's not working,

he's not eating. It's like he's not eating at one am. And I had to do that. First, I dropped the four am feed. Then I dropped the one am feed and then magically it happened. Um, and then I felt like a human being. Is nap training and sleep training same different? Do do the same thing at the same time? It tell me I typically like doing them both at the same time because sleep comes together much quicker that way. Um, because when you don't get good naps, you don't get

a good nighttime sleep. Are they directly related? They can't. They can lead to nighttime wakings. No, thank you. I do like working on them together. That doesn't mean they can be. They also can be separated, so you can work on nine. If you're going to do one first, you work on nighttime first, because it's the easier of the two, because naps are harder to come together because they're a lighter stage of sleep. Got it. So even when you're working on them together at the same time,

naps still might be wonky a little bit. Um. But then as the more practice you give your baby for now being, the more it will come together. What are the early I don't know mistakes that parents make with sleep training stopping too fast, saying it does it's not working one day two, Oh gosh, I'm so bad. That is me I mean, I end up working out there. But good thing, Adam. You know, I always feel like it takes a partner to be kind of stronger than the other too, stick with it, not given too soon,

not just quit too early. So it's really perseverance and stamina and having a plan. Write it down, even if you're not working with someone, put a plan down on paper. This is what I'm going to do on night one. This is what I'm going to do on night too. That's really your resolution, keeping yourself accountable. Tell somebody about it, right takes a village guys. Um, so you had already

mentioned this and this is big on me. But what happens when you might have gotten a lot of these routines into place, and then all of a sudden something does come up travel illness, somebody's come to visit it, just throw off everything and you kind of get through it and then you come back when you come back to it. Is that kind of the deal, Yep, You come back when you get at home, you pick things right back up where you left off. Um, waking them

up in the morning to reset their circadian rhythms. If you've been traveling, guys, I'm going on a trip, and I am fully f freaking out about the time difference because I have a great schedule going on and a great sleeping baby, and I'm like, what am I doing? But see, I am of this person of like I'm two ways, like I'm I'm I'm sort of a hippie and down for like whatever, and it's my life and I want to live it and I want to grab

it by the khons. But I also am like, but he we're on a schedule and he sleeps through the night, and like, what am I doing? He'll get back, it's a muscle, he knows it. He'll come back to it. And it's a personal choice. Like you know, um, you basically just go back to whatever training method you had going great for you from before. What do you suggest for people who like you, say, A, the partners involved, nanny's are involved, grandparents are involved, you know, any sort

of other help. I'm sure it's so important to get everybody on the same freaking page of your schedule. Later, if you're a scheduled person, have your schedule laid out.

I had printed all over my trailer because I had a lot of different I it took me a while to find nanny I very much trusted, and so at the beginning, it was my husband, and it was friends who were also nanny's when I was a nannie, and people I really trusted because I was having a hard time leaving the baby alone and I had to write everything down, and I really hope that everyone's stuck to it.

What are the common myths, stigmas, all this stuff about sleep training that you want to dispel, Susie, right here, right now. Um, we talked about when already that your harm and your baby if you let them cry. Thank you for telling me, because I even still worry. Oh yeah, I mean, I'm like, I think about those early days of like letting him cry for three minutes and just being like, because you know what, I just went away with my mother, God bless her. I love her so much.

But I put the baby down and he was whining and complaining for a couple of minutes. Um. And my mom was horrified, like horrified that I let him do that. Um. And she'll be the first to admit, Oh, Katie, I let you sleep in the bed for whatever. I never let you cry a day in your life, you know.

And and so we have differing opinions there um, but I have to admit I totally caved and went in and got him and rocked him, and I like, never rock him to sleep, but like my mom, and I felt the judgment of it, and I was like, oh my god, you're You're totally right. We're on a family vacation. He's upset. He should never be upset. I'm a horrible mom. I'm hurting him. I went up and I rocked the baby and he wanted to sleep in my arms, and like, I don't ever do that. So the smallest comment will

make you do the stranger for a stranger. I remember being in baby Gap and my little girl was taking a nap and I was like, all right, here it comes he forty five minutes sleep cycle. She starts crying. Grandma in front of me, turns around says, I think she needs to burp. Oh, you're like, and I'm like, how do you know? And I'm like okay, I'm like ever reason, I'm like, my god, damn it, I gotta buckle her now and like pick her up. And I did, and you did? I did. Oh my god, we don't

even know this person, you guys. Being a mom is so weird and hard and a study in being strong on your own and sticking to your convictions and oh my gosh, it's so insane. Um So another one, Yes, what else is your only option is cry it out?

That it's involved in, like just letting your baby cry. Right, So you're saying, if that's something that just freaks you out, that doesn't mean that you necessarily can still achieve getting some sort of sleep schedule in place, right, And timing is a key component of it, Like you can get your baby down if the timing is right and you're processing their sleepy cues and getting all the things in line that I can go down without crying. Oh, it might take a little bit, but I watched my baby

like a hawk. As soon as I see like yawn one to three, I'm like, we got nap, baby, we got nap. But I'm going to catch him before the breakdown happens. But like I know when I've crossed over into breakdown land where I missed. I was doing whatever and I didn't see the cues of the rubbing eyes and the yawning and whatever, and now we're into full blown but bye, And now I know it's gonna be

so much harder to get them down. Um, this is so so so all interesting, and I think that that's very helpful to know for moms who might be super turned off by the stigma attached with crying it out, or feel really upset about babies crying and their own baby crying, that there are options, like you've said, the Ferber method and what was the other one? Others others. Chair, there's a sleepwave, they's hug it out. There's another I'll get out. We didn't talk about you at all. What's that?

So it's another gentle version. So you have a baby that's standing, Um, I haven't gotten there yet, guys, I am scared. Okay, it's similar to chair, but you don't pick up your baby, but you kind of go over and you just kind of like I'm here, hug yeah, and then I'll slowly like calm down with your calmness and they'll light down. Oh my gosh. So I did hug it out with my daughter at some point when she was standing, because she was she was sleeping very well.

And then you know, some developmental thing. So that's also the thing where you might have your sleep thing down and then all of a sudden rolling over his new four months sleep regression is new. We're standing now, we're pulling ourselves over the crib, and we are mcgivering and matrix ng our way down the side of the crib. I'm so scared for that to happen. By the way, I'm like, that'll be another episode. Oh good. Then I had a friend who um when her son got the

big boy bed. He kept running out of his bed, drunk with freedom and getting into their room every single night, like in the middle of the night whenever he woke up and they put a gate up, and then he would scream cry through the night on the other side of the gate and say, I'm bleeding, I'm hurt, I need to change my shirt, I'm all wet. I mean

not true things. And I just have a vision of my friend and her husband holding each other sobbing to stay strong and not go because he had to walk his own self back to his big boy bed and put himself to sleep. Guys, this is not for the faint of art being a parent and whatever method you choose, just getting through the night and everyone having sleep. It's safety, guys. Like there were moments you're driving behind a wheel of

the car. You need sleep. So we've talked a little bit about the benefits of sleep training for the baby, um developmentally, but also I'm sure you probably see huge leaps and bounds in in parents themselves when they get sleep. Yes, Um, we're able when we get sleep, We're able to be more responsive to them versus being reactive. Because when I know when I don't get sleep, I'm snappy for sure, and I don't need to take it out on them just because there having a tantrum over something and I

blow up at them because I'm tired. Right, So getting sleep in line, not only for them but for you is really important so you can parent better too and get behind the wheel of a car drive them somewhere, yes, or just yourself. Yes, But yes, it's it's sleep. Is I had never gone without sleep in my entire life. I had never. I mean, any time I'd had like a crazy night all night are in college to get a paper in or something, I would sleep the next day.

Or any time those early twenty years where I partied really hard or whatever, I would sleep the next day. You didn't have to do anything. No, And when I brought my son home, I for the first time my whole life went three nights without sleep, and my husband said, I was saying crazy things, like literally crazy things. I was scared, Like, I I really enjoy sleeping, I like napping, I like my eight hours, and sleep was, like, all of a sudden, the most important thing. And I'm so

happy to know you. There are tons of different options with figuring out what a parent is comfortable with for themselves and for their baby and for their family, But what we know is that sleep is more important day and that's what I do too, is building a relationship with the family to understand them, and you know, are they working, are they not working, Who's taking care of the baby during the day, What type of schedules do we need? Um? Kind of putting it all to ore

they going to daycare, are they going to preschool? Um? When naps look like they're what are their philosophy? Kind of putting it all together for them so that they can have a plan of what to do when they do get home or maybe they're not getting home in time, so it really tailoring it to your individual case. Susie Mankis, you are awesome, healthy little sleepers. You guys, Um, thank you so much for all of your time and your information and for talking about babies and sleeping. You're welcome

for the pleasure. Hi, guys, I am so excited today because my dear friend Abigail Morgan is here, and she is not only a very good friend, but she really helped me through very rough time in my life after my miscarriage. Um I, it took me months to get a regular cycle back. It took me months to feel like myself again. Abigail was the person that stuck needles

in me lovingly every single week I got pregnant. And I also went to Abigail every week of my pregnancy, and she visited me at home after I gave birth. Um So, not only is it like acupuncture, but you were a helper and spiritual help to me mentally physically pre pregnancy, throughout my pregnancy and after my pregnancy. Thank

you for that. You're welcome. I explain a little bit about what you do, and then we'll we'll move into um all of the awesome stuff you do to your with your own children, because you are a mother of two. I am yeah. So I'm a licensed acupuncturist and herbalist, board certified in traditional Chinese medicine in the state of California. So what that means is that I'm I have a master's degree in Traditional Chinese Medicine Masters and Science and UM.

I am a primary care physician in California. So I have to diagnose using you know, biomedical codes UM and let's say you know ib s or dysmenorrhea, painful periods or migraines, whatever it is, UM, and understand what that means from a Western perspective, but then also diagnose and

treat according to Eastern medicine or traditional Chinese medicine. I specialize in reproductive health, so I have an additional board sort of vacation from the American Board of Oriental Reproductive Medicine in UM Integrated Reproductive Health, and it is float Chinese Float, Chinese Medical Arts, yes, yes, flow Chinese Medical Arts. And you when you're not busy doing that, you're a

mom of two I am, and they howl. My kids are seven and nine, and they're gosh almost eight, almost ten, great, And I want to talk to you a lot about when we started to get close mere working together throughout my pregnancy. I was and still am very fascinated in the way in which you raise your kids, which I think is great for this episode, and I would love to talk to you about how you raise them really like through sleep, through food, all of your because I

know you worked with attachment parenting. You had a family bed, and I'm fascinated by these things because I've met your kids and they're awesome. So clearly the things you did were successful for you and your family. Um, can you talk to me how you came to the decision about a family bed and what is that exactly? Well? For me, Um, I grew up in New York City. My parents were

in the theater business. They're very had a very unconventional upbringing. UM, and I, you know, I was I felt like, well I kind of grew up, Okay, I'm well adjusted, Like what did they do? And I didn't honestly know apparently that I had a crib and everything. But my mom's like, yeah, but you were in our bed every night. Oh your brother was in our bed until he was six. So I just thought, well that worked. And then I also had other people in my life who were doing family bed. Um,

what is it? What is that? What does that mean? Basically? Bed sharing, there's okay, so there's room sharing and there's bed sharing. So now we know the American Academy Pediatrics recommends room sharing as of two thousands, sixteen, up until minimum of six months, preferably a year. How they say, so, even if you have your baby in a crib, the

a a p recommends crippy in the room. Now that's obviously not the right answer for everybody, but they came to that decision after a hole and my understanding is um after a lot of pediatricians were reporting, yeah, infant death from from kids from parents that weren't attentive to let's say they didn't have a monitor or you know, they were relying too much on it or wearing noise canceling iPhones or something. So so that said, I felt that I just wanted to be close to my baby.

I I felt that it would be hard to get up out of bed and go into another room and take the baby out of the crib and nurse and put the baby back. We also had a small two bedroom apartment at the time, when I had logically, logistically, you know, it didn't I feel like it made a whole lot of sense. The walls were you know, it's like a nineteen sixties building with paper thin walls. We would have heard the kid anyway. And I just wanted to sleep as much as possible because I knew i'd

be going back to work and all that. I also read a book I had to write down the title because I, um, I haven't looked at and so long, but it was called The Continuum Calm The Continuum Concept by Gene Leadloff from six. I read it probably in two thousand, um way before I thought about having kids, and um, the it's a it's a book by an anthropologist who went into essentially a pre industrial society and looked at how these parents were all functioned and they

all wear their babies. So then I looked into attachment parenting and I looked into how that's based on attachment theory. This is yes, but explained to our listeners what exactly is attachment parenting because you know, there are a lot of these trigger words when you're a new mom or when you're pregnant that you hear, like sleep training, the cryed out method, attachment parenting, a family bed, co sleeping.

These are all such triggering words that I think are like not what's fascinating is that you've done some of them, and can you explain what exactly attachment parenting is and that worked for you? I can't, and I feel like I didn't fully explain the answer to your question about family bed Yes, we will get that. So. Yeah, So basically, bed sharing is parents or caregivers in the same bed as the baby. Room sharing is maybe there's a sidecar, you in one bed with you and your husband and

your baby. And then when the second kid came around, we already had what's called a sidecar, a small um infant mattress on the floor, and our king bed was on the floor right next to him. Yeah, and so that but then shortly after my second kid was born there two years apart, he was like I'm out room. Oh yeah, he was like, this is you know this waking up in the middle of the night baby infant stuff, Like I'm over now the fear that people have about

like blankets, sheets rolling over on your baby. How did that just not happen? It doesn't happen. But there are safe sleeping guidelines and your listeners can look them up from Dr James McKenna. He actually wrote a great book called sleeping with your baby, A parent's guide to co sleeping, and so all of that is explained in that look. But you know, the long and short of it is, you don't have a lot of blankets. You don't have

blankets over the baby. It basically goes the breastfeeding parent, uh, and then and the baby some sort of bedrail or wall baby, breastfeeding parent and then other parent. So we actually that's the best way to do it. That's actually not what we ended up doing. The configuration of the of the room. We had dad on one side, baby in the middle, and me and we just baby didn't have our comforter over him. We made a U shape with the comforter god or we had two separate comforters,

depending on the time of here. You know here we are in Los Angeles, right, you don't really are, so, yeah, it's different than and so when the baby would wake up and make sounds, you would just roll over and lay down breastfeed he is right there. So the beauty of beauty of it is that you know with que feeding overnight is baby goes you know in roots and even at eight weeks self attaches and I'm like, oh, I guess he's nursing, you wake up and then you're

done and you go back to sleep. Yeah, so the nursing hormones, the oxytocin and all those feel good hormones really help me as the rest gating mom to go back to sleep. Sure, and and then you do that in a safe way. By not you don't obviously that there's a suffocation hazard if there's a big blanket over the baby, of course, so we would have our own little baby blanket over him, or a sleep sack or something like that, various things depending on the time of year.

If it was warm, then baby would just be in a sleeper without any blankets. And then when you gave birth to your second baby, how did the bed look there? So fascinating? Yeah so at I my toddler was still nursing. He I breastfed through my whole second pregnancy. Um oh yeah, you guys, Abigail as a champion who tandem breastbed. That's why I ever heard of that. That's two babies, one on each boob. Yeah, not always at the same time, although they were at the same time sometimes. Um, it

was just the second pregnancy was not. It took us by surprise. So they were two years apart. So the was a older kid who was too when my the second one was born, was at that time from eighteen months. From his age eighteen months until baby two was born, he was sleeping in a sidecar arrangement, so he was on the floor in a small baby mattress. Yeah, next

to our bed. So we would put him down at his bedtime six thirty or seven or whatever it was, and then we would go leave the room and go about our night, and then we would just go in and sleep in the family bed. And so when baby two was born, um, and I had both kids at home. So baby Nuver two was born. That my birth was super super fast. The whole thing was about an hour. Um. My husband had been putting my older kid to bed, the two year old, while I was realizing, holy shit,

I'm in labor. And then you know, an hour later later, the baby's born in the in the kitchen and water birth. This was a planned home birth, i should say, with a with a nurse midwife. Um. So then the next morning my son met the new baby and he just kind of toddled out of his little sidecar bed. Um. I think I had slept in the couch pull out that night, whatever sleep after, Like Superwoman, I can't just

what made sense? I mean? And and so when shortly after you asked how the sleep when the number two was born, so she we co slept with her and UM, and then after the first couple of nights, it became clear, Okay, so toddler really needs to continue having this eleven hour straight sleep which he had been getting, and UM and my husband needed sleep, And so I slept in the twin bed in my son's room, which he hadn't even

moved into yet. This is our two bedroom house, right, we upgraded, but it was still only two bedrooms, And so I slept in the twin bed with my daughter, the newborn, so that she could queue feed. That said she would go three four hours straight from newborn age, which you know, you can't really let a newborn more than four hours from when a breastfeed. So I had to sometimes wake her. UM. But she was a totally different type of breastfeeder than than her older brother was

UM and they are to this day. They eat in very different ways of different metalism. UM where he was just you know, like a hummingbird, nursing frequently and she was like whatever, I'm like, fast asleep. How did you? And then we all went into the family bed. I don't know, she was maybe a month old. I brought her back into the family bed and then I'm out. He was two years old, and he was like forget, was like moms up every four hours or less? Yea. And I don't even know if he knew that I

was up, because you know, it's quiet. It's not like the child is screaming right right, feed them when they're hungry. But he just I think that he was so completely appalled that there was another child to be joined the family. Was like, I'm going to just pretend this isn't happening. And so we gave How did you find? Um? How is it on a relationship? You know? I think that like I imagine I had the cozy moments of like, you know, because I didn't do Albie was. I was

really really sick after I gave birth. I had probably the worst cold and cough I've ever had in my entire life. UM, and so Albie was sleeping in his crib outside of my room from day one, UM with a night nurse. And I really still romanticized the idea of like the whole family being in a bed and all of these things. But realistically, since you have done it for a long time, you had a family bed, how does that look with your relationship, like with your husband?

Is it like? Do you know what I mean? Yeah, it's a good question. I'm sure it looks different for every family. I know it does because I have a lot of friends and family members who've done family bed and many of them even longer than we did. So I'm just going to speak from my own experience, but it was amazing when my first one was born, you know, it really was. And this is a kid who physiologically needed to eat every forty five minutes to an hour and a half until he was about a year old.

That was just who he is, and he would get super full fast. His kid is a newborn could drain abreast in five minutes for you guys, like it would take that sometimes at the beginning I would be breastfeeding for and I remember asking my midwife, who was also you know, lactation expert, like, what about twenty minutes per side? Isn't it supposed to She's like, honey, watched the baby,

not the clock, and that was the best advice I got. Right, So, in the light of all of these repeated surges of oxytocin and the feel good hormones that you know, our brain has the pituitary gland, which is between our eyes and the forehead, secretes oxytocin, which stimulates uter in contractions. So that's part of what helps the uterus go back to its normal size after giving birth and also stimulates that prolactin comes from there to stimulates the milk let down.

So every time you get that surge of oxytocin, the prolactin milk let down, you know, it feels kind of like being high, you know, you're a little bit in college, or I could just say it's you know, it's a really heavy or or like a post orgasmic feeling, except it's not sexual. It's just really feel you're all in bed, feeling swimming in you know, the cooked of of mother homoes. That's what you were feeling, and I was feeling. I

also felt a lot of anxiety right. Um. My husband and I were talking about this the other day that he's like, do you remember when we could you drop a fork in the kitchen and we would panic because we thought he was going to wake up because he was such a light sleeper. I can't. I mean, I'm oh my gosh. Yeah. So the first time was was was amazing, but it was also it also was not without its challenges. Did you feel that you got quality It sounds like you've got quality sleep in this situation

because you weren't having to get out of bed. I remember that to go breastfeed, like for you going back to work, it was all about logging the most amount of minutes possible to sleep, and that would mean having the baby right there next to you. Means you're not getting up out of bed to get the baby out of the crib and skin. It's better, you know, regulation of the breastfeeding mechanism, the you know, the letdown reflects

happens sooner when your baby's right next to you. Um. And then baby wearing, which we did during the day. And this is all in regards to attachment parenting, is what we're talking about. Can you explain a little bit about what that means? Yes, absolutely, Well, there's the eight principles of attachment parenting can be found from Attachment Parenting dot org, which is a not for profit organization. But basically it's based on attachment theory, which goes way way back.

But um, it's the psychological model that describes relationships between humans, and attachment theory is now the primary, the dominant theory used in child development UM, in infant and toddler mental health. This is what psychotherapists us. It's called attachment theory theory UM. And so we look at it in the West in terms of the diade, like the mother infant diade, but um, really we need to look at the whole world and see that in most cultures it's not a nuclear family. Right.

We're kind of forgive me, we're kind of fucked in because this whole idea of it's like one or two parents raising kids is not you guys, it really really is true? Yes, yes, um. So attachment attachment parenting looks at um being the a having a primary character, which usually ends up being the mother who gave birth. But

it doesn't have to be. I had a good friend whose wife went back to work at Disney as a producer like six weeks after giving birth, and he was they were attachment parenting, so she would they co slept and but he was the baby wearing dad and he was at the park with us and all of that, And so it doesn't have to be just a mom So it doesn't have basically means like that the baby is always close to you in proximity. Yeah, always and

most of the time. So baby wearing allows you to kind of go about your day while having the baby close to you. Baby would for me, baby would sleep on me, and we baby where I had like fourteen different baby carriers, um, and so some in the beginning were more appropriate to an infant, and then as the older Yeah, and then once I had you know, I got pregnant, I was wearing him more on my back um and then coast sleeping or bedshine. You are que feeding, wow,

And okay, so explain que feeding. This is also a whole thing. And then I want to get into a little bit about how you naturally got your babies sort of on a schedule on their own and because you did end up going you went back to work after the first kid. I went back to work about three and a half months after giving birth. But you know, I'm my own business owner, so I wasn't going back to work in the nine to six corporate office with an hour community each way, right, you were just having

your own hours. You do that plan, so you practice co sleeping attachment parenting. You would wear that, you would sleep with the baby on you for naps in your bed at night, and then you would wear him and her as you did stuff that the day. I should point out when my husband, my husband was the primary caregiver on when I went back to work, he would do the baby wearing, and on the weekends we both would and then when we had a babysitter, they would

wear the baby. Did you find there to be any sort of huge separation that happened or does the baby just decide like, mom, I don't want to be warned, like you know, when they start to really separate, look like yeah, yeah, it's it's clear. You know. Basically, I feel that it's important to look at the brain and brain development. And so when attachment theory looks at how

an infant responds when they are separated from their primary caregiver. Right, and so in in Africa, in um certain countries that are we might call pre pre industrial, you know, where they still have UM the I can't spacing on the word for it, but there's multiple mothers in the village still goes on in many parts of This idea of solitary sleep is less than a hundred years old, so to kind of just put that in perspective, if you think of how long we've been around as a human race.

So if a child is separated by themselves in the dark, scared, that goes into um, you know, what's called our implicit memory. So they look at it. This is more of Dr Dan Siegel, who's a psychotherapist and neurobiologist UM here in California, but um looking at how how the brain works, the amygdala, the hippocampus, the parts of brain that store our raw sensory memory. This is this stuff that's you know, pre verbal.

But if you let's say a child is attacked by a bear, you know, just because there's three months doesn't mean they're not going to remember, because it goes in there somewhere, of course. And so the same thing happens when a child is by themselves alone. Yeah, and and so the idea is not to never leave your child alone. But with attached and parenting, we are they you're really

looking for their cues of when they are ready. Like you carried this baby inside of you when they were not alone for ten months, and now the babies outside of you, and you keep them close and they will make it clear within when they are ready for any sort of distance. Is that sort of the well, yes, but also when the mom and the dad or the parents are ready exactly for whatever it is. Know, there's a there's a soothing approach so that the child is

associating going to sleep with being safe. If the child associates going to sleep with being in a state of terror and fear, then you can bet that kid's going to have problems later on in life with those implicit memories. Got it. So I saw that a lot because I worked with moms for so long before I became a parent, and I saw that, and I just didn't want that. You knew in your heart that that was not like

you were never going to be. For example, this whole cryed out method are letting babies really cry when they go to sleep fundamentally and psychologically to you. That didn't sit right to me and my husband, and we talked about it quite a lot, especially in pregnancy. You just knew that you were going to always put your baby to sleep in a state of comfort and peace and safety.

That was the idea. And then when eventually I nightleaned my my oldest child when he was about seventeen months, we used the doctor J Gordon, who is a pediatrician on the West side of California, Santa Monica, rather west side west side California, the west side. But yes, so what did you say? And um, and that approach is picking a seven hour chunk because the definition of sleeping through the night is about seven hours. Um, you know,

for a child under about a year. And he says, do not use this method under like twelve to fourteen months. But we picked a seven hour chunk because I was just tired of nursing all night through my pregnancy. Honestly, like that point, literally, I'm sitting here, you guys, I'm probably the most quiet I've ever been in any of the podcast because my mouth is on the floor, just a gape at like and that you look pretty and you're like well rested, and you did all of this.

I just can't even imagine it. Okay, so well, they do eventually sleep, but yeah, the idea was pick a seven hour chunk. And he says, you know, eleven PM to six am, yeah, exactly, um, and and when instead of it's gradual, but for us it took about a week and we did it with both kids. So instead of nursing to sleep, you breastfeed and then after eleven PM you don't breastfeed at all, and so you do shishing and patting their back, but it's still within the

family bed. So this approach is fantastic if you're doing family bed but you want to, you're ready to night lean your kids because you're making themselves feel safe and comforted, but not through food and nursing anything. And it doesn't have to be the quote primary parent, It doesn't have to be the mom as long as everybody's on the same page and you're really clear on your guide. So

when did you start to see a schedule? I'm assuming it started to naturally form because then you went back to work and I know that your baby was cared for by your husband and then also at daycare and things like that, Like, how did you continue this sort of methodology with really basically being sort of on demand and taking things off of cues of your baby, um when other people are involved, right, Well, we did dare daycareed in startil eighteen months, so I didn't have the

experience of infant daycare, which I know a lot of people who have. But I went back to work three days a week and two days my husband was on was the primary parent, and then one day we had a and you guys, who we saw eye to eye like he could do it, no problem. Yeah, we did, and we still did, and he would just feed a bottle before. The idea with que feeding is that whether you're bottle feeding or your breastfeeding, if you have listeners who have really tried to breastfeed but can't, you can

absolutely still do cue feeding. Whether it's with breast milk, your own breast milk that's pumped don't, or milk formula, whatever it is, it's food, and que feeding is basically like you think they're hungry, they're expressing that they're hungry. Feed. You learn their cues pretty quickly, just like you do with with when they need to poop, which is the

whole other conversation for another episode. But so I went back to work at three and a half months after baby number one was born, and um at that point he had really around I think about three months. He settled into a pretty predictable pattern of breastfeeding, of sleep. And I believe rhythm and routine are so important. Um. I love that sort of Walldorf approach of rhythm and routine. Um of you know, a Rudolf Steiner of babies love routine.

They can be you know, looking at the baby's cues, just like I explained, my first kid and my second kid totally different metabolisms. You know, one need to eat every and the only one could totally by six months was going like much much longer. So um, So we would watch their cues and then if it was a caregiver there, they would give a bottle of breast milk. Um. And then you know often wear the baby or or bounce on a ball and put them down to sleep

in their bed and then go about their business. Um and I do were to daycare, and they weren't on a set schedule, for example, like they weren't saying like we do nap time here for to dake care was until eighteen months. Okay, so by that time the baby was set one and a half year old. Yeah he was. I mean by the time he started daycare, he was probably waking up once a night, maybe twice a night to nurse. No. No, that's actually because we night wanted

seventeen eighteen months, so he was waking more frequently. But basically the full three full days a week of daycare when that started, um was about the time he was sleeping straight through the night, eleven hour straight. So no, they had a set naptime, you know, one to two thirty. And I've said, how the heck are you going to get fourteen kids to nap at the same time, and they said, oh, we just it happened. And they they're incredibly loving and they sit there and they pat their

backs and then it's contagious. All the kids are turn on that white noise exactly, and I couldn't believe it. I was like, oh my god. So, um, what did have you found to be the benefits of co sleeping? So the advantage is basically from when they night leaned, stopped nursing overnight, but continue nursing during the day. Um, they have not had any sleep aggressions at all, and so uh, and they have positive associations with sleep. They're basically they're not afraid of it. They're not getting in

a dark room and freaking out. The biggest issue now is but mom, I'm not done with this chapter. They want to keep reading, and we have a firm lights out, you know role, and I know, I know you want to keep reading. So I really take an empathy based approach to parenting and that just grows with them. You know. Now they're in second and fourth grade and their sleep

is absolutely crucial. So if anything, it's they don't want to go to bed soon, not even if they're still like in bed at seven thirty, that's a hard out for us. But they may be reading for an hour and a half and so you know, we have to turn the bedded seven thirty and then they go to sleep at nine. They might read well, I mean, my daughters out by eight fifteen most nights, but my son will push it as late as can. I be your kid, this is like, that sounds well, they have to be

up at six delicious school. So yeah, and I'm in bed bow. I treat a lot of insomnie in my practice, and a lot of the adults I work with did not have healthy sleep hygiene as kids, and so I think sleep hygiene, you know, however, that's defined, it looks different for every family. Is super important for setting us up as adults because the brain is so malleable. You know, it's not fully milinated until age seven. Um, what advice would you give to parents who might be looking into

making a choice like this. The number one piece of advice I would give is trust your instinct, Trust your intuition, because it's never wrong. And if you are married, and you're because a lot of the people I work with are going about this alone. Um, single moms by choice, But if you with your partner or the person that you're deciding to raise your kids with, make sure that you talk about all these questions first, not all of them, but many of them. How what do you want parenting

to look like? Did you do that with your husband? I did? Like you guys knew while you were pregnant, you had spoken about a family bed and attachment parenting and you had read books and I mean it was kind of hilarious. My my mother in law, Ga bless her through me a baby shower with a whole bunch of her friends that I had never met before. She said, so what's the nursery? Like? What is ther color theme?

You know? And I said, well, we were not going to have a nursery because we have a two bedroom apartment and one of them, one of the bedrooms was our office, right and um, and the other was our bedroom, and so we were She's like, okay, well, you know, are you going to find out the gender? I'm like, well, I'm not going to find out gender because there's no test for gender, you know. But we elected not to choose to find out the sex for my first so

we didn't know. So I literally got like thirty fantastic gifts that were all pink or green and um, and my my mother in law net this adorable white baby blanket for my son with a Raider patch on it because my huss a huge Raider fan. She's determined to have something in something, so I she was like, if I can't have a pick color, I'm gonna have a

blanket with a raider. And I love her. So the real thing, it's trust your instinct, which it's wonderful that I'm sitting here listening to because I I am such a libra in that. Yes, I'm just like very good at weighing out. Like I love being a part of this podcast because I love hearing how people do things.

And I also really am able to see way things out and so for me instinctually it can get hard because I'm like, well, I'm feeling this, but maybe it's that, but maybe it's this, but maybe yes, you know it's It's so good that you say that, because as a libra, I have the same thing. I'm always wanting to know the in and the young things, the plus in the

minus the cost benefit ratio exactly. And for a new parent, or you know, maybe a parent who had a kid nine ten years ago and is going to be doing it all over again and thinking maybe I'll do things different. You can go to the library, get books. Just it's you, guys. That's why I Abigail's brought up so many amazing points in this podcast that will all be listed in the

crib notes. Absolutely, and just I think follow your instinct and follow your your inclination to learn more about something, and ultimately you are the expert about your baby right nobody else's And it for me, resisting the mommy wars brought on a lot of anxiety. I felt judged. Whether or not I was actually being judged, I would feel anxious, Am I doing what's best for my kid? Can I

be any better. But I've learned now almost ten years into this, to just to surrender and let it go and detached with love and find acceptance with that uncertainty because ultimately, you know, we really can't control our kids. We can set no fee boundaries, I can try, but absolutely we can set healthy boundaries and you know, have a really good rhythm and routine in our day and all that and and um and then ultimately I think, I truly think a lot of the personality just come

into the world with it. Oh for sure, to know that a lot of them just kind of came out who they were really weird, they absolutely did. Yeah, I my mom and dad read this book by t Berry

Brazilton who just passed away at age couple of months ago. Um, and he's, you know, a world famous guy, but he was like the pediatrician and the post spock era who was started talking about this attachment theory and all that and my parents and my mom was like, I don't know, it just made so much sense and it was totally different with her from what her parents had done their six children. And that was that I saw that. I saw She's like she found a book. It lit a fire.

You know, she didn't. She said she felt like the only person in the world who had ever had a baby. She was an actress in New York. None of her friends kids, right, So I I took a cue from my mom, I think, and just following following my instinct, learning more about it, and then ultimately just letting it go. And you know, reading your baby and getting to know your baby and trusting that you know what's best for him. And and sometimes I was on the floor hysterically crying,

you know. I mean, that's the reality of it, no matter what you choose, whichever ways, And just because you choose something one day doesn't mean you can't change your mind another day. Also, by the way, at some point you're all going to be crying on the floor, and at some point you're all going to be laughing your grasses off. And that's just seems to be motherhood. It is. And whether it's a biological child or an adopted child, or you know, a grandchild or whatever, it's that same dynamic.

You have to just render into that powerlessness. I think I was actually just away without me and we had a nap in the bed with us for fun, and I felt like I couldn't really like get into a comfortable position, honestly, Like I was like, what about the blankets. I know we've already talked about this, but is that just something in time that you sort of figure out the best way position wise to sleep with your baby in the bed or was there something that you know

works every time that's written in a book. Um, well, you know, I will refer you back to the Dr James McKenna guidelines for Safeco sleeping because he gives good guidelines in general for everybody, but um and to avoid sids and all of that. But I think what I tell my patients to, especially if they're dealing with insomnia and the new baby, is find whatever is comfortable for you first, exclusive of the baby. I personally, I am a side sleeper. I've always left on my left side.

That's how I sleep, Except my mom says when I was a baby, I slept on my tummy. Um, I you know, find your pillow, blanket, combo on the mattress and then figure out how baby can work around that in a safe way, so that for example, with me, I would tuck the blanket under my legs so it wasn't anywhere near baby um. And it also has to be a firm mattress. We can't be dealing with a mushy mattress here or a big cushy mattress cover those

those don't fit the safe sleeping guidelines. So we had a super firm mattress, which is what we liked anyway. So find where your comfortable spot is and then if that's it kind of is easiest on the side. Because this is all keeping in mind that I learned how to nurse on my side very early once the baby. I think you taught me on my side. Remember, came over to do a postpartum um tune up acupuncture session and she was like, oh, you could just lay right

here and put the baby right here. And I was like, you can lay down and nurse. I only thought in the hospital, I had only learned that there was a football hold or the cradle hold right you could do. So you would be sleeping on the side. You get comfortable and figure out how the baby works into that. Because you're sleeping well and comfortably, so is the baby right And basically lined up baby nose to nipple or he was a little bit lower um, and that was

what was comfortable for me. Babies are very resilient. They will pretty much sleep anywhere, and so the advantage of bed sharing was that, you know, we did travel to see family, or we went on vacation, or we were in a hotel or what would and it would just the baby would just sleep where we slept, you know. And and this whole idea of a lot of people think of family bed means you go to bed when the kid goes to bed. No, you know, when they

were really little, bedtime was six o'clock. Sure, you would put the big kid down to six o'clock and then I would like rush to do laundry and make dinner and all of that stuff. The dirty secret of parenting is that that window narrows, you know, and then you end up with so much night hanno. Right now he goes to sleep at seven, and I'm really my seven to ten windows like huge for me. Atually it's like you know, when I see my husband and like when

I have a five glass of wine whatever. Well, the other thing is you get creative with where you are intimate with your partner, you know, I mean it's not list have to talk to other people, you know, you have to, especially when you have the second kid, and after the second kid comes, you know, it's super important not to lose that intimacy in that one at one

time date night became crucial. This has been so eye opening and so wonderful, and you are I'm just so happy to be sitting with you in my crib on my couch. UM, we both fitt're just the best. And thank you so much for all of your wise words and advice and personal experience. UM, you really appreciate it. Thank you, thanks so much for listening to Katie's crib. Don't forget to subscribe and tell your friends, tell your mom's friends, tell your mom's mom, mom's friends. You get it. Do