Parenting Lessons from Ancient Cultures w/ Dr. Michaeleen Doucleff

practices and different cultures of how to parent. I get the sneaking suspicion that here in America we are just, I don't know, like making things way harder than they have to be. So we have on today. Dr Michaelan Duclef She is a correspondent for NPR Science Desk. In two thousand fifteen, she was part of the team that earned a George Foster Peabody Award for its coverage of the Ebola outbreak in West Africa, and before joining NPR, Dr Dukeleff was an editor at the journal Cell, where

she wrote about the science behind pop culture. She has a doctorate in chemistry from the University of California, Berkeley. She is a master's degree in viticulture and analogy from the University of California Davis, and we're gonna be talking about her new book. It's called Hunt Gather Parent, What Ancient Cultures can teach Us about the Lost art of raising happy, helpful little humans. Let's hear about what other people are doing around the world. Um now, Dr Dukleff,

is that you can call me Michael. You can call me Michael. Okay, it's very very nice of you, guys. Michaelean, I absolutely I love that name. What is that? It's like the Irish form of like, like Kathleen or Colleen. It's like the feminine form of Michael. That's supposedly amazing. How never heard of that in my life. I think that Micheline, the French version, is more common than Michael. I mean, I love it. It's amazing. I am a

huge fan, um for all of our listeners. Dr mike Leen uh Duke Left wrote this amazing book called Hunt Gather Parent, What Ancient Cultures Can teach Us about the Lost art of raising happy, helpful little humans. Help, Boss, We're drowning, and by we, I shouldn't be speaking for everyone. I have to learn that me I'm drowning. Help Okay, first and foremost you are a mom to a glorious little girl named Rosie. Right, Yes, glorious is one way to put it. Dynamic, that's the word I used to

describe my three and a half year old son. Tell me about Rosie. Tell me about her temperament. Tell me how old she is. Have you always wanted to be a mom? Tell me all stuff. Um, so, Rosie is now five, but when we started on this journey, she was to two and a half three um, and she has always just been like hot tempered, fiery, fire in the belly kid, like the baby. It was like crying. And but then as when she turned into a toddler,

it was tantrums and you know, even physical abuse. I say, like, you know, she would have a tantrum and I would try to pick her up and hold her and she would just like slap me across the face. Even in public. It was it was awful to be honest with you and what we're what would you do? Like E then? Were you grasping at straws? Were you trying everything constantly screaming back time outs? Tell me all of your tactics.

I mean the first thing is just like run out of the store because I know I'm going to get like an onslaught of people like you know, shaming me or you know, but I tried everything. I've read so many books and I googled and read so many blog posts, and you know, I tried to really be firm or you know, set the boundaries. I think one of the advices was like, you know, grab the hand before it hits,

and it was just like I can't coordinated. It turned into just ducking, you know, like I literally would pick her up and like duck. And I felt actually like anything I did just made things worse. I really felt that way for a long time. I say in the book like I would lay in bed in the mornings and just kind of dread waking up having her wake up. Abs. Okay, first of all, if we're going to get real and get honest, which is what we do on this podcast, if you're a mother that has never felt like I

don't believe it. I just don't believe it, you're lying because every mom has had weeks, months, years, mornings evenings where they're like please don't wake up from the nap, or like I just I am not ready to start this day, Like when my son sleeps in and gives me an extra fifteen minutes. It's like, and I'm not talking about sleep. I'm just talking about fifteen minutes where I'm not seeing him and I love him. But like, if hard, it's hard, and it sounds like Rosie, it

was very hard. Yeah, And we didn't really have a We didn't even know it really because we didn't know anything else. We were just kind of like, oh, we're horrible parents. You know, we're totally failing. Like I'm with my husband and I we wouldn't say it, We're like, we're just the we're horrible. And also you would come from it's not like you were a parenting specially like any of this hat like before Rosie, Okay, you have a doctorate in chemistry from the University of California, Berkeley.

You have a master's degree in viticulture. Yeah, that's like winemaking. Yeah, so that helped somewhat. Yes, that and analogy from the University of California Davis. Like, it's not like you had any tools until you were thrown into it at to to figure this ship out. So tell me how you came to the idea of this book and how you

currently parent. So right at the same time that this was happening, just like completely independently, MPR, where I'm a correspondent, sent me down to the Yucatan in Mexico, to a small Maya village to do a different story, a story about children's attention. There had been some studies I'd read and I was interested in following up on that um And when I got down there, to be honest, I

mean I was just shocked at at the moms. You know, I spent most of the time with the mom's um in particularly this one mom Maria tumburgis like she has five kids, three girls that are four to twelve, and she related to them in such a calm, conflict free way. She was calm, but she was also confident, like she was in charge clearly um. But there was no yelling, no bickering, no negotiating, And her kids were great. They were kind and generous and super super helpful, And this

was common with many of the families. And I I left there just being like, is there a better way to do this than like what I'm seeing and what I've been taught and how my mom raised me, is you know what's going on? Like I want to learn how she does this. Um, I kind of left and I tried to find it in parenting books, and I started to realize we have such a narrow view in

parenting books, and I started reading more. And then I actually went up to the Arctic for another story, not about about anger actually, but but I saw a similar approach to relating to children, this very calm, confident way, very conflict free. And again the children were respectful and

kind and helpful. And so I started reading more and realizing, like, Okay, this is actually a really common way of relating to kids around the world, and in many ways, what we do in the US, many many Americans is the exception. And actually we're making our lives like much harder and uh, just so such an exhausting way of parenting. This is amazing.

I'm I'm already feeling relief. I'm like, you're telling me doing less could get me more, Okay, great, tell me, um, Okay, so you start to notice that in the Yucatan and in the Arctic people are parenting differently. Did you go other places? And when did you decide to write this book? So after the Arctic trip, I started to really read about childhood in different parts of the world and historically our human history, like over tens of thousands of years.

And what I started to realize is that there's this common way of relating to children. It's likely thousands of years old, the parents all over the world, every continent, have turned to over and over again. And yet and like the last hundred two hundred years, many families in the US have lost key elements of it for various reasons, and in place of it, we've kind of turned to these kind of crazy, strange, exhausting ways of relating to children that you don't find anywhere else in the world

or throughout human history. Many of these things I think are actually not only making us exhaustive, but I think they're also doing our children at disservice In some ways. I think they're causing anxiety and stress and depression. And so at that point I was like, Okay, I want to learn as much as I can about this um, mostly very selfishly, just because or Rosie, and for yourself and for your marriage and for like your like your skincare,

and like element lord um. And so then I actually it's not in the book, but I actually thought of taking her with me on these trips. So I was like, Okay, I'm gonna go back to the Maya village and back up to the Arctic, and I'm also going to go to a place where humans come from, where humans evolved in in Africa and East Africa and Tanzania. Um, and I'm gonna take Rosie with me, and I'm gonna see

if they can they can help me. You know, really, I would leave tomorrow, honestly, if that was an option right now, I would do the same. Okay, so you take Rosie with you to opposite ends of the world and what happens. You know. The first trip to to the U Tan was really hard. The trip was just kind of a nightmare. And I know those moms just thought I was the worst parent on the planet. But they didn't really tell me much. They didn't really u

shame me. They were you know, But but I could see how they interacted with Rosie very differently, and how Rosie settled under under their wings, so to speak. Especially Maria, like how that calmness really started to change her. That's when I started to really understand, like, oh, she needs me to be calm, she needs me to stop talking, stop telling her what to do and just kind of be there with this calm energy and all this stuff I'm doing to fix things and stop our tangerums. It's

the opposite. So what you were doing when she had a tangum, let's say, talking to her a lot, taking things away and like tell me what you would have done, you know, I mean it would start off very nice, like, oh, what's wrong? Are you okay? Or what do you need? Do you want something to drink or you don't want to you know, this kind of a barrage of words, nice, nice words, right, um, And then things would get worse, and then you know, it would turn into anger, right,

like why are you doing this? Now? You got to stop this? And it would very quickly escalate to anger. And then that was the worst, right because my anger like fueled her anger and then that's when she would like hit me or she was also biting me. Um. Nice, great, great great great. So the moms that you brought Rosie to in the Ukutan when they saw her doing this, what were the tactics they used? They actually left it

up to the kids to handle her, which was really interesting. So, like they were always kids around from four to sixteen and a lot of the kids would come over and start tickling her, and we have these pictures that were like lying on the ground, like three kids like tickling her, and yeah, it was actually really brilliant. She would run away and they chase her, and I asked her, do you do you like that? Because it looked like she didn't like it, but she was like, I love it, Mama.

It was so fun and it did. It stopped it like instantaneously. And I actually when I really was getting angry at her after that, Like if I just had a lot of anger and I didn't know what to do with it, I would start tickling her. Tell me the major three, let's say, differences between our Western civilization parenting versus what you found in Tanzania, Yucatan, and the Arctic. Yeah,

so the number one is calm. So when we got up to the Arctic, this wonderful woman Elizabeth to Kumiyak, she was our interpreter, and she really showed me how to handle Rosie's tantrums. She started to realize, this woman really needs my help, and she started to show me like what to do. And so one day Rosie was having a tantrum in the road, Um. It was about ten o'clock at night, the sun was still up because it's an arctic and she just walked over to her

like so calm. She hardly said anything. Her voice was down here, and she said, in the sweetest, softest voice, Rosie, do you see the sunset? The pink in the purple? And it was the I mean, a calmness that we I rarely ever see in my life, you know, I mean just everything went down her face like lost expression, and it was incredible, Like Rosie just stopped, she just stopped screaming. I saw this happen a couple of times, and I was like, oh, this is really what she

needs me to do. Um. And when I got back, I read about it, and I read like, how, you know, there's a lot of science behind this that kids emotions and energy state mirrors ours, and so when we come at them with all these words, even if we're trying to be nice, you know, it's just raises their energy and raises that level. Um. So that is the first thing. It's just how little words are often used and how calm parents are around young kids. Um. And I think

that teaches children to be calm. Of course, it's amazing and how to regulate their own emotions before they take any sort of action, which is a great reminder for us as well. Okay, what else, So the other big, big thing is about what kids rules are in the house. So we have this sense often that kids need to be entertained or educated or stimulated kind of we need to manage their schedule and we need to keep them busy, we need to fill up their time, right like, oh,

what are we going to do this weekend? Um? And this idea is really strange. I don't think any other culture in the world or throughout human history has has thought of kids this way. It's up to kids to manage their time. Um And. So other cultures don't have these like child centered active These like Mommy and Me aren't class or kiddy museums or special birthday parties like activities that are designed just for kids and the parents would never do if they didn't have a child. Oh

my god. So like I don't have to go to Lego Land because I don't want to go there on my vacation. You know what I mean? You know you don't have to go, and I am no longer going. I stopped going to birthday parties even you know, before the pandemic, I stopped going to kidding museums. I'm like, I'm done. I'm done with these things. They are not good for our children, and I don't want them. Wow, this is fascinating. So it's like so in other cultures,

it's like, Okay, them being bored is a good thing them. Yeah, having nothing to do is a good thing. Then being overscheduled is a good thing. I mean, it's a terrible thing. Under scheduled is a good thing. Tell me more, tell me more on this. So this is what I learned largely with with the Maya families. So the kids go to school, right, they go to school, um, but it's what they do after school and on the weekends. So

the parents just go about their lives. They have like hobbies, they work, they socialized, they do all the things that they do you know before they had kids. And they let the kids kind of hang out and tag along if they want, as long as they are somewhat appropriately behaved. And if they're not, you know, they tell them they have to go, they have to go back home, or they have to go you know with a relative. Um. But they try to teach them to be in that

adult world. They let them participate in the adult world. I think this does a couple of a couple of things. I think first of all, it teaches children how to grow up and mature right and how to act when you know, in adult places. But too, I think it teaches kids to cooperate and work together with their families, which I think is something we have really lost. I think kids, when when they're constantly scheduled I'm catered to, yes, exactly, cater to, they turned into these like v I P

members of the family. So when you try to go get them, you know, to wash the dishes or help with the laundry, they're like, but that's not my job. Yeah, talk to me about chores. Have you seen a chore chart in the Yucatan. I'm gonna guess not. No. So when you have a kid places other than America, the kid comes along and as a part of your life,

not vice versa. Okay, so you're taking the kid to your wine tastings on a Saturday, or you're hanging out in a friend's house, like, they come and they better be fucking well behaved otherwise we have to leave Like this is this is my life and I am not living in yours right, right, So it's really interesting. One, there's no the child centered activities, right, it's just activities

for the family. But the second thing is is that the kid, starting from the time that they can walk, are expected to help a little bit with basically all housework, in all work. It goes on. So from the time that they start to walk, parents told me, and this is also documented in a bunch of research, they'll say, like, you know, go grab my shoes, or go, you know, go give this to your father. Right, So they're already starting to teach the child how to help and work

together with them. And then as the child gets a little bit older, the task get a little bit bigger. At the table, you have to clear your plate, come help me make dinner. You have to take your dirty laundry and put it in the laundry machine or whatever. Okay, So I'm a firm believer in this um. We had an amazing author on the show who was basically like the two things that in Western culture that we can

point to that make a successful and adult. And I don't mean successful in terms of money, I mean successful in terms of like being relationships and have like you know, and and good mental health. Yeah exactly is they had a part time job and or always did chores around the house and and so I am about that. I'm about that. But I don't want to make a church chart. I didn't grow up with one. I really don't want

to do a gold star situation. But I do have a kid who when I'm like, let's help with this, he says no. So so the how old is he? How old are be? In a half? Okay? Okay, So the church chart is problematic, some would say. Some psychologists would say, because it basically teaches the child these are your tasks and your only tasks, right, And what the Maya families are doing are teaching the child to pay attention and look around and see what needs to be

done and then help other people, like what who needs help? Right? So they're teaching them a really like bigger skill. It's called a comma dido or hamadida. It means like, I'm paying attention. Oh look my mom started doing the dishes, let me go over and help her, or you know, oh look dad's carrying the groceries, and let me go grab a bag. Right, So they're teaching like cooperativity and

and how to be a good family member. Where's that short chart kind of just says, Okay, you're supposed to like sweep on Thursdays and do the dishes, and also why do you get a reward for that? I don't get Oh yeah, do you know what I mean? Like that, absolutely all know that trickiness from the potty training podcast we did. But it's like, oh God, you are digging

yourself into a hole. Because your kids smart, so if you gave them a gummy bear for that, they're going to expect at least a gummy bear next time, if not too. Yeah, And psychology shows like if you actually want kids to do something, voluntarily giving them a reward will like backfire, right yeah. Also, I think with the short thing it's really hard. Like I'm thinking about my own household and how you know a lot of times pay errants do the cleaning everything like that because it's

just faster. Right. Yes, this is huge. It's my patient's problem where it's like I'll be sitting right here and he's told me he's bored, and I'm putting laundry and the laundry machine. It's like Okay, hell, can you sort the dark colors from the from the white colors and put the dark colors like? But I know that that's going to take an additional ten minutes. But I feel like, going back to what you said about the calmness, I do such a better job at this on Saturdays and Sundays.

And so I feel like this is such a bigger issue of how we are as a civilization right now, in how fast we do things. The phone this in our face, the need to get things done, the need to do a thousand things in a day, and it sort of goes very much against what our children need us to be, which is calmer, slower, Yeah, to do everything together as a family unit. And is this making

it doesn't sound correct? I think you're absolutely right. I think, um, there's definitely more patients with kids what I saw, not infinite patients, but a little bit more. The thing for our family is, since I chucked out the like kiddy museums and birthday parties, the activity is the chores great, So I'm like, that's it. Kids like laundry on Saturday morning, you know, dinner is the afternoon, you know? Is the activity.

So so I've given yourself a lot more time because I'm just like, we're not rushing around to some event that I don't want to go to. Right, great, great, great, this is great. Yeah. So definitely I had to learn to have more patients, there's no doubt. Um. But I also stop scheduling us so much so that I could have that a little bit more and really absolutely on the weekdays like sometimes I've just like got to get this done, you know, you know, um with your your

three year olds. Really interesting, I would say, So this is something that actually the Hadzabe parents in Tanzania that I saw taught me, um, really really showed me. Um. It's it's tiny, tiny tasks that teach these little ones and even teach adults like partners who don't know how to cook and clean very well. Okay, yes, so like tiny tiny So instead of like sort the weight in the black, put this shirt in the washing machine, right,

is more than enough? More than enough? Or like instead of at the table, it's hand the plate and say put this plate on the table. And I think this does two things. When it's so simple, they're more likely to do it right, and too, they can accomplish something and contribute really fast, and then they're hungry for more. This is like the Hatsabe mom. Like wherever we went the moms, they'd hand a little five year old something to carry, or you know, they'd say go get a bowl.

Like it was these I need tiny little childs carry this little piece of wood, right, And I was like, oh, I'm over overthinking this. This is just like so with the husband. It's like, grabbed this from the fridge, cut this garlic, you know, Chop this garlic. You know. It's like these little tasks. They get them included and teach them the skill at the same time because they're there with you. Did you notice a huge change in Rosie and her being by implementing the things you collected from

around the world. Oh my god, incredible transformation. Like so the calmness ended the tantrums from like one or two a day to like one or two a month in several weeks really just plummeted. Um Yeah, incredible. I mean it took It was more my effort, right, it was me learning not to get angry at her and how to do that. Um. But once I did and kind of convinced her I wasn't going to get angry. She just she just stopped like it was. It was really

amazing wo and then including her in these tasks. So I definitely saw a change when we stopped doing the child centered activities. Like her behavior was always kind of bad after those, Like you know, she was like overstimulated over sugar. Yeah exactly, and I was too, So it was just like a bad combo um. But now we Yeah, so a couple of days ago, she was really acting out.

She was trying to climb on the roof and she was up on the roof and it was just like and I know, and I said that, And actually so our neighbor came over and I was like, oh, they're coming to visit us, and it was like, no to tell us the kid was on the roof, and I was like, ohious, But I said, you know what, she needs more responsibility, She needs to have more more of

a role. And so I said, all right, Rosie, would you know, would you like to go up and get us some milk from the corner market, just like two blocks away in the city. And she just like her eyes got a wide and was like yeah, you know, amazing, And so I actually followed her. This is what I learned from Maria and the Yukotan like I followed behind, she couldn't see me, and she took the dog with her, and the dog knew I was there the whole time. And it kept turning around, being like, what are you

doing lady? You know? But and she did it and it was she was great. You know. We we we have taught her across the roads and it changed her her behavior totally. She was needing more responsibility. It's so interesting. We're so protective here. I I hear about other cultures and kids like cooking themselves an egg by five years old, you know what I mean, Like they already know how to do all this ship and like we're sitting over here still cutting our kids steak by the time that twelve,

you know what I mean. It's like, um, can you talk to me about what team parenting is? Yeah. So it's kind of something I just came up with at first, so I could remember these things while I was, you know, in those hot button moments. But it's kind of this common element that you find around the world and in pockets of the United States. Now. Um, but a way of relating to a child that's based on collaboration instead of conflict and power struggles. So the first thing is togetherness.

There's a lot of evidence that shows that kids are really hardwired to do things with you or another caretaker. And I want to emphasize in many cultures, the mom and the dad play a much smaller role in children's lives than here. When I hear this ship, I'm like, we're so fucked, Like this is why we're drowning. I mean, this is why this podcast exists, which I'm so grateful for. But it's like we are literally being asked to do the impossible. It's like everyone says it takes a village,

no literally, and we don't have one. At least it takes like four people. You know, It's ridiculous. It's absolutely ridiculous. I mean, obviously, we're in a global pandemic and that is unprecedented in terms of the selation we are dealing with. But it was bad before then in terms of what I mean. I I was so lucky to go to Morocco to shoot something right before the pandemic hit, and I took my son and we went to a dinner party with the Moroccan family and there were just a

bunch of kids running around. I didn't know where my child was, and they said, oh, don't worry, the older kids have got him. And I was like, this is the best. I don't have to like pay a babysitter or find something who I've had over before, so I could teach them all the rules of Albie and weren't know He's going to tell them what he needs. All the kids know and they'll come get me if there's an issue. This is so this is super common around

the world. Like even when we went up in the Arctic, mom and dads were just like, what you're with your child like all the time, she's sick of you, Like that's why she's grippy, and that's why we don't want to get up, that's why we you don't wake up for much longer because it's like, yeah, we're all drowning and we all don't want to be with each other this much. They literally brought like two or three kids over and we're like, take her, take the child. This

woman needs a break. She got sucked in just like you were talking about, and I didn't see her for like five hours, best five hours of your life. We love our children so getherness for a team means like like we're constantly trying. So this is one of the big paradoxes in American parenting is we value independence in our children and we're always trying to get them to be independent, but we do not give them any independence.

But we'll get to that to say it. But we always are kind of forcing kids to do things by themselves, right like and and this this goes against their natural instincts to work with their family and work together and be cooperative. Um. And I also want to say that togetherness is not entertaining and stimulating the child. It is simply being near the child. It's this like coexistence, like

you do what you want to do. I'm gonna do it what I want to do, and we're gonna kind of leave each other alone and help each other we need it. So it's a very like peaceful coexistence. It's just focusing on together instead of everyone. You know, you go do the laundry, and I'm going to go, you know, vacuum the floor. No, we're all going to work and vacuum clean up the living together. And then we're gonna all go do you know the laundry together. This thing

switching from kind of individualism to more of a cooperative mindset. Wow, okay, and then we have e for encouragement. This is big. Tell me about this. This is hard. This is so hard. So this is the idea that no one likes to be forced to do something. I don't like to be forced. You don't like to be forced. Why would our kids want to be forced to do anything? But that doesn't mean we don't try um. And so instead of forcing them,

we encourage them. And the book gives like a whole suite of tools for encouraging the right behavior um instead of forcing it, you know, with punishment, scolding vibes. There's all these things we can do. So you're a little three year old, you could tease him a little bit if he says no, you know, you could say, you know, oh, because you're a baby, Yeah, you don't help around the house. You know, there's like a lot of things you can say.

Great though, like those sort of things make you look down upon, like you're a bad mom if you say stuff like that. And I'm like, yeah, but he has said no a million times and he doesn't want to help, and he's being a little ship and like Yeah, he's being a jury. Yeah. Like I would put up with that from anybody, and I would be like, oh, no, you don't want to help because you're being a baby, Okay, and then I walk away and then guess what he's going to do. He's gonna want to help. I promise

exactly exactly. They don't want to be babies, okay. So E for encouragement and then A is for autonomy. Yes, this is a big one, um. And so this is the idea. We think independence and autonomy are the same, but a lot of psychologists would say they're different. And here's how. So to me, is like being able to make your own decisions, or at least feel like you're making your own decisions from moment to moment and your schedule. Right.

This feeling is connected to all these wonderful mental health things, you know, decreased anxiety, decreased stress, confidence, self sufficiency, all these great things. Um. But autonomy also means that you're looking out for other people. So it's being able to make your own decisions, but you're not disrespecting other people.

You're helping if they need it. So it's a constant looking towards others and making sure you're contributing, but at the same time, you know, feeling like you're the captain of your own team. This is something actually that's super common and one of the key values of hunter gatherer communities all over the world and is likely the way humans and human children have have been raised for like hundreds of thousands of years. Give me an example of

how you would practice autonomy with a kid. So I've really started to understand this in Tanzania, to see the mom and dad's there, the way that they treated their children. And I actually started to count how many things they said to children per hour. And there's a study that does this in another hunter gatherer community in the Congo Basin. Yeah, so like any input, so praise, instruction, commands, and it was like around two or three per hour. And what

are we in America? Sixty? I started clocking mine and I was in over over sixty and I just gave up, My god, this is not gonna work. This is a problem. This is a problem. You know what when I started doing it, so I started trying to do it, like Okay, I'm gonna like time myself and give myself one per twenty minutes, you know, and it's incredible how how good the relationship becomes. Wow, because you can also use non verbal cues, right, you can like give them looks and

you can take action yourself touch them. Um. But once I started really practicing three commands per hour, things really changed between me and Rosie. Wow. And I relaxed. I relaxed because I was like, you're like, well, yeah, like I don't have to do I don't have to do it, and we don't yeh, we don't. She was fine, she has not been injured. Yeah, she's fine. Like so, and then does autonomy look like, hey, I'm gonna give you two choice, Like he doesn't want to get dressed again,

I'm gonna give you two choices. Either I can get you dressed or Daddy can get you dressed. So that idea of choice and things, I think it came around in the seventies. I think that was our idea of like trying to give children autonomy. It's kind of bullshit. Why because you're still very You're still deciding for them. R I'm still just giving them two choices. That sucks. So we're still in charge, in charge. That's so funny.

But you know, I think another thing it's done is it's made us depend so much on choice, which is also crazy. Kids do not get like, you know, in the choices for food or activities or whatever. It's just like, this is where we're eating, this is where we're going. This is what you're wearing. Yeah, exactly, you have you have tin shirts. Just get dressed like wow. Um. And then the m is for so this is the bigger one,

like minimal interfering. Minimal interfering. So we kind of or I kind of my knee jerk reaction is maximal interference, you know, like how can I jump in there and shape the situation is quickly and sure as much as possible. Um. But the idea is like this isn't free range, so this isn't you know, you throw your hands up and the kids just do whatever this is. I'm gonna step back, I'm gonna watch, you know, make sure Rosie's okay, and only really step in and help when she really needs it.

And then it's even a very gentle, unintrusive help. Um. You know, it's learning to be kind of in the background a little bit and let kids explore and learn on their own, which again is something that the kids have been doing for our hundreds of thousands of years and only really being there when they really need it. It's a way of collaborating with somebody. You're watching what they're doing and building off of what they're doing, instead of being in charge of it and managing it. Why

do you think this happened? Why did this happen? What happened? So one of the big things that happened, and I talked about this a little bit in the book, is that the rise of individualism, I think is one thing. But one of the big things that happened is I don't know if you saw in the book, but this

whole idea of the Catholic Church's obsession with incest. Right, So, five h years ago, the Catholic Church decided that it wanted to prevent incests, so it would it prohibited marriages between like cousins or which was reasonable, right, you don't want to marry your cousin. But over time it like extended out to like six cousins and in laws, and which is you know, there's no you can marry your

six cousin. You're totally fine, right, um, But so it started to big families exactly like cracked our big extended families. You know, everywhere in the world people live in extended families, intergenerational groups, neighbors, you know, live with each other. It's much more communal um. But there's good evidence that this the Catholic churches prohibitions on marriage UM led to the

arise of the nuclear family. And so now we think of this like, you know, one a mom and a dad with two kids and a dog's like the ideal family. But it's in my no means traditional. It's very new and in many days, like you said earlier, it's just studying set exactly. I went to East Africa to we were in Kenya and we were in a village where it was multiple wives sort of a situation interest and I was like, this looks amazing. I know, I know, I was just wait what I was like, this is

so great. I was like, there are so many I mean, you guys get what I'm saying, though, I mean, it was just like I don't want to share my husband with anyone. But I definitely I definitely was like, you know, there were with a friend, so great, like all the children were all the different women. Oh, but let's talk about that one how did your UM spouse react to your findings from around the world? And did uh did

he get easily on board? Like? How do I come out of this podcast and then tell whoever you're raising your children with, if you're lucky, lucky enough to even have one other caregiver that's responsible for your child, whatever that looks like in your household, how do we get this person on board? Because I feel like it doesn't work unless everyone's in you know. I really quickly realized, like, Rosie is never going to want to do the dishes

or volunteer to help with the laundry. If my husband and I we've been married almost twenty one years, oh my gosh, if we argue over these things, and we do. We did write like we were arguing over who's doing the dishes, who's doing the laundry, like no, no, when they're Rosie didn't want to do them, like we don't want to do them right, And so I quickly realized, like, Okay, I've got to teach him and me with him, the same things that I'm teaching Rosie, Right. I got to

teach him to cooperate with me and work together with me. UM. But I also realized that I couldn't force it right, I had to use the e like. It had to be this encourage, it had to be this like really slowing sure, and you know it worked, It worked really well. I basically applied the same techniques with him. Amazing, it's rosy. But so this is great. This could work for anybody. Guys, this, these skills, they can work for anybody. Yeah, you know

a little teasing like, oh you're being a baby. Yeah, hilarious, Like I just say, he did not like that one. But you know, you know who is being unhelpful or it's unhelpful. So I was very very um I would say, slow and patient about it, because these are deeply rooted behaviors, right. Yeah. And also I mean along same but different lines, like when you went to these places, I'm assuming the men were not involved, you know, that's a great question. So

it depends on the place. In a lot of hunter gatherer groups, the men do like the child care, so that there's some like support that it's very ancient that men helping with child care is a very ancient thing. Um. You know in other groups, you know, women did much more. Um, but with the hot sabbe then the dads were incredible. Rosie not even called one of the dad's super dad, Like he was just so great with the babies. You know.

He'd hang out and hold the little toddler and the babies for like hours by the fire and you know, no entertainment, no, no, you know, anything, and they would just sing and be together. And there wasn't like fifteen lego sets in front of them, no, No. One time we watched a dad and Tie and his his daughter Bailey sit by the fire for two hours, like just being together. How do you keep this up if Rosie's playing with other kids? That that is a very interesting question. Um,

I used the methods on them. You do, Yeah, I bet you do. Yeah, And you know. And it's the good thing about the book is now the moms have read it, so they like kind of know where I'm you know, where weird all comes from and everything. But it it's gotten easier because I think I found a few parents that really have a similar philosophy and um, similar goals, right exactly. I kind of weeded it out like Okay, this mom is really too controlling and I

can't take it, you know, and it's just not gonna work. Um, and that's made it a lot easier because now we're kind of all on the same page. That's great, That's really really great. Um. Would you say that staying calm was the most difficult undoing for you? What what was the what was the most difficult undoing and what's been the toughest to put into practice? Yeah, decreasing my anger? Right.

So in the Inuit, moms really were the one and dad's were really the ones that taught me this, like, it's not about suppressing your anger, it's about generating less anger and you in the first place. And so I was trying to get Rosy stop biting me, and I said something to this this mom, Lisa Appoli. I said, you know, but she's pushing my buttons or manipulating me. And she literally like laughed at me. She's like, she's not pushing your butN she's too you know, she's just

she's I'm just perceivingous. And what they told me it was like children are irrational, illogical beings, and whatever they're doing to you, it's not personal. It's just they're irrational, and it's your job to show them, through calmness and maturity how to behave. UM. And so when she started getting angry or you know, like she she hit me, you know my husband start to get angry and be like, look, she just doesn't know, she doesn't know yet. We have

to teach her. And so I by shifting kind of how I think about the child instead of assuming like a nefarious motivation. UM, I just say, you know, she doesn't know, she doesn't know yet. I've got I've got to show her. Um, and getting angry is just going to show her how to get angry, right right right. I still get angry, but I've learned to make it really short and quick. Great, hey that's huge. Yeah, and then just move on, you know, move on, move on,

just move on that. I mean, everything that's like really tooving is a phase. Everything is a moment. Everything is getting to another moment. Um. Aside from gifting every parent a copy of your book, which I'm going to be doing for all of my pregnant mamas in my life right now, um, and just everyone, I mean, this was so helpful. What have you found helps, um, fellow parents get out of the Western mindset and open to implementing these methods? How do I get someone on board? Yeah?

I mean, I think especially with the little ones, welcoming them into the work of the house is huge. That's really like the gateway drug into the book. Like getting them, you know, involgue in the dishes and the cooking and the laundry, taking them to the supermarket and teaching them knowing it might not work like you like it at first, but I've got to guide them and teach them. I've

heard from a lot of readers that this has transformed relationships. Um, Like you know with strong will kids, they just want to help. They're upset because they're unemployed in the home. Want a job. That's so funny, that's hilarious. They're unimportant, they're upset and they want the responsibility they do. They want to be trusted, they want to contribute, they want

their responsibility. Um, what advice, like any last like any last things that I did not hit on that you can bestow on us from all of your genius studies from around the world. I think a big thing for me and Rosie was I just stopped arguing with her. I really did, Like, there's no negotiation, there's no arguing. If you look. This is well documented in the literature Western culture is the only culture that argues with children like, oh, my god, what is wrong with us? And by us? Me?

I don't know. And I also knew this study where this woman documents in l A actually this conversation this dad has with a kid about tying his shoes, and it just you see it on the page. You're like, this is ridiculous. Like, you know, if I feel a power struggle or negotiation or anything that's like an argument, I just like tap around the shoulder and say, you know what, I'm not gonna argue with you, and I walk away. I'm trying that tomorrow. My son wouldn't leave.

He's in he's just started preschool this week and really really didn't want to leave because he's having so much fun. And we had to leave quickly to get and be here in time for this podcast. And I was like, we have to leave, Yeah, right, never gonna happen. The kid's gonna have a fucking tantrum, he's getting upset, blah blah blah. So the teacher says, you know what I'll be I'm gonna let you borrow one little car and you'll bring it back to school tomorrow, you know, And

my son's like, no, how about three cars? And she's like, all right, I'm gonna change my plan and we're going to give you two cars. And he's like, no, no, I want three cars and she's like no, I said one, then you said three, and now we're landing it too. And I'm like this is taking fifteen fucking minutes, like and like why why we should have just said we're

fucking leaving. And I walk out the door. One or none kids, That's what I said, one or none, kid, I'm out of here, like you can sleep outside at school, like I'm out, Like I just yeah, I think it's gotten I've gotten out of control with the negotiating and the arguing. It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. Three and a half year old, It's like, it's so ridiculous. You know, you asked, like why are we doing it? And it's something we

didn't touch on much. But I think a problem is who we're looking to it for advice is too narrow, Like we've just decided that these are like particular experts, you know, with agrees or not degrees. And we've also relied too much own science, which is really bad at

a changing behavior and helping us with behavioral issues. One of the things that I hope the book does is say, oh, look, we need to value a lot more voices in this parenting world, and we need to we need to kind of reconsider who we think is an expert, because our advice comes from this incredibly narrow view and it's gotten us in this weird often this weird tangents, in this weird world of negotiating with a three year old over trumps. I mean yeah, and then I was like five minutes late,

and I was like, are you joking? Like that's what I spent my afternoon doing. This is ridiculous, Michaelan, take your time, Philip sentence. For me, parenthood is oh, that's a that's hard. I know, I know. I want to say like as hell on Earth, that's probably not pair. Parenthood is like everything I'm gonna say is going to sound cheesy. Hey, that's okay, that's okay, okay. I think for me, parenthood is learning to back away, wait a

bit before interfering. It's about learning to have confidence in other people, including little ones, you know, confident that they know what they need and they're they're gonna go get it. Um, that's that. M It's been a mole interference. I really parenthood for you is the team situation. I think parenthood togetherness, encouragement, autonomy, and minimal interference. Yes, you nailed it. Which, by the way, like I'm saying it out loud to you so that

I can repeat it to myself. You guys, team togetherness, encouragement, autonomy, minimal interference, and we all know. Thank you to Michael and her book and this podcast what team means. I cannot thank you enough Michaeleen for coming on Katie's Crib. This was so helpful and so informative and very eye opening. It's honestly a relief. Yeah, I'm glad you say that

I felt that way. I have felt that way, like like because I just think it would be such a relief to go into parenting this afternoon and tomorrow just like doing less and being remaining and remaining really calm and just moving on and when there's terrible bad behavior, it's like I'm not going to tolerate that and we're done, like I'm not walk away. Yeah. I think it's really really excellent. Um, thank you so much for coming on

Katie's Crib. Michaelean universe and everyone get Hunter, gather parent, Thank you wonderful, helpful, enjoyable, and it feels like a massage. It's like the stress level just comes down. Thank you so much. Thank you guys so much for listening to Katie's Crib. I hope you enjoyed the episode with Michaeleen. Please share, subscribe, tell your friends about it, and also I want to hear from you. Send me an email

at Katie's Crib at Shawnda land dot com. Katie's Crib is a production of Shonda land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from shann Land Audio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. You never know, I'm tell you track mean