Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shonda Land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. In many states, it's this sort of same state that is doing things like not wanting to take the child care money, not having a paid leave conversation, that same state is rolling back reproductive healthcare. There's an opportunity to join together and fight for a different future. And the strategy of sort of making people feel powerless is how nothing gets done. We
are super powerful, That's so right. Yes, I do feel fired up. I'm pissed and powerful and powerful. Please note that at the time of our recording back in February, we talked a little bit about the President's Build Back Better Bill. The framework of this bill included things like child care, universal preschool, and paid family leave. A number of things have changed since then, and the bill is currently stalled. We're keeping an ear to the ground for
what's next for legislation at this time. Hi everybody, and welcome back to Katie's Crib. Today. I have so many questions, and I'm so exhausted and overwhelmed. There's so much change and advocacy going around, and I know we all have fatigue, but I was like we gotta get Fatima goss Graves on here to lay it out in Layman's terms of how our listeners and myself can better advocate for women,
pregnant women, and families in the workforce. Fatima gos Graves is a nationally recognized leader in the fight for gender justice and an expert in law, policy and culture change. She is President and CEO of the National Women's Law Center, president of the National Women's Law Center Action Fund, and a co founder of the Times Up Legal Defense Fund. Fatima has a distinguished track record working across a broad set of issues central to the lives of women and girls,
and health and reproductive rights and workplace justice. She's appeared as a legal and social commentator on CBS, MSNBC, BBC, CNN, BBS, and NBR, and has been published and quoted in numerous outlets. A teamer resides in my favorite city in the country, Washington, d C. Fatima, thank you so much for coming on Katie's cribt. You have worked hard and you are working hard to be where you are. Tell me how how
did you get into public policy? So I should begin that I think one of the reasons I was able to stay at the National Women's Low Center for a long time, and I've been here for over a decade and a bunch of different roles. Is because the Law Center values caregivers and always has so I was able to have two babies and do work I felt passionate and about, and take time for leave and tap in and out in various ways. In the truth of the matter is, you can't do that everywhere in this country.
And so that made a difference for me in my career that the Law Center invested in me early and I was able to to stay connected to work right. But you know, I sort of came up at a time with a really deep understanding of gender and racial justice. And I feel really really lucky to be able to do this work any time, but especially in times of crisis.
And so when I think about the pandemic. In the early days, we gathered as a staff and talked about what we knew people were facing and what we expected to come and many folks on staff were experiencing those same things, and so the issues are personal for us, and it's why we're invested, and it's why we stay in the work. It's why I stay in the work at a picture of what the pandemic has done for women in the workforce and a picture of where we
are currently at. You know, the pandemic revealed so many problems that didn't just begin with the pandemic, but it really show a bright light on it. It highlighted the fact, especially for women of color, that they were disproportionately in
jobs that we call frontline and essential. But these are also jobs that were basically low age and low paying jobs, and that mattered a lot in the pandemic when a lot of people lost those jobs and when women didn't have a lot of savings or safety net to fall back on. The pandemic also highlighted the invisible work of care that mostly women do, both care in their homes, caring for your loved ones, your children, your elders, but also that women and mostly women of color, disproportionately care
workers and are sisters. Um just broke. And the pandemic of course highlighted how fragile our health infrastructure is and was, And what it meant is that I especially for women of color, they were disproportionately ill and the workers, the frontline healthcare workers were also a lot of women. So you had this crashing down of care and health and
income security and frontline jobs all at once. And I think it's what made up the sort of you know, with the New York Times called the Primal Scream, and what your neighbors and friends may have just been showing in their eyes and ears, that look you see on people's faces, that look of I'm exhausted, I'm tired. I can't believe this is happening. These things didn't begin with the pandemic. They just came crashing down altogether at once.
I have goose bumps. I know so many women and women of all different socio economic classes colors who have literally been on the brink of losing it multiple times. They are not able to work, take care of their children, homeschool disruptions with COVID. I mean, it has been absolutely wild. So can you tell us about the specific policy and
advocacy work that you've participated in regard to paid leave. So, even before the pandemic, we were supporting what was called the Family Act, which would have been the first national paid leave program. It's sort of surprises a lot of people that that's not already the policy in this country. Until you need paid leave and can't access it. What happened during the pandemic is we actually ended up having an experiment. He had the first national paid leave program
as a part of the COVID relief package. You would have thought that that would have told us we should never go backwards again, that we should never not have
a situation like this. Unfortunately, we didn't all equally learn this lesson, and we have been fighting for paid leave together with an investment in our care infrastructure more broadly in Congress over this last two years, and it feels on some days that we were very far away and some days that we're on the cusp of actually getting something that would be transformative, not just for today but for tomorrow. In regard to that tell us about the
Build Back Better Act in Layman's terms. We've talked about it on this podcast before, but for anyone who's just tuning in, can you explain it? So I'm going to begin by saying that I am an internal oftenness, So you may read in the paper certain things that I'm gonna say exactly why I haven't given up on on build that Better, but but on specifically the sort of
investment in the care economy that we need. And it includes in historic investment in childcare so that workers can actually make more and families can pay less with would it also increase the supply of childcare. Unfortunately in the pandemic, we lost a lot of child care workers and they have some of them gotten jobs doing other things that
pay more, So we have a math problem. Similarly, the bill would have a historic investment in home care services for those who are elderly and with disabilities, a population that is growing because of the pandemic. And you know, it's one of these things where we can't just ignore a growing population that needs home care. But we kind of have been delaying and delaying addressing this. And it also included an investment in in paid lead in allowing
for a federal paid lead program. It does other things that has investments in housing, has um investingments in climate and a number of organizations around the country have been fighting for this, have been fighting for us to actually do the work of not just recover in terms of our economy, but invest in the future and and and put care at the center of it. Like that how transformative to to do that? UM, And so where are
we on February pretty pretty too. And in any day, you know, there's always some sort of political have take that's trying to guess where we are. And the truth is people still want this investment. If you ask and pull on the issue, people say, yes, I need you to invest in child care now actually and maybe yesterday, Yes I need you to to actually do something to make sure home care workers get a worrage. There. They are talking about this in a very serious way, and
negotiations are still happening. I'm not sure in the end what will look like. I mean, some of this is the business of doing business on in in DC, on Capitol Hill. And you know, I don't think people need to be invested in the sausage making. They need to be invested in actually getting something done. I think most people in this country kind of don't care what the bill is called. They don't care if one member of Congress is mad or another, or you know, how they
get it done. They just want them to get it done. And I think consistently hearing that message from people will matter. You posted a statement on the National Women's los Center page which everyone listening. If you have not done deep dives down this page and and just really looked into
the National Women's Law Center website. It's so valuable. I read that the Build Back Better Act is also our last best hope to prevent the collapse of our child care system and sure millions more women are not pushed out of the labor force, prevent increased health inequity, and stop the descent of millions of children into poverty with the pending lapse of the child tax credit. Why is
America so far behind? Why? Well, so we tend to focus on the thing, right, and I'm so dramatic, right, but I actually think we should be like, how did we get here? What we're rethinking? So, Built Back Better, I think is the bill we always should have had. Right, This sort of investment in childcare is the investment we always should have had because of the child tax Credit. Even during a pandemic and a reception we may which did not have people falling more into deep poverty. And
that was an on purpose policy solution. We made a choice that we were going to have fewer people going into deep heart poverty in a recession. Well done, well done, good job, good job. What can we learn from that that it makes a difference in a recession for people to have income. I sort of feel like those are basic lessons, but there's always the worry that we won't hold on to them. And the lesson I worried people will forget is what has happened in these last two
years with women leaving the workforce. There are a lot of anecdotal stories that people know, so they're surprised and not surprised to know that over two million women left during the pandemic. And there were periods where there were spikes that surprised no mother anywhere, right back to school spike every year, a macron when you saw people getting sick and meaning to take un hate leave. That didn't really surprise anyone who was looking around and thinking about
what that looks like in practice. And so I actually think the opportunity to deliver not just for the folks who suffered so much in this period, but to learn the lesson and invests differently for the future who decided on the three months. I have very few friends who work at amazing companies that provide I'm not kidding you, one year paid maternity leave MHM. When they tell people in the room that they're getting that people are shocked and um so jealous and it's such a blessing. I
see why it works. I mean caretakers, they get time with the baby. If they have they're having trouble adjusting anything like that, they are okay, and when they come back it's unreal. I mean they're like in such a good place. There are other countries that this is normal. Why is it not here? So we actually just marked I think that twenty nine anniversary of the Family Medical Leave Act, which was historic at the time, to provide job protection. You know, that's what that bill was. It
wasn't saying you were getting paid. It just meant you didn't lose your job for taking twelve weeks of paid lead of unpaid lead in most cases. Yeah, just saying I'm going to go have a baby, Can I please have my job when I come back. Well, that was controversial at the time, and unfortunately not everyone has that job protection now, especially for people who are making low wages and for workers who are part time. And so I totally agree with you that right now, our system
is not set up to support young parents. It's also not set up to have people have what they need either to recover for themselves. Or to ensure that their borns are cared for. It's really hard to get early newborn care. Yet most people who have paid leave, that paid leave ends well before you can actually have access to care. So if you have four weeks of paid leave, which is considered a lot in in many places, it's hard to find care for a four week old. Most
centers don't take a four or six weeks old. Those are tiny, tiny babies. So we are not set up. And what ends up happening is this invisible care that nobody talks about. We don't name the invisible cost that is mostly born by women in this country. It's just sort of not talked about, not name until now. I do think the pandemic people are starting to name the cost of care, that there is a cost that we're
just not yet. Begs what can listeners and myself do? Dadly, we're also spending our time and energy fighting reproductive rights and things that are feeling like they're going backwards, and that why are we doing this again? Some days I just I don't even know where to put my energy because it's all a mess. Wow, I'm really a downer today. Good thing up with you, Fatima, because you are an optimist, who am I usually? So? Well, I'm going to give
you something that maybe we'll feel slightly optimist. All right. So this sort of idea that people who are experiencing the hardest of all of it are the ones that actually have to engage the most is hard because people are like, no, I'm tired, I don't what what are you talking about? And it is precisely the time to put your energy into something else. It's precisely the time to join together with others who are also experiencing that
same thing. That is how your voice is heard. And so we have a chance to do that yes on the issues of care, to keep them front and center, to let people know that we actually we care about it. It's precisely the time to do it with a hat on, to remind people that you know, we vote, and that these are the things that I would think about when
I go to vote. People need to hear that. And I would argue that these issues aren't disconnected from the assault on reproductive healthcare and on abortion in particular, They actually are deeply connected. In many states, it's this sort of same state that is doing things like not wanting to take the child care money, not having a paid leave, conversation that same state is rolling back reproductive healthcare. There's an opportunity to join together and fight for a different future.
And the strategy of sort of making people feel powerless is how nothing gets done. We are super powerful, that's so right. Yes, I do feel fired up. I'm pissed and powerful and powerful. You know what's weird is that I sometimes feel people don't even know where to get
the information. My most privileged friends, I'm like, oh, I think there's like something in the state of California that you can look into to get money for your maturity leave, And literally they're like, wait, what I can I'm like, yet, how do we better help our friends to know that their state might have something available to them for a
paid family leave or you know, something like that. So, if you're looking for information to know about what your rights are and whether you have options, a good place to start is the Department of Labor, either in your state or the U. S Department of Labor. But you know,
they're one page explainers that usually break it down. I also want to give a little shout out to one of the things we do at the Law Centers We run a legal network and people give consultations to folks who are trying to figure out, wait, can I access this leave program? What are my rights? And where's stand ready to give consultations. And there are lots of organizations in who work locally in states who give information to So I want to make sure people know about that.
So you should never be in a situation where the question is I don't know my rights. There are lots of ways to get that. What other specific laws or rights should we be fighting for or learn more about? All Right? I know people say nothing happens in Washington. There's a bill that I really feel like it can happen in Washington, and it is called the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act. Tell us more, tell us more. It is a bill that requires employers to provide accommodations if pregnant
workers need them on the job. And those might look like different things, right for some folks, that might mean you need extra ppe, or you need a stool because you sit at a cash register and it's uncomfortable, or you need to be able to go to the bathroom and you need to go to the bathroom, which I shouldn't have to say that if you've ever been pregnant, you pee all the time, all the time. I couldn't imagine, like that wouldn't be an option, like, oh my gosh,
I'm not allowed. You know, I worked in effect somewhere where I'm only allowed one pea break every four hours. I would be screwed, exactly, And unfortunately some workers are. And so this is one of those things that who's on the other side of the Pregnant Workers Fairness Act? I still am not quite sure. And it passed the House of Representatives with over three hundred votes. That is not how things typically happen in the House, and is
super close in the Senate. This is an example of a thing that should just happen right now for pregnant workers. It's just essentially making that while you're working, you're working under better circumstances whilst pregnant. That is right. And you know, for for some folks, they might say, well, already, boss is pretty good to me. I never had a problem
while working while I was pregnant. But unfortunately sometimes people get are not so good boss, or they work in a job that requires them to be on their feet all day. You know, we hear from a lot of teachers who are like, it's not going to work this way, I have to do it another way. Or during COVID it was coming up a lot where people needed remote access, sometimes because their doctors told them not to be in
particular types of settings. It shouldn't require you to look into a good boss who hears your accommodation needs in order to be safe. In order to be safe, and you shouldn't have to choose between having a healthy pregnancy and having a job. Again, I just feel like people don't know what their rights are. I don't know why, but I I hear this a lot well. And part of the challenge is that every state has a different
set of laws. And that is because we don't have a national paid leave program where it's like, well know the answer is x six days and X number of days for parental leave. We don't have that. So every state is different. Sometimes cities have rules that are different, and so you do have to make sure that you're matching your options with where you actually live. But that's why I offered the there's the legal network for gender equity. If people need tailored information or or believe they have
leave but they're not able to access it. There's also really wonderful organizations where loking around the country, groups like a Better Balance, the National Partnership for Women and Families, the Paid Leave for All Campaign, who are trying to both pass stronger national measures but also are doing a good job educating people around what their rights are. What are your goals for the next six months? So my
goals broadly at the Law Center. When I think about the next six months, um at the on the other side of the next six months, a couple of things will have happened. Yes I need that too because I was like six months one year. But yeah, you know, it's fair, it's fair. I really do hope we're going to get a big investment in care. It is a big priority for us. We have not given up and
we're fighting for it. I also think we will have confirmed and exceptionally qualified historic first black women to the Supreme Court. And you see me dancing in the street as someone is I mean, as someone who has practiced, you know, law for a couple of decades. I don't know that I would have thought in my legal career that I would have seen it. And I think about when I was in law school you know, I had
no black women professors when I was in law school. Uh. I think about the ten years where we saw no black women confirmed to the Courts of Appeals, and the idea that there are so many black women who are being considered they could fill up a couple of Supreme courts. Ah, that would be amazing. So that is a goal, the big one. What would be something achievable that we could all very much help with in the next couple of years.
So when I think about the next couple of years, and you know, we've got to get through this election this fall, I hope people in this election will tell the story and fight for care. I hope that's going to be on the agenda. Leading on the agenda we're about to enter. I believe a new period on access to reproductive healthcare, and it's going to require people who may or may not have engaged very much on the issue to show up for people. And so I actually
hope that's what we see. I hope we see people showing up, even if they're in a state we're all options are on the table, that they're showing up for everyone else. And that's going to be a new period for us as a country, and I actually do believe over the next couple of years we will shift totally how we think about these types of care investments. I don't think we're going back to the notion that it's
every family for themselves and good luck. I think if it doesn't happen this year, there will be a stronger political force that emerges of mostly mamas, together with care workers, together with those who need elder care, saying we are all stronger together and we're demanding more, and so I hope people will join that. I hope they will not forget this period, and we'll join that, whether it is fighting for something at the national level or for deeper
investments in their own communities. I feel so inspired by that. How old are your children? Minor ten and thirteen? Oh? Wow, that's so exciting. Do they think you have the coolest job? Did they get it? Or they just like mom? It's much more, you know, I have teens and tweens, so I'm much more in the mom phase pretty much all the time. Wow. And did you go back to work right away when they were little? You know, I took
long leaves. I took four months the first time, which is longer than the three and then the second time I took around five months, and then I did some intermittent and I will say I came back from my first leave tired, exhausted, and was promoted to a vice
president within a few months. And I will tell you again, I just want to name that that was at the time, the National Women's lost in er investing in me and investing me, not just sort of saying you've been gone for quite a while, so I don't know what you're capable of. Yeah, sure, um, And and that mattered. It made me loyal, It made me appreciative of the time and space, And so I think about that. People need
different things at different points in their career. There are times when our caregiving obligations are deep and serious, and what I hope is that employers wouldn't meet them. They wouldn't meet their employees where they are. When it doesn't happen, that is when we know we have to set a floor. We have to set a floor for the employees who are not going to show up, so at the very least they do things, and then if they want to retain their staff, they'll do more. I feel the same.
I feel so grateful sitting here. I mean, obviously what I do is in no way shape a comparison, but I do have to say that, you know, being an actor, you'd always heard like you better not get pregnant because no one's gonna hire you. And you know you don't want to be you know, you're in big trouble if you don't book a job, you know, before three months, and then everyone's showing you're never gonna work. And also you're not sexy anymore and you're not this or that
or whatever. And Miss Shonda Rhymes, who produces this podcast, sat me down and said, do you want to have a family. You know, this was years ago, and I was like, I do, and she was like, well, you should definitely do it on my watch because I know how to do it and I take care of my ladies. And it's like famously known in Hollywood how any actress who wants to be a mom is praying to get on a shot show because she will take care of you.
She just goes above and beyond. You know, I was back pump being in my trailer every three hours on the dot. When I went back to work. At no point was it an inconvenience or I was thought less than I have an employee who was terrified to tell me she was pregnant, and I was like, yes, you have all the time off your need. I'm paying you the whole time, you know, I mean, but but we have to pay it forward. I feel so lucky to have been treated that way through both of my pregnancies.
I was able to celebrate my pregnancies and coming back to work because I was supported that I was then able to do such a better job at my job, and I never felt terrified to leave my baby. I felt like I could do it, you know, because I was supported in the workforce and my and at my home life. You know, that's it. But that's investing in your people, right. It's not actually rocket science, but it
also is too rare. And the reason people are terrified, they're terrified for a good reason because with the wrong boss, they might be fired or retaliate against. I mean, pregnancy is actually a time retaliation is super super high, where people it just so happened to lose their to lose their jobs just when they need their income. And so I actually think because if you know, the more we
tell the stories of what's possible. You know, if Shonda Rhimes could tell the story of what it looks like to create conditions where people can have families and thrive, then it won't be a unicorn. Right. We wanted to be the standard, and I can try to build that standard through legislation and through lawsuits. That's one way. Also, employers don't have to wait until they are forced to.
If they want right, and you were more loyal, your staff is more likely to stay, they return, They're more productive, they are healthier, they're all the benefits that that are tied to actually investing in in their care means. That's it we need to invest. I mean, and it's just a microcosm for how how great it is all around and how it could and possibly be in this optimist utopian that you see hopefully for us someday. I don't
think it's going to be that far away. I mean, I can't even tell you how many friends that I had that were pregnant were so relieved that things were on zoom because they were like, oh, I can put myself up for that promotion because they won't know I'm pregnant till week thirty and they won't pass over me and I'm like, are we really still doing this? This is a mayor. Yeah. I am so grateful for everything that you are doing and for the National Women's Law Center. Again,
everyone listening, please look at the site. Forwarded onto any friends you know who don't know what their rights are, how they can get access two things that they should be getting access to. And then also, guys, get involved. Vote. These are the times we are on the brink, no question. I am so glad to be with you, and if I could just echo the call to action to both go to our site, please do but also vote. I
mean it matters. Fatima, thank you so much, thank you for letting us be the last stop of your very busy, important day. And to all of our listeners again, but visit the site. We will put links to it, and um, thank you again for fighting the fight. So very glad to be here, so very glad. Oh wow, you guys, thank you so much for listening to today's episode. I have to admit I started it off a little bit bummed and like, oh man, we are screwed, and I
feel so much better. I mean, Teama Goss Graves just inspired the hell out of me and I think we're all on the brink of change and really helping out our mamas and our pregnant women out there. What'd you guys think of the episode? I want to hear from you. What other guest topics do you want to hear about? You can always find me Katie's Crib at Shonda land dot com. Katie's Crib is a production of Shonda land
Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shonda land Audio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite ships.