Dog and Baby Integration with Matt Beisner

and kids. So with us today is the amazing Matt Weiser, who in my eyes is a dog whisper because of how he was able to help my super duper difficult dog dog Roger. If you guys know him, Roger Hamilton's Shapiro Lows. I instagram them all the time. He's a curmudgeon old part of a dog that I love. Matt, who you may know from his National geographic TV show called Dog Impossible, provides the best kind of training and helps people develop the deepest possible relationship with their dog.

And he taught me so much and so many different kinds of approaches that I wanted to share with you guys on Katie's Crib. So thank you for being on. Matt, I'm so glad to be here, Katie. Thanks oh my gosh, I'm this has been I have to tell you, Like I sent out tweets and and posts asking Katie's Crib listeners like what are topics you really want to cover? And across the board, people have always asked, how do I bring a baby home to my house when I have a dog, when I have a difficult dog, when

I have an older dog. What happens if I want to get a dog and I have a kid. Our dog is good for allergies, what happened if the dog bites a kid? I mean, it's a very triggering topic. And you saved my dog life. I almost had to get rid of my dog so many times. And I'll explain that in a minute, but let's just start with a brief background on you and how you got into this field, and what inspired you to work with all dogs,

but specifically aggressive dogs. To begin with, I was smiling when you asked that, because the story never it's old that I actually was afraid of dogs to about eleven eleven twelve years ago. Now I have an appropriate sense of fear, but I had interrational fear and I was bit when I was a kid on Halloween. Um, I was like eight years old, and my parents knew what what a lot of people still consider to be helpful information, which is if a dog's tail is wagging, that means

you can pet the dog. So it was Halloween. I had a little pumpkin, you know, orange candy pumpkin bucket with me, and my parents had dressed me up like Richard Nixon, and so the mask and everything was the time set up, and I go to uh, So, I'm approaching the dog and dogs wagging its tail and I reached out and the dog punctures me in the arm and that was hit. That was like for the next thirty something years, I had that fear in the fear

just progressed. And then I got older and I was ashamed of it, and you know, you're not supposed to be a grown man and be afraid of dogs and all that kind of stuff. And and then I landed with somebody. About twelve years ago. I moved in with somebody was pretty sick at the time, and I've been open of people about the fact that I'm sober. So

I was actually detoxing. And I moved in with her and she had an aggressive puppy who would attack me every time I moved around the house and that kind of out it started, and from there I ended up helping her dog and who's now my dog. We've since split with the dog and I are still together and helping her dog and her friend's dogs and friends of friends dogs. And I did a lot of stuff then

that that I wouldn't recommend. Now. You know, I was a hack in a lot of ways, but what was fundamental is that I begin the relationship with the dog predicated on what the dog needed. And my understanding what the dog needed was limited, for sure, and my ability to help the dog was limited, for sure. But it planted a see that became a foundational principle of the Zen dog as it is today, which is what do

I do for this dog? And if I make my relationship with the dog about what the dog needs, everybody changes for the better. And wait, can you just go back and explain for people who are listening what zen dog is. Which is how I knew I was in the right place was when I went on the Zen I was at a loss. I had just adopted a seven year old dog Adam and I, and he was air snapping at people. He was very aggressive on a leash.

He hated other dogs, So my visions of having dog play dates with friends and going on long hikes up Runyon Canyon with my girlfriends and their dogs was not a reality. And I went to the website and said the Zen Dog and then I believe, I think the logo was there are no Bad Dogs or something. It said there are no bad dogs, and I remember breathing for the first time. So tell me what zen dog is. Well, the Zen Dog is a place for hope and help

and solution. It's a place where people learn that they're not alone. One of the things that's important in the scientific understanding is that aggression is fear based. And so if we just look at that aggression is fear based, then it is it is overwhelming be likely that the aggression that that your dog or a dog that you're interacting with is expressing is simply because it's afraid. And if we look at it that way, it starts to shape in really important ways the way we interact with

the dog. Because I have a three and a half year old son, he's angry right now because we have a five month old daughter that wasn't part of his plan. So and he wants to slap me on the face, you know there's something else going on. And and so if I know that agression is fear based, and I know what it's like having been afraid of dogs, and I know what it's like to be aggressive in my

life from a place of fear. If I have that consideration, it changes how I'm going to meet the dog, you know, and meeting the dog where it's at is the first thing we do. I gotta respect what this dog needs, not what I want I want it to want, not what I think it wants. I gotta respect with this dog needs, which is what you and Adam have have done.

You're just you're such great examples of how this works because you had with Roger, a show dog who had been touched, preamed, and poked without permission his entire life, and he had good reason to say, I don't want a human being to touch me. Ever again, that's exactly right, yes, and Matt I, I I think a lot of people in our generation get dogs before kids, because I think

we are having babies later in life. And I think for a lot of people, they share a dog first, maybe in their relationship, and the dog is sort of the gateway drug to possibly children. Anyway, that was the case for me and Adam and you guys, we got one hell of a fucking dog. Like like and what Matt did. You came in and you did a few home sessions with us, and I remember you sat down on What you said to me was you can either accept Roger for who he is or you can't. And

you he can't be your dog. You have to give him up or you accept him for who he is. And I started sobbing because I just had to, like you said, I love him for who he is, which means, no, I can't take him on social hikes with my friends. No, I can't take him to the dog beach and let him off leash and go frolic in the waves with other people. No, I can't trust him in big groups of people when they come over my house. He has

to go away. And yet I love him anyway because he's like I don't know, I don't love him any less. I love him the ways he needs me to be loved, which is he allows me to pet him on the belly in the morning and at night when he's relaxed and on the floor. You know, he he I know him so well inside, and I know what he doesn't like, and I've just had to accept that he doesn't like those things. Whether or not I want to hike, it's never gonna happen. You said something interesting there I heard.

I think what you meant to say is I love him the way that he needs to be loved. But what I think I actually heard you say is I love him the way he needs me to be loved. And if I riff off that for a second, that is actually a deeper, profound understanding of the nature of

a relationship with the dog. Because if I love my dog based on the way I need to be loved, not the way I want to be loved, not the way I think you should love me, but really what I need to be loved, and it lets it lets my dog off the hook, because my dog's not there to fix my problems. Problems. Yeah, that was exactly it. So tell me, maybe take us through how you what's so great about having you on is that you also

have two kids. How do you coach new parents into bringing a baby home, let's say, first to a household that has a dog. Well, we we do on on our website the zend dog dot com. We have a slew of information that's available and Brooklyn, my wife and I Brooklyn when we were preparing for our son talents arrival,

who's our oldest, we already had five dogs. Four of them were leasily aggressive, and we had to have a very real conversation about whether or not we were going to be able to keep all five of our dogs. So we actually wrote what ended up being like a treaty, like a treatise, like sixteen page document of real time experience coupled with you know, empirical evidence and how science

would support things about how to integrate a dog. And the thing to keep in mind is that safety and integration those are the points from which this temple of harmony can be built. Safety is not enough by itself, because safety can mean that I put the dog in the room every time somebody comes over, and the dog has never integrated into anything. Safety means I don't let my dog meet other dogs, and then my dog never has a dog. So safety doesn't really do anything. It

just means that we don't get arrested. I didn't do criminal acts. I just didn't get arrested. You know what, I mean some of us. So safety and integration is key, and we come into it knowing that for many of us, definitely from Brooklyn and I, that our kids, our first kids, are as you said, are our dogs. And so there's this really sensitive and important and complex dynamic too to address in a short amount of time while the hormones are firing off and this baby is growing in your belly.

And if we look at this and we think about how we set the dog up to succeed, that's really the number one question, how do I set this dog up to succeed? So in Roger's case, it doesn't dive for Roger to be around a kid party with our five dogs. Nama, who's who's one of our pitch mixes, who's a big star on our show Dog Impossible. Nama loves everybody, everybody and everything. So Nowama loves a kid party.

She's been doing. My Jindo not so much. My little terrier, the one that I was that I first met when I was when I was getting facing my fear of dogs, not at all. So I got to know who the dog is, meet the dog where it's at. When we're looking at this integration process, safety and the integration or key. How do I set the dog up to succeed? And there are a couple of things to to bear in mind. One is that we we actually have times some people

are up against it. They call me it at month eight of pregnancy and they say what do we do? And then I'm just looking at setting absolutely safe parameters. I first like to look at what's realistic for how you want your dog to be living with you. Do you want your dog to still be sleeping in the bedroom. Definitely not having your dog sleep in the bed. But I have to look at what's practical because as parents,

you're gonna lose your mind. It reminded me of like a Monty Python sketch where my my skull cap had been taken off and then another one that was not mine was put back on, and my brain just kind of kept falling out. I couldn't think up all the pieces. And that's how you're supposed to manage a dog and a kid. It's not a great setup. So so I'm always looking at what's practical. For example, if your dog

sleeps in the bed, not going to work. There are serious attachment issues that are gonna come to play A lot of dogs. Actually, what they do is they figure out this kid is now the center of attention, and so I'm going to cozy up to this kid. And it reads like my dog loves my kids so much. Look at my dog looks my kid's face and let him lay on him and all that stuff. And I can't tell you over the years from the people that come to me, nobody's coming to me on a winning streak.

From the people that come to me, that was all cool until it wasn't. And when we play it back, we actually get to see that the dog was clearly communicating I'm not okay with this. So if we're looking at what's practical not having the dog in the bed, um Brooklyn I talked about it. I selfishly wanted the dogs in the bedroom, and she made the right call anyway,

she said that's not gonna be okay with me. And if you think about it, waking up multiple times a night, whether your kid is is in the sleeper next to you, are co sleeping in the bed, or your kids in in another room, do you want your dog to be disturbed every time your kid is disturbed? Right? Your dog doesn't want to be disturbed exactly. So we start to shape things practically. How do you want to move about the house, how do you want to bring the kid

home and introduce the dogs, those kinds of things. And even though it can feel overwhelming because we're looking at safety and integration, the dog has a unique opportunity if it's set up safe too, to actually watch your kid grow. And most dogs, there is a list of thirteen subliminal bite triggers, and every dog is any dog is predisposed to be one of the subliminal bite triggers as kids. So dogs don't typically have a frame of reference for

a kid. But the upside of having an infant a newborn and we had our second kid, we did a home birth. Yeah on Halloween. She was born on Halloween, and we actually left the front door open and all the trigger treaders got to come in. It was rado. No, we didn't do that. I was just thinking in my head. I was busy thinking this is so full circle. You got a dog on Halloween and then you had a baby on Halloween. I was like, oh, that makes that that's a full circle. That doesn't make a s. But

our dogs didn't. They didn't bark once they didn't like they were so they were so yeah. So. So the long, the long, detailed answer to your important question here is that your dog has time to acclimate because your kid's not gonna do much other than making noises and having diapers that smell interesting. Your kid's not going to do much for the first few months. And so our our girl, our daughter, she is now five months, she's just starting

to work on this, although she wants yeah, all of that. So, so your dog has time to get used to this thing, right, do you recommend anything of like bringing home something that smells like the baby, and how you bring the dog inside. That's the stuff I really remember going over with you is like I was in the hospital and I'd just given birth to Albi, and I had my brother come to the hospital pick up like a bloody blanket that I had, like one of the many pieces of fabric

that had been used in childbirth. And my brother, just because he's awesome, came and picked it up and brought it home and had Roger smell it or something. And then I vaguely remember when we brought Albie home, all meeting out in the middle of the street and then walking into the house in the order of power, if that makes sense, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I hear what

you're saying. And we met in the street. I walked in with the baby, then Adam walked in, and Roger walked in last because he needed to know the shift it happened or something. Yeah, and what you did is actually you created in real time experientially for Roger a buffer. And that's important because when you got a new baby. Our rule in our house was hula hoop's length, no dog. I don't care how comfortable you are a dog with

with us. In our family, no dog is within arm's length or hula hoop's length of the baby until we say so. Um, we didn't have our dogs didn't make contact with our kid until he was about three months old, and that was when they kissed his feet. And then about five and a half months old, Brooklyn was there because she had been doing it because she was home with him and the dogs at five months old five and a half months old are Blue, nose pit Desha

Blue got to lick him in the face. That stuff takes time, but a lot of people don't do it that way. So yeah, you need like those people at first, really dive into it quickly, right, Like I feel like I see a lot of newborn video pictures of like you know, bringing home the baby and day too. They're they're being placed on the dog's belly and the dogs licking the faith And you think it's much more important to do everything very slow and really measured, right, I

think that. But that's also the world of dogs that I work, and you know there there are there are just amazing stories and videos about dogs. You can see they're genuinely happy and protective and bonded and those kinds of things. So you know, to your question, it's about taking the mystery out of it. This whole thing is going to be weird and for an alien to everybody in the home, you know, humans and dogs included, So

taking the mystery out of it. So if I'm gonna take the mystery out of it, I want to give the dog access to smells, sights, and sounds. This is not information I created. This is this is pretty standard. What Brooklyn and I did that was really informative was we created the baby date, which I'm which I'm really stoked about sharing. And what is it? What is it? What is we got a not the mega baby date

that already happened. The baby date was we got a fake baby and brought and actually did the research and I did this. Remember that, you guys. I'm so sorry, but it's weird mom brain and dad brain, as you know,

that is a real thing. I have a two and a half year old, and I forgot that I bought a fake baby that made crying sounds off the black market, that's right, and I and I like would this was when the nursery was built, and I put the baby in like the baby carrier, or like pretended to change the baby's diaper, or like hold the baby and press the buttons that it cried while I held the baby. So that the first time Albie did that in my house. Roger had already been seeing me do that with a

fake baby. Yeah, you took the mystery out and we that the thing about the baby date that was so that was so great. There's there's an amazing vegan restaurant here called Little Pine. Shout out to Little Pine, Shout out a Little Pine, and we actually one of my favorite places to eat. So we had this fake baby that that our dogs hadn't seen yet, and we kept it in the car, which was, you know, the last last couple of weeks we'd ever get away of doing

something like that. We kept it in the car. We went on this baby date and got dressed up and really enjoyed the time with each other. And we made a point on our on our baby date, at this great dinner of talking about everything we loved about each other, what we thought about each other as parents, what we everything we loved about our dogs, what we just There was so much love in the meal and in the experience, which was key because what you do is you come

home with oxytocin. You come home with a baby in a carriage and full of oxytocin, which is the love drug. And what happens with the love drug is in those first two hours the oxytocin levels and it decreases, but the oxytocin levels of the highest they're ever going to be in the child's life. So if we're looking at that two day window, there's still quite a bit of

it in the air, and the two day window. If you come home with the baby and you've got all this good juju and your dog picks that up, it's really helpful for the dog to know what that's about, and they've seen it before. And they've seen it before. So we brought fake baby home. We put fake baby on the on the cough the table, and I watched. We didn't do anything. I just wanted to do and I watched what my dogs were going to do. And the terrier, Kingston, it was the one that got me

into all. This actually got really weird with fake baby. And that's when Brooklyn and I had unexpectedly had to have that conversation, are we going to be able to keep Kingston? What does this say about me as a dog trainer, etcetera, etcetera. And we did and haven't had an incident with him. Kingston is quite content. Yeah, we've had to really learn the rules of you know, it's such a in a way, it's a blessing that that, like you said, watching these babies grow, that everything sort

of happened slowly. You know, they learned to crawl before they learned to walk, they learned to walk before they learned to run. Thank God, because I've been able to watch how Roger does and now it's like they're just hardcore rules, like if there's two babies over, three babies over Roger has to be put away. If there's any baby parties at the house, our dog walker has to come and take Roger away, or my brother has to come take Roger for a plate date for four hours

or whatever. But like it's also for my peace of mind. Like I have a difficult dog, and it's my responsibility to make sure that I set him up for success. And throwing him in the middle of a plate date with toddlers who are now running around and some of them running after him is a terrible mix for my dog. Yeah, yeah, And that's that's the bottom line. You know, we talked about this a little bit before that It's it's ultimate about setting Roger up. And Roger doesn't want that mama.

My mama wants it. Roger doesn't want it. And the other thing that's really important that you said is for your peace of mind, because there's it is hard enough parenting, and it's hard enough trying to be a good parent, you know, and be a conscious parent and those all those things, and and there's no way to see if the dog bit a kid, it would be my fault. It would be my fault because I know my dog and I know that he's sensitive to certain situations and I can't. Um. It's part of me being a dog

owner that I don't put him in those situations. Yeah, and I'm not against re homing, I should say as as I've done that, and that's really important. I just want and that's not my call if people decided to do that, but I want parents to be able to make solid, experientially informed choices because it is a very very difficult choice and if a dog bites a kid, the odds of that dog getting rehomed are exponentially smaller. Can you tell me about one of your training methods

is to communicate with dogs through energy. I'm sure all of you listeners out there can just listen how the Matt Bisner energy is something I wish we could all just like wash ourselves with constantly, um, because it's so calming. And I don't know if it's because you work with aggressive dogs or people going through at times very very traumatic things with their dogs. But can you tell me about treating what is that? Yeah, it's a it is not.

I know it can sound woo woo, but you ask anybody that's a parent and they walk into a room and they can tell you what the energy is. They're at a dinner and and the sitter says everything's cool, and then something doesn't feel right and they get a tax. So you know, your baby's choking on the knife I left out, you know, sorry, So it's so that's a real thing. I know that, you know, nine of human communication is nonverbal. But we've built this world on the

six percent, you know, and not not very well. So there's there's a lot more happening here than than I can understand. What I do know is that if I, if I get quiet and I and I practice being calm around my dog, and I practice what I called attachment, which is not being cold. I'm not ignoring the dog.

But if I if I practiced attachment so I don't engage with the dog unless the dog is calm, I start to see the dog in different ways, and I start to see my impulses to engage with the dog or get something, or rile the dog up or beloved. I start to see that, and I start to see the impact that I have when I do engage with my dog. So you you basically get you get your power back in this relationship. If you if you detach and you start to let your dog tell you who

it is. You get you get real genuine positive impact in the relationship. So energy changes. Energy can be changed biologically, physiologically, chemically by the weather at the time of day. Guests you have over. What dogs do is they can experience something that stresses them, and then they can stack the stressors up and then and then even up to four d eight hours later, the dog snaps and it seems like it's come out of nowhere. I am not Zen,

I'm not the Zen dog. I have to be this way as as somebody who is has to be clean and sober. I just have to maintain a certain mental and emotional sobriety. And it just so happens that that practically, that works really well for dogs. And I've been able to take the principles of that and offer it to people in a way that they can apply it in their homes and make it their own and it and it allows things to breathe, and it allows the dogs to be themselves. And I totally remember this MHM to

this day. I I will say to my staff, even though I'm ten years and thousands of dogs into working exceptionally dangerous dogs I'll go into a yard where we're working with a dog and I'll say I don't feel right today, and I'm tapping out. I'm gonna let you run this session. I have to know that about myself. It's a different level of humility than how I was. I'll put it this on myself, different level of humility than how I raised myself to be. Wow, I remember this.

I remember, you know, I grew up with very easy dogs. And I think that was also the huge problem with having the dog I got, and also having a baby in this sort of a picture becau because I grew up in a family where the dog slept in the bed and we all slept with the dog, and we rolled around with the dog, and the dog was a very submissive, you know, always on its back, ready for anything. And I had to repaint the picture in my mind that that's not what my family was going to look like.

And I remember you retraining my brain of not rewarding Roger by petting him when he was super stoked and excited and wagging his tail, but waiting for him to be really calm and laying down and his zen like self, and then pet him so that it's reinforcing that behavior. That's it, and that's how what we found is if we change again, not to be abstract, if we change the energy in the relationship, then the dog's behavior changes

and the dog actually can change its own behavior. And that's something else that that even since we met that, I've seen there's newer science that demonstrates that the reward system and the dog's brain fires more for humans attention than anything else than food or anything. It's all about most of the dogs that come to us. I have a colleague who is a master master aggression trainer, and he's relied with great success on food. I have a lot of dogs that come to us and that didn't

work for them. So you know, we've found this niche where dogs could get help in a different way and and the energy is key. Um, so what do you suggest if this is so sad to even talk about what we have to It's an animal is being aggressive towards a baby, and it's more than what a family can handle. I know we spoke about rehoming, but I and of course I'm sure that is the last thing

people want to think about. I mean, Adam and I really had to have those conversations and we ultimately did not make that decision, and it was the right one for us. Yeah, and it helped us grow as people, and I think also prepared and helped us to be parents, because I do have to say, I think about you constantly when I'm accepting my son for who he is and not what my childhood was, for what I thought it was supposed to be. And I feel like I

got a lot of practice with that with Roger. But let's say aggression is still very much in the picture and parents are afraid or there's been a bite or something, What the hell do people do? Yeah? Well, that the single most important thing, and I hope this has taken with the respect that I mean. It is human safety, particularly the safety of the child. Uh. And if a dog is biting um, it's imperative to contact an appropriate professional, somebody at the very least who's method is based in

positive training. What I do know is that a child that watches violence in the home with dogs, it's much more likely to grow up being violent. So those kinds of things are maybe second in the focus, but it's part of the reality. When we're looking at that element of danger and that and that even for myself in

my own home, that we don't normalize that. I'm constantly explaining to my son that dogs are afraid, and how do we meet them where they're at, and how do we be kind and those kinds of things, and so getting immediate, appropriate professional help. There are a lot of great places to look for that. You know, we do what we can with the show, but but that's not

the same thing as being in somebody's house. And you know, the show is also a show, and I take responsibility to for what we what we are able to transmit, but above all, don't put a child at risk. I have been in a home where somebody I said, in no uncertain terms, I cannot sign off on this because your daughter just said to me that she's afraid. Your ten year old daughter just said to me that she's afraid. And I do not feel comfortable about this dog remaining

in this home. And the mom chose to ignore the daughter and keep the dog in the home. And what can I can do about I love that you brought up about the violence thing, because I think it's it's so great in today's day and age. I feel like there's a lot of literature that I have read just about disciplining kids and how violence is never, ever, ever, ever the option because it just teaches violence. And it's so great to hear that that's the same with dogs.

Like if you are hitting your dog to shape their behavior, yeah, it's just going to show your kids you can daily do the same. Yeah, you're gonna you'll change behavior, but but you won't empower the kid or the dog to change its own behavior. You'll get respect and that the behavior is not not the same. But you're going to

get a dog that is having to compartmentalize things. And I can't say enough about about what it's like as a dad to have to be accountable to my three and a half year old son about how I interact with my dogs. Yeah, so how do you this is a good question, how do you teach your kid and other kids how to approach dogs that are strangers or dogs and other people's houses. Yeah. So the first thing is that I my son had to know from the

beginning that you never touch a dog without permission. And and we are I'm not being cheeky and I'm not trying to capitalize on anything, but we are in a We are in a new understanding about what consent means, and this is an imperative for the dog's experience in the home. Do not touch a dog without permission. Now, what permission looks like maybe different for different people. Were were really clear and intentional about how we do that. The thing I told my son and you don't touch

the dogs without permission. I taught him to look at things like stress or signals. Are the eyes getting tired as the dog turning away, or the lips puckering, you know, is the mouth puckering or they're licking their lips, is the breathing changing. And we looked at a whole bunch of different things, but most of all, I said, you always go underhanded and you leave it there. Go underhanded and you leave it there so that the dog can tell you if it wants to come to you. Never

go over the top of the head. Number one fear trigger for a dog is being touched around the back of the neck. And that's that's how I got bit on Halloween. And that's what most of us do or would have done. So if I teach him that you don't touch a dog without permission, and if you want to ask permission, you go hand underneath first, and you let the dog come to you. And even then the dog may not want may not want you to pet it.

It may just want to sniff you and see what's going on and so not how to teach him about patients. And that's it, And that's actually a win for the dog because use of smell is part of a positive what we consider the list of positive reinforcers, and it's such a valuable lesson. I mean, just listening to you say that, it's like, you know, I'm I'm trying to teach. I'll be like when he goes to someone's house, if there's a dog there, you can ask the owner, am

I allowed to touch your pet? And if he gets permission from an adult, then he puts his hand underhand out calmly and just waits for the dog to come to him. And if the dog chooses that he doesn't want to come to you, then that's it. That's the end of the story. It's not like, oh, that's my cue to go run after you and put my hand over hand over your head. Yeah, any more than we get into a crowded room and we would say uh, and I'd go over and close talk with people. You

know what I mean? Right, that's exactly right. What about for people whose kids are just afraid of dogs like there are? Just I was a nanny for ten years before I gave birth to um, not before I gave birth, That is not true. For ten years before scandal. Yeah, and I had a couple of kids who were definitely afraid of kids and had never had an incident. But they were the kids that when we showed up, I had to ask the owner to please put the dog

away because it's going to ruin the plate. The kid on babysitting is just going to have a tantrum the whole time. What is that, Well, it's hard to say what it's like for for kids, there's show within any number of reasons why they're afraid. My experience has been that if the fear is not borne out of an actual traumatic event, and traumatic event may just be that I that I got scared as a kid dog man. It didn't even necessarily bite me. But most of all, what I see is that the kids just don't know

and they haven't been taught. And so in the same way that we want to set dogs like Roger to succeed, we want to set the kids up, and so I want to give the kids room for safety and integration, give them space to observe. And if I can help a kid, I do this. I've done this with my son and I do it with his friends. If I can just help them watch, they start to see things differently, and even if they don't love dogs in the future,

it makes a little bit of space. It puts a wedge between that fear and that possibility, and that can make the difference, you know, for a lifetime. I have a lot of That just means a lot to be able to do that with kids. That's great advice because I have seen also parents try to be like, you know, all come on, get over and just touch the dog. It's fine. It's not sort of like push the kid into their fear and push the kid into the experience with the dog. And I I've always felt instinctually like

that is not the right choice. So it's good for our listeners to know that if your kids are just innately afraid of dogs, so maybe just be somewhere where they can watch them, yes, you know, from afar, and get some space around the fear. And you know, my son has taught me that that his feelings are really important and if I if I'm gonna squash those I get over it, then I actually am negating his ability to communicate with himself. And to me, that's that is

really troublesome for a parent. Tell me about this is really scary for me. If my dog is now ten, what in the heck? For most people, toddlers or younger kids, sometimes their first relationship with death will be an animal. Yeah, what in the hell does one do? I'm I'm working through it right now. Four of our five dogs are seniors. Our oldest is fifteen. I think we've got a fifteen, thirteen, twelve, ten, and I know it's coming and uh, and I'm not sure.

I'm not sure, but an episode, Yeah, I think so. And I'll share about that openly because I'm not. I certainly don't. I don't have the answers by any stretch. Um. I have experience, and I and it's important for me to be transparent because if somebody can't relate to the experience, then it's not really worth much. And I'm afraid. And I tell my son I'm afraid, and he sees me crying about I see my dog. In a moment, I

feel like my oldest is becoming a ghost. I literally want to write a story called ghost Dog about him. And I'm watching it happen, and you know, this eyesight goes in the ear, the hearing goes, and that, you know, you can see the stiffness in those kind of things. And he sees me crying and I tell him, you know, he's gonna he's going to pass. But I'm not even quite sure how to get into it beyond that. So, yeah,

I'm having a similar boat. My son is walking and running and scootering and bicycling, and simultaneously my dog is getting more and more arthritis, and I'm calling his name and he's not turning his head to see me. So he's hearing is getting less, and he has more moles than he's ever had. You know, It's just that cycle of life. For parents who are considering adopting, fostering, or bringing in an animal, are their characteristics that one would look for in a dog that would make the dog

maybe better or worse to be with young kids? Yeah, there's things people will will ask me about temperament, for sure. There are things that are They're often breed specific I look at physical skill sets of a breed. Obviously, there's a lot of press and positive and negative litigation around pit bulls. For example, in Brooklyn, I have two of them, and both of them are exception with our kid. But

I look at the physical skill set. You know, those are big strong there breeds that are big strong dogs that are smart and sensitive, and they need a certain lifestyle and that may or may not be conducive to the way one parents. You know, there's just that. Then people ask me about getting a hypoallergenic dogs and dogs that bark and those kinds of things. I'm working with a Golden Retriever. Now that's one of the more dangerous

dogs I've ever worked with. You wouldn't think that, but ever, right, I feel like every little video I see have a baby rolling around on an animal, it's a fucking Golden Retriever And I'm just sitting here with my crotchety air snapping wheat and terrier and I'm like, God, do you have Yeah, so I don't. I don't. That's not my world.

What I think is really important is for the humans, the parents, to get honest with themselves about why they want a dog and what kind of dog they want and why they want that kind of dog, because if it's used as a salve for something else, if it's used to to fill a void for something else, then then it likely will become problematic because that dog is arriving not knowing that this whole thing is going to be put on it. And that's important, so fostering with

reputable foster organizations. I happen to have the great privilege to serve as an advisor to a newer rescue group called Real Time Rescue, which I will plug shamelessly and we will include links to that thank you. And their tenants are exceptional and they take responsibility from the moment they find the dog all the way through the end, rather than they have pulled fifty dogs from a shelter. Can somebody give me money? You know? Like none of that.

There's there's a different sense of responsibility and transparency and integrity and what they do. So it's what part of what I encourage people to include in their conversation. Where is a reputable rescue and how do they work? And tell me about their stories and really get the information because there's a whole underside to what happens in the rescue world, which I won't take up time here, and

saying word of mouth is really key. When I adopted Roger at seven, I thought he was cute, a supermodel, which he is. He was a show dog, guys, and he was the exact breed that I grew up with. So I put on this dog my entire childhood experience and saw visions of me walking around with this supermodel, the dog that I could pat on my back because I adopted a senior dog. Yes, but he was a supermodel. Yes, And this dog is nothing like the dog I grew up with nothing, but has taught me more than I

could ever thank him for. Okay, you you've given him a home that is nothing like the home he grew up in. That's really quite beautiful. He does never have to show again, that's for sure. Are Is there anything you can tell us about this time and coronavirus and dogs who are in shelters or things like that. Yeah,

what's happening. There's a there's a movement that's happening that I think is quite beautiful where people are they're they're making the extra effort to adopt dogs or to foster dogs, you know, short term or long term, just to keep the dogs in need. And what we're seeing here in l A County is that dogs that aren't severe cases aren't going to be accepted at shelters. So there is a huge number of dogs that that ostensibly are are

going to need to be rehomed. And for people that have space and have the time, which a lot of us do, and have the patients, this is a great opportunity to give to something and to and to bond and to have relationships. And keep in mind that if you're not going to be this dogs forever person, that it's not enough just to spoil the dog until that dog lands in another home, because that dog is learning from you right now what it needs to do to be able to go out and have a place in

the world where it belongs and where it can stay. Yeah, I've been seeing that a lot on social media, people saying this is a great time to foster a pet. But that's a really good point. It's like, Okay, don't take in this foster dog for three weeks and like give it eight thousand treats and and a reality that will not be true at the end of it, but I can say as a dog owner during this time,

I feel very grateful to have a dog. I keep having recollections of the other big things in my life that were global, and one of them being nine eleven, and I I remember all of those emotional support dogs being around, and I can say that this is I'm really happy that I have my dog, and just being able to pet him puts me in the present moment and can be a lovely release from all of the

stress going on right now. So for people who are looking into fostering right now and looking for some companion, maybe you live alone and you're lonely, or your family's far away and you're quarantined in a different, far away

city like it could be a great opportunity. And Real Time Rescue Real Time Rescue is a great organization that I work with that I get to serve as an advisor on and you contact them Real Time Rescue Inc. At gmail dot com, Real Time Rescue on Instagram and Facebook, and they can hook you up with dogs or hook you up with people that have dogs. This is amazing. Any last bits of wisdom, plugs tell us where listeners can find you, and just listen to your energy about

dogs and family life. Thank you. The so our website is the Zen dog dot Com. I love to have people follow us on Facebook, the Zen Dog l A, Instagram, the Zen Dog l A and there's a lot of information on our website. We have a document call to Hope for help because now that we have a global reach, I think our show is in maybe twenty countries at this point, and it's it's been remarkable to feedback and obviously we can't help everybody, and I want to be

intentional and responsible about how we can help. We have a lot of information on the website to at least begin the conversation for people between themselves and their dogs. And uh, I think the art of consideration is really what I'm talking about. This whole thing is consideration. There's something that I don't know about this dog or myself for this moment, the knowing of which would change our experience.

And if I stay open, if we look at the logo, the logo is open ended, the circles open ended, because there's always more I don't know. And if you look at the pad and the logos, I'm trying to do this backwards in the camera, the pad of the logos is sitting Buddha. And that's not for religious purposes. That's just to remind me that the center of what I do is about being quiet and paying attention. And when I slip, it's usually because I stopped considering things ego,

in patience, whatever it was. But if I start to make it about me, it's going to go south. And this is the Zen Dog logo. Yeah, this is the Zendo. And I just feel like with or without pets, if you are people that have pets, don't have pets, have aggressive pets, have pets that aren't aggressive. I think we should all just spend a nice week retreat at the Zen Dog Love to. That's that our five year plan I got. I've been a whole master thing where you could come spend a weekend in a in a cabin

at the back part of a huge problem. We will integrate. You're telling you come on This sounds like heaven on Earth. Are there any last bits of advice you could give for parents that are either about to bring a baby home into a household that has a dog, or people that are looking to get a dog. I think, don't do it alone. Don't do it alone. There's there's an immediate sense of isolation if you're not already in it when you're expecting and your bed bound and those kinds

of things. Don't do it alone and get get appropriate help and keep talking to people you know there. There's there's so much wisdom out there and information and great science and uh and there's mastery out there. But most of all, don't do it alone. And I think second to that which I am right now learning in my life is be a little bit easier on yourself in the moment. Love that. See guys, Matt Bisner's Zen Dog. You think it's going to be about your dog dog,

And this is the funny thing, it's about you. Am I right inspect If you make it about the dog, you'll definitely become about you. Matt, thank you so much for being on Katie's crib. You are a gem. I Roger thanks you, Adam, and I thank you endlessly. I'll be thanks you endlessly. Thank you. Thanks for letting me be part of your family and give them all my best appropriate affection. You will. I hope you guys learned so much about having a dog and having that part

of your evolving family. I know Matt was so helpful to me in the time where I needed it most, and it meant a lot to me to be able to share him with you guys. So thank you for tuning into Katie's Crib and I would love to hear from you guys so we can continue navigating this mama thing together. Email me at Katie's Crib at shamaland dot com. You guys are incredible. I am so thankful to have you in my tribe. Love you, love you, love you. Get some sleep again. Katie's Crib is a production of

Shonda land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shonda land Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows coming for I Want You Want to Watch