Dealing with Post-Weaning Depression w/ Alison Eakle & Emily Rodgers

out to friends. That's how much she has. Hello, everybody, Welcome back to Katie's Crib. I'm so excited about this episode of Katie's Grip, which is postpartum depression that comes around weening. I don't know why no one talks about this. I don't know why there's no warning signs. I don't know why it happens the way it does. But I have come across so many friends that whether they wean at six months, three months, one month, one year, one and a half years, whatever, they have a major hormonal

drop off and it is postpartum depression. And yet we are not prepared for this area. So I have two friends on the podcast today, Dear dear, dear, dear personal friends of mine who also know each other because we were the same mommy and me class. And the first of this dynamic trio is Alison Acle. She is Shonda Land's Chief Content Officer of TV and film. Listen to that title. She joined Sean Lannon two thousand of their teams.

She's developed a number of drama and comedy projects for ABC, including the series How To Get Away with the Murder Station nineteen. She is also the co executive producer for Bridgton and Inventing Anna. On a personal level, like Ruben, saying, she also had a postpartum depression while weaning. We've got Emily Rogers, who is a former corporate attorney turned stay at home mom of two highly opinionated, excellent, incredible girls, the older of which is in nursery school with my son.

She has experienced postpartum depression after weaning with her older daughter, Evie. She is currently weaning her younger daughter, Audrey. She's originally from Vancouver, Canada, and she now lives in Los Angeles with her husband, daughters, and her cat. Welcome to Katie's crib. Oh, and Allison lives with her cat, right your okay, thank god? Okay, I was the cat is here. The cats are year my son. All he wants is a cat and a fish. So I don't know, I think not, Yeah, that's not

a good duo, right, That's what I tell him. But he doesn't really get it. He's just starting to understand that, like when he eats beef or that's like like he's asking weird questions. But anyway, let's get back to the point of this podcast, which is I want to focus on the period when you're breastfeeding and you're weaning off of breastfeeding. And this is, like I said quickly in the intro that for some reason, why the fucking hell

is nobody talking about this? Uh. Post weaning depression, according to parents dot com, is a term used to describe depression that can occur after a woman stops breastfeeding. Via very Well Family dot com. Post weaning depression may occur concurrently with postpartum depression, but it's a distinct experience. Most importantly, post weaning depression is linked in time with the ending of breastfeeding, whereas postpartum depression is linked with the birthing

of a baby. Okay, I'm going to shut up now, Allison. Let's start with you. Yes, you breastfed your glorious son. And when did you know? Baby? He is the greatest king of all babies. I love him so much. When did you know that it was time to wean? Well? I don't think I did. I think this is why

this whole thing snuck up on me. And it's interesting that it's it's called kind of post or weaning related depression because it didn't manifest for me in any of the ways that I classically understood what depression would look like. So I feel like I was missing the signs. Shall we say? For me? It was a raging dose of anxiety is the best way, like a paralyzing dose of anxiety. And what had happened was I'll take it. He's so Walt is his name. He's a little bit Chris Farley,

a little bit Philip Seymour Hoffman. He's a giant baby. Only the Chief Shanda Land Content Officer would nail her son like you have described your son is to pitch like I'm like that, Oh my gosh, you've nailed it. Okay, okay, so Walt is he's a big dude. He's not like, uh, a little little big no. And look he was a little baby was born. There was a lot of drama in the hospital of like he wasn't eating, and we

get that's a whole another side note of it. But I was very lucky he took to breastfeeding, but it was never enough for the sensatiable beast of a baby, so you always we were always supplementing with formula, so it wasn't it wasn't odd. Around two and a half months, I started tiptoeing back into the Shawna Land waters that I'd missed so dearly, and Walt started doing some very part time daycare and over the next two and a

half months take him to about age five months. I thought I was just gonna be able to you know, we're work from home. It's a pandemic to I'll we're just start you know. I got vaccines while I was breastfeeding, and I was like, this is great. All I want is for my son to have all the vaccines because I thought that that's what the science was communicating and

this is hugely important. I'm going to do this as long as I can, and I can pump from home, but then I forgot that the other side of work from home and COVID is eighteen meetings back to back, right, So I was not pumping as much as I should. And essentially, I think a little bit of like back to work stress or pumping kind of scheduling issues turned into my body starting to wean itself. So this is a little different than I think, Like, well, my kids, one,

this feels about the right time. It was like my body was cutting back. I was down to like at best and making making like two to four ounces a day, right, and I had a little bit of a stockpile, but it was and I'm just hanging on for dear life. So i am just nothing's coming out. But I'm like pumping, I'm doing the tease, I'm taking the pills and doing the whole all the lactation help. Right. Oh, this like

breaks my heart. I'm only interjecting because I have to say, like, I've had a lot of friends whose bodies just slowly stopped either slowly stopped producing or just fully stopped producing. And it was so terrifying. All of those feelings we talk about feeling like I'm failing. I can't. And I think there's so much triggering for motherhood around the ability to feed or not feed your baby and how much or how little, and you use that to like directly

associate with your value and how well you're doing. And I think in Allison's case, probably when you were back to work, like you felt like, well, I can at least give him this, And now that's like falling off. I mean, oh my god, I can't even imagine in the vaccine again, I'm thinking, I'm I'm thinking I'm shielding him from COVID, right, like, Okay, this is this is like the mission here, right, So he's got it in

my head, no science to support it. I'm just like, if he gets a little bit every day, it's like a little bit of a vaccine whatever I was telling myself. And look, we're in the middle as we record this, we're in the middle of this like gigantic, terrifying formula short of and I can't talk about triggering and paralyzing. I read those that news now and I'm like, I don't know what I would have done. You know, seven months ago, I have goose bumps all over my body.

Oh my god, it's awful, and I feel like kind of no one cares. But that's a side note. But but like people are not giving it its due of how insane this is. But that's what that's what happened with me, was like my body was just like we've reached the end of a journey. I just wasn't ready to let go, not even for anything truly, just this kind of very utilitarian thing where I thought I was still giving him COVID vaccine vietname, which is so weird.

I know, no it's not, it's really it's really important, and it was really I I felt that way for sure. I felt that way totally about my breast milk and getting vaccinated and feeling like I was doing my part in this pandemic to try to protect my unvaccinated baby.

Like that was definitely a huge, a huge, huge thing. Okay, when did you start to realize that you were maybe having disproportionate anxiety, that this wasn't um you were feeling not your usual self, even though I mean, how could you he had a baby five months earlier, but still right, it's like, oh, I'm not I was not my zesta usual self. For many reasons, but I think, look for me, I've always lived my life with a bit of an anxiety and worry. It's in producing. I think there's a

certain amount of help of it that helps you. Right. I feel like Bill Hater. So many people have spoken to like how creatively anxiety can be a help, right. Yes, it had passed, allowing me to um, to put drive in my heart or allow me to anticipate problems. I think the day I will never forget was I was on our couch in the living room trying to compose an email about a note that was not easy to give, which in UM you know, working with writers, this is

something you do all the time. Right that you figure it out, you move past it. And my husband just looked at me at one point t J and was like, you've been writing that email for four hours. And I realized I had been sat in the same spot, my knee vibrating on my laptop, trying to write the same unal for four hours. And I don't think I even understood what was happening. And it was him finally being

like worried about it. I think maybe two and a half weeks prior to that, we had done our first trip with Walt to Palm Springs with one of my best friends and her husband and there two and a half year at the time, and I remember thinking it was one of the I hadn't like properly planned a place to pump um, so I, you know, we're all sharing this house and also kind of working from there, and I just all of a sudden remember this like strange feeling in my stomach of like I don't feel

like I have much. This would be so much fun, and it is, but I have this like sort of damocles hanging over my head. I don't know what's wrong. Something is freaking me out. And it kind of cast Paul on the triple a little because I just I remember walk up kind of sunburned for the first time, and I maybe lost my mind. I was like, I've ruined him and he'll never work out her And it was such an outsized reaction and I could see it

a little bit. But as the next two and a half weeks of my three week journey with this intense anxiety and depression, now that I understand it, I don't think I knew what was really coming and how bad it would get because eventually, Yeah, by the time t J caught me writing an email for four hours, I

had slowly stopped eating and slowly stopped sleeping. And it was that was kind of like towards the end of like finally recognizing like I have to do something really drastic right now to like stop this and pull myself back. Did you remember, aside from having just very disproportionate reactions to like Walt having a really bad sunburn, or you not being able to really a function Maybe you're really tired, but like you were functioning at work and now all

of a sudden functioning is starting to be questionable. Do you have any examples of like thoughts you were having at the time. Oh my god, I'll never forget the thought I had, which is I had remembered filling out all of my pregnancy disability paperwork for when you file with the State of California for your maternity leave and all your benefits. You and I literally had this thought, which is so wild now, but I was like, I think I'm gonna have to file for disability. I think

I can't work ever again. Like it was that extreme where I was like, oh, I guess this is it, right, my brain is broken. And I think for you think that postpartum depression is going to look a certain way. Fuck, everyone I know thinks that they've broken, that they're broken, and they're going to be insta like everyone well yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. I was like, what else can I do? I suppose, but it and it was such an intense but I think that's the strange nature of this. It

was such an intense but casual thing. The other thing that was happening is we were pulling out of Afghanistan. Um, the US was leaving Afghanistan, and if you remember, it was nothing but just intense footage at the airports of like people hating their kids to soldiers being like, get my baby at it. And I just remember that was the other part is like, no humans should be spending this much time scrolling through I don't know, Instagram reels

not even cool enough for TikTok alice an eagle. But it was just like I think I sucked up my algorithm for life. For life. My algorithm now is like dead dark, get you a new name. We have to get you a new Instagram and start over. Oh my god, or be like how did I deal? With child asses like bump bump bump, bom bomp op where they like knock their heads in and I'm like their hands together.

I'm like, how did I get on this algorithm? I think it's from the period I was waning, because I think once the anxiety was rolling, I was just like, yeah, I want to and did. There'd be those very traite things of like your baby's only small for four years, and then a little of that flooding could comes flooding in of like the breastfeeding journeys ending for me, and that's a big milestone. So I think the weird thing about it was it would flip flop between intense and

same thought. I earned nothing saying that's terrible word, and your fingering thought outsized reaction, right, it was like this intense, outsized reaction that came to my brain in a very casual manner, or it was sobbing for two hours at videos of soldiers handing children or of civilians in Afghanistan handing babies soldiers, and I'm like, this is not normal,

this is not usually my vibe um. And you know, then there would be on top of that, like the panic of like and now I've wasted all this time that I need because my work brain is going so slowly that I have to now that's now that times God that I needed this like extra buffer. So it's sort of a compounding effect, is the best way I can think of it. My last question for you and then I need I want to hear Emily story two

is I know you were not sleeping at all. Your anxiety was reaching so bad that I know you also started getting two and you weren't eating. I remember this because when we spoke, I was like, funk, we need to get to be secure. Word for it spoke when I called you sobbing on a FaceTime on your vacation,

Poor Katie lows Man, just the absolute go to parent moment. Look, I have been on that I have been on your side of that place as well, where I have reached out and needed a FaceTime and some of the darkest ship I've ever seen. And I took one look at your face, which is that classic for people who are listening you, Um, you are not recognizable as the person I know. It's so fucked And but the other funked up thing is you know it will like being on the other side of it as I was when you

called me. I was like, you will be okay, and you will get through it, and you will feel like yourself again and you will enjoy like it's all going to be okay. But that does not seem possible right now. Like that just does not a possibility right now. M What did you do with the is three weeks to

kind of get through it? I mean I leaned on t J so much, um and and also, look, I'm lucky I work at a really supportive place with bosses who have not like they haven't seen this before, right, bosses who have had women I think, accustomed to being type A professionals dealing with different challenges that come in all shapes and sizes, with the idea of new motherhood. Right.

So it's like Shonda Betsy, all of my colleagues, my team, Annie Marko Fwong, everyone was just like always there to help and probably could tell something was like a little off. I think I wound up realizing I'm masked better than I thought I had. Honestly, like, I think what was going on side my head was a lot worse than what was presenting. So there'd be a little moments where i'd let some pressure out where I would just say to Betsy be like, look, Betsy, I don't know if

today's my best day. I think something's going on right just so it's like okay, I can get it out there for a moment. But I think there was just this like power. I remember one meeting with a writer of Zoom where I was I had a moment where I was like, Okay, I'm outside of my body, watching myself in this meeting. I'm not really here, but I think it's going okay with that feeling. I know that feeling. I know that feeling. Oh my god, We're like, oh interesting,

Allison's having a meeting. Oh crazy. I remember having this. I remember when I was like, oh, I'm not functioning anymore. When I had UM, I had to do a voice one line pick up in Vivo and I I play I don't even remember the character's name, but I had a role that i'd done pre pandemic, pre baby, and they needed me to do one pickup line. And I sobbed to my friend Jackie saying, I don't think I can work for five minutes, Like I'm in big fat trouble.

I don't know if I can pretend for five minutes like nothing's going on, just to record one line that was like wow, what you got there or some ship like that, and I was like, I am never been so scared the cuff right now? Yeah, okay, that's that's you're the pro and that's why you're like, oh no,

you get to like a non functioning place is really scary. Yes, But the thing that saved me was the after I faced time with you and you let me sob I knocked myself out with like a bend and drill right because I slept, took the baby, the baby shifts that night, and I never looked back to breastfeeding. It was over. It was done. I barely had anything left. I remembered your cabbage leaf advice from an earlier season one Kati's crib o g But it was over. I was done,

And I remember it was the same weekend. I just like slept, and then we had a weekend and Walt started solids and I was like, goodbye breastfeeding, And by Sunday night, I was myself again. And it was the most bizarre experience and I feel very lucky that it wasn't that it wasn't a longer drawn out experience, but

that was how instantaneous once I let go. And I get why people sometimes don't advocate for this, because everyone's like, no, we should breastfeed as long as again it's great, but like, I just had to let it go and it was done, it was over. I remember when we were face timing and you were at your one of your lowest bottoming

out moments of and I was getting to you. I know we had been texting and stuff like that, but once you face time to me and you had been going through three weeks to four weeks of no sleep, anxiety attacks, not eating, stressing beyond all belief like, and I remember just being like in my head, oh god, I hope she just stops like it's not because at some point what I always found interesting too. And then Emily,

I have to your story. But I always thought it was really interesting when someone was like, whenever you decide or your body decides that it's time, and and hopefully you don't have this kind of reaction, you get this opportunity where you have to find other ways to connect to your child. Um, because I personally realized that I spent so much time breastfeeding and sort of taking for granted like that's my time with the baby, but I'm

really looking at my phone. Are you looking at Instagram reels or like answering emails and ship like that, And I'm not, And I'm just saying like, well, this is my time with the baby, but like, is it really

And then I remember when I weaned. I'll be like, oh, it's really important that I have other ways to calm him, because I also used breastfeeding as like my way to like, you know, make him feel comfort, make him feel this, make it feel that, and so it's just like an interesting thing for anyone listening, like it's I try to reframe it in my mind as like the opportunity to

learn how to comfort and mother in like other ways. Anyway, I will remember that FaceTime, and I honestly let it be known, said I was so honored to be on the other side of that call, and I I truly was. I was so so so honored to be on the other side of that call. And I really in my heart was like, she needs sleep. Take whatever. Fucking Bena Jules an X ambience. If you got on hand, you're not taking care of the baby this weekend. Eat anything

and everything, please God, but you have to sleep. Emily has to UM. Beautiful girls and very different. They're very different. I'm thinking about that now. UM. And what's crazy about me and Emily's journey is that we were pregnant with both of our kids at the same time. It's just sucking awesome. So I want to talk to you about your experience with UM ev right now, because I know you're in the midst of it with Audrey. I'm curious

how it's going because I'm still happening. But tell me about your breastfeeding journey with Evie and when you knew, similarly how we started with Alison, how you knew it was time to wean for you. I had a very interesting relationship breastfeeding UM. I was incredibly lucky. I had more milk than I could possibly have used. And and one of the interesting things that happened early on with breastfeeding was I actually had my milk ducks and my armpits all filled up, and I was I had like,

you know, dinosaur eggs sized like glands. Emily's face and for everyone listening, I have love. I have given Emily Rogers milk out to Like if we can say this, I've given Emily Rodgers milk out to friends. That's how much she has. Anyone who I ever get a text from that's like I'm running low. I don't have or is surrogate or da da da da. I'm like, just call Emily. Just call Emily. She's feeding all of the

Los Angeles area. Okay, but yeah, And so I had so much milk, But part of that was just my relationship with it was always very different, interesting because it had such an effect on my body. And I really wish that I had known about postpartum from weaning, because I was so clearly a candidate for it given how much milk I had. I was also an endometrios as patient. I mean I am an Endometrios's patient, and so my hormone levels have always been insane. My goal for breastfeeding

Evy was I wanted to get to a year. That was that was what I was trying to go for. I obviously had the milk to do it. It wasn't hard to get to a year. And then once I got to a year, I said, you know what, I'm done, And I just didn't think about it, and I started dropping a feed a week because that's what some people tell you to do. You just go drop a feed a week. Now that I know about postpartum weaning, I

should have taken a lot longer to do it. I should have let my body adjust over time to do it. And that was just what I should have done. I mean not to say that anybody else should have done that, but I didn't. And at the same time, there were all these things going on in our lives. Um My husband had just quit his corporate job to go out on his own, and Evie was I was. I didn't know this at the time, but being with her as

a mother started feeling like a chore. I remember there was one day that she had somehow there's like a two part tuberculosis tests that they give kids at various stages, and she had somehow failed the first skin test, and I knew we hadn't done any traveling. We she did not have tuberculosis. But they said, we want to give

her the blood test for tuberculosis. And I have this, you know, I have a one year old and they're telling me I need to do a blood draw and they were going to send me to a quest lab, like just some random quest lab. And I said, absolutely not, I will go to the children's hospital and see no lab where they you know, dropped. And I pitched a fit in my pediatrician's office. And that afternoon, somehow, my well, after I took my daughter to get her blood draw, crying, crying, crying,

you know, this one year old. And I'm sitting in my car after and I'm crying, and I don't remember why. I somehow got a call from my doctor, my regular doctor that day. She must have been following up with the test or something. And I just burst into tears on the phone, you know, in the car with Evie crying in the backseat, and and and I was telling her all of the stuff that was going on, and she said, you know what, honey, I think you've got

to crush it. And I'm really really lucky that I had a primary care physician who could just point that out to me so easily and with such care and such, you know, just really understood who I was, what I what I should have been like, and how I should have handled all of these things. My husband likes to say, I'm the best in a crisis, and so when all of these things were happening to us and I wasn't

handling it well. I mean, my doctor knew that, and she just said, you know what, like something's wrong, it's not crazy insane, like I wasn't having crippling anxiety. I wasn't having any of those things. It was so subtle, but they figured it out. And my doctor was just just said, I'm going to put you on a low dose of Lexa pro. Let's see how it goes. And I went on it. And a few weeks later, um a dear friend of a mutual friend of ours, Mary O'Malley,

who's been on your podcast. I told Mary what was going on in my life, and she said, I think it's great that your doctor puts you on the US, but let's get you some professional women's health like psychiatry. And she put me in touch with her psychiatrist and he I've been in treatment with him ever since. I've never stopped. And he, I mean, he he changed my life.

He really did. And like I said, I didn't have any of that crippling stuff, but you know, he he got me on the right dosage afterwards, we you know, and and he just he just really helped me figure it out. And then it was the hindsight part of it, and it's it's so frustrating that it took me getting on medication to realize what was going on with me. But I was looking back on things and thinking, oh my gosh, I missed out on having fun with my

daughter for a while. I mean it was I don't think I ever in my head thought of her as a chore. But I realized after I came out of that fog or whatever it was, that I I could see that that's how I had been feeling. And then I just started experiencing joy again being a mom. Mm hmm. Did you have any postpartum depression right after the birth or postpartum anxiety? Did you have that? See, that's the

fucking crazy ship. It's like we hopefully we're doing our due diligence of like preparing people to look at it in that first six week window, you know, but you're see, I know people who they've gotten postpartum depression around the time they've weaned, and that can be six months later in Emily's cases, a year later. And you didn't have

it at all when you brought Evie home. From the hospital. Yeah, And interestingly, I had been so prepared to have postpartum depression from the birth, and we had you know, we had people lined up to talk to you. I had taken numbers from people. My Husben was, you know, kind of told this is the things you need to look out for. And I was cognizant of all that because of my end though, and recognizing that I had all of these hormonal things but never applied it to weaning.

And also I had somewhat of a traumatic birth. I I broke my tailbone um in delivery. And so when I had gone through all of that without experiencing postpartum depression, in part because my husband, like he, like I said, he says, I'm really good in a crisis, and so I got when I got through all of that and after having you know, broken my tailbone and breastfed through it and all of that, and I was fine. I it did not occur to me at all that I

could possibly have postpartum at any point. It's so funny you say that, because honestly, like that is I think that is the thing that stuck up on me too, is that you have all of the meetings and all of the pamphlets. And I did have a therapist through my winning experience. I should have shouted that out too. Oh that's yeah. I mean I wasn't in therapy. It wasn't any of that. But never occurred to me that it could happen with weaning, especially given the experience that

I had had. You know, it was just if I was going to have depression, I was going to have it after breaking my tailbone having a baby. Literally like the baby, that can happen. But yeah, we should do a whole another thing. They don't talk about another thing. My god. I mean, I just think and what's crazy for me? Um. In my personal experience weaning Albe, I

had the similar thing to Emily. I mean, I felt, it's so interesting having a second baby because I just I've I'm doing it so differently this time around, just mothering in genter in general, where I'm having this conversation with you. And when I was breastfeeding Albey, I was so stressed all the time about how much, how little, how many bottles. I can remember when he was coming up on a year, I was out of my stock. I was on Broadway. I was pumping every intermission I

was exhausted, um, my supply was heavily diminishing. Um, and I was confused thinking I had to get him to a certain point before I made him to cow's milk and he had to have bottles. And it was so fucking stressful and I was so miserable and measuring everything. And I just say that to mean that now that I'm doing this with Vera, I I never pump, I never measure, I never care, I never know when I'm going to breastfeeder. It's very like sort of like if I'm at work, she doesn't get it. If I'm home,

she gets it. Like I have no idea what I'm making, Like everything is just like whatever. And it's been really a much more pleasurable experience. UM. I also think it's lined up that I've had acting jobs this year that are less grueling schedule, So I think that's also a huge, huge part of this. Like if you're a working mom and you're on a pump schedule, I mean I did

that with Albe and that's a crazy, crazy ride. Um. But I had to wean, albeit at around a week before a year because I when I was doing waitress on Broadway, I got MERSA, which is a deadly staff infection, and they called me and they said, I'm so sorry, but we're gonna have to try a million different kind

of antibiotics so that this doesn't spread. And you just had your last breastfeed, and I ugly cried and had the opposite experience of you all, which was I ugly cried and then felt such relief and finally felt like myself, like I was done. I looked in the mirror two weeks later and wait had fallen off for me that just because my boobs were like flat, dehydrated socks now. And I just had a different experience, which is funny

because I had postpartum depression after birth. All of this to say, you don't know what you're gonna get, Listeners, you don't know what you're gonna get. So it's Katie's crib point to have all these different guests on to make you aware and not make you scared, but just make you aware that if either of these things should happen, and all of the options in between, you are not alone, and there are things that you can do to get

help and to feel better. There are some things you can do to help minimize symptoms of depression around weaning, which is weaning gradually Emily Rodgers, which takes me to what are you doing for the Audrey situation? It's interesting, you know, like best laid plans and all of that. Um. I had talked to Dr Sparago, my psychiatrist. I had talked to my therapist. I had talked to friends, I talked to anybody that I could talk to about what was your weaning plan? Like how did you do it?

And so? And I had come up with this elaborate, you know, scheme where I was going to wean one feed per month and that was it. And it's such a lawyer like you do anything, like like I just think you're so meticulous in all of this. I love it. Okay, so you had this totally elaborate, detailed plan. And then Audrey laughed at me, and so did Evie in fact, because it was a combination of both of them. I was still pumping at night right before I went to bed.

I dropped that first. That was easy. A few weeks later, I said, okay, I'm gonna drop. I'm gonna drop a feed. And in my head I had a plan that I was going to drop her afternoon feed first, and I don't remember at the time, I didn't why I had insisted on it being the afternoon feed, because one morning Audrey chopped down, like in her late morning feed, teeth and all, just like took a bite and I was like, nope, eleven am is done and we're dropping it today and

it's done. So then I dropped it. And then I realized a week later why I hadn't why I had wanted to drop the three o'clock feed first, because I was taking my daughter to those ten day intensive swim classes every single day at three thirty, and so I couldn't, like I couldn't just nurse her. I had nanny's line, you know, I had childcare lined up for when I was taking her to swim class. There was going to be a rush of me picking her up from school and like so the whole thing. I ended up dropping

two feeds in two weeks. I was like, oh my god, this is exactly the opposite plan. So all right, so everything you've planned is not what's happening. Welcome shot. Yeah, and so how do you feel? How do you feel? I mean, you must feel okay, because you're on you have the support and you're on medication, right, I have

the support. I'm on medication. I mean. The best thing that happened to me was when my husband and Dr. Sparago and I actually had an appointment together before while we were deciding, you know, when to have our second baby. And this was maybe five months before the pandemic hit, and we were talking about should I go off the antidepressants before I get pregnant again, YadA, YadA, YadA, and

we decided, and I made the decision. I was like, you know what, I still need to be a good mother to my older daughter, So I can't go into postpartum depression again because I won't be able to mother properly. And so and let's face it, your older one takes so much more patience and the language and all of that. That's so much more important that you need to kind of be on for. And so I stayed on anti

depressants the entire time. And thank god, because then months later we're in a fucking global pandemic and and everybody went on them. Yeah, exactly, and so um, luckily I actually upped my medication. UM after I gave birth to Audrey. Um things just weren't feeling totally right. Everything was stressful COVID I mean, you know, trying to protect your babies.

I mean, and Katie and I both went through very stressful times of feeling like we couldn't protect our babies from COVID, and obviously Alison you went through the same thing, like the little bit of vaccine that I can get, Like, so we were all in that frame of mind. Anyone who's mothering, especially under five year olds during this pandemic, or and we're pregnant during this pandemic. It it was so intense. It was so scary, terrifying, and I was

the full coming in being like perfect timing. Wow, March so much sorted getting my vaccines. Like I was just mad that I missed being able to get it as a pregnant lady. And pregnant lady, what do I say, just as a lady. That's I thought I was coming in And then it was like the oh Macron Christmas. Then we all got COVID a month ago, just rolling through the household. But it is well, I think I can't even imagine the early days. Honestly, oh my god, it was. I was pregnant the week before shutdown. I

was never forgot. I was like, we're, oh, yeah, it was so awful. Um, Emily, you're feeling okay right now even though your plan is not the plan. Yeah, I'm feeling okay right now. I actually just dropped another feed, so I'm down to one a day now, and um, I'm feeling good. I mean, I'm I'm in treatment. I talked to my psychiatry regularly, and there's so much of motherhood that is letting go of your own control. And

I've learned that for the last several years. You think I would remember when I'm making an elaborate plan for weaning, that it's not going to go according to plan, and that Audrey has her own ideas and she's basically weaned herself. And in many ways, you know, she stopped, she stopped um feeding every single feed. She The only one that she's really attached to was the morning feed, and so that's the one I've kept. And we'll see how much

further I go with that. Can I ask a queasy question, a little bit of a woo uh do what ressault? When the weaning happened? Did either of you ever just have this instinctual thing of just like I don't know, he seems upset, he's teething. It's a couple of months since weaning. Should I throw this baby on the boob? Did that ever? Strip? Because I almost did it a few times where I was like, I don't know what

would happen. I didn't want to, like unleash the beast again, but I was like, there would be these moments I'd almost forget I wasn't doing it no matter how. Even still there's moments where I'm like, and I sometimes forget

how it feels. Yeah, it's weird, Like I'll I remember when I weaned out the like I was like, no, we're not doing that right now, or like you don't, like you said unleash the beast, like you don't want to like open up that can of worms again and confuse them like that, it might still be a possibility. If it's not a possibility, but I do think, Alison, I'm curious if I'm pretty sure that if a baby started nursing on you regularly, you would start producing milk again?

Is that true? Am I You're out? I don't even know. I mean, let's let's throw to our panel of down. Does it only don't think so. And I can't believe I'm bringing this up, but I read an article the other day that when you stop breastfeeding, your boob basically eats it self, so all of the stuff that your breasts make in order to breastfeed, all that stuff is like your boob eats it all up so that it's no longer and that's why it goes to looking like

a dehydrated sock. And anyone, I don't know what that means. It just works for me. But like I anyone I know who had big boobs and hated them their whole life, like loved their chest after they weaned because it was just like they've never been like that kind of flat before. Um. Okay, one of the additional things you've learned through post weening depression that no one told you about that you wish you had known all of it. I honestly, I just

like truly have never heard of it. I don't I know this, And I read a lot of books, I've crept a lot. I had a top o b G y n um apparently, by the way, I don't know if you all knew this, but and I was panicking and didn't know if just stopping would stop it. When I called and she didn't get back to me about it, she said, oh, yeah, I already told the guy that

like the Kenemine therapy clinic that you'd be calling. And I had no idea that kenemine therapy is now one of the treatments for postpartum I was like, special k man. I just rolled up. You know, yeah, kenemine would be special k um. People are doing small, small doses of that actually for postpartum depression. And they're also doing micro dosing mushrooms. Guys. People are just getting into it. People, let's open up our brains. But yeah, I really couldn't

believe no one it's anything. And I have an amazing WhatsApp group that is shout out Montown. It's just like sixty women in the business who've had kids over the last year and sharing very openly with each other. And I remember when it was a smaller group. I did just put it out there. Finally, guys, I don't know what I just lived through. And all of them said

that they'd only seen one Cosmo article. And that article actually, and I can't remember the name of it now, but it was like, why did no one tell me this would happen from like five years ago? And um it was it described perfectly the moment I had in palm Springs of just like sitting there and suddenly this deep sadness just opening up over you. But it's not. No one talks about it. Emily, I don't know if you had heard of it. I just didn't know what was happening.

I literally didn't know it existed. And I want this is the conspiracy theorist to me, I'm like, do they not tell us because they want to us breastfeed? And they're so, But I'm like, there's a little of that, right there is a little bit of like, you know, you hope for the best and know that if there's a problem, of course, and we'll come talk to you about it. But I almost would have It's not like

it would have changed my drive to breastfeed. Had I known about this, I just would have been like, got it. I know now to look for the signals of that. Oh yeah, you could get postpartum depression from having a baby, and it doesn't stop having a baby, you know, or I mean it doesn't really equally equate, but how but I think. I think I personally still would have been like, we're going for it. At least when it hits, i'll know what it is. I can dive into action, will

get that to do list going. But it was best to do find out why I think I need disability, go on disability. At this moment, you're the absolute fucking bes I'm obsessed with you. Okay, Emily, what about you? What are some additional things you learned through post meaning depression that no one told you about that you wish you'd known. Actually, when I found out that I was doing this podcast, I asked my psychiatrist. I said, if you could tell women, Yeah, if you could tell women

about postpartum and weaning, like, what would you say? And he said, I want women to understand that even though we think that breastfeeding is controlled by the breast, it's actually controlled by the brain. It's all neurotransmitters and hormones. Are you know, I'm going to botch them medicine, But it's the neurotransmitters in your brain that control whether or not you breastfeed. It's up to your brain. And so I think when you think of breastfeeding as a mental

function rather than a physical function. It really opens your mind to the idea that it will. Of course, you can get depression from it. I mean, you're you're basically stopping these neurotransmitters from producing prolactin and you know, oxytocin and all of these things that give us the euphoria of breastfeeding. It's also the waves, which is something that's

really hard for some women to shake. It's like when you have a letdown producing milk and you get serotonin flooding your brain because you love your baby, which is why milk is happening. Then it dries out and then it that's all gone. It's like very Some women like literally get headaches every time they get a let down. Thank you to doctor, your doctor for telling us that bit. I'm like, doctors, Okay, if a mom is suspecting she has post weeding depression, what questions can she ask herself

to confirm? For me, it's always about functioning. Have you lost function? Like I'm always like, but I but you know what in Emily's case, it's different than that. For me, it was like I couldn't even return a text. Allison took four hours to write an email. She could have written for Emily. It was that, which I also think is a great tell you've lost the joy in doing these things, like there's just a real And I had that too, which was just I no longer felt joyous

taking care of my children at all. I mean I not everybody has a partner when they have a baby, but I did, and my husband and I I found that the second time around, at least, when I had Audrey, I checked in with him a lot. I was like,

how do you think I'm doing? And I think that that question is just so important because with me, at least, it was so such a gradual process to getting to where I was depressed that if he weren't paying attention, I don't think he would have even really noticed, because it's just you get lost in your own I mean, he was super busy. I was super busy. We had the kid, you know. But when I made a point of asking him after I had the baby, probably like once every two weeks, I just asked him, I said,

how am I doing? How do you think I'm doing? Especially since I think a lot of times after you have a baby, or when you're whatever it is that's going on, I think a lot of husbands don't want to say to their wives like you're you're not being normal or whatever it is like that, but they don't want to call attention to the fact because they don't want to kiss you off and there's all of the stuff going on, and they want to be understanding and sort of like give you more leeway to have the

emotional experience that you're having. But it's it's a it's a difficult balance to try and figure out. And the best person who knows you, like, the person who knows you best is your is your partner. And he was able to say to me, you know at certain times he's like no, I at least after all he was like, I think something's going on. I think you should talk to your doctor. I think you should tell him these things. Can I jump on the call with you with your doctor?

Can we all talk about it together? Um, which I was really lucky, Like my Jamie has been on calls with me and my my psychiatrist. He's the ship. You both have such wonderful partners. Oh my god, that's amen for that. I mean truly again, like exactly, like if I try to think about the thing about questions, you can ask yourself. Here's one of you. Would ask me, Katie, what coping mechanisms did you use? And I was like, none,

it was terrible. I stop dating it. I did for a while still try to go back to things that used to work. So meditation was a huge one. Um. I would get nervous about sending you know, cut notes or whatever it is, and before I would say down to do it, I would go meditate and I would just it didn't work. Like it was not unlocking any calm. I was vibrating and thinking through the whole. It wasn't just like come back to your practice, cycle back, No,

it was it was not working. And going on walks like t J would force me to leave the house sometime around five pm every day. That used to be so calming to me in a early pandemic days and did nothing for me. I would come back just as so. I think that's a good test, is like, are those things that usually calm me down, bring you back focus you do they still work? And if if they're not working, there might be something more aggressive happening even if you

do them inconsistently. That's that's the other thing that really helped me understand something goes wrong. I had the same thing. I remember hanging onto this like meditation app on my phone and like trying to play it to like go to sleep and just being like I am spinning the

funk out. I cannot do this. And then I remember going on Fai only walks for at sunset at five o'clock and just being so sad and like so feeling out of body, feeling like I was watching myself like, oh, you should be enjoying this, like you're going on a walk with your baby strap to you and your toddler and your husband, and I'm a shell, like a shell, like I I why I'm not in the experience like at all. It reminds me of something that I heard in my childbirth class about you know, whether or not

you should get an epidural. Tally A Moore taught my childbirth class, and she had said, you know, it's supposed to be painful, but you're not supposed to suffer. And I think that that's like a very good way of the parton too. It's supposed like just supposed to be hard, but you're not supposed to suffer, and it's not supposed to be so hard that it feels debilitating, or that it affects the way that you go about your life, or you have no joyless with your child. No, but

suffering is a different suffering. Suffering is different things. Analogy, but it's no, hard is different than suffering. Hard can be okay, you know, but suffering is a different thing. Um. What would you recommend to women who are going through or who suspect they have post weaning depression. One of the best things I could recommend to is, like, I

didn't have a general practitioner before I gave birth. It was just all on my OB G A N. She was my everything, her and her and my amazing rheumatologist for with my cool young people arthritists that I have middle aged people now. Um, but I wish I'd had a GP in place before I gave birth because I

didn't have a psychiatrist right so I didn't. I just had my my talk therapist and my O B G N. And I wish i'd had somebody I could have gone to in this very kind of like distinct way from both of those experiences to do an assessment at the early stages of it, just to be like, my, okay, what's happening and they could have then like guided the rest of that experience, because I think I had some like I just don't I think that would have allowed

me the freedom to maybe even I know this sounds weird, say things I wouldn't have maybe said to my b G, I N and my therapist about physically like what was happening, because I think I was a little nervous to admit I wasn't sleeping and eating and I was also like doing a high octane job and caring for a baby, and I feel like just a Mr g P. I just signed up with miss GPS. I don't have a

GP either, Like what the hell? And this is not as helpful for new moms, but like, as you're getting ready, have a have a person who's just like this separate entity, I think, and then can and they can be like, hey, I want you to see a psychiatrist right but in this and kind of have a speed and an ease

of care with that person. Because that was one of the things when somebody casually mentioned it to me in the midst of the weaning of like we'll get a GP and they can like see you and then they can get you a prescription, and I was like, a g you want me to find a GP in Los Angeles and I just seem like they've asked me to go to the moon. I was like, are you kidding there? So that was the one thing I really wish someone

had told me at a time. That's great. And your GP is the one who told you Emily right, Yeah, she's the one who fish interesting. Interesting. And what would you say to that question? I would say, talk to

the people in your community. Talk to them, Talk to your mom, friends, talk to or if you know you're the first person of your friends to have kids, go find you know, your sister's cousins, mother's neighbor's daughter, you know Whoever, because the moment I started talking to people about my postpartum depression, you discover that everybody you know as postpartum depression or depression of some sort. Everybody's medicated, everybody's got it off, like seriously, like everybody has a talk.

So yeah, you'll find referrals within your community, people that you trust, and just give them a call and talk to them. I love it. And last question that we always ask parenthood is parenthood should be a choice. Right up now, perfectly said, uh, perfectly said, parent parenthood is extremes. I think it's the best way I can think about it. Extreme lows and eyes at least in this all my

limited experience of fourteen months of it. But hats not limited because you were you were pregnant for a year before that, and you were trying for longer before that. I mean, this has been a fucking journey so and it's been extreme, and it's it's not a bad thing that it's extreme. It's a it is like none if there's power, and knowing it's extremes. Yeah, I'm so appreciative of you both coming on to Katie's crib and sharing your personal experiences. I think it will be so helpful.

I think hopefully we can add to the great canon of the Cosmopolitan article depression around Me, around weaning to hopefully make women more aware information is power and let them know that they're not alone and that this is fucking common. I freaking love you both. I love your children, I love your partners, I love your faces, everything about

you now everyone knows why I FaceTime do you crying now? No, right back at you, And so so endlessly grateful to be invited to be a part of this conversation and I do hope it, I do help, it helps people. Um and Emily helped me hearing your story, which could not have been more different from my own but still loves me feel connected. Yeah, definitely, thank you so much. Thank you guys so much for listening to today's episode. I want to hear from you. Let's chat questions, comments, concerns.

Let me know. You can always find me at Katie's Crib at Shonda land dot com. Katie's Crib is a production of Shonda Land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.