Caterina Scorsone on Finding Flow & Fighting for Equity

make an exceptional adult. Hi, everybody, Welcome back to Katie's Crib. My very, very good friend is on the podcast today. I love her. We are Shonda Land family. You know her, you love her as Dr Amelia Shephard on Gray's Anatomy. She is Katarinas Scorsone. She and I talk about so much stuff, raising three children in a pandemic. She's got three girls. Katerina was a doula. Did you know that

she like trained as a dula. Her daughter Pippa has Down syndrome, and we talk a lot about what that's like in her life, Teachable moments and engaging in conversations about disability. We talked about equity versus equality. We talk about life on set. Guys, this is a great episode. We talk about a lot of different stuff. And if you don't know who Katarina Scorsone is, that's crazy. But if you don't, here's a little bit more about her. Before she was Dr Amilia Shepherd on Gray's Anatomy. She

was Dr Emilias Shepherd on Private Practice. She's also Dr Amilias Shepherd on Station nineteen. What Watch on the Land? So many shows, so many shows, so awesome. Offscreen, Katerina's passion and purpose has been centered on her family, and like I mentioned, it includes her four year old daughter, Pippa, who was born with Down syndrome, and in recent years she's been using her platform to promote greater understanding and awareness and an effort to end stigmas around Down syndrome

and other disabilities. Katerina, thank you for coming onto Katie's crib. I'm so happy to see you. So great. I am so happy to see you. I have missed you. Um it was made very clear by Seana Riymes that Grayson Natomy and Scandal did not exist in the same world. Um, So I'm very grateful that, in the name of motherhood, we are currently creating our own crossover moment. We are, we are. But you were on we met on private practice. Oh yeah, I was on you. Oh please? I was fine.

But turns out it's a lesson never learned. I played a mother. It was my first ever working job in shaan Alyn. I played a mom who left her baby in the backseat of her car because she was too tired, and the baby asphyxiated and fried, and it was terrible that I that I think I should not be less That was the most horrifying of all The writer of that episode, I think someone told me, like that actually happens to like ten babies a year. Like the terrible thing.

They have apparently technology that you put in your car seat that can tell if like the weight hasn't lifted out of the car seat, and if it hasn't been when you leave, like an alarm goes off or something. Because it's a big enough issue that they were able to find like investors for that project because there's demand.

That's horrifying, but it goes to show you, like how tired or in your routine you're in as a mom, and like when you're pushed to the limits and you just you forget their baby in the car um First and foremost from that lovely topic, how are you doing? You are raising any year old, a four year old, and a one year old the majority of the pandemic, I only had one. How's the year been? Well, I don't oh, it's been it's been crazy, but it's been

kind of beautiful. It's been kind of beautiful to have all of the like crops of your existence just like totally stripped from you and you have to kind of like make it work. Were you home schooling the eight year old? Yes, like with math and reading and stuff. I mean, let's be clear, I was facilitating her on zoom. Also, my sister moved in with me, and so I had help. And I want to be crystal clear about that. Yes, I have three children, but no one can do this

on their own. And so for all of the people who are literally completely isolated, I mean, yeah, there's nothing to even say about that, because I have a village also, and I don't even understand. I literally don't understand, Like I just had to bring on an addish an old babysitter because I'm shooting at the same time that my husband's shooting and doing his pretzel business, and like we

couldn't handle it all, and it was totally insane. And with multiple children in Zoom school, you can't buy locate. You have to have like one kid on one computer and then another kid. I mean with Hippa, she has a lot of therapy so that she does, and so she's on another computer doing like occupational therapy and you you literally cannot do it all totally. There was no pretending anymore that we could be these like self sustaining,

isolate super moms. I've got it all going on. No one sees behind closed doors, but you know, like, yeah, no, it was a complete shit show. It was actually show. But that gave us all permission to be messy and permission to go, oh, I need community. I can't do this, and it's unreasonable for anyone to expect me to do this. This is not like a you know, like a moral failing. This is not laziness. This is not like, oh, I should have had better executive function and plan my time.

This is like no effing way. Sorry, I don't know if I'm allowed to swear on that you Oh my god, welcome to my Yes, you're fine, you want Yeah, you come from a big family, So was that something you knew you wanted? I did want three. And then there was a while where I thought maybe maybe I could only handle to um. And then I kind of got to a place where I think, again, this kind of recurring theme that's coming up over and over again is community.

I've seen in my life how family has been so important to me, thriving through challenging circumstances and just having like that shared history with people and people who have kind of known you and seen you grow and evolve over many years, and especially now, I think our our society is so kind of isolated and fractured pandemic or no pandemic, and so actually having like more community seemed appealing to me for myself, but also for the girls um that they would have teammates in life, and even

if they didn't get along, you know, they would still be kind of working out those muscles and figuring out how to compromise and how to be patient. That's a great way to think about it, actually, because I'm really close with I have one sibling, I have one brother, and we're really really close and I've always just like assumed that if I gave my son a sibling that they would be really close, And I had to look at it and be like, well, that's not a guarantee.

It's not a guarantee they're gonna like each other. It's not a guarantee they're going to get along or there that they will their whole lives. But even if they don't, You're right, it still is learning lessons. They're working out whatever they're here to work out, right, I mean what

I mean, look at our workplace. We have to be great actors and artists, but really, let's be honest, like a huge proportion of our skill as serious television actors is about getting along with others absubolutely getting along with personalities on day and days and at five am and a trailer versus two am on a Friday night and fifteen hours in when you've been in the rain all day and you've been up with your child all night, and then you're like showing up to work and you're

really fucking cranky. All of those things. A lot of it has to do with character, and yes, character building. I read that you became a trained doula before you were having your own kids. Tell me about that. What drew you to do that? UM? A few things, I mean one of them was that my sister, UM, she had a baby UM when we were pretty young, and she didn't have a partner at the time, and so

I was her birth coach through that process. She's kind of always like Marcia the beat of her own drum, and she was like, cool, I'm gonna do a home birth. And I was like what. I was like, horrid vibe, you know. But then I started reading material by on my Gaskin and and learning about it, and I was like, this is kind of great. So she had a home birth and I was her you know, accompaniment through that birth, and I saw this way, yeah, yeah, I decided to be a dula. And then I had my I had

three home births myself. I didn't know you had home birth. I had three home births, so I yeah, And so really went from I saw my sister, who was this kind of you know, wild young girl transition. I mean, the whole labor itself was so beautiful. We had like meditative music on, and this girl we knew, who was like a Ricky Master came over and like you put her hands on her, and it like focused her. Was

it long? Was it a long labor? No? I think it was like I want to say it was seven hours, and then oh, good lord, that's a joke, right, But that was the other thing. She was in the comfort of our own home, so she was very relaxed and comfortable and um. And again I'm going to do the disclaimer here, and home birth is not for everyone. I'm happy there are hospitals for people who need hospitals to have their babies and who feel safer in a hospital

or more comfortable there. The point of home birth is to give women who are candidates for it, that's right.

I've heard at length from home birth du Lahs that like you actually even have to like sort of qualify in a way that you're very low risk, that you know, the pregnancy itself is very low risk, Like they're actually all these things sort of have to check off to even really entertain the idea of right, And I think people don't realize that really the main job of the midwife is to monitor you throughout your whole pregnancy and

make sure everything is typical. In most cases, everything is typical because our bodies evolved for millions of years to be very good at doing this thing, which is why we have an overpopulation problem, right, right, you know what I mean? We're good at it. Actually yeah, but in some cases people might have like a different kind of pelvis, and the midwife is supposed to check that out right before we get into any sort of ship show exactly. So with three pregnancies and three home birds, do you

have a favorite? Are you even allowed to say that? God? I don't think I could say that, I know, right, but do you? Because I do, well, no different, I should say they're different. Mike Toddler's so hard right now, like he's such a three manager and every single thing is a negotiation. So you know, I'm just in it with him, right. He just got big trouble yesterday for hitting someone in the face with a stick, So we're

not like a great place. It's amazing that as a mother, I feel like when I'm locked in those power struggle moments where I'm like, oh my god, how are you capable of arguing like an attorney and you're only a child? And I can simultaneously me in like total frustration. But there's this tiny little voice that's like you're gonna be okay kid, Yeah, yeah, I feel the same way, like, oh my god, this is going to make an exceptional adult. But exactly, this is hell to tell me about the

labors and the pregnancies. How were they were they all different? Were they all were their similarities? Okay? So I mean I can't complain. They were pretty good. They were pretty good. I had a really only time. It's important to say these things. We have a lot of listening who are pregnant or who want to get pregnant, or or thinking about a second or third or fourth child, and I think that we also highlight a ton of not so great. So it's also really important to say when no, you

know what, I had three pregnancies and they were fucking awesome. Well, and I do want to say that one of the things that I was so frustrated with um historically, even before you know Shonda Land, which is this very like woman centric woman lad situation, before that, most TV writers were dudes, right, And so the storytelling, and again it's not just storytelling on television, it's cultural storytelling, was the kind of narrative through line that was designed to terrorize

women and make them fearful of themselves. Was that pregnancy and labor are this like pathology. Again, it was like doctors are in med school, they're learning about pathologies, and so if you put labor and birth into that category, you think it's an illness. It's not an illness. It's a beautiful, miraculous human function that again we evolved to do and are very powerful and good. And so they pathologize it, and the narrative is that it's this emergency,

it's terrible, we have to be rescued from it. There's someone in the grocery store. They drop a jar of pickles and shatters. They start screaming, the water breaks, the rush to the hospital as though they've been in a car accident. It's just so traumatic. It's so traumatic, and then they're rescued by these like male doctors in white and thank god those men were there, because I don't know how I would have had a baby with just woman and my vagina, but you could. But you could,

because that's how you do it. Yeah. I was just having this conversation with my friend who's do like any day, and she was like freaking out because her dula has like six people do at the same time, and she's not gonna like, can't you Will she be there? Will she not? Will she be there with? And I said,

I got news for you. It doesn't really matter. I said, I know you might want and picture this thing a certain way with certain people in the room, But the good news is you're enough, like you're going to get your own self through this, and your baby is gonna be here safely. And we've been doing this since like the beginning of time. There's there's really no option. You kind of get to like transition. Yeah, you're like, and I think we all have that moment at transition where

we're like, I've changed my mind. I don't think I would like to do this. So okay, your labors, um, I can't believe you had. Is it non medicated or unmedicated? Yeah? No, no medication. But listen, though, this is kind of cool,

tell me tell me well. One of the things that happened by studying Midwiffrey and studying Doulah stuff was I started learning about the human body and the human mind and the connection right and so so I was meditating throughout my pregnancy and a lot of it was centered on again deep programming this idea that the discomfort from labor is bad, bad, that this is a pology and you're getting injured. That's not what's happening. You're in discomfort.

That's true. I'm not going to take away from that, but it's not that discomfort is not a sign that like, oh my femur is broken, like it's progressing. Right. My Dula would always say to me, like one more contraction is like, it's not a bad thing. It's one step closer to meeting your baby, you know, even the languaging around it. I mean, I'm a Gaskin who talks a lot about it. It doesn't want to call it contractions because she's like the word contraction makes you tense up.

She calls the rushes beautiful. Right, imagery is like this wave kind of coming over you and like, you know, opening your cervix so your baby can come out. Dude, if I have another baby, which I am not, I would very much like to hire you as I love my Duelo. She's been on this twice and I'm obsessed with her. But maybe you can both do it. What made you retire your Duela straps, I don't know, as exhaust was it when you were like, and now I'm working in acting job eight million hours a day. Yeah,

kind of. I went down to the farm to study with an Ame Gaskins. Yeah. Yeah, to the farm, you guys. For everyone listening, I had a Megas Skin wrote a book. It's called I have it. What is it called again, Amazed Guy to Childbirth? I'd Amazed Guide to Childbirth. When you open the book, is it from the seventies? The book seventies books? YEA spiritualman Wifery was her first, like the first version of it. And in that she's like

and then you get the rushes and it's super groovy, man. Yeah, and you're seeing pictures of babies coming out of vagina's and there's just a lot of bush and you're like, this is so retro everywhere boobs and like lower children then I'll have these long beards. Yeah. And she had a farm where she would train midwives and people could go there and do like fully this amazing home birth style.

I don't know what her style. And yeah, the farm was actually the longest functioning commune in like American history. It started in the seventies. Her husband and partner was like a professor from Berkeley and the whole caravan of school buses. I don't know if you remember that be

heaven sound. And so it's this whole thing of like trying to like unplug and take back, you know, their own economy and and have women having their own babies because at the time, and I just talked about this recently, but at the time, women were taken into hospitals and men weren't allowed to go with them so they'd be all alone. They were put into like Twilight. Yeah. My husband's grandmother literally said I was put out under amnesia with both of my kids and then woke up like

and met them. Which why do I let's define trauma like like, how can you possibly process what just happened to you when you were unconscious? You don't know? Yeah, I mean that sounds absolutely horrifying, horrifying to me. It reminds me of like the clockwork Orange, like what's happening? Like, guys, this is so you actually went to the farm and trained there. Yeah, and that was super great. I didn't know like how deep it was, and I'm so here

for it. It was pretty great. I mean because I started acting like pretty young, but I wasn't necessarily married to it as like the whole thing I was going to do in my life at that time. I was doing it primarily to pay tuition for school, and then it kind of became this passion and this thing that I was loved and that got me into flow. But for me, acting is where I very easily and quickly

find flow. I'm so grateful for this path because it's so electric and it's so kind of did and you get to experience lives and connect with other actors and other lives and souls, and it can be so beautiful and powerful. But the thing is flow. The thing is not acting or entertainment industry, right, I totally agree. Yeah, So you can find flow wherever you are, yeah, right, And I think midwin free and childbirths, birth God, you

can find flow there, right. Yeah. And you're you're giving me this vibe of like, Okay, so you've always really been into birth, labor, pregnancy autonomy, like family, women, your sisters, like surrounded by all this. Did you experience any sort of postpartum where you were like, oh, ship, this is not what I thought it was going to be, Or any sadness or blues or depression or like wake up

calls anything like that. Like with with with having my kids, yeah, um, okay, God, they were all so different and at such different times in my life. I did not have significant depression. And some of that is probably you know, just roll of the dice, luck and uh and whatever my genetic predisposition is, and some of it, Let's be honest. I was back on set within weeks every single time I was on private practice. When I had Eliza, I think I was back to work six weeks, and then with Pippa, I

was back to work four weeks later. No way, and Pippa maybe it was a little longer because it was over the Christmas break with it wasn't the regular hiatus and and so with Pippa was not only like birth, but it was like adjusting to having a child with significant special needs. Speaking about Pippa, her real name is Paloma. Yes, how did you choose that beautiful name? Well, let's see the family part of it. I mean, Eliza Giles. That's

great English English. I love it so English, um and that and both of us have English uh in our in our backgrounds. Um. But I also um half Italian and my father was raised in Argentina and and so that's also there and Paloma means dove, and yeah, and so the idea of this kind of like holy spirit, peaceful little dove really appealed to us. Oh my gosh, it's it's absolutely gorgeous. How did you communicate to Eliza

and loosend to that Pippa had down syndrome. So when Pippa was born, Eliza was how old Eliza was four and a half. Oh, so she was pretty young. Mostly we just we're excited about her having a sister, and then we did say that she would stay a baby for a little longer. It's kind of the way we articulated it, and the way that's true. I mean, Pippa is hitting all of her milestones. She's just hitting them

later than other kids. But she jumps on the trampoline, and she has her favorite songs, and she sings like Leonard Cohen and write dances and on the tricycle, and like she does all of the things that a typical kid does, she just did them a little bit later. I want to say, I have not arrived at knowing how to engage with the conversation about disability yet and about the specifics of my family and the topic in general.

I am in a learning process and I will continue to be in that learning process for the rest of my life. Um And sometimes I will make mistakes and I will try to learn about them and be accountable and do better next time. But I will never have arrived. And I think even the way I explained it to Eliza when she was little was really from a place of my own fear about the difference in what I expected her relationship with her sister to be and what

I now thought it would be. I still had this idea that, like, oh, this is I have to explain to her the difference between Pippa and other siblings with Lucinda. With Lucinda, she's just experiencing Pippa. You know. They like steal each other's toys and push each other and give it to the food and hugs and kisses, and there's no like, let me tell you about her genetics. It's like bears and they have their relationship and it's specific.

And so I think maybe I would have been less precious and like serious about explaining it to Eliza, and I would have let her discover her more like a teachable moment conversation, she wouldn't have known what a typical sibling would have been like either, So why did I feel the need to make a distinction there? Yeah, but like you said, and you preface so well, it's like we're learning. You know you're learning, And now you get

another shot, which brings me to this essay. You pen this powerful essay in honor of Down Syndrome Awareness Month, where you talk a lot that equity is more of a useful word than equality. Can you talk about that distinction and why you thought why it's important to make that distinction. Yeah, and then we can decide how deep we're going to go with this. I think one way I like to think of it is equal is what we are inherently in terms of our value and our dignity.

We are all equal. Equity is how we get there, right, because equal does not mean identical, and that, I think is the big kind of linguistic gas light that we've been dealing with as a culture. We've been told that equal is identical, and that's not the case, both in terms of our disability, in terms of our abilities and disabilities, but also the larger conversation in terms of the resources

that we started out with. Right, what hand you were dealt with when you were born, like what you came into the yeah, and what kind of economic situation you're trying into, and what resources you had access to to get you to equals. Some people need a dollar, some people need ten. Right, As a culture and as a society, we kind of need to look at our values and

decide what this whole equality conversation is about. Are we looking for creating a society where everyone's inherent dignity is supported or are we looking for and this is another gas light, a society where people have the quote freedom to get h equity if they can, right, and the freedom essentially it's not about dignity anymore. It becomes you have the freedom to acquire and a mass wealth, and through that acquired an a mass wealth, maybe you can

create some dignity for yourself. Right, A pretty deep question about how do we want to structure the whole concept of our culture. What does each child need to unfold into the person that they are and have the potential to be calm and have the most joy and the most fulfillment and the most connection and the most flow in life. My God, your three daughters are so lucky that you're there. What organizations do you go to for

support to learn more about Down syndrome? Yeah, Um, the first one that everybody told me about when Pippa was born was Club twenty one and it's um kind of a hangout center for families. People with Down syndrome have a different learning profile, So there's like reading and writing classes that are specifically designed for a visual learning profile.

So like Pippa is four and she can already read Eliza couldn't read it four, But Pippa has a different learning profile, so she's visual and so she can't read like a whole book, but she can read simple words.

She knows all her letters, both in sign language and visually, and she loves playing with the alphabet and and so anyway, they teach classes there and they also just have like a hangout room for the one to three kids where they just and there's lots of families that are like, what's going on with you and what doctor have you talked to? And what kind of food do you give your kid um if they have delayed tooth eruption. It's community and then Global Down Syndrome Foundation, the c Center

does uh. They fundraise and then they use the money to do research on medical things and learning profile things and life supporting things that support people with Down syndrome. Because the numbers are so small now, pharmaceutical companies don't really fund the research because it doesn't have enough profit

for them. And so anyway, in terms of funding, the Global Down Syndrome Foundation funds research and they've done incredible things recently to find out that essentially Down syndrome operates like an autoimmune disorder, and so some of the cognitive delay that's associated with Down syndrome is actually a combination of hypothyroid, which can be medicated, and so when you give hyroid medication, the cognition improves and a lot of us and then also this autoimmune situation that's going on

in the viral branch of immune system that um, when the immune system is flaring, it can start to destroy neurons. Holy ship on the side, hustle, can you just do like a mommy and me for um or like I'm working on it. So Dr Amelia Shephard was pregnant on private practice and Gray's Anatomy. Two out of your three pregnancies were written into your character storyline is that correct? Two were written in yeeah, amazing. Mine was too. How did you find that out? Did you find that out

at a table read? Or did Shanna tell you beforehand? They talked to me beforehand about it. I did not know what would be happening with my Mary. Yeah, that was like pretty heinous. We did you simulate breastfeeding too? I simulated labor. The baby didn't have a brain, right the baby, Yeah, head Anna's definitely and so I never got to breastfee that baby. But it was a pretty

hard day. And it was also again like behind the scenes, Shanna Lynne super supportive and it's awesome for babies, but in front of the scenes usually something terrible, and like we're on a drama. We're on dramas. We're on Quinn's baby chained to a mattress in a base sment while I've been kidnapped in a wedding dress. They put me under aund aesthesia. Yeah, we're like a woman giving birth

in the seventies. Yeah, exactly. And I remember Carrie Washington in between like every take, she was pregnant with both of her babies on Scandal, but she Olivia Pope wasn't pregnant, but we would keep running over to her belly and be like, this is just pretend. It's just pretend. Don't freak out in there. We're okay, like everything safe, Mommy's

joking around. Well, and that was it. That was my biggest concern was I was like reading all the books that are like whatever old baby also, and I was like, this is a horror show. I asked my therapist that because I had hairy natal depression and anxiety this pregnancy, and I was not great. We're also in a pandemic. I was struggling really badly, and my daughter's like the chilliest baby and very smiley. And I asked my therapist and I was like, am I fucking at my kid

that I'm really struggle me with his pregnancy? And she was like, I think that's like in war torn countries, like if bombs were going off and you were like really really scared for your life. But I think you're okay. But I really wonder if you're an actor who's scared and putting yourself through that trauma, Like I don't even know, I don't want to, we probably don't want to know where I come from myself as I'm like, well, maybe they will be prepared if there is a war. Their

nervous system is totally tuned to handle that shit. Let's see, we've talked about that. You have a village. Bestow your knowledge on me, your further head on this journey than I am. What do you do to unwind or recharge? I mean, oh gosh, it changes meditation and prayer if that is the way you do it for me at this point, it's honestly whenever I can feel disregulation happening

in my nervous system. So at two thirty in the morning, when my sixteen month old and my four and a half year old have both woken up and come into my bed and are fighting over which one of them I will put back to sleep first, and like clawing at my body, I'm meditating. And so I'm holding literally one in one arm and one in the other arm, and I'm swaying back and forth, and I'm meditating at that time because that isn't going to keep me calm and loving them and sane. Um. Yoga is a big piece.

Although I have to go easy on myself right now, having a full austin and practice like a physical practice is not always an option when you're an exhausted mom. And so you know, if you get into like yoga philosophy, it's about again, it's about being in flow, and you can get there without doing the actual physical practice. One of the things that I'm doing to stay sane is go up to Kevin mckid's arm and I ride courses up on the farm. You know how to ride horses. No,

I'm learning. It's amazing. I literally I leave all my kids on Sunday afternoon and I drive to his farm. And there is a wonderful woman there named Emma who works and lives on the farm, and she has been teaching writing her entire life, and so she um teaches me writing. That's that's a big tool for me. What do I have to look forward to when Albie hits Aliza's eight year old age. She's so funny now, I mean, all that cleverness that he's like busting busting bulls, Yeah exactly,

it's infuriating. But oh my gosh, when he starts weaving that into like jokes and like things that he knows are going to like just make you bust like you did. I mean he's already doing that. It just gets better and more. And then also one of the things that's so beautiful about seeing her be hilarious is the delight that she's taken game from it, right, and that makes

me feel delight. And so when you have the baby who like just figured out that sneezing is hilarious and they're like seizing that'slaus and they're going too and they're delighted. Or with Pippa, you know, like whatever she loves to, like spit on the trampoline right now and then fall, and what she's delighted in delights me. And so I think at any age, whether they're twelve or sixteen or in college like figuring out what they want to study,

it's watching their delight, watching their delight. Katerina finished this sense in this moment, motherhood for me means radical curiosity.

That's so good when are you teaching this fucking mommy and me class, because that's really what keeps you in positive Like when my son hits someone in the face with a stick, it's like it's like radical curiosity about like it's amazing, Like he's never played tug a war with a stick before, and of course, like when he's someone he loses and someone else gets it, and it's like fascinating and curious to watch how he responds in

that situation. Right, First of all, he's radically curious. He's like, what's gonna happen if I hit that kid in the one hundred's Everything is further like to see what the hell happened, and what's going to happen to his face, what's going to happen with my parents? What does that mean for me and my relationship to the world, And then you get to kind of watch that whole scientific experiment unfold and like a little like that didn't go well, Oh that didn't go well, I'm leaving the party now

and I'm not allowed to have the lollype shoot. Thank you so much for being on Katie's Crib. I think you are the awesomest I really can't wait to sign up for your Mommy and Me class or read your book whenever I'm on my podcast, on your podcast, anything you want. Thank you so much for being on Kati's Crib, And thank you guys all for your support for listening. Share this episode like it, tell your friends about it, and if you have ideas for guests or topics this season,

please reach out. My email address is Katie's Crib at Shonda land dot com. By everybody. Katie's Crib is a production of Shonda land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shanda land Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. You can never know. I'm r