Bring Back Independent Play & Break Up With Burnout w/ Lizzie Assa

Welcome back to Katie's Crib. I have been trying to get this guest for a very long time because she's one of my most favorite Instagram follows. She is a wealth of knowledge. Her name is Lizzie Asa and she has an incredible Instagram account called the Workspace for Children, and it has been instrumental in helping me with Albie because she talks all about independent play and how independent play really to avoiding parent burnout. We talk about close

ended toys versus open ended toys. If you don't know what that is, that's okay, listen up, you'll figure it out. How to set up a playroom and how to get your freaking life back, because guess what with independent play. Your kid is going to play by themselves. Doesn't everybody want that? So let me tell you a little bit about Lizzie. She's a parenting strategist and a play advocate. She is the founder of the workspace for Children. Go

follow that Instagram account right now. She's an inspiration source of living a play based life with kids. Lizzie helps parents trade in exhausting days filled with packed schedules and entertaining kids for days filled with independent play. Lizzie also offers play tips and resources to parents and teachers and caregivers through her blog and social channels. And she's a mom to three kids who are eight, eleven, and fourteen. I am so psyched to have you here. Welcome to

Katie's crib Lizzie. Okay, we're all sinked up and you're not going to hear them right Good morning, everybody. Welcome to Katie's crib with Lizzie. I mean, as you can hear from my microphone. It's really early in l a and my son is not yet off to preschool, so good bye. Rest assured. This is happening all over the world right now, and everyone's houses. I mean, it's crazy.

So first and foremost, I want you to tell us about your children at their ages, and then also tell us a little bit about your background and why you're so knowledgeable about independent play and toddlers and siblings. Tell me it all alright, totally. So before I had kids, I taught nursery school in New York City. I went to the Bank Street School of Education, which is just the most progress a beautiful place to learn about becoming

a teacher and an educator. And while I was there, I did my internship at the best little school in downtown Manhattan. And it was really there where I formed this love and appreciation for letting kids play and just be who they are instead of structuring every last move, telling them what to think, where to do it, and you know, all the things. And so then I had my own kids. I have three kids. So my oldest, Nate is fourteen, and he just started high school this week.

Yeah that's insane. And Ruby is eleven and Sloan is eight. And Ruby just went to sleep away camp this summer on like a real camping trip, like in the woods for two weeks. She did. Not only are you so well studied and practiced in the toddler world, which is

one of the world I'm currently in. But because your children are older, I'm able to see all the work that I'm doing sort of payoff through you, because it really looks like and we all know Instagram is truth, it's not, but it looks like your children are very independent. They are and very self assured in their decisions and their choices, and they're respectful of their own wants and needs, but also your own wants and needs. And it's really

cool that you're so far ahead of me. I have a four year almost four year old and a ten month old, and my god, like, parenting in the way that you are speaking about and practiced when you were a teacher is so hard. Like yesterday I was at his nursery school and we've been dealing a lot with hitting and things like that, and I was like, oh, I get it. Like in the fifties whatever, when someone would just be like, oh, no, I'm just locking you in your room or whatever it was, I'm like, that's

the easier option. This is hard, like like like working through it, and what are you really trying to tell me? Are you frustrated? I think you maybe? Are you hung? You know you didn't have a nap whatever it is. But it's like, that's exhausting. It's so exhausting. But like you said, it's front loading and it will pay you back so much as they grow you can't even imagine.

And that doesn't mean they stopped doing the middle school version of hitting or whatever it is, but it does mean that those conversations are so much faster, easier, and you can get right to the point because they're already speaking out language. Ah, that's such a relief. Tell us about Workspace for Children. What is it and how did

you start it? So? Now, the Workspace for Children is an online platform and Instagram where I teach parents and educators how to really embrace play to actually end parental burnout. I want people to learn that they don't have to structure every second of their today and burn themselves out. And that exactly what you were just saying, Like, if you can put in that little bit of work in the beginning, it's going to pay you back so much

in the end. The Workspace for Children, however, started when my youngest was one and I wanted to, you know, take her to like a mommy and me class. But I realized that every class I took her to, it was highly structured. There was a lot of you get what you get and you don't get upset type of language. And I really couldn't find a program for her that felt aligned with our values, and so I made one.

And so I in my basement, I set up this parenting and play studio where parents and caregivers would come and we would do open ended art and I would model the appropriate language and just kind of show people that if you honor that your child inherently knows how to play and you don't tell them what to do, they actually will figure it out. And so that's how the Workspace for Children was born. That's even that's how

I started my blog on my Instagram. Wow, those lucky mamas and caregivers that got to hang out in your basement, it was so much fun. I made some of my best friends there. Ah. I love it for all of you listening. I mean, it really just takes the pressure

off in Albi's room. The relief I feel when I just get to sit back and let him take the lead and have there be no structure or no plans and I just sit back and watch, you know, or partake if he wants me to, but I'm not on my phone or anything like that, And even just fifteen minutes is so honestly relaxing and fulfilling, and also the relief that I feel, especially as I'm getting into this four year old age where I'm getting just so many texts and emails as we're opening up from the pandemic

of like, well does he want to do soccer? Well? Does he want to do karate? Well? Does he want to do this? Isn't to that? And I'm like, you know, honestly, we'll do one thing a week, but it's big, and he's exhausted that he's even nursery school. These are the years we get to be home and he has a ten month old baby sister that we're all getting to know, and I'm just trying to take the pressure off myself of like, I don't need to spend my days in l a traffic, like driving a four year old to

like a shipload of places. That's right, but most people think that being a good parent means signing them up for like every enrichment and every last thing. But what's happening is, and there are so many studies even now if you speak to like college professors and high school teachers where kids come in and if you're not telling them what to do and what instruments to hold and where to press, they have this like blank look on their face. They don't know how to take the first step.

Since they were four years old, people were saying, on Monday we do soccer and karate and on Tuesday we have voice and I'm you know, and it's like, when are they ever home? And then they're sitting in the back of the car and they're winding and their board and and you're like crazy burned out. So you toss them a tablet or your phone because you need a second, as you should be the second to think. So you

can back all that up to those early years. So tell me what exactly for those listen, what is independent play? Why is it important? So? Independent play is when your child is playing by themselves, directing their own play. They decided what to play and how to play it. Independent plays when your child is their most authentic self. Independent play doesn't mean sitting and playing quietly with blocks or dolls.

I think there's a big thing there that people see on Instagram or in the nursery school classroom that like their child's not playing independently if they're not quietly you know, building a black building or drawing a pretty picture. Independent play can also be in like bouncing a ball in the backyard against the garage and getting in a rhythm

with yourself. Independent play is just flow with yourself. Not only is independent play so important for your child for them to learn who they are, what their interests are, what their interests are, not what you're what you think their interests are supposed to be. It's also so important for the family system. When you can set up the habit of independent play, then that means caregiver parent gets time back for themselves to take care of their own needs.

And then that's when it becomes the difference of being half in all the time or all in for a short time. All in for a short time is a billion times more valuable than half in all the time. How do we teach kids independent play? You can start small, right, You can start so small, and you can start anywhere you are. You can have a kid who watches TV all day every day and still start where you are. Anyone can do this anywhere. And the trick really here

is is learning about who your kid is. Literally when you're in the car with them and they're staring out the window and they get excited out something, that's a clue. The kid who loves trucks and every time they see a truck drive by, they clap and get too excited, that's a clue. Literally, watch your child for a few minutes, even if you're not with them, sit down and think about your kid, Like set a timer for five minutes, and just think about who your kid really is, the good,

the bad, all of it. What lights them up. When you can hone in on one or two of those things. You can set up the most simple environment, and I'm not talking about a fancy playroom. I'm talking about any little blanket on the floor in any part of your home, with just some things that reflect their interests. That's when

you're going to start to see natural, independent play. And it's so simple that I think people miss that step and they start to think independent play means you buy all the wooden toys and you set up these fancy crafts, and then their kids don't play with it, and then you're annoyed and then they're like confused, like what did they do? And then they just want to watch TV because TV is so much easier on everyone, you know,

and then that cycle continues. So if you can just really find the little things that light your kids up, and it can even be like just in that week. It doesn't have to be some grand thing that you're like, my kid loves, you know, whatever it is. I mean, literally, what did they talk NonStop about this week? It could be pop patrol and and that just means grab a handful of those pop patrol choice, put him down on a blanket, put a few magnetic tiles next to it.

That's when you're going to spark kindly. How we started was like the tip I would lie like I would just as soon as I would set him up with something, I would just be like, oh, I have to go to the bathroom, and I would just go to the bathroom, you know, for five minutes and ten minutes than fifteen minutes. I mean. The great news about kids, they kind of have no concept of time, you know, like it is

what you say it is. There's something actually really amazing that you do there that's making a kind of play happen, and that is that you're setting a limit. So for you you're comfortable setting a limit saying I'm going to the bathroom because you feel comfortable saying I have to go to the bathroom, and like if they're like, now, you know you can, but I'm going to the bathroom because like humans go to the bathroom. When people can set a limit that they can stand by, then your

kid can stand by it. And when you can add those limits to play and quiet time, it's such a game changer. What would you say if you weren't going to use the party? So I teach a whole course on how to teach your child and your whole family to get in this rhythm of independent play, even with really little kids, like kids that are too and are dropping the nap. I would say, like, you know, something that older children do is called quiet time, and it's a time when you get to play with your things

without anyone interrupting you. You don't have to share with your sister, you don't have to listen to my ideas. Quiet time means like this is for you. And then you're also going to say, like, this is also my quiet time. You know, you really like build that up as like a grown up important thing, because it is. It is and then when you can pair that with setting limits around that right, and then the course we talk about like why do you even want quiet time?

Like why not just be like fine, like during quiet time you can watch screens because no judgment. For some people, that's what they do and that works, and that's totally fine. If you are someone though, who wants your child to

play independently during quiet time. I help people look all the way into the future, what kind of personality traits do you want to help your child develop when they are in middle school or in high school, because those are things that are going to learn during independent play. And so when you can remember like the reasons why you really want your child to have these play skills. In my course, I have a whole workbook where we like work through that so that you can get super

clear on why you're doing it. The truth of the matter is you can have any system, any bride, any anything. Your child is going to push back on you. They're supposed to. And we're so tired that like we want to just be like, oh, forget it, fine, don't do it. But if you have that like clear list of like nope, I'm setting this limit, like you know, same thing. A lot of parents feel guilty saying, you know, go play. I'm doing my thing, you do yours, And I totally

get that. But when you look at it out through this other lens of that, you're like doing them such an amazing service by setting these limits and boundaries around this time where they get to figure out their true authentic self. Oh, this is such a relief. And guys like, yeah, let's change the perspective when they used to say, go outside and play. I don't want to see you till dinner. I mean, we're doing it in a little bit of a different way, but it's the same thing, is that

you're doing a good thing. You are not expected as a parent to play with your child all day long and survive. What a nightmare. And if you do that, it's a disaster. I don't play with my kids. They never have. I don't. I'm a play expert, and I don't play with my kids. Guys, you heard it here first. I have goose bumps like sponges sponges at a bucket of water, have fun like you know, like it's oh, yeah, there's ranges if you know of what things cost and all of that, But you set your kid up and

then you go away. Well, I mean, and that's part of like having successful independent play is like using that environment to set the limits for you or to spark ideas for you, so that you're not part of that and they come to it on their own terms. We as adults, we'll see like a project on Pinterest, say with soaphie water and a bucket, but like we'll start getting all fancy and adding food, coloring and slime and like this, and like a who has time for that?

Because I don't be Then your kid comes to it and they're like and then you're annoyed, and then you're forcing them to do it, and then you're not doing it again. The other green thing about independent play is that now we're a little bit in a rhythm where he kind of does it at the same times every day, and now it's become almost like a self regulation for both of you, for both of us, even for example us.

You know, my schedules a little bit different today because we're doing this call, like I said, early, so it kind of interrupted. He likes to do a good twenty thirty minutes of independently before he goes to school, Like he wakes up, has breakfast, plays around with me and his sister, and then he likes to really have some alone time with with with his things before he goes to school. I almost feel like it's his body knowing that he's about to go to school and interact and

it's really intense. And then he does it when he gets home from school and he's just starting to drop his nap, which is crazy. I know people are like, he still naps, and I guess he does. Oh my god. But now we're doing this quiet time where for the first time over this weekend, I said, Okay, if you don't want to sleep, you're in your room. Your door is shown. Is that rhythm of nap time? Did you

do quiet time? Oh yeah, we still do quiet time and middle school, I literally nap every Saturday and Sunday. I'm going to too. It is non negoci all like quiet time happens and I nap and my husband like watches football or whatever. And that is like hard line. You said you don't play with your kids, But I love this that you advised on the Balanced Parent podcast that a parent should play with their children in a

way that is appealing to them. Yeah, it's cool to be the caregiver where this is the type of play I like, right, I mean, that's sort of so many purposes too. For me, I happen to be very artsy. I love art. I love to just like you know, rub a marker around on the paper, and to me like that is when I'm the most present and like listening to my kids the most. So a lot of times. You know, if you follow Instagram, you'll see after school I usually set up like a snack and really simple

art on the table. That's how I can say to my kids, like, hey, I was thinking about you and we're gone. I'm here to connect if you want to. Also, this took me five minutes, so like if you don't or you're like, hey, I'm going to hang with my buddies or whatever, that's great too. I literally don't care, and I'll probably live it there for the whole weekend anyway. But it's just a way for me to connect with them. Whereas like for my husband, he loves building with blocks,

so he'll hang out on the playroom floor. Was slowan and like listen to her ideas and help her create a structure for him. That's really satisfying. Neither of us sit there and play Unicorn because like that's what no, And it's like not, I don't know. I just I don't think that teaches my kids how to like be a good friend or a good human. You know, they could do that. That's amazing for them to do that with themselves, or to find a friend who loves to

do that. For me to authentically sit there scroll my phone with one hand and like half make a Barbie move. That's not actually connecting with my kid and it's not going to solve any issues. Yeah, I found out this weekend. Like I've been doing a lot of weekends so because my husband started this pretzel business and so he's gone a lot. So I'm just like I'm the same. I

fucking hate playing. But Albie and I have really taken to Vera goes down at nine and then he and I have time together before hopefully by eleven ish when she wakes up. I like to at least have some sort of playdate where we go to a friend's house

outside or they come over to our house outside. In that time, he and I have started just baking together because I'm like, this is killing two birds with one stone, where he's playing with the measuring cups in the water, and he loves to be in the sink and cleaning all the dishes and stuff. But also it makes me feel good because I love being a host or going to someone's house and bringing something because I feel like it's a nice thing to do, and you're passing on

like your values in a way that feels good to him. Oh, I did something, I'm saying, but you did something that felt like good to you. Yes, it's great to me. I felt right. If you go back and break this down, right, it's like developmentally appropriate for him because he's splashing and pouring and filling, right, and he's four years old and

that's what kids love to do. He's also doing like an assigned task, that is, he's capable of doing like It probably wouldn't be fun for him if you were like, hey, sound out these words in the cookbook. You know that he would be like, no, like, and then you would get annoyed, and then he would get and like the fun would be over. But you're doing something that feels good to you, that passes on family values and is developmentally appropriate for him. Tell us what a closed end

of toys versus an open end. So a closed ended toy would be a toy that does one thing, like there's one outcome to it, and the toy doesn't most of the playing for them, so like they pressed the button, the toy makes the thing spin around and the noise goes off. A closed end of toy would be like something that can only be one thing. So if it's like the pop Patrol pop tower, like that can really kind of only be the po patrol pop tower. That's not going to suddenly be volcano or a you know,

it's just not. And then an open ended toy would be something that your child can use a million different ways. They have to put their own self, their own interests, their own stage of development. They have to work to make it become something, and they kind of have to

learn how to do that. There's a lot of people who spent a lot of money on expensive wooden, open ended toys because Instagram told them to or interest told them to, and their kids are like, I don't know what to do with this, or the parents can look at and be like what are they supposed to do

with this? That takes work, that takes development. But that's a way of thinking I had a real momentum actually in all honesty following you on Instagram, where I felt, I mean, this all happens to all moms, but I felt like like I really made a massive mistake. During the pandemic, I was pregnant and pediatrician was very We weren't sending out me to school or pladates or everything because we were like really scared about COVID and the fact that I was pregetting things and it happened to

run into also Hanukkah, Christmas and his birthday. The amount of crap, close ended toys that showed up in my house was astronomical and really overwhelming for me. I don't like having a lot of things as a person to like, I just get really overwhelmed easily. I don't like a ton of toys, so that was hard for me. Also, I sort of was so tired with the newborn. I was like, I don't care, like his closet is bursting

at the seems with plastic paw patrol things. My daughter is now ten months old, and I just did like while he was at school, I've done massive cleanouts and I have to say I feel so much better, like it's not that I got rid of them all. I have them. And I also had to really really struggle with him about what are the things you're giving away two people? What are the things you're handing down to your baby sister to make him feel better. I'm like,

because we're making room. You know your birthday is coming up, and you're going to get to choose a few new things that you will play with. But I felt like a bad mom because of all the clothes ended toys I had. I don't think there's anything wrong with having some commercial, closed ended toys. I really don't. When Sloan, my youngest, was little, she was obsessed with Pot Patrol and I had two older kids, and so I literally bought the knockoff pot Patrol like mini figures and I

would put them. I kept one in a pouch in my car, one in the diaper bag, and whenever I had to like take Nate to soccer or take rebeat a softball or whatever, and Sloan was like, I would pull out those little pot patrols, but instead of having those with the pop tower and with the truck that makes all the noises, I would give for those little pot patrols something she loves and thinks about, and the lights her up with maybe like a few blocks and

you know, something that she can build, because now suddenly the pups can't aren't just going back and florth in the Pup tower like they did in the show. You know, they're going in this block building that she made and then suddenly she had an idea and it turns into a unicorn fairy land or whatever that she wouldn't have had that opportunity with just the pop tower, right, Okay, so we're not against close ended toys. It's not reality.

And also because I was thinking, I was like, my god, like if I we're gonna get rid of close ended toys entirely. It really links back to television, to be honest. For in my household, it's like he's seeing that ship and he's seeing it and that's what his friends are playing. There's nothing wrong with it. I feel like the only time it becomes an issue is like when you have you know, say like the Daniel Tiger figures plus the clubhouse plus the other thing and the other thing and

the other thing. Then they're only going to play that over and over and never taking the lead in their own play they're not using their own imagination, and they're also and they get sick of it because you can only do one thing with it. Whereas when you take an open ended toy like those wooden rainbows that are like so trendy, right, those are awesome because they make

a great baby gift. They look great on the shelf, right, But then like you have a little sitting up baby who can bang them together because that's where they are in their development. And as they get a little older, they're going to use them again and they're gonna start to like stack them into each other and that. And now Nate who's fourteen, could do these like crazy balancing tricks with them with like these giant wooden marbles that like I'm like, you're fourteen, I can't believe you're still

like attracted to this thing. But it's like, you know, he has an idea and he's like, oh, we could make this. So you talked on a Simple Families podcast, like we're saying that it's okay to buy close ended toys. You yourself have bought them from time to time, but you wouldn't have them in play rooms. So how do you transition your child back to enjoying playing with mostly open ended toys. Let's say that a people someone listing like I was, is right up the close ended toys

ship show. How do we get them out? Okay, so the first thing is like, don't feel like you have to attack your whole playroom and start throwing everything out. It's so overwhelming and you're just not gonna do it. Take something that's sort of open ended, like you know, like those Melissa and Doug creative blocks that like someone gave you at some birthday party, because like everyone gives

that is like a first birthday gift. Right, Dig that out of like the hole in the back of your playroom, and you know, put it on your coffee table in your living room, like set it up in a few little stacks, and honestly, get whatever they like. Are they into dinosaurs? Are they into whatever show they're into? And you have the closes ended toys, take that out too, and grab a few of them and just like sprinkle

them around that black building and leave it there. Don't be like, look, look are you going to use this? Put it in an unexpected place, put it on your bathroom floor. Then you can take a shower. This is great. I'm already like my brain is spinning because he just left for preschool, and I'm like, okay, what could I just like I have that Melissa and Dug shit in the back. I should just put that out on our living room floor. Sloan was so needy she never just

let me take a shower. I took everything out of my bathroom cabinet thing like everything and instead inside there and literally put like a few little blocks, a few little magnetic tiles. And whenever she wined at me and I wanted to take a shower, would just open the cabinet in my bathroom and like I took a shower, blow out my hair, like, do all the things. Because it wasn't like me being like go to the playroom, go make some you know. It's just like I was like,

all right, well I'm showering. You can hang out and cry and wind and do the things, or like if you open that you can also play. So we're coming up on the fourth birthday and because I just I'm

feeling way better about his toy consumption right now. Um, I just feel better that it's a really healthy for me mix of open ended toys and clothes ended toys, and I'm just really aware and like watching how he plays, and for me, it's a big value that he is taking the clothes ended toys and and coming up with stuff on his own. So what I did was I actually sent a text to those listening whatever if you want to, I'm just if this is helpful to anyone,

it was super helpful to me. I have a group of people that all of our children were born in the same few weeks, and so the birthday gifts become insane. And I texted all of them and I said, please make a donation or nothing at all. Thank you so much, but we're at capacity and I'm not interested. And then his grandparents who really want to buy him a gift, and his aunt nuncles who really want to buy him

a gift. I actually, maybe this is still controlling. I made a list on unshared note and I said, please, I just want to let you know we just did a big clean out of his toys and I'm really carefully curating this year what he's getting for his birthday that rolls into Hanukkah, that rolls into Christmas. And this is the list, completely affordable and inexpensive, and I feel really proud of myself and you can reframe your thinking. Are you being controlling or are you setting a boundary?

You know, like he's really just gotten into costume play, Like really, I've noticed in another kid's house and we don't have any of that stuff. I know costumes can be really close ended, you know, a scarf versus a outfit. But like he loves the astronaut thing. He pretends to be an astronaut. I was like, great, that's from Grandma.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that. And also like if you know that he loves astronaut things, have someone or you could do this for his birthday, like literally get a big shoe box, caught up some tinfoil, like some like you know, like some little boxes, or give him some like wooden play people with tinfoil and let him like turn that into something. That's great. Talk

to me about TV watching totally. So I love TV like myself personally, like I love t V um and my kids like to be and I don't think it's the enemy. I'm just really clear with boundaries. So now that they are fourteen eight, were like the big kids are allowed to have like their you know, screen time or whatever at night on the weekends, and Sloan gets hers in the morning on the weekends, and she is like,

why do they get it at night? And I'm like, they get it at night because when they're done, they're not asking me to tuck them in. You are when you feel comfortable being old enough, like having yours at night and then going to bed, then that's fine. But otherwise she also wakes up early early, So you know, we make screen time work for us. It's just the differences,

Like it's not a fallback. So my kids know when screen time is allowed, what they're allowed to like watch and not watch, which is also changing now that Nates in high school, Like I'm learning a lot about like how to let go of that um. But our boundaries again are just like really clear around. Tablets are kept up high in the cabinet in our kitchen. They always have been their mine and Dave's. They're not the kids. Like I heard Slow the other day be like, where's

my iPad? And I was like, oh, well, you don't have an iPad. Actually it's mine, and I let you use it. Remember when she rolled her eyes. But I think it's a pretty clear distinction, like it's mine, it's my rules, and that's sort of how we've always gone and I've always done it for me. You mentioned an Instagram post to use the always sometimes method when it comes to your kids watching TV. Can you tell us

a little bit about that. That totally And it's so funny now because my big kids like fully roll their eyes at this, um But I tell my kids, you know, first slow, you always get to watch TV on Saturday and Sunday mornings. You can count on that. Sometimes on Thursday, I'm freaking tired and and I don't, you know, you get to watch a show like you know sometimes but that's up to me. But the weekends you will always

get it. It's not conditional. I don't take it away from her, you know, for whatever reason, or like I really try not to. Then sometimes they get extra you know, you always get to watch on the weekends. Sometimes we go in a really long car ride and you get to and I mean even just recently, we were with the kids in the car. We're going on a short trip from Massachusetts to Maine. And the short trips we don't tend to like use devices in the car we

just don't know judgment for people who do it. Whatever. It was a really quick drive and so the kids didn't even expect to have devices. But then Dave and I decided we wanted to listen to a true crime podcast and we want to listen to it. So you're like, guys, it's sometimes that's so funny, and they were on site

they were like, yeah, this is such a win. I think what also made me feel good and change my perspective because my son is like U. I recently just changed to him only being allowed to watch on weekends and that's like our set rule, and my gosh, it's it's been so much better. I don't know why, but

it does. It changes like it's been so much better because to be honest, sometimes the TV watching isn't worth it for me because the shut off and the boundary if he's is so upsetting to him that it's like, well, this was a fucking nightmare. And so the fact that on the weekdays that's just not an option and on Saturdays he's allowed to watch TV UM in the later

afternoon and saying with Sundays like, that's it same. We've also set the boundary that Monday through Friday he has to get dressed for school, and Saturday and Sunday he can wear pajamas all day. I don't care. That's my thing. But that's the thing. You're apparent you're allowed to have your thing. Like that's my thing? Yeah, if okay? And always sometimes context like you always gonna get TV on the weekend and sometimes you might get it on a

Thursday or something if mommy needs it. What happens if there's some acting out behavior? Um? Do you ever take away the always weekend TV? Is that ever on the table? I try really hard not to. I'm not gonna sit here and say I've never lost my temper and done it, because hi, I have, UM, but no, they're not related. I really try to use like consequences that are related. I want them to trust that always. That's you know,

it's unconditional. Um. And Also, I mean I just feel like if they say they did something like kick down the block tower and I took away TV, like that doesn't really add up from that related, right. I might say, Hey, you know what, I'm gonna take away these blocks right now, and I'm gonna put out only maybe ten of them instead of forty and as you learn how to like work more safely with blocks and I can help you with that, we can add them back it so you

know something like that? Okay, what if? Oh? I was gonna say. The thing that changed my perspective so much about TV is the reason why I was like, why is my son so obsessed with television? Is something wrong with him? Something's wrong, Something's wrong. Still sitting in my therapist's office last Friday, being like, why do I default? Something wrong with her when like I teach other people how to not default too? Is something wrong with her?

That's horrible. But what made me feel better about it is TV for our toddlers is a break for their brain. And that's what I learned from you doing independent play, go to school, all these things using their brain this way. It's hard, it's exhausting. It's hard work for them, as hard work as us adults are doing to work and do our jobs and multitask a million things. Is as hard as it is for Albie's brain to learn all day and negotiate all day and socialize and play with

toys like that's their work. So when he gets to also veg out in front of the television. It's like vegging out. It's like the same ship we went, right. I love vegging out so totally. But the thing about independent play that's so cool is that the more they work in the beginning and like practice, then it becomes like this major like decompression. And for parents it's so cool because like, you know, you want to be like your kid after school, who'd you play with? What you do?

Who got in trouble? Like all the things, which is obviously can't do and they're not going to tell you whatever. But if you set up like a dollhouse and two little people and stuff, you better believe they're going to go in there and act out every single experience. And it's going to be from their perspective, right, it's not going to be like what really happened? But like I can just spy on the play room and be like, oh, you know all those things, because that is when they're

really processing their day out loud. How do you handle I don't I mean badhavior. My son's really really um physical and so we run into a lot of hitting, punching, tickling her sister in the eyeball. I try really hard to say I'm only saying this once, especially if something's crossing the line with safety. And I really say that for myself because I'm so mushy gushy lovey that it's

really hard for me to stick to something. So I say that to myself, to stick to something, and then I'll take away whatever is currently being used as a weapon. I would too, I mean safety first, right, but like also like go back to like why you're doing it, Like when you want to get mushy gushy or like you feel bad, then be like, actually, no, why do

I feel bad? Like he's poking his sister in the eye with this block, Like it's okay for me to say, like stop, I won't let you hurt her the same way I'm going to always keep you safe and I'm not gonna let anyone hurt you. I'm not gonna let anyone hurt her. So I'm going to take that. It's not up to you. I mean that's a big one that I say, Like I know you wish like you could be in charge of that, but I am the grown up in charge. And so then what do you do if he says no, I'm the grown up. That's

what my son said. I would say, you really wish you could be in charge. I know it feels so good. Like you can be in charge of when you go to the potty, you can be in charge of if you have this or this for breakfast, But when it comes to keeping you and your sister safe, I am actually in charge. Hell yeah, oh I can't wait right, And you prove that all day every day. You prove that in like the soft moments, in the good moments,

and in the hard moments. It's the same thing as like when they're having like a tant room and like completely falling apart and you're still saying like I'm here for you, like I'm not gonna let you kick down. You know this thing that could hurt someone, but I am here for you. That's the same thing. Like that's also you showing them, showing him that like you're in charge. Talk to me about your dining room being the playroom.

Why did you decide this? Yes, okay, so a million and a half years ago when we moved to Maplewood, we had like an actual formal dining room because we thought that's like what grown ups do. And in the basement we put all the toys. But then I realized that like, no one goes in the basement, let alone, my kids let alone unless I go with them, and like that wasn't helpful. I had a two year old in a newborn. I wasn't going to basement and you

want to drink wine upstairs with your friends. Yeah, So little by little I started to like first like the you know, the train table came up, and my husband came home and he was like, what's going on over here? And I was like, I could do whatever I want, Like if I'm in the same room as Nate, but the train tables here, I can like wash the bottles or like talk on the phone. He just wants to

be in my vision. Long story short, kids want to be where we are, right And so we got rid of the designing room stuff because we're not formal people. We do not host formal things, like we have little kids. So if anyone comes over for dinner with their kids, were in the kitchen anyway, so we act to the dining room, and our playroom was born. And our playroom is right off of our kitchen. And so like my kids can sort of see me if they needs to

see me, I can see them. I can you know, we can sort of talk, but I can do my thing and they can do theirs. Ah, this sounds incredible. And it's been years now that you've had this. I mean, it's in so many years. And like I said, like, my oldest is fourteen, my middle is in middle school.

And we got home from the beach the summer and I plucked down in the playroom and I was like, I feel like we might need to like turn the playroom and does something else right, like you guys are gonna find of old like you know, And all three of them were like no, really, So it's like, wow, Okay, is that where they do their homework? Or is homework in bedroom? It's right off it's right off our kitchen. My oldest does his homework in his room. I'm not

sure my middle really does her homework. It's in the kitchen. Okay. Tell me about like your kids all get along. It seems like it how the fund you do that. I don't show them fighting on Instagram because that would be hard for you. And yes, yeah, but I'm I really think it is from like having really clear and firm boundaries. I'm just getting into this now where my daughter just started crawling. So here we go, like she's going to

take his ship. He's already pushing her. You know, I'm helping him learn a lot about Oh if you know, let's pick the things that's that sister is not going to play with today. Let's pick the things that you would be okay with her sharing. If you're she's coming close to something that you don't want to, you have

to tell me, right, okay. So one another great way to use quiet time is like you can have fly time in your room and you can bring you know, whatever toys you don't want your sister to have, and like use them in your room for this whole time. You do not have to share them, because honestly, sharing is really hard, and it's really hard when it's your sibling, and it's really hard when it's all the time and

they meet their life and their things in their space protected. Um. But so I feel like one that was like it was really protecting the things I don't make them share all the time. I learned this as a classroom nursery school teacher that like it's okay to say, like I'm still using that we're finished. Like I think we think our kids are like bad if they're not like I want that here, you know, No, you teach them how to advocate for themselves so that they can do it themselves.

My kids do fight, um for sure, but they also love each other really hard. I think it also it was because I didn't sign them up for a million things when they were small. They are and we're each other's playmates, so you know, after school or after nursery school or whatever it was, and quiet time like they

played together. Also, I don't want to spend all that money, like I really, like, I'm so stupid, Like he's just I'm spending two whatever soccer and he doesn't even really like it or like know what the fun it is, to be honest, it's like why does he have to do it? I mean I I just like even with that, like I did that stuff with He wasn't the first I signed him up for the two year old soccer and the three year old soccer and four year old

soccer like every weekend. It was so annoying, And I remember in kindergarten looking at him being like, um, if you really like soccer and you want to practice it and get good at it, like I'm all in. But if you're not that into it, like could we not? He's like, this is not fun for anyone, And he was so relieved. I mean he was like, I ate it. How great? How great? Quickly? Boredom? Yeah, is it the best? Like boredom, you are not sailing as a parent when

your child is like on board. No, no, In fact, you're like giving them the gift that it is. Listen, when your kid comes to you and tells you that they're bored, it is ingrained in you to be like, oh my god, I should have signed them up for all the things were like I bought our on toys or like, oh my god, I'm the worst parent. I'm sitting here scrolling my phone and my kid is bored. Boredom is the entry point to how anything is created. And I know that sounds so cliche, but it's true.

And let me tell you, like my eight year old still literally still says it's I'm board. The other day, my husband and I were laughing story because I looked and have you met me? Like just like really, and she was like whatever, and she went off and like did her thing. It's about as a parent tolerating that uncomfortable nous for them, and it's like knowing for you, Like what is it triggering you when they say you're bored?

Figure that out, move past it and let them be bored, because I mean, my kids don't come to me on the weekend of day. What are we doing? What are we doing? I'm like, it's Saturday, and I was gonna like do this thing on my email. I wanted to like sitting backyard for a little while, like what are you doing? It's not my job to entertain you? Know? This is so helpful. Okay, as we wrap up any last tips on helping moms encourage and set up independent play.

Make it so simple and easy the on yourself. The easier it is for you, the more you're gonna do it, and then that's how they're going to develop the skills. If you start doing these like complicated play prompts and your kid loves them, that's what they're going to require, right, So like, keep it super simple. I have a little I have a downloadable it's called the play Plan, and it's shows you, like five materials how to use the

twenty five different ways. Because the idea is like less is more, and the less you do, the more they'll do and that's what you want, but you really want to make it. If you hate mass, do not set up messy projects because then you're not going to want to do that all the time. Yeah, Like I love cleaning, so like the fact that my son will stand at the sink and clean dishes and like loves loading the dishwasher. I'm like, this is like or he loves like watering plants,

and that's the thing on my list. Like I've had to help him like figure out how to not over water. But like literally I'm just using my son to check off my lift. But but the thing is, that's so good for him. I taught Nate how to make coffee, and the curate when he that says every day he

makes my coffee, it's the best. But it gives them such a good sense of purpose and instead of them feeling like they're in a in the way or needing to be entertained or any of those things, giving them real, actual jobs that help the family unit give them a sense of purpose, and that in itself is it changes everything about them. It changes their behavior, it changes how they see themselves, It changes their ability to take risks later in life because they feel good at something. Guys,

it can be easier than what we're doing. Is there any other things you want to mention talk about anything? The biggest thing I want to hit on is saying that, like, when you take care of yourself, you can take care of your kids so much better. And if I could change anything for moms, especially post well is it post pandemic moms now in life? Um? Is that like it's okay for your kid to be upset or sad or

whatever it is. While you're taking care of yourself. You're modeling for them that you have your own needs and you're also going to become like a better human being, which in turn a better parent. But like, I just feel like the more you can do your own thing,

it is so good for your kids. Like just really quickly, Like but when I'm with with your son this morning, like as that happened, all I could think was, Wow, she just showed him that like a she can set a limit and stick to it, be that she has her own stuff that doesn't revolve around him like kids later in life, like when they think their parents life

revolves around them, that's not good. Like, but you also showed him that, like you were okay with him being upset, and you were also okay with him like going off to he's gonna You have so much faith in him right that, like he can be upset, he cannot like your choices, but they still are what they are and

he's still him and he's still okay. Lizzie, You've made me feel great today and I have learned endless amounts from you on Instagram, like endless amounts of ideas, and you make it so easy and accessible for all of us to just like go on your Amazon thing and go on your and like you're all of your different packets and things that we can sign up for. I really like you're truly one of my favorite follows and I really appreciate you coming on Katie's Crib. Thanks for

having men. Yeah, thank you guys so much for listening to today's episode. I hope you enjoyed. I learned a ton and I feel like way better about being a mom today, So that's a huge win. How can I help you you feel better about where you're at in your parenting life. You can always find me at Katie's Crib at shawonda Land dot com. Katie's Crib is a production of Shawonda land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio.

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