Coming to you from the Morning Star Mission sponsored studio. This is Carl and crew on Moody Radio with me.
This morning, doctor Chris Fabry. How are you doing, doc?
You gave me a PhD.
Yeah. Oh, I love conferring things. I get up early.
On Monday, I get a PhD.
I like what are you doing up so early? I couldn't.
Sleep last night because I'm so excited about what's going on this.
Week. We're here in the grapevine, and I'm not talking the one that goes from Central Valley over into the Los Angeles Bowl. We're hearing grapevine, Texas, and we're broadcasting live this week. From here. We're going to be just loaded up with guests the majority of this week. This morning we've got a great start. We just get to
be with you boom crew. And we're thrilled about it. Chris, as you think about listeners, what are the greatest observations you've made in your how many years of broadcasting, by the way?
You know, I was thinking about it because I when I checked in yesterday, Kerby Anderson was right behind me. I met Kerby Anderson 40 years ago, almost.
Was Kerby in a Was he standing upright?
He was? Yeah. He and his wife were there. Probe ministries took over for Marlin Maddox with with his program point of view. And you know, there's there's a lot in in religious broadcasting quote unquote. There's a lot of competition. You know, we're going for this group or we're going to do this. And and what I saw in that line with Kirby was we were all in this together. We're all doing the same thing. Those whose hearts are,
are pointed toward Christ. Yeah. So I think one of the things that that I've learned through those years is get your heart tuned to him. Yeah. And then do what he asked you to do and let everything go.
Yeah. No, I believe that 100%. You know, it's interesting here we when we think about broadcasting and there's going to be a slew of people here. Boone crew. You kind of got to get a feel for this here. We're in this, uh, what would you call this little suite? And there's all kinds of chairs and In tabletop setup. And there's going to be folks in here this morning, many of whom are listening to Moody Radio, some doing
a deeper dive on what are you doing? Do we want to pick up what you're doing and put it on our network or on our station? So there's syndicators, small and large, and the opportunity is huge. How important is it for a clarion gospel? Are you what? Are you feeling different. Ah, yeah. This is what I want to know from you. What? Are you feeling different now than you were, say, 20 years ago in radio?
Okay, I'll go even further back than that to.
Trying to be. Yeah, I'm trying to be kind.
I was just thinking last night, you know, how much striving there was for me when I was younger. And I really want to, you know, make a name and do the thing and get the numbers and get the guests and, you know, jockey for position and all that, and all of that has pretty much with maturity or with some age has gone away. And it's like, talk
to the people who are struggling. And I'll say that to those who are listening right now who are part of the boom crew, you be praying for the people who walk in here, who have stations, who say, you know, we need something going on in the morning, and maybe Carl and crew. Maybe that would be something you'd be praying about. That. Or for those who are thinking about
Chris Fabry live or Janet Parshall or whatever. Yeah. Um, you know, be praying that there would be people not so that we could build our kingdom, but so that God could use us and steward well what he's given to us. So I want to go away from the striving. Yeah. And and really rest and wait patiently on what he's doing.
Yeah. It's a it's an interesting thing. I wish it hadn't taken me as many years as it has, because I'm. By God's grace and by his mercy, I'm really at a good place in life. And that is my chief aim is to help people really take their next step with Jesus when they're.
I think listeners sense that, too. I think they sense because you look, let's be honest. You've got some intensity to you, Carl. You know, I'm a pretty chill.
I'm a pretty chill guy.
To be honest. You got some intensity to you, but it's focused on what he's doing in you and through you then. And that's what people pick up and what they're responding to.
Well, coming up here in a moment, we're going to ask you a question, and I want you to text it right now. Why do you come here to this show? Why are you here? That's that. Why are you here? We're going to get some response from you. We got somebody in the house.
Good morning.
We got Young Thunder in the house. Hey, hey. We got Ali holding down the fort back. Back yonder.
Ali?
Is she in studio there?
She's there. That's okay. We'll get her in a minute.
Yeah, we'll get her in a minute. But we are overjoyed that we're here in Texas. And they've got big Ole burgers. You can't get a burger. That's not a double patty here, I'll tell you. Coming up here in a moment, we're going to break it down and we're going to take texts from you right now. Young Thunder, how did they do that?
My man, just text us at 800 555 78, 98. Text US 800 555 7898.
Why are you here? What are you here for? I want to hear about it right now. What's what in the world? What? What causes you to tune in here? And us knowing that we'll even do a better job?
He's a sports fanatic with a stent for anything you can think of. Young Thunder is in the crew. It's Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
We're getting some good responses here, aren't we? Of what in the world people come here for?
I really like this question because I'm loving seeing so much of your response. You want to be pushed. You want to be encouraged. Encouragement in your faith 9299 let's see to listen and learn more about Jesus. Simple but well put. Encouragement and inspiration. 3647 47 says 0904 Carl, what do you think about this one? To help keep the devil away. Does listening to Christian radio help keep the devil away?
Yeah. If you can build a biblical case with music, when you see David ministering to Saul with a harp and the demonic spirits flee. So, yeah, you can build a case for that. My wife's a big believer in that, right? Babe, I'm speaking to her back in Chicago right now, and she can listen to me. Uh, but yeah, it can. It can do that. Before we lose. You give your word of encouragement this morning for the troops.
My word of encouragement to you is, no matter how many times you feel like you have failed as a husband, as a wife, as a father, as a mom, as a friend, as a child of God, you feel like you've failed so many times. His mercies are new every morning. Great is his faithfulness. Do not let past failures keep you from going for it with God today.
Boom boom. That's right on, because God's got the grace to do a mulligan, right, Ali?
Absolutely.
He does. Yeah. Chris Faber, you're up.
I was thinking of Don Cole being here at National Religious Broadcasters and his statement, I've just, uh, woke up thinking of this struggle is not a sign of failure. Struggle is a sign of life. So if you are struggling today, if there's something that's going on that you are trying to overcome the killing sin. ET cetera. Struggle is not a sign that God is not at work. It's a sign that he is at work. So trust in him.
You know, people ask me often, you know, is there a chance I've lost my salvation? I say the mere fact that you're questioning that tells me you haven't. Yes. And plus the acknowledgement of that is. My goodness. By the way, the only unpardonable sin is to deny the deity of Jesus Christ. That's the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit. Now, don't be worried about that, people. Don't. Don't do that, super guy. What's your word of encouragement today?
My encouragement is that you're waking up and whatever you may be facing today could be work related, health related. You may be waking up and you know what? You have to attend a funeral today. You don't know what you're facing today. I love Second Chronicles 2017. Do not fear or be dismayed. Go out and face the day, for the Lord is with you. You are not alone today, friend. Wow.
Good word. Good word. Man. We need to do this more often. Young Thunder, what do you got?
Yeah. Today God brought to my mind Exodus 1414. When Moses and the Israelites were about to cross the Red sea. But before they knew they were going to cross the Red sea and their backs were up against the against the water, and the and the Egyptians were coming after them. And Moses goes to God and says, God, what do we do? And Lord says, the Lord will fight for you. You need only to be still. We don't need to try to muster up our way of escape. We don't
need to try and figure it out ourselves. Be still. Seek God and let him do the fighting for you.
Boom! That's good. Want some encouragement? You got it today. We got a lot of encouragement for you today. Boom, crew. And we're overjoyed that you're with us. As a matter of fact, I want to give you a heads up. In fact, be praying. Would you pray? Pray that God would move this year in share unlike ever before. And I've got some great news for you that's going to blow your mind to that end. But we're going to do a one hour kind of blitz share at the
top of this next hour. And I want you to be in prayer that God would move in the hearts of people. And I got some fuel for the fire. Man, we're going to put some birch logs on this thing, and you're going to be blown away with what God is up to coming up here in a little bit. I'm going to tackle a question that has to do with finances in marriage. And I want to warn you of Financial infidelity. We'll get into that coming up here. This is Brandon Lake. Hard fought. Hallelujah. Love what Brandon's
writing these days. Good stuff. Guys, let's go follow Jesus today. The tomb is empty. Our God is alive. And you are as well.
She's a choreographer extraordinaire. And everything is Greek to her. Super die is in the crew. It's Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
It's Carl and crew mornings. You hear Super Die talking in the background and everything is.
Because my equipment.
Around. We're at DNB, which stands for National Relationship with the one who can Save broadcasters.
Amen.
Amen.
That's what I'm going with. I keep changing that. You do?
I like the changes, though. You're keeping it creative. Yeah.
It's better than religious. Yeah.
Because there's a difference between religion and relationship.
Yeah, and I don't want to get too crazy on that because James, the half brother of Jesus, did say there is true religion.
No doubt about.
That. And he wasn't talking about genes.
Wow.
That was good. Good call.
Make sure we're right here. We got it. On a serious note, we've got some great people that are going to be coming through here all week, and I want to set this topic up with something that is absolutely heartbreaking. Uh, goodness sakes, I might cry. Yeah, my bride told me yesterday. Was it yesterday? Two days ago? She said, bub, have
you heard the word coming out of the Congo? Uh, there were 70 of our brothers and sisters, men and women, boys and girls, that were rousted out by radical Islamists. The Congo is notoriously very Christianized, but the Islamic radicals are really wreaking havoc. And they rounded 70 men and women, boys and girls out of their homes, took them into a church and took off their heads. And it was five days later that the militants allowed their loved ones
to even bury their bodies. The amazing thing is that they did not renounce their faith when they had, from what I understand, an opportunity to open doors, shared that story. And you think about that kind of persecution. And because I've been to Africa so many times, I feel like I can see some faces. And it's heartbreaking. In Bujumbura, Burundi, the poorest country, that's the capital, Bujumbura. But in Burundi,
guy's poorest country on the planet, poorer than Sudan. And now you won't know this because mainstream media is not talking about it because there's so much I'm not saying they're complicit. I'm just saying there's so much in the news. But there is the Hutu and Tutsi uprising is going again here. They've been, what, 20 years clear of a civil war. And now here we go again. 15 years, I guess. What do we do? And when we see ourselves in the public square and get some hostility. It
seems very small, comparatively. Doesn't Natasha? Natasha Crane with me right now? That seems pretty small, doesn't it?
It does.
It does. What's that? What's that feel like when I did, you know, about what was going in the Congo with those people that have lost their lives in the most horrific way?
Yeah, I've seen that. I mean, it's a whole different level than anything that we talk about when we talk about hostility in the US. Of course.
How does someone stand up to hostility? Apart from the grace of God? The answer is we don't, do we?
Yeah. I mean, we have to rely on the Lord, and we have to be so convicted that all truth is God's truth and that it matters that we stand up for truth. Yeah, that that that's how we do it. If we're not convicted that Christianity is actually true, then we're going to shrink back as soon as there's any little bit of hostility. You know, we're not facing anything in the US like what our brothers and sisters are
facing in other places. And still so many Christians are afraid to speak up and speak truth because they don't. They don't want to be attacked in any way.
Is it a need for more grace? Is it? What causes that fear of man? And I don't want to Pooh Pooh that, because, I mean, some of the greats that we find in Scripture. When the fire got hot, it some buckled. Peter's a great example, but he ultimately stood and was resolved as he was filled with the Spirit at Pentecost. I mean, what you've studied this, you've researched it. What is the secret spiritual source that gives us the stuff that lets us persevere?
Well, I don't know if there's one secret sauce thing, but I will say that according to the research, about 65% of people in America say that they're Christian. So that's just a self-identified number. But people can call themselves a Christian for any reason.
We are big believers of that, and a lot of people call them. But are they really?
That's exactly right. And so other research that's looking at what people actually believe. In particular, the worldview inventory that comes out of Arizona Christian University's Cultural Research Center, which is headed by Doctor George Barnett. When they look at the percent of people who actually have a biblical worldview, meaning they see all of reality through the lens of what the Bible teaches, they find that it's only about 4%
of Americans. So just think about that gap for a minute, where you have 65% of people saying, hey, yes, I'm a Christian in America, and only 4% who actually believe the core truths of what the Bible teaches. Of course, we're not going to see a lot of Christians standing up for what's true, because they don't actually adhere to what the Bible teaches or believe it.
We've been using that data for two weeks now on our morning show. That is a sobering forecast from George Barna and 4%. So what's that gap? There's a big chunk that have a cultural Christianity which is not biblical Christianity. They aren't born again, so they claim the name of Jesus. What else fills that gap? What? What's in that gap?
Well, I think that there and I don't see that Barna has actually done this specific research to break it out. So this is kind of based on my experience of what I've seen. But there are those who don't know, they don't have a biblical worldview, and there are those who don't claim to have a biblical worldview. So they would say they're a Christian, but they would not say that they believe in the authority of Scripture, for example.
So if you don't believe in the authority of Scripture, obviously you're not going to it for your source of truth. You're not going to see the world through the lens of what the Bible teaches. Others are just confused. Others say they're a Christian and they say, yes, the Bible is God's Word, but when you really get down to it and ask them about their beliefs, they don't actually line up with what the Bible teaches because we're not
reading the Bible enough. As Christians, we're not in God's Word, so we don't actually understand what it teaches.
So you get a passion for this because you've written on it extensively, and we're going to be promoting a great resource coming up here in a little bit. Boom crew. But what do you do when culture hates you and you want to just coach us up? Right now? There's a gap between do I believe it and am I willing to stand up for it? How does knowledge of a worldview. Build fuel for that fire to stand when the fire gets hot.
Yeah, that's a great question. When when you have the knowledge based on what God has revealed, that means that you have the conviction of knowing who God is and who man is and what our relationship is. And when you have that, then you're actually relying on what you know to be true about reality. It's not just a, you know, kind of pie in the sky guess about, well, I think this is what God would want in the
public square. I think this is what God would want for other people and and for me, you know, because you've gone to Scripture and you've said, this is what the God of the universe has said. He's the creator and sustainer of all things. And this is what he's told me about what's good for people? Objectively good. Not just, hey, I feel like this is good, but what's objectively good.
So that knowledge translates into action when you're convicted that it's God who has revealed it, and not just something I've come up with.
So it's below the waterline. It's that stuff that matters most. And I'm convinced I'm convicted that the the essence of biblical Christianity is not out here. It's not what everyone sees. It's not us jumping pews and and even utilizing our gifts or giving our money. It's what is embedded in our heart the truth of God's Word. 50 Promises in Psalm 119 just about getting God's Word in our heart and what it's going to do for us. That's where worldview generates this confidence in Christ.
That's right. And if we as Christians took our Bible study more seriously, I mean, the research also shows that we're not doing it deeply and consistently. So if we took it more seriously, imagine how we could actually change the world for the Lord and shining light in this dark culture, I believe it.
Our guest right now, Natasha Crane, she's got a new resource when culture hates you, persevering for the common good as Christians in a hostile public square, we're going to feature that coming up in just a minute. Keep it pinned right here, helping you take your next step with Jesus.
You're listening to Curl and Crew on Moody Radio.
How do you persevere in the public square when the square thinks we're square? I'm old enough to remember when square was a denigrating statement. Anyone else out there? Anyone remember when? When we were kids? Yeah.
I'm so square.
Yeah. That was that was a very hippie statement.
And you put the fingers to it, too. When you did it, you kind of made that square in front of you. Yeah.
For sure. It's all right. I'll be square for the gospel. Uh, when culture hates you, persevering for the common good as Christians in a hostile public square. Hostility is an interesting word. It's starting to kind of show itself a bit. I think I'm more focused on how do we stand strong. Natasha Crane is with me right now. You've written a whole book on this. How in the world do we
stand strong? We get. We've already just established that we've got to have a biblical worldview, which means we've got to get in the word and get the word into us. Give us another thought on that. Why is that so vital?
Well, I think that it resets our expectations. When we understand what Scripture teaches, then we don't expect for culture to like us. We don't expect that. Oh, you know, as long as people think I'm nice, then I must be doing the right thing because Jesus warned his disciples, you know, if the world hates you, know that it has hated me before. It hated you. So if we actually know Scripture, then we're going to understand when people
cut us off, which is happening a lot today. I hear from people more and more about family members cutting them off and friends cutting them off, even losing jobs over it. I think when we start to see that and we start to look at Scripture, we say, well, this is what we knew to expect. So resetting our expectations, I think, is an important part of this.
That's great. Natasha, you know, I was thinking about that. And people talk about, you know, losing loved ones and family members and friends and that is so accurate and it's so difficult. I also think about kind of the other side of the pendulum here instead of not speaking truth. Maybe sometimes speaking truth in a way that isn't helpful,
isn't kind, isn't upbringing to people. We kind of turn ourselves into angry evangelicals, you know, people that where we're saying the truth of God, but we're not saying it with the love of God, you know, and it kind of turns people off and turns people away from us, kind of makes us look like a jerk. How do we how do we speak the truth? Or when do we speak the truth so that we don't sound like an angry evangelical?
Yeah, that's a really great point. I think that, you know, it's one thing to say we can't gauge whether or not we're being truthful by people's responses to us, but if someone is saying, hey, you are being a jerk about this, you're not you're not being loving in the way you said that it's important that we take a look at ourselves and say, what's my motivation for speaking truth right now? I always want to bring it back
to that. If your motivation is that you love God and therefore you love others, then that is going to lead you into a position of speaking truth with grace. And if you mess up, we're humans. If you mess up and you say something in a way that maybe, you know, you could have done it better, then say that. Say, hey, you know, I said something today, I don't I don't like the way that I said that. Let me take
a step back and say this. So yes, we absolutely have to speak truth in love, but we can't judge whether or not we have been loving only by people's responses to us because the gospel is offensive.
Yeah, and what's strange? And it's so hard to get your head around this, but we're born as enemies of the cross, and we talk a lot about this, and that feels like, hold it. But if we're born with our backs to God, we're born as enemies of the cross, and only the blood of Jesus Christ can regenerate our soul and get us reconciled with him. We need to remember that people's predisposition is going to be against truth, mainly because it bumps up against their inborn worldview.
Yeah, that's exactly right. When we speak truth to people, they they are enemies of the cross, like you're saying. I mean, Scripture makes it clear that people are either children of God or children of Satan. And that sounds that.
Sounds so harsh.
It does. It sounds so harsh. But this is what Scripture teaches that you are either of the world or you are of God, and those who are of the world are slaves to sin. Those who are of God are slaves to righteousness. So of course, those who are slaves to sin are going to hate when those who are children of God are shining light on the works of evil. And yet that's what Scripture says is to take no part in it, but to expose the deeds of darkness.
There's got to be a story behind why in the world you wrote this book, and we're going to give you a link here. When Culture Hates you, Natasha is a podcaster. She's got a lot going on. There's got to be something inside you. A story that said, I got to write this thing.
Well, the catalyst really was that when I get out and I do conferences and speaking events of various kinds, and I meet people everywhere who have been cut off by family members. And it's just really this tragic trend right now. I mean, everywhere I go, I am greeted by people who say, I don't know what to do. My adult children won't talk to me anymore because of
my views on this issue or that issue. And so when they do that, it's just heartbreaking because I feel like there's a lack of understanding in the church about why the culture is hostile, why are these things taking place? And so I really wanted to write a book that would help to shed light on that, to say, hey, this is why the culture hates us. In a lot of cases, when you understand that hostility, it's going to
give you a little bit more strength. It's not going to be easy, but it's important so that we can better engage with the culture and then be the light that we're called to be in spite of that hostility.
How do you not let your positions be politicized? What I mean by that is how do you distance? Because sometimes a certain position can instantly be politicized. We don't want to do that. As Christ followers. We're way we're supposed to rise above the fray of political discourse. Sometimes you can't miss it because it's there. But how do you distance that in a loving way from going, hold it, time out. I don't want you to leap to this is a political view, but rather this is a truth
of scripture. How do you do that?
Well, that's a huge topic. And I think it comes back to how somebody defines politicized or political. So in the book, I give a definition of the political as just being that the way in which people who are living in community make decisions about how they're living together.
So if we kind of strip away all the baggage that can come along with that word, and we just think it's about how do we make decisions as a nation, then of course, Christians should participate in that, but not because we are adhering to one political party or the other, but because we're driving our views from Scripture itself, because we're saying this is what Scripture teaches about the nature of human life. This is what Scripture teaches about the
purpose of human beings. When we start to get those things right, then we're coming back to the Bible for our views and not saying, well, I believe this because this party says so, or that party says so. So it always starts with the Bible pointing us in the direction that we're going to advocate for the common good.
Somebody opens up your book and they start on page one. How do you want them to be different by the time they get to the last page in the book.
I want them to understand that Christianity is not a private faith. It's not something where we just sit in our living room and only have a relationship with Jesus. Of course, we have to start with a relationship with Jesus, but from that relationship is going to flow all kinds of other implications about how we need to shine light in the darkness. There is so much darkness in our culture. This is a culture that is in deep rebellion against its creator. Yes, and we need to be the ones
if we're not going to do it. Who is? Who is going to be out there sharing God's truth? So yes, it all starts with our personal relationship with Jesus, but it's got to go to the next step also to be the light that we are called to be, to shine the light on the works of.
Darkness, I love it. You know, there's we were touching base on this one here, I think it was last Friday. But there's there's three distinct barriers to authentic faith in Jesus Christ. One is rebellion, the other one's blindness. The God of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelieving. And the other one is deception. People that are in the church who are going to say, Lord, Lord, and
he's going to say, I never knew you. This whole worldview, there's there's something about it that's going to embed confidence in your relationship with Jesus. When you begin to get in the word and the word gets into you.
That's right. Because then it becomes this objective knowledge. It's not just I feel this because I've always been a Christian or I always grew up in a Christian home, but it's I know this is true. I know this is true. Even if at any given time I feel like God's not there, I can come back to the objective knowledge that this is truth, that God's Word is true for all time.
Guys, I want you to check it out. If the Spirit of God is prompt in your heart when culture hates you, persevering for the common good as Christians in a hostile public square, and you know who this is for? This is my heart for you right now. You got a wayward kid that maybe went to university and you're like, what in the world happened? This kid was raised in church. Just because they're raised in church doesn't mean they're in Christ. And we don't need to talk him back into getting
in church. Maybe we need to be real salt and light. Light to our kids. Light to our loved ones, it says. Hey, I've got a well-grounded faith. It's not. It's not meme faith. It's real faith. And let me talk with you about core issues. Hang on. We got a resource for you. Text the word culture right now. Text the word culture to our number right here and we'll get a link out to you. Culture to 800 555 7898. Just text culture to 805 five five 7898. We'll get this into
your hands, wherever you are. Canada. Alabama. Chicagoland. Where we originate from or beyond. Come and get it. Text culture to 800 555 7898. I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart. Natasha, we not only do we have common stomping grounds for a little bit. Tustin, California. That's a funny story. Little podunk place called Tustin, and my wife and I spent a year there, and that's where you reside. Thank you for being salt and light in our culture today. And thank you for writing this.
Thank you so much. It's great talking with you.
Text culture to 800 555 7898. Culture to 800 555 7898. Oh, man. You're grabbing up this resource left and right. Boom! Crew. Way to go, guys. We love you. Let's go, let's go do it. Let's radiate the truth of God in this culture today.
A basketball mom who's mastered the dad joke. Ali is in the crew. It's Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
All right, guys, we're rolling here. We are broadcasting live from NB. You know what that stands for? What's that national Relationship with Jesus, the King of Kings and the one who sets us free and causes us to be salt and light in this world till today. Hold on. I'm not done. Broadcaster. Oh thank you, thank you. Important NB I got to get the broadcast right.
Otherwise it's just an hour.
My goodness. All right, I'm going to bring a man in here. I have known him from afar for a lot of years. Phil Cook, you're a wild man for Jesus.
Well, I'm kind of that's. I've never been introduced that way. But it works. That works. That really does.
There's a lot of firsts around here, Phil.
I can see that.
Uh, it's great to have you with us. Give us your background. Uh, tell us your spiritual story.
I'm a preacher's kid from Charlotte, North Carolina.
And you're in recovery.
I am recovery. You know what? I've grown up. I spent my life behind the scenes in church. I've mowed the church. Cemetery. Growing up, I filled a million communion cups. I did church bulletins in the mimeograph machine. Oh, no.
Yeah, I remember those machines. They got ink all over your fingers.
Exactly. I have nightmares, and no, I loved it. And I've never had a calling to be a pastor. But I've always seen that. You know what? We don't project the best image out there to the general culture. Very often we the way we tell our story, the way we engage the culture. So somehow God pulled me into this media, television, film arena. And I've been producing films and television programs, and we focus mostly on how to
engage the culture with the gospel. And we just want to help churches use media more effectively.
All right. I'm gonna do something totally different. You want to. First, I want you to tell me, what are the high points of your career in Christ, that you go, man? God showed up right here.
Oh, gosh. Where do I start? I think, you know, when I getting into this business was a powerful way to do it. I started college as a piano major. My dad was a pastor, so that's what I that was my job description at the time.
Now it would be guitar, but it was piano.
It was piano back then, and I enrolled as a piano major, and I had made little super eight movies in high school with a group of my buddies and took them to college, discovered a friend across the hall in the dorm that could edit films, and I didn't even know you could cut film. And he showed me how to do it. The professor saw one of them said, man, I've got students that have been taken for years that can't do this well. Can I show this to my
class tomorrow? So I said, sure. So I went in, sat in the back of the row, you know, during the class the next day, he showed my little movie and they discussed it, and I had this crystal clear moment of revelation I don't think I've had before since that if I could do something with a camera that makes people talk like this, this is what I'm supposed to do with my life. God completely changed the trajectory of my life at that moment, and I've never looked back.
It's been, what, 40, 45 years? I've never looked back.
You've got a unique vantage point on the church.
I do, yeah.
And it gives you a level of objectivity that's helpful.
Yeah. It's interesting. It is the intersection of media and culture. You know, media is the language today's culture speaks. And I think as Christians, if we don't use media effectively, we're going to we're just going to drop out of the conversation. And we wonder why Christianity is disappearing from the culture. I think a lot of it is because we don't speak the language of today's culture.
Coming up, Phil Cooke with us here, filmmaker, thinker, PhD, and helping us understand what really matters is the church on trial. Phil Cooke says, yes, the church is on trial and that's what we're going to break down coming up here straight ahead.
He was running from God, but God's love brought him home. Carl is in the crew. It's Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
Interesting thing here. What a setup. Sometimes we are ashamed and that keeps us in trouble. All right, I'm going to cut to the chase. We got Phil Cook here. How in the world did you write a book? Church on trial. And what are we on trial for?
You know, it's so often if you've seen the headlines lately, in the last couple of years, you've seen a lot of scandals in churches. A lot of it.
Seems like it's it was like two decades, three decades ago. It was a rash of them and now it's coming back again.
It does. And over the years, I'm a media producer. I'm not an attorney or a counselor. But early in my career, I started getting calls from churches, pastors, leaders saying, look, we're going through a crisis. Can you help us? What should we do? How do we tell the congregation? How do we tell the public? Do we release a statement? Just a lot of communication related questions. Yeah. So I
stepped in and started working with quite a number. And after all these years and seeing all these headlines, I decided, let's put it into a book. So a pastor, an executive pastor, board members can have it on their desk in case a crisis happens. Okay.
What what is it that causes churches to handle things poorly, whether it's outside conflict with the culture or internal compromise?
Yeah, I think a lot of things. A big part of it is they mean well, they're trying to protect someone. Maybe they're trying to protect a family in the church or protect the pastor. Very often if the pastor is accused of something, we we tend to circle the wagons and protect him at all costs. Not thinking about the victim or the alleged victim. And so I think a big part of this is we want to do the right thing, but we're just not sure what they do.
What to do. So they often cover things up or just not mention certain things or try to hide things. I'm working with the church right now that they just believe that if we don't mention it, it's going to go away eventually. Well, in today's digital social media world, it will not go away. It just gets worse.
And I'm not sure that it should. It seems to me that we ought to bring this out, but at what level do you bring it out? I'm a big believer. I heard a story again here recently, where a young couple was trotted up on stage in front of people that they never knew. I know that people think pastors think this is church discipline done right. It's done wrong, right? Because you're shaming people instead of trying to restore people. How do we go forward being restorative without being punitive?
How do you do that?
There's a number of ways. My book doesn't cover the idea of being restored back to ministry. That's a whole different subject, a whole nother subject. Maybe it's time to go work at Home Depot for a while if you've had a long while. Yes, a long while. But I do think that we need to tell the truth, that we know we don't have to go into gory details. We don't have to trot people up on stage and
humiliate them in front of the congregation. But I think when people in the church are asking when there's questions, if we're not honest, people start to speculate, they start to ask questions on social media, and it can blow up in a pretty big way.
Okay. Coming up here in a few minutes, we're going to break down some of those ways that we tackle these things. And I want to give you a heads up right now I am asking you to grab this resource today for one reason. Are you ready for this, to give it to a pastor or a spiritual leader
or a board member? Yeah, that that religious not for profit that those leaders because this is a resource that I'm going to pack with me as a pastor in Chicagoland, because how we handle crises when they arise is everything. So we're going to break down just a little bit of the process straight ahead.
This is Curling Crew on Moody Radio.
Broadcasting live from NB. What that stands for is national relationship with Jesus that transforms a sinner into a saint and doesn't make us perfect, but gives us all the grace we need to walk in abundance. Broadcasters. That's what it stands for. NB. Amen. All right. It is a joy to have Phil Cook here. I've known of you and followed you from afar. And my goodness, you're right here in front of me, my man.
This is fun.
This is great. This is great. Okay. Church on trial. How to protect your congregation, mission and reputation during a crisis. How do we prevent? How do we get proactive? How do we get out in front of this as a church culture?
You know, one of the things I suggest in the book is being transparent. You know, as leaders, Christian leaders especially, we should always be transparent. I even go down in the book. I even outline a church in the Chicago area that was remodeling their office building. And the pastor said, you know what? I want to take away any opportunity for people to stumble. And he put a window and a glass door in every office.
Boom, boom. I'm a big believer.
And people will often say, well, if they want to have a relationship, they'll they'll do it somewhere else. Actually, in my experience, 90% of all illicit, you know, immoral relationships like that start in the office. Maybe we're working too late. Maybe you're, you know, a pastor and his assistant or spending. That's the time. It is. Really is. And so being, you know, in my office, I'm not even a pastor. I'm a media producer, but I've got three people in my office that have access to my email.
Have they have access to my calendar? It'd be hard for me to arrange a inappropriate rendezvous with someone with all these people eyeballs looking at what I'm doing. So I think being transparent in so many areas like that, I think is critical. Another thing that's big is red flags. I don't think as Christians, you know, we want to think the best of each other. But very often we need to be more aware of red flags in the church. Does it mean we become behaviour cops because false accusations
can destroy lives? But if we were more give you an example, the executive pastor that just comes in in the morning strangely looking like he's got a hangover. Maybe that youth leader that's spending a little too much time with one minor girl in the youth group. Just being aware of those things could stop it in the bud. Nip it in the bud, as Barney Fife used to say, long before it ever could blow up into a real scandal. And I think that, you know, at the airport, they
say if you see something, say something. I think we should train our teams. I'll give you a good example. One church, while I was writing the book, had a visitor come one Sunday. Nice guy, young man, you know, super nice meeting everybody. Um, and a couple elders. Really sharp or. Excuse me. Ushers just noticed he was looking at kids an awful lot. So they went over to him, introduced themselves, got his name, went back to the office, looked on the sex registry list, sex offender list. There
he was. And so they had to have that sit down meeting with, you know, we want you to come to church. We want Jesus to transform your life. But there's got to be boundaries.
You know, when I was in Bible college, in seminary, I had one man in particular that took me aside and he lovingly said to me, never meet with a woman alone. And if there is a crisis, have a secretary or someone outside the door and the door cracked open or glass. And I've done that. And you know what?
It is good. On the issue of finances. Yes, I have a policy in our church in Chicagoland with our elders that we put in place that doesn't give me or staff the latitude to go spend willy nilly at all. There's a limit, and then there's constant checks, and even third party goes through our books to report back to our elders what's going on? It seems that if we just did some preventative things, we'd keep our turkey out of the squisher.
Phil, you know, a church in Alabama had a secretary who ran their finances. Come to find out, she'd embezzled more than a half $1 million over ten years from a church, and she'd paid off her house. She'd paid her for a couple cars. She'd paid for a kid to go to college.
Maybe without the opportunity that might have not gone down that path.
No guardrails in place, no guardrails. And the church had to close. And that's what really breaks my heart, is when churches close because of a mistake by one person, or a stupid act by one person. The church ministry shouldn't have to shut down. But this one will because she has. She's supposed to pay it back, but she's never going to be able to pay that back.
We don't like to talk about this stuff.
No. It's awkward. You're right. In fact, you're bold. Let me say this. You're very bold. Because many radio broadcasters, television broadcasters, podcasters I've approached about the book will say, you know, Phil, that's really not a subject I want to talk about right now. I love the book, and I'm glad you wrote it, but it's just not something I feel comfortable with. And I'm thinking, wow, look at the headlines. How can we stop this from happening so much? It's interesting.
Okay, so proactivity is key. Yellow flags. Red flags. How do you keep from becoming a cynic? Because you can look around and go, my goodness.
Yeah, it's true. And I've seen a lot over the years and worked with major ministries big, some of the most effective, biggest churches in the country. And I have to say that my philosophy is God is bigger than whatever bonehead happens to be representing him in a given time. You know, I just think that God is bigger than all.
This, and there's thousands that haven't bowed a knee to Baal.
That's true, that's true. And you know, it doesn't excuse you know, it doesn't excuse sexual abuse. It doesn't excuse embezzlement, by the way, in financial embezzlement is in the millions and millions of dollars every year in churches in America. It's staggering when you look at the embezzlement statistics, people stealing money, it's staggering.
So those stick on this money thing for a moment to do a basic parameters and accountability, prevent a windfall of garbage, right?
Yeah, well, I think, you know, I'll tell you, one of the problems I see in the church is we've got this almost a joke that we hire quickly and fire slowly in a church. So we think, well, brother Bob, he's he volunteered. He's a good guy. Let's hire him. Put him on staff. We don't vet him very well. We don't take the time to really explore Bob's past. And then when we get Bob on staff, it takes us forever. And we find out he's not a good fit and he doesn't work. Takes us forever to cut
him loose. So I don't think we should cut people to the curb, but let's help them find their purpose and destiny somewhere else. If they're causing problems in the church or ministry that we have now. So I do think vetting employees is so critical. We need to hire based on character more than ability. I'm glad you're a great video guy. I'm glad you're a great youth leader.
But what about your character? Let's look at that. So if we just took that time, it would be it would make such a dramatic difference.
You're talking to a lot of leaders right now. How does someone vet someone in a world today where And oftentimes as a pastor, I've run through this where you get names and references and they how do you dig below? What is, at first blush, right in front of you?
There are a number of ministry safe type organizations vetting dotcom and a bunch of other organizations that focus on helping find out. Does someone have a criminal record? Have they done anything sketchy in their past? But, you know, a simple following up on references, looking at their social media? Just some little things like that can make a dramatic difference right off the bat. I'm amazed at the number of churches that hire people and never make those calls
for their to their references, never even call anybody. And so. Well, we just believe, you know, Sam is a good guy. He seems to be really nice. Let's get him on. Well, maybe Sam's done some stuff that we're going to. I've actually I'm working with a church right now that they're really struggling with that they hired somebody they shouldn't have hired, and it's really coming back to bite them in a big way.
He's got a book out, guys. It's called Church on Trial How to protect your Congregation. mission. That means 501 C3 is right with religious designation. Totally and reputation during a crisis. What's good about this book is it tells you how to keep your turkey out of that squisher to begin with.
Amen. Yeah. You know what I tell people don't think about, you know, it's not if we'll have a crisis, it's when we'll have a crisis. And this social media age, there's so many ways for someone in your staff to say something inappropriate, do something inappropriate, somebody to say something they shouldn't, that we just always should be ready. You just never know. So I wrote the book to help pastors, ministry leaders, staff be ready in case something happens.
Here's what I want you to do. Boom crew, I want you to think about pastors and staff, and I want you to think about a pastor appreciation gift that you're going to buy now, because it's not October. Isn't that the month that we're supposed to be appreciating pastors? No, I want you to get it now. And I want you to do this because Phil Cook, I got to tell you, I don't think it takes courage for us to bring you on here. I just think it takes wisdom.
We got to talk about this stuff. So here's the deal. It's called Church on trial. How to protect your congregation, mission and reputation during a crisis. I'm asking you to consider. Would you grab a copy or two and give this to a couple of spiritual leaders or missional leaders? You know that you're like, you know what? I'm not here calling you into question. I'm here to say, might there be something in here that would prevent something that would cause a bigger question down the road?
Well said, well said.
All you got to do is text the word trial and we'll get a copy right at your disposal here. You're going to have a link set up. Ready to go. Text trial to 800 555 7898. Text trial to 800 555 7898. Phil, thank you for being with us.
Thank you. I'm honored. This has been.