Coming to you from the Morning Star Mission sponsored studio. This is Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
Every. Healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. That's really simple teaching.
Yeah. No doubt. I mean, that's hard.
That's really basic stuff. But if you need another analogy, Allie's got a perfect one. She got a front porch that was going south in a hurry.
Yeah, we didn't know how bad it was. First. Just started with the crack in one of the risers. Then we noticed the treads were getting more and more wobbly. It felt unsteady and unsafe, so we got a couple people out to look at it. And at first it seemed like, okay, you know, this is going to be not too expensive. Simple fix. Replace this here and this here.
But as they started to pull things apart, it became clear that the porch had been built in a really hasty and not great construction kind of way, if you know what I mean.
Lousy.
Yeah. Sometimes these things go up quick and they're not done well. And so they would identify an issue here and they'd say, well, we can leave it. The joists are a little bit too far apart for the size of the porch. We could leave it or I thought, well, no, you can't leave it. I don't want a porch that's going to look good, but then sag and start to crumble again in a couple of years. So it ended up being a much more expensive project and rebuild than
we had bargained for. But once we saw the underlying issues, we said, we can't ignore these and just slap a coat of paint on it. We actually have to fix what's underneath.
That's the point. And today, when it comes to marriage, here's the big idea. I know I've done it. Well, let's put a little caulk on this marriage and let's get a little bit of paint.
Feels a little.
Cheaper at the moment. Easier, cheaper.
Let me just get her some flowers. I know I left her crying yesterday, but let's just get some flowers and let's just kind of that'll kind of patch things up a little bit. But underlying what's going on sometimes flowers can't fix dip diddly squat.
Not until you deal with dip diddly squat.
Yeah, well, he's been working with me too long.
Yeah, he's starting to so good. I'm sorry. I'm trying to control my smile.
My heart just leapt for joy when she.
Said, dip.
Diddly squat.
You know.
Oh, hang on, Dan Allender's going to help us get to the root of this. This is one of the most important, kind of really salient issues in marriage. Look, becoming friends like we hit with Arlene and cultivating that liking. That's important. That's vital. All these things play together. But we can't leave this one out. What is it? Getting to the root of the issue in marriage and in life.
Romans eight brought her to Jesus while broadcasting traffic overnight. Super dei is in the crew. It's Colonel and crew on Moody Radio.
Well, everybody's got a theory until it gets tested. Sometimes those theories are then good or abandoned. I've got a man that I dearly love. And I mean, I love this guy. I don't get any time with him. We used to bump into one another on occasion, but I love him from afar. He's written some amazing books and he's a phenomenal thinker. And he's got a theory. And I want to know if this theory holds any water. It's the gender theory. Doctor Dan, does your theory work?
Carl? It works about as well as, you know, a sieve.
What is what is the theory that's been driving you for three decades, my friend?
Well, it's so simple. It is so simple. You cannot change what you refuse to name. So when we open the door to facing reality in our own brokenness, but in our own image of God, beauty deep things happen in the human heart when we engage our story and our story of how we came to be who we are, but also the story of what we're meant to bring to the glory of God in life today.
That is beautiful. What? Give us a story of someone who named it and what that did for them.
Well, I'm going to say me.
When my wife and I just had a conflict over whether or not a baked potato was actually done. Now, that sounds fairly pathetic for a couple that's been married for 48 years, but we were in the middle of this. We're sharing a baked potato. And when I put the fork in, I thought, no, it's not done. She thought it was done. Come now. That's pretty surface. Do our stories. The kitchen was the context where my wife knew the love of her mother, and almost nowhere else in terms
of food, was the way that she was shown love. Now, for me, in my family, the kitchen was a war zone of incredible conflict. So what we're living out over a silly baked potato are the stories that have formed us with regard to how we manage being in that particular world called the kitchen.
How important is it? Get to the bottom of the stories. I had something happen. Amazing. Recently I was asked by someone first recollection of life. My first recollection of life was the great earthquake, Alaskan earthquake of 1964. I was four years old and it's the first recollection is seeing two and a half stories of cinder blocks fall to the ground and see the earth split open in front of me. And if not for a dad that loved me even while I peed my bed for the next
many years, that embarrassed me, filled with shame. It was good for me to go back to that moment out in front of that home, when the whole earth was shaking under me. Those things matter, don't they? Dan.
Oh, Carl. Such a profound story of seeing the earth break into two. And in that sense, you're entering trauma. You're entering capital T trauma. But most of us have small traumas nonetheless. They shape the neurological structure of how we respond to the realities of the world around us. And if back to that phrase, if we can't name, we can't see change. And that's why Scripture constantly calls
us back into facing reality and remembering. Choosing to remember so that we can indeed take the good and let it shape us, and to take that which has brought us harm and allow our hearts to, in one sense, come to a new level of healing like you did when you come face to face with that memory.
Yeah. It's powerful. Dan Allender, Doctor Dan Alander is my guest right now. Prolific author, phenomenal communicator and wise beyond his years. And that's true because he's not a young man anymore. But he's got a lot of wisdom. So here's where we're going. And that is deeply rooted. Marriage is a brand new book. He has. We're drilling down on this all week long. But I've got to ask this. How does someone embrace a story that they can't stand? They hate it. They don't even want to remember it.
How do you embrace it?
Well, I don't think any of us can enter those stories without the sense of the Spirit of God coming before us, behind us, above and below. But we have to actually believe the spirit is leading us into those stories so that we have an awareness of why a baked potato is causing conflict. Oh my gosh. You know, like, that's just ridiculous. Until Becky and I were able to step back and go, wait a minute. We're each in a different kind of war zone. We're in a world
where we're not just responding to the surface moment. There's a deep current. There are deep roots to this issue. Now, we're not going to spend a million years trying to work it through, but having the language of knowing that trauma is shaping the triggers in your conflicts, instead of trying to just resolve the conflict. Could we go to the roots? I mean, look, you are a gardener. You know that if you cut something off at the top, a weed at the top. It's not going to get better.
It's going to get worse. So we got to get to the roots. But in doing so, we can only do so with the power of the spirit guiding us, because we know John 13 through 15 tells us that one of the one of the works of the spirit is that it brings back to memory. So if we can step back, as you did to that four year old young Carl who is shattered, then there is a healing that can occur that gives you so much more freedom than what you would have had before.
Yeah. Beautiful. There's hope on the way here. Boom crew. You know, coming up here in a moment, Dan, it seems like the the generally broad brushing the Christian church, knowing there's plenty of exceptions. We have, we have seconded ourselves or reduced ourselves to working on the leaves and external branches. And your supposition is. Now let's go down to the root. Let's not even pay those. No, never mind for a little bit. Let's get down to the root and watch what God can do. Coming up here.
Doctor Dan Allender brand new book, Deep Rooted Marriage. Let's get to the root. Straight ahead.
This is Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
Got a good man with us here. Boom. Crew. His name is Doctor Dan Allender. He is developed a theory. And that theory actually drives his work, which is really cool, isn't it, Dan? That that what you're passionate about drives what you do. You must you must calculatedly make it so right. I mean, it must just flow out of you.
Absolutely. From the heart flows all the matters of what we do in a day and how we live our lives.
All right. How does a marriage move from surface behavior modifications into a deeply rooted marriage that then flourishes as God intended. How does that work?
Well, you got to start with the problems.
You know, when we look at most marriages, you've got those four top issues sex, money, children, in-laws, family. And when you begin to go, look, we still get triggered over certain things that frankly, in most occasions are pretty ridiculous. However, underneath you've got to begin to open the door to what is shaping my way of responding to these kinds of. Well, in the moment seem like big deals, but when you begin to look at the roots, you're often looking at
where real harm has occurred in your own past. And then the question is, how do you invite God into those parts for healing?
When you speak of these roots, that's often associated with a lot of pain and a lot of lot of shame. How? What's the payoff for going there? I mean, let's just cut to the chase. Somebody's sitting here going, you know what? I don't want to go back to my alcoholic home where my dad said, you're a blankety blank. You'll never amount to this as he hit me.
Absolutely.
Look, if you look in the mirror and you see this little black mole on your face and you go, ah, no big deal, I'll just, you know, maybe cover it over. Well, you have the possibility of letting a carcinoma grow. You have the potential of that particular skin cancer literally moving in to taking over your body. And let me put it bluntly, killing you. Yeah. That's the reality of not dealing with the things that have shaped and bound us
and created, as you put it brilliantly, the reality of shame. Look, when you enter shame, you're going to going to feel shame when you enter those stories. You're going to feel a level of hurt or heartache or anger and it seems like too much. Well, you got to go. You got to go to the doctor and begin the process of dealing with what's on your face. Even more so, we've got to go to God and begin the process of dealing what's really in our heart. Otherwise, do you
want death? Look, most marriages, even good ones, don't want to mess with the things that are really, really at core of our own war. But that's the fundamental point that marriage is meant to reveal. It's it's a relationship that exposes the best of who you are and in some ways, the worst. So if we have the humility to say, we need help, I need to grow, then we're going to open the door to dealing with what is at some level cancer within us.
Let me ask you, if I went deep enough rooted in my marriage, I was confronted seven years into our marriage that my bride and at this time, we're knee deep in ministry and we're seeing lives changed. And I'm walking through our home and my wife reaches out and grabs my wrist and I look down. Her chin is quivering in a nanosecond. I said, what's wrong? Because I thought someone died. Well, someone died, all right. She looked at me and Dan, I am unafraid to share this
because this is too common. She looked at me and she said, Bob, I am scared to death because I don't love you anymore.
Hmm.
Now we're both radically transformed by Jesus. We're both genuinely saved. There's no question about it. The Holy Spirit fills us. But I was in a battle then, and I had to face the embarrassment of being an Alaskan. Build it, fix it. We can repair it. And I had no answers for this girl, Dan. None. I walked around the corner, looked in the mirror of our vanity, and I was in a hellacious war. Satan was telling me, blame her for all of her stuff, and she would have readily
admitted it. And I had to come face to face with the fact that I didn't know how to love my wife as Christ loved the church, and I was a pitiful husband. And then I had to dig down to what? What in the world made me that way? And it was a hard journey, to be honest with you. Dan, now we're 37 years marriage and she's my best buddy, and that's genuine. Now, we aren't perfect, but she's my buddy. I mean, we love each other and she loves me.
But what keeps people from facing those really tough things?
Well, Carl. Well, I mean, one of the things that I've loved about you for decades is your humility. Uh, you you can be brazen. You can be bold, but there is a humility of acknowledgment that there's something I need, something at times that's deeply wrong with me, and that's how do you put it better then? That's a biblical view of self that then says, but there is something in me that can bring goodness and that core. Two things.
Number one, I know I need, I know I need, but I also know I want and what's the want. I want to be more of who God has made me to be, even with regard to that humility of I'm a mess. And there are reasons in my failure of my wife that has kept her from being free to love me in the way that I do desire. So that interplay I need, I want that's so core to indeed a deep rooted marriage.
Yeah, there's a notion in some Christian circles that to want something is somehow unspiritual. That's a performance metric, Symmetric, isn't it?
It is, but.
It comes right back to Genesis 218. And God said, it is not good. Look, he has said every day it is good, it is good. But the one point he says, it's not good. It's for man to be alone. So you obviously know he is put within us, wired us to need to, in one sense, be in a relationship where we're interdependent. Yet for many men, that's a level of vulnerability.
Yeah.
Yeah. That opens the door to that fear of shame.
Why is that for men? More so than women? Why?
Well, well.
Gosh, let's at least begin with the whole notion that men don't cry.
Oh, I cry like a baby sometimes.
Well, but you know that that's a cultural law. Uh, explicit? sometimes implicit, so that that notion of strength and invulnerability versus seeing that indeed, you know, the Apostle Paul says, it is in my weakness that I'm strong. That's the framework of being able to say, I need my wife, but I need not so much for her to cover over or just resolve. I need her to be honest.
I need her to open the door to the realities my own heart would not naturally face without the reality of her calling me to be a better man than at times I am.
That's beautiful. Well, we have barely even scratched it. Boom! Crew. I want you to spread the word far and wide. And here's why. A lot of what you will read, or you suppose, is that I've got to rearrange some of the branches that are outward facing Doctor Dan Allender. His supposition is different. We got to go to the root deep rooted marriage. We've got a link for you right now. I want you to text the word deep.
We're going to make it easy. We've got a link where you can get a copy of this today or two, and maybe bring it to a small group and say, let's go through this. Maybe it's a men's group. You say, let's go through this, let's do some hard work here. Let's get down to the bottom. If you got the courage to do it, I invite you in. Text the word deep right now, just the word deep to 805, 55, 78, 98. Deep to 855 578, 98.
A basketball mom who's mastered the dad joke, Ali is in the crew. It's Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
You don't have to look far in the scriptures, and you find over and over again the need to Understand that the greatest issues in our life we can tackle are below the surface. I say this all the time, but it's true. The unseen things matter. Most guys. It's below the water line.
How often do you say that the presenting issue is rarely the real issue? I mean, I'm sure you see this as a pastor. Somebody comes into your office and says, I want to deal with this. You know, let's take marriage. My my wife just doesn't get it. She doesn't understand me or vice versa. You go. Okay, let's. That's probably not really what's going on? Let's dig a little bit deeper.
When I heard that counseling idiom, the presenting issue is rarely the issue.
Yeah.
Uh, it was probably three decades ago I first heard that. I'm like, bingo.
Oh, yeah.
Bingo.
You know where I feel like this? This plays out a lot in, like, you know how we respond to people sometimes. Maybe, like, maybe you have a history of Snapping at people, you know. Someone's talking to you, and just all of a sudden you just snap and kind of say something back. That's like a little mean. You don't usually say, oh, man, I just like to snap at people every now and then for no reason. No. You go, oh, I'm sorry. You know what? I'm just
having a bad day. I'm really stressed right now. There's always something that causes you to snap. And so and that's the same with every issue that we deal with. Every single one has something underneath that. Hey, this is why you're doing that. You don't just do it because you do it because of this.
Yeah. You're meddling now, young Thunder.
It's true.
Because that's a big one. We can. It's so true that we blame surface issues for things that if we dig a little bit deeper, it's like, yeah, there's something else going on here. That's why I love James, man. You see, disorder and every evil practice, you go below the surface. There is envy and selfish Ambition. I mean, it's just great. I mean, I got a whole list of these here that are just outstanding. We find over and over again in Scripture that this whole tree and
fruit versus root issue. And Jesus says it best in the sermon on the Mount. So every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit. A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit. I'll tell you what, man, if you walk away from that and go. Huh?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I mean, that's just like, that is the most simple, clear and profound principle of how lives change and how marriages grow.
I mean, it's the biblical equivalent of one plus one equals two. Healthy tree. Healthy fruit. Root disease tree. Bad fruit. I mean, it's pretty simple.
It's really simple. But isn't it interesting? We find ourselves putting and I. And I'm not trying to be crass or crude. I've done that a time or two. I haven't been crass or crude on purpose, but I've. I've done it a time or two. And you know what? If I dig below the surface, there's probably something else driving that there. But I'm going to I'm going to say something here, not for the expediency of being cool or hip, but to be clear, we try to put
lipstick on pigs and we try to polish turds. And when we are and I mean this from the bottom of my heart. And as a pastor, I need you to hear me. Sometimes the answer isn't more prayer, more Bible reading. Get busier. Go to a new small group. Sometimes the issue is deep introspection Going, why am I doing this? And if we dig down to the bottom, Katie, bar the door. Coming up here. We've got Ali's got a graphic for you. That is epic. She just whipped this thing up this morning on the fly. I don't
know how you do that. If I had to do that. Oh, forget about it. But she whipped up a graphic, and she's also got a perfect illustration that captures this whole issue of, in its true, of marriage. And here's the beauty. If you go to the root of marriage issues, you're actually going to the root of yourself. And this will have huge ripple effects. We're going to break it down for you coming up. We're going to go to Ali's front porch. It's a little rickety. Well, maybe it's better now.
He's a sports fanatic with a stat for anything you can think of. Young Thunder is in the crew. It's curl and crew on Moody Radio.
Yeah, we're in a spiritual battle here. And sometimes praise is the best thing that we can do. If you see David ministering to Saul, he's playing a harp. And it drove demonic forces away. What an amazing picture, by the way. A man who knew that he was targeted by Saul, and yet he ministered to him in that way. All these songs matter. Most of them are baked in with great theology. And it matters. Give God praise today.
Let's watch. Demonic forces flee. It's a powerful principle. Well, he's got a front porch that was going south, and I got photos sent to me.
And said, oh, boy, so good.
Yeah, man. I'm the I'm the fiddling dad when her dad's not close by. I'm the fill in dad. And I don't mind being a filling dad, especially when it comes to construction and home projects. And I've seen a lot. I've seen sump pumps in her basement. I've seen it all, guys.
Yeah.
I've called upon Karl a couple of times. I sent him some pictures of my of my front porch, which had developed a crack in one of the risers. That was our first clue that something might be up because the porch is only maybe six years old. This is not an old home. This was a gut rehab that was redone. Yeah. So I thought, why is our porch
starting to crack? And why does it seem like some of the steps are getting more and more wobbly to where I almost want to put a sign up that says watch your step, that this isn't good.
And so you get inside.
It's all good. But getting here could be.
Treacherous, right?
Be super careful when you deliver that mail. But I really started to be concerned about the safety of the front porch. And so got a couple people to check it out, and they said, yeah, you know, the riser. We need to check the stringers and make sure things are are stable and sound. And we got a couple estimates that weren't crazy. It's like, okay, this is this
seems like a fairly easy fix. But as they started to pull things apart to fix what was wrong, it became clear that the problems were much deeper than what we could see on the surface. It wasn't just a cracked riser. It was a whole structure that was not built properly. The joists were too far apart. The porch was starting to sag in the middle because the ends
were not leveled out. So there were many, many problems and at each step, knowing that the price tag was going up, they would ask us, do you want us to keep going? We could just leave it as is, you know, patch things up and kind of get you back with the front porch. One day, two days, three days turn to like a week without being able to go through our front door. But I thought, you know what? We can't just ignore this and pretend it's not there. So we had them do each step. Yep. Go ahead
and fix it. Get it right, fix the structure, make it even, make it. So we're not going to be revisiting this in a year or two. Many days later, some thousands of dollars, thousands of dollars later, we have a brand new front porch. We didn't want to do it, but it was the obvious choice. If we wanted to have a home that stands the test of time.
This is true in life. Beautiful story. Holly.
This is life. You get these.
Overarching. And I'm going to use the word sin because that means missing the mark. Of pride and greed and hoarding and gluttony and lust and envy and cowardice and laziness. But what's the underlying sin? What's the underlying sin? Well, Allie built a graphic that has a compare and contrast. And guys, this is freeing. And it's simple. If you haven't followed us yet, today is the day because it's the it's the most recent post up there, right?
It is. And it's on Facebook and Instagram. Just search Carl and crew if you want to look at this. What is if you pride is at the surface what's the underlying sin. What about gluttony greed. Once you see it it makes perfect sense. Go ahead and check it out on Facebook and Instagram. Carl and crew.
Okay. Coming up we're going to tackle that a little bit and give you some hope. Is it hard to face it. Yeah. It's like getting a bid. It's like oh yeah this porch we porch, we can fix it up for, you know, a grand. Then it's like, oh, the risers are snapped. Now we can put some gooky putty on that thing and paint it up, or we can fix it. And it's that fixing it that we want to talk about spiritually. Will it help your marriage and your life radically? This is this is real discipleship. Hang on.
He was running from God, but God's love brought him home. Carl is in the crew. It's Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
I use some graphic language around here at times. I don't try to do it gratuitously. I'm sure I've slipped up a couple of times. That's called coarse jesting. But when I say we're spending too much time polishing turds, I know it's a little crass, but we need to. I just need to pour out my heart to you. The analogy breaks down because you're not a turd, But sometimes we get into a spiritual kind of routine that tries to get busier for God, that we try to
read more in Scripture about God. We try to prove our worth to God. We try to prove our worth to others. Oh, isn't that horrible? Yeah, we try to gain approval. And you know what? We're just putting lipstick on this thing, man. And God loves us so much that he wants us to go below the surface to find out what's really going on here. We're talking about this. If you want to rock in marriage, you want to
rock in abundant relationship with Jesus. Part of the reason you're disillusioned with faith is because you're putting lipstick on this thing rather than going, what? What's going on down here? And I'm not against lipstick.
I just want.
To clarify.
That.
Sure, but but guys, you think about lust. Men listen to me. Women too. This is growing, by the way, in our society. You know what lust is? It's an overarching sin of an underlying issue. In real sin, it's gratification apart from God. God doesn't want to say to you, oh, quit satisfying this and that. Whatever. Lust and lust comes in lots of different ways, by the way, manifesting greed to. But lust is just gratification apart from God. God wants
to satisfy what we're doing. Surface stuff for greed is just being discontent with the generosity of God that he's already lavished on us. Every good and perfect gift comes down from above. The father of lights, in whom there is no shifting shadow. Oh my goodness. I'm filled with joy this morning. Because if we can get to the point where we quit polishing stuff and quit lipstick and stuff, and we go below the surface and say, as David did in this, I'm convinced, is the essential discipline plan
of introspection. Search me, know me, try me. See if there'd be any hurtful way. Deep inside me. And lead me in the way. Everlasting. Now all of a sudden, Bible reading has meaning. Now all of a sudden, using our spiritual gifts has greater joy. Now all of us see what I'm saying, guys?
Yeah.
And it's so important to handle that foundational stuff, understand what it is that's hurting us, and then do something about it. Because if we just address that top, top floor issue, then it's always going to come back. Like Ali's analogy. Carl, uh, I think of the story you've shared on, on the air before, when you were apart from God, you struggled with alcoholism and you tried taking an abuse, which is a medication that makes you sick for drinking alcohol, but it didn't. It may have helped
for a little while, but didn't stop you. You eventually went back to it or drank through it because the the root problem wasn't being addressed.
Perfect. Perfect. Thank you for reminding me of that. Because Antabuse was this. I don't even know if they still sell this stuff.
I think they do.
But I got a prescription. I think I had to get a prescription, I get a prescription for antabuse. And the goal of Antabuse is it makes you so sick if you drink that you don't want to drink. Well, it didn't stop me. It just snorted more cocaine to make the alcohol go down. That's a crazy maker, isn't it? But even when we are in Christ Jesus, it's easy to do, isn't it, sister? We can avoid the root issues.
Because the root issues are harder to deal with.
Much harder.
I mean, it's easy to look at and say, well, let's take an issue like lust. It's easy to just, well, I need to stop looking at those websites or, you know, whatever however you describe it, but not deal with the underlying issue that's driving you to that. That you're trying to find gratification or satisfaction apart from God.
And I mean, that can be painfully. That can sound like really painful. But if you can cross that threshold, we can all testify. Every one of us here, super die young Thunder Alley myself can testify. As tough as it is to look at those underlying issues, if you dare to cross that threshold and let God meet you there. Oh, baby, the payoff is so huge. Right, guys?
Come on.
And it's the only place where lasting victory can be found. It's the only place God wants you to handle the foundation of the problems. Because he wants to tackle. He wants to. You take out the bottom. And everything that's standing on top of it falls out. So if you take out the foundation of a sin issue, you take out the foundation of a hurt of a pain. Then everything that's been built on top of it can collapse. But if you take off the top, that top part can just come right back.
How great that our savior didn't say if you're if if the tree's not looking right. Really work on making the tree look right.
No.
What did he say? He said it's a root issue.
Yeah.
And God loves us enough. And here's what's great. Our God is way less condemning than the average parishioner you go to church with.
No doubt.
He wants to meet you. He wants to cry with you. He wants to man up with you. Man. I I'm this. This to me is. And I've said this before. This is the point. If if we have the courage to let God search the inner man and to help us discover why we do what we're doing, that's producing some fruit that's really not in keeping even what we with what we want. Katie, bar the door. Oh my goodness. This is the stuff right here.
It really is. And if you want to go a little bit deeper with this, explore this overarching sin versus underlying issue. I put together a quick graphic on Facebook, point you to our Facebook page, Carl and Crew Mornings. Check that out. You can download it. You can study it out. You can link to the book Killing Sin by Carl Claussen. That's the source here. So thanks, Carl, for letting us borrow this. This is this is good stuff.
Yeah. This is this is one of those moments when you're doing radio where you're like, this is the issue. If you want to go deeper, young Thunder, they can.
That's right. Just text the word conquer. You can get the whole book to text the word conquer to (800) 555-7898. That's for Carl's book. Kill, sin, conquer to 855 57898.