Coming to you from the Morning Star Mission sponsored studio. This is Carl and crew.
Mornings, helping you take your next step with Jesus. That's what we're all about here.
Ali, do you. Have you ever counted your steps? Have you ever worn some sort of a tracker?
It's funny that you say, oh, steps. I thought you were meaning steps with Jesus. Uh, yeah, I have. Do you still have your step tracker?
Oh, I do. And my daughter wears one, too. So she's always trying to compete with me.
That's great.
It's never even a competition. Mom, how are your steps doing? I'm somewhere around 3400. I have 11,000. It's always way more. So mom doesn't take nearly as many steps in a day as my active 13 year old.
All we need you to take today is one giant step.
Just one.
And we've got some content that will help you do that. Rise and shine. Everybody get a cup of coffee or tea, whatever it takes. But let's get rolling. So we've been talking faith and culture, and this has been some of the best content. I mean, I can't keep doing that. I can't.
Keep. I love it. If I had a dollar for every time we said a new.
Oh.
This has been my favorite week of all time next week. Hey, hey, I have some.
I have something in common with Jesus. We both use hyperbole. Can I blame it on Jesus? Can I blame it on Jesus? He used hyperbole. Can I use hyperbole?
Uh, you know what? I'll allow it. Of course you can.
No, I'm stretching a christocentric theology there that he used hyperbole for the purpose of describing things that were innately truthful. But in mine is not innately truthful, because you can't keep raising the bar. All right. I want to break down a Christian worldview. I've jotted down four things that are characteristic of a Christian worldview. Now let's. Okay. Christian worldview, let's be more accurate biblical worldview.
Okay.
Because you can get a little mushy on that one. God is creator and sovereign Lord. Humanity has fallen, but redeemable still. Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation, and a life of faith leads to transformation and purpose. Those are just a tread to crunch it down to four. That's four. Okay, so if that's a worldview, here's my concern with this. And I've been noodling on it all night.
Literally woke up in the middle of the night going home because I've been wrestling this week in a good way, not wrestling against God, but like, we've been going down a path together and Jesus has had his arm around my neck going. Listen up, kid. We're still growing up here.
But here's the cool thing about this I am convinced that we have so made Christianity transactional and not transformational in our culture today, that this can just become a list that people can ascend to, but never experience it. That's a problem man. Mhm. We got our guests groaning in the studio here which is a great sign.
Yeah. He's in agreement with.
I am thumbs up I am nodding I am getting very excited right now.
Yeah. So let's bring you in here Peter world Ali give the bio on this. He's more than a groaner and a firmer.
He is a moody professor. He's an associate professor here at Moody Bible Institute. Professor of educational ministry. We brought him in to talk about faith and culture, because he actually teaches a class here on faith and learning. So when he heard that this was our theme this week, he popped in the studio actually and said, hey guys, can we talk about this? Yeah. So yeah, he's he's giving you lots of affirmation this morning.
But that whole transactional versus transformational, Peter, that that can be a problem. And I wonder if, in fact, that's what happened with a lot of our kids growing up in the church for a long, long time is that they had a transaction mentally, but not a transformation. What do you say?
Oh, I've been thinking about this, actually. Um, just the the transactional nature of oh, we speak at camps and at the camp. We build up to a Thursday night, and on the Thursday night we lay out the gospel. But the gospel is get out of hell free. And and they're like, oh, I want to get out of hell free. And they, they say a prayer and then they think they're done and nothing changes. Nothing goes on. Whereas if a person is alienated from God, you want
them to have a relationship with God. And actually a lot of things that I have conversations with kids about, a lot of things I have conversations with people about the devil also believes, and so the devil believes that Jesus is the Son of God. The devil believes that Jesus came and died, and he's very upset that he rose from the dead and he's very up. But he
believes those things. And if it's just an idea of what do I understand, then you haven't got that relationship with Christ necessarily, because you have to have a dynamic relationship of loving the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and loving your neighbor as yourself. And that is something that actually I don't have. Now, let me explain that a little bit.
Yeah. Let's get some explanation here.
I love God more today than I ever have, but I don't love God with everything I've got all the time, everywhere. And I'm pushing on towards that and I'm pushing deeper. And it's a relationship that keeps growing and it keeps changing and it's dynamic. And some people, they're done with something that happened when they were seven and, and they, they just don't know God. And it's knowing God where the delight is.
Peter, do you mind if I jump in here for a second? I you know, as you're talking about this dynamic relationship and loving the Lord your God more every day, and loving your neighbor as yourself. Well, I think of that and I say, well, I don't do that perfectly. And and I think about the illusion of salvation that I had, you know, and so I can think of myself as a young Christian going, oh, that kind of makes me nervous. I don't love him perfectly every day.
Am I? Am I saved now because I love him really well? But when I don't love him really well, am I unsaved? You know, how does that how does that work?
Yeah, well, it depends who you're walking with. So who is the first person in your life who is the first person that you're following? Did you come to Jesus and say, he is my Lord and I am going to follow him, and I am going to walk with him? If he says, go to that building, I'm going to that building. If he says, go to that country, I'm going to that country. I'm submitted to him and I
live for Jesus. And I think, you know, how we can get into just the study of Jesus and we can pass tests on Jesus.
You know, I.
Know and I know, you know, and that's why I'm looking at you right now. Because I know you know. Because if you don't know Jesus, that's the whole crux of the gospel. Because you've got this personal relationship with Jesus that just excites you and sets you on fire. And I see fewer people in America who are on fire. And the religion of Christianity died in England a long
time ago, in a sense. I mean, I've heard you talking to England people, English people, and I'm being a little bit facetious, but the thing is that if we related the Jesus that we actually know, I think people would take our hands and they would hold his hand and we would introduce them and they would be excited and they would be actually set on fire.
You know, the Spirit of God might be, as a result of our interview with Peter here, just compelling you to come to Moody, and we're going to have a link for you. And we got a we got a Carl and crew, like, little special deal going on. So we'll tell you all about that coming up here in just a moment. But I want to. I've been noodling on something here. Ali. As a matter of fact, I was preaching on it. I called it three dramatic realities
of authentic salvation. One is we're overwhelmed with gratitude for God's grace. I see it everywhere in Scripture. Guys, you can't avoid it. Yeah. And my concern here is that we sometimes look at the disciples story, and we almost elevate them like they are something that we can only aspire to. Right. No. What? What? That's not biblical. That's not true. The woman at the well. The the the tax collector. Peter. Andrew, the list goes on and on.
There's something characteristically different about a life that has been transformed by God. And we live imperfectly. Yeah. But there is an underlying, even transcending personality. There's an underlying passion, then, to live with God?
Yes.
Well, that is undeniable.
I think that part of the thing that I'm wrestling with in the culture is people don't see that they're dead without Christ.
Yeah.
People don't see that. They. They have no life that's worth anything. People don't see that. They come from a worthless position. And if you come to God and you bring something and it's better than me. I mean, the people here in this room, I'm. I'm sure you've lived in your 20s and been a little bit better than me. Well, if you're better than me, that doesn't mean anything. Then in front of God. Because God is God and He is Almighty, and he is transcendent and he is perfect.
Now if you look at the disciples, the disciples would have known what sin was, and the disciples would have fallen off that, and they would have been like, I am a sinful person. And Jesus says, well, find God through me. They find God through him. And on Pentecost they get transformed. And in the book of acts, they're going out and telling everybody because they're excited. Because they all were to. God, they all were absolutely excited to
the point that they would die for this. They would die for it because they believed it so fervently.
Yeah.
Peter Worrell, right now associate professor here at Moody Bible Institute, we're talking faith, learning and a whole lot of extra. We're throwing in extra this morning on Freedom Friday, which I love.
So, Peter, let's boil this down. Coming up here in a few minutes, I want to boil this down to someone who's listening this morning and they say, man, I'm not overwhelmed by the gratitude of God's grace. Mhm. I'm I there isn't an underlying passion for God. Mhm. Uh what do they do. There's a growing imperative that we feel led by the Holy Spirit, that we help draw a very clear line about transactional faith on one side of that line, and transformative faith on the other side
of that line. And then even in this hour, we're going to talk about the three barriers that keep you from salvation. And then you actually know how to pray for people. It's all pretty cool. It all comes together when you look at God's Word with just an objective, humble heart. Hang on.
It's Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
We've already established that transactional faith is no faith at all. Transformative faith is is what Jesus aimed at. And it's the fruit, Peter, of authentic discipleship. And I want to go back to this. It seems like we've elevated the apostles and even that early church. But if you look at the book of acts, it wasn't just a few guys that were meeting together. They were meeting home to home. I mean, leaning into God at the cost of their own lives.
Oh yeah. Well, the Holy Spirit descends on the disciples and just transforms them and makes them different people. But if you see that, they're always kind of grasping. It struck me only after I studied at Moody because I studied at Moody, too. The transformational nature of what went on with the disciples. Because you've got people like Levi, the tax collector, he's swindling people. He's trying to make
a buck, and he's he's trying to. And then he just leaves it all and he starts to follow Jesus, and he starts to see what's Jesus about. Where's Jesus going? And he knows the person of Jesus. And then the Holy Spirit fills him. And you see, in the New Testament, Peter can't stop speaking about Jesus. Paul can't stop speaking about Jesus. They're absolutely transformed because the Holy Spirit sets people on fire. And it's the fire that I want
to see in a student's eyes. So when I'm at Moody and I'm teaching, I look around and there's some students who are just, you know, I got up, I got to your class, leave me alone. But there are many students who that fire begins to really catch. And I get so excited with them. And we have conversations and we're wrestling with things. And it's the fire that you see in, in the students because they want to know Jesus. It's about knowing a person, not just a concept.
It's about knowing a person relationally. And I get excited about that.
You know, when you talk about the fire, a lot of times people start to really look at what do I feel? Do I do I feel like I love Jesus today? Do I feel that fire? What do we what do you advise for the student who takes a lot of Bible classes? Or for our listener who maybe listens to a lot of Christian radio and podcasts and takes in sermons and starts to wonder, I don't I don't know if I feel the right things.
Yes, well, actually, it's what you think that leads to what you feel. So explain. In our society, we've got things backwards and we think, well, when I feel different, I'll think different. But actually when you study scripture things, things will leap off the page and you'll know something different and it'll excite you and you've got to tell somebody else. My wife also teaches here, so I love to tell her. She loves to tell me things. We
go back and forth and we get excited. So yes, being emotionally turned on to God is a thing, but it often comes through thinking different thoughts about God. So you have to be disciplined and you have to think and you have to wrestle. And when you wrestle, you get to know God. And when you know God, he
sets you on fire. I mean, I think there's something about a fire resting over the heads of the the early Christians in the New Testament in acts, because they they were set on fire by the God who they loved. And they began to serve him. But they knew so many things that they learned with Jesus, and then they were set on fire. So it's the knowledge first.
So, Peter, these four little anchors, I just whittled it down to these. God is the creator and sovereign Lord. Humanity is fallen but redeemable. Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation. A life of faith leads to transformation and purpose. We need to think deeply enough where those thoughts turn into what?
Well, you're thinking about them, and they can be on a test and and you could pass them on a test and then you'd be cold. But there's something about the God who in, in, uh, inhabits those ideas. Yes, God inhabits those ideas. And when you study them, you have to think, okay, how do I get to know the personal God who gave me this gift? How do I get to know the personal God who's running with
me and walking with me and leading me on. And this is the importance of Jesus, because Jesus shows us in Scripture what this God is like as a person and what he's like. Because the concept of God in the Old Testament is good and it's right, but it's God the Father, largely. And it's it's God the Father transcending reality. And you need to obey him and walk
with him, and that is good. But the excitement that comes through God, the the Son and God the Holy Spirit, the Trinitarian view of of the Godhead, it actually sets us on fire. And that's what I'm saying. It's a relational thing that inhabits it.
We've got Peter Wall with us right now, associate professor here at Moody Bible Institute. So when you see a student and you notice that they are taking in the information, they're going to class, they're showing up, but you don't see that fire.
Mhm.
They're passing the test. What do you do as a professor. I'm curious. Do you I mean give us a window into when you see a student. And, you know, I know Jonathan was a student here and he can relate to this when you when you observe that happening in a student that you have enough of a relationship with, that you feel like you can have a conversation. Yes. What do you what do you do?
Well, I don't always have enough of a relationship because it's a class scenario. Sure. But what happens is I'll see people discussing and some students just 1 or 2 in the class, though. So it's a class of 35 students, and there may be 1 or 2 who are done with the discussion early because they want to get it done. And I'll just move over and I'll say, so what are you thinking then? Oh, well, I think this, this, this. But do you, you know, are you thinking in a
relational sense, are you actually moving towards God? One of the things that really sets me on fire is the other side of the coin, where you have students who the spark catches and they begin to be enthusiastic. I get to meet them for lunch. I get to I have the students round to my house. I, I have those kinds of things going on which are relational. Can't force a relationship on people, right? But when I say I'm following Jesus, so come and follow and walk with
me as I follow Jesus. It's not a it's not a case of following me. It's a case of following me, following Jesus. And they will have conversations with me, and we will get excited about Jesus, and we will find that we're up until late at night talking about Jesus. But you've got to try to set it on fire. And so in the classroom, I'll just move alongside somebody and say, so what do you think? How's it going? What are you thinking about?
You know, I feel compelled here that there is someone listening and maybe far more than one, because Jonathan's story, the short of it is he was at Moody Bible Institute and he was passing tests with pretty good grades, but he wasn't born again. And that isn't a one off. Folks. To be overwhelmed with God's gratitude, or the gratitude that you can have in his grace to be imperfect but have a deep seated passion for God. If that's absent, could the Holy Spirit be calling you to follow Jesus
today for the very first time? And the answer is absolutely.
Amen.
And I just want to appeal to you right now to surrender your life to Jesus. The Apostle Paul said, I beg you, be reconciled to God. And why would he urge that? Because he's urging people to get over the speed bump of religiosity and pride and self-will, and the Holy Spirit can use our time this morning to convict you and to compel you to surrender your life to Jesus today. And I want to ask you, have
you been stuck in a transactional relationship with God? But the Holy Spirit right now has revealed you need transformation. I want you to just take a moment. If you're at home or driving, you can do this. I want you to bow your heart with me. I want you to bow your heart. Heads are optional, but I want you to receive Jesus today. So let me tell you what we find in Scripture. There needs to be a full throated confession and agreement with God that you're a
sinner who needs a Savior. That God is sovereign over all things. That Jesus is the only way to not only eternal life, but life abundant today. And that he alone can change you in this new relationship with God. And if you're willing to confess with your mouth, speak it out. I'm a sinner. Say it right now. Wherever you are. I'm a sinner. I need a savior. Today, I don't want to have a transactional faith with God
any longer. Today, for the first time in my life, I'm feeling the embrace and the love of Jesus Christ. I'm feeling the tug of the Holy Spirit dragging me across this threshold of pride and religiosity and self-will. And today I'm following Christ, which means that you repent. You turn around, away from all of your thinking into a relationship with Jesus. And if that's you today, your heart has cried the most honest prayer to God, the most honest prayer. And I want you to get your phone ready.
I'm going to pray for you right now, but Ali is going to give you a link here in just a moment. But today, I want you to know that we are going to help you take your first steps with Jesus. I want to appeal to you, friend. Don't let the pride of your religiosity in your behavior and your comparison hold you back from life eternal and life today. So let me pray with you. Let's codify this with the Lord Jesus. Today I confess to you you are the Savior of the world and I needed it. Just
tell him that I needed it. I thank you that you saw my sin and all my flaws. But you haven't rejected me. You've embraced me. So I come to you today for the first time, authentically in my life, moving past transaction into transformation. Today I surrender my life to you Fully, completely. Nothing held back. And Lord, I pray over this person right now who is turning around surrendering all to Jesus Christ. That your love would wash over them in ways that would be. Inestimable. That you, Lord,
would show them this whole new world. You've done it right now you're doing it, Lord. And I give you praise in Jesus name. Amen. Amen. Ali, just from your heart. We want to help him, don't we?
We do. We have something that we've put together. It's a resource just for you. Those of you who are accepting Jesus, you are turning and going a new direction with him. Just text the word new to 800 555 7898. Text new to 800 (800) 555-7898. You're going to get from us an auto reply that's going to have a link with some hyperlinks embedded. Go through it carefully. It's going to coach you up on what do I look for in a church if you don't already have one? What
kind of Bible should I be reading? Is there a translation that I should look for? Uh, we also an opportunity to get a resource from us sent directly to your house that's going to help and encourage you. So if today that's you, just text new to (800) 555-7898 new new to 800 555 7898.
Your shot of hope to help you through the day. This is Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
So if we take three dramatic realities of authentic salvation, which are we're overwhelmed with gratitude for God's grace. We live imperfectly. But there's an underlying passion for God. And by the way, one that we hadn't even hit this morning because we got sometimes too much content here. But let me just lay it out right now. We care for people's souls more than their behaviors. That's a big one, by the way.
A gigantic one.
Yeah, we need that on a shirt.
Yeah. I mean, because. And this is most lethal with parents. Okay. You you want your kids so much to know God and. Right. I mean, come on, if you've been born again, you want your kids to know God. Yes. They're pretty quick. You'll start looking for behaviors to validate your passion.
Yeah.
And that can be tough. So yes, Jesus is clear, by the way, a lot of people say we're not called to be fruit inspectors. I couldn't disagree more. We actually are called to be fruit inspectors.
What do you mean by that? Someone who's hearing that for the first time?
Well, that's that's a common term from ages ago. I remember probably 30 years ago, people were saying, we're not called to be fruit inspectors. I would say a tweak on that. We're not called to be fruit scrutinizers. But Jesus himself said, you can tell. You can tell what a tree is, because a good a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. So we and we see the fruit of the spirit
in Galatians five. In fact, we're supposed to be looking at our own lives, going, oh wow, I got deeds of the flesh coming off my branches, not fruit of the spirit. I need to abide in my relationship with Jesus more and let the Holy Spirit flow through me. So we don't want to. I would say this. You do want to be able to look at your children's behavior, but not through the lens of scrutiny for judgment, and especially not for the purpose of finding validation for yourself.
That's where it gets kind of sticky. You're looking for evidence that my kids are okay. A greater prayer is God, give me evidence that their souls okay, not that they're okay. Yes. I tell parents this all the time. Don't pray that your kids get back in church. Pray that they get in Christ and that they can't stay away from church because darken the door of a church might be good, but it might not.
Yeah, there there are things that and I think that's where we need to understand what fruits of the spirit are. Uh, nowhere in in the Scripture does it say that the fruit of the spirit is church attendance. You know, and and so we can't say that that church attendance is this is this clear indication that that our kids know God, but love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control,
those things show that's a fruit of the spirit. My kid knows Jesus because I see what God's doing in them through those things. Not through church attendance. Or they went on a ministry trip last summer or those kinds of things.
Yeah, and that's tough to hear. But here's here's what I'm saying. I know you love your kids enough that you want to pray rightly for them, and I know that about you and grandkids. I know that. I mean, I was talking with Howie Rosin, 95 years old, my uncle, he's in Clovis, California, in an assisted living home. I said, how you doing, Howie? For 95, Carl ain't doing too bad. I'm actually doing pretty well. Pretty well.
Here. I love that answer. Wow.
But he's, you know, one of his greatest joys. He said, my son is finally following Jesus Christ. I said, how'd that happen? He said the prayers of my bride that went home to be with the Lord. My aunt Barb, um, two years ago. He said her prayers got him around the corner. He said I know it said I'd hear Barb praying morning, noon and night. Prayer. Boy, isn't that cool?
That's emotional man. That's emotional.
So here's I'm going to coming up here. Do we have time for this guys.
Yeah, yeah, we got time.
Well, cram it in. Uh, three. The three barriers of salvation. When you hear these biblical barriers, then these biblical barriers, then you will know how to pray rightly. This is just right from the word. Hang on. Great thing about God's Word is that it is so clear. And I want to give you the three barriers to salvation as I see it through Scripture. I'm not saying it's absolutely limited to these, but these are three big buckets that
are barriers to salvation, that are explicit in Scripture. And if you understand these barriers, then you can pray rightly. And that's the cool thing, right, Ali? Because we go to God for this anyway.
It's not us changing ourselves or anyone else.
Oh, and praise God for that. If this is on me, we're toast.
Yeah.
Toast. A terrific man. It ain't going to change diddly. Okay. The three barriers to salvation. Number one rebellion. Now, this is going to surprise you. Romans one, check this out. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. Suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has
shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world in the things that have been made. My granddaughter's little precious fingers in her eyes. Oh my goodness, there's a God. So they are without excuse. But look at verse 21. Romans 121. Always look at this verse. For although they knew God, so we sometimes ask, do you know God? Well, there's a depth of knowledge
that is not going to change lives here. For they knew God. They did not honor him as God or give thanks to him. But they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Rebellion is this. It's staring the truth right in front of your face. And your heart stays hard and your fist goes up in the air. In essence, your fist goes up in the air and says, I'm not going your way. Oh, and
we know that. We know that happens. We've all met people that have been in rebellion and in in true spiritual terms, we were all born with our backs to God, walk in our own way down this broad path, and by his grace alone, he softens those hearts. Let me go to barrier number two. It's blindness. Barrier number two
is blindness. In Second Corinthians four three through four. And even if our gospel Paul writes to the Corinthian church is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in their case, the God of this world, that Satan and his demonic forces has blinded the minds of the unbelievers to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. And my contention here is that what Satan does is he creates spiritual light pollution that keeps us
from seeing who Jesus is. He gets us so busy with this light pollution here horizontally that we can't see what's going on vertically. The third one is deception. It's out of Matthew seven. Many will say on that day. Didn't I prophesy, baptize, do mighty works in your name? And he's going to say, I never knew you. Here's how I want you to pray and think about this. Pray for those with hard hearts that they would be softened and that their fists would come down and they
would receive Jesus. Pray for the blind, that the veil of darkness would be removed, and the light pollution of this world would fade away. And pray for those in deception that they would see. All the spiritual activity in the world cannot save them, but Jesus alone can. You know, on this Freedom Friday, it is an awesome thing to hear stories of life change in you. And the boom
crew are awesome for that. But we wanted to take the power of God to change our lives and bring two people together who otherwise were on the skids and go, uh uh, God's not done with you. His arm can reach you. And some of you, if we talk about it long enough, you'll be crying. But I need you to know something. Help is on the way, and God can do more in the 11th hour than you can in the prior ten. Ron and Jody. Zapier with us right now. And boy, you guys believe that, don't you?
I'm telling you, man, we don't believe it, Carl. And you know us. We've known each other for a long time. We've experienced it and are still experiencing the life changing power of the gospel.
Thankfully, Ron and Jody are with us right now. Ron is the founding and lead pastor of High Point Church, which is a multi-site church in the Chicagoland area celebrating their 25th anniversary, and his lovely wife, Jody. Join us this morning for Freedom Friday.
Hey, I'm just so glad we planted the church coming out of eighth grade, so that's the nice thing about it.
Well, I won't say how old he is, but he is getting AARP material sent to his home address, I guarantee you that. All right, so let's have some fun here. Jody, I'm going to have you tell on Ron and yourself in a healthy way on this Freedom Friday. A lot of people find themselves in a marriage where it's like, oh, and maybe they're religious, or maybe they they just need to know the power of God to save a soul and to save a marriage. Jody, I'm going to give you the floor. Tell us the story.
All right. Well, we were, um, you know, high school sweethearts. Had been friends since we'd been 15 years old. And finally, you know, had a long distance relationship in college and then even after college. And, you know, some of these things contributed to us having, um, what I would say is, you know, extremely difficult first year in marriage. And it kind of surprised us. You know, we were building on friendship, and we thought friendship was a solid foundation to build
a marriage on. And it is a great thing. And it has helped us, however, that got tested in year one. And when I came home early from a work commitment and walked into kind of, um, the worst nightmare I could have imagined, and Ron was there. There was another woman. And all that to say is I was obviously really devastated. And we ended up, um, I talked to my sister and I said, hey, isn't this grounds for divorce? I'm
pretty sure it is. And just, you know, our background had been both of us in a different traditional churches. So we both would have said we believed in God, but we didn't know God. So, uh, what happened next is we ended up going into, um, my sister said, hey, you know, yeah, you should get counseling before you do that, you know, before you get divorced. It's a really big decision.
So I, I walked over to a church, and I purposely waited for church to be over because I was just going to go there to see if I could get counseling. And so I ended up bumping into a woman. First time I had to verbalize. It's literally the next morning what was going on. And I said, you know, I need to find out if I have grounds for divorce. and she could see that I was troubled. I probably
started crying. And then she immediately tears in her eyes and she said, you know, my husband, he was a failure, too. And Ron.
Always.
That's what we all are, Carl, I just you just got to be honest with ourselves.
I'm the. I'm the amen choir. All right, Jodi, keep it going.
So she starts off with that, and then she said, interestingly enough, they had had a marriage ministry going that met on Monday night. So the very next day I went there, Ron kind of asked if he could come along, and I was like, well, sure, you know. So we went to this thing. It was a very large group gathering 500 people. And then, um, I had written in my Franklin planner that by Thursday I needed to make
a decision about a divorce. So I end up calling the church to see if I could get an appointment, because I didn't feel like I was getting the answer to my question. So I just said, well, hey, I need to make a decision by Thursday, and they ended up making an exception and let Ron and I come in, and from there the pastor said, hey, we can talk about the mess you're in, or we can talk about
God's plan for marriage. You know, we kind of looked at each other and the way the question was asked, like, I doubt you're going to get a lot out of the mess we're in. You know, so we're like, well, okay. And then but we did. We ended up getting into that because he clearly, you know, he said, well, I got 45 minutes. He set the timer and we just started meeting. And what happened then was Ron immediately was broken.
Visibly broken. That pastor to this day would say he had counseled lots of couples, and he felt like he actually witnessed Ron's genuine repentance right in that office.
Wow. Awesome.
Me, on the other hand, I was I was actually the harder person because Ron's heart was broken and he was very aware of his condition. You know, that he was in a that it was a sin issue. I, on the other hand, wanted to just kind of keep the spotlight on that, on Ron. And again, I went there honestly thinking I was just going to get some sort of like, okay, to get a divorce because I didn't know how to get divorced. So he ended up then from then on, kept putting that spotlight on me
and asking me lots of questions. And really, what ended up happening? I recognized quickly, okay, I know what you're getting at and I have sin in my life, and I did. And I was very aware of it, you know. But I said I just didn't really want to talk about it today. And, um, but had he not delved in, you know, I appeared to be the victim here. And had he gone easy on me, what would have happened then in those last ten minutes is Ron would have
left saved. He would have left with an actual relationship with Christ, and I would have left hard hearted the way I came in. So he broke me and. But I needed to be broken. And what happened then is we just met basically at the foot of the cross. And then in the last five minutes we prayed a genuine.
He led us in a genuine prayer of repentance. I knew the little piece of faith that I needed was I'd known that, you know, Jesus was God's Son, and I knew that there was like the Trinity, father, son, Holy Spirit. But I didn't really fully understand that Jesus was God like Emmanuel, God with us, and that that was God's blood shed on the cross for me. Wow. And that it was shed for my specific sins that this guy just made me, you know, think about and confess.
So we basically met at the foot of the cross where the ground was even. And that was important because I kind of also thought certain sins were much worse than others. So that was it. We walked out that day knowing for the first time we were forgiven.
Wow. Wow.
Ron and Jody Zappia our guests. Right now, Ron is the founding lead pastor of High Point Church. They also have a book, The Marriage Knot Seven Choices That keep couples together. Ron, want to bring your voice in here? You came to repentance quickly. Would you say that when you talk about coming to the end of yourself when you were caught and you realized the gravity of what you had done? Did repentance come easily or was there any sort of resistance?
You know, I think for me, I was I had to be broken and I had to be cut down at the knees. I didn't have God in my life. I wasn't a Christian, wasn't brought up in it. And, you know, that was the first time I realized, and this is going to sound awful, Ali. But it wasn't just that I sinned against Jodi and that I caused so much hurt, but that's the first time that I
recognized that I sinned against God. And just like David says in Psalm 51, when he said, against you, and you have I, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight? I recognize for the first time, yes, my sin and all of our sin. Everybody who's listening, our sin causes damages to the people around us, but it had caused damage to God and I didn't recognize that. And that was the first time that came into realization. And so I walked out of that office as Jody said, man,
I'm telling you, I felt the forgiveness. And I know many of our listeners that you you know what I'm talking about, that forgiveness of Christ and that fresh start. And we didn't know what was going to happen with the marriage. I mean, you know, like, but we had just been reconciled to God and now it was on us. Are we going to do some things? Are we going to let God's power and the power of the gospel reconcile us to each other? And that's the most difficult part.
We meet with couples now. And, you know, we tell our story and we provide hope. But if we don't have two soft hearts ready to look at each other, examine themselves, and really take ownership for their part in the marriage breakdown, and that's a big statement. Each of us has to take ownership. If we don't have that, then we won't find the reconciliation that I know God desires coming up.
You know, we're going to be promoting a book here that Ron and Jody have. That's powerful work. But we also want to tell you where we go from here. So coming up, Ron and Jody Zappia talking about those first days of digging out, because it's those first days, it's those baby steps that change everything. Hang on.
This is Carl and crew on Moody Radio.
With us right now. Ron and Jody Zappia. A story of radical transformation. If you did not hear the first portion of this interview, you must go back and get it. I'm asking you right now to text the word show to 800, 555, 78, 98. If you didn't hear this first part, you got to get it 805, 55, 78, 98 just text the word show to that number and you're going to have it. All right guys, let's pick it up here. You're freshly broke and God has transformed
your heart in a counseling session. And it was really the counsel of the spirit that spoke through this gentleman. And the Spirit of God convicted. The Spirit of God called the Spirit of God did it all. You. You really didn't bring anything to the party except a broken heart, right, guys?
That's exactly true. I mean, we had first recognized, I mean, that man, my sin had brought this on, and I had was losing the best thing that I ever had. I mean, you know, we weren't Christians. We weren't following after God. We didn't have the truth. And the next thing I knew, my behavior, uh, had had really crushed the relationship. And so it would have been easy for us to throw up our hands. And I know it's true for many couples, you know, it's like, hey, we
had just been married. It was just a year. We didn't have any kids. You know, we were in a new town here in the Chicagoland area. Yeah. Carl, you know what? We had to take some baby steps. I mean, honestly, you know, we didn't know what was going to happen to the marriage. We knew that. You know what? We had just been reconciled to God. We had experienced forgiveness firsthand. And now it was about, where are we going to put our faith into action? And I think that's the
key for many people. We try to fix everything ourselves. And for us, it was like we knew we couldn't fix it. I couldn't fix myself. I couldn't change the behavior that had been exhibited for years. Jody had to forgive me. So Jody had to forgive and I had to start living the truth. And so, you know, honestly, Carl, I wish I could say I did some great things, but I had to come to terms with who I
really was. Next thing I knew, God started to change some things in me that I couldn't change in myself. And that was the key. And I think, Jody, you recognize some of that change. So those are the baby steps that we took. Forgiveness was number one.
That's big. You know what? I want to kick it to you, Jody, because a lot of those first steps out of this obviously have been embedded in the book that you and Ron wrote together. But from your perspective, what were some of those first? This is deep soul work that God does, right, Jody?
Yeah. And, um, first question I get asked at this point is, you know, how did you forgive? And I would say the truth was I mentioned I had just been forgiven also. And Ron was right there, and I knew that I knew something had happened and that really brief period of time. But I knew it was real, and I knew I was forgiven. And that in and
of that, I knew then I needed to forgive. And I knew that because I had come across a verse once back in the day when I would just flip my Bible open looking for an answer to something, right. And one time I remember it said, hey, unless you forgive your brother, you will not be forgiven. Then I would probably close my Bible like, uh oh, I'm in trouble. But I knew there was something to that. And I knew that in the same way I had just been forgiven.
I could forgive Ron because I knew God had just forgiven him, too. so I knew that. But my bigger issue and I can remember even asking the pastor and saying, hey, I know I need to forgive Ron. I think I can do that, but I don't have to stay married, do I? Because the bigger issue to me, I said, how can you possibly have a marriage when there is zero trust? And so trust had been thrown out the window. So for me, it was funny because he asked me, oh,
that's interesting. He said, Does the Bible say trust one another? And I didn't really know the Bible, but that did not sound right. I said no. He said, you're right. Any ideas why it might say that? And I said, probably because we're not trustworthy. And he's like, that's right. You know, and then he said, what does the Bible say that we're supposed to do to one another and said, love. And he said, that's right. He said, God's not asking you to trust Ron. He's asking you to love Ron.
And what was interesting about that is it was very freeing just hearing that. It made sense and it took this huge pressure off me because the choice to forgive was like a moment in time. Like I could choose to forgive. But the process of forgiving is the part that takes a little longer. And so then that kicked in following all that. But the only way to do that was I had to trust God. I had to
trust God with Ron. Like I had to fully release Ron and his offense like what he had done to God, and trust God with that, and trust that God was going to take care of me. Whatever happened, whether the marriage worked out or not. And so I left that day knowing, hey, trust God, love Ron, trust God. And then I had to try to figure out what does that mean practically?
This is so beautiful. I'll tell you what's powerful about this conversation we're having, guys, is that we haven't even gotten into the book. But here's what I want to spike. Boom crew. Here's here's what I want to spike. The beauty of this is, if people have gone through this dark night of the soul crisis, we're up against it. And out of our brokenness, we found God. Those are the people you need to listen to. We're not professionals. We're all in recovery. No one's arrived.
That's right.
We're all there. So I want you, Ron. Give us the book and what's behind it.
So, you know, this is the thing. And the reason, you know, we wrote the book was because our story, you know, was such and where we needed to be restored. And so we believe that all marriages need to be enriched and some marriages need to be restored. And so really what happened was we started taking small steps, baby steps of faith, where we would just actually, literally do what the Bible says in regards to treating each other in a way that was honoring to put God at
the center of your marriage. And so that's what the book is. The book is seven choices that keep couples together. And so whether you are looking for enrichment, you're looking for restoration. These are the steps that you need to take. And so I wish it was some profound thing. It was like, no, they're just biblical steps. Like choosing to grow spiritually and choosing to love unconditionally and serve sacrificially. I mean, you know, the list goes on and on.
Communicate respectfully. I mean, these are biblical choices that oftentimes we don't take seriously. And, you know, maybe somebody's listening and they're like, man, you know, I don't have that much of a problem. Well that's good. But a lot of us do. But all of us trust is broken in marriage, and we need to rebuild trust.
Yes.
And it takes you know, we teach this equation. It's cb over t CB is for changed behavior over time. And so you got to have change behavior. And that only happens through repentance and a relationship with God that you can truly change. And then time it takes time. You know in our situation with our story. Fortunately this hadn't gone on for a long time, so it didn't
take as long for us to come back together. And I think that's where couples are having trouble, is that they need to own each part of the breakdown and that change behavior over time. Trust in the Lord. I mean, he can reconcile anything. I know you believe that, and I know we've experienced stories of people who have seen it. And so, um, you know, really it's just the choices that you choose in the daily life of, are you going to honor God and are you going to honor
each other? And those are the things that are most important.
The name of the book is The Marriage Knot. So here's our key word. And I know we're going to get crushed with text messages. So get your phone handy. Here's what I want you to do. Text the word knot with a k k n o t as in the marriage knot. Text not k o t to 800 555 7898. 98. Text not to 800 555 7898 and God's going to meet you here. I don't care how far you've gone, God's arm is not too short, and if you can fog a mirror, God can change your life and your marriage. Text not not to 800 555 7898.
Thanks you guys, for being with us today. You want those words to be a living reality in your life? That's Cochran and company running home. Everything changed when I came running home. What does that reference to? Probably the parable of the wayward sons. One squandered his dad's inheritance, went off to a distant country. It would have been representative. When Jesus was telling this story, everybody would have thought, oh yeah, okay, it's a kid that goes off to
Antioch and he's partying down, man. Multicultural metroplex of the Middle East of that day. And he got in a mess. Man. it didn't mean that he wasn't aware of, because the parable is a relationship with all of God's creation that sees him. They understand how rich they can be in him, but they go squander that very real inheritance. Now it's a story of lostness being lost and far from God. And there's two sons in this story I want to tell you about them. The first one. Yeah, it's very
easy to spot him. He's a victim of trying to find life in anything. He can get something to fill that void. He's a troubled kid, and he came home. And what's interesting about this, he got a wayward kid. I want you to do this. That kid. If they've never known how much you love them and how much you want for them, be sure they know that. Send a message to a far off land, wherever that kid ran off to, spiritually speaking. Here, of course. Could be in the same town with you. Could be right down
the street but far from God. Let them know how much they you love them. But then you know what? Sometimes you gotta let them fall into the pig slop, man. Because just like you, in order to be born again, they gotta come to the end of themselves. And that son did. And he came staggering home. And dad must have gotten word because he's at the top of the pick and parking space right there at the end of the road. Right? It is.
So to speak.
Yeah, but he's standing right there in the driveway and he's looking down that long road. And here he sees his son. He can't take it anymore. He's like, he's he's back. I'm not enabling. This is this is helping. So he sprints down there and he grabs his son. And those guys embraced and they hugged. And the son's crying. Dad's crying the whole deal. He says get a robe, get a ring, get some sandals. Kill the fatted calf. He goes, this guy, Man, he doesn't even have shoes.
It's amazing when we're far from God and he's calling us to himself. We realize I got nothing. I had or I have everything, but I've got nothing. And there's another son. And both of them are lost sons. Both of them. The other one stayed on the. He stayed on the compound. He heard word that his wayward brother was back. And he's like, what's going on? Why is the big what's the big celebration? What's going on? He goes, oh, man, your brother came home really great. That guy was always squirrelly.
Now they're throwing a party for him. Dad comes out of the party and says, hey, come on into the party. He goes, hey, come on. I've been sitting here jumping through every hoop you've ever had for me and you've never given me any kind of a celebration like this. He said, listen, this, this brother of yours was he was lost, but he's been found. My son came home. Both of these young men are pictures of lostness. One a victim of his passion, the other a victim of
his pride. Both totally missing it with God. That was the audience Jesus had then. That's the audience we have now. There's two things that keep you from God. Victim of your passion and a victim of your pride. And I'm asking you to humble yourself under God's mighty hand today and come home to Jesus for the first time in your life. Oh, I, I get it. You've been in church, I get it. You've been jumping through all the hoops. Yep, I get it. But you don't know Jesus personally. You're
not born again. That's a problem, man. that's a problem. Do you know what really born again people do when wayward sons come back from the far off antics of the day. They celebrate because they're already in the celebration. They're there. And whether you're a victim of your passion or a victim of your pride, I'm asking you to repent. Turn around, come home or come into the party. Don't let pride or passion hold you back from life found in Jesus Christ. It ain't worth it, friend. I tried,
it doesn't work. So are you a victim of your passion? You've been trying to find life in all the things that you could get. How's that working for you? Yeah, that's what I thought. It's not working. It's good when you can be honest with God and honest with yourself. Oh. That's good. Maybe you're a victim of your pride. You can't even say it. But you feel it. It's like,
why isn't why aren't things going better for me? I've been doing all this and this and this, and I've been very religious, and I've been moral and I've been this and fill in the blank. Right. It's because what Jesus said is true. You must be born again. When the lost are found, it is amazing. Some of you have been so close to Jesus, but so far away. And today I'm inviting all of you to come on home. I want you to run to win. And you can only run to win when you get off the broad
path that leads to destruction. And passion and pride are the two main appetites down that broad path. It's not filling you up, is it? Leaving you empty. Today is the day of salvation for you. Yes, it's for you. Say. All right, Carl, what do I gotta do? Gotta turn around. You gotta repent. You gotta surrender all your pride and all your passions. And say I'm done running from God. I'm done trying to perform for God. It's recognizing that you are missing the mark in your life. And you're
just exhausted enough to say, ah, I'm done. And right now, if that's you, please don't let pride of all of what you've done in this life hold you back. Don't let the exhaustion of chasing passions think, oh, should I chase one more thing? His name is Jesus and he's running down the path to greet you. He's stepping out in the fields where you've been laboring, thinking you're doing so well. Oh, I'm so. I'm working so hard for God. I'm being so moral. And he's saying, stop this game.
Give your life to me today. Turn around. Repent. And this is what you need to do right now. This is it. Are you willing to acknowledge? I'm going to ask you three questions. Are you willing to acknowledge you're a sinner who needs a savior? Yes. Good. Good. Are you at the end of yourself? And you can't do it. And you know it. All the passions you've been chasing. All the prideful moves that you've been making. It doesn't add up to anything. That's a scary place to be.
If not for the love of Jesus. It says, come to me. Come on into the party. And that's what Jesus is saying to you right now. Come on into the party. Come on in. So my third question is the big one. Are you ready to repent? Turn around and head home. You know what's going to happen the minute you turn around? The arms of God are right there. Boom, boom. And you're feeling them right now. Because, see, salvation is by faith. And that not of yourselves. It's not fancy words.
It's not a slick prayer. It's a heart surrendered to Jesus Christ and Him alone. He's coming back again one day. And because of what God's doing in your life today, you're going to go with them. You won't be left behind. So if that's you, I want you to get your phone out right now. I'm going to tell you where to go. We want to help you in your first steps of Jesus. I want you to text right now the word new to our number right now. Get your phone out. Let's go. If this is you, you really.
All that you've got to know right now is that you are repenting of your sin. You don't need to know your next steps. Jesus will help you with that. By the power of the spirit and the love of the father. He's going to help you with that, and we're going to help you as well. But get that phone. You got it. Okay, here's what I want you to do. I want you to text the word new right now to our number here. New to 800 555 7898. I'll say that slowly. Text new. Just one word to 800
Five five, five, 78, 98. It's all I want you to text. It's just that one word and we're going to send you a link. And this is really cool. It's got three embedded links in it. It's how to find a church with people that are just like me. Awesome. It's going to tell you how to find a Bible that you can actually understand. Awesome. And we're going to get your snail mail. We're going to send you one
thing in snail mail. That's it, a resource that's going to help you as you walk in the power of God, to resist any temptation to try to do this walk of faith in your own strength. Because self-help never helped anyone but God can. So I want you to text the word new right now. Wherever you are, just text the word new to 800 555. 78. 98.