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welcome back to just start the tape your favorite unofficial rewatch podcast for amc's interview with the vampire i'm your host bobby miller and i am joined by my absolutely lovely co-host kelly boyle hi And Cam Ryan. Hello. So if you know what episode we're on, which is episode five of season one, you know that this is a bit of a heavier.

episode so we're going to be a little bit lighter on on the banter and the jokes and i just want to throw out kind of a trigger warning because there will be discussions of domestic violence and sexual assault we are not going to go too too heavy into everything just more kind of our experience

watching this episode, any revelations that we had, but just wanted to throw that out there as well as towards the end of the episode, we'll be throwing out some resources and linking them in the description. just you know in case you need them but without further ado i guess we should just jump in to episode five we open on a shot of louis drinking from

Rashid, while Daniel is reading Claudia's diaries after in the aftermath of Charlie's death. And this is very Important, I think, in the grand scheme of this episode to have Louis drinking very sensuously from Rashid. And all I wrote down for this part is these fucking freaks. It's a very interesting dichotomy of this episode to have what happens and it happened, but also open with this very intimate thing that's happening for Daniel to.

to witness while reading Claudia's diaries. Yeah. And it's also the second consecutive episode with an overtly sexual opening featuring Rashid. yeah like in episode four it opened with um well the first thing we saw of rashid in the first scene was him with that deep v you know and like all of a sudden we were like wow slutty shirt And now this episode opens with Rashid Armand staring Daniel down as Louis drinks from him. And of course it's meant to like.

keep up the facade of rashid being a human you know but um it's like some wild voyeurism that's going on here because of course like as we know this is armand they are in a romantic relationship This is akin to them having sex in front of Daniel. And while reading Claudia's diaries out loud. Nasty. And now I don't think.

Yeah, it's nasty. It's sexual. It's so sexual. It's so weird. They are basically having sex in front of him. And I'm just like, this is insane. I've always, that opening never ceases to amaze me and shock me. yeah it made me feel deeply uncomfortable especially because also the claudia it's not even her diaries it's like the last words that she was writing down of all of her victims so i feel like that's like an extra layer of darkness like this is like

When she was really going through it, like the last time we see her is like the kind of breakdown in the last episode. And then you have this being like, I just think she should be treated as like a holy object. And then like Louis doing this with Armand while she's like. has a presence in the scene i was just like i don't like that one bit it made me very uncomfortable um or it's like talking about her too and it's like or was she like keep your mouth shut

Get out of here. Literally keep her name out of your mouth. Yeah, seriously. She's got to die a little. It's like, it's interesting. Having Louis and Armand Rashid doing this while reading those specific pages of Claudia's diary is interesting because...

Daniel's reading, like you said, the last words of her victims. This opening scene is about establishing that Claudia doesn't care about humans anymore. And so she's like writing down their last words because she's stripped herself of all care for their humanity. And yeah.

Louis and Rashid Armand don't care about humanity at all right now either. You know, they're just like, yeah, we're going to do whatever we want. We don't care about the feelings or the comfort of this human in front of us. So it's kind of they're both doing the same thing here.

you know yeah not the same but you know like it's the sentiment is the same they don't care about the human pov right now um and i also just want to know like what happened in the seconds leading up to this like did rasheed walk in and they're like he's gonna drink from me now are you cool with that or like there or did he just like sit down and louis started you know because like

yeah it's not like yeah it's like daniel are you cool with this did they ask for his opinion on this before they just concerned but i don't think they did they probably didn't but yeah it's interesting that like at this point in the story Because we've talked about like off air kind of what's happening with Louis around this time. Of course, this is like.

pre all of the revelations that we get in season two. But it's interesting to think about, and I think they sprinkle this in at other points in the episode, where you can tell that Louis is deeply unhappy. It's very interesting that Arman Rashid, whatever, brings up like this book is like a suicide.

note essentially like he is inviting the vampire coral to come after him like he is this is a death note like so like you know have some respect or whatever but it is signaling that louis is very very not Well, like I think he's writing, like you said, he was writing down his last words in a way. And so that even signals kind of like where we're trending towards with everything that comes to fruition in season two. So very interesting.

Yeah. And I actually don't think that that's what Louis thinks he's doing. I think that that's Armand's perspective. I think that Armand thinks that a suicide is being chronicled before it happens. I think that's Armand fearing history repeating itself because the last time Daniel was around, Louis attempted suicide. And he is planning to expose their vampire nature through this book.

armand saying you're chronicling a suicide i think that's armand's perspective of what this interview is and that's like why he was hesitant to do it and also because of claudia reasons right like that's like the real reason that he wants to control this interview but um This is also the first scene where we hear Armand say, I care for him more than he cares for himself, which is obviously going to be a huge thing in season two. And.

it's like no you don't louis can take care of himself just fine um louis literally cuts him off like he says that you're giving unsolicited opinions here um it's just yeah it's telling about their relationship like louis doesn't agree with him you know what i mean and um yeah i don't think that louis sees this as um

chronicling his death i think he knows that it's dangerous what he's doing but that's not even like top of mind for him and i think that this whole interview is really um with like knowing the season two context and um knowing Jacob Anderson's perspective and interviews that he's shared about this whole concept. It's at the time of recording this episode.

I interviewed Jacob Anderson yesterday. So this is very top of mind for me because we did talk about this subject and he, that interview will be out by the time this episode comes out. So I'm fine with talking about it here, but he said something really interesting about how. Louis is he reaches out for help from Daniel to make sense of.

the last 50 years of his life, you know, because he can sense that something is not right. He can sense that he's missing something. And this is not something that Roland Jones ever confirmed to him. Jacob made a point of saying like, Roland won't tell me. what the inciting incident for Louis calling Daniel specifically for this was I think that Roland wants to like make sure he it's that's fine because you don't want to necessarily let your actors know what

will or won't be revealed or certain just details for them. So they're not playing it too, obviously, you know what I mean? And maybe that's what was happening with Roland Knot. choosing to like not really go in depth about that decision. Or maybe it's something completely different. But Jacob said that his, how he made sense of it, he made this decision for himself, like how he was going to play it was that Louis.

needed help he could sense that something was missing and he asked himself like a therapy kind of question when was the last time you felt safe in your life and for louis it was when he met daniel 50 years ago he has felt unsafe and a sense of unease with armand for every decade after and um he's looking for truth And the last time that he and Armand were real with each other, Jacob said, was.

when Daniel was there in San Francisco. So Daniel is like, in Louis' mind, the one person who can bring something real out of his and Armand's relationship. So Armand doesn't like that. Armand doesn't want the truth revealed. Louis needs the truth. And so. Armand is like, you're going to get yourself killed doing this, just like 50 years ago in San Francisco. You're going to do something that's going to put you into an emotional state that is dangerous for yourself.

or you're going to attract violence from other vampires that will then try and come kill you for exposing us. And you're exposing our nature to a reporter. And Louie's like, I'm finding the truth about what happened. There's something I don't know. So I think that's what's happening here. I agree with Jacob's take.

yeah i agree i guess what i was kind of getting at is that it's a subconscious thing that he's not even privy to like because he's working with limited information just because like armand knows that he doesn't know that but there is this like like a subconscious like emotion type of thing um but i absolutely agree like he's he's on this on this journey like he knows that he doesn't know something and like that's like a ticking clock in his mind and daniel helps him out with that

um that's the last nice thing i'll say about daniel in this episode because i'm dragging everyone yeah yeah jacob and i also talked about how like um he really wanted to understand claudia more through looking through these diaries and like doing this story with Daniel. Like he wanted to, it was all, it's all about Claudia. He's trying to figure out the truth about Claudia. And at first he thinks that by reading her diary, that's the way to do it.

because like he doesn't have anything else so there's no other information about claudia to know right other than diving into her perspective yeah but there's like a nagging feeling that maybe there's something he doesn't know and um Daniel figures it out, you know, because as much as Armand is acting his booty off as Rashid, he's failing in a couple of moments, like right after.

Louis drinks his blood, he walks away as if it were nothing. And he has a smaller frame than Domic, who Louis was eating in an earlier episode, drinking from in an earlier episode. And as Daniel clocks, Domic was like, stumbling after louis drank from him just as much less blood than what he drank from armand you know and then armand walks away like it was nothing so it's kind of and that's yeah he's not they're not doing a good job of lying yeah no yeah at all at all um

well speaking of claudia we now jump back to new orleans and louis and listack discover that claudia has been hunting in secret there was louis was kind of concerned that she just wasn't eating Lissat reveals that he's like privy to the fact that he knows that Claudia has been like going out. She's been burying bodies in the same place for months and that's going to cause kind of an issue because she's buried them basically.

in what is essentially like a shallow grave in the river. And so when a storm comes through, that basically brings all of the bodies up to the surface and it causes a big... kind of commotion within the city that increases the police presence in the quarter and ultimately has all these like trickle down effects um and it's also during this time that tom anderson

is warning Louis and Lesat about these things, in addition to trying to get money from them for his campaign on the city council. So it's really never ending with the white men in the city. So there's a lot.

happening here and it's all just kind of like it's chaos yeah i really enjoy though this kind of early part of the episode with like louis and lestat being like good cop bad cop to claudia a little bit you know like um when they find her diaries and lestat's like like louis like don't read it and then reads it with them and when they like both plan that weird outrageous thing of listat hiding in the coffin and louis

i would have loved to be privy to like whose plan is that that we're gonna jump out and scare her and do all this but it's like louis you are just as bad as was not in these moments you just don't want to admit it um but i I think it's I think it's kind of fun. I wrote that down like when we were talking about this before is like the shift in tones in this episode is quite jarring as as it goes on. And it feels like.

maybe that like it also adds that layer of when we where we end this episode at like of course how we started it's just like oh my god like such a such a whiplash is happening um even though there's like obviously resentment and issues here it's still kind of like i think there's moments as this early stuff happens with claudia too and like all the appendages she keeps in her room and stuff it's very kind of like oh like

again kind of adam's family like fun morbidness but um and then it just like escalates even more it feels like the whole episode that was like you're kind of waiting for the shoe to drop like it feels like it's like a ticking time bomb as it goes on um yeah i think the way louis says stuff though at the beginning of he's like we did this to her it's like well

Louis. Yeah, Lestat was like really rude to her at the end. But my guy, you were the one who was begging for her to be made to like, let's let's self reflect a little bit. I think he pushes the blame on Lestat a little bit more than is deserved. Yeah, he's definitely He definitely sees himself as the good cop of the good cop, bad cop parenting duo, you know, but Claudia would not see them that way. She, I mean, Louis is her favorite, but like.

when she leaves them later in this episode, it's not because of only Lestat. Like the last thing she says before she leaves is like, Louie, why didn't you take me to a hospital? He was like, you were barely breathing. She's like, but I was breathing. You know, and he, when faced with that harsh reality, he immediately starts to like swallow it and kind of repress it. Like, and as we see in the years that come.

he blames Lestat for making her leave. And it's like, you're just in denial about your part in this because it's too hard to look at. And I can sympathize with that. But like, one day. you all come to terms with the fact that this, you had a role in this as well. And I mean him, that one day is the Dubai plot.

yeah and he says like it was selfish like dubai louis admits that so you know he's he's gotten there but it's like god yeah he says in dubai that he says we made her out of remorse you know but how do i tell her that all vampires are made out of trauma you know it's like yeah yeah you could have taken her to a hospital because claudia well that's the thing like claudia like

posits him with all of the questions it's very interesting because through episode one through episode four daniel is kind of the audience proxy and in episode five claudia is like she's like why you could have say if you wanted to save me so bad if that was what was weighing on your conscious so bad why didn't you give me a chance at living a life and and saving me in a way that would have made sense instead of like

positioning me as this band-aid to your broken marriage and not letting me live a lot like you knew that this would happen why did you do that to me and this scene reminds me of the movie which i don't say often but like it reminds me of the scene from the movie when claudia is confronting louis and she's just like

did you do this to me like who made me the way that i am like you knew this would happen to me why did you do this to me and that's a question that i think weighs heavy on me when i watch this i'm like why did y'all do this to her like it was so nice and fun for a couple of years but you knew that louie you knew that lisa you knew that you both knew this why and even i think the

In the mood that you brought up, Cam, like the shift being just so stark, like Lestat in this episode from moment one is just very cold and just... callous and and heavy um and i wrote down he says like oh i read her diary irked with ungratefulness and i'm like mother ungratefulness she didn't ask to be born like she did not ask for this life y'all took this life and made her this way like she's not like it's not like she asked to be a vampire like at least

to a certain extent louis was given a choice like you asked him on that altar do you want this and of course there's a lot that can go into that but like louis takes claudia who was still breathing who could have been saved as a human and lived a normal life as a human and brings her. They have this, you know, argument back and forth. Louis begs, but ultimately Lestat relents and does it.

and now she's subjected to this existence like it's crazy from both of them they both me off like they i have some some sympathy for louis because i understand but it's just like both of y'all are pissing me off to no degree it's it's just like a classic parent child issue going on here you know what i mean like so many parents are like when their child criticizes them

they're like, Oh, so I'm on your, I'm like not a good parent for you. You're being ungrateful. Like, look at all the, look at all the good things I do for you. So you're going to complain about the one time I mess up, you know? And it's like, She can complain. She can complain about this. You know, it's like you, there has to be space within a parent child relationship for a child to be independent and express.

express displeasure in what their parents have done, you know, and classic parents who are not being emotionally honest with themselves to be like, but look at everything I do for you. Yeah, it's like the impasse of becoming a person that Claudia is experiencing. It's like, as you become a person who walks the world and has experiences outside of your family.

Your family and your parents especially have to get to know that new person. You're not the kid that they raise. You're now becoming your own being. And there's a real interesting relationship. change that can happen at that point where either your parent or guardian accepts the adult that you're becoming or really gets stuck in you not being the child that you were. And I think that they both are

in their own ways kind of dealing with that. I think Lestat kind of wants to fast track to Claudia being an adult and having an autonomy and he doesn't have any responsibility for her. Whereas Louis is really having a difficult time where like... they're not living the life that they lived in episode four. Like, it's not domestic bliss. It's not like, oh, she loves her dad. She's a person now asking questions about her existence.

Neither of them, I think, really have answers for her in a way that is meaningful. But I do think because I think that there's some sentiment that Claudia is being unreasonable. But I think if they were honest with her. that she would be willing to listen and hear. But it takes a lot to be honest with yourself before you can be honest with someone else. And I think that's especially what Louis is dealing with. Lissette, who fucking knows? But like Louis especially can't.

be fully honest with himself so being honest with her is kind of tough yeah i think it's like on in addition to that um listat knew when they made her that this was a bad idea You shouldn't make a child a vampire. He did it anyway. He shouldn't have. And he is. Yeah, he's experiencing the consequences of that choice. And to be clear, Claudia.

experiences the worst of the consequences of these choices but they all have their own comeuppance in a way uh in regards to this and um louis has been able to completely ignore the immorality of making a child into a vampire up until this point so this is the first time that that decision of his is coming to roost um and it's confronting as it should be and they were not

right so it's for list dot it's like the day he always knew would come has arrived and he's like extremely bitter about it because he made this choice he did this And he's like, you wanted her, you fix her. He's in a way blaming Louis for all of it as well. And then Louis's blaming Lestat for all of it too. Like, yes, I wanted her, but now you made her life bad. You're a bad parent. I'm the only one who's taking good care of her. And it's like.

Neither of you should have done this. Claudia is the only one who's right. Like, that's it. And I carry that sentiment.

through the rest of this season through the rest of the show until the end of time claudia is the only one who's right title of that sorry she is honestly yeah let me let me write that down let me jot that down uh actually i'm gonna write that down because i know but i think you're right bobby where This one, he just starts off so like extra cruel and like, yeah, in the past, he's been like tone deaf and rude and he's got like a little bit of an ego, but he's also been.

you know funny like you can kind of be like oh style like there's some comedic relief there but this entire episode it's just like like what louis says like what the is wrong with you list like he's so evil this this whole

even at the beginning here he's just getting on my nerves straight away so back to my hating on the start in this episode folks get ready because it's about to happen well they've all been miserable for quite some time now like after charlie's death everything changed and like they're just they're all miserable at home in their own ways and louis and listat's parenting styles are very different um

Louis is really judgmental of Lestat and he's living with that a lot, you know? And I mean, Lestat's a bitch. Like he's saying he always, when he's in a mood, he always says the cuntiest bitchy thing.

when he's in a mood he never pulls back on the contiest things he can think of to say and um that's just kind of list in general and in other cases like in earlier episodes it's funny and it's um it's shown in moments like more like normal like low not low-key but just like normal like casual moments he's just like kind of funny in that way but then that same mindset and energy and just

way of being also applies to when he's in bad moods and so like when it it's just shitty when it continues you know uh yeah it applies when he's also in bad moods and so it's like oh great um it's it's funny when you're being funny but when we're in like a serious situation here you're just a fucking asshole like have some like just think stop saying things just to bite you know like just think for a second

take a fucking step back um yeah and i i was thinking too it's like in this episode louie's really concerned about claudia's safety and well-being and stuff and then listat's kind of concerned about like what she's doing to affect all three of them you know and um in a way that's like not thinking of claudia but also it's like uh

he's kind of i feel like in some ways too he's thinking of like the vampire keeping the vampire secret of it all and she's really he's an older vampire he sees how her behavior is going to expose them And he's like, no one's listening to me when I'm trying to make it clear that this is going to be a problem for us. And when I try and point this out, Louis is just saying that I don't care about her. It's like, it's not that.

we do need to worry about not being exposed and she's doing exposing things yeah so i feel like that's That's where the tension exists when this episode begins. That's the context between episode four and episode five that explains why he's being such an asshole. And of course it doesn't excuse it. It's just.

what led up to this you know i also like that that bit of like she claudia did kind of up by not burying the like with the bodies right like she did make a mistake and the fight scene with her and her parents it feels like such a classic like teenager fight thing too like when you do something up as you are growing into being an adult and learning what responsibilities are these things and you

are embarrassed to kind of be like yeah you're right my got my parents but also how you're like dealing with this you're trying to teach me a lesson it's like not the way to do it and when she screams like i hate you both like what child has not screamed that at their parents so it's kind of like watching that but then it's fun again how we see like what family relations and family ties explored but like in this

they're dealing with dead bodies and the idea of like vampires and being exposed. But yet you can still watch that and 100% relate to the scene. I'm just saying the writing of the show is just they've done a really good job of showing so many. fitting so many like very real aspects of family life into these first couple of episodes you know like if there's the teen

becoming independent and what that does to the relationship with the parents. There's having a kid to try and fix your marriage kind of thing. Like there's so much real family dynamics and issues.

that are kind of yeah they just bake so much of that into these first four episodes and it's just it's it's fun to see you know because like of course like these themes are not not absent throughout television you know but i just like how they do it in this one it's very real despite them being vampires it's just very realistic to the less savory side of being in a family and spending all of your time together

And I, right. And I think like it being like girlhood too. Like it's like hashtag girlhood. It's a coming of age, like story a little bit too. Well, I, two things before we, we.

truck along here but one i think with listat definitely agree with you kelly that like i i understand as a viewer and also with the context of the whole show so far why he was acting that way but again it kind of ladders back to what we talk about and have talked about in every episode which is just a little bit of communication could go my god so far and if he had just explained what the vampire rules were i think that they all would have abided by them like i

it's one of the most puzzling things about him as a character that is just like if you just if you tell people things to be wary of rather than it being couched in these like you know little snide remarks and if you're just honest with them about here's what the reality of our existence is here's kind of the the the weight of expectation that we all must uphold

then I think all of them would be like okay yeah and if Claudia knew that like she's not dumb like yes she's a teenager so she's a little bit naive but I think if she would have known she wouldn't have like gone and basically buried the bodies in a shallow water grave you know like i or but the problem is if he were to tell them all the vampire rules

and claudia knew that she would see that one rule of like oh so basically i'm illegal to exist and we kind of see like how that manifests in season two but it's just like list that if you just told them like if you weren't so guarded with wanting to explain your experience running into other vampires and and just explained what it means to be a vampire some of these problems would be mitigated like they they would be

not easily remedied because they, you know, Louis and Claudia have free will and so they can make mistakes. But it is to say that that would lay a foundation, at least of expectation. And then two, I... absolutely agree with the point of like i think that the show in a lot of what it is it being this gothic horror this gothic romance there are conventions that uh operate outside of what we may understand

those things to be traditionally but i do think that this is the episode where kelly like you said it gets very real and it explores kind of an unsavory side i think this episode is not afraid to show that these vampires are still the most human monsters and these are the unsavory human bits that still manifest in their dynamics with each other and i think that there is a gravity

and sense of understanding that needs to be brought with that we'll get to it later in the episode obviously but like i think it's just i get a little bit frustrated sometimes when i think about this episode and all of the everything that's come from and it's just like while yes the show does operate outside of a sense of real world it is very purposeful in the real world bits that it leaves into the tale um

Yeah. And also look what you did to Charlie. You made her watch him being burned. You've created a negative experience surrounding the way that you dispose of the bodies that you eat. So now she doesn't want to dispose of bodies that way. Now she's burying them. She's avoiding the incinerator at all costs because look what happened the last time she used it. Like if you hadn't have.

created a negative relationship to the incinerator for her this might not have happened the episode progresses and claudia is drunk when the cops who were kind of like aforementioned the police presence in the quarters picked up they've now come to the rue royale claudia answers the door drunk as a skunk and they now find out her parents find out that she's been hiding evidence of

the humans. She's got fingers in her journal. She's got titties in the drawer. It's a lot of stuff going on. She's dealing with a lot.

she's got a titty wardrobe a guy like it's just so much happening and that ultimately kind of convenes with i think lestat and louis wanting to chastise her but then she just kind of bears her soul and she's just like i'm gonna be like this forever like who's gonna be my lasat who's gonna be my louise like which one of you's gonna fuck me you know like you've you've done this to me

Have you thought ahead to like me maybe wanting to be a person in the way that you are? Like you guys will always have each other. I will have no one. And I think this is the scene where Lissette.

says like you know remember how happy we were before you you know before you came into the picture and louis was like we were not happy what are you talking about like this is she didn't come and make a situation she didn't ruin anything worse because yeah she didn't ruin anything like this is not on her um and then claudia

clocks it that Lestat has been stepping out on Louise. So this happy existence that he claims that she came in and ruined. Where is it? He was ruining it. Is the happy existence in the room with us right now?

no she's out on the corner at the pole waiting for stat to come outside so that they can go shack up antoinez basically claudia reveals that Antoinette is still in the picture because Lisette is still having an affair with her in the line of dialogue that I can recite top down her being like white girl down in algiers sings torch songs with a flat no nothing ass i said you better work yes claudia yes there is so it's like oh sorry this is your child you may

She made her and she learned from you. I bet you don't like your little country lines now because look what you taught her to do.

uh antoinette is now we know back into the fold louis is not happy about that it's very interesting that during this scene lestat is like i don't know if you know um and then louis finishes his sentence being like Antoinette like who else would it be um if she yeah like and it it's painful like Lestat knows what the situation is and how it's hurt Louis um and he's like oh I'll kill her soon but

he obviously doesn't mean that um but this kind of jump starts this whole conversation jump starts claudia leaving home and louis and listat louis kind of in this really deep funk and depression over their daughter leaving home uh they kind of go underground for for seven years and that really kicks up this very like big depression in in their lives and it manifests in very different ways um

And then kind of concurrent with that, Claudia is also experiencing horrors out in the real world. But we'll get to that. But starting with this, like Louis and Lissette have a very interesting dynamic now that Claudia is gone. Lestat feels very rejected by Louis, but Louis is very deeply in grief over his daughter being gone.

And it's very, again, it's like if they would have communicated with each other about how they were feeling, it might have been a little bit easier to deal with. But it is very interesting given everything that these characters represent. um how they're both kind of processing grief or losing a child or a child leaving in very very different ways yeah and it's just like

Lestat, again, will always lean into the resentment and bitterness and anger and have that come out in acidic ways. And this is the side of... there's like a kind of like louis louis got some bite in this part too like he even says in his narration like i took like a sick enjoyment out of riling him up um and it was out of like his deep

he was so depressed and he was just like he needed ironically to put it somewhere just like his mother was putting all of his her grief about paul onto louis we see a cycle repeating here of louie somehow not having learned um not to do this you know it's not i don't it's similar

similar to florence not exactly the same but um and of course it's not in response to a death but um yes but um yeah it's it they're both both of them are repeating family cycles and claudia like i said in the previous episode is like the cycle breaker of this family she's the one who Challenges them to change things and be better. And when they prove incapable of doing that, she leaves. Yeah. And. Yeah, it's.

if they would just talk and communicate and like i just want to like shake some sense into them like just talk to each other about your feelings like how have you not gotten your what you've been together what like 20 years now How have you not gotten to this? You know, it's just do something, do something different, do something other than what you're doing. But it's just really sad to see because they're just sunk into a miserable depression. Yeah.

And he it's very interesting that like Lestat is kind of I won't say that he's like throwing a temper tantrum because I think he is feeling very intense feelings, but they're manifesting in a very passive aggressive.

way like he's like lighting the um the card on fire and louise remarking on a book that he's reading he's just like oh like if you read past the 10 like first 10 pages you pass yourself off as uncultured and it's like what you said like he got a cheap thrill out of provoking lestat um but they both were kind of

under stimulated in the way of emotion and i think they both needed to feel something and it manifests in louis is like kind of you know little bits of passive aggressiveness and anger and then the status just

kind of the same thing rather than them. I think really... being again the name of the game with this episode is just honesty there's just a blatant lack of wanting to be real with one another and i think claudia wanted that from both of them and neither one of them were willing to be that with her like be honest and and vulnerable um and we do see that manifest in the next episode but it's all of what happens in this episode has to happen first for them to be pushed to the limits of

being like being forced to confront themselves like claudia is their mirror you know and they're not willing to to look in it at all yeah and it was like this for seven years it wasn't just like a bad slump in one year of their relationship like of course it worsened over time no doubt but like it got

At this point where we see them again, it's like it's the seventh year. It's the last year of all of this. This has been happening and worsening for all this time and no resolution has happened. And it's just. a really tragic inability for either of them to understand each other and put themselves in the other's shoes. Like Lestat can't understand how devastatingly painful it is for Claudia to have left.

And Louis can't understand how devastatingly painful it is for Louis to clearly feel like the family has no meaning with Claudia not there. and he is still there yeah so it's like what it's bringing up this feeling for louis for listat again from before claudia came into the picture of louis refusing to call listat his family And so Lestat is feeling like he's seeing once again that Louis doesn't see him as family, even though Louis does. Look what he's done. Look what he's made with his life.

to be with listat you know like he loves him um he just can't express it and um he had in this timeline he in this specific time period he has no ability to If the love is still there for Lestat that he has, he has no ability to show it right now. And then Lestat just can't help Louis.

Get out of this depression in a meaningful way, you know, like they're just they're not good partners for each other right now Louie talks about how there is like a simmering pot of resentment Basically that Claudia walks into and we see that in full display when she's not there like the problems like you said cam the problems that they had didn't go away they were just kind of like put on pause for the

the couple years when it was like good domestic bliss with the three of them but ultimately when she's not there that makes louise sad but then lestat is sad and mad that that louis is not i guess willing to embrace the family dynamic with just him um like you said kelly like he doesn't i think louie's mourning the loss of their family pod with claudia and lasata's just like why aren't we

like why can't you be happy with just me like why can't we just me like why yeah why aren't we which was the same question in episode three like why can't you just be happy with me why are you concerning yourself with human affairs and Why can't we be the family? Yeah. And more than on top of that, it's also like they both are heartbroken that Claudia is gone. Lestat is just treating it with ice.

you know like he's being icy about it he is um choosing to be like his expression of that sadness is by being mad at her you know and louis is taking it by like blaming Lestat for it and so it's like there are ways of grieving this and like the the hardship they're each individually experiencing with this are in direct conflict with one another and i feel like that's really what's causing the most tension here is because like

their response to this her leaving like they're both brokenhearted by it they can't talk about it and they also like their ways of dealing with it are completely at odds and making it worse And I think Louis is hurt. I think Louis is also still hurt by the Antoinette of it all too, you know, and clearly he still remembers her name. So I think there's that layer too. And if Lula Stott doesn't.

again of course he loves you list that's why he's so hurt by this like moving into like deeper into the episode and we see what's happening with with claudia i thought it was really interesting to the visually to transition between what's happening with louis and listat and going into claudia there's like a crossfade with uh louis on the couch and he's like very sad obviously depressed and it's a crossfade maybe it's later in this uh in the uh scene but it's like a fire

that is overlaid on top of him. And I thought it was, that's kind of what I was mentioning earlier in the episode, laddering back to that feeling of Louis having this, like.

longing and um subconscious like not desire but like he has the show is it feels like it's pinging those things that we see met like come to fruition um in in season two like the whole idea of him like longing for the fire going out into to the sun this looming uh air of of sadness i thought it was just just a really interesting shot like this episode has a lot of

visually very interesting like little quirks that it puts in that we don't really see um not that we don't really see but just are not in the other episodes as prominently but um

We now see with Claudie, she's gone out and she's kind of bebopped from college to college within the country, wanting to get more knowledge, wanting to... uh gain more history on on vampires and in doing that she runs across this vampire uh named bruce and what happens between them is really

unsavory, to say the least. It's very unsavory. And I hate this scene. I really do hate this scene. I hated it the first time I saw it. I thought this was the one time in the show i can count on my one hand how many times i've disagreed with the choice made within the show um not just like oh i don't like that this thing happened in context but i get it but like this is like a aerial view i don't like

this that the show leaned into this trope um using kind of sexual assault in this idea of like you know it allows for character progression of a of a woman like within her narrative like she has to like has to go through these things um i don't have much say on that i i don't like this scene um and i i have trouble with um

parceling out its effectiveness and necessity i think they could have gone about this in a different way especially with all that this character goes through adding that on top is just like okay damn you know yeah Yeah, I agree. I also can count on one hand the choices that the show has made that I just don't like. This is number one. And number two is if they're tied, really, happens at the end of this episode.

Um, so, um, yeah, I just don't, I don't like it. I, the, um, the idea that, uh, the, the trope that we're speaking of is that like. a woman gets sexually assaulted to like toughen her up. Right. No, thanks. That can be cut. Um, it doesn't need to exist. Um, uh, That said, it does exist in this show. So whenever I rewatch this or when I was rewatching it this time around or just in general, when I think about it, I just try. And I'm like, well, there's no taking it out. So I just have to.

review it for its presence. And it is horrifying. And that's my review of it. yeah it's just she she's already been through so much she has to go through this too so many other ways that i think we could have done the thing of like She goes out into the world and it's not exactly what she thought it would be. Kind of, I guess, affirming Lestat's point later in the episode of like, you learn that the world is, you know, there are wolves around every corner, that whole whatever.

having it be that it's like is that the only way that a woman can experience those that that lesson or understand that like And I'm not even saying that she shouldn't have been at odds with another vampire. Like, I think it is important that she goes and meets another vampire and learns that like, okay, all of them suck. Like that is the one thing I wrote down is like, Claudia has never met a good.

vampire until the very end of her life. But I think having it be that felt like him giving her the etiquette book and being like, you need to learn how to be a lady. and all is up it's just and then hearing the details of it in season two i'm like okay so we're okay all right yeah i will say as difficult as it is for it to be this plot

very glad that they didn't show it. Because other shows, maybe every other show would have shown it. And really grateful that they didn't do it at all.

So it's weird. It's like, I wish this plot weren't there, but I also give... props for not showing it for not depicting it you know it's like we know that there's there still shows some mindfulness there that like we don't need to depict the horror for it to be horrific to know that this happened to her so they like do it the right way you know like if this is going to be plot in a show i want it done this way meaning i don't want to see it yeah hate it i agree it's like

There could have been other ways to show that, like if the point you're trying to make is the vampires are cruel out there and they're going to like, that's what Lestat says again later.

this is that's it's not needed to demonstrate that right after this then we have like the daniel discussion with louis and dubai and yeah he says i i think this is when he says like the once you put it out there like they decide what it is he's making comments that i think are like uncomfortable but i don't think he's wrong but at the same time what he's saying about how people were perceived claudia in the book it's like

these men are also kind of doing that in a way like daniel armand and louis are also kind of doing that with her in a discussion so it's like just let this girl breathe i just all the men around her she cannot catch a break she can never speak for herself in the midst of all of this uh we get the scene where grace now has to say good goodbye to louie like she basically in a word

lays him to rest in that she basically buries him. They meet at the cemetery, the same cemetery where Louis turned and became a vampire. And she's just like, for my sanity, for my family.

i can't you're not my louie anymore my louie died years ago i don't know who you are you are not him you have to i have to do this for myself i have to close this chapter and so in a word she not kills them in a malicious way but she just is like i can't she cuts them off like completely and and they are about as no contact as you could possibly be and

witnessing all of this in the shadows who i guess she's been following him for a while is claudia who's who's come back and she has the revelation of like i know i was made now i was made to be a a sister to louis which i think on the surface is very sweet. And I truly do think she means it. But I think it's, to me, I was like, it's so fucked up that she feels like she has to come in and fix this thing. She didn't break it. She's not.

this mistake she wasn't this this hurricane of a being that comes in and completely upends everything but she feels it upon herself to be like i have to I've made things wrong and I have to make that right again. I have to be there for Louie in this way. When it's just like, no, babe, like to me, I'm like.

He's always going to be a parent to you. Like he's always going to have a semblance of accountability and responsibility for you. In a way, I can see how that can be read as like she's fixing this for them and stuff. But I think.

I don't think it's wrong for Louis to need a grace. And grace left him, right? And I'm not saying that you guys think that. I like what you said about she's... his companion like yeah i think that's yeah i think i think we're all he desperately wanted more he wanted he wanted to he wanted their family to be bigger yeah yeah and he went about bringing um

a new member of their family into it in an unexpected, abrupt, and wrong way. But they would have found a way to have another person added to their coven, I think, no matter what. because louis really needed that it wasn't um it's not that lestat's not enough for him it's that like he comes from a larger family he wants more he wants a bigger family and um he

has lost Paul. He's lost grace. He desperately wants them back. So he needs, he tries to find, he, he, he makes one, you know? And, um, yeah, I, I think that Claudia saying I was made to be Louis sister is actually an incorrect interpretation on Claudia's part. You know, I think that that's her perspective. her needing to feel more autonomous in her family, you know, and she's the line before then she's like, I don't really know why I'm following them around other than.

them being Louis and Lestat, other than life loses meaning without them, which we were talking about before in how this show has a very real depiction of family life. That's there too. That's like a really important line, I think, because it's like, yeah, these relationships, if these people weren't my family, I wouldn't still be here.

you know, is such a real experience that I can personally relate to in some ways. And it's like, yeah, I. it's a it's a contradictory thing to contain within to hold within yourself because these conflicting ideas that are existing at the same time of like these people have hurt me and i don't want to live without them yeah

So it's figuring out how to carry that with you forward. You know, she's making a decision to live with that. Right. And it's a very complicated, very human thing and something I deeply.

deeply relate to. And I think for Claudia, it helps her make sense of things more or helps her carry the burden more. If she's like, I'm not their daughter, I'm their sister. I'm an adult now.

Okay, well, there we go. Like through all of that, Claudia does come back and she comes back and basically she... is apologetic as soon as she comes home she's just like i wasn't in my right mind i had to go out into the world i've read these things i have this plan to go to this part of the world to find more of us i've only come back because

i want to take louis with me and lestat um was not having that in the least and of course we we understand what happens uh following their kind of tit for tat back and forth um and there this this is the point i think it's it's we've talked about it's this before the um before we started recording but it's less that we need to go through exactly what happened because we we see it we understand it this is a very heinous act of domestic abuse that's happening um within this this coven um and it's

It's truly so upsetting. It's a really upsetting watch. Like I said, this is why I don't really go back and frequent this episode much, just because it made me physically, made me... sad and mad um and it's it's a lot and so i guess like i i posed the question to y'all like what was your experience kind of taking in the show going in this really

Like this is a very stark direction, like a very hard turn into a very devastating and like horrific direction in a way. Like what was that experience like?

watching it and kind of like how have you parceled it out like in in watches of it again yeah i mean it's very overwhelming i um i don't really remember the first time i what i felt when i watched it but i know again like i binge watched it immediately so i feel like a lot of how i feel about this is informed by the episode that comes after and just being like

where do we go from here like it ends on such a cliffhanger I guess and then it was just so like upset with Lestat so that the next episode it was really hard for me to like welcome him back in but i guess the show is is challenging its audience right it's not letting us get comfortable it's making very it's interesting it's

willing to make these choices i guess and do this with characters that are going to be that with main prominent characters um who we have seasons with and will continue to be with and how we our relationships with them will be challenged but i think i liked i didn't like but i think it's interesting that it's we're with claudia throughout all this so like you said earlier she kind of is the audience proxy as all of this is happening

and the destruction like we don't have to see everything to know that it's how bad it is and to see her reactions and to be present with her it's just so like it hits your gut like I just

While this is happening, I want to protect Claudia in a sense. I want to hug her. I think as the child experiencing this, that is an added layer of just... complete makes it even more horrifying i think when when there's like a child present um and to be there with her for it it's really difficult but it's up it's disturbing and i hate it that's what i'll say oh man yeah um i don't even know how i want to start um

I'll start with my first time viewing experience of this episode, which was the screener for it. And I can't remember if this was the first. I don't remember if I, I don't know if I'm remembering this correctly, but it's. I think that when the screeners came out for this first season, it was the first five episodes. And then for a couple of weeks, that was all we had. Wow.

a couple weeks later the last two came which is common um screener it's not very common for a full season of a show to be given out in screeners um although not unheard of it's i'd say it's pretty semi-frequent but it's more So the norm for like a batch of episodes to come out and then for them to be released in batches after that, because they're like finishing editing final touches. There's so many times when you'll get a screener.

And the visual effects won't be done. So there's green screens. There was a green screen in this episode for me. Episode five was not the visual effects were not done yet. And. I was so engrossed by the acting that I almost didn't even notice. The green screen specifically is in, is when they were in the sky, the scene where, yeah.

Lestat is saying those things in the sky before he drops Louis. And yeah, so that frame where it was just on Sam's face, and he's saying like, your, your hateful lips, I think is the line.

green screen behind him for my first experience. And I remember afterwards being like, the way the green screen didn't even distract me. They were just so... like it was the acting was just so good i was fully in the world even though visually the world wasn't there um so my first experience was with that and it was a brief green screen it wasn't for like the whole

scene, but it was just some of the pieces of the scene when they're in the sky. So that was my first time viewing it, which was a very unique experience. And then I can't remember what it was like when I watched it again, but I've, I never skipped this episode and rewatches. I always like, I always stay tuned in. Cause I feel for me, it would feel the whole season would feel incomplete without it.

But I understand not going back to it completely. I, yeah, I don't know. It's hard to put to words what I think about this episode, this scene. The violence is really intense. They really... It's haunting. And I don't want to describe what haunts me the most. about it just because i don't think people really need to hear it but there are just aspects of it that are just like i physically pains me like i get a

horrible feeling in my gut whenever I watch it. It's very evocative. And it's a very visceral viewing experience every single time. So, yeah.

i re-watch it whenever i i still i don't skip it when i re-watch it but it is a difficult experience yeah It's tough on purpose. I think it's meant the gravity of the situation is not meant to be downplayed and seen as just kind of like, it's not played like the... the the scene with lasat punching the priest through the head in in episode one where it's obviously being played for horror like this is very real domestic violence like it is a real act of family violence

that's taking place that kind of um is is is punched up by vampirism but that doesn't take away from like at its core what it is um which is uh domestic strife happening within this this pod. Um, and I, I think it's, it's, um, I, it's, it's, it's an episode that kind of knocks me.

on my ass not not necessarily in a good way because it's like it's so it's dense like it's just we've talked about in the the length of this episode it's like one thing after another after another after another it's a lot um And I sometimes go back and forth with the effectiveness of that. I think it's, you're bombarding a lot of people, especially who may be new to Gothic horror, like that is.

that's a lot like it's just it's a lot to go to um ultimately i think that they how they have kind of um not what's what's the word i'm looking for how they have carry what happens within this episode through the the show i think that they've uh in a sense earned doing something as graphic as that. Because I think if you have something that salacious and graphic and violent as that, but don't do anything with it, it's almost just like...

being horrific for horrific's sake. And so I am, I do commend the show for in all of its exploration of, you know, the Odyssey of Recollection, Memories of Monster, all these themes of. how we remember something may not be what it was. I appreciate that the show did not have that be a part of the fold. I appreciate that they of course they do revisit the scene in season two and there's more added to the to the dynamic. But ultimately what it is is like.

What happens and what this is being an act of domestic violence is never downplayed. It happened. It was done at the hands of Lestat. He owns up to it. He says in his own words. i knew it would hurt him and so i i did it like i did this there was a purpose to it um and i think in taking in all of the show for what it is I think many things can be interpreted and are up for interpretation. I think that this is one of those things that is not. And in my...

I realize I never said like my viewing of it. Like I said, I don't really go back and watch this episode for many reasons. But I remember watching it week to week and it having to wait a week in between. this episode and episode six it was torturous i was like oh my god like this is

This is painful. There is some purpose in this scene. And I understood how people were like, because I remember seeing discussions of people being like, I'm out. Like, I can't do this. And I understand that. I really do.

But the scene is controversial, I think, for a reason. It is... narratively very complex it is asking a lot of you like cam like you said like i think it is a challenge to the viewers of our dynamics and how we understand these characters and i think colors your perception of these characters namely listat um going forward with reason um so yeah it's a tough watch on purpose yeah

and another thing that's not in the source material so i understand um book list app fans being really upset about this being added in um yeah i would be too if i were them probably um That said, I do see it. I do think it works in the story of the show. As you were saying, Bobby, and I do understand completely this being people's exit from it. And also I've seen.

A lot of Black fans are just Black viewers. I don't know that they would even call themselves, some of these people would call themselves fans anymore after this. This was an exit for them because they didn't want to see this white person. brutalizing brutalizing this black man and also it's a white man who assaults claudia earlier in the episode so it's like yeah fair i totally see if this is your exit from the show um

And it's kind of like, no matter how they handle it after, if you just don't want to see that, you don't have to see it, you know? So I totally get not wanting to see it. And yeah, I... I do think that it goes, like I said, I see how we got here. You know, I see how the plot got here, as horrible and difficult as it is to watch.

For me, it was not that surprising. And I think the episode, like this whole episode, like is like. working up to that point obviously it is it's a story that's playing out but the intensity that we see from listot here the acidity there's small hints of what's to come you know it's like laying the groundwork for the explosion Right. And that's what it is. It's an explosion of this pent up rage that has not been that's the result of years of difficulty that has not been worked through.

And not just difficult. Like not just like not handling, not processing what you are struggling with in real time as your relationship progresses, but also like things that happened in your past that have like made you capable of acting this way, you know? and um the story that they've made there is bound to be a tipping point right and there are these

very physically powerful vampires with extremely heightened emotions. If they were going to have this unhealthy family dynamic reach a boiling point.

the violence that they chose to create in this episode we have already said that we we don't like right um but something was going to happen i think it's a question of escalation how do you in the progression of a season show that things have gotten so so bad like you said with these very high-powered beings and how do you delineate that this is not

Just because they bring it up in the trial where Santiago is like, oh, isn't this just the way of the vampires? We have our little spats. Just that's just what happens. And the show via. Lissat in the trial makes clear that this was a this is not just sparring between vampires of equal power ability age just this is not a vampiric disagreement this was

a purposeful, horrific act of violence. Yeah. In season two in the trial, he's like, it's being dropped from the sky. It's just a bad fall. Like this is. uh this is nothing violence is nothing to a vampire it's like no it's the emotion behind it is the horror that's the like it's what do you like it's What they do to each other is what makes them monsters, you know? And in this episode, Lestat is being a full-blown monster.

And you can't erase the humanity of that. He's not doing this because he's a vampire. He is doing this out of monstrous human behavior. and on top of that he has a vampire strength to inflict more pain onto it if you take the vampiric element out of it and i think that's something that is so important to discussions of this episode in the scene remove the vampirism that would still be at the core there is still

this abusive dynamic that is at the core like you said vampire only supersizes it it only heightens the destruction but it does not it is not the reason it's not like the stat went into vampirism a blank slate you carry whatever whoever you are as a human into your vampiric life like

Just like who you are in your physical being is who you will be in this eternal life, it's the same thing. Who you are, the humanity, your moral code, the... laws that you govern yourself your experience carry into your vampiric life and the the interesting aspect of it is seeing vampirism dance with already the human laden experiences that you have and see how it's different it's like the fingerprint thing it's like each one of these people came into their vampiric life

with different experiences, all caked and abused. These are all three people who have been abused, but we see how it manifests. Like when you live forever, how do you make sense? How do you make peace? How do you... fight against what you've experienced um and we see how that manifests and we see how one of them has taken it upon himself to to continue that cycle um and and it doesn't

i i almost kind of look at this scene and you remove like of course they are vampires that doesn't take away from it but i think that they're in discussions of it There is this centering of the vampirism versus, like you said, Kelly, the centering of humanity. Like this is arguably one of the most human scenes in the entirety of this.

the show it is showing that like at its core these are three people they're people who are monsters the most human monsters you do have that aspect and there are other scenes where you should center the vampirism you should center these vampiric rules and the cultures and all those things i don't think this is that yeah i

I don't think that this is where you center the vampiric rules, you center the gothic horror, you center all of these features of a genre versus like this is at the end of the day.

And even if you want to call it back to the books, I think Anne Rice was telling a human story via these supernatural creatures. This is that moment. This is what it is. I do think that it will be.

a high wire act for the show to find a way and and ultimately if if someone does not want to ever see the good and less at again that is on that is in the eye of the beholder and i don't think that that's necessarily a bad thing um but i think and they've started it with uh episode eight in season two where you're seeing these different sides of him and understanding the grief that he experiences and everything but it will be a very interesting uh exercise to yeah like like how do you

How do you come back from that? Right. The show put itself in the situation. It's willing to put its character there and then build it out from there. And I think that is really fascinating. I think that's... yeah that they're willing to do that with a story with it's and it may work and it may not and it's just ultimately like yeah trying to see like i guess i'd rather to try than not try yeah like better story you're painting a really dynamic um

character in in the set and i don't think that like oh the abuse makes him interesting like it's not right it's just no he is not just perfect baby angel who's endured all the terrors and horrors and he's never done anything wrong um but like when you have a character who is abusive that is going to color every thing that someone may see of them um and so now going into their third season where you're centering that character

That's the interesting thing of now. How does this show function? Knowing we have the setup of these two seasons in which we see Lisette in this awful light, purposefully so. What now?

like how do we move forward with this character who's now at the center of the narrative you know how do we do that how do we balance accountability and understanding and learning and all of these things like what is what is the test there and how do they they rise to the challenge and i think that they could i really do but i do think that there will be elements where people will just never be able to get past this episode and i don't think that they're wrong yeah i think that's okay yeah

Yeah, I think that's a reasonable conclusion. The other aspect of it that I have a hard time and I don't know if it's a blight on the show or if it's just the nature of the beast. I'm really not sure. I think the. the intersections of identities, colors, the effectiveness of this scene for me in a different way. And I don't think that it is invalidating.

how other people take it and how other people perceive it. What they're attempting to do is really, really crazy and good. So far, I think they've made some good strides in that. uh but i do just like it's just the thing that i have like the trepidation of um like being a black fan and sometimes it's just like i it's hard to hold those like the two truths you were talking about it's hard it's hard to hold them

when I watch this episode. I think it's tough. I have a little bit of a side eye because I do think that while the relationship dynamics are done well, I don't always think the intersection of other identities like race do super well. And I can tell that there is a kind of very prevalent.

white voice in some of the writing and handlings of these things. I think the dynamics of Louis being the brutalized Black character, holding those truths of i want this man and i fear this man like i think it presents a really um difficult thing to parcel out. And ultimately, I think that's why I get really frustrated with conversations around how people have received this scene. It's not just violence, it's racialized.

violence it is a white character who's in this it's the power dynamics of it as well like not just the vampiric power elements but the societal power elements the construct of race like all kind of dancing

with this domestic violence aspect, it's overwhelming. Like it really is a lie. And then in the next scene, I think that they do their best to try and parcel through that. But it is, it's... it's hard like this is a really difficult episode for me in like more ways than one and that's why I kind of criticize this episode by being like it's a lot like it's if it's not one thing

it's another that just kind of comes in and just you know really just uh knocks you off your feet so i'm um i yeah yeah this is uh this is a tough one for for me for obvious reasons and maybe not obvious reasons but yeah this is so very complicated that you must have a really difficult conversation about it and that's what this is it's really

heavy to parse through this, you know, and that's not an accident. You know, it was not unintentional on the show's part. They've made it incredibly confronting. real story that puts to screen very difficult real life experiences that many people have had. And it is saying like. This is so wrong. What's been done to these two characters. It's not shying away from that at all. It is showing how bad it is. And then it circles back in season two and.

explains in detail how bad it is yeah with no ifs ands or buts about it and it's like and now what you know where do we go from here Yeah. And how do you live with this after? And there's no easy answer to that. And there's no fast answer to that. I've never seen anything like this. This rewatch specifically has like redefined the show for me and not in a way that it's entirely different.

It actually is just now I have words for what I was always feeling before. And I have clarity about it now. And I'm like, oh, wow, this is. reaffirmed my connection to this show in an incredibly powerful way. And I can't say that I think it's good that I think this violence plot is in there because I don't think that's a word I'd ever apply to it. The best word I can think of is R, thought-provoking and compelling. Yeah. And wow, fuck you. You really make me think.

you twisted fucks um that could be a clip yeah i mean If it's going to be there, it's like when we talked about with the scene with Claudia, if it is going to be there, how does it justify its existence? It's like what Jacob says with like the adaptation justifying is.

existence what is it exploring what questions is it answering and ultimately we won't know the full effectiveness of this this part of the plot until the show is done pretty much like we won't see it how it plays out in the grander narrative because the story is still unfolding like we haven't gotten to the part of hearing things from like within the mind the sick twisted mind of lestat yet like we haven't gotten

to that part of the story um and not to say that like we're waiting for that part to right any wrongs to do it but it's just to further round out the narrative like we have to we don't i mean you don't have to do shit but like we will eventually get to the point where we understand his inner workings or not understand but just hear his inner workings and hear how he

parcels out this and ultimately this combined with the first two seasons will then lay at the the feet of the viewer here's the full story here is how we have built upon these these themes like this is the complete narrative and we're just not we're not there yet you know like in and ultimately along the way we can we are given the gift of feeling these things and being washed in these emotions um and that is in and of itself very exciting you know that is to to

love this show and still have these really powerful like kelly like this really powerful emotional revelation from what it is presenting to you is for that alone, like you said, it's incredibly thought provoking and compelling, you know, to give you that, that kind of, you know, like, wow moment in that way is in, in that way is like, okay. The show is doing something really interesting if you want to or are willing to dig and peel back those layers.

And I think that's why it's sometimes difficult to have these conversations, especially online, where everyone is kind of coming at it from their own perspective. But to me, as like, in how I have seen especially Black characters in these fantasy sci-fi spaces get the short end of the stick all the time. I'm thinking about Bonnie and Vampire Diaries and thinking about Tara and Lafayette and True Blood. It's like...

damn like can't we be vampires in peace you know like do we we face enough conflicts and there can still be conflicts in the story we've seen it depicted in you know the first four episodes but then we add that it's just like damn Could there have been another way?

to explore the themes the the idea of holding multiple truths at once the idea of having a really nuanced complex relationship with someone um i think to me all of that is already baked in the idea of lestat being louis and claudia's making or the idea of him being this, you know, geriatric, he's not geriatric, but being this old vampire, being a vampire older than them by, you know, a couple hundred years or so, like you have that friction already.

Is there another way to escalate it? Is there another way to elevate it? And I know that there will be some other people who are Black or BIPOC who would agree or disagree. That is what comes with depicting these characters. You know, I'm not speaking for the entirety of the community. We're not a monolith. This is just my experience as a Black viewer, taking this in, being a fan of this.

type of storytelling these characters this was a point where i'm like i do understand in the grand lexicon of of the story why this had to happen doesn't mean that i like to see it you know um so It's a tricky bit. It's a really tricky bit.

it's kind of like a good summary of the entire episode i understand why this had to happen in the grand lexicon that doesn't mean i like it but i didn't like seeing it you didn't have to show me so yeah yeah i get it yeah i can't separate like the subject of race from people thinking that like louis saying i don't love you is just as abusive as listot dropping him out of the sky i'm like would you say that about a white person i that's that's the that is the part that i think

colors this whole dynamic to me if louis was white like he is in the book in the movie would these conversations about abuse be the same do the are people willing to interrogate why do they think Louis is capable of abusing Lestat in the same way that Lestat abuses him via solely not saying I love you. not even capable. It's like, why do they think that him, that, that action, like, or that is abuse that is comparable to the physical violence that Lestat inflicts upon him? It's not.

What the fuck? It's not. And like nothing that Claudia did in this episode or ever, just like Louis never did anything to warrant this. Nothing warrants what happened.

you know but there has there are viewers who do feel that like the build up to this explode explosion of rage from listat that the buildup is from louis and claudia it's not no no like they had their relationship troubles and then the list did this and it wasn't because of louis and claudia listot did this you know it's you know it's so much more complicated than that i yeah i cannot it's astounding to me to see people actually be like

Yeah, Louis and Claudia were just as awful to Lestat as Lestat was to them. Yeah, and that's the episode. We've talked about it at length. It is a... is a tough watch in some cases on purpose in some cases unnecessarily but ultimately it's a very important episode in the lexicon of the show and um Yeah, if you've made it to this part, wow. Thank you for being here because it's a tough watch. We do very much appreciate you listening if you have made it this far.

This show is not easy to watch and this podcast episode was not easy to make. So thanks for sticking with us. It certainly was not. So just given the gravity of this episode, we're not going to be doing a start your take because obviously it's tough to do that.

it's an episode like this but we will be linking some resources on uh domestic violence and mental health including the national domestic violence hotline uh a organization called ujima the national center on violence against women in the black community as well is a link to many resources for BIPOC and queer people as far as like mental health resources go from the Mental Health Coalition. So we'll link all of that in the description for you should you need those resources.