The Path to Artistic Success: Lessons from Langston Hughes and Alice in Wonderland

Today , we're going to discuss a quote by Langston Hughes , and I'm really excited to talk about this one with you , ty .

So the quote goes like this this is from Thank you , man , which was a short story that Langston Hughes wrote , and it goes like this I have discovered in life that there are ways of getting almost anywhere you want to go if you really want to go . So with that , I'll turn it over to you to unpack this and take our first pass .

He is one of the most famous American writers , poets , social activists , playwrights , columnists in the history of American literature . Black American writer who should have a lot more recognition than he does , and one of the earliest innovators of jazz poetry and most often known as one of the great leaders of the Harlem Renaissance .

And I can guarantee you that somewhere within our episodes we will end up talking about specific artists from the Harlem Renaissance in the 20s in Harlem , new York , because it should also get a lot more recognition that it does . Some beautiful artists that represented that time and space . But wow , what a quote .

You know taking that from a short story and literature and thinking about that in the terms of art and being a working artist and knowing that every artist out there doesn't matter what level you're at , whether you are a beginning artist , an emerging artist , a mid career artist or an established artist .

You have dreams , you have a vision of where you want your work to go , and so you know this quote . I mean , this is a very powerful quote that came from a person at a time when the entire world , or all of America , was against him as a creator and as a human being , right .

So you think of the roadblocks that a Langston Hughes had in Harlem in the 20s , 30s , 40s , 50s , until he died far too young , the things he had to come up against just to get published , to create , to get his voice heard beyond just his community , which is where really it was initially only heard . You think about that as an artist , right .

As a creator , you know we have roadblocks that we don't even know exist as artists trying to get our work out there and trying to create , and so not to take anything away from Langston Hughes and his life at all , because we definitely are recognizing what he did , what he stood for and the movement he was a part of during the Harlem Renaissance and for black

artists today , what he represents . But let's shift this a little bit to just an average discussion of artists in general when he says I've discovered in life there are more ways of getting almost anywhere you want to go , if you really want to get there . This is a conversation . You and I have a lot right .

But you know , as somebody who's definitely very ambitious and achievement driven , goals are important to me having a target to shoot for and , being still very early in my artistic practice , having a sense of what a low , medium and high goal or objective might be .

I know where I ultimately want to go , but there's often times , I think , in the artistic twist and turns that the path might take . It's really difficult for somebody who's early on to have a sense of what's a reasonable next step right . So that's the context that you and I have discussed this sort of bigger idea for myself personally , yeah .

You have artists that go straight into an MFA because , man , that world out there is scary and it seems like an MFA is the quickest way to get into galleries and to do things . And then there's a lot of artists with huge debt from their MFA's that realize , oops , that wasn't that didn't really help me much .

Then you have people who are just creating on a regular basis for years and years and years and hoping something happens . And the hard part is is the art world doesn't come with a set of instructions .

There's no manual that says follow these steps , like you could go buy a business book or you could go buy a whatever book and learn step by step by step to get to where you want to go . There's no rules . There's no set plan on how to get there .

No-transcript Succeed , fail , fail , succeed on your own , and you learn these lessons along the road of what the art world wants from you , what it doesn't want from you , what's acceptable , what doesn't . And the hard part is this is an ever changing tide . This isn't something that you know . One year is one way and for the next 20 years it's the same way .

It's like every few years , everything shifts and change and then We've got a pandemic we're dealing with .

That , just , you know , knocked everything else to hell the way it existed pre Covid pandemic , and now things are starting to change and develop in different ways , right with Online galleries , and some people lost their footprints , lost their actual galleries , and they're going to complete digital galleries and these things .

So , right , there's this ebb and flow of things that are constantly changing and constantly , you know , going from one thing to the next new ideas , new things , and you have , you know , the pandemic through a big wrench in that for all of us , for so many people , because we couldn't go out .

We couldn't go do things and see people and visit galleries and do these things .

So now there's more emphasis on digital right galleries that lost their footprints or lost their one gallery , emerging galleries that had to close their doors because they couldn't bring in money , are now moving to digital platforms , and so you know everything is constantly changing , and so it is difficult to really go .

I know where I want to go , I just don't know how to get there Right right .

You know it's ultimately get to whatever the end goal you know might be . So , in sort of unpacking that quote , you know there's ways of getting almost anywhere you want to go right . So if we really dissect that like cool , not just there's a way , but there's ways , there's options . You know there's not a direct path .

You know everyone , especially in something , as you know , subjective and fickle , as as as as art , there's not going to be a one size fits all . You know paint by number . You know path to get from where you are to where you want to go .

I think the part of this quote that really resonates with me and causes me to pause is you know if you really want to go , you know , like that last part . So you know what I take from that is that there has to be some pretty strong , you know , fuel in the tank .

Right , there has to be a desire , there has to be a passion , there has to be , you know , something that's going to push and pull us through . You know the challenging times , the ups and downs that are inevitable , be , you know , going to come right . So I wonder if you could talk about , like you know how to .

I'm not sure how to phrase this as a question , but I'm just thinking about . You know , how do I , how do I know if I really want to go , what is , what is what is really wanting to go ? What is having that sort of fire ? You know what does that even look like ?

And how does one then translate it assuming that it's there , you know , into the day to day . You know activities required to make the , to make the journey .

And you know , when I left to go full time as as a studio artist , I visited one of my former professors out in California , the sculptor William Catling , and laid out all my work .

We talked , we sat and talked and he just said I want to let you know like you're about to enter the most difficult point of your life , the most beautiful , joyful part , but also the most difficult . And now I know what he means . It is not easy , but I really wanted to go right . It's how bad

. Do you want it ? Because you're going to struggle , you're going to suffer , you're going to be frustrated , you're going to be confused , you're not going to have rules , you're going to fail Right , and you're going to be alone most of the time . Like there's a lot of things .

But at the end of the day , if your goal is to be a studio artist , I want to get into galleries . I want to impact the world with my art , or my community with my art , or my city or my state or my country , you know .

Vice versa , I want to be in museums , I want to legacy with my art all these questions that artists , you know , should be having with themselves to figure out where they want to go . At the end of the day , you're going to be spending a whole lot of time alone in your studio by yourself . How bad do you want it ?

Because you're probably going to have to work a part time job . You may have to work a full time job because just because you're making a lot of art doesn't mean you're going to sell a lot of art right away . Right , there's , there's a grand myth of the art star . Right , because we know of the Bosque yachts .

Right , we know of these young painters that movies are made of that , become celebrity in our eyes . But it's like there's so few of those those aren't lining the history of you know , art . There's a lot of 60 , 70 , 80 year olds who finally made it an art after lots of years . And when I say make it , I don't mean wealthy , I mean supporting the practice .

Right , paying rent , getting food , buying art supplies and on left . At the end of the day , does that make sense , right ?

You know it's , it's , it's your , it's disorienting , right , you don't always even know where you are . You know on the map , so to speak , right , there is a you know . This could this could be a completely separate conversation entirely , but I'm going to bring it up now because I didn't connect these dots until we start talking here .

But there is a quote from Alice in Wonderland and the Cheshire I can never say Cheshire .

And this is when that's from Alice in Wonderland by Lewis Carroll , and that's , you know , of course , when Alice was , you know , asking for directions and didn't really know where she wanted to go . Right , if you don't know where you're going , any road will take you there .

So it's almost the exact , in a way the exact opposite , you know , of this quote that we're discussing , you know , today . But the takeaway from that quote for me is it's really important to have an idea about where you want to go , with the understanding that it's not permanent .

And this is something that I had , you know , thousands of conversations over the years in my previous life in the business world and talking about different goals and objectives with people you know , and I think that one of the sort of common misnomers about goals is that , especially long term goals is that once you pick a 5 , 10 , 20 , like that's the goal you

know , and that it can't change . And , man , I can't think of a single goal that I've , you know set . You know some I've hit way more than that I've missed . I can't think of a single one that was longer than a day that didn't evolve and change . You know , as time goes on , where different people you know today than we were , you know , hopefully .

You know last year , you know last month , for that matter , you know . So I think the . So a couple , couple softballs here , a just the . You know the importance of knowing , of having a target , with the full understanding that it's not forever . You know it may be something , probably will be something , that will be something that changes as you go .

The important thing is to have a destination . If you and I say you know , hey , we're going to go out , you know for lunch today , and you know we say let's go , let's go get some Italian , great , but then on the way we're like , oh you know what , actually there's this new barbecue place I wanted to check out . We can change the destination .

The important thing is that whoever's driving knows where the heck we're going and can make those little adjustments you know along the way . So maybe you can talk about just . You know the importance of having a willingness for the goal or for the destination to sort of adjust and evolve , as we do as artists and as human beings .

Right , there's all these different things , but then also , as the artist , you better have some pretty darn strong goals in the studio . I want my work to get to this point . I want to get here . You know , I want to work large scale . I want to work smaller scale .

Right , you have to have these goals with your work side by side with these goals for where you want your work to go in the end . Right , I love Antony Tapas . Right , I love the Spanish Informalist . I love that movement of work . I have a lot of resemblance in my work from those because I'm inspired by them and inspire me .

I want to do things with cement and with stucco and with cardboard the way Antony Tapas does it . I have goals for my work to take traits of those pieces and those styles I love within my work . Right . So I better be practicing and working on those regularly to get those in all the while pressing forward career-wise .

Right Now , I'm going to get really vulnerable here , because part of what we really want to do with this podcast is be vulnerable . Right , as working artists , I have big goals . I have galleries , I have dealers , I have 60 plus paintings out and sculptures in the world right currently in places .

Right , they're currently between California , houston and a few other places and it's out . I don't know what's going to happen with that right , is it going to sell ? Is it not going to sell ? It's probably going to sell less than more . Maybe , if I'm lucky , it sells more than less . But I don't know , you know .

And so when we get to that part that you just talked about in Langston's quote from Thank you , ma'am , if you really want to go right , if do you have the guts and the wherewithal to really battle in your studio and with yourself because I haven't sold a piece in a while All that works out Now it's real easy for me to sit in the corner of my studio and

go something's wrong , right , it doesn't mean something's wrong , right , it doesn't . Maybe it does . You got to listen to the negative and the positive . You have to take it all in and talk about . Why is it not selling , is it not ? What's the deal ? Oh well , new year , pandemic , right , you have all these things . But it's real easy to sit there and go .

This is too hard . This is so difficult right now and really , you know , get depressed over it honestly , like we artists . We're artists . We deal with those emotions . It's like man , maybe I'm just not good enough , maybe I'm not there yet . Well , instead , let's discover that there are ways of getting where I want to go through that .

Right , let's battle through , let's press through , let's keep going and go . How do I get past this ? How do I battle these ? I'm just going to create , keep creating work , keep creating work , keep pushing .

But when you think about who said this and when it was said , and all of the tremendous obstacles that , not knowing everyone's individual situation , everyone's path is different , but for the most part , most of us aren't dealing with his level of obstacles and things that he had overcome that were outside of his control .

So this is a situation where not just the quote itself , but the person who said it and the time that they were living in it matters a lot . So it's not to say , pretend that living a fairytale where everything's perfect , and that these very real challenges , the time that we're going through right now , aren't real .

Of course they are , but it's kind of back to that whole , I guess , interpretation or mindset I was talking about before , like can I control this ? Is this within my ? Is this in the four square feet that I occupy ? If yes , awesome . What can be done ? Let's figure out a way to solve it .

But everything else and I'm not trying , it's not a bury your head in the sand and pretend as though there's not a pandemic going on or that any of these things that are going out in the world that may or may not help or hurt us aren't there .

But how much time and energy we put into thinking about those things and pointing to those things is this is why things are or aren't happening . That's time that we would probably be better spent focusing on the things that we can control , which is , to your point , getting into a consistent practice and continue to make more new work , right .

How do you get your work out there ? What is your goal ? Is your goal just to make art ? Period , that's it , not share it with the world , not get it out there ? I mean , if that's your goal , I mean that's great . Like I'm an art for art's sake . I'm not in it to get rich . I'm not in it to get wealthy . I want to make money .

I want to sell paintings , I want people to hang them in their homes , I want galleries to sell them . But at the end of the day , I'm in it for art . I want to make the best art I can make over my lifetime until I'm gone from this planet and hopefully , because of my dedication to that , I create some really strong work in the process .

But I have to also spend time trying to get to the point where I can sell the work and it can be out there and people can buy it and hang it in their homes and put it in art fairs and museums , blah , blah , blah , which means I have to do work on that part . I have to research galleries .

I have to look at local galleries , texas galleries outside of Texas , different states . Where does my work fit ? How does it fit ? Who's going to like it ? Should I submit to this group show ? What residents should I apply to ? There's this whole other side of being an artist , outside of just creating the work .

But at the end of the day , if the work's not there , then all those people and all those places you're going after they're not going to take a chance on you if your work's not there yet . So it's a very delicate and difficult balance , but both are key and both are very important .

So if somebody came to you and said I know all I know for sure is I love making art , but I'm not sure I love being an artist .

I love being engaged in a creative practice , but I really don't know where I ultimately want to go , if we try to boil this down to a more tangible takeaway , what advice would you give somebody who's just sort of trying to figure out where they may even want to be shooting for or what a reasonable goal might be ?

You choose what you want to do . It's your choice . You don't have to listen to anybody else . It's your choice to decide how you want to navigate the art world and where you fit in it . Just because we love to paint doesn't mean we're not supposed to be an art critic or an art blogger or an art writer . We can still create .

But maybe our fit in the art world is to write about art . Maybe our fit in the art world is beyond creating . But this is the best time in the history of the world , probably , to be an artist , because you have so many options today that didn't exist 10 , 15 , 20 years ago .

So if an artist doesn't want to go the gallery route , I don't want to do that . I don't want to give up commission . I don't want to invest in somebody else trying to sell my work for me . You can build a website and sell your own work from your website . You can use a platform like Satyart to sell your work .

You can use Instagram to just sell your work on Instagram period . It's all in your own hands . Your decision is yours and there's no wrong answer . There's no right or wrong . That's the wrong . Your choice is wrong . Well , that's what you feel like doing and do it . If your goal is to be in the gallery world , then there are ways to go that route .

If you want to sell from your website , well , you got to get good at doing those things . You got to learn how to sell . You got to learn how to build your website and do shopping cart stuff and all those tedious things that most artists don't want to do . But you have options today that didn't exist .

You could start your own virtual gallery and show their artists right and Build something that's just a community of artists , where you have a virtual gallery where you're showing artwork of other artists that you've met on Instagram around the world . Right now you're helping other artists .

You're becoming a curator right , plenty of curators on Instagram you know , from the Alexander Jackerts to the you know abstract dukes to Minute 16 all these great , you know curators who have brilliant eyes and they're just curating art , probably because they love it .

They may have been artists at one point in their life or they love to paint or create , but they realize I have a lot more strength in this arena than in this one . So there's no wrong place . It's just figuring out where you're most comfortable and where you really want to go .

I've shared the story with a number of people over the years , but I was a guy shows , I was probably in college and we were spending the weekend at a buddy's buddy's house or buddy's Lake Place right in his and his dad had been very successful and had , you know , run and sold numerous businesses , real , real , nice like place .

Anyway , we're sitting down to dinner one night and we're just kind of talking to Bob and picking his brain and , and you know whatever , just asking questions , really indirect questions , but basically like , hey , I don't know , we maybe have a place , I just some day .

You know , one of the things that he said that always stuck with me was one of his first businesses was in garbage disposal . You know , he said I saw an opportunity To buy a garbage company trash , trash disposal company and Everybody thought I was , I was crazy . You know the people that knew me the best that what do you do ?

What do you want to be hauling garbage ? And I forget this . He said I didn't want to be hauling garbage , I didn't want to be involved in the garbage business , but I realized that that was something that made complete sense for me to do to get to where I ultimately wanted to go . And I think about that just in a much more .

You know much more simple terms , but all the things you know . So , sharon , you know a bit about my story . You know , when I left the business world , I was like , oh sweet , don't have to worry about . You know emails or schedules , or you know having to , and it's like dude , like wake up .

You know that these are realities of pretty much anything that you might , you know , want to do . So there's always going to the point is , there's always going to be an element or pieces of what we want to do that we're not going to love . It doesn't mean that we're not doing what we're supposed to be doing .

It just means that you know there are things that we may not love , every single aspect of you know . You know , fill in the blank with your dream career and somebody who's walking that walk today is waking up being like Damn it , I got to do . You know I want to be a professional athlete . Okay , cool , that person's got to wake up .

You know , sore , hardly able to . You know limp their way to the bathroom in the morning and they got to get ready to go perform every day . You know , whatever , fill in the blank , but there's always going to be something that you don't love doing .

It's important to embrace the necessity of doing those things , understanding that they serve , you know , the bigger goal , right , yeah , and I mean it's you got to got to work at it .

So I've got spreadsheet after spreadsheet of Dream galleries , galleries I fit in , galleries , I want to be in someday on spreadsheets , right , and I keep track of All these things . And you know , I was going through yesterday .

I was spending time literally just going through my spreadsheet because and there's a lot of those galleries that unfortunately close their doors during the pandemic . It was heartbreaking and so . But I'm on spreadsheets , I'm researching residencies and where do I fit ? Is this a good residency to apply for ?

You know , looking at all the things they require , all the things that you know come with that residency , researching it , looking at the curators , looking at the jurors for group shows , researching people . Oh , I heard about these new curators in Fort Worth or in Dallas . Who are they ? Where they from , what kind of art do they like ?

So I spend that time doing that shit work and then making notes and keeping track because , man , it's so easy for me to forget I spent so much time painting in my studio .

I'm so focused on the work that if I don't write it down and keep a spreadsheet of it , I'm going to forget everything I saw earlier that morning when I get in studio mode and I'm working . So , yeah , it's those two sides I talked about earlier .

Right , you want to spend as much as you time of your time making , but you got to spend time researching and trying to find out where you fit , if that's your goal . But I tell my artists all the time that I've mentored experiment , experiment with things , figure it out where's your fit .

You know what are ways you could bring in a little money on the side to pay for new materials . Can you just sell $50 paper pieces and studies on Instagram ? You know you sell 10 of those 50 bucks . It's a good little check to you know . Go buy some paint , get some canvas and some supplies . So experiment the hell out of it .

You know , I think it's important to begin with the end in mind , right to have to have at least an idea , that's current , of what the destination is and what we're trying to accomplish , but also then being able to reverse , engineer back to okay , what are the checkpoints along the way .

You know , for somebody who maybe doesn't have a mentor or doesn't have access to someone who , you know , knows a little bit more than they do , you know , gosh , how do I ? You know , how do I , how do I figure this out , like , how do I get , how do I make something more tangible , more short term ? You know , to know that I'm , you know , on the way .

That's not easy question .

Lofty goals , right , no small , no small goals . Right , this is a very rare percentage of artists that actually get to live that life . But those are my goals and that's where I'm at , no idea how to get there . So I just read , man , I studied , I researched my butt off . I have read so many artist journals and you know artist writings and books Constantly .

And I found that my confidence grew because I read all the art books right , how to do it , what to do all those things . But then I got more into the philosophical side of art .

So I started reading those books and then I found , by reading artist journals that just gave me so much confidence to read stories and read from true , from the artist words , their struggles , that they had no idea how to do it either , whether it's 1920 , 1940 , 1960 , that they had no idea how to do it either , and so I kept hearing their voices , male and

female , you know , saying the same words I'm saying today , or I said four years ago that I may say in two years , but it was just this echo . There's an echo chamber right which to me was a confidence builder . Picasso said it , joe Miro said it , frank Enthaller said it , joe Mitchell said it and , you know , george O'Keeffe said it .

I keep hearing these artists that that I love saying things that I was saying right now . Right , it just gave me that confidence to go listen . These are the artists in museums , are the ones we know . For me to hear them say , to know what I have put in front of me for my own goals , was just a confidence builder .

Like , at the end of the day , we need to be building confidence in ourselves and I found for me that's been the best practice to build that confidence as I went out and tried to hit these milestones or try to , you know , figure ways to get my work out into the world I want to be in .

And you know , unless you do that research , unless you do that reading and really dig in , you know all you're doing is all you're able to do really is is just , you know , look at the finished work , the best of the best , you know the , the credits and all of the accomplishments , and say , oh , that just must have been that way for them .

You know the entire time , which , of course , is not , is not true ? I'm curious for you , you know I don't . It sounds as though your , your overall objective , you know , has not , has not changed since you decided to , you know , go full time . But what ? I'm curious , how many ?

Could you give an example or two of how sort of the path you know may have , you know , changed , how there have been some twists and turns along the way that you just , you know , couldn't out of , known , you know were coming , but just ended up being a part of the , you know the overall

story ?

And so when I was always doing little shows , you know , here in their group shows in Dallas , denton area , austin , fort Worth , and I was doing a lot of my own shows .

So friends of mine , we would , we'd go empty out of barn and Denton , texas , and sweep it out and hang work and invite everybody out and , have you know , two , three , 400 people show up for an art show and it was just one night openings . But I'd find apartment complexes that had a hallway and show my work there .

Coffee shops , like it's always trying to build the resume , right , that's the key . Show work anywhere Doesn't matter . My house , I would , you know , empty the house and do a show in the house . I do it in the garage . When we had a house , like always trying to fill the resume with shows , right , and then that , you know , took a turn .

People would start to notice . And so you know what , get in a group show in a gallery in Dallas or in Fort Worth or Houston or other places . You know . You know , you know the Texas biannuals , type things like that , where it's New Texas artist series , like you know , weaving my way in . And then , honestly , instagram was the big jump .

You know , when Instagram started to explode is when I started to really share my process and share my work and you know , as Austin Cleon says , I was a document documentarian of what I did . When I read his book show your work I went , oh , now I need to start showing how I do it and what I do and see if I can get any traction .

Started to be really vulnerable about my struggles and talking about it , and not just my struggles with work but my struggles with being a working artist . And that vulnerability I think led to people starting to take notice at a time when art really exploded on Instagram .

And so then I had some galleries and dealers start reaching out here and there and there were some that were failures that you know , wonderful people that I did stuff with , but then nothing flew . You know , nothing really happened . But CV notch on the CV .

Right , I can add a line on that resume which is important Did a residency in Budapest got accepted to certain residencies , I turned down and so it was kind of all over the place , but just kind of trying everything I could and I learned I made mistakes along the way , because gallery owners would say , hey , you should never do X and I'd go shoot .

I had no idea and they go . Well , sorry , sorry to be the bearer of bad news , but we can't work with you now because you , you know , had prices on your website . We were interested , now we're not .

So it's like you know , you've learned these little things that are , you know , not accepted or are accepted , and you just have to kind of go with the flow and change it , change as you go and as you learn . If that answers the question , it does .

You want to go if you really want to go , and I think that discovered words really important as well . You know , if you think about and just break down like what it means to discover something , it's not being handed . You know a playbook , it's not being told hey , oh , you want to go there . Just , yeah , take a right , take a couple of lefts , go .

You know it'll be on the right . You know there's a discovery process and the only way to do something , especially on a path like this one , where it's not a straight line , is to be engaged in the process of discovering , and a lot of it comes down to faith right and trust that , yeah , all right , this is going to take me .

If it does a tear point , if it doesn't take me in the exact direction I'm trying to go , it'll at least . You know Thomas Edison , you know crossed off , you know whatever 10,000 ways that you know to not make a light bulb right . So I think just embracing the discovery of all of it is probably a good you know , just you know thing to keep in mind .

Understanding that you know , discovery doesn't just happen where you walk right to the X mark on the spot and find the treasure . You got to dig , get a look . You got to dig a lot of empty , empty holes before you hit . Paid art right .

You know , as you're creating and spending time like man , live for discovery , like if you're just going through the motions every day and you're not trying to really discover things in your work itself . You know what are you , why are you doing it , why are you creating ? Like live for that discovery .

I mean , I find it all the time I go oh , why haven't I ever thought of that ? Or oh , my gosh , you know , that's how they did it , right ? I'm always trying to find those moments where it's like this boom , you know , as Bosque out would say , you know , boom , duck man , you know , it's like , there it is , that's it , wow , that's beautiful .

How did I do that , you know ? And then take it to the next step , like I think that's why Picasso was such a genius in his work . He was always , always on the search for discovery . You know what I mean ? He knew he couldn't get to something new if he wasn't constantly trying to discover . And what happened ?

He continually created new , new , new idea , new idea , new idea . Right ? He knew that the vision was so far ahead of him . If he wasn't sprinting towards it hard , he may not get there . Instead of walking towards it , right , he's like head down working . So yeah , live for discovery .

Yeah , realize that the journey is required , and if we don't find a way to embrace and enjoy the process , then , best case , we're only going to be fulfilled , you know , and happy at the very end of the finish line , which that's not a , that's not a life that I'd be too excited about . So , yeah , the journey matters .

Go buy Langston Hughes books , but especially if you're an American man , you need to go learn about somebody that is a backbone of American poetry and fiction and literature , who withstood more odds than most of us can even imagine at a time . And take it even a step further and go research the Harlem Renaissance as well .

I think you're going to be blown away by the impact that the Harlem Renaissance had on the art world and its future in America , especially in New York , which you know , we all know , is the Mecca of the art world . So do yourself a favor and do a little little research this week . I love that .

Anything else , before we close , nope , find Nathan and I on Instagram . We'd love to love to hang out and talk to you . So if not , then we'll see your faces or see your texts or your , your voices another time . But tune in . We'll see you on the next episode .