Imitation and Innovation in Art: Navigating the Dance: From Basquiat to Wes Anderson to Sylvia Plath.

So , if you're listening , write down some of the names that you hear , because there will be some that you do know and there may be some that you're not aware of , and we're probably going to pull from artists , fashion designers , writers , poets , art educators .

I think we're going to be all over the board as we talk about one of my favorite subjects that at times can be quite controversial , depending on where you are in your art journey , and so we're going to go to Japan for our initial quote . That's going to start our conversation . Are you ready to roll with that , nathan ? Let's rock and roll .

Yohi is a Japanese fashion designer in Tokyo and Paris and he started out really as a master tailor alongside some very well-known tailor and fashion designers and he's won multiple awards for his contributions to fashion .

Born in Tokyo , graduated from Keio University with a degree in law actually in 1966 , gave up his legal career to help his mom in the dressmaking business and I love this story and that's where he learned how to be a tailor , basically . And then he further went on to study fashion design at Bunkett Fashion College and got a degree in 1969 .

And this quote I've read in multiple books . They seem to kind of bounce around in multiple books and this quote says start copying what you love , copy , copy , copy , copy and at the end of the copy you will find yourself and like I said , this is a controversial subject amongst artists Stealing , copying , looking at lots of art .

These things can create quite hefty conversations . How do you feel about ?

So let's just maybe start with why it's pretty obvious , but let's just break down why it's controversial or what the two sides of the you know coin might be .

There are new ideas in art , there are new things in art , but completely rediscovering something new that comes , those are few and far between in the history of art . We know those names , we have their pictures on our wall , their quotes in our books . But when you want to be a great artist , you have got to steal and copy . That's practice .

That's educating yourself , not just your brain , but also your technique , your gesture , your movement , how you paint . And we're all influenced by something Our subconscious stores the things that we love in our head more and more .

So , even if you say I will never copy , I will never steal , you are copying and you are stealing because your subconscious is holding on to your observations and it's coming through in what you create and what I'm saying and what the quotes we're going to talk about today , saying there's nothing wrong with that .

That's how you go from being okay to good to great , from weak to strong .

You know before that , but everything you know from that point forward has been in some way inspired or influenced by something else or some other things . Yeah .

How are they utilizing color ? Are they utilizing texture to create shadow and form and shape , like ? So you're going to go look at the greatest portrait artists in history and you're going to see how they did this . Why did they do this ? How does this work ? How do these things work ?

Even if you're a landscape artist and you're painting plain air and looking at everything , you should still be going to the galleries and looking at the best landscape artists in history . Why did they do that ? How did they do this ?

You know , if you just go out and set up your canvas and just start painting , right , you're going to be able to paint , but you still have to learn . That's why some artists go to art school . That's why some artists stay and get their MFA's and do those things you know , as an abstract artist , there are so many artists that I love .

And I have this wonder of how in the world did Sai Tuambli write the way he wrote on canvas ? Or how did he do the marks that he make ? How did Joan Mitchell , you know , build her gestures , or build a coon and create those gestures in their work ?

And so you practice them , because you love them and it does something to and you want your art to be or fit within that realm of those artists and how their work looks . And you have to practice . So what are you going to do ? You're going to copy , right , like Yohe says , or steal I'm stealing the way that Sai makes his whatever . But here's the deal .

This is what I love about the quote At the end of the copy you'll find yourself . At the end of it , you'll find yourself Like I just love that quote . And then Jeff Goyne's , the writer , has a book that is called right here , just so I real artists don't starve .

And there's a , there's a quote that he has in there where he says the best artists steal , but they do so elegantly , borrowing ideas from many sources and arranging them in new and interesting ways . You have to know your craft so well that you can build on the work of your predecessors , adding to the body of existing work .

So you're stealing , but you're doing it elegantly . You're borrowing ideas , but you're rearranging those ideas in new ways and interesting ways . I can't tell you how many times I've heard this and said it myself , from art school graduates or MFA students not a lot of MFA students , but a lot of art grads for sure Especially when you're young .

I said it I'm not looking at art . I'm not going to go look at any art because I want to be original , and I love this Cicero quote where it says to be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain a child .

If you want to mature , you better be studying what came before you , you better be looking , and if you really want to be mature , grab all those ideas and start to create you over time through all those ideas . Right , david Bowie ? The only art that I can see , the only art I study , is the art I can steal from Quentin Tarantino .

I've stolen from every movie ever made .

I don't think anyone's going to accuse him of being whatever derivative in a negative way , but because he's consumed so much and paid attention and studied what he loves from different elements of film .

That's what has to the original quote copying , copying , copying just being influenced , absorbing different ideas and different styles and different influences , led him to what has become one of the most distinctive and most copied styles that there's ever been .

If your friend tells you it looks just like somebody else's work , keep going , bring it back to him again . If over time they're still saying it looks like somebody else's work , go find another thing to do you just don't have it . But I love like .

But Quentin Tarantino he gives it credit , right Spaghetti Westerns , kung Fu , the old Kung Fu films , seven Samurai , like he'll literally name . This is where I got this . This is where I got this . I think I don't know if you've ever watched the side to side comparisons of Wes Anderson's influences and scenes in his films . It's magical Peanuts .

He was a huge Peanuts fan , so there's scenes in his films that are literally taken from Charles Saltz cartoons and represented within the scene . French films , a lot of French films there's . You can watch on YouTube side by side comparisons of his influences with certain scenes in his films . And he's given shout outs . Right , you've influenced me .

I give shout outs . You know what I mean . My , my man , there's a lot of sigh in this work and it came out because I've been reading all of his books and so it's coming out in there and I've had people wow , that piece looks like a side twombly piece . Oh , that piece looks like an Anthony Tapas piece and I say thank you so much for that .

They're one of my heroes and it definitely came out in my work and I'm proud of it , so right .

So this is one of my favorite quotes on this . On this subject and this is a quote by Paul Schrader , who's a screenwriter director worked with Scorsese on four different films , including Raging Bull , taxi Driver , last Temptation of Christ , american Jigolo . Most recently , did the Card Counter . Have you seen that yet ? I haven't watched yet .

With Oscar Isaacs , right , it's fantastic . Yeah , it's fantastic , yep . And then first reformed with Ethan Hawke from a couple years ago , it was another awesome one . But I didn't realize this until I did a little homework here .

He's from Grand Rapids , michigan , and graduated from Calvin College , so I'm pretty sure he's one of my people , one of my Dutch descendants from . Grand Rapids , michigan . So , anyway , here's a quote .

He said and this is I'm not going to read the entire thing , but he references numerous films that had influenced , and this is an interview after first reform came out . He said I was stealing all over the place . The secret of stealing is that you have to steal around . You can't go back to the same 7-Eleven every time they catch you .

So you go to the floral shop , then you go to the gas station , then you go to that hot dog stand that nobody goes to and you keep grabbing this stuff and eventually somebody will think you made it up . Yep , I just love that , right .

So I mean , it's just you just think about somebody who's literally going from store to store and trying to diversify where they're pulling things from . But I just love that . It's actually from a podcast that I would recommend the Moment with Brian Koppelman Really good podcast , but that was an interview that he did back in May of 2018 .

So that whole interview is fantastic , but I just I love that quote because you just think about being diverse in your influences . I mean , this is going to be a common theme , right . If you pull from just one thing , then it is kind of , just like that .

One thing , one of the things I want to ask you about , because you've talked about this as well early in your art career , where you were hard and heavy on Basquiat right , and how did that I mean somebody asked a better question how did that sort of evolve over time from and I don't want to put words in your mouth , but from what I my understanding was

that was your predominant or primary influence , to now , however , many years later , where it's a lot more diverse and you've stolen from more ?

You know , jean-michel was not your Jackson Pollock name at the time in the 90s , right , like we in art school , we all knew who Jackson Pollock was . We didn't know who Basquiat was and he wasn't talked about

. Well , the wonderful film by Julian Schnabel about Basquiat came out , the narrative film , and it rocked my world , like completely rocked my world . I had no idea what Neo expression is or was at that time , no clue . I didn't know who Julian Schnabel was . I didn't know who any of the .

I didn't even know who the informalists were at that time , like , I had no idea . I knew abstract art , abstract expressionism , the things I loved and they're the typical names that you would know , right , in abstract art or abstract expression , and I love Dadaism , I love surrealism , those things . As a young , you know art student and , honestly , you .

When I saw the film Bosch , yeah , I don't know what happened to me , like something inside , about this person who I couldn't at that time . I could not name a black artist if anybody asked me to . And that is horrible . And it wasn't just that I didn't know any black artists , they weren't being taught about . Nobody knew Like it was .

Nobody was teaching about any black artists at that time in art history books , right Like this is terrible . And so man , the film , the music , the story , what he was , how he was creating , what he was doing , just did something to my soul and I immediately started dressing like him , wearing sport coats , you know around .

And I started dumpster diving and painting on wood and , you know , building frames like stretchers , like he did , Like I emulated him . And I started writing around campus with chalk and markers . I started writing my own quotes .

You know my Samo type quotes and my favorite quote from the film or one of his old Samo graffiti pieces was Samo as Samo for president , samo's political ideology , like all the things that he would write all over New York with his buddy Aldeas . And I started writing things and making up my own quotes .

Art is an oven at 450 degrees in 15 minutes , like making up my own things and writing Samo for pres and my nickname kind of became Samo for pres , and so it was like it just , and everything I did was that kind of neo expressionist style .

But that's what really excited me about art and how I could express myself in this way with spray paint and oil sticks and things I never even thought to use in art . And I mean , that was my , that was my big intro , for sure , and I copied everything . It didn't look just like it , but it looked . You could tell . Oh , he likes Basquiat .

So maybe that film was what led you to , you know , looking into the schnobbles , right , and I think it's important to , if there's a you know , probably a few different takeaways from today , but that's one of the things that I think is really important to emphasize is the value of chasing your curiosity and just going where those rabbit holes .

I didn't know , I wanted to see that , but I actually did and thank you very much .

But it just chased those rabbit holes , you know , and and and , chased down you know where , where , where it might be , because it may be the original thing that you stick with , that becomes a major influence , but it's it may be the third , fourth , fifth , seventeenth thing down the line that actually ends up being , you know , a more significant , you know long

term , you know influence .

I spend , you know , four , five , six , eight hours in the studio every day painting , and I've got this collection of ideas and techniques and how people use medium and how , how they created , why they did this , what size , what scale , what material , like , I've got all these things in there that I'm grabbing and taking and , oh my gosh , paper on canvas , on

paper on oh , it's cardboard , let's . But it's not about like who I'm taking it from , it's like where am I going with it ? And over time , the goal is over time , it becomes you . But you're also furthering the ripple of water of what was created before and you're taking it in places that maybe could have never gone before .

Another quote I love by Gary Panter says , and it goes with this one If you have one person you're influenced by , everyone will say you're the next whoever . But if you rip off 100 people , everyone will say you're original .

So what your previous quote as far as you know , where you take things to talk about how every significant movement was very few exceptions came from a group of artists who spent a lot of time together , who spent time in each other's studios , who would show one another their work and would respond to right . So talk more about that , yeah .

But most people don't know that Burt Modette , the female , was one of the largest influences on that group of men , right , and it's like the things she started doing in painting . They saw , they loved , they stole her ideas . You know what I mean , because they're all in each other's studios every day . Wow , look at that , let's do this , I'll do this Now .

They got credit for it . She's starting to get credit for it today , but they got the most credit for it . They're the most notable

. But it influenced what changed art at that time . You know you fast forward , even to the surrealists . Get together and they create their own manifesto . If you're going to create surrealism , you must sign on the dotted line and it must follow these things . Right ? You got the dottas , you got this group of artists . You've got .

You know the abstract expressionists from New York that all hung out together and spent time together and influenced each other and can read so many artists from the 20s , from Joe Miro and all the guys around him , were like we're just trying to be Picasso , like we were all trying to be Picasso .

We copied everything he did for a while because we wanted to be like him , and it's funny that the history of art is shaped by these things and these movements .

Right , it's a group of artists stealing ideas from each other , you know , and working together , and obviously there's ugliness that is a part of that as well , but it is how things become developed over time .

But some of them have similarities in their work , but you can tell who is who as well , because all those ideas still came from them and all they were taking . They continued to develop their own style out of these things they were taking and stealing from .

You know , as artists are like , I don't know what my voice is , I don't know where I am . Well , what do you love ?

Yeah , you know what I have artists like well , I don't know , but this is what I feel , this is the art that I'm drawn to and it's like well , maybe you're more of a minimalist than you are an abstract expressionist , because the thoughts and the things you're telling me fit more under minimalist ideas and things than really heavy , thick , abstract expressionist ideas

. And that artist will go and then study minimalism and go , wow , yes and no , right , I do feel this , but I also want to express deep opinions and things . Maybe I'm a abstract minimalist , right , you kind of create your own . You know where you're going and what you're doing .

You know I've got another artist in a program right now who you know is dealing with studying trauma and neuroscience , things like that , and she's kind of developing her own terms for what she is in her art and what she creates , and we're looking at all these other artists and influences and practicing the things that they do to turn them into your ideas and

into your practice , if that makes sense .

You know , now , I'm not claiming to be as good as whatever artists I might be citing , but the fact that they did it gives me permission to do it as well and to try it and to integrate it into everything else that I'm taking in , right , well , yeah .

Certain materials don't go with certain materials oils , acrylics there's a right way to use it , there's a right way to . You know what I mean . So it's like materials is different , but as far as ideas what you want to create , how you want to create it there are no nose . And if you spend time studying art , you will realize there are no nose .

So you know you've got a lot of crazy conceptual things that happen out there that you can argue is an art , is our whatever . But they're not taking no for an answer .

They are creating what they feel like they should create and putting it out into the world and it's either accepted or it's not , but they're putting it out there in the boldness that comes along with that as a whole . Another conversation for another episode .

He's a designer and filmmaker , but he gives a lot of like really tactical input on how to market , how to sell , how to just talk about your work and be properly compensated for it . So a lot of really good gems . I recommend following him .

But he said this is a recent quote , I think I pulled from Instagram but he said everything's a remix to make something new , copy , combine and transform . Copy , combine and transform something old into something new . Say or show something old in a new way .

And I think this , this kind of , speaks to the value of of not just diversifying your influences within you know , the art space , for example but also looking like inspiration is everywhere . I mean when your radar is up like it's all over . Whatever you're into , there's something in there .

Yeah , probably a whole bunch of things that you can , you know , sprinkle in . Maybe it , maybe it's obvious , maybe it appears , or maybe it's just something that you're because you're taking in new things , because you're a student of life in general and just absorbing a diverse set of information and influences , it's going to affect you positively , right ?

So it's funny as I , as I'm reading that just now , I'm thinking about like music and you know what you know . When hip hop started to sample , you know different things from , from previous .

You know eras from the 60s and the 70s specifically , like that became the hook and that became a thing , and taking something totally old , totally old , but something from whatever generations previous and given it a brand new spin , which in some cases is , you know , much better known than the original source material .

Right , yeah , but that's because again back to the Tarantino reference , because you know those artists were consuming a bunch of different work , I want to stick with music because you know , you and our both both big fans of , of music .

But I don't have a specific reference here , but you think about the number of times that you hear one of your favorite artists when they're asked who their influences are , and they'll say some obvious ones . We're like , oh yeah , I totally hear that . But then you'll also hear somebody like what ?

Like yeah , that's totally , you can't hear that in their sound at all .

And I guess my point is the things that , as visual artists , the things that we take in , it may or may not express itself , you know , in the work , but that doesn't mean that the influence isn't there , right , and because we're taking those things in , it's giving us a deeper well to kind of draw from .

He's like I don't listen to rock , I don't listen to much music outside of classical or old barbershop . You know type quartet , type music and things . And he would even say obviously we weren't a rock band , led Zeppelin , we were more jazz fusion . He didn't even listen to rock and roll . Then care for it .

You can't tell me that the classical music and the things he didn't listen to didn't influence the progressions and the timing and the things that they were doing at that time in music . That was different than so many other people and still last today .

On that , there's a quote by Marcel Duchamp and he says you think you're actually doing something entirely your own and a year later you look at it and you actually see the roots of where your art comes from , without even knowing it all . So the artist who is doing their homework over time will prove they've done their homework , so to speak .

Right , yeah , right . And there's plenty of quotes we could go into on . If you're only working with your ideas , you're not going to go very far . But if you're working with a whole lot of everybody's ideas and you're doing your homework , your work has ultimate room for growth .

So I wonder what's the case to be made for trying to insulate , going the opposite direction , right ? The case for not copying , the case for really trying to genuinely just come up with something that is truly original ? Is there a case to be made for that ? Because we're both clearly on team copy and steel , right ?

Yeah , I mean , let's talk about the other side of the coin .

Like every single artist in history who's developed something new was copying somebody else at some point and stealing from somebody else at some point that helped them transition to where they went .

You look at every facet of art history through time post cave painter that created their colors from grounds and spit them on a wall , and I love when Jerry Saltz talks about the origins of art and the way things worked . But it's like post that time . It's stealing , copy and then grow into your own .

So every , every major movement and art , you look at those artists and then you look five years prior to them changing the face of art . They look like somebody else or one of their heroes works . Right , that's that's . That's anything in life , that's music , that's playwriting , that's filmmaking , that's anything in the creative arts , that's dance .

Right there there's been constant forms and evolution and dance , and I think breakdancing , hip hop , stomp , like all these different new forms of dance that have started to show up on TV , show up in films and things where they haven't recognized before .

They're still coming from ancient forms of dance , from African tribes , dance from throughout history that start to form cultural happenings and evolutions within it .

You know , we talk about how there's never been a better time to educate yourself and to be influenced by a number of different things . There's also never been an easier time for somebody to just steal stuff , like literally grab an image and repurpose it like we're not pushing for that . That's completely different than what we're talking about .

Just just as a full disclaimer , right

? This is another quote that came up when I was so speaking of rabbit holes is in their quote that came up when I was looking for that . Paul Schrader quote , woody Allen . Well , I've stolen from the best . I mean I've stolen from Bergman , I've stolen from Groucho , I've stolen from Chaplin , I've stolen from Keaton , from Martha Graham , from Fellini .

I mean I'm a shameless thief , but again , citing your sources and just owning it . Like you know , I've been influenced by a lot of different things .

Steal from anywhere that resonates with inspiration or fuels your imagination . Devour old films , new films , music , books , paintings , photographs , poems , dreams , random conversations , architecture , bridges , street signs , trees , clouds , bodies of water , light and shadows . Select only things to steal from that speak directly to your soul .

If you do this , your work and theft will be authentic . Authenticity is invaluable . Originality is non-existent , and don't bother concealing your thievery . Celebrate it if you feel like it . In any case , always remember what John Luke Goddard said it's not where you take things from , it's where you take them to .

I was interacting with somebody on Instagram recently and he had some beautiful work and I just commented on this and he was a newer , younger artist and I said that's beautiful , like I definitely see the X influence in that , and he said , oh , I just someone just mentioned that to me the other day and I was like , really , so I have no reason not to believe

them . But I think it's important to realize that some of the influences that we have are very conscious , but there's plenty of others that are that were you're soaking stuff up on a subconscious level regardless , Right , so might as well educate yourself and give proper recognition to where those things are coming from .

I mean , if I'm a curator and you put an uninformed artist next to an informed artist and I have to choose which artist to do a solo exhibition with , in my gallery or in my museum , and I go and meet with this artist and do a studio visit and talk about art and influence the artist who can prove their homework , that can talk through these things , that can

. I'm not saying educated right , I'm not saying school , like MFA , undergrad . You can self educate and learn today as much as you can in an undergrad and MFA program . You just have to take the time to do it .

So if I'm a curator and I'm in a space with the person and they're informed about their work and why they do it , how they do it , who they study , what artists have influenced , what they're doing , where they've come to , and then the other artist who takes five minutes to just explain their work .

I'm sorry I'm going with the informed artist , I mean and there's there's more to just being a studio artist if you want to be in the gallery world . There's more than just creating , there's also learning , there's also showing up as well . It trust me , it goes far .

I wonder if you wouldn't mind sharing an example or two because I know you have with me in other conversations but where you've had a chance to open up some of those dialogues when you're at a museum , when you're at a gallery and just where that's open , open the door to , to have a new conversation and build a new relationship .

My mentor came out to the show Mako Fujimura , a Japanese , american abstract artist brilliant , definitely look him up , possibly read a few of his books as well , if you want to read Came to the show , but we we gave a lecture , a public lecture , one day with a big curator from the North Carolina area who has been a curator at major museums , contemporary museums

a brilliant woman , and you know we walked the gallery together and she asked tons of questions about my art , tons archival questions . Right , every , every major curate from a museum is going to ask you archival questions . And why is your work archival ? Why is it not ? What are you using ? Is that archival ?

Like things like that , right , but also I see some influence here . Yes , this influence is coming from here and she , she was doing it right , she was not leading me . She was like prove yourself .

Those moments are going to happen in art , like you're going to have people that are going to just talk with you and you have others who are going to come in and say prove yourself . And so be prepared . And I , luckily , I was prepared and so we're able to talk about these influences and how I've changed them and how they've Adapted in my work .

Why am I sewing ? Why am I not using these things ? What are the reasons for that ? Not just story , but I'm bringing our history . But we gave a lecture the next day to the community and I think , because I was informed and able to talk about these things , it made that lecture a lot easier .

Here I am with my mentor on the panel Right , who is a very educated artist who speaks all over the world about art and his work and how he creates and why he creates , and then this curator on the panel as well , and I was included in that conversation . My , I could actually answer and talk and I could hold my own and conversation .

And it's not because I'm some genius , it's because I study . I actually spend time In my studio studying work , going to museums , going to galleries , asking questions , talking to artists on instagram or on zoom or whatever , and just Surrounding myself with art . Any minute I have an minute . I'm an art nerd hundred percent , but it helps .

It does help in those situations , career wise .

It's going to motivate me , you know , to educate myself better , to learn more , and you know you've been at this longer than I have , so I'm learning from you every , every conversation . You know that , that we have right . So you know that's , I think , a product of just being willing to ask the question .

Yeah , hey , can we whatever dot , dot , dot , you know interact more ? Can I throw questions your way ? I mean , I think that that's part of the .

The response I don't say responsibility , that might be a little bit too strong , but of an artist or ever creative , is to , to , to be aware that I keep using that , keep come back that , that idea of having your radar up right but to look for Other , you know , mentors , peers , I mean whatever you want to call it but just people in your life .

we're going to to push you forward , we're going to motivate you , who are going to Inspire you to . You know , raise the bar and keep . You know , moving things forward right and adding to the conversation , as opposed to just , you know , pulling from it .

You know all these things and I think there's another quote I was looking for here that I had that really kind of goes oh yeah , don't worry about people stealing your ideas . If they're any good , you'll have to ram them down their throats anyways . Howard akin , who said that , how are they ? Can read it again don't worry about people stealing your ideas .

If they're any good , you'll have to ram them down people's throats anyways . How are they ? And the reason I'm saying that is because the reason I started my mentorship program .

I believe apprenticeship , mentorship , the willing to give advice and help , is a lost art today and I think , especially in the art world . It's something that used to exist for Centuries the apprentice , the master , the teacher , the student .

And there's so much fear in the art world that artist are afraid to share ideas , are afraid to say where their ideas come from . Artists are afraid to open up to the fifteen year old kid that loves your work and send you an instagram message . How did you do this ? What materials did you use ? Why do you do it and you don't answer ?

You know , I've kinda myself , I've kind of made Personal statement of I'm not gonna be that person .

I'm gonna be the person that answers the questions , that shares ideas , that's willing and it's open to teach and help others learn , because the art world scary and everybody doesn't know where it's going and how it works and it's constantly changing and adapting and there's new rules , unwritten rules , and there's new things to do that happen all the time .

Do something wrong . You do something right . You don't know what changes overnight , like I just made up a poem and our poem , but it's like who gives a shit of people steal your ideas if your ideas are good , they're gonna be stolen . number one yeah , if your ideas are good , somebody's gonna steal them , so that should be a confidence builder .

Wow , I must have done something , because a ton of people are starting to do this . But how do you really know people are gonna steal your ideas and how do you really know if it's good in the first place ?

But I think that , just more broadly , you know thinking about if you approach your art and I would argue you know life as well from an abundance mentality versus a scarcity mentality . It's a completely different paradigm in terms of how you think about things . Right like , yeah , you know I was come back to some of the , you know , recovery principles .

You know that . That that I've had to understand very well from from a 12 step standpoint . But some , you know , one of the things in a is you can't keep it unless you give it away . Right like right words , you know you sharing that , you know with that . You know 15 year old kid like that energizes you . I mean even just you explaining that .

You know I've had that even as as young as I'm , this whole process , you know even that experience that I've had of . You know , because I like to experiment with a lot of different .

You know materials and processes like dm's about how does this behave and what is Even just having to explain that , answer those questions , it deepens my own understanding , you know . It forces , forces you , forces me to think about like , oh , what is , how am I doing that ? Or what is you know ?

So it's a , it's a , it's a reciprocating , you know , sort of sort of cycle that that really it's , it's , it's fulfilling right to , because , let's be honest , if you're , if you're , if you're honest with yourself about where things are coming from , anyway , you're really not claiming , you know , complete ownership of any it's .

It is just that sort of broad , you know , collection of things that you've absorbed in overtime . I think about some , you know . Again , back to just diversifying influences , you know , from my time in the business world , you know there's a lot of different .

You know writers and books that had I been on the artistic , you know , full time artist path you know from the beginning never would have been exposed to you , but one of those guys Authors . You know Tony Robbins , but one of my favorite Tony Robbins quotes is success leaves clues . Success leaves clues . In other words , all right , this worked for somebody .

Yeah , presumably at a high level , if you're aware of it . So what are the clues , what are the common denominators and how can you connect some of those Seemingly disparate concepts you know in a novel and unique way ?

the only way you're going to be able to connect those dots is if you're freaking , paying attention yeah to what is working for other people , not just in the space that you're trying to be successful in , but broadly right . Just pain , interesting . What about that works , you know , for that person ? What about this thing over here ?

Could I apply to this thing that I'm going to know ? Because , you know , I think the more , the more random or the more out there you know that that connection might be , the more novel it's gonna appear when you , when you bring it to a different space , you think about food , for example .

Right , like I don't know when exactly , the whole you're I think you're more of a foodie than I am but when the whole , you know , trend of a fusion came out , right , I don't know when that was , but maybe it's been around for a long time . It probably hasn't before it was even called that , right .

But when we're combining you know these , these different you know ethnic cuisines and and seasonings and things like that , oh my gosh , when you combine a and b now you get something that's completely unique but that comes from absorbing , consuming a lot of different influences and paying attention to what about this works , or there , and what might I be able to

apply over here ?

And it's like , yeah , you know , taking that a step further is like if you're successful in becoming you , through all your copy , in your theft of things , like , there will be clues of why you're being successful . Right , all those things . But then also you still , in order to get there , you gotta put yourself out there . Yeah , you know what I mean .

And in the art world there's a lot more failure than success . So thinking about Sylvia Plath , talking about her recognizing that she's trying by her rejection letters , right , so for her books , for her poetry and putting them out there to publishers and constantly getting rejected , right To her . That proves I'm doing something , I'm trying .

You know , when we talk about success leaving those clues , you know that failure I mean you have to put it out there . You have to try to fail first , right , to find some success , especially in , you know , pretty much any of the art . You're gonna get a lot more nos than yeses most of the time .

But a lot of artists don't even put stuff out there in a manner that they're going to get rejected or find success . You know , and that's you know .

We got to spend all that time finding us and everything else out there that we love and constantly putting those pieces together to form the work that we are confident enough in it being our work and not just copy of so much other work .

Right , and then we put it out there and see , you know how the audience , how the art world , takes it , and sometimes it might be you got more work to do , you know , and other times it might be wow , this is fantastic and this fits and we're gonna run with you .

So don't let rejection spoil what you're doing in the studio and how you're pushing and learning and working Like . Don't let those like I experience it every month .

I feel like rejection for in some level in the art world and it'd be very easy for me to get down on myself and not continue to study and not continue to copy and practice and grow in my work .

I didn't think about it till just now , but just , you know , not just fear , not just rejection , but fear of rejection or , in the context of this conversation , fear of being called out for , you know being too derivative , or whatever term you might want to use of copying or you know stealing .

You know , in the , in the negative sense , right Like that's a thing . Sure , that's certainly something that that I've experienced , you know a lot , especially when I'm , I'm and I'm intentionally , you know exploring something that that I've gotten picked up from another source . You know there is that , that that fear of like .

Oh well , you know and I think to your point earlier , I'll ask you too if there's anything you would add to this . But you said something to the effect of just making sure that you're , that we're citing our sources , that were , you know , being being open about like .

Yep , I'm influenced by this and and not trying to hide from it , but actually owning it and and celebrating that . You know that I understand that correctly from what you mentioned before , or in part one probably .

I work on it again over the years and and my goals are so it definitely be interrupted with a lot of art making and then sitting down to write .

There's tons of ideas within my , my novel that I've taken from other artists , my favorite writers David Eggers , nick Hornby , merritt the Poet , mary Oliver and then fiction you know my favorite fiction writers and from my favorite filmmakers , from Wes Anderson and from stories that I love , charlie Kaufman , screenwriters and things .

And you know William Burroughs says all writing is facts . Just cut up it's a collage of words that you've read or that are overheard and so it's like . But when I wrote my query letter for publishers , I also have to put in this letter what is this book like , what are the similarities , what I cite my sources I'm not going to hide from .

I wanted to start writing books after I read High Fidelity by Nick Hornby . I want to write because of , and I'm taking all these ideas and facts and things I've gathered and the way other guys have written and the way that other gals have written and I combine it into how I wrote . Same thing with art , but it was for me .

It was just another new learning experience of that copy , that theft , that how to be great at something you do by taking the wealth of information that others have done before you and then finding your voice within that Totally .

He accumulates things with the same enthusiasm that a little boy stuffs his pockets . The scrap heap and the museum are embraced with equal curiosity . He takes snapshots , makes notes and records impressions on tablecloths or newspapers , on backs of envelopes or matchbooks . Why one thing and not another is part of the mystery .

But he is omnivorous and there's a couple of things from that , based on what you just said and that I want to add as well

.

But to your point , like you may or may not ever be a , it may or may not be your goal I don't know to be a published author or to take I don't know how far you want to take that , but I do know about you that you've been involved in film , that you produced an award-winning documentary , that you're involved in writing , and I think that there's so much

to be said for just trying different things , even if it's not going to be your thing , right , like I think about just the completely random interest in things . That or you can connect the dots , you know .

I think about how you know my passion for , you know , photography and videography , how that lends to my understanding of composition and understanding my exploration and my attempt at understanding composition and lighting , you know , and things along those lines , but one hand always washes the other , right , like it's impossible to sort of , you know , separate out .

This is just , you know , writing , this is writing tie , this is just filmmaking tie , this is just artist tie , or even broadly , even beyond , you know , and things that may or may not , on the surface , have anything to do with anything else . You know we're collecting , we're stuffing our pockets .

You know whether it comes from the scrap heap or the museum , you know , it doesn't even matter . The thing I love about that is the very last word omnivorous . In other words , I can take , I can take meat , I can take fruit , I can take vegetables , I can take any food , anything edible , and I can convert that into fuel .

Right , yeah , you know , as opposed to you know , if you're limited to just you know , one specific food source , survival becomes a lot more , a lot more difficult . So I just , I love , I love that idea of just being an omnivorous you know consumer .

And the part of this as we kind of begin to wrap up and think about how , how , what , what we can do with this or what might be . The tactical application , you know , to me is taking snapshots , making notes , recording impressions , capturing those things as they come along so that it's in the well right .

So there's the there's a subconscious absorbing of just things that sort of wash over us and influence us without our our necessarily seeking it out or thinking in those terms .

But to me , you know , this quote here is a reminder that it's also incumbent upon us as creatives , as as artists , to to be intentional about capturing those things , about writing those things down , about taking those pictures . And I've got random folders and notes and things like I mean it ain't organized .

So I just I think it's important for us to be aware of yep , we're going to absorb some things just naturally by consuming them , but we also need to be aware that that there's a lot of value in proactively capturing those things and writing those things down . Yep , your thoughts .

And you know my my favorite thing about going to art museums is going to the art museum library if they have it . Some art museums have massive libraries of books and I go through the museum and then I go into the library and I grab and I make a stack on the table and I have my phone out and I'm just taking snapshots of everything that speaks to me .

Right , this collection of ideas . And we should be mental hoarders as artists . I truly , truly believe that , because that influences our work and informs how we talk and think and create and all these things , and I mean that's all I do every day .

I mean I'm blessed to be able to do that and it's taken me a long time to get to this point , to be able to hoard regularly ideas and art and consume these things in such a way that helps me create out of the chaos , which I have a quote I want to read about Louis Hyde , one of my favorite books , the Gift .

I suggest every artist reads the Gift and it talks about really kind of the history of art coming from a gift , like a tradable gift that was used in ancient history to kind of commissioned work right Michelangelo , and being hired as a trade things and then to art as a quantity and how to balance that art is truly still a gift but yet it also is a commodity

and how do you balance that between the two ? So I suggest everybody get , go out and buy that book . So this quote says most artists are brought to their vocation when their own nascent gifts are awakened by the work of a master and influence . That is to say , most artists are converted to art by art itself .

Now , finding one voice isn't just an empty and impurifying oneself of the words of others , but an adopting and embracing of affiliations , communities and discourses . Inspiration could be called inhaling the memory of an act never experienced . Invention , it must be humbly admitted , does not consist in creating out of the void but out of chaos .

So what he's saying at the end there invention , the originality , the newness , the , your voice . That is your work and does no longer look just like other pieces of work . It looks like your work . It does not consist in creating out of the void the just yourself , the just this .

It comes out of the chaos , the hoarding , the collecting , the ravaging of thoughts and ideas from so many other things and other cultures and other . All of that is where invention comes from , not out of the void of just trying to do it alone and by yourself .

There's a Scott Adams who's responsible for most notably , dilbert the . I don't know how long that that cartoon has been going , but I remember him . I think it was in the Tim Ferriss podcast , but he talks about how he's not the best . I'm paraphrasing based on my memory but I'm not the best artist . They're way better , you know , artists than me or people .

People draw much better cartoonist . I'm not the funniest . There's . There's people who are way , way , way better at comedy and much funnier . But the combination , but I'm I'm okay , I'm pretty good as an artist and I'm I'm pretty funny , and so it's the combination of those things right .

So it's kind of that Venn diagram of influences and life experiences to where I mean , like I've kicked myself , I spent some time , you know , in all the you know 20 plus years that I spent , you know , really in the business world and not really doing much of anything with art .

You know , and I did for a period of time , have some regret , like man I you know where . Where could I be , you know , had I just taken the more you know traditional route to get to here ?

You know , and I didn't spend too much time there because I quickly realized it all , it all leads to this , right , all the the the Venn dot , it's not just two circles , right , it's , it's a number of different things and experiences and influences . Right , like you know , I use a lot of , you know , construction techniques and materials .

You know , in my work I'm a shitty , you know trades person , right , like anybody hiring me to do anything . But you know , maybe haul haul some heavy stuff around and even that is that that window Probably passes . I hate you , but you know . But I know enough about like kind of how to use different materials and how to use different .

You know different techniques . I mean , that's just one example of many , but you know , to your example of your , your experience and your knowledge base as a writer , you know your experience and knowledge base . You know that you spent in marketing and advertising and those types of things .

Right , like it all it all leads to wherever you're at today and how you're going to filter . That's a great , another great way of that . I like to think about it , how you're going to sort of , you know process the influences that you've received , you know , in a new and novel , you know what .

The last quote that I wanted to share , unless something else comes to me , which is possible , but this is from One of my favorite books catching the big fish , by David Lynch who started out as a painter , right , right artist , and then work up and then decided , whoa , I think film is where I can really tell my story and he still creates .

Yeah , his sensibilities are out .

You know really complex and sophisticated ideas , but so this is a quote from that book . This idea comes to you , you can see it , but to accomplish it you need what I call a setup . For example , you may need a working shop or a working painting studio , you may need a working music studio or a computer room where you can write something .

It's crucial to have a setup so that at any given moment when you get an idea , you have the place and the tools to make it happen . If you don't have a setup , there are many times when you get the inspiration , the idea , but you have no tools , no place to put it together , and the idea just sits there and festers over time . It will work .

You didn't fulfill it and that's just a heartache , all right . So I'm kind of dovetailing the previous quote of being on the omnivorous , of capturing different things but then doing something you know with it , and I think it's important to note that it doesn't really matter what your like . You don't need a studio space . You don't need you know like again .

There's never been a better time to capture you know ideas . We all have a freaking recording studio in our pocket that is More advanced and more powerful than what you know would take up an entire you know building from decades previous right like there's never been a better time to cap .

but capturing those things right like catching you don't need to , you don't even need to develop it right , just catch that fish , catch that idea , you know .

Put it somewhere where it's going to , you know , have some red weather again , whether that's your idea or something you know that you've copied or stolen from somebody else , but catch it , have it somewhere again . My system and I'm using your quotes here for anybody who's just listening it's it .

I don't really have one , but I know I've got all of these that you know , and even just with with modern technology , I've got , you know , I don't even know how many different folders on YouTube for example of different categories that I can listen , listen , listen back to you . I've got you know when I save things from Instagram .

You know different quote journaling , all of those different . You capture those things and then you've got this diverse collection of you know back to that food .

you're doing it , what are the things you want to do , holding on to those things and using them . They that they come back and use them later and work down the road . These ideas and things . Why did boss get mean so much to me at the time that it did ? Why , when I see his work , does my soul move in such a way ?

You know what I mean , that other work doesn't do it . But writing about it and jotting those notes down about those things and my discovery and love , after I hated impressionism for so long , writing about why certain pieces move me the way they do , why do , why does day guys , ballerina pieces move me in the way they do ? What is it about those things ?

What is it about the pastels ? What is it about you know ? So it's like it's not just the ideas to , but right out what you're thinking and why you're thinking about these things because , though man , I'm a big senses guy

. Activating all of my senses , I feel like , enhances me as a person on a regular basis . If I'm just on the computer and on my phone all the time and that's where all my senses are engaging , I feel like I'm gonna die really soon mentally .

That's why I still love to use pens and pencils and journals and paper and buy books and read books , and not that I'm not on my computer a lot or my phone . But I try to offset that with ordering magazines and reading .

You know , having my subscription to magazines and local art , newsletters and touch , feel , listen , see like I like engaging all those things , because I do think it enhances everything , that's a whole other , whole other conversation for us as well . I think that would be a fun one , enacting all five senses .

You know , and and I've heard you say before , you know , not just you know , why do I like this , but why do I not like ? You know certain things and really unpacking , like what is it about ?

You know the essence of the thing , you know , that really captures me , because when you get down to sort of the elemental nature of something , the likelihood of how you then express that Is going to be a lot more unique to your own , your own voice , and really thinking about I'm just you just triggered another thought of like I've become obsessed lately with

just trying to understand how . So I live in Minnesota . It was , you know , whatever , minus four when I , when I drove , you know , to the studio this morning . But there's something that happens in cold weather states that you salt , you know , for the ice on the roads where , as it evaporates , it just makes the most beautiful marks .

And I posted a bunch of just like accidental artwork . I'm just like Dang but just thinking about like , okay , well , I love that . It's gorgeous . Why do ? I love that . And then what could I potentially do with that ? So that let me down a whole nother out hold of like .

I got a bunch of different little science experiments laying around of you know , trying different types of table salt and course , and road salt like . What is it going to take for me to maybe capture that and recreate , not necessarily the exact look but the essence ?

She goes well coming out of work as a contractor . I love the raw , undeveloped moments when a home is being built the tar , paper , the wood , the foundation , the rebar , right all this is what moves her . It's like these things , they're just to me . There's beauty in there . I'm like then , why don't you make that ? And she's like what do you mean ?

And I said why do you need permission to make that ? If that's what you love , if that's what moves your soul , and go make art that moves your soul . And she was like , oh my gosh , so that's what she's working on . And I mean she's using those raw materials like , listen , mark Bradford gives you permission to use those materials .

The biggest artists in the world give you permission to do these things . And I'm like man , I want to see you doing massive installations that look like unfinished homes , that have your touch and your feeling . Your story is to why and I can walk in it and move around , do it .

You know , that's the whole point right of what we're doing here with this podcast is where we're finding quotes , were gathering all this information and ideas from people that we love or have influenced us , and we're like listen , all everybody's saying is just go make some damn art .

But you can also go ahead and debate with some of the most known artists , writers , filmmakers , musicians , poets in the history of Human kind , if you want as well , because they all say if it's going to be about , oh , we put some .