Embracing Your Artistic Voice: A Tribute to Authenticity and Transformation: Marilyn Minter

Fabulous , fabulous interviews from YouTube with Marilyn . One just a little trophy banner . I shared a quote of Marilyn's on Instagram this is probably a month ago and tagged her in it and she reshared it . So that's always one of those things when one of your favorite artists reshares something that you put up . Absolutely , so I had to share that .

You want to jump us into the quote , nathan ?

Explore and expand on it , rather than trying to force it into the prevailing zeitgeist . Just because something seems easy or natural to you doesn't mean it's weak . Listen to your inner voice .

She's an American visual artist and is mostly known for her central paintings and photographs that are done in photorealistic style . It really blurs the line between fine art and commercial art and she's also a fabulous educator . She teaches in the MFA department at SVA School of Visual Arts in New York .

She graduated from the University of Florida and has an MFA in painting from Syracuse , and I love that . She still develops film .

She takes digital manipulation and then she uses conventional darkroom practices to develop and she doesn't crop or digitally manipulate her photos and her paintings are made by combining the negatives in Photoshop to make a whole new image and then she uses enamel paint on aluminum through layering the photos to create her artwork .

And most people don't know this , nathan , but she is the first artist to advertise an artist exhibition on late night TV in 1990 . David Letterman right . David Letterman show pulling out ads through the gallery's advertising budget to buy 30 second slots . She is a resident badass in art history and has shown . She had the Guggenheim Fellowship for Fine Arts in 98 .

She's shown at San Francisco Museum of Modern Art , moma , contemporary Arts Museum , houston Broken Museum , and the list just goes on and on and on , and you can see her work in lots of places today . So if you want to see her work , just search what museum has pieces and go out and check her out .

I think there's a lot to really unpack and think about it .

One of the questions I wanted to kind of start with , like the first time I read this , or actually maybe the second or third time , one of the thoughts I had was just kind of wondering , like , other than forcing something into the prevailing zeitgeist , what else might cause somebody to disregard their gifts .

And here's why that's interesting to me is , it seems to me and I've just got an N equals one sample size but it seems to me that it's one of the most natural things to lean into your strengths . Either consciously or subconsciously , we're going to go to what has worked before .

But the more I thought about it , I think and again , this is maybe just true for me , but I think that if there's any resistance to leaning into what worked or really spanning on those natural gifts , it's because they come easy . We have a tendency to take them for granted .

We tend to value things in general that we have to work for , that we give up more to get , and so these natural gifts that we've been sort of blessed with from the start . I don't know if that's it .

That's the thought that I have , but I was curious if you had any theory on , just in terms of setting up , the problem that this idea or this advice is attempting to address . What else do you think might keep somebody from just leaning into their strengths ?

And there I think there is a mindset of , oh man , it should be harder than that , or that wasn't difficult enough for me . So I need to go ahead and do something totally different and force the issue because I went too fast or I didn't take enough time , because those things might have been easier or quicker to do than things you don't know .

And I think there is a trap that's easy to fall into , to go oh , I need to do so much more because that was too easy , you know , or I need to . And I've seen this over and over with artists how can it be strong if it didn't take me that long ? I'm not a fast painter , I'm not a fast creator . Is that wrong ? You know I get that question a lot .

Is that bad ? Like well , why would that be bad ? Who's going to know how long they're ?

They spent all this time on this piece . And so people , artists all over the world , ask me is it wrong that I paint so fast ? Why is it ? Should I be doing more ? I think what she's saying in this just because it's easier , natural , doesn't mean it's weak . That's part of what you're great at .

So keep doing that , listen to that inner voice and just keep channeling it .

And so I think for the occurrences where it does just sort of come together and you come back the next day , you come back the next week and you're like this actually is done , there's definitely that sense of like this is it doesn't feel as involved or that it required as much to complete as it did .

And I'm just speaking about individual pieces , but I think it applies on a more macro level as well .

Like if we have techniques that are really easy for us , that we've in a sense mastered , then we should always return to those within our work and bring them in , just because we're learning and growing over time as an artist .

There's certain techniques and things that are our strengths and we should always go to those because that is our voice , that is who we are as the artist coming out in our work . I love how she states that the art world is gonna challenge you enough , so don't make it harder on yourself . Stick with your strengths .

I mean , the art world's so hard , so difficult . It's gonna challenge every little bit of your being and your soul if you wanna play in it . So don't make it harder on yourself . Don't force things . Don't try to do things that are so difficult that you can't create strong work at it .

Stick with your strengths , continue to push and experience and do those things . But I just love , don't disregard those gifts , don't .

Like there's a natural , I think , tendency to look at what we like but then also look at what's popular , what the prevailing thing might be , and in this particular quote that's the biggest obstacle that she's identifying is to avoid that . So I don't know I mean , I don't know what your thoughts are on this , but there is certainly a middle ground .

But how do you look at a lot of art , how do you consume which you and I are both massive fans of and see the benefit of , but how do you prevent what is hot and happening from seeping into your work ?

And so it's one of those tough things . Like you wanna see what's hot , you wanna know what's going on , does that mean you're gonna fit into it ? No , because what's hot now is not gonna be hot tomorrow .

Like everything is , there are certain things that are long lasting , but most things in art quickly changing and adapting right May the art world may go really figurative , abstract figurative for a moment , which is really hot right now .

In a lot of galleries you see a lot of you know , kind of abstract figurative pieces Basquiat-ish type pieces , neo-expressionist type movements and things that are kind of reentering in ways that should they be ? I don't know , but they are , and so it's like does that mean that's tomorrow or next month or next year ? It's gonna be the same ?

No , it may go back to conceptual and really minimalistic things . Like there's an ebb and a flow and I think , cheson , if you try to force yourself into that you're gonna lose yourself and lose your voice . But also you're taking that time away from that exploring and expanding that she talks about too .

She says explore and expand on it rather than trying to force it . And I mean you look at her , somebody who she's born in 48 , so when she went to school and got her MFA in painting she was probably doing photography and this whole process of learning how to do the things she's done has taken a long time to really master this process .

And using the enamel and the aluminum and then going through with fingers and moving that enamel on the aluminum at the end to kind of create texture and things within it , they manipulate that enamel on her photographs and on her images .

So all of these things are things that she was good at , that she was gifted at , and she continued to build on them and explore and explore to get the work that she has today . It would have been easy for her to go Warhol's hot right now .

I just graduated in my MFA from Syracuse and Warhol's the hottest thing I'm gonna do prints with my photographs and you know what I mean . Then fit into what's hot in the moment pop art . She does have pop within her work .

There is a lot of pop throughout the things that she does , and it's probably because the time when she was really growing as an artist was during that time that that was hot in New York City as well , so , but she didn't disregard the gifts and she kept going with photo manipulation and these things and using the things she was great at conventional photography ,

darkroom processes , all those things and she still uses it today .

I think you know it's normal , it's natural to you know , lean on what's already worked and just in terms of natural , whether we're talking about art or just , you know , whatever has worked in life I think that it's an easy trap to fall into to just sort of stick with that at the base , sort of natural gift level .

I think it's probably less common to really take that next critical step of exploring and expanding on it , because that has and bringing it back to the artistic practice , that has , I would argue , a limitless well of ideas and inspiration and potential to continue to go wherever it might .

So I think the point that I'm trying to make is , you know , natural abilities still need to be developed , they need to be fed , they need to be , you know , nurtured right .

You know , if we don't spend time with them , if we don't , you know , find ways to continue to you know I love that word expand , you know they're going to get stagnant and it's quite possible that the work may also right If we just do . You know what comes naturally , without exploring and expanding . You know , I think that's it's something to be aware of .

I think it's a very real possibility that it could sort of just get just kind of stay pat and at that point then you're just doing the thing that came naturally in the first place , as opposed to , you know , chasing curiosity and seeing where it leads For sure .

I've been playing a lot with monotype printing using cardboard over the last two years . I've had some bodies of work that I've only done that and I have bodies of work where I've mixed the two and I've really been playing with . So I love painting with my hands . I love , you know , obviously mark making and different expressionist things with paint and texture .

So now I'm going back and I'm exploring and expanding on all those things that are my strengths and combining them together . How can they grow ? How can I ?

Can I create texture doing mono type stuff If I put a whole lot of paint on there and use the cardboard to press it down , what stays and what goes , what , what constructs , what deconstructs as I remove , and then going in with my hands and then putting the cardboard down .

So I'm doing all this exploring and things that I feel are really our strengths within my work and that also come easy to me as well , because if we're always trying to force the issue into things that are difficult .

It's going to take us a long ass time to make a whole bunch of work , and so constantly trying to explore and expand on the things I'm strong with how can I make more marks the way that I do , using different types of technique and different types of materials and tools and things , and I think that's where the expiration is . I'm good at this .

What else can I do to create this way ?

You know , I write , I do film , so I am a storyteller and I want to try to bring that into my work as well .

But I think , just really taking the ideation to the canvas and I think I paint best with my hands I think I'm able to create the strongest emotional pull in my work on canvas when I'm using my hands over using a brush or using any type of other tool .

Obviously , you know physical activity or fitness is the easiest or laziest example of that , but you know , and also , conversely , if you don't use it , you lose it , right , yeah , not that you'd forget how to tell stories , but if you just stop doing that for a period of time , you know you're not going to get better at it .

It's probably not going to forget how to do it all together , but in terms of you know , being sharp and being able to , you know , construct things and connect the way that you want to , yeah , so doing it consistently is really important . That's one thought that I had when I was , you know , thinking about this too . Is you know what ?

You know , what are my natural good at , what are my strengths ? You know ? When it comes to the creative practice specifically and I think that for me it's just insatiable curiosity I think that that's one area where just being call it ADHD , call it what you want , but just always having oh , what about this , what about that ? And there are .

I think it's important to acknowledge too that , just like every weakness has , the flip side of the coin is there's a strength attached to it . Every strength has its own weakness or potential pitfalls . You know that may or may not be , you know , useful or consistent with the ultimate goal .

And you know , one of the things that I battle with a lot is just figuring out like , all right , this came to my , all right , I got this and there's that . And there's always something , there's always a new , you know , sort of idea , and just continuing to pull that thread .

But I think that's really where that last part , listening to your inner voice , is so important . I think that it's important to at least for me anyway , I think it's really important to continue to listen to that inner voice , even when it doesn't make sense , even when it's illogical , even when it may or may not be consistent with the plan of the moment .

I don't know how many series I've got going on right now , but it's multiple , right , and you know some of them are more consistent and intentional and others are things that I'll be , you know , revisiting , certainly , you know , over time .

But I think that I depend on that , I rely on that curiosity to lead to the next strings of ideas , and so , even when they don't work out , even when they don't materialize which is of course more often than when they do I think that there's still something to be said for honoring that inner voice by listening , because to me that's how that voice gets stronger

, which becomes a skill in and of itself to be able to listen to it . You know I found there's a quote on this I wanted to share Judith Victoria Douglas . It's hard , there we go . It's hard , talking sometimes hard . It's hard to learn to listen to your instincts .

It's easier for some who have a natural ability to follow that little voice inside , but for others it takes practice , and I think that's true . I think that's , you know , learning to hear it , learning to listen and then taking action whatever that voice might be saying .

But it's like anything else , it does take practice and I wouldn't call myself an expert at anything , but I have got some experience now in listening to whatever that little voice says and saying , all right , well , why not ? You know , why not experiment , why not explore and expand on this and see where it leads .

But it does take practice to hear it , to listen and to not have that , because you know , of course , the rational mind is initially going to react and say no , no , no , no , that's not , we're doing this , or this is what we do , or this is what's on the list , this is what's on . At least mine does .

So it does take practice to not just listen but to also sort of you know , dismiss the conscious or rational or logical side of the mind and just lean into that still small voice , that little piece of inspiration .

Studio time can be just sitting and listening and talking to the work . I do this a lot . Just go into the studio and you know I may be working on stuff in the office , I may be reading or writing or talking to other artists , but I'll go out in the studio and I'll just spend 30 minutes walking around and just looking at everything that I'm working on .

I think right now I probably have 10 pieces in the works in the studio and so I'll just walk out and just look at them and let them kind of speak to me and see what I'm doing , where I'm going , knowing what I want to say with the piece and how I want to say it , what's going to work , and some days I may not even put any paint down , I may just

look . Sometimes I'll take pictures of them so that , as I'm doing other things , I can hop on my phone and look at the picture and just kind of study the piece and listen .

And sometimes I just set the chair in the middle of the studio and I just sit there , put some music on , put some Philip Glass on or some Art Blakey or Miles Davis , and just sit with music and just look at the work and listen and our voice will speak to us in those moments , especially if you're immersed in your work and your practice on a regular basis .

I know some of us don't have the opportunity to be fully immersed like we want to as a full-time job . We have other jobs and things .

But taking that time aside to just really sit with your work , talk to it , listen to it , think through what you're doing and really listen to yourself , and all the things that you're reading and all the art that you're looking at and all those things will start to help you really be informed with your own work when you're sitting and looking at it .

And that's why I'm always encouraging go look at art as much as you can , not so that that art tells you what to do , but the more you look at art and study it and have conversations with it and talk about things you like , what are they doing ?

Oh , wow , I can see the brushstrokes , I can see the fingerprints , like all of that informs you as an artist when you're sitting and thinking about your work . And now you start having those conversations with your work the same way you may have with the Marilyn Minter piece at a museum or a Lee Krasner piece or a Sam Francis piece .

I'm not talking about work I just saw last week in New Orleans , but as I sat there and looking at these pieces only the second all-Matama piece I've ever seen in a museum , which was fascinating to be able to sit in front of somebody from the Harlem Renaissance and just see their work and look at it and study it and that helps me when I'm looking at my

work and formed with depth and composition and things , and thinking through what I know about art in the outside world , I can bring into my studio on the inside and that all becomes part of my voice .

I don't know if anybody listening can relate to this , but I'm a big like , I move around a lot . I just do Like sitting still . I mean , we're sitting here talking right now like this is a purpose , but this will be the longest that I sit still , for sure all day , until I lay down at the end of the night .

So one of the things that I've had to really discipline myself to do is to sit down and do that listening and journal . There's something about that for me , who inherently has a difficult time focusing on anything in particular .

But there's a lot of power in just sitting down , like that's my studio chair , right there , oftentimes with a dog in my lap , so I can't get up always with the phone somewhere else not accessible .

You know , ringer turned off , just me , and you know whatever journal I'm working on at the time and just listening , writing , listening to myself , listening to that , listening to that little voice . But I found that to be very helpful and something that I know I'm going to fill up at least three .

That's kind of the , you know , kind of the Julia Cameron artist way , filling up three pages and it might be . Could be anything , right I ?

like to position my chair somewhere where I can look at what I might be working on , and it might be about the work , it might be about whatever else , but there's power in that and , as far as a tactical tip , that's something that works really well . You know for me not be somebody who , naturally , is not super keen on , just you know , sitting still .

a little baby . Your work has transformed massively from the start , really kind of flat images , spray paint and things like that , moving towards really full textural work with wood and all kinds of different materials .

What would you say in this last you know year , what do you think has come the easiest to you , and do you think that you're fully exploring and expanding on what has come easy to you within the work itself , with your strengths ?

Yeah , just point of shit . This is just a packing crate and it's got , you know , a bunch of layer plywood , basically just cheap plywood that's got a bunch of . So I saw this , asked if I could have .

It was going to be in the trash , you know , anyway , and now I'm playing with putting resin on it to try and get something that's naturally very , you know , delicate to be , to be durable . It may or may not work right , but just , I know that I'm honoring that , that curiosity and that and that voice , just by chasing it down .

And I think that it , you know , earlier on , I'm still so early , you know , no matter how you , how you choose to find it , but early , early , I had this idea that I was supposed to do something .

A lot , you know , or at least you know , at least at least a series to really sort of drill it down and and put a bow on it , and since then , the philosophy that I've adopted is just I can always come back to any technique , to any style , to any you know material , whatever it might be like .

I'm not going to forget that I did that because there's physical evidence of it existing and I'm not going to forget how I , how I got it .

That is , by the way , one of , I think , the advantages of whether or not you share it , filming and taking photographs and just during , whatever it is like , somehow recording how you see different things , especially when you're experimenting as much as I am with different materials . But was the original question am I answering it ?

I don't know how other people's heads or brains operate , but I think that there's , I think , for most of us right , especially if you're a creative and you're in a creative practice of some kind .

You've got a ton of ideas that come and go , and I think that if I have any natural strength that I lean into in that regard , it's , yeah , just shortening the distance between what if and let's see . And I've accepted that just fairly recently .

I've accepted that that means that it's going to take me longer to complete bodies of work or series , because I'm going to have a lot going on and I'm going to take a number of detours along the way . But I just have that belief that those little detours are going to make everything better and are going to push the work farther , faster .

To your original question , you know , as a result , as opposed to just , I'm doing this right now and I'll just kind of set that aside , you know , for later . Here's a great example . So Leo and I were on a walk at my dog . It was a springtime here and there's a lot of water moving around .

This little stream was just flowing and it pulled a lot of the trash from an industrial area nearby and there was a ton of just like really weathered , just plastic . Right , but plastic when it's , and there's , I mean I'm sure there's a way to recreate this , you know , manually .

But there's something about like plastic that's been beat down , right , that's been in the stream , right , it's just , it's beautiful . And so I was like all right , I'm going to , I'm going to at least capture this material . That's one nice thing about being a hoarder , which I think most artists are .

It's just well , if I collect this , I'm not going to , I'm going to see it again at some point yeah , somebody was did a studio visit recently and they and they saw I've got just like specific labels for all the different random things that I collect and they're like what's in the what's in the pretty rags bin ?

I'm like there's , there's pretty rags in there , pretty rags in there . Like what's in the you know awesome rust bin . I'm like some awesome , awesome rust in there .

But anyway , so just , I didn't get any work done on what I intended to right Yesterday , but I did collect some really cool material that I'm going to do something with and whether or not that works or not it's going to lead me to the next thing . So that's , I suppose , if I had a strength that I would really that I continue to go back to it's .

Just , it would be that .

And this quote is Marilyn Mentor , I don't know , probably 40 years down the road telling her her younger self this advice yeah , so what is the one thing between the younger self and the Marilyn of today ? Time , yeah , right .

And it's the practice , the evolution , the exploring , the expanding on the things she was strong at all this time to really develop who she is as an artist and who is being shown who's in the Guggenheim , who's in the MoMA , who's in MFAH , who's in San Francisco Modern , like it's the person that spent the time doing what they were good at and developing it .

Just because it comes easy and you're good at it doesn't mean the work's going to be strong .

Yeah , the way for the work to be strong is to continue to develop what you're good at and what comes easy to you over a period of time , so that the work goes from immature and weak to strong and mature , and I think this is probably the hardest thing for all of us as artists , and I know you and I talked about this a year ago , right , the one question

was like , well , is there a way to speed this up ? And you'd say , die , any way I can jump a few lighter rungs here or speed this process up , and it's like in art .

No , it takes time to develop and time to really move through the motions of expanding on what you're good at and really , really growing within it , and that , at the end of the day , is the key . Like the art , world takes time , your work takes time . You have to develop it .

So , there's a lot of unknown variables and things that I really , you know , can't control when it comes to the progression of my art career , but in terms of my practice , we've got a lot more control over that . You know , yep , and I think it's important to keep that in mind and you were just sharing that .

I thought and I wanted to ask you a follow up question Agree or disagree ? If an artist is consistently lacking inspiration and I use that word cautiously because you know you and I both adhere to the Chuck Close inspiration is for amateurs .

The rest of us go to work right , but let's just use that word just because it's it works for now If an artist is lacking inspiration consistently , they might be doing the wrong thing . Agree or disagree ?

. So I am a huge film person , I read a lot , I visit museums frequently , in galleries . I listen to music daily , across a broad spectrum of sound .

There really isn't a genre that I don't enjoy and I'm always really diving in deep and free time and moments and listening to random , obscure music all over the place , and so I'm constantly keeping myself surrounded by things that inspire and I think when inspiration comes , it's a miracle . It's insane what you can do in those moments .

I think what really helps is if we're constantly working , admits not being inspired . When the inspiration comes , you know that's when magic happens , right ? I think it's Rothko . That's when the dragons come , that fairy tale moment of you can just create . So no , I don't think you need inspiration to be doing the right thing .

I think the right thing is your work , your gifts . I mean , if you're creating and painting and creating , a moment's going to hit where you're inspired and it's just going to take all that you've been doing Up until that point and it's just going to expand on that in that moment and it's going to grow in that moment .

So I think , man , I'm sure there are plenty of great artists in history who had zero inspiration for a long time . That created some of their best work because they were constantly working .

Inspiration was not the best word , nor was doing the wrong quote unquote thing , whatever that means , but what I was , I think , attempting to get at was just the idea that it may not come easier when you're working within your easier is not the right word , but it's the first one that came to mind when you're working within your strengths , but it will flow

more naturally . I think you need to be you . Yeah , and it's a , of course , and it's way easier to be you and do what is genuine and authentic , especially long term . Right , I mean back to your previous point about this being a very long game that we're playing .

It's a hell lot easier to be that you know one of one , that we all are , you know , for better and for worse than it is to try and force something that isn't you know naturally . That's kind of what I was , I think . If you're not , being you .

You know , I look at it and I go there . That does nothing for me . Now there are plenty of artists who have Boschiat influence in their work and it does stuff for me , but they're not recreating the wheel and I think that's probably what you were saying . More than anything is you need to be you and your work .

If we're going to take influence , we're going to take all those things that we love and look at and they're going to influence our work . But if we're trying to be something else that is not ourselves and not true , it will show in the work over time .

What advice would you give somebody if they're like okay , cool , sounds great . What do I do , man ?

Am I a painter or am I a photographer ? I love to write . Am I writer ? You know , and I always say I mean you got to dabble in all of them to figure out what really feels like you , your thing . To doesn't mean you can't do all of them , but something needs to be a focus so you can get it out there .

Yeah , doesn't mean like I write , finished my first book a year ago and I've been pitching it to literary agents after it was edited and it took me a long time to do because I've been focused on painting and I still wrote . It just took me a lot longer than it would , you know , produce the film .

But wanting to do film , and I had to do that on the side of painting and things , and then there were times where the film production took away from studio time and painting as well , and it's like you can still dabble in all these things that you love to do .

But I think you have to dabble a little bit to figure out , maybe , where you're a little bit stronger and what you can use to kind of get that push out into the world for yourself . What do you really want to do ? You can do them all , it's just going to be a lot harder .

Yeah , I found it was easier to find one thing , really focus on it painting , which I love more than anything , and do the other things on the side , aside from my studio time . But I think it's just growing up . At the end of the day , the older you get , the more wisdom you have and you kind of figure out ooh , this is where I'm really strong .

I'm going to put most of my eggs in this basket and I may dabble in these other things on the side .

You know telling stories and you find a way to you know , even if the book doesn't go anywhere or you never become a bestselling author , the time that you've spent doing that makes you a better artist , right the time you spend with film makes you a better . Yeah , you know , whatever , whatever you want to call yourself right .

So I think it's important to , yeah , just continue to encourage ourselves and others to chase down those curiosities , continue to dabble and try different things . Yeah , except that it may delay , sure .

The main thing , if there even is one , if there even is a main thing , you know , yeah , but you just , we just never know , you know where those little , where those little threads may lead . And back to that faith of following that little voice inside , I think is is really important .

Yeah , and with Marilyn , her dabbling in all these different things has become her art photography , painting , film , right , the human figure , the gest , the face , facial gestures and things of feminism and the way that the world treats women in an eroticized fashion and stuff , and she's been able to bring this to short films , to movement , to all the things within

her work . It's all these little ideas and things that she probably loves and has dabbled in that have really formed a cohesive practice and so , yeah , that answers everything that you just said to .

Well , it's been a good podcast . I guess that's it . Yeah , we answered all of it .