Embracing the Intense Legacy of Clyfford Still: Authenticity in Abstract Expressionism

This is the only one of its kind , but let's let me take it over . You tied to start us off just with a little historical context of Clifford Steel .

Clifford Steel , one of yours and my favorite painters , a pioneering American abstract expressionist painter , known for the monumental canvases and his powerful brushwork and this dramatic use of color that I'm staring at behind your head right now , in the 40s and 50s still emerged as a leading figure in the abbex movement , alongside some of his buddies , jackson Pollock

and Mark Rothko and some of the Arrasable 18 that we talked about in the head of Stern episode last week Clifford Steel's in that photograph .

His works are characterized by their vast expanses of color , jagged , organic forms that just crawl and float through space in these pieces , and they're very personal and intensely evocative for him , reflecting his own struggles and emotions .

And one of Steel's most significant contributions in the art world was his uncompromising commitment to integrating independence as an artist , which is unlike a lot of artists of his time , because they wanted to be in the galleries and the museums and on billboards and things , and he really rejected commercialism and the idea of artist commodity , and so there were

plenty of arguments in those friendships between he and some of those guys . He often rejected gallery representation and art dealers , even though he did work with them Peggy Guggenheim and others . He really chose to maintain his own control over his work , which is a great conversation in today's art world . A lot of artists asking us about what do we do ?

How do we do these things ? Do we want galleries ? Do we want to control it ourselves ?

And so he was really set apart because of that , because most of his contemporaries wanted to be in the galleries , they wanted to be in museums , they wanted the commercial aspect of that , and he really solidified his reputation as a maverick in the art world because of that mindset .

Despite his relatively small body of work from his life , he was really selective about which works could be displayed publicly , and so his impact on the art world was just profound . Because of these things . He destroyed more than 1000 of his own artworks , only leaving behind about 800 paintings and 2300 works of paper .

Think about , I mean he destroyed countless amounts of work because he didn't like it or somebody hung it wrong in a house .

There's a great story about that and it really contributed to this mystery that surrounds Clifford Still and his process and decision making behind his work , and even though he had all these relationships with people and kind of was a loner in the art world , he did maintain some really strong relationships with Mark Rothko , who he really deemed as an intellectual

kinship and mutual respect to each other's work , and their friendships was really really tight and there's a great story about that if you ever watched the Lifeline documentary about Clifford Still .

But some of his other contemporaries , like Jackson Pollock and Barrett Newman , had quite a bit more contentious attitude and they often clash between principles and the differences of their work and the commercial aspect of work .

So , anyways , his legacy as an artist is 100% linked to this uncompromising vision and pioneering development of abstract expressionism , and his canvases , as I see behind you , continue to captivate viewers all over the world with raw motion untamed to energy and just this influence of the trajectory of modern art as we see it today .

And so upon his death and I know you're going to talk about this in a second Nathan he left very strict instructions that his work should never be divided , sold or loaned to other museums .

He wanted one sole place for his work because he thought his work needed to speak on its own with each other , and that led to the establishment of where you are today , and I know you'll share about that in a little bit .

Today we're going to stick with Clifford Stilkos , but it was difficult to decide which one we should start with and we got a lot to choose from . So I suspect this will be one of probably multiple episodes on Clifford Stilkos . But I wanted to start with this quote Art is a bridge between the conscious and the subconscious , between the known and the unknown .

I'll read that one more time Art is a bridge between the conscious and the subconscious , between the known and the unknown . Do you think Rick Rubin would love that quote ? That would fall right into fall right into the creative act . I can hear him talking about that at length . Yeah , I love this quote for a lot of reasons .

I think one of the reasons why I wanted to start with this specifically is just the experience of taking in his work in person and seeing it . You know the scale , the intensity . It's an experience , and I really wanted to kind of share a couple stories .

This is my fourth time here , once I've been here by myself , which has its advantages to those of you that work through museum at a slower pace . I suspect you and I would probably be fairly good .

You know museum partners but you know when you go with folks that maybe aren't quite as big a nerd as you are , they tend to like where are there like three rooms ahead , what's going on ?

You know , like like you or I might be , and it's really fun and interesting to sort of share you know , steele's work , you know with somebody who wasn't familiar with it before . It's just a really cool experience , like it doesn't matter . And getting to the quote right , conscious , subconscious , known and unknown .

And there's another quote of his that maybe we'll circle back to as well . But appreciating art does not need to be an intellectual experience . You know , I remember my buddy said something to me that I'm sure you've heard a bunch of times as well . That people will say often is oh , I don't . I like art but I don't understand it .

And at the end of the day , the question is do you enjoy looking at it ?

Do you enjoy the experience , you know , of being with it and of course there's plenty of , you know academic , you know reasons and other aspects and elements to appreciate as well , but just the fact that his work connects at such a deep , you know , soul level with everybody that have a chance to bring through here is tremendous .

I mean , one of my favorite photos that I have of myself and our youngest daughter is one that that my wife snapped of the two of us just , you know , looking side by side at at one of one of his large scale works , which most of most of them are , but it's one of my most cherished photos .

In fact she , our youngest daughter , ella's got a print of his hanging over her bed . As a matter of fact , she got it at the gift shop here . So I want to kick back to you . What are ? How does that quote resonate with you and how do you ? There's a lot of ways to interpret and discuss that particular quote .

Fall into the strokes , the lines , the jaggedness , the texture , these moments of tearing , ripping , pushing , pulling all those things right . He was inviting you and your entire being some solace , maybe a chance to find some purpose , maybe a chance to really search your self-identity in the spiritual space that exists between the viewer and his work .

You know , and I feel like when he was working he was trying to enter into those moments and he talks about it when he says I left the image , I left the figure , I left these things to find the spiritual right , to find the unconscious moments .

Talking about Rick Rubin we've both read his book and those things that really falls into that conscious and subconscious bridge between the creator and the creation , you know .

I mean , there's see , now it's actually I try to spend some time in here so I wouldn't be distracted and just , you know , trail off and get lost . But most of these pieces have elements of both and I think it depends largely on the viewer and largely on the state that one might be in , you know , when they're taken in the work .

That's why this is such a special place to be able to . I might tell some other friends of mine that I saw over the weekend here . I was like , have you been to the Stem Museum ? Oh , no , no , no , I said you have to , don't just come once . But like , plan it out , is it three shows per year ?

Three , but three shows per year because I've got such a deep archive . I should mention I've got Sanya Anderson Vai , who's the director of marketing here at the Stem Museum , who's spotting me and going to be my fact checker and making sure that I don't , you know , throw any soup on any of the pieces . But yeah , I mean this really is a special place .

I think I mean you talked about the conviction that still had around his work and I'd like to read an excerpt from his will which led to this place being created . So , and we'll put the graphic up for people who are watching this on on YouTube as well .

But yeah , I give , and the queeth , all the remaining works of art executed by me in my collection to an American city that will agree to build or assign and maintain permanent quarters exclusively for these works of art and assure their physical survival , with the explicit requirement that none of these works of art be sold , given or exchanged , but are to be

retained in the place described above , exclusively assigned to them in perpetuity for exhibition and study . And I believe his , his widow , patricia , later added that it'd be a freestanding building . You know as well .

So so after his death in 1980 , those works stayed hidden , stayed with Patricia and the home that they had lived in , and 25 different cities or 25 attempts to get the Clifford still collection to come to their city before Denver was finally awarded that privilege .

And so the museum here has 3125 works which get this is still blind , mind blowing , even though I've known this for a while makes up 93% of the work that he made over the course of his lifetime . Yeah , I mean , I think it's pretty safe to say that there is not another place like this on earth and probably never will be .

I mean , what are the chances of an artist being so specific about where the work went ? Who got to receive pieces that they would still be in sole ownership of the overwhelming majority of the work that they made over the course of their lifetime , and so this really is , you know , a special space .

I mean a chance to get to see the progression , you know , of such an impactful artist over the course of their career , from the beginning , you know , to the very end , you know .

One of the things that I was really excited to see today were some of the works on paper that he made , you know , with pastel , that are dated 1979 , 1980 , you know , some of the last things you know , that he made , and after he wasn't able to paint anymore , it's pretty tremendous , and so so , yes , so , when Denver was awarded the privilege of being the

sole host of all these works , I believe they broke ground in 2009 , and the museum opened in , I think , november of 2011 . So couldn't recommend more . If you , if you have a reason to be in Denver or just looking for a little art , art , travel , please , please , please , come here . It's , it's unlike anything else that I've seen before .

. So Mandy and I , my wife Mandy , we were there a few years back at the museum , at the still , and it was her first time seeing Clifford stills work . I've seen two pieces , I think , in my lifetime . I think one was at Fort Worth Modern , I believe so . No , I think it was actually .

Museum of Fine Art Houston has a Clifford still piece and I don't know if it's on loan or if it's part of their permanent collection . There are a few pieces out there in the world in museums . I know Albright Knox Museum in Buffalo has a few works . He was Dear Friends with the Albright Knox family .

So anyways , Mandy and I , Mandy has gone to a lot of museums with me . She's seen a lot of great work . And when we walked into the still she hit this moment right , that conscious , subconscious moment , and she just stopped and went wow , and she's around art .

She , I mean she's an artist's wife , so she's around a lot of art and a lot of art conversations , and so she just went . She just stood there staring and walking and looking and there was that . It's almost that moment where the subconscious and the conscious meet right .

So it's kind of like those moments of divine , what you would call it a thin place in the old Celtic religions in Ireland , that thin place where the places of heaven and earth meet , where the subconscious and the conscious meet .

And there's this moment of we've all had it when we've seen specific artwork , where we stop and some moment happens to hit us and we just go . What is happening to me right now ? You know , a lot of people experience this with Rothkos . A lot of people have that deep spiritual moment with Rothkos where they those two things meet .

And I think what a win , what an incredible legacy for an artist who's left his work behind . And people continue to find that bridge when they experience the work in person 100% .

pretty extraordinary . I want to jump off to another quote that I think relates well to the first one as well . He said I am not interested in creating a painting that is an illustration . I want to create something that has its own life and power .

And again , you don't need to see these in person to see how true that is , but when you do , it's just something else . I mean , this work has a vibrancy , a life , a power to it that .

I watched the documentary yesterday and I forget who had said this , but somebody made reference to the fact that his work would be just as relevant if somebody was making it today . I think about that .

That's where decades removed from that period of time 70 plus years and so to be in a place where to have made work that had life and power then and still has it now and then some is absolutely tremendous . I think you'd be hard pressed to .

I'm sure we could come up with a list of other artists who have a signature style that is that distinctive or as distinctive , but I think you'd have a hard time finding somebody whose style was more so than Stills . And so I'm curious how do you think about that quote ? Because there's kind of two very distinct elements to it .

So we have to look at the example of how they dealt with their paint so we receive their images of their paintings by how we look at the paint . So they were all different in their process , right from Pollock to Rothko to Joan Mitchell to Helen Frankenthaler , but still right , he used palette knives and trowels and he made , made his paints from pigments .

All of his paints were homemade , right , and he created those things . And so we have to look at how he painted and the way he used paint . And to piggyback a quote , he said I want to be in total command of the colors , as in an orchestra , they are the voices . So that taps right into what you said , as he's leaving one and moving to the other .

So I think too , when we talk about that spiritual juxtaposition of conscious , subconscious , exploring mystery in his work , in these things you can get a soulful , mellow , beautiful feeling , but you can also get a very violent , fighting feeling , as if he's fighting with his soul to discover who he is , what he's about .

Because you think about the act of thick , thick , handmade paint on a trowel . You can see it in his work .

There are moments of violent aggression , like moving that paint and slapping it around and so just thinking about his paint being the orchestra and picturing the orchestra right , and you have the tubas and you have the violas and you have the brass section and the woodwinds and you have the drum .

You know all these different things are playing different parts within the sound of the music . You may have a violent tone coming across from a certain instrument you have made beautiful floating sound , like a flute playing in the background , and they all work in harmony together . That's how I feel when I see his work .

So he was on a ladder , you know , in his space , and really working with the paint , really working with the material . It's funny to bring it up .

The current exhibition is all about conserving the work , you know , and all the steps that go towards , you know , conserving pieces that have , in many cases , a number of layers , you know , really , really built up . I mean , that's part of what gives them such vibrancy and such life .

But to be up close and personal and to see those marks , to see exactly how , you know , those marks were made , with the brush , with the palette knife , with the trowel , it's quite something .

And the depth , the way that those colors are in harmony with one another and the way that they just to the you know , musical , you know analogy or metaphor , the way that they just sing is yeah , yeah , it's quite something . I'm probably not doing too well today , I'm probably not contributing a whole lot , just because I yeah synth Asia overload .

That's exactly .

Here you are in the Still Museum , one of your influences , your heroes , somebody that you really look up to as an artist , just following your opening of your solo exhibition on Friday , so just a few days ago from when we're recording today and just thinking of the quote in the act of creation I find soulless , purpose and a sense of being .

That quote fits in right With all the things that we've read about him already , these quotes that we've read his act of creation he finds soulless , he finds purpose and a sense of belonging . Do you feel that way when you're working on your work ?

But , yeah , that's where I want to be and I think , as artists , like , if that's not where you find soulless , if that's not where you're setting out to discover and really mine the depths of your soul .

And you and I talked about this , but you know , I think that it wasn't until I was in the regular practice , you know , of art making that I really got to know aspects of myself that I wasn't either familiar with at all or certainly didn't have the space to explore or understand . Yeah , that's the power of art . It's funny . So , Asher , that's who .

It was Sonia Ash . So there was an employee who works here who was at the opening on Friday and , yeah , and he without even we hadn't even made the connection about the , about the museum , but but he had been following me for all Instagram and was was talking about the work and he pointed at one piece . He goes this reminds me of a Clifford still lifeline .

And I was like oh my gosh , I don't care what anybody else says , I don't care about these pieces . So you just made my night . Yeah , that was . It was super cool to to hear that , that , that comparison , but but yeah , I mean , I think that that's really .

I mean , actually that's probably a good , a good transition to our next quote and I'll toss it back to you . But a work of art should be so powerful that it bypasses the intellect and speaks directly to the emotions . Yeah , and we've talked about this a lot .

Right , I'll throw my two cents and kick it over to you , but we've talked about this a lot , how you know the , the intent of the artist is relevant .

You know , there's certainly any number of intellectual conversations that can and should , you know , be had around the work , but if it's not speaking directly through the emotions , if it's not connecting on an emotional level , is it really a successful piece of art ?

You may stop a different painting you didn't stop that before . You may skip the ones that have moved you before . So a lot of it too . Just our personal attitudes or character , what we're dealing with or how we're seeing the world , even you know today , Could completely impact how that work speaks or how that work moves to you as the viewer .

Now talking about Clifford , still , I think he put an enormous amount of time trying to bring those emotions and those connections out in his work , to move the viewer to a raw , instinctive level of viewing the work .

So he's putting effort and time into how the viewer's going to see it , by exploring himself and his own personal depths of his soul while he's creating . I mean , listen , if you're an artist in the studio , you know the truths your work brings out about you .

When you're working on it you are at your and we've talked about this before you're at your purest form of true self . When you're making art in the studio , you are exactly who you're supposed to be . It should be where you feel most alive and it should also be , like Clifford still , the place where you're working out who you are in your work .

So there are artists that don't do that . There absolutely are . There are artists that go on to create . They're just going to make stuff , going to make pretty work , going to make decorations . I'm not opening up an argument or a conversation about some , just saying there are differences in artists . There are artists who are completely .

They want the commercial level . They want to create commercial art and get in these things and be on billboards and do all this stuff . And that's one thing that Clifford still gotten big fights with some of these guys about way back in the day was no , you're selling out to the commercialism just to sell work and be famous .

You know , I think every artist wants that . They want the fame , they want the recognition for your work . But there is a separation before . I'm not willing to give in to the machine and just make what just makes something to be a commercial success .

I want to work hard and create my work and make the best work I make until the day I die and if things happen they happen . So you know , there are those two things , but it really is . It depends on the audience at the end of the day . But I would say I take from Clifford Still the way I work .

I make the work for myself , with the audience in mind . I want them to view something , I want them to be impacted spiritually and emotionally with true depths of the human core . But that's not my focus for making the work . The work is making it and finding myself within it and bringing that out while I'm working .

After a certain period what year , do you know ? In the forties Okay , I'm just , I'm really putting you on the spot today . I'm glad you're here . So at some point in the forties you switched from titling work to you know pH dash , you know the number because he didn't want to give the viewer any , any indication of you know what it was about .

He didn't want to taint their perception or their experience , you know , with the work . So taking intentional steps to bypass the intellect and just give the viewer the most open , yeah , free experience to , to experience it on an emotional level , or how are they , you know , having to on that particular day ? That's , that's , that's possible .

Let me ask you , how is , how is stills work impacted ? Your , your work specifically , or your practice specifically ?

Right when we love an artist and we're young and we're making art , we're doing everything we can to replicate who we love in our work . We've talked about that in the site Twombly episode a few episodes back .

Sean's work had Clifford still moments in it and I didn't know who that was and so we would talk about it and I'd start to learn about Clifford still and Sean used tape to create those tears and those little things and layer up and rip tape and create those shapes and I was fascinated by just the juxtaposition of small rips and then big spaces , of negative

space and color and I think that is what impacted me the most , the use of negative space . And if you look at my work , I have lots of negative space in my work , lots . I leave a lot of breathing room .

I want the cosmos interacting with the chaos on a grand level and so that's always my key with my work and there are a few people that impacted that , and Clifford still is 100% one of them .

It's hard to just list one thing , but if I had to come up with just one thing when I'm viewing pieces and again fourth time here , seeing most of these , I think , with maybe just one exception for the very first time is how many of his pieces have , given their grand scale , have just a little dash , just a little something that's a different color or just

completely out of . And this is one I chose a spot specifically because that's one of my favorite little moments is just of the entire piece , which is mostly that beautiful , you know , golden , red , yellow , some blue , there's just this little dash of seafoam green .

Yep , yeah , I mean less than 1% of the canvas , but I love the way that that brings me as a viewer in and just causes me , as an artist as well , to be like I wonder why there , why that color ? And then just to consider , like how that ?

Really , even though it's just such a small little something , the way that that impacts how you take in the rest of the piece is just fascinating . So those little peekaboos , those little clues , I think are what really brings me as a viewer , you know , into his work and something that's definitely impacted me personally as well .

And I think you know , you know you saying that I leave little moments like that in almost all of my pieces , little edge moments or little , and maybe that's because I saw it in a Clifford still piece at one time and it stuck in my head as something that was so important and what .

I do things because I want to do things that aren't supposed to work or fit and make them fit . And I feel like he had a mindset of that . I want to do things that I'm not supposed to do or people are telling me not to do . I'm going to make them work and I'm going to make them successful . I mean that really that's part of his nature .

I feel like was I'm not going to live in New York at the height of my career , just like everybody else ? I don't need to , I'm going to live somewhere else . I don't , you know , I don't need the commercial success of every big gallery out there in New York and LA , I'm going to do it on my own .

He really fought those things and wanted to make him fit because he was great at what he did , and not leaning on everybody else to make that happen .

You and I might have a difficult time in John Malkovich's mind with those four foot ceilings being of above average .

there . So the only person in my head that comes to mind is Larry Poonz , that after his success as a young artist he said I don't want to make my dot paintings anymore , those paintings anymore , but everybody wanted them . So he left the art world right completely and then made his own work that he wanted to make for so long .

And then I think it was 30 years later , the art world came back and said oh , actually , we want all this new work .

He did have shows , he did have things , so he wasn't completely removed . So there's some interesting contrast within all of this as well .

Let's tell that story , because it is such a perfect story , to really you know I love it . Yeah , so Alfonso Osorio had purchased a piece and owned it and was planning to loan it overseas , which was expressly forbidden . A no-no . Big no-no , yeah , clifford got wind of this . Drove to his mansion .

There's a couple of versions of this story and they do a great job telling it in the document .

Clifford finds a knife in the house , cuts out the center of this piece , cuts just , destroys his own work , leaves a couple feet , you know , around the perimeter , which I learned recently . The center of that is here somewhere . I'm still trying to see if I can sneak into the archive today , but I don't know if that's going to happen .

But that's to be fascinating to see . But cut out the center and told him this is where the story is not completely clear , whether or not Osorio then found him there or not . But as one version of the story goes still . Said to Osorio when I give you an order about my work , you obey me .

So then the you know the person cuts it to fit the space or reframes it , or somebody takes it to a framer and the framer didn't follow instructions and cut the piece wrong and things . So I know that feeling inside of the work not being represented the way it was truly supposed to be represented .

And I think even for him he's so strict on how his work is represented . If I sell it to you , it is for you . It's to go on the wall that I created it for how I created it to be . With these other paintings , those things , I don't want to be in the room with Rothko and Pollock .

I get my own room of my work because my work isn't to be seen with those other works . It won't reflect the work as well . So you have these things . I know that feeling of Did they use me ? Did they not truly care about the piece ? And I think for him too , my piece isn't a poster and a frame to be shipped around the world and shown by other people .

It was for a purpose . This is the purpose here . So I know that feeling . Now I don't think I'll go to the lengths of still and the family and the crime family going after the piece , but I love that story . I mean , those are the stories that make the art world just so alive and beautiful in the history books .

. But this quote I do not seek perfection , I seek truth , authenticity and raw expression . I do not seek perfection , I seek truth , authenticity and raw expression . And I'll take first crack at this one time before I ask your thoughts on it .

But I think that one of the things that is so striking about again viewing the work you know in person is , like I mentioned before , seeing all those , all the marks , all the brush strokes , all of the imperfections . That's what makes his hand obvious . Perfection isn't interesting , yeah , it's .

The imperfections is really where the interest and that authenticity , really where that expression lies . And I think that when we're thinking about , you know , as artists , how am I seeking my truth , how am I trying to express myself , you know , authentically ?

I think that that's a really important thing for all of us to keep in mind is just the value of setting aside unless you're into hyper realism and perfection is part of the objective .

But apart from that , to really , you know , not just try and hide the imperfections but to really lean into them , you know , to really embrace some of those authentic , you know , raw moments , you know , in a piece and even if , even when , it may not look like your style or what you think you were intending to make in the first place , at least consider

keeping it , at least consider , you know , leaning into that as opposed to shine away from that . And I'll just share my personal experience and this is something that you really helped me with personally was I remember all the time that I would spend resolving a piece and I'd get to a certain portion that I wanted to .

It just wasn't quite right and I wanted it to look like a step that I had done , you know , whatever three or four moves previous and the lengths that I would have to go to to try and sort of , you know , recreate and almost manufacture sections of a piece to get it to look a certain way .

That was , I guess , and it's been a while since I've created that way , but , I guess , consistent with you know , whatever my vision , you know , was when I started and it really wasn't until I was able to , and I still fall in that trap , you know , from time to time , but until I much more consistently set that perfectionism aside and realized what am I making

this for ? Right Back to what we were talking about before . As far as that act of creation finding solace , purpose , sensible , I'll tell you what . Never once when I'm caught up in my perfectionist self , when I'm stuck in that mode , never once do I feel solace , purpose or something , or a sense of belonging .

I feel a sense of duty , responsibility and just flat out drudgery . It's task oriented , not how I , you know , choose to choose to make art . So what are your thoughts on that ?

Even in just abstract art there are a lot of straight lines . You have Cubism that moved into abstract . You have these movements that still had straight lines , still had things . All of these men and women not all of them , but most of them were classically trained painters . They could paint landscapes , they could paint the figure .

They'd gone through figure classes , they could all paint perfection , so to speak . And so now they're all leaving this for the raw expression , for the emotion , for the authenticity . And I think for him he's such an important part of this and him saying this is really his philosophy not seeking perfection , seeking the truth , authenticity and expression in his work .

And so he's really pushing artistic boundaries and challenging these preconceived notions that existed before they came along the abstract expressionists and trying to leave an impact on the world , taking that to the expression , to the furthest ends of expression , and I love this .

There's something that Pollock said years ago when he was interviewed about abstract expressionism in the beginning , and he says the important thing is that , cliff , still you know his work . He asked the author , and Rothko and I , we've changed the nature of painting . We've changed the nature of painting . And those three guys .

And when you think of Pollock , he was maybe the most freest form of expression flat on the ground , moving around , dancing , spiritual whether he was , and a lot of the time he wasn't even drunk in these moments because he was sober .

A lot of people don't know that when some of these paintings were created , but really finding that just motion and emotion in the work . So here you have these three guys who together are discussing these things and leaving what was learned before . And then I love that he makes a crack in the same quote , pollock .

I don't mean there aren't any other good painters . Bill Willem de Kooning is a good painter , but he's a French painter . I told him that the last time I saw him at his last show . I mean , look at all those pictures , they start with an image .

So he's even saying about D'Cunin and other people they're still seeking perfection Because they're starting with an image when they're making .

And I just that quote by Clifford is amazing , because I want mistakes , I want accidents in my work , I want those little moments of chaos and then leaving them in and see if I can work around them rather than erasing , rather than painting over . Can I work through those ?

Because there's authenticity even in the mistakes , even in the oops drip or the market didn't mean to make .

I mean , I think we could all use a little bit more of that . I mean , you know , level of yeah , I just keep keep coming back to that word conviction . It's also important to realize that you know , even still had had moments .

There's a great story that they talk about in the doc where he just broke down at the kitchen table and one of his daughters happened to . You know , hear him questioning like is this what , what's this for ? Is this even , is anyone even going to care ? Yeah , about , about , about my work , and so I think it's really important .

You know , if you're listening to us talk right now and you're thinking , you know I can't imagine having anything close to that level of just steadfast , steadfast conviction that just doesn't waver over time , well , that's not the case for for anybody . I mean , yeah , absolutely .

If somebody like , like still had had those low moments , then you better believe that , that we're all going to have them . So it's important to , I think , just not make things , not make those low moments mean more than they do those low moments and I've had some , you know recently , where I've said a version of that question , right , we ?

Yeah , that's the other side of the coin and that's something that we just need to be aware of and not not give too much of a voice .

repeated , and looking in the mirror and saying the same things you're saying in the mirror in the mornings .

So that's why it is important to study and go to museums and go see the work and learn the history about your heroes and your influence , because there was a point in their life because we're all human where you err on the other side of doubt and failure and it creeps in and becomes resistant . So study those things and it gives you confidence .

And Clifford still was saying the same things I was saying last week at the height of his career Right , and I'm not even close to that and on any level close to that . So absolutely One quick story before we shut off .

When I was at the Still Museum like you and I do when we go to things , we make little reels on Instagram and share our stories of what we're doing I put up a reel from the Still Museum and I put Beethoven to it as I was thinking of music . That would really fit Clifford's work in my head .

And that day I got a direct message from one of Clifford Still's granddaughters , who sent me a message and said Thank you so much for sharing this and putting Beethoven to my grandfather's paintings . He was a huge fan of Beethoven and he would have loved seeing this .

So I just have to say to me as the artist , when we talk about wins and losses and those things , that was such a win for me that what in the world ? How random and crazy , but also how cool that she's still today . What are people saying about my grandpa ? You know , are people sharing things about him ? So fun story . Those things happen .

If you go to a museum that allows you to do video and photos , share the heck out of it . Send more people to that museum to see it that . You know I'm a supporter of museums . I'm a patron level member at Museum of Fine Arts in Houston , which means I have reciprocal privileges to go to museums all over the US that have those privileges with that museum .

So that means my membership works at the Still Museum in Denver . My membership works at Museum of Fine Arts Fort Worth . It works at LACMA and the Broad . So get a museum membership for that . Just think anywhere you travel , where you go in your city , you can get into other museums with that .

So become a member of a museum , help support museums I'm a big fan and go look at art . Go look at some art this week Gallery , museum , friends , house , whatever . Go look at art 100% .