Keyana Corliss: [00:00:04] Welcome to Just Checking In.
Rebecca Buckman: [00:00:06] I'm Becky Buckman.
Keyana Corliss: [00:00:07] And I'm Keyana Corliss. Each week we'll use humor, a little irony, and definitely some self-deprecation to dive into the world of high-tech corporate comms.
Rebecca Buckman: [00:00:16] We'll use our expertise and less-than-serious take on the tech news cycle to bring you the best in the business, across comms and media, for one-of-a-kind insights and perspectives you won't hear anywhere else.
Keyana Corliss: [00:00:27] Get ready to laugh.
Rebecca Buckman: [00:00:30] This is...
Keyana Corliss: [00:00:31] ... Just Checking In.
Rebecca Buckman: [00:00:35] All right. We're so excited to speak today with Matt Abrahams, a communications and speaking expert who is a lecturer at the Stanford University School of Business, as well as an author and a noted podcaster. So maybe he'll give us some tips. Matt hosts the long-running Think Fast Talk Smart podcast, and he's also the author of two books. The most recent is 'Think Faster, Talk Smarter: How to Speak Successfully When You're Put on the Spot', and his previous book is called 'Speaking Up Without Freaking Out: 50 Techniques for Confident and Compelling Presenting'. So, Matt, since our audience is comprised mainly of technology communications professionals, I think we're going to have a ton to talk about. So welcome.
Matt Abrahams: [00:01:15] Thank you. I'm really excited to be on the show with you all and have a good discussion.
Keyana Corliss: [00:01:18] My first question is what if you think fast and talk fast. Is that bad?
Matt Abrahams: [00:01:25] Talking fast in general is probably a bad thing. The whole think fast part is really about pattern recognition. It's not actually about thinking faster, because thinking faster can actually get you a little distracted, but it's recognizing what's needed in the moment and making those adjustments.
Keyana Corliss: [00:01:40] Well, that sounds way faster than my, you know, teenage tendency to speak fast.
Rebecca Buckman: [00:01:45] Exactly, exactly.
Matt Abrahams: [00:01:46] A lot of us think the faster I speak, the sooner I'm done, and then I'm out.
Rebecca Buckman: [00:01:56] But just to kick it off, Matt, I think one of the biggest themes in your most recent book, or really the underlying premise, I think, is this idea that professionals of the type that we in our audience deal with and work with all the time, spend a lot of time preparing for, I would say, structured communications experiences, you know, presenting a slide deck or giving a formal speech or presentation, but that in reality, most or a lot of our professional and personal communication occurs in more spontaneous situations that are really just as or more important. So maybe we could start there, help us understand this idea, and why focusing on this kind of spontaneous communication is so important.
Matt Abrahams: [00:02:37] Yeah, well, first and foremost, it's much more frequent than the planned presenting or the big pitch or the panel that you're on or the person you're prepping is on. So we just do a lot more of it. And the reality is we don't get a lot of preparation on it. You might get some media training which might touch on Q&A, but if you think about it, we're asked to give feedback all the time. We have to make small talk. We have to apologize when we have technology issues. There are so many things where we are speaking in the moment, yet we never get training on it and often we feel like, well, I'm either good at it or I'm not. And the reality is we can all get better by simply focusing on it and working on it.
Keyana Corliss: [00:03:15] It's interesting, especially as comms professionals, our whole lives sort of revolve around preparing people for spontaneous moments almost, or what feels like, you know, things that you can't prepare for. You know, we plan for things that we almost can't control. So can you talk about some of the things that you speak about in your book, about how people can get better, and sort of the tools and tricks and tips that you recommend?
Matt Abrahams: [00:03:41] Absolutely. Yeah. And it seems counterintuitive, but you can actually prepare to be spontaneous. And I always ask people to think about athletes. Athletes do a lot of drills and preparation so they can be spontaneous in the moments that they're playing their sport. So there are a lot of things we can do. So in the many years of doing this work, both teaching it and then writing about it, it boils down to me to two major areas of work. One is mindset and approach, and then the other is the actual messaging itself. So we just have to get our head right when it comes to this. Anxiety is the first step. We have to manage our anxiety. Most people get nervous around communication, period, but especially when it's spontaneous. So when somebody says, hey, I'd love for you to take some questions after that talk, or we're going to be sure to solicit your feedback when we're done with the pitch, many people get very concerned about it and very nervous. So we can tackle that. And there are some things we can do to manage our anxiety. And then we have to think about just our mindset in general. Many of us, when we go into these situations, we want to be perfect. We want to answer the question the right way. We want to give the best feedback. We want to be the most interesting in small talk. And all of that can get in the way of us actually just doing it well. Everybody listening, all communication professionals understand that the goal is to really connect with the audience. And if I am judging and evaluating everything I'm saying to see if it's right, it gets in the way of me actually doing that connection.
Matt Abrahams: [00:05:08] So I like to say connection over perfection. When we get out of our own way, we actually do much better. And by the way, and I think all of us know this, there is no right way to communicate. There are better ways and worse ways, but no right way. And then the last step really, is that we need to see these situations as opportunities, not threats. Many of us feel threatened when we're put on the spot and that makes us defensive. We get tighter, our answers are shorter, our tone is more curt. Yet if we see them as opportunities, it fundamentally changes the way we interact. It actually brings us forward. We're more big in our body posture and our gestures. Our answers are more in-depth and our tone is more collaborative. So that's the mindset approach piece. But then we also have to work on the messaging piece. And I'm a huge fan of structure. Structure gives us a roadmap. So I'm not just listing and itemizing information, rather I have a structure. And not only does that structure help me prioritize what to say, it packages it up so the audience can hear it and it keeps it focused. Many of us in the moment when we speak, we just ramble on and on and on, and we take the audience on a journey of our discovery of what it is we want to say. And we all know that's not effective. So it's about first mindset and then messaging.
Rebecca Buckman: [00:06:20] All right. This sounds almost as complicated as prepping to give, you know what I mean, like an IPO presentation or a pitch to investors. I want to go back to one of the pieces, and maybe we can go through these one by one, but what about managing anxiety? Are there concrete tips for that that are different than managing anxiety in different kinds?
Matt Abrahams: [00:06:37] So I would counter one of the things you mentioned about this is so hard. It's actually not. These are little steps that you can take. And you don't have to do all of these. Doing any of these steps actually helps you feel more comfortable and confident in the moment. When it comes to anxiety, and anxiety looms large, you know, 85% of people report feeling nervous in high-stakes situations, especially when they're spontaneous. And I think the other 15% are lying. I think we could easily make them nervous, too. You really have to take a two-pronged approach. You have to manage both symptoms and sources. So what happens for both of you physically when you get nervous? For me, I blush and I sweat. What happens for you all?
Keyana Corliss: [00:07:14] I go really inward. If you ever see me really calm and really quiet, something's going down.
Matt Abrahams: [00:07:22] That's a sign that you're nervous, huh?
Rebecca Buckman: [00:07:24] Yes. I have been known to turn beet red. I think that happens less the older I get. But yes, that has happened too.
Matt Abrahams: [00:07:30] Yes, exactly. And those are normal and natural. Our bodies experience speaking in front of others, planned or spontaneous, as a threat, and we respond with the fight or flight response, and that causes us to go inward, it causes us to blush and perspire, to shake, to feel our hearts beating. So there are things we can do to manage those symptoms. Simple and the most effective for the most people is deep belly breathing. Slow, long breaths can actually help. And what's key is the exhalation. All of the magic happens on the exhale. I like to joke the rule of lung, not the rule of thumb, is you want your exhale to be twice as long as your inhale, and you only have to do that a few times. For those of us that blush and perspire, that's because our core body temperature is going up. When you are anxious around speaking, your heart beats faster, your body tenses up, so you're pushing more blood through tighter tubes. It's like you're exercising. Our body temperature goes up, so we have to cool ourselves down. The single best thing you can do to reduce blushing and sweating is hold something cold in the palms of your hand. The palms of your hand are thermoregulators for your body, just like your forehead or the back of your neck. So by holding something cold, it actually cools you down. On a cold morning if you've ever had warm tea or coffee in a mug and held it and felt warmed up, just do it in reverse.
Matt Abrahams: [00:08:45] So those are things we can do to manage some of the symptoms. Now the sources are the things that initiate it. And we've talked a little bit about that striving for perfection. Let me give you another example. Many of us, when we speak, we have a goal and we want to achieve that goal. Entrepreneurs want to get the funding. My students want to get a good grade. The people who are listening in, their speakers might want to really do well to position their companies well. All of those are future outcomes. The goals are, by definition, about the future, and what's making us nervous is a potential negative future outcome. So if we can become more present-oriented, we can all of a sudden feel less nervous. And you can do that by doing something physical, going for a run before you start, or some light activity. You can listen to a song or a playlist like athletes do. My favorite way to get present-oriented is to say tongue twisters before I speak. Before I got on today, I said a tongue-twister three times. It warms up my voice and it gets me present-oriented.
Keyana Corliss: [00:09:43] What did you say?
Matt Abrahams: [00:09:44] I will share my tongue-twister, but you have to repeat it after me. That's the only way I'll share it.
Keyana Corliss: [00:09:48] No good deed goes unpunished.
Matt Abrahams: [00:09:50] That's right. The reason I like this one so much is if you say it wrong, you say a naughty word. So we'll see if we have to bleep you all on this. So it's this, it's three phrases. Takes five seconds. I slit a sheet.
Keyana Corliss: [00:10:03] I slit a sheet.
Matt Abrahams: [00:10:05] A sheet, I slit.
Keyana Corliss: [00:10:06] I slit a sheet.
Matt Abrahams: [00:10:08] A sheet I slit.
Keyana Corliss: [00:10:10] Oh, a sheet I slit. This is hard.
Matt Abrahams: [00:10:13] Yes. And now the final sentence is, and on that slitted sheet I sit.
Keyana Corliss: [00:10:18] And on that slitted sheet I sit.
Matt Abrahams: [00:10:21] Very good. We didn't have to bleep you out.
Keyana Corliss: [00:10:22] That was the most brain power I've used all day, by the way.
Matt Abrahams: [00:10:24] Yes. But by saying that three times fast it warms up my voice and it gets me present-oriented. And I do that all the time. So there are things we can do to manage symptoms and sources that help us feel more comfortable and confident prior to speaking and in the moment of speaking.
Rebecca Buckman: [00:10:40] You know, so much of what you're describing is a really deliberate approach to communication and to thinking through how to manage these situations. And I just think about, you know, the executives that Keyana and I deal with, and many of our listeners deal with and try to train and try to keep on message. And how challenging is it to get powerful and important people, such as technology CEOs, to pay attention to this stuff? Oftentimes it's hard enough just to keep somebody on message. Keyana, I don't know how you think about this, but I wonder if you have tips for how people can impress this upon important people that they work with who should be doing this?
Matt Abrahams: [00:11:17] You know, I do communication consulting as well around in the Valley and work with many executives. And part of the way I have found successful when I'm trying to pitch doing this work, usually people come to me because they've had some kind of disaster or it didn't go well and they want to not ever have that circumstance again, is to help people realize that you can actually get better at this, that this is something that you can work on and it can help you. And part of your job as a leader is to role model and demonstrate effective, in the moment speaking, because that's where leadership happens. I like to say that communication is operationalized leadership. And the more that we demonstrate strong communication, the better we will be perceived as leaders. And once people understand that their little unlocks, these little steps that you can do that can make things much easier, they typically buy in. So instead of coming in and saying, here's this big methodology and you have to do all of this, you say, hey, try this one structure when you answer a question. Did it help you be more concise and clear? And often they'll say, yes. And then you say, great. Well, now try this other thing. So incremental and helping them understand that communication is actually how they lead.
Keyana Corliss: [00:12:25] I think you're spot on. And I will tell you, I've had CEOs who very, very, very much value communication and understand it's a make or break for them. And I've had ones that, you know, don't. And I think that the ones that very much value it and understand how important it is have seen sort of the impact it has had either on the business, on the decisions that they've made and want sort of seen through, on their own sort of brand. I will say, I think the longer that you're sort of in this business as a leader, you sort of understand better and better just how important good communication is. The most beloved, the most effective, and the most impactful CEOs I've worked with, and not just, you know, because they're, you know, good on CNBC, but because they're able to get sort of their ideas and initiatives implemented, do it because they're good communicators. And that, ladies and gentlemen, is why I have a job.
Matt Abrahams: [00:13:22] Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Yes, so communication is critical. And I do believe that it is a huge differentiator. So many people treat communication as a necessary evil, when in fact it is actually a huge advantage. So, you know, I teach strategic communication at Stanford's business school. We try to inculcate this idea in our students that how you communicate is critical to your success. And I love that you all talk a lot about it in the work that you do. That's how we help people get better.
Keyana Corliss: [00:13:57] Besides sharing this podcast, Becky and I have a bunch of things in common. For example, we both love a good train wreck of a PR story, and I'm assuming we both like a good glass of wine. Actually, this podcast was created over a drink. You know, we both share that, and we're both members of a comms and brand marketing expert community called Mixing Board.
Rebecca Buckman: [00:14:16] Yes. And thank you very much to Mixing Board for working to raise the value of our industry and for producing this podcast.
Keyana Corliss: [00:14:23] So Mixing Board has a very cool, savvy way of tapping the collective networks of their super-connected community so that organizations can find right senior Comms and marketing talent fast. If you are hiring for a full-time role, or trying to find the exact right consultant and want the expert guidance for an extremely reasonable price, I could not recommend Mixing Board's Talent Network more. The way it works is that Mixing Board shares the opportunity with the community - and this community is incredible, you guys, it is a who's who - and ask their members to submit candidates that they think would be perfect for the position. Most of the time, these folks are folks they've worked with or they've directly known for years, and they will quickly share back a super-qualified list of candidates and make connections where there's interest. Go to the Talent Network page at MixingBoard.com for more info, and mention Just Checking In for a special rate. The talent that comes out of Mixing Board is incredible. It is a really great way to find top-notch talent. So I encourage you guys all to go.
Rebecca Buckman: [00:15:26] But the other thing that you didn't mention, Keyana, is employee internal communications and employee morale, because particularly when you're at inflection points in the market where maybe the market is more challenging than it was before, I think using communication skills internally to help motivate your employee base is supercritical. And I don't know if you've worked with CEOs on those particular kinds of situations.
Matt Abrahams: [00:15:46] Oh, absolutely. Sometimes the biggest challenge that the executives have is the internal communication, because they have prepped and they have been really thinking about their external-facing communication. But the internal communication can be a disaster sometimes. And the same principles apply, and sometimes the stakes are actually higher internally because if you mess something up, it's really hard to recover. So yes, these same issues apply. We have to be thoughtful and mindful about all of our communication as leaders, especially internally. And when companies are smaller, I often work in the consulting that I do to help companies think about the whole communication infrastructure they put in place. And by infrastructure I don't just mean tools, although that's part of it, but the people in the process. When you're interviewing people, you need to be talking about the importance of communication. When you're doing performance reviews, communication should come up. At the end of every meeting spend 30 seconds talking about the quality of the communication, not what was said, not rehashing it, but you might say, hey, it was really valuable when you paraphrased that one point, it brought us back on target, on message or gosh, we really have to make sure we don't interrupt each other because sometimes we lose important information. All of that sends a valuable message, and it means you don't have to bring in people like me to triage the problems that you have down the road.
Keyana Corliss: [00:17:07] Why are you, why are you doing this? You're losing business.
Matt Abrahams: [00:17:10] Well, you know, I'm a teacher first, consultant second. So actually, I tell everybody I'm a reluctant consultant. It was my students who had, after a couple of years after taking my classes, they would call and say, hey, those problems you were talking about in class, we're starting to see them here, will you come in? So I'm a teacher first, consultant second.
Keyana Corliss: [00:17:27] But you know, what you're saying is, is actually very true. And I think a lot of the folks that listen to this podcast are obviously, you know, high up in their organizations as communications professionals, and they are privy to a lot more context and information than the rest of the company is. And, you know, I learned this probably oh gosh, I guess it was like 11 years ago now, when I knew what was going on with our stock price because I was involved with, you know, the writing of the scripts and all that stuff. And I realized when things came out in a way that we didn't think they would, our employees did not. Right? Because they're not in those rooms writing scripts or reading things. And so all they see is what's out there externally, right? And so that I think was kind of the first time I realized that your internal audience is actually your most important one.
Matt Abrahams: [00:18:16] Amen. I agree, I agree, and we often take the internal audience for granted.
Rebecca Buckman: [00:18:20] You know the ex-reporter in me, my ears light up when you talk about communication disasters because, you know, there's probably some juicy ones. So I mean, on the positive and negative side, I'd love to hear maybe some more specific examples from you, because they can often help bring these points home to people. Like without naming names, obviously, or company names like, what are some of these disasters that have prompted executives to come to you for help and to realize that they need help? And on the other hand, who are some of the best communicators in the business today? You know, you sit in Silicon Valley, as I do and Keyana works in this industry. Who were some of the people that do it well and why do you admire them?
Matt Abrahams: [00:18:57] So I'll give you one example of a very negative situation. There was a company, they were growing quickly. They had a very headstrong leader. And the problem was they were not taking the time to propagate information throughout the organization. So people were not clear on what were the priorities and how best they should do what they're doing. And so what happened was the symptom that initiated the contact to me was meeting bloat. They were having way too many meetings, by their own acknowledgment, and way too many people were showing up because that was the only way people could get insight into what was being done is listening to the meetings that the leaders were having. And the leader's like, these meetings are too big, they're taking too long. So it turned out that was simply a symptom of the much deeper problem of the lack of sharing information and prioritizing communication. They were moving so fast that they were tripping up because they weren't taking the time to catch everybody up, to learn from what was going on, and then prioritize. So one of the very first things I do when I go into an organization that's struggling is I look at the number of meetings they're having, who's attending, who's not attending, and use that as an indicator. It's a canary in the coal mine for what is coming later.
Keyana Corliss: [00:20:09] I hope whoever's listening to this, if you put meetings on my calendar, I hope you listen to just this part.
Rebecca Buckman: [00:20:15] Everybody's in too many meetings.
Matt Abrahams: [00:20:17] Right. Exactly. We did a two-part miniseries on Think Fast, Talk Smart about meetings and how to make them better. And just some really interesting insights. Something as simple as what you call your meeting matters, how you set people's expectations. And the advice was don't use the word meeting in the title of your meeting. Make it more action-oriented so people get more interested. So that's an example of a company that was really struggling, and we cleaned up the mess pretty quickly just by reorienting people. And all of a sudden those meetings were fewer, fewer people showed up, people understood what they were doing. There are lots of companies that get communication right. I'm very impressed by many companies around the area. What they all have in common, I would say, the ones that I think are doing it very well, one, they started with communication as being an important feature of what they do. So it was a priority, it was part of their values. Speaking of values, their values are very clear and they live them and speak them. They're not just signs on walls or bullet points on a slide deck. They actually embody them and they think about it. And when it comes to communication, they set up rules and guidelines, and they're learning and constantly evolving those so people understand what's expected and how to show up. And they are being evaluated both negatively and positively on their communication so that they can get better at it. So those are characteristics of organizations that do really well with communication.
Rebecca Buckman: [00:21:38] The other question I had is when things, this goes back to the previous point of when things are going wrong, who in the organization normally brings you in? Is it the chief communications officer? Is it a chief of staff? Is it someone else? Like how does that usually happen?
Matt Abrahams: [00:21:53] It really depends on the size of the company. I get brought in in lots of different ways. Either somebody in the people function because they're getting so many complaints. If they have a communications group, it will often be the communications group. And sometimes it comes directly from the executives themselves. You know, because I've been around doing this for a long time, and the connections I have, it's often an executive themselves will refer somebody else or something of that nature. But the triage situations are brought in because people are just frustrated. They want an outside perspective and they just want the madness to stop.
Keyana Corliss: [00:22:27] What was one of the most fascinating applications of all the things you sort of talk about?
Matt Abrahams: [00:22:32] That's a great question. So I'm going to answer it this way. And you tell me if this fits what you were looking for. So I, one of the benefits of writing this book and the work I do is I get to just meet with amazing people who are really cool, and I just want to share one story that really opened my mind to things. So I have always loved Lego. As a kid I used to play with Lego. Actually, when I get really stressed I'll actually do some building of it. For me it puts me in this flow state. It's the right amount of challenge, but also not too challenging that it stresses me out. So I was able to interview the guy who runs all of Lego's manuals. So I don't know if you remember, but when you get to Lego--
Keyana Corliss: [00:23:10] Oh my gosh, that is fascinating because my daughter loves these.
Matt Abrahams: [00:23:14] Yeah, but Lego manuals have no words. There are no words. And what I do in my classes, I'll take out a Lego manual and I'll take out an Ikea manual and I just hold them up. And then we have a 30-minute discussion about the quality of communication.
Keyana Corliss: [00:23:26] You just triggered like 100 people, by the way.
Matt Abrahams: [00:23:28] Yeah. No, I know, I know exactly.
Rebecca Buckman: [00:23:30] Divorces have been sparked by Ikea.
Keyana Corliss: [00:23:32] At least 100 people.
Matt Abrahams: [00:23:33] Yes. Yeah. Exactly. But in talking to this guy it was fascinating to me. So we got into a deep conversation so I'm just going to give you the 2 or 3 big takeaways that I think for anybody who are communication professionals, really interesting. One, you cannot write a Lego manual until you've been there for over a year. And your job in that year is to really go observe, understand those Lego builders. So a Lego manual writer knows what a five-year-old can do with Legos versus a seven-year-old. So in other words, they know their audience so well that they can tailor what they do. And many of us don't take that time to really understand our audience. We're so much in broadcast mode, just get the information out rather than understanding how the audience needs to receive the information. So that was fascinating to me. That you're hired, for a full year you don't do your job. All you do is learn about your audience. The second thing they do, and I found this fascinating, when you build Legos, you could literally make every step equal number, equal number of moves, equal number of pieces. They purposely do not do that. They purposely build in some steps that are easier, others that are harder. They want you to have an emotional experience when you're building. The usefulness of emotion in communication is often overlooked. We overindex on information. If you think about the emotional experience you want your audience to have, you can have a bigger impact. It'll be longer lasting, they'll remember it more, there's evidence to say people will act on it more. So I love that they build in emotion into their messages that have no words. So these are some guiding principles that I think really impact. And then the other thing that I learned is the power of visuals. They're all visual. There's no words. Using visuals can be really important. Video and other channels to get information across. So I learned a lot in writing the book. I found that the most fascinating of all the conversations I had.
Keyana Corliss: [00:25:27] That is one of the most fascinating things I think I've ever heard. You just blew my mind. I think we have to stop there.
Rebecca Buckman: [00:25:34] That's pretty profound. But what I was going to say, what I was going to say is the emotional, you know, the Lego manual writer thinking about triggering emotion. In some ways that's not surprising, because that's one of the key tenets of any, you know, any communications program or every time we're advising somebody that we work with. It's all about anecdotes and stories and connecting emotionally. I mean, you know, oftentimes, I think in the technology industry, stuff gets so wonky, you know, and technical. And so sometimes it's challenging for me. But to but to tell somebody like, I don't care if your audience is super technical, they are still going to relate better to your technical point if you connect with them emotionally and tell them a story or anecdote and get them to care that way.
Matt Abrahams: [00:26:19] And I completely agree. And I think those of us who do what we all do, get it. But the vast majority of people don't. The vast majority of people think their job is to broadcast what's in their head and get it into yours, and that's it. And in fact, if you want it to resonate and have impact, we need to do a lot of things. We need to make it engaging. We need to have that emotional hook. We get it. But most people don't. And I think the Lego story is a really fun way to help people realize that.
Rebecca Buckman: [00:26:46] Yeah, we're using that for sure.
Keyana Corliss: [00:26:47] Well, that's, Matt, that's why we have this fabulous podcast.
Rebecca Buckman: [00:26:50] We're totally bought in. One other thing I wanted to mention, this is sort of related, is - you talk about this a lot and I've seen you talk about this in previous interviews - is that better communication, outward-facing communication, often relates to inward-facing communication. In other words, listening. And I think you say that there are three important words. It's just three words, one phrase, that people should think about to become better listeners and that will make them better communicators. So maybe tell us what those three words are.
Matt Abrahams: [00:27:17] I feel like I'm being tested.
Rebecca Buckman: [00:27:18] I know. I love this point, I love this point.
Matt Abrahams: [00:27:21] So I'll give you my whole little spiel and I'll get those three words in. We are not very good listeners. Most of us listen for the top line, we need to listen for the bottom line. When you listen, you better prepare yourself for what you need to say. We often miss nuance because we're judging, evaluating, and rehearsing what we want to say. It boils down to three things: pace, space, and grace. You have to slow things down. Slow the pace. We move very quickly, the world comes at us very quickly. The most precious commodity I believe we have in the world today is attention. We have to pay attention. Slow down the pace. Second, you have to give yourself space. Sometimes it's physical space, be in a place where you can actually hear, but also mental space. Be present. Focus not just on what's being said, but how it's being said, where it's being said. So we have to give ourselves that mental space. And then finally, grace. We have to give ourselves permission to keep our mouths shut and listen to the intuition that's coming up as we're listening to the other person. So bottom line, not top line, pace, space and grace, you will be a better listener, your audiences will benefit from it, and your responses will be much more targeted.
Rebecca Buckman: [00:28:34] But the three words, I'm going to prompt you, I think are, tell me more.
Matt Abrahams: [00:28:38] Oh.
Keyana Corliss: [00:28:39] That was my guess! That was totally my guess.
Rebecca Buckman: [00:28:41] Yeah, it's tell me more.
Matt Abrahams: [00:28:42] So. So okay. Let me take a step back.
Keyana Corliss: [00:28:45] Tell me more about space, pace, and grace.
Rebecca Buckman: [00:28:48] I like that.
Matt Abrahams: [00:28:49] So when, so I refer to tell me more in the context of small talk. In small talk the biggest rule, and I learned this from a colleague, her name is Rachel Greenwald, is this notion of being interested not interesting. And that means you have to be curious. And the key unlock for being curious are the three words tell me more. If you can get somebody telling you more, you will learn more about them, the conversation will go more smoothly, and you are demonstrating your genuine curiosity by not speaking and inviting them to speak more. So yes.
Keyana Corliss: [00:29:23] This is also good dating advice. We're going to get people a date.
Matt Abrahams: [00:29:26] I have been out of the dating market for so long.
Keyana Corliss: [00:29:28] I have too. I'm just saying.
Rebecca Buckman: [00:29:30] So have both of us, which is why I'm wondering why Keyana is asking this question.
Matt Abrahams: [00:29:32] Yeah.
Keyana Corliss: [00:29:33] Oh my God, I'm just helping the audiences. You don't know who's single.
Matt Abrahams: [00:29:37] Interestingly enough, when I was in grad school, I was fascinated by how people use ambiguity strategically. And so my whole--
Keyana Corliss: [00:29:45] -- in dating? I think that's called, that's lying.
Matt Abrahams: [00:29:47] Well, no. So I studied flirtation. No, I studied flirtation because I needed dates and it was an interesting way to study strategic ambiguity.
Keyana Corliss: [00:29:55] That's what I'm going to start saying. I'm like, I'm just being strategically ambiguous.
Matt Abrahams: [00:29:59] Ambiguous.
Rebecca Buckman: [00:29:59] Yes, exactly.
Matt Abrahams: [00:30:01] A lot of us in the communication field are strategically ambiguous.
Keyana Corliss: [00:30:04] I'm gonna get a call from my HR after this. It's fine. Well, Matt, thank you so much for joining us. This has been fascinating. Like really really fascinating.
Matt Abrahams: [00:30:15] Thank you. It was a true pleasure to be with both of you. I really enjoy talking to people who are immersed in communication.
Rebecca Buckman: [00:30:22] Oh, and so do we since it's what we try to do in our job. So again, Matt Abrahams, thank you so much. And his latest book is 'Think Faster, Talk Smarter: How to Speak Successfully When You're Put on the Spot'.
Rebecca Buckman: [00:30:36] So if SBS comms sounds familiar, it's because you might have seen them recently listed as a Top Five Most Innovative Company in Fast Company's first-ever PR and Brand Strategies category. They're one of the tech industry's hottest agencies that's attracted the attention of companies like American Express, Cloudflare, GitHub, Flexport, and more. SBS Comms embraces a modern ethos in technology comms, shedding outdated strategies for progress and results. SBS works across industries and with companies at all stages of growth, from industry leaders to those building tomorrow's consequential breakthroughs such as Air Company, Runway, Astro Forge, Versel, Light Matter and more. You can learn more about SBS at SBSComms.com, that's a lot of comms, or by checking out their very active Instagram account where they post weekly roundups of media hits at @SBSComms. Just Checking In is produced by Astronomic Audio and underwritten by Mixing Board, a curated community of the most sought-after communications and brand marketing leaders.
Keyana Corliss: [00:31:40] Thanks for listening to Just Checking In. Follow us at @KeyanaCorliss and @RebeccaBuckman.