Sarma Melngailis (of Bad Vegan)

of love between the two of them. I mean, it's crazy because I talked to Paul about it because obviously, if Paul and I wanted to get married on television, we would have that opportunity. And Paul said, for ten million dollars, I would not get married and television. He said, I would not make my wedding public for ten million dollars. I didn't even ask him about twenty I think he'd say no. He said, my life would change forever. And I,

you know, when is enough enough? And it's funny because I was thinking about the fact that this this wedding Dolce campaign extravaganza, it was beautiful. Everybody looked amazing, and head to tell even the kids, like, would there be a breach of contract? If if if, like is that why maybe Rob didn't come because he wasn't willing to wear dolt jakobana and like he would have broken the Kardashian contract starting with a K. The new contract should

start with a K from now on. I think contracts should start with a K. But like every single I think the Kardashian dogs where they are wearing dolt Jackobanna collars, I mean it was a full fledged doltja Gabana, Like literally dolt Chackabana jerked off all over the Kardashian wedding um and I was and but by the way, they looked so happy and it was amazing, and I think, I mean, I love that she did what she wanted.

She wore what she wanted. That dress, you know, it was like a lingerie dress and with a veil of the Virgin Mary. That veil was gorgeous. Chris Jenner looked amazing and like the picture with the veil that was like up on all those stairs was amazing. And there was a video somewhere of like Kendall like trying to walk and flats up these crazy stairs in this dress, and I mean it looks like they had a great time and they are and like a their family. You know,

it was like a family dynamic. The song's sister Sledge was playing on a video like we are a family. I got all my sisters with me, which was amazing. Um. But I was talking to Paul about it, and I was he was saying, wow, like what there are no limits? Like when is enough enough? Like they can't stop, it's just more? Is more? Get every fucking nickel off that floor. We're not leaving a goddamn scent, not a cent in the joint. We are going to fucking strip this place.

This country will be stripped of every goddamn penny, nickel, you know, Subway token, drachma, any currency that starts with a K is fucking coming into our bank accounts every which way. But Sunday brands that trash just a couple of years ago, owning them events that trashed us several years ago and wouldn't invite us, taken them over. We it's a fucking smash and grab job and we are taking no prisoners. It is called It's the Kardashian country that starts with a K and we're fucking running this

motherfucker because they are not playing any games. It's the not fucking around crew. Get the funk out of the way, and while you're getting the funk out of the way, pay us to get the funk out of the way. Also, like I've been, I've gotten married on television, Like I've experienced that, I've planned a wedding on television. I've you know, there are whereas. It does make the experience different. It's not as intimate. It's strange for other people that are,

you know, in attendance, it's definitely different. There's definitely a sacrifice, so I wonder, and it's not as intimate like it is, But how do I explain it. It's like there's all this excitement that is about the actual event that's happening in your life, but it's layered and there's more excitement because there are cameras in an audience, and there's an audience in that room that's also aware that there are cameras.

So it's like you're sort of in this weird world where there are cameras on you, but there's an audience beyond the cameras. The people that the cameras aren't really capturing because they don't really care about those other people that are at your wedding, So they're sort of like extras. They're extras. You're the stars in the movie. There are cameras and they're extras watching you be in this scene,

and it's definitely different. And then you're also where that there's an audience that's people watching television around the country and the world that are watching this, and the Kardashians have a bigger stage, and then there's an audience that are watching in the media. So there's no way that you're walking and eating an ice cream cone and you're not aware. You're not dumb, You've been doing this for twenty seasons. You're aware that that's something that you're in

a role doing. The ice cream cone is a prop, you know, meaning like you know that that's like grab the ice cream cone role film. Like, So can something be as intimate? Can something be even if you've lived your whole life this way? Like, are there any private moments? You know, like, are there moments that because it's hard to be present, I've experienced it. I have a hard time being present, you know, going to an event with

my fiance that just involves me taking some pictures. I feel self conscious if I bring Brent to the I Heart Radio Words and it's twenty minutes on the red carpet, I feel self conscious that there are cameras and I'm being photographed when I walk down the street. If there's someone who takes a picture and they wanted to get a picture of me, and they less want to get a picture of her, let me get a picture alone,

I feel self conscious. There's no way that these dynamics don't happen in these grander schemes because there's so much bigger than what I've experienced. So I have, but I have some institutional knowledge, and it's just it does take away from the actual emotion of the moment and the authenticity of the moment and the intimacy of the moment. There's it's an absolute fact that that moment is is changed and that there's something about it that is for

an audience. So that's interesting, you know, And that's something that Paul, my fiance, would never subscribe to, and I mean never, so uh, it's interesting. You have to be with someone who wants to roll with that program. Travis Barker wants to roll with that program, and Tristan Thompson and Kanye wanted to roll with that program, like you can't you can't run that life and not to roll

with that hair and makeup produced filter program. A lot of you have asked me for my take on the Netflix series Bad Vegan, And not only did I watch Bad Vegan, but I had the Bad Vegan herself, Sarma melm Gollis on my podcast. She's been called the Vegan Bernie made off. But is she Sarma's coming on? And this was a controversial show. I happened to have been to the restaurant. I happened to know Jeffrey Chatterer, I

happen to have met Sarma and her ex husband. So when I saw this documentary, I was shocked because I knew some of the people which had happened with the Tinder Swindler doc too. I had met that freak one time at a party and had his business card, the Diamond guy or the so called diamond guy. So sometimes I'll see something and say, wait a second, I know some of those people. I ate that Lasagna. I wow.

So I wanted to have her on because it involves so many elements, so many things in this recipe, So many things in this raw foods recipe. Abuse, mental abuse, psychological abuse, uh, swindling, stealing money, not paying people, like, so many accusations, gambling, addiction, you know, cult like tactics. I wanted to have Sarma on. I want to hear her take. There's so much to this that I really want to dig into this. And this is a very

different interview than any interview that I've ever done. Years ago, So I lived in Chicago and for about a year I was I was raw long before it was popular. I was a natural food chef in you know, before nine eleven so um. And there was a woman named Karen h k a r y n that had a cafe and she was raw and she had studied with Anne Wigmore and about all the wheat grass and all this, like really what was really extreme, particularly in Chicago. So I've met Giuliano the raw chef, and like a lot

of those other alternative people through that world. And I've seen in New York all the different raw food cafes that were really really edgy. UM. So I was aware of Matthew even before you guys opened pure and one Lucky Duck. He was doing something with Russell Simmons for his Jivamook de Cafes, and we connected, and I had wheat eggon dairy cookies, wheat egg and dairy free cookies, so I was baking them for him in conjunction with this cafe. And then he started to do something else.

I don't remember what that was. But then I remember hearing about pure food and wine and going and the zuki famous zuchina lasagna, and then going to see the place in Chelsea Market One Lucky Duck with those like spiced cash ews and that stuff, and and and I met you there not no doing any of this stuff like, which hadn't happened yet, but I met you, I saw you were in the store. So so I say this whole story for the listeners and for you, because hey, I have no idea if you're aware of me. But

I didn't know about any of this. I'm not like I'm sort of in my own world in many cases, so I didn't know about any of this until people started saying, you need to see the show. I want to hear your comment on bad vegans. Still didn't even know that you were that person. Then some of it works with me, said it too. Then like watched it, looked it up. I'm like, I know her, I know him, I know Jeffrey Chattero, I know all these people like I know. So that was crazy. So that's like where

I came into it from. And I watched the Netflix special and then had my opinion, which we'll get into, and then reached out to you. So I don't know what you know about all that, but that was like shocking to me. I did. I did listen to Um. I went and looked at your podcast and I saw a couple of them had mentioned bad vegans, and I

went and listened to that and and um. And then I had forgotten that you knew Matthew from way back, which was kind of reassuring to me, because um, he's UM yeah, I think you said a few things that indicated that you kind of know things about him that a lot of people don't necessarily know. And so I kind of stepped into a situation with him that had some similarities to the one I've then later stepped into with the you know the guy in the in the film.

So to let the viewers the listeners know this guy, Matthew, a good looking, healthy chef, talk of the town. I'm just you know. I met him and we were gonna I was gonna bake my wheat, egg and dairy free cookies for him. I was running a natural food cafe. He was like all over the place. I don't remember him, not like paying me or not being what he said it was going to be. It didn't seem like he

was a bad person. It seemed like he was all over the place and moving from one thing to the next, getting new partner to start a new exciting thing, and then a new partner to do this. And he's very charming, and he meets a lot of different people, and he's

always onto another thing, is what it seems like. And I think he's talented because I've seen him open these new restaurants and the Vegan Mexican and the Vegan Italian and all these places in New York, and then there's something in Miami, but then it's gone, then there's something a new. So he's done a good job of moving in a lot of circles. And I don't know where anyting lands, but that was my perspective. And then seeing that you guys were together and then go into your cafe. Yeah.

Well he and I got involved, um before either of us even knew what raw food was, and so I got involved in his restaurants and and then also sort of taken down as they all closed. Um. So that was a bummer for me. Uh, you know, that left me with some negative consequences that were ongoing, um, financially, you know after we split, so and then you know, and then we opened Pure Free and One together and then we split a later um. And then yeah, from

there on, I continued running it on my own. Okay, So I watched Bad Vegan, and I commented that it felt like you were in a one person cult, and um, I washed with my fiance, and many people were very skeptical and thought you were part of it, etcetera. I didn't really think about that because it seemed very convoluted, like that would have been a really big complicated trip to go on. I don't mean your road trip, I mean like to go on to be involved, it seems

like and for what benefit. Yeah, it seems like you just got like immersed and enveloped in this thing, and it went deeper and deeper, and it does feel like a Ponzi scheme in the sense that you were deeper and deeper, and I'm sure you knew something was wrong, but I don't think you knew exactly what was wrong, and I don't think you knew how to get out. And I think that it might also have had something

to do with your previous relationships. I really need to hear from you what went down like about that does the relationship and getting in so deep when you see the numbers, So what went down? Well, I think I heard you say that in a in another podcast as well, and that is entirely correct. The cult of one dynamic because um, you know, on the other side of this, people who've been in cults and gotten out. Those are

like my people. We understand each other, and there's so many similarities between um, this guy and other cult leaders, so you know, those people have a lot of similarities. And then the tactics that they used to pull people in our um pretty much almost the same. So when I part a lot of my healing involved hearing the stories of people who've been in cults. Um. I'm friends with Sarah Edmondson from Nexium, So that whole situation with

Coprain area. I've paid a lot of attention to that and the people coming out of it talking about, um, you know, the realizations they've had because what happens is on the other side of it, everybody's going, I don't understand, how could you not see it? How come you didn't run?

How come and there? And what happened? The same thing happens to people who are in cults because it seems insane, and people don't understand how communicant run, how communicant called the police and and the problem is that on the other side of it, we all have the very same questions, Like you know, we come out of it having the same questions like I don't wait, why didn't I run? You know? And what happens is um which I think that it would help if more people understood this so

they could hopefully avoid it. But um, you know, is is the extent to which your mind gets manipulated, I think is underestimated. And then in particular, there's uh assumption that if you're a smart, intelligent person, you couldn't be manipulated. And people will say that all that they say, oh, well, that would never happen to me, or they say that or think that, Um, but it could. I mean, there's certainly certain personality types that are far more susceptible, and

I'm definitely one of those. But intelligence has absolutely nothing to do with it. And in fact, like um, you know, successful people, I mean, this has happened to a number a ton of women who have been successful and have build something and created something and then have it, you know, taken down and um in this sort of fiery crash, and in my case, in a way that made it

look like I had done it. UM. So yeah, I mean, not only was everything destroyed and I felt horrifically awful about it, and you know, all these people were hurt, and everything I've spent all these years building and creating UM was gone. But all these people I cared for were hurt. And then layer on top of that that it was made to look like it was my fault or intentional in some way, which doesn't really make sense

to me. But I can understand, you know, people being angry at me for not having seen what was going on or um. I mean, I can understand that that part of it, but thinking that there was some malist on my part, UM doesn't really make any sense. Whatsoever

with the facts of the situation. Um, and I think that, you know, I've been very public about the way the film was presented, and I wrote a lot of stuff on my website clarifying all these questions that people had and the incorrect the things that were portrayed, um, incorrectly. So I kind of wrote all this stuff, put it out there. It's there. Um, and I've been please that at least some people they have gone and um, you know, I've got a lot of massachution people who say I

watched it, I was confused at the end. You know, I'm really glad I found your website and read, you know, read what happened, and now I understand better. So um yeah, and now I'm kind of trying to come out there and be talk about it in a way that's helpful for people. Okay, So I want to break down a few things. First of all, I'm not a gotcha person. I'm not like bringing people on here. I've been on shows or so much as to like catch me in something, and I'm not doing that. But I'm not going to

just you know, I've I've got it. I'm speaking for people and myself, and I want to like break this down, because they're always multiple sides. And I'm sure you sure you're gonna take some responsibility for this because you're not just a victim of something that happened. You definitely participated in some way, I imagine. I don't mean like ripping people off per se. I just mean we all have accept some level of responsibility for the situations that we're in.

I think, I think, and you may correct me so as far as the dynamic with the person, when when you say could happened to anybody, do you feel if there's an element where you get together in the beginning and it feels great and you feel loved or you feel connected, and then you're constantly chasing the dragon to get back to that, Like that's how it keeps going.

First it's amazing, and you fall for that, and then something isn't great, but then something great happens and you keep going back, and then you get deeper and deeper. Like what about that element of just people who gets sucked into someone else's wartax? It has happened to me. It wasn't necessarily someone who was abusing me by any

means or um. It wasn't someone who abused me, but it was something where there was no reason I would stay in this situation, and I kept staying in it because I kept thinking like I was imagining it or that it would get better, because I was going back to some stuff from the beginning. And also what was going on in my own life was I was feeling alone and it was the only thing that I really had going And sometimes as you're older, you don't really want to go look for something or be alone, and

so it's the most familiar thing to you. So I want to talk about that aspect of just the interpersonal getting like staying with something that is obviously unhealthy, for getting cult or anything like that, just that that dynamic. Yeah, I mean, it's all related. Um. In my case, I think it's very very common that there's this period of time that people call love bombing in what's being termed narcissistic abuse type relationships. UM, And that wasn't really the

case in my situation. UM, you know, it was a bit more complicated than that. But whatever, you know, what happened happened so gradually over a long period of time. And what's shocking to me, UM, when I've gone back and read the correspondence that I was able to retrieve, which is only some of it, not all of it, um, And he had tried to delete everything, so he you know, he tried to like wipe out all the you know, evidence of everything, which is pretty telling, and I'm trying

to recover it all, um. But looking back at it and reading all of it was you know, it's me trying to figure out what's happening. And what was shocking is how many times. I mean, I did remember this, the number of times in the beginning that I tried to push him out and get rid of him, and then one way or another he would kind of get back in charming by charming you in some way it

was less charming and more like sometimes circumstantial. And then also, um, I don't remember exactly the timing of it, but once he got me to give him money, you know, uh, claiming of like some kind of insane emergency and he needed it right away. And so if you're kind of a kind generous person and you're not, you're not by nature suspicious, um, you know, so I was able to

give him some money. But then that was like the hook that because if there were times in the future where he would say, um, well i'm gonna bring you money. I'm gonna come, I'm gonna pay you back, I'm gonna bring you money. And then I'd be like okay, And so he'd come, you know, see me over the weekend, and maybe he'd bring me some money, but not what he said it was, and it wasn't, you know, even

half of what I had loaned him. And but then he'd be in front of me, and for some reason, whenever I was in his presence, it was a lot harder to um. It was as if he had more power when we were when he was in front of me in ways that I don't you know that I still don't quite fully understand. So so the but the hook being you said circumstantial, that makes some sense. If you disconnect from him, you're not going to get the

rest of the money. And when you say circumstantial, did he often says it seemed like he was going to solve certain problems for you. You I'll handle this for you, and you sort of like had these false hopes of these different things that he was promising you. So that was another hook. Is that is that accurate or now? Yeah? Yeah, And I think that I heard described something that made so much sense to me and sort of answered, you know,

an open question that I had was UM. A guy named Mark Presente who was in the Next Um Cult and he's in that UM that documentary of the HBO The Vow, and he that they in a podcast with Sarah and Nippy who are also in it. They were

talking about UM. You know, because that guy keithri and Are is really goofy and people look at him and think, how could everybody have since worshiped him as if he was some kind of a god, and how could they believe that, you know, these outlandish claims he made about himself being, you know, the smartest person in the world and all these ridiculous claims looking back, And something that Mark said that made so much sense to me was UM.

And I'm completely paraphrasing, and I probably should have I wrote it all down somewhere, but that it's what they do, is they find they find a way of presenting you with like your idealized self, so all your kind of hopes and dreams and and who you really want to be. And in my case it was UM, I wanted to be independent and able to grow my business and you know, and do good things and build this brand and be

independent and free. And that's kind of what he um not necessarily directly, but that's kind of what he got me attached to. Was as if he could enable me and he could get me there or he could deliver that um and and things were never stated explicitly, so it was always kind of very vague, but it's like, that's what I got attached to because I never understood. People would say to me like, well, you know, you you know the things you do for love, and I

was like, it's not quite. That's not right. It's not like I might have in some way I felt like I loved him, especially early on, but you know, even in the beginning it, you know, from what I read in our correspondence and what I remember, I mean, I was afraid of him. I didn't, you know, even the first time he saw me. After that, the first time I saw him in person after that, I was like, uh, yeah, I probably shouldn't. You know, he's not really what I

thought he was going to be. I shouldn't see him again. So it wasn't like this love attachment. And I think what happened was um you know what, but like him are extremely good at which is dangerous is reading people and very very quickly understanding precisely what are your buttons, what are your weaknesses, what are your hopes and dreams? What can he You know, he would know exactly what types of things to say, and you know subtly that

would get me unconsciously attached or hooked. Well, that's that's what they do. So I guess if we're not realizing that someone, it's much easier to be scammed. I mean, if a person, if they are the scammer and that's what they do, and you have no idea it's coming, you're just wide open as a human being. And that's why many of us get less trusting. But it's funny that you brought up the guy from Nexium to Keith, because I call it with women, um in, non non

cult leaders. I mean, I call them trick guys, men who seem they're not that go looking, they're not like that being stud and so you think they're going to be safe because what the hell you know? They can't get they can't get anyone. They're gonna be loyal to you, they're not that attractive, they're sort of dorky. So, but they can be very dangerous because they probably have a lot of insecurities from not being the best looking person, the best looking man, and you know, now they have

something to prove in life. Yeah, I think that, um, all of all what you said is correct. I've always been much better at if somebody is coming at me. My instinct is not you know, I'm not good with founder. I have not historically been good with boundaries. Um. If somebody mistreated um, well I avoid conflict, um, but just not not good at kind of not good at protecting myself.

But if somebody and this is this happened a number of times, if somebody mistreated one of my employees or Leon, my dog, It's like I would turn into a roaring lion, like I have yelled at people and you know, demand and that, you know, how dare you speak to her like that, get out, you know, get the funk out of here or whatever. I would. I have screamed at people in the restaurant to get the funk out, like how dare you you know, say that to one of

my hosts and so on? Behalf of somebody else I can turn into, uh, you know, like this Mama Bear defender. But what about your mother? When? What about your mother? When? So I saw in the documentary that he was this what's his name again? The man? Sorry, well, his real name is Anthony Strangers and in my book, so I'm I'm working, I'm almost done with a book, but I call him Mr Fox. So, Mr Fox, you did not find out until the very end that he was taking

money from your mother? I think, yeah, So I was in um, I was in the Tennessee jail talking to my sister, uh when I found out, you know, how much he had taken from my mom. So I mean I think, I, you know, to be to be completely forthright, I think I knew that he must have I knew that he must have been I knew that he was kind of getting money. Like sometimes he would, uh you know, have her, have me send money to her, and then

she would give it to him. And so I kind of you know, I think I knew at times that she had given him money and then you know, I thought he gave it back to her or um, you know, and I think I knew that he must have taken some from her. But you know, when I when I heard the amount and it was like it was just one of those many moments that I had where I just you know, fantasized a meteor hitting the earth exactly where I was at that moment, because I just wanted to, like,

you know, curl up and die. Because I would say, that's the line if you had any idea that his he was he was manipulating your mother, that I would think you would kill him, like I would think you would grab him by the juggule, like go for the juggular. How much did he take from your mom? And how much from you? What's the grand tally? Um? I think I believe from my mother he got over four roughly four hundred fifty grand, which you know she didn't have my mom's and she runs a business, so um that

put her in a really compromised position. Um, which has been among the worst parts of this the aftermath. Um. You know, it's one thing if he only took from me and I was the only one that was harmed, but all the other people being harmed as well, it's most difficult to deal with. And then for me, Um, I don't know that I ever did like a precise total, because it's also a lot of it was in cash and um, not a lot, but some of it. But anyway, I think it was you know, it was over um,

over two million dollars she said he got from me. Yeah, and I you know, I was in I mean, part of what made me feel held back when he came and found me was, um, you know that after my relationship with Matthew, I was in a lot of debt from that and I carried that and it was this kind of it was a big weight and it was you know, and then I had but you know, effectively bought the restaurant from Jeffrey Chattero for a note, so I owed that money. So I just felt sort of

I had been saddled with debt. And it's something hit me the other day where I realized that it's been twenty years that I've been a human being with like unreeldy unmanageable, uh, large amounts of debt on It's been twenty years, and I felt a lot of Yeah, what is it now? What is the debt now? Um? I think I said at the end of the film, um, And then people acted like I didn't care because I laughed. But I laughed because when I sat down and did

a rough total with a friend of mine. The number that I came to was so large that it just seemed like you know what I mean, it was like it it made me laugh in a like holy sh it kind of a way. Um, but it's it's you between four and six million. But you know, again, I don't necessarily know, because there's you know, in some some places that you know who knows interest and penalties, and and then there are some people. You know, I've heard from some people who said, like, you know, oh, I've

written it off, don't worry. But so I don't know the exact total, but it's something that I have to do. Um, I will, you know. I sort of fantasize about the day that it's completely paid and done. I get it. Um. So the employee, there's a lot to go through. So that's why I'm like, I want to make sure to

try to get to a lot of it. Many people listening may not even realize that you were, uh, in a relationship with a man who just kept, like like the Tender Swindler times ten, kept asking for more and more money, and you've got deeper and deeper. So I just want people to like sort of a lot of people know the story of it, maybe a lot don't. So what about the employees, Now that's that's a big

hot ticket item. The employees who you seem to have a great relationship with, they were skeptical of this relationship with uh this Fox this Mr Fox and then you owed them? What did you? What did you owe the employees when you ran? And they were all picketing outside the restaurant? Like, what's the actual number in totality? So here's where And we'll get into the whole Netflix thing too.

You can talk about it, know what I'm saying. We're going to get into everything and the inaccuracies, if there are right and so among them is like I didn't run, and also they they they were um, they were paid and then he took me away and then they were not paid and therefore owed money. So it's not like I didn't pay them and then ran. Okay, but what does that mean? But what does that mean? He took

you away? You you went away? I'm saying like you're saying like in the cult mentality, you just were brainwash and went like you did go away from your This is now getting interesting because the cult people go there and live there, and they're living that world and in many cases they're farming and having sex with each other, and like it's one like world. You still have a business that you're running with people that aren't in this cult, and so like you are like still living in the

world of having your own apartment. So so now you're like leaving the people that work for you that you're paying in a transactional business way and going awfully took you. So that's where it gets strange and different. So I want to really understand what that part means, because you're leaving people, But then what do you mean what would the show's movie shows that they're picketing while you're gone or something? So can you explain what happened financially with

these employees? Well, you know, I only found out after the fact, but um, what does what does that mean? Meaning? Like when I was arrested in Tennessee, when I when I first spoke to somebody, anybody, my sister, whoever it was that I first spoke to from there, Um she could have told me that the restaurant was still open because somebody had kind of stepped in and taken over and and it was still running for all I knew, and so the entire whatever, I literally don't understand. Who

would have said, isn't it your restaurant? Yes? But I mean theoretically somebody I don't know. Again, I just it's hard to explain. It's like somebody taking me and putting me in a quasi comma for nine months, right, But you can't say someone could have cut Like, no one could come in here and do this podcast for me today because I've like decided to go somewhere even if

I'm in a coma. I'm just saying, like that thought of someone could come in, like it is your restaurant that you owe Jeffrey Chatterw money for it, I'm not really could have you know, theoretically, I suppose in terms of like who would have had the legal authority, you know, he probably had the legal authority to come in or somebody I don't know, But there's no like someone could have the legal authority to come in. But like there

needs to be a conversation. It's a restaurant with like raw food recipes, like someone can had to show up and start making zucchini lasagna with dehydrated you know, and and cash you like cheese, Like it's so, what was the conversation when you're leaving, Like, isn't it like I'm leaving my raw food restaurant, So Jeffrey, like you just walked out of there, and like the employees can't run a restaurant. Employees can't run my business. Oh mine could have.

They could have. This is where, you know, part of the reason why I feel so close to people who've been in cults is because you know, when I say things that night sound kind of crazy or hard to understand that other people, um the sort of former cult people to get it. So when he told me that, like to think of it as if time stopped and we were just sort of like, you know, we had

to we had to step away. We had to we had to walk away, and like being this altered like um universe basically Yeah, So it was like as if as if it wasn't real in a way, and I and that sounds bonkers, but you know, there was a moment um A guy that I know who was in the Moonies and has since become a psychologist and gone on to write really helpful books about cult psychology, UM and talking about his experience on the Leamy on Leah

Remnis show. He said, at one point, he said, if they had told me to kill somebody, I would have and you know I wouldn't have. You know, I wouldn't have killed somebody. I could. I'm pretty sure I could say that I wouldn't have killed somebody. But I understood the you know that it was painful to hear. Painful, but also it's so tragic. It was tragic to hear because I understood that. I understood how it could get to that point, and so um so his taking me

away and and telling me that. Basically, it's to think of it as if time, like as if the rest of the world time stopped and we were like slipping into an alternate like you know, some sort of parallel universe. You know, I think I just you know, I don't know. It's as if like I was some sort of subdued animal that just became um, you know, somebody who he

could do this too. And you know, when I when I talk about that time away sort of in shorthand, I just you know, it's like I refer to it as like the road trip from Hell, because um, you know, it's it's been sort of painful for it to be depicted in you know, originally in the sort of tabloid media and whatnot, as if like we ran off and you know, when we're staying yeah, and like living the high life and being and and and the reality was so wildly, wildly different from that. The reality was more

like those videos that he had taken of me. Well, that's okay, So I have a couple of questions about that. So now you're away, So can you just tell me the number with the employees and where the money went and where that is now, and what they're what they all feel about it, what they all think about this

whole thing that they've been through. Well, the other it was it was my impression, and I thought that I was told that the end of the film was going to state that they had all been paid because they've been paid. They were paid in um or the amount that they were owed was paid. Um. Yeah. So so normally, you know, one doesn't the thing about documentaries, which I think I think there needs to be like a new category, because you know, I say that bad being into like

should not be called a documentary. But normally people don't get paid so um. On the one hand, you know, people were assuming that I must have been paid millions of dollars. I was not, but I was given an amount that covered what the employees were owed. And so you know when when that sort of went through, because I agreed to participate, but I wanted that amount, that amount that they were owed to get paid. Is that

why you did it? Well? I mean, I mean I thought it was gonna I wanted it to be something that would be useful and helpful, and so I wanted to do I wanted to tell the story. Um. But I also you know, but I also wanted my employees paid. So I worked that out as part of the deal. So they were paid in March of it. Like just so happened that the Wired situation went through the day that New York City of restaurants were shut down because

of the pandemic. Um. So I felt like that was a good day for a lot of them who were probably still in the restaurant business to get kind of work that like, you know, the money's there, they can whatever they were owed. Um, and what have they said? Where are they with it? Now? Do you talk to

any of them? Like is it clean? I do? I talked to a lot of them, I mean, with all of the ones that I talked to in particular are the ones who were there for a long time, who knew me really well, and I think they knew, you know, they knew me really well, as did a lot of customers and sort of followers. Knew me well enough to know that that business was my whole life of that

brand was like my identity. So they knew that that, like they knew that something terrible happened, not that I would have destroyed it, because that didn't make any sense. And it was a valuable brand and we had so many opportunities, so the idea that I would have willingly

destroyed it made no sense. So even if they didn't, you know, even if they didn't understand what had happened, they knew that, like, something terrible happened, and that was the drastic and so even I mean, it was painful to see, like really painful to see those picketing images,

but I understood. To me, I kind of almost thought of it as like as if because I had an almost maternal relationship with all of them, in some ways, I felt very protective of them, and so it was as if, like Mom, you know, got this boyfriend that she then went off the deep end with and abandoned them, and so, um, of course they were angry. But you know some of the people in those photos, Um, you

know it happened. I think a couple of times that I ran into people just on the street in New York and it was like we immediately fall into a hug and I started crying. Wow. Um, so what about where is he now? What happened? Did he respond? Did he try to sue? Did what is he? Where did that guy go? And what happened to him? Um? There is an article written about where he is now, which, um, he's in uh somewhere outside of l A apparently, which

is you know, good for me that he's on another coast. Um, And I had followed, you know, I used to look periodically every few weeks um before on Twitter, just to kind of you know, because when somebody like that is out there, you would rather keep tabs on him, which is kind of part of the reason why I was

in touch with him on the first places. Like you'd rather know where they are than worried that they're gonna you know, so I would I would kind of periodically look at his Twitter, and I did see and then he got booted off of Twitter. Um I don't know why, but I can imagine he said something whatever. But um, before that, I saw from some of the pictures, and like I knew he had gone to ally, but as a functioning individual, like as as what name as a no, I mean, I mean as as pretending he's I'm just

saying he's not. He's not been arrested. It's like a tender swinow who's just living his life and no problem. Well we were both arrested in Tennessee, that's right. And then what happened was I got out on bail. He didn't, so he stayed. Uh, he stayed at Riker's for a year. And then I got I got out on bail. You know, I thought my case, which was kind of pointless, and um, you know, I wasn't going to go to trial because I didn't have the stomach or the funds for that.

So I did what a lot of people do and just you know, take take the plea. And then you know, the sickening thing was that I had to go and serve um my months at writer as I call it, my summer on the Island um after he was released, So I was locked up while he was out free. You know, now he's out free, clean slate, and I had clean What does that mean? Clean slate for him?

Because I mean clean slate for him, because he's not saddled with the deck even though technically, um, I think we're jointly responsible for uh like roughly eight hundred and fifty thousand. But you know, he's one of those people that he's never going to pay a dime and he doesn't give a ship. So I will because I give a ship, and I'll figure out a way too, you know, I'll figure out some way down, you know, to to

make that happen. So and it's your opinion that the money's gone, that it's gambled, that he's a gambler, and you didn't even realize what a gambler he was, right, And he didn't act like. He didn't he didn't act like I don't think he's a typical gambling addict. I think he's like more of the sociopathic variety where they kind of don't really care. They like the risk and

the stimulation. And so it makes sense that he gambled, but not in a way that it's different than a typical um like when a normal person has a gambling addiction. It's like this tragic. It's very tragic because it's um, you know, because they're just they're destroying their lives and they're like losing money and they feel guilt and shame and la la la. He didn't none of that because

it's not his own money. Maybe there's a difference in the emotional way you feel and it's not your own money, and it's just you're playing with the house is money. You're literally somebody like him. For me, if I was like investing money on behalf of other people and I lost it, I'd feel worse than I would. No, no, no no, no, I'm saying, right, Okay, that's an interesting for somebody who doesn't have a conscience, you know, it's just sort of like life as a game and destroying actually people was

fun and um you know. And that's sort of the point because people also have asked me a lot um. You know, we were in this really strange town in Tennessee and people like, well, what were you doing there? And I'm like, I don't know, Well, what was the plan if you hadn't been arrested, Like what was the plan. I'm like, I don't know. I have no idea. You know, I didn't know if he had any money in the end.

I didn't know if he ran out of money. I didn't know if he maybe he got us arrested intentionally, which is I know sounds weird, but I think that might have been the case. Um so Uh. There's a lot of unanswered questions, but they make more sense in the context of him being um, the type of person that he is without without a conscience and him I don't think so. I think that I maybe thought that I was or um, it was more. It wasn't love.

It was like this sort of sickening attachment, kind of like do you ever feel anything towards him in your mind? Like because it's in your body, having nothing to do with logic, Like you were like if you were in a cult, I wonder if you still do you still like if you saw him, would he have the potential to make you feel weak again in some way? Do

you think that hold on you in some weird stick way. Um, I would be well, I would be afraid to see him, but I would feel like now, I mean, I would feel strong enough that I don't, you know, I'm I'm aware that, you know, he has this intense way of looking. I'm aware that he could say anything in you know, he could say all kinds of things, and you know, I wouldn't believe him unless he liked sprouted wings and you know, floated up in the air and turned into

a you know, shape shifted into some other. Like basically, I wouldn't believe anything. Um, even though you probably didn't before too. Though it's different, like you don't believe them, but your body is believing them, Like you don't believe them, but you're still going in that direction, did you what's your relationship like with your parents? Now? Um, it's fine,

it's good. I mean my you know, my my two my parents are both you know, they're very kind of down to earth, non judgmental people, and um, and it's to the extent that it's it's not strained with my mother, but I feel it's upsetting that I I sort of feel kind of queasy around her, not around her because of her, but because of the guilt that I feel like like all of that was my fault. And so the extent to which she's you know, still working and

not retired or feel like that's my fault self consciousness. Yeah, and we even um just the other day, I came up with that there's something she wanted to ask me about. So we agreed, we talked about it, but it's we haven't talked about all of it in as much detail as one would think. I think in part because we both find it kind of nauseating and like, you don't you know what I mean. It's like, you don't you

don't really want to go there. So there's even things where in writing my book, I'm I'm sort of like, well, I wonder, you know, I have questions that I want to ask her, but then I don't even like but I don't want to. I don't want to put her in the position of having to go back there and remember. So I'm just like, well, I just won't get the answer to that question, you know what I mean. It's

so that's that's how I do. I'm just my gut is saying to me, that's an interesting dynamic in your household that it's sort of like, let's just brush it under the rug and athlete didn't happen where it could be healing. But also maybe there's something to that dynamic that gravitated both of you towards this type of person that you both I don't want to say fell four because you both got brainwash, but there's a certain personality type I'm sure people target, and I just think it's interesting.

Maybe you both should probably address it and start being the active participants versus the the people that thinks have been too. I just I'm not a shrink. I just that's the first thing that came to mind, Like you should just you you fucked up, and you put her in a position and you were burning washed and then she was brainwashed. It's a shitty situation. You feel guilty. You might as well just bring it out. Not on Thanksgiving dinner, but I feel like you should probably just

like lay it out. I mean, it's only we don't talk about it at all, but it's just that you know, the money is not everything, but this could this toxic, this toxin could probably it is bad. Is worse than losing money, I would say, So that's just that's my unsolicited opinion. You could throw it in the garbage. Yeah, And and things with my father are also fine. He um.

He insisted on visiting me a lot when I was at writers, which I kept telling him he didn't need to do because it's it's not like you just show up and hey, I'm here and visit somebody. It's like a huge, huge ordeal and um he's you now, really good chape. But he came. I think he came like four times to see me, which he insisted on doing so. And what was that experience like that being in jail? I mean it was it's it's my book doesn't even go there. I'll have to write another because I don't

have time to get into that. But it was its own, um, incredibly interesting experience that on the other side of it, I feel like, um, I'm really grateful for being exposed to things that, um it fall into that category of things that make you a more compassionate person. Um. I mean, were you terrified? And was it not as bad as you thought? Like what I don't even mean, I just yeah, just were you terrified? And what was it? What was

it was? It? Was it a learning experience not just that you don't want to go back there, but just was there anything positive about being in prison? Um? I think positive and and I mean it was an amount of time that was. It was a bummer, but it wasn't like years, so it's not you know, I know there's a lot of people that are falsely accused and convicted and go away for sometimes life and or even five years, ten years. That's all hideously awful. So you know,

a summer effectively is not the end of the world. Um, but it still sucks, and it still sucks. It's still scary. UM. I think in the film they asked, um, the director asked my father if he was worried about me going to writers, and my father said, no, I knew should can handle herself. UM, which made me. I mean, it's some people thought that would upset me, but it actually made me feel good. UM that he like had confidence

that I would be able to handle myself. UM. And I did, and towards you know, the more the longer I was there, the more comfortable I got, so UM. I also, Um, Well, the sentence was four months, but I had already served roughly two weeks or twenty days when I was first arrested before I was out on bail. So when I went back to do the remainder of the four months, it was like three and a half months,

that's sometime. And yeah, it was the summer summer of sen so some people summer at the Hampton's summer that kers summers interesting, that's what crazy. Yeah, I mean there's there's a lot of a lot of crazy stuff happens there, and there's a lot of stuff to see just about humanity in general. But um, but yeah, I mean it's something I could I could write a separate book about just that part of it. Yeah, did you keep in touch with anybody from prisonage? You meny interesting people there?

Like did you learn something? Were they hard on you or just was it just just a crappy lodging experience with some discipline? Um, you know, I learned a lot

um even now I think I have. You know, I haven't flown in a long time since before COVID, and so I was going through the security line and the way that, uh, they were sort of particularly grumpy t s A. You know, sometimes they're like happy and care and sometimes they're really grumpy and you're like afraid to like, oh my god, I'm gonna like I supposed to take my laptop out and I didn't know what me And then you have to take your shoes off and you

have to walk through the security thing and all of it all of a sudden and kind of the way they're dressed all of a sudden. I was like reminding me of being in jail. And I got through security and like burst into tears and I was like, WHOA, I guess that. I guess that still affects me in some way. Um. I was was not expecting. So there is there is um. Um. You know, there's something inherently sort of traumatic about being locked up. Um. But but also there were things about it that I mean, I

read fifty plus books. I got a jillion letters from people that were incredibly kind and well like, I got tons of letters, people mailed me loads of books. Um. And the longer I was there, the more confident I got in terms of I just handled myself in a way that was very not I was able to like avoid any confrontation. So if somebody tried to engage me and getting a fight or start something, I was just like, you couldn't. It was like trying to fight a noodle,

Like I wouldn't. I just wouldn't react. And UM, and I think the um, you know, the people that I was in the door because I was in a dorm with fifty other women and a lot of that. The population and there is constantly rotating, so there are always people coming in. But the people that were there the longest, um and the ones who sort of like ruled, you know, there's always like group dynamics is always like the ones that are in charge that everybody is afraid of. I

have a good relationship with them. And yeah, so nobody, nobody really messed with me. Um wow, Okay, Well that's nice and lucky and a good story, because I wouldn't. It's all the movies for us. I think we it happened. It's it's really a big it happened. Like, you have a reason to feel guilty. You have a reason to self load, you have a reason to be self conscious. You have a reason for all these things you just said. But you need to fucking put that away now into

a box. You could write a letter to all the ten people, the Jeffrey Child or everybody, and you need to seal that up with a key, and you need to go to work and make money and start paying these people back. Like if I understand you're upset, and you should be, but like if you if we think about what's going wrong. If I think about all the

things that are going wrong, I can't do it. Like and I'm pretty successful and I make a lot of money, and I but like I go, so you have to, like just because I'm you've got to like become a little bit cold now. And it happened. I'm sorry to everybody. I'm sorry, Mom, I'm sorry. And now you have to pull yourself up in your bootstraps and start really making money, because then it can have an happy ending, like this can have a happy ending. Yeah, I mean, I actually

I actually believe. And I think, um, you know, it's not like I'm sitting here alone eating bond bonds and trying all day at all. So and I think that you know what you said about putting it at a box. Um, some people have said, you know, why would you you know, why would you put yourself writing through the book? That

must be so hard. And for me, I feel like that has been a necessary process to go through it, you know, put myself through having to read all this stuff, having to be really honest, and you know, writing, writing the story, writing my feelings, writing importantly, writing as much as I as much as I can figure out and um, be insightful about how it happened. Hopefully when other people read it, it will help them avoid stepping into the

same thing. So once I'm done writing that, it's like then I feel like that that's and that's done, and now I can kind of now I can move on from trying to look at it and analyze it, and that will be a big relief, um, when that's done, and I can kind of focus this cluse of we on other things. And I am focusing on other things, and I have you know, some things that are in the works that will hopefully, um, you know, help me enable me to be able to go on and do

some useful productive things. Yeah, like like document I'm going to make four millions doll this is it. I'm starting my journey right now. I'm going to make four million dollars. And this is what I'm gonna do. I'm bar attending, I'm an assistant, I'm dancing by the airport. Whatever you decide, you go and you're like, and then you show everybody I got I I I made a mistake. I'm gonna pay my mother back, I'm gonna pay Jeffy back, and

I'm going for it. It It would just I feel like it would be like you survived Rikers, so like you, you don't think about the debt, don't think about the past. I can make four million dollars, so you can make four million dollars. So that's what I that's my I've been very unsolicited in my opinions, and I don't believe in them, so you can throw it all away. I just I don't know why this, just because I know all the people and because I saw it, and I don't know, and I just provoked me, so I wanted

to sort of talk to you. And like the Pep, my fans were very invested in this too, So I feel like I'm trying to you know, get for them too, not just to talk to you about. And I think there's a you know, going forward, there's a um, you know, I think there will always be a balance of UM. I think I'll always I'll always talk about it to

the extent that I feel like it's useful. Uh. And in particular because you know, a lot of a lot of this sort of vitriol that's come at me and and people you know, yelling at me that it's my

fault and I'm a criminal. And this I've heard from so many, mostly women, but some men, but mostly women, who will write me private messages that are absolutely heartbreaking, and um, I feel like because I have this, because what's happened to me is very public, and I have a platform that I feel I feel responsible, Like I feel like I want to speak out for them because they don't have a platform and they can't talk about it.

And they always said, you know what they what I hear over and over and over again is um, you know, watching your story now I feel less alone or you know, and I get that happen that's happening to me. I get that, that's the equation. It's jumping off the page for me. The four to six million dollars, your mom, it's just jumping at me. I get that you're helping

other people, you're paying for that's a touching story. And it is, and there are other people saying that story too, and the world, the people the victims of the tender Swindler, and the documentary showed it too. I think it should be doing that and check that box and figuring out a way to pay the like I owe nobody anything, and that would suffocate me, and that should be your main focus, not just helping it so that it could happen,

but that should be the main focus. Just just like I'm so unsolicited, I totally apologize and I'm not coming I'm really not. I'm just passionate about this. I don't know what you know that reminds me of because I mean, yeah, I'm it is absolutely suffocating, and so you know, getting out from under that is is my main uh is my main priority. Um, but I did I think you asked me in the beginning, you know what I know. And I've never watched, Um, I've never watched Real Housewives

because I can't like people fighting makes me upset. Again, I can't watch stuff like that what I did years ago when um, when Beth to Me was on I and I don't watch a lot of TV, but I got like sucked in and I watched all of that and I'll never forget one couple parts. But one part, um, when it was right when you sold your business and um, he sometimes I feel like you don't want to name certain people. But he said to you, Um, he said to you, and in the moment, I think I started

to crying. But he said to you, uh, something like, now you can be selective about what you want to do, and I was like, that's what I want so badly. I want to be able to be selective about what I want to do. I don't want to have to do something for money. I don't want to owe somebody. I don't want to have to do something because I feel like I owe them. I I want to have to do I want to do good work, and I want to do it in an uncompromised way with integrity, and I want to you know, I want to do

all these things. And that that's what I wanted so badly. So I remember that moment. Um you know, that moment just stuck in my head when he said that, I was like, that's that's what I want. I just want to be able to, you know, move forward and grow this brand in a way that um young and Judge Judy said, you could be you know, any age and be an entrepreneur. And I didn't. I wasn't didn't become

really successful until my late thirties. My whole my book business is Personal is out now and it's all about this stuff and how the mistakes become uh successes. This is a big, big fucking mistakes. So it's going to

be a whole to dig out. But because you do have a platform not just about not only about helping people, this has happened to which is important, and going back and backtracking while that happened psychologically and emotionally, while you have to do that, you don't have the luxury of just doing that. You have to get get a plan, get on the road and start. It will be empowering the minute you get the momentum of starting to make money and and and this debt will will You'll get unleashed.

So that's got to be that has to be a major shift. Like I know that you're thinking about it and it's plaguing you, but it's like it's plaguing you. You need to be tackling it, Like it needs to be your bitch now. That debt is. You're the bitch of that debt now, and you need to make that

debt your bitch. That's the difference. Yes, about the about what's happened and your mother and the emotions and survivors and all that's great, but this debt you need to make your bitch, is all I'm saying let's starting now. I'm just I've never been like this on this podcast to anyone, so I know that it's right because I can't stop saying it. So I'm gonna stop saying it. But I'm just telling you you need to become a badass. Now you're a victim, and you need to become a badass.

You were a victim. So that's that's just I don't want you to throw this advice away. I'm not going to say that again because I don't think you should. So anyway, Um, Alec Baldwin came up in this whole thing, which is funny, and he's been through his own ship storm. Has he surfaced in any of this or did he have any reaction to any of this? Or is he's

just an anecdotal piece of this. Um. Well, we have spoken and I think that, you know, like everybody on the other side of it, he was probably you know, like what the hell happened? And embarrassingly, UM, I think I mentioned earlier when I got when I got out, um, when I got out on bail and I got back into my email because I had been you know, Mr Fox had controlled my email that year that we were away and I so I, and I didn't have the password, so I had to like go through jump through hoops

with Google to get back into my old email. And when I got in there, um, I saw that he deleted all of our correspondence um between me and him. And then there was this moment where I was like huh, and then I clicked into the scent folder, and that, more than any other moments, I think that's when I wanted the meteor to hit me. And I like, I just was like, oh my god, oh my god. I was reading these emails that he sent to people as me wanting to just die, and so Alec was one

of those people that he had written to. You know, he also wrote to my little brother. He wrote back to people in my family. He wrote back to he was like begging people for money as me, and I'm I'm like oh yeah, and and and like put and then and and and one of Alex applies, he says something that's the equivalent of like you don't sound like you, you know, like what like he so, But the thing is, nobody really thinks like if you can eat some right,

that doesn't occur to you. And I think that and that's why when it was like I couldn't to me, I felt like, kind of I feel so stupid, like trying to reach out to people and saying that wasn't me. But if anybody, if I could like open up that email and show people, like, here's all the emails and if you see them all together, because in some cases people would say to me, Okay, well you need to call me and we'll talk about it, and then that thread would drop and then they'd be like, I understand,

why can't you call me? Um? You know so? And then there were emails there to Jeffrey chatero UM and that was just like that just made me feel so sick to my stomach and didn't say anything. Now like have they because this is a little bit of vindication. At least they got those emails. At least you have a little bit of indication. Have any have you spoken to Jeffrey or Alec? I've met Alec, I know Jeffrey you have. Yeah. I'm on I mean, I'm on good

terms with most everybody. There are some people I haven't spoken to. Um And again, it's like what you're saying, so you know, to to go back and reach out to some of these people. It's it's draining, time consuming, and and people have said, well, why don't you reach out to this, and it's like, well, if I did that, that's all I'm doing. I want to focus on moving forward because I want to importantly repay all this I want to get out and I want to read. I'd

rather focus on repaying, you know whatever. You don't need to talk like spending like an entire day with just you know, emotionally draining hours talking to somebody who may or may not understand. And so I'm sort of, you know, for any of those out there who have not heard from me, who might be wondering, like, why the hell hasn't she reached out, It's like I want to and then I'll but like I just want to I just

want to find a way to repay everybody. I just want to get the money back and repay like I'd rather I'd rather reach out and go, hey, you know, what are your wiring instructions, and I want to give you some money back, and by the way, let's talk about what happened, you know. I don't. I just I'd rather be in a position of being able to repay them and and then talk about it. Um, I am, and like I said, because it's so dreamy, Yeah, I

get it. I mean, you know how people say in a a like you have to apologize to everybody, and you could do that, I guess in your own way, but I would agree that it's more important for the action staff, and which is good. And then I guess I don't know. I mean, I first of all, I thank you for talking to me. Um. I know I have an aggressive personality, so by no means that I want you to think that I was like coming at you or I have some angle or I thought it

was something. I literally just wanted to talk to you about it because I just felt like I was gravitating towards the topic and the situation. It's a mixed bag of craziness and and um, and I just thought that I don't know, people could learn from it, that we could just have an honest conversation. So I really am grateful. And I think the other the other part of it that's used is that it can like it can help people recognize as if it might be happening to their

sister or their friends. And so it's like the more people understand this type of a thing, and the more people understand and um like sociopathy and what that means and that it's a thing, and I hope that people start to understand it better. But then I also I hope it doesn't become one of those overused terms the way that like people kind of overuse gaslighting. Now, Oh,

I know what you said. Well, by the way, it's important, yes, and you've talked about well, I've experienced psychological and verbal abuse and emotional abuse, and it is They say it's more harmful than physical abuse, and I have to say it's traumatizing, and it stays in your body for a long time, and you have like a shock reflex, two things that aren't normal to have a shock reflex too. I have been called every ugly name in the world.

I have been told I'm garbage. I have been told things that that I've believed and thought like this is crazy, or just just just reacted in a way because someone was controlled, so controlling. So I understand how someone can really funk with you. If someone's entire life, if their goal is to fun with you, they can do it. If they're good at it. If they're good at it,

they can do it. And I've heard from women who I heard from one woman who said she has a PhD in clinical psychology and she was manipulated to the extent she didn't know which way was up. Um. I've heard from people who you know, are powerful attorneys who have been manipulated. I mean, it happens to a lot of you know, intelligent and strong women. So it happens a lot to women when they're the more power the power figure, or the moneyed spouse. Well, because the man

wants to get the control. Well right, for people who do this, it's like what they're getting out of it is taking you down, you know, So the more successful you are, or exactly the more you've accomplished, the more the more they want to destroy because that's that's the goal of it. The goal wasn't for him to take money from me, because then he would have taken it and hopped on a plane in Mexico and nobody would have bothered to go after him because who cares. But

that wasn't his goal. His goal was, it appears the only thing that makes sense, was to kind of destroy me, but in a way that like to burn all the bridges and to make it maximally hard for me to turn around and make a comeback. So I've had the same I've had been threatened I'm going to ruin your life and ruin your career, like I I've literally and and worked really hard to do that. And when one and it's hard to describe that to other people because this one person has a goal and you're if they

haven't got anybody could. It's really amazing A small gnat buzzing in your ear constantly could drive you and saying could destroy your life. Like so it's and it takes a strong constitution to overcome that and to battle that and beat that down, which I have done. But I really do. I do understand firsthand what stalking, harassment, being

emotionally abused is like. And I haven't been that vocal about it specifically for many reasons, but I really understand it um And that probably is also why this was something that attracted me to talk about with you. So net the Netflix piece, so you feel that it wasn't that it was not fairly portrayed, or that there were like little cute nuances that are manipulative to the audience, and you've had to like stand up and clarify things

because it's just frustrating. Um, it seems like yeah, and you know, and for anyone who's for anyone who's interested, I wrote a very I wrote a long, detailed like point by point um here, and I haven't even rewatched it. So I think if I once I kind of get the strength to sit down and rewatch it, I'll probably see a lot of other things. But it's not that i'm you know, I figured, of course, it's a crazy story that I didn't even understand, especially when I did

those interviews because it was kind of early on. So I figured, you know, sure, certainly they'll get some things wrong, but I didn't think it would be intentional. And I think it's very clear from the things that were um, certain editorial choices that were made that it was delivered were it. And so that's what I wrote about on my website, kind of point by point um, which ones really matter because I got the gist of the whole story.

I think you're very and so I want to hear what really really matters, um, you know, like I think that, well, the big one is the call at the end, because I think you know, you said that you understood it to be sort of something that the director did, or you understood that it was sort of there for some reason, but you didn't see it the way some other people came away with it, which seems weird. But a lot of people came away with it like like as if I was in on it whatever that means, all along

or something, because it sounded awkward. It sounded like a weird re enactment phone call. It sounded strange. It sounds like someone said call him and you guys were talking and it was weird, like that's what it was recorded for the film. So you know, it's not like I was. Yeah, it did not sound but I don't think that. I mean, maybe people are love on co finant to the Picnic, but I mean I could watch it again. It did

not sound like you guys we're in cahoots. It sounded a little bit like a either what I just said or this guy is such a sickle that he still has some sort of hold on him that you still you know, when you talked to him, you still have a weird feeling that you can't control. I don't mean that you're in love with him, but like and that like have lo van almost That's the two options that I had in my mind watching it. Not that like you guys were bandits ripping everybody off and the money

like in Switzerland somewhere. Yeah, I think a lot of

people unfortunately thought that. But um, you know, it didn't sound like I was very friendly with him, but the you know, it was like I was, I was playing a role, and it was deliberate because I was trying to get him to talk about things, and it was probably like a forty minute phone call, and so they just played this little part of it where you know, I'm deliberately and strategically, you know, having a conversation with him, knowing that I'm talking to a right that was a

little so the reason I'm kind of laughing and casual with him and sort of is like, I'm doing that deliberately, and that was, you know, I don't know if that was the beginning. I don't know. I didn't go back to the call to listen to see specifically that I get where you're coming from, because it seemed like you

were a little chucky and it was awkward. But I don't think like I would not like I would check that box of Netflix as being just like a production thing and being a little cute and editing, but not like crazy. What else did they do that was agreed to? I mean sort of, but all of it combined, So there are a lot of things before that that would allow somebody to think that I might have been in

on it. So um, you know, one part is there's a part where I start to talk about um like a it's almost like implied sexual abuse, but it cuts off where I think in the in the film, I say something about how he would make me drink wine and then like you know, do things, and then it

ends there. And I know that that. You know, somebody who was there and saw the footage said like, oh my god, that footage is so compelling, and I was sort of you know, when I first saw the film, I was shocked because I was sure that that was going to be in it, because I was told it was incredibly compelling, and part of me, like my initial reaction was like that part of me was relieved, because of course, you know, it would have been embarrassing and I would be like ugly crying on, you know, and

all of that footage where I talked more in detail about that part of what he did was left out of the film. Um, and I think that had it been included, then nobody would have been confused at the end. And so they were like things like that that had they had they been done differently, people wouldn't have been people wouldn't come away with this sort of controversial because I think all of that stuff was done to create this controversy, like did she do it? Did she not

do it? That was understand and so and also like it made it well, they don't know, they don't know. I'm playing devil's advocate. I'm not like I don't work for and it wasn't it was Chris Smith, the director. More because the movie was made and then sold to Netflix, so and and Netflix their marketing was really, um, really

really grotesque. And again it's it's like what I said before, like I feel really, I feel angry, and I feel on behalf of other people who've been psychologically abused because I feel like, you know, I sort of made fun of the whole thing. Oh, you feel like you went back into another bad relationship with them in the way it was portrayed, like you just wanted your story to be told in a certain way. Well, anyway I I I understand where you're coming from. I appreciate you, know

you coming on here. It's not easy to keep reliving, and um, I just wanted to get some perspective and I appreciate it. And UM, I really wish you the best of luck. I wish you success and freedom and a good relationship with your family about this and just to be able to move forward while you're still young and healthy and have your whole life ahead of you. Yeah, I mean, I feel do feel regard those of what happened. I do feel lucky that you know, I have a home,

I'm healthy, I have my dog. You know, lots of things are fine, and you know I'm not there, you know, whatever is happening, it's like I can handle, you know, right, And also you know, like I'm safe, I'm fine. Everything's good. You know, I have a home, I have food. It's not I'm not like in a war zone and whatnot. So I do feel grateful, and I feel grateful that I have a platform and opportunities. You know, I know

I have all these opportunities. I know that a lot of women that are devastated in these types of situations, like I don't have any of that or and they have you know, they might have children involved, which makes it just exponentially more tragic. So I feel you have a voice. I do feel lucky and optimistic. I've always been optimistic, So I like that, and I love your I want I would. I would literally pay a lot of money for those cash us right now, those raw,

spicy sweet cash shoes. You would. That's fine. Everybody everybody has their favorite, you know, people are always starting out to many different things. But yeah, so maybe you'll do that again because that is very current. That's very current. That's that's would be way more lucrative now than even then. It's very current. So well, I appreciate you, and um, I hope you have a great day and I can't wait to hear what happens next. All right, thank you

so much. Awesome, have a great day. Wow. So that was an interesting interview. I honestly, it brought up so much for me to talk to Sarma because of that I know some of the people involved. Uh So it just was something that I was shocked to find on television that I've experienced some of the things that she's gone through. So that was thought provoking that I'm a business person and that being in debt would just cripple me and it would just be the only thing I

focused on. And I wanted to talk to her, um just to get an understanding. I didn't even know what I wanted to know. I just was intrigued by this whole topic, and I didn't want to badger her, you know, because I don't do that. I don't want to have someone on here so I can just be the superior person and the authority on anything, because I'm not. I just wanted to talk to her on behalf of you and the employees. And you know, you're running a restaurant

and you leave a restaurant for nine months. You can't leave a business for nine days without like a very serious plan, literally nine days. I can't just leave my business for nine days and have the things run smoothly,

like absolute fact. So a restaurant where it's a raw restaurant back in his time where that wasn't even a current thing, and people's paychecks and payroll and running a business and taxes and crazy things like that, Like, there's no way that Jeffrey Chotteroh can run someone else's business, even if he's the investor. That was the craziest part to me. I just had to understand as a business owner, like you can't walk away from a restaurant for nine months.

It must have been a circus in there. I just wish I paid more attention back then. But anyway, she was in some sort of a trance, and I never questioned someone's emotional experience and abuse experience that, you know. I just wanted to get to the bottom of this whole crazy labyrinth and web that was woven, and um, she's got work to do. It's time to get to work. It's great that you're communicating. It's great that you're talking to survivors. It's great that you're getting the message out.

It's great that you're helping future victims. You've got to help former victims too, So let's get out there and make some money and pay off our deaths. That was interesting, and I am grateful to her for coming on, because it's not easy to come on and talk when you are a heated person who's been part of a massive scandal. So I give her credit for that.