So Gretchen Carlson is here. We met years ago. You were moderating an event and I think I spoke was that it?
Yeah, it was a couple of years ago. It was actually on Zoom because I think it was during COVID.
That was probably one of my first and really only Zoom appearances.
What yeah, why?
I first of all, it would be hard for me to even get myself on a Zoom now, meaning physically do it. I'm one of those people that's like a dinosaur in that way and that tech way. But I didn't see the future and understand how Zoom could be real. And it was so great to do appearances and your pajama Yeah exactly. So that was good for me. But what was that for?
Do you remember?
I was trying to remember when my pure person was just asking me what it was. It was for some like conference that featured people who were philanthropic.
Oh, okay, So it was about we.
Were talking about all your efforts with when you go in after hurricanes strong and yours and yours and so you know, my efforts at lift our voices. And I think it was put on by a magazine. But it's escaping me, right, Okay, what it.
Was so like so many other people that I interviewed that I know, we text back and forth, We've talked about making plans, we live near each other, Like so many other people, when I look at their bio, it's something that's never come up in speaking to them or texting with them.
Obviously. I mean, you have the.
Most colorful, assorted, impressive resume bio. I mean, if you had this as a resume and it basically just gave your hobbies and the other things you've been involved in, it would be impressive. So I was really, really I was shocked. So some of the things I read was a talented youth violinist, you were Miss Minnesota, Miss America, You went to Stamford, You were on Fox and Friends
for many many years. You also, I mean I watched the documentary, if I listened to everything I see on TV, you kind of took down a network and also started a movement. So let's start by how you are so ambitious. Even just saying that you went to Stamford alone is something that's impressive. Yeah.
Look, I think there's a through line in my life about working incredibly hard, you know, but there's also a through line that I think is inspirational to especially women who maybe drop out of the workforce or are trying to look like what their next calling is after they've
been a parent. And my life, I hope, is a testament to like, you can always pick up the pieces and start over if you have a really good base of working hard, because my life has worked in so many mysterious ways, just like what you rattled off, like. I was a really serious violinist as a child, and I thought that was going to be my career, and I studied at Juilliard in New York, and I burned
out when I was seventeen. I was like, you know what, I just like too many other things in life, and to be what I wanted to be in that area, I would have had to given up everything else. And I wasn't willing to do that because I loved school, and I was in drama, and I liked boys. I mean, you know, there were a lot of things that were distracting me from music. And so then I went to Stanford and dedicated myself to my academics. And then my my mom especially was pretty upset that I wasn't playing
the violin anymore. So I'll never forget. She called me when I was studying overseas. She's like, I phound something for you to do with your violin and I was like what, And she goes Miss America and I was like, Mom, are you ef a nuts? Like I'm from Minnesota. I'm I'm five foot three, I played classical violin, which has never won. I never watched pageants growing up. I was a tomboy. But my mom has been like this incredible driving force in my life and has really pushed me
in a good way. And so she won, and I, you know, I entered because fifty percent of your points are based on talent. Ah, so that was that's what makes Smiss America different from Miss USA or other I wow, most people don't unfortunately. Yeah. So then I, you know, I stopped out of Stanford so that I could because once I got into it, I was like, Okay, I'm going to give this one hundred and twenty five percent.
And there's so much luck involved in all of this, but so it you know, it ended up working out. I became something I never ever dreamed that I would ever be doing.
Because of Miss America because it was sort of being forward facing.
As we talked about.
Before, I never expected to be in a pageant, right right?
Oh right?
I played grew up playing football with my brothers, you know, like I it just I wasn't a girly girl, like I never watched it growing up, So then suddenly I was it. I remember the night, the night that had happened to age myself, MERV Griffin and Ava Goabor because Viva Gobor was one of my judges and she was the beard for MERV Griffin.
Right, Oh my god.
So he had hotels in Atlantic City, so they threw me this pizza party after I won up in some sweet and I remember going into the bathroom and looking at myself and being like, holy shit, Like now you did this? Now?
What? Right?
Because you don't really prepare to like be it, Like I never thought about, oh if this actually happens, Like what is it like to be miss America?
Oh that's interesting because often even with any job, you're excited to get it because it's a big get. That was me with a talk show, but I didn't really want it. I don't know that's your situation, but I thought, like, who wouldn't want this? And I'm supposed to go for this. But once I had it, it wasn't really for me. It wasn't even my personality, which I think is something people should explore new things, but you really have to
think about it. Fill aligns with your personality ego aside exactly.
I mean it's very similar. So like what it took to actually get there and win was totally different than what it was to actually be it.
Well, it was very you to get there and win and be disciplined and put in the work and like to win. You are that type of person which we're going to get into. But then you probably became a show piece.
Yeah, And like back then, I was going to drugstores and signing autographs and I'm like, what am I doing? And I would hear people this is one of the drawbacks, which I guess would be expected because people were I was looking at your exterior, but I would actually hear people in line like I didn't have ears, and I would hear people say that's miss America. Yea, no. Look.
I developed such a tough skin from it. So what I tried to do was do events where I could perform my violin a lot so that people would understand that this was you know that it was my talent that propelled me to do that's hard. I did a ton of speaking so that people knew I was intelligent, and actually the skills that experience gave me have helped
me for the rest of my life. The first week I was Miss America, I was at this huge dinner with two thousand people, and I thought I was just there to attend, and right before dessert, the guy in charge came up to me and whispered in my ear, just wanted to let you know that your keynote is in five minutes. And I said, excuse me, my keynote And I said, oh, well, how long would you like me to speak? And he said, oh, just forty five minutes.
I would shit. I went in the bathroom with cocktail napkin and like a pencil and wrote down some bullet points and learned from that point forward that I always had to have a speech in my back pocket. But it was just a week into this, so it really gave me amazing communications skills. I'm not nervous about anything after that. Right, you're twenty two years old and you're forced to be fifty Wow.
But I think that's also something that mothers or parents can think about with their kids, not leaning into looks being the first thing I hear so many times. You know, I'm a person that is totally comfortable being with no makeup and obviously and pajamas.
I post how I look like a wreck.
I look like a wreck, Like I'm not defined by what I look like at all, And it's never been what's been forward facing. And it's funny because I used to work with Paris and Nikki Hilton, worked for Kathy and du Errands and be sort of there, you know, take them to school and things like that, and they were so stunningly beautiful, yet always really shy and quiet because they really didn't they were lions, they were gorgeous.
They really didn't have to focus on personality then. But I remember, actually their aunt Kyle used to talk about that, like, that's not what they don't need to lean with. Their minds and personalities need to lead with that, and they developed that. But as women and daughters like you want to kind of be the most interesting person in the room versus just the hottest person room, So you were trying to show everyone that you were more than that. But also it sucks that you felt like you had
to explain why you were Miss America. You were kind of explaining what the whole meaning of the pageant was about.
You're right, right, like there was no category for height, but people would be like, oh, why isn't she taller? You know, I'm like, wait a minute, Like but to your point about parents, I used to get asked by mothers during that time in my life, what should I do to prepare my daughter to possibly be Miss America? And I would be like, stop worrying about her exterior.
Have her start playing an instrument or a sport or something where you learn value about yourself, and that you learn by putting time into something that you get better and that builds self esteem. So my main message has always been building your self esteem from the inside of
your soul instead of how we look. And today, in present day, that's just so much more important than when you and I were growing up, and with social media and everything else going on now, and it's one of the reasons when I was at Fox that on the International Day of the Girl in October of that year, I did my show without makeup on and I was
the first person to do that on cable. Ze oh really yeah, And my whole point was that we should be valued for what's coming out of our mouth and the interviews I was doing, and not how we look. And trust me, the higher opposite fox were really mad at me that day.
Well, that's right, I believe you because it's also but it also has just if you're a smart person, it has longevity. Looks don't have longevity brains do. I mean he saw Judge Judy say like, if you can't do it to twenty, do it at thirty, can't do it thirty, do it at forty. And you know, remember she said, thank god I never asked for equal pay with men, because she was making more than any of the mem I like that. And I also think that as we get older, when I think about age, I don't think
about vanity. I never have, but I never think about vanity. I don't think about wrinkles. I think about being healthy for my daughter. I think about that, you know, the numbers don't lie, and will I be around for her? And like that's what makes me cry, not looking older.
Well, I'm being wise for her. Like you've had so many life experiences. I've had so many life experiences, and I mean, I don't mean to fast forward to what I ended up doing seven years ago and taking down the one of the most powerful men in the world. But I have learned from my kids that those actions. As much as I feared how it would impact their lives, it actually has worked out so amazing because courage is contagious.
So how did you get on to Fox and Friends? How did you become a TV personality?
Get a news so?
I mean it's a long, long journey because there's really no set path to becoming it's one of the top journalists there, especially now with reality TV, which you know a lot about people become famous overnight and suddenly they're doing TV and I'm like, wait a minute, they don't know anything about news.
Oh and also TikTok journalists, So people reporting the news on TikTok of the microphone is if like, it's interesting, and some of.
Them were good at it. It's research, it's interesting.
No, I mean, so look, I'm not saying that they shouldn't become popular at all. But when I was starting, well, actually I was going to be a lawyer, so I took the LSATs and then my whole Miss America experience really put me in front of the camera on a daily basis, and I had had sort of an interest in the back of my brain, and so it rekindled that interest. And then I knew my LSATs were good for five years, so if the TV thing didn't work out,
I could still go to law school. And it's actually one of my big regrets in my life that I've never gotten the education because I'm such a student at home and I always say to my husband, now do you think I have time to fit in law school? He's like, what are you talking about? But I still might do it. But anyway, so I didn't go to law school and I started in my first job in Richmond, Virginia, and I knew nothing about TV. I mean it was I had no idea what I was doing at all.
And where had you been living prior to that?
I was.
I finished my degree at Stanford after I was missed right after I met So then I went to do this job and three months into it, I got a female boss, which was a godsend because she looked at me and said, you're a hard worker. You're now the political reporter. I was like, oh crap, Like what does that mean? She goes you're covering the governor every day. I'm likeugh, and you didn't know anything about politicians. Well, I didn't know anything about politics. I didn't know anything
about TV more importantly, because that was my job. TV's such a like a as you know, learning while you're doing. Like you it's a practical job in the sense that you can't really study how to do it.
Oh no, it's practic's but being a chef in the kitchen, you really have to get in the kitchen to do it. Someone can tell you and you could read it about it, didn't even hear about it, but you have to do it. But I think it's harder probably to become a quote unquote knowledgeable expert on politics and it is to learn how to be on TV.
True, So I was learning both at the same time. It was really a sink or swim situation. Yeah, and you know, I worked my full head off and built up all these contacts and so you know, it worked out. And so then after two years in TV, what happens is you can't just like be promoted by going up to the fifteenth floor. You got to move cities. So you go to a bigger market. So then I went to Cincinnati, and that's where I really learned how to
do live TV and turn things quickly. And then I went to Cleveland and that was my first reporter and anchor job. Then I got promoted to the main anchor job in Cleveland. Then I met my husband on a blind date, got married, and promptly got fired because I was part of the first prime time local newscast with two women. Okay, it was kind of a precursor to what I ended up doing, but it didn't work, and the other woman was like born and bred in Cleveland,
so I was the one to go. But it's a horrible experience because it's like I was being made fun of for being fired. But it's not like I went out to a bar and like exposed myself and got fired for cause, right, you know. It was just because it didn't work, so and I'd just gotten married. It was a really dark time in my life. I mean I would sit in my garage and smoke cigarettes and.
That story before and cry because I was just.
Like, what am I going And it's hard enough to get married. It's transition, and I was established in my career. I was in my thirties, and then it was just gone and it was sort of my identity. And so I really struggled for that first year. And then I and then, as fate would have it, I got like three job offers, all in Dallas in the same week. Really, yeah, how soon after a year?
Oh okay, because I feel that it's so funny people want to put you down for your failures and really bring them up, and you wouldn't have your successes without your failing They're honestly valuable. And I have always been a person who, in the moment when something I don't get something or it fails, that I have always had the wisdom to realize that it was all going to something was going to come from that difficult time.
So I think you don't feel it when you're living it. But yeah, and then my mom, of course, my mom would tell me every day it's just around the corner, like meaning a new job. So then, like I said, his fate would have it, I got I got three job offers. Ironically, the one I took was so my boss in Cleveland, who had really nothing to do with letting me go. She ended up going to work for NBC in Dallas, and that was one of the job offers.
Oh great.
So it was like a testament to like, I really enjoyed working with Gretchen and I'm going to bring her back. But I did have to take a bit of a step back because I went back to like anchoring the weekend news, right, So I had to build myself back up and within And by the way, I lived in Dallas for a full year without my husband. We commuted.
That must have been brutal.
It was brutal, yeah, But then he finally moved down there, and then nine months later I got a job with CBS News in New York. And on my third date with him, when we first started dating, I said to him, this sounds like something you would say. I said, if you don't want to move to New York City in your life, don't call me back. Ah, that's where I'm going, right,
you know. And like I said, I was already in my thirties, like I was established and relationships are kind of secondary, right, And he said, well, that's where I want to go too, So I was like, okay. So we were very happy to move to New York City and that was in two thousand and we were like two passing ships in the night because he's a baseball agent, so he was constantly on the road recruiting and going
to games. And I was an international correspondent for CBS News, so I always had a suitcase packed and literally I would have to be on my way to the airport in two minutes after they called me to say such and such happened, you have to go. So sometimes we'd have date night in LaGuardia. You know, it was just like, oh, I haven't seen you for a week, but you're flying to Tokyo and I'm going to you know, Istanbul, so I guess we'll meet up. And it was it was
a really exciting time in our life. We could really enjoy New York. We didn't have kids yet, and then I got Then I got promoted to the Saturday early show, which was always my dream to do a morning show because it was like a combination of hard news but
also showing your personality and having fun, right. And it was also then that I could start thinking about having kids, because you know, morning shows are like they want to show off the babies, and when you're an international correspondent, not so much.
Oh, no, one's thinking of you as a mom. And also, it sounds like you liked the structure. No, Kelly rip I talked to you about that she liked when she got Regis and Kelly that she liked the structure. She being an actress, was not the same sort of consistency and structure.
So it is n Yeah, So then we, you know, we started trying to get pregnant. I was blessed to I have problems at first, but I was blessed to have a daughter and soon after a son, and I just hit the jackpot, you know. And then when my son was three months old, Fox came calling and they were like, how would you like to do a morning show five days a week. Well, who wouldn't say yes to that?
Of course?
You know, this is years ago.
I was on that show. Oh yeah, yeah, Fox and Friends.
Yeah, and it was the number one cable news show in the country and it became more popular once this, you know, our group was assembled. But the hell started soon.
After, right, So the hell was while you were on Fox. You were on Fox and Friends for how many years? Eight?
That's a long And then I had my own show at Fox for three years. But so I got fired from Fox and Friends at the height of the height of the popularity because it was retaliation for me not acquiescing to sexual demands. Wow. And so it was made to look like I got a promotion because they gave me my own show in the afternoon, But it was actually a demotion. They slashed my pay in half. They gave me a desk from the broken closet, I mean the broken desk from the closet. I had the smallest
producing staff. I mean, it was like it was like a three year journey to try and make me invisible so that when they actually fired me, people wouldn't miss out.
Oh and that also it looked like there was a history of it was bad. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
I didn't have viewers, my ratings, you know, the whole. I mean, imagine if that time and energy. And by the way, this is not only happening at Fox News, and by the way, in every industry this is happening where women and men are subjected to sexual misconduct and then when they don't do it, they're retaliated against.
Right well, also even not just limited to that, just sanctions and punishment for being bad, Like you feel like
a child for being bad. And I recently likened it to cult like behavior because the person at the top, often a male figure, has the power and the charisma and is feeding off of all the machinations and the chessboard and the pieces that they're moving around, and has individual relationships with each person that the others don't know about, and they're promising individual things they're giving, they're taking away. And isn't that Is that in a sound familiar.
You and I are just talking the same language at this whole podcast, because that's exactly what this is all about.
And did you ever think about it in a cult man?
You said that were, well, yes, I believe Well Fox has gotten just way out of hand, different from even when I was there. Yeah, I would never ever, ever, ever, ever, ever work at Fox News in this you know, iteration of it, right, but you factor that this is now Let's see, I was there eleven years. I've been gone seven, so eighteen years ago I took that job at Fox and Friends. I didn't even know that it was like, It's not that I'm naive. I didn't even know it was a political channel.
At the time when we were growing up, news was not you didn't have anchors eye rolling about the opposite party, like it's almost juvenile. When we were growing up, news was definitely more neutral.
It wasn't so liked.
Like it's the news, you're supposed to seem somewhat impartial. And it's become like almost scripted.
No, it's totally like we only watch what we want to hear, so everything becomes siloed. And that's how we have gotten into this great divide.
Right, you can hear what you want to hear by go, like the way people call their friends to tell them what they want to hear, or hate who they want them to hate. That's what That's what the news in general is like.
Now. To me, some people still think I'm on Fox when I walk through the airport, and why is that because that's the only thing they watch. And obviously Fox News never reported on the fact that I brought down the guy who ran it, right, so they in their brains still think they see me on Fox News, which
is just crazy. So and by the way, Roger Ails is my alleged predator, is the one who created Opinion TV, and so when it started twenty five thirty years ago, it was I don't want to give him any credit, but it was a brilliant idea because it was at that time that people the internet was starting, and people were getting their news at work, right, so when they got home at night, they actually wanted to see what people thought about the news.
Yes, and also infotainment. It was you know, it wasn't just the news dry because everything's become infotainment because you know, they're going to start selling the clothes off of anchors back soon, because you have to have more ways to monetize what you're doing. And it's it is, it's it's just the nature of the beast exactly. Okay, So how do you take this on? So you feel like you're being demoted, you feel like you're being fired, how do you what's your first step to taking down a person
at a network? Like who are you talking to? What are you doing so? And how many years ago is this? Because I watched I.
Was fired seven years ago. You fired seven years and I sued two weeks later, So I was already thinking about this.
When did you sign an NDA.
Upon my resolution? After I came forward and sued, and then you know, we came to a settlement agreement and then part of that and my settlement was very progressive actually, because I got a public apology that never happens. And that's, by the way, that's all survivors ever want is because it validates their claims. I got that, which was huge, and I also gave that Fox News and Rupert Murdoch and News Corps.
Oh wow, yeah, they acknowledge a valid Oh my god.
I to apologize for the horrible treatment that I faced and that I was a reputable, you know, talented woman who should have never ever he had. When the news came out about my settlement, ironically, I was getting my nails done in pedicure because I was waiting to get a haircut on the first day of school after we dropped off our kids, and tears were just streaming down my face because the headlines that came out were they
apologized to her, They apologized to her chills survivors. Thousands of people have reached out to me since saying that's all I ever wanted, right and and then so, but what came. I was also given the ability to speak openly about issues like sexual harassment in the workplace, which I've taken full advantage of in the laws that I've passed, and the millions of people that I've helped. What I have been silenced about are all my basically my truth,
my whole story of my eleven years at Fox. I can't tell you really what happened to me.
Do you have any regrets?
I have absolutely no regrets about coming forward I have.
Now, do you have regrets about the settlement?
You?
Maybe you can't talk about.
This, But how could I have known? You've had so many twists and turns in your life too, so you'll relate to this. How could I have known that I was igniting an international movement called me Too when I came forward?
Right?
I thought I was going to be crying at home for the rest of my life because I was fired and never work as a journalist ever again. So that was the first thing. Number two. How could I have known that because of that movement and how well known my story would become, that it would inspire so many other people to come forward, and then that I'd actually
be doing advocacy work to get rid of NDAs. How would I know that in a short span of seven years, I'm actually have passed laws now that get rid of NDAs.
Can you do that on your own?
I mean, so far nobody really wants to be on board about opening up people's truths from time in the past.
I don't know.
I disagree because I don't I think because this you're.
Not about politicians who don't want to do that.
Oh No, I just want to talk about this topic because I truly feel like there we're going to get into the reality reckoning. And if you've heard about it and what you think about it, yeah, and if they're parallels, I'm sure there are. But the thing is, I do not think that a place like Bravo for example, or any of the big networks or streamers now can get away with suing someone who speaks up about improper treatment because the court of public opinion is so much more
powerful than the court of the law. I just think it would be too damaging for them. Like I think if anybody silenced you from deciding now that you made the wrong decision about that one thing, I just don't think that they would. I don't think that they would take action, and I just don't think they'd win.
But keep in mind, I was the first person to take the house down.
Well, and also you get criticized because you took money.
Well yeah, but here's the whole problem with that. The way that gets publicized. How is it good publicity? It gets publicized that and this is how we think culturally that people who sign settlement agreements get money for their silence. No, you want to know what people are getting money for. They never freaking work again. That's true because they get black buld from the industry. It's true to consider to
be a troublemaker. And that's what I'm also trying to change, not just laws, but and by the way, passing bipartisan legislation in the most hyper political time of our generation is easier than changing culture. And that's saying a lot.
No, I'm just saying it's hard to because I've watched other people in this sphere. I'm not suing anyone and I'm not asking for any anything. So it's very powerful because you can't say that I'm just going for money. Now, I'm not saying that's what you did. You experienced torture. And also someone should be whatever. Yes, it's that you can't work again, but it's okay to say I want compensation for what I experienced or that there were damages or it's damages, because.
You can that's an old school way of solving these things. So what I'm trying to do through Lift our Voices now is change the way companies think about these things. They spend millions of dollars trying to cover things up. Oh, I you know, imagine if they actually put all those resources into independent investigations that don't penalize the person who had the courage to come forward. How this should work
is like, let's say I come forward. I say this is how I'm being treated At Fox News, they do an independent investigation, not the kind walls hr or hiring a law firm for a million bucks that they've worked with for twenty years, none of that bullshit. Independent use the money that they're using to cover up shit. Do an independent investigation, find out Gretchen's telling the truth. She gets to keep her job. Why why should people who have courage to come forward be the ones that get
shunted out never work again. And by the way, because it's all secret, the perpetrator gets to keep their job because nobody knows what's happening. And this is how this vicious cycle y has gone.
I agree, I'm actually not on It's actually not that dissimilar what I'm talking about. So the reality reckoning, I'm not sure what you understand about it totally.
I've read all, I know everything you're doing.
But what happens?
I just said something I literally wasn't even about me per se. It was just like, wait a second. This is the most exploited group because these are people that are being themselves quote unquote playing themselves and they lose jobs and kids are damaged forever and have mics on them. And what's different, though, is that you could define that it was improper improper practices in the workplace. The reason that this is more cave era and more archaic is this is not a workplace. So you have to be
there on time. You are not allowed to not show up. You have rules, you have contracts, you have regulations, but they're entirely to benefit the realm. You are not an actual worker, so you don't. You get paid by a third party, so it doesn't seem like you're a real worker, meaning you can you could drink forty drinks at work here. You could be an addict that's recovering and start doing drugs and that will be celebrated in this workplace. The
person is not valued. But the similarity is that the top is literally monetizing and benefiting from this off of women's backs, and it's an environment where it's literally celebrated and designed for women to trash other women, to set to not explore people's lives, but to exploit them. It's the upside down because we don't even have the baseline of it being a workplace to then say this is improper work in the workplace.
Well, let me tell you the two laws I passed last year to get rid of NDA's for sexual misconduct and forced arbitration, which is the other way that you're silenced. People have no idea what that is, but it means that you can't go to court, you can't openly sue somebody, You have to go to this secret place. Yes, exactly, yea, which is so my two laws I passed even protect reality show workers, okay, even though because they're independent contractors
right yep. So I made sure to have that in the language of both of my bills, because, especially after COVID, there are so many gig workers, independent contractors, migrant workers. They're all covered on my So your reality fight for you. There is a lot of synergy. Oh, yeah, my laws actually protect reality show workers even though they're not real employees. So if they faced sexual misconduct during their time while they're there, they don't have to be silenced anymore.
There's also there's no one to go to. There is no hall monitor, there is no HR, there would be no one to talk to. You'd be talking to a producer who's paid to get you to drink. And doesn't mean they're pouring it down your throat. It means they're having alcohol everywhere and telling someone else get her to
play that drinking game. And there's no therapy. And I've seen people have nervous breakdo I've seen people have breakdowns and then be put on television days after, like it's actually abuse and it's emotional abuse and so and by the way, many people don't get compensated at all and forever like you didn't get.
Paid well known, and then they know even if you are well known.
Then I got paid fifty dollars from my first season, and fifteen years later, I'm on the entire buses and those are still being aired in My picture is still on the thumb print and I don't see any of that.
You don't get a residual from that zero God.
No, no one realizes that that if and now they sell They've just sold it again. They keep selling and
selling and selling, So Bravo sells it. We're gonna hack up the chicken number, giving something to hey you, Hey you, Australia, hey u UK, to Amazon, to this one, to that one, to Peacock not a thing, and the memes, the and the gifts, like we are really in the dark ages because even and it's hard to say, even someplace like Fox or CBS or CNN or ABC, there is some like there is some sort of governor, like there is a you sign a contract, you're supposed to be in
a workplace, you can say like this is not okay, you might not be heard, but there this is not even. This is literally the wild wild West, and no one's looked at it.
For thirty years.
So well, good for you for so.
But but more importantly than the details about it is like I know you felt this. What it feels like to say something first, to know that you're right, and a lot of people on the macro level to agree and know that you're right. But the peers and the
people in the mid level that are scaredy cats. They're the ones making you think that you might be fucked, that you might be like you know what I'm saying, Like my brain is upside and I'll see people on the street and I'll hear from people that are running multi billion dollar, you know, publicly traded companies in entertainment that are saying, I want to hear what you're doing. I want to be part of it, Sagan after coming
to me, I want to be part of it. Everyone knows I'm right, but at my peer level and the mid level, I'm toxic and people won't work for me, and some producers won't work with me. I don't care, because I also think that I started this at a later period in my career in life than you did. You were younger, and like you said, like earning power was cut off earlier, Like I'm I'm I want to be in my pajamas doing makeup in cottage cheese videos, you.
Know what I mean?
So like I'm not, But I definitely have risked a lot and like been on the verge of cancelation for this thing that I'm not even making money for. But I have all these people behind me that are now depending upon me and I can't open You can't open your mouth, which is what all celebrities do, and not back it up.
Right, you got to go the way.
Look, your path is very similar to what I did. You're helping people you'll never meet, right, right. I say this all the time. This will be my legacy. What I'm doing now. I'm helping millions of people who I will never ever meet in this world because we have gazillions of workers in America. Right And the work I'm doing at Lift our Voice is to get rid of the way we silence these stories. I have a lot of people who disagree with me too, mainly companies because they don't.
Want to deal with it.
They like their dirty laundry being silence. Right. But the people I'm helping it's massive. Oh yes, it's basically everyone from from minimum wage workers up to white collar jobs, because we're all subjected to these silencing mechanisms. But we have no idea what we're signing when we start a job.
That's you're also helping people that disagree with you and were too scared to stick up for it, and they knew you, and they knew that you were right, and you had people secretly texting you telling you that they don't have the courage that you do. But you're right, and they're cheering you on. You were having silent cheers, right.
Yes, yes, yes, I mean I didn't hear from a tremendous amount of people at Fox News, but the rest of the world, Yes.
Well, what about the rest of the entertainment industry too?
Oh?
Look, this is rampant, as we saw, because then the Harvey Weinstein allegations came out fifteen months after my stories. But the only reason those came out is because the reporters of the New York Times were given the green light to actually look into them more seriously because my case had come forward.
And you don't get the credit for that.
No, no, I don't. But I know what happened exactly. And I know they always say that the me too movements started in October of whatever year that was, and I'm like, well, wait a minute, because I came forward in July, fifteen months before that, which you know, Look, there's so many of us who played a part in this, But definitely it took an immense courage from me to be by myself and jump off the cliff.
That's why it's funny because you deserve the credit and you want it because you know how you felt naked, alone and afraid, like I have been standing naked me like what am I doing? Why am I doing this? What am Your head's blowing up? You don't know what you're doing? And yeah, you want the credit because it wasn't easy. When you first opened your mouth, you were shitting your pants. But you open your mouth and then once the words came out, you're like, all right, I guess we're going.
Yeah, And there was no safety net below except for all the survivors who started reaching out to me, and they actually were what buoyed me in my darkest days. I realized there were two epidemics. There was an epidemic of misconduct in the workplace, right, but there was also an epidemic of putting it under the carpet and silencing it. And that's when I rolled up my sleeves and back to how we started, with my hard work ethic that I've had my whole life. I was like, I got
to do something about this, like I have to. I have to pay tribute to all these people who came before me, who nobody has ever heard of because they were silenced.
Yeah, well you were saying, there's two problems. One the actual issue to the cover your ass exactly cover your ass is massive. I'm dealing with cover your ass. And once the thing I will say to people who want to fight for something and who could possibly have the courage, that is kind of what you're saying, once the match gets lit, it's a forest fire, they cannot stop it. Like that's I'm already there, like where I'm telling people, don't worry, we got this. And I'm not even sure how.
I just am positive, not even like blind faith. Like it's too powerful, it's too true.
And you don't even have to get politicians to agree with you, which I do passing laws. That sounds. So I've walked the halls of Congress for the last you know, six six and a half years, And to your point about knowing that you're doing the right thing, but having
no idea when you actually start it. H So for me last year being at the White House and standing up on a stage with the Vice President and President of the United States, yes, and introducing them and being the voice for all of the survivors all across America and standing there and watch him sign this first bill into law and handing me the pen.
Wow.
That that is the justification for me jumping off of that cliff without knowing what the hell was going to happen to me. Not because of Gretchen Carlson, because on that day we gave power back to millions of people who have been subjected to these kinds of things at work. And then eight months later we did it again with our NBA bill. These are the two biggest labor law changes in the last one hundred years.
This labor law is a very big issue right now. I was talking to Juju about this. They're very interested in this over the area you talk to them.
But you're right.
The first validation was getting your personal apology, and now the validation is passing laws and know the lawyers that are helping all these people. They want me to go to Washington and because you know of a union and unfair. Sometimes I'll talk to someone and say that I should have them on, but like then it has to really
pop off. Why otherwise we're just talking about fluff like I was recently, Like I've got to talk to you because we do have similarities and this is so interesting and you really did break through, and I think that that.
What did you think of the documentary?
There was a movie called Bombshell, and then there was a mini series called The Loudest Voice.
The Loudest Voice.
Yeah, okay, okay, So just to put in perspective for your listeners about how restrictive NDAs are they. I've had people come up to me and be like, oh, I saw your miniseries and I saw your movie, and I'm like, actually, those are not my projects because I can't participate in anything best on my NDA.
That's why I'm asking what you thought, though, Well.
I can't even tell you, which is my point.
Well was it good?
You can't say it was at you can't say anything. You can't say good, or I can't.
Say the portrayal was accurate. Here's what I can say, and now my brain's again in overdrive. I can say that I think it's absolutely amazing and wonderful that actresses of the caliber of Naomi Watts and Nicole Kidman took on these roles playing Gretchen Carls. I'm like, I'm just a small town kid who grow up Minnesota, right, Like, that's crazy. Okay. The fact that they thought that this
issue was important. Great point, right, The movie and the miniseries has probably helped countless numbers of people to also develop the same kind of courage worth it. Whether or not I can actually tell you that, you know, the portrayal of me is accurate or not, kind of doesn't matter if those two things are more. Oh and the third thing is Hollywood would have never made these projects seven years ago, right right? I mean, so that's the third big thing. I mean, would I love to own
my own truth? Like people are always alarmed when I give speeches or do interviews and I say I don't own my own truth. I don't own my own story. How fucked up? Is that?
Very fucked up?
But yeah, But the bigger the bigger picture is people want. It happens in divorces with custody agreements or divorce or you just signed because you said the deal, fatigue, you're exhausted, you got something, somebody broke down. Your lawyer says to you, fucking sign it, just sign it, and you don't. God doesn't give you everything, But really be careful on what you sign, because I'm sure you have some regrets and because you just didn't know you'd be on this trajectory, this deep.
I would never know, and it was just commonplace. But now it's not. We've passed laws in states now where we can be more progressive than on Capitol Hill in New Jersey, California, and Washington State, and we've now introduced it in New York. You can't use NDAs for anything anymore. It's amazing. So it's not an option if you live
and work in those states. And that is huge as we continue to move state to state to state, because what's happening is companies that are based in those states now they're kind of in a pickle because if they have employees all over globally, but they can't enforce NDAs for people who live in those three states, but they can make sure people are under NDAs everywhere else. A lot of big companies have changed their policy to take out NDAs for everyone, right.
But I don't know why.
I just have this feeling that you'll have a you'll claw us back at some point. I just have this film that Jogo that there'll be some law that's passed that includes where you used to work Fox, and that they'll have to publish if they'll they would have to public say you can talk about your story because they don't represent that anymore.
Something.
It has got to be a way that you will find. You'll find I would find a way to tell my story well, because I would make the people fight for me to tell my story. And the people say, like, unleash, show us the tapes.
Yeah, I've said publicly that Fox has gone out and said that they've cleaned up their act. If that's the case, right, then let me out in my na right, But you don't let me out, so maybe you haven't cleaned up the act. I'm you know, the more progress we make, Bethany with these laws, the more pressure there will be to eventually pass a law to make them give up all their past people that they've silenced too.
And when you're talking about Fox, you're talking about Fox News.
That's what you know.
Do you know what goes on with Fox Entertainment. I just did Snake Oil. I had a great experience, Like do.
You know, I have no idea, but I do know that my nda is with the parent company, and so they try and entangle you so that if even one of those entities decided to let you talk, you're still screwed because the other two. So my third you're not going to believe this. The third person or group in my nda is Roger Ayls, who was my alleged predator who died, right But even though he's a dead mass, his wife Uh wow, Yeah, she would have to agree. How crazy is that she'd have to agree to let
me out even though he's dead. That's that's how screwed up this country became with silencing its people. And so look, this movement this time isn't going away. So you're right. There is what we're hoping for with our work at Lift our Voices. That is that there will be this public outcry that people will say, we're not going to work at places that silence us anymore. Yeah. And in fact, this coming year, we're going to put out the first ever survey so that people will know companies that silence
them and companies that don't. That'll be a huge resource for people to understand because it's the number one question I get. But it's also going to be a subtle nudge to companies to change their policies because they're going to get a bad grade for me and I come as a credible source on this issue. So if I say this company silences their people and I'm giving them an f that might spur them on to change their policies.
And where are you saying all this? How do you where we're currently doing all the research right now? No, I mean, what's your current vehicle for communication? You're not on tell are you on television regularly? Like where are you saying all this? Whereas yea, you're here today talking about this, but where are people sharing.
Ass TV conferences? Social media? You know you and I can do something together so you can help me get the word out and vice versa. But eventually this is going to be released sometime next year. First of it's kind, nobody else is judging companies using my metrics of whether or not they silence you, and I believe it's the silver bullet to equity.
So what are some great companies?
They're very few and far between, Like, what.
Are companies that have jumped off the page of Airbnb is a great company and Airbnb is donated by the way to be strong and helped people.
So we've worked with them. So that's I'm glad you said that.
Yeah, I mean, I can't vouch for what goes on inside of airbas you're saying, from your perspective and from my perspective, they don't use forced arbitration and they don't use NDAs amazing. And now now, of course, because of my laws, no company can use forced arbitration for sexual misconduct anymore. Right, But here's the problem, Bethany. They're not going to tell the employees that they don't have to tell the employees. So let's say you signed a contract ten years ago and it has an NDA and a
forced arbitration clause, and you're being sexually harassed. You don't have to abide by the NDA or the forced arbitration anymore, but you may not know that. So me getting this word out is so important.
I agree because at what the lawyers have said is happening with with Bravo, and I feel like the word arbitration has been around, it's everywhere, and you feel like arbitration is a scam.
Here, Okay, here's what I want to hear about. Here's what it is. So arbitration was never intended to adjudicate human rights violations at work. It was it was like if I was your neighbor and you knocked over my fence with your car.
Like the people's court exactly.
Instead of clogging the court system, they came up with a process called arbitration for a three hundred dollars claim, so the judges wouldn't be bogged down with all these ridiculous cases. Okay, that was the point of arbitration. Go to an arbiter, work out your claims, pay your three
hundred bucks, goodbye. Companies got smart about forty years ago and decided to start putting forced arbitration clauses in PA contracts, so if anything bad happened, nothing would ever come out because arbitration is a secret process interest so you couldn't openly sue. So what's happened over time with NBA's and forced arbitration is that America thought we had come so far in discrimination and sexual harassment all that because nobody
was ever hearing about these cases. And so when I jumped off the cliff and then the mountain happened with all these people coming forward, the American public got pissed because they were like, wait a minute, I thought we had solved this. The reason that they didn't know about it was because it was all going to secrecy. All these cases, thousands, hundreds of thousands of them were going
to force arbitration instead of an open court. Wow, So these people, And the scariest part about it is only two percent of all arbitration cases are found for the complainant. So why bother lawyers won't even take your case if you have a forced arbitration clause? And because it's a secret process, nobody knows that there's a predator who's going to arbitration and they get to keep working. You're fired, you never work again, you don't get you don't get
any compensation. So the only reason you know about my story, Bethany, is because my lawyer, I happened to be able to have the resources to have brilliant lawyers, which not everybody can, okay, And they came up with a brilliant strategy to sue Roger Ayles personally to try to circumvent my forced arbitration clause that I had with the company.
A strategy.
It's the only way my case became public and not everyone has that opportunity or option. We arguably would not be in the me too movement if they had not thought of that, Okay. So forced arbitration is an unbelievable evil. Next year, eighty four percent of all Americans will be under it. Eighty four percent of us. That's an explosion from nineteen ninety one when only two percent of us.
Was look at your contracts exactly, look at your contracts.
And one third of all Americans sign NDAs on their first day of work. One third they think they're signing only to protect trade secrets where they work.
So that's no, that's what Bravo just said. The NDA is just to protect storylines.
But who cares?
You know what I mean? But have a lawyer look at that, because let me tell you something, these NDA clauses don't scream to you. If something bad happens to you, you won't be able to talk about it. It just looks like you're never if you work at coke, you're not going to go across the street to Pepsi and give the recipe.
No, it's but by the way, it's no, it's what Bravo's saying. They're saying.
Of course, it was just to protect story Back to the cover your ass model, which who everything leaks in the media anyway, No one cares who Ramona sleeping with. It's not a secret because someone's leaked it to the media. So that's bullshit.
I bet the NDA is broader than that. I bet it also means that anything bad that happens to anyone on set that they can't talk about it.
No, you also can't sue other people.
That's right.
You can't sue other people that you work with.
Sometimes people click on emails Bethany that they get from their company. Just from clicking on the email, they agree to forced arbitration.
That's criminal, it's insane.
They haven't even they haven't they don't even understand. Well, first of all, they didn't even get a chance to understand it because they just who doesn't click on an email from work?
The government should be giving you grants to like have a lot of people under you to do this, Like this should be a real, like, you know, not for profit business.
Well this is so. Lift our Voices is not for profit. But we are always in major fundraising mode because we're the only organization doing this work in the world. Yeah, and yes, we're trying to raise money to build out our infrastructure. I always say that I need to clone myself by like a thousand people because I have the capacity to do so much work, and I've been successful in it, but you need money to hire people.
This has been cracked open, and I'm sure we won't do everything perfectly. There'll be some eggs broken to make an omelet like you didn't do it perfectly. You can't even tell your fucking story, so that's not perfect. But you've made a lot of progress in Amail.
I've taken advantage of every possible thing that I did get out of that settle, Yeah, which was my voice on these issues. You know, I can't give you the details of what he said to me and what he did to me, and that doesn't really matter when I'm passing laws and.
It's not just about you, that's what you're saying. It's not about you.
It's not about what he said to you. That's gossip. You're talking about the whole systematic change.
I want to make sure that Britain and my children are not silenced in the next generation. Yeah, okay, And we thought we had solved all this crap in our generation and guess what we were fooling the American public because it was all going to secrecy. Yes, So now I vow to the rest of the world that we're solving it now for our kids. And actually a lot of this starts with our young boys, because we do a really good job of raising up our girls. That's
not what this is about. Men rule the world still, yes, and we need to get to those men to say at a young age, help us do this, Help lift us up. Stop silencing people in the workplace, help women. And so women can get in a room and go rah rah rah rah rah, and then go outside and feel empowered. But it doesn't matter really because at work, if we don't have men involved in this equation, we are not going to move the needle. Right. They have to help us, and one way they can help us
is take away silencing mechanisms. Also pay women fairly and also promote them.
Well in some ways too. You're not going to get them to necessarily care. You might get them to be proactive just to cover their s and that's fine too. Meaning I had someone, you know, they're not going to give a shit if.
They have daughters.
They might might, it's so abstract to them because they're so powerful. They don't think their daughters are gonna have to deal with it, you know what I'm saying. So, but I just ran into someone who I you know, I can tell you confidentially not on this podcast, that is probably the most powerful person in the entire entertainment industry. And they came to me to say, I want to hear about what you're doing, probably partially because they're scared.
I don't really give a shit.
They were like, I want you to talk to my top management, which I did, and you could tell that they were all also partially uncover their ass mode, pretending they've already been doing all these things. But there the wheels were turning, and I was like.
No, no, no, you're you. You.
You would be smart if you got on board because you have exposure, and this train's going with or without you.
That's the same phrase I use. Really, Oh my god, we have so many synergies. I always say to company CEOs. The train has left the station, so get on board with the work.
Get out of the way. You're gonna get hit or you're gonna get hit.
That's right, yeah, because there's no going backwards anymore.
No, it's happening.
And that's why you have this power because you just know because you lit the match. And I felt that, and sometimes I don't even know exactly what I'm working towards, but I know that I'm going in the right direction. So wow, okay, so all right, so tell me you're this is the last question. You're a rose and thorn of your career.
Well, the thorn is obviously my experience at Fox News, Uh therapy because of it, Like my therapy has been all of my work talking to all the other survivors and the work I do every day. I have to wake up optimistic every single day.
But you're not, like now currently traumatized from what happened.
No, no, no, no, okay now, because I'm so embedded in what I'm doing, and that's my therapy is like I know I'm making the world better.
No. And you also, once you get that validation of vindication, it does release something. It probably took a while to get it off of you, but it did.
But but I'm going to tell you that my rose is also working at Fox News right because it gave me the opportunity to transform my life into advocacy that I never ever ever thought i'd be doing. It's not like you, when you're a successful person like you and I have been, It's not like you aspire to put poster child for harassment in the workplace on your resume. No,
but I've taken full advantage. And a friend said to me after I came forward seven years ago, she said, you know, something good is going to come from this. And at the time I was like, you're full of shit, Nothing good is going to come of this. But you know what, she was right.
She was right.
And also I always say to people, you don't have to know where you're going to. Just get on the road, get in the car, plan out something, but it probably won't be what you planned. You'll hit a roadbock, you'll run out of gas. Just like get in the goddamn car, and always beforeward moving. It doesn't mean like I'm waiting for life to happen to me. That's not what it means. It means like you worked your ass off at Miss America, you worked your ass off at the small market, you
worked your ass off at Stanford. You're a work your ass off person. And that's really what I think is the key to anyone's success. Not social media, not a filter, not a cute little tagline, not a reality show. It's working your ass off.
Yeah, but you have those same characteristics I feel like we could finish each other's sentences.
Yeah, Reah, now no, and I'm a track. I was talking to Juju Chang from Nightline yesterday about this because I am very attracted and friendly with strong women, but interestingly that really have a strong voice in media, like I love Hotecopy, I always have I connect with her. I really have a good relationship with Kelly Rippo, with
Katie Couric, I connected to Gail King, like. I was thinking that a lot of the women, not a lot, like ninety nine point nine percent of the women that I respect in this industry are in similar have similar back grounds to you, and there's got to be something to it. There has to be a parallel to that work ethic and what that.
Takes completely in a world. Judge Judy to the to.
The mix, Yeah do you know her? Yeah? Oh so you'll okay, so you can.
We'recause I'm going to have a power woman's dinner party here and invite a group and I would die.
I would plots if Judge Judy comes over. I just ran into her in in our town. Oh okay, and uh, she's the most lovely person ever. And by the way you quoted her, earlier, like she for us beyond, Yeah, beyond. So she would.
She's a tough bitch, she yeah.
So she would be a great addition to the party.
I love that.
Okay, amazing, that'd be even more interesting. All right, great, so we'll talk about that. Yay, Give me a hug.