My guest today is American journalist and television news anchor Chris Cuomo. He has interviewed presidents and world leaders, reported from war zones, covered the nine to eleven terrorist attacks, and shared hundreds of powerful, eye opening stories impacting the lives of everyday Americans, and is currently at NewsNation, also traveling around the country and the world covering world news events. Chris was previously at CNN ABC's twenty twenty Good Morning America,
Fox News, and now he's hosting Cuomo at NewsNation. This is just be with Chris Cuomo. Let's get into it, all right. So, Chris, you and I know, I know you.
I remember knowing you from years back.
I don't think I was as confident as I am now to just start engaging. But back then, I think you were friends with a guy named Franny who dated my friend Michelle.
Right, Francis Grecco brand, the handsome man, we.
Called him, and you forgot that right.
First turned into this great clinical psychologist who's helping all of these vulnerable populations and has a really robust practice.
That's so funny that Michelle became a social worker. So they were actually decently matched at the time.
Yep.
And that's when I met you and you were living in the city. What had just gone to law school? Like just running around live in the city, fun life like we were.
Practicing law, practicing.
Excess, practicing excess. Where did you grow up in the city.
Hollis Queen's And then when I was a teenager, they moved me to Albany when my father became governor, and I went to a military school there.
Oh okay, right right. I was in Queen's too, I was in Forest Hills. And where did you go to school?
I went to a Catholic school, okay.
And then what about college? Law school too?
For college, I went to Yale and for law school I went to Fordham in New York City.
So you were on the path, and what was your goal? Do you always goal oriented? Because coming from a family that's so accomplished, that would be laced with a lot of pressure.
I would think to like be on some path, you.
Know, the family is very intense, but I wouldn't. I think the idea of being an elite family really kind of myths it a little bit, you know, Except for me, this was a very normal Italian Catholic Queen's family. Even when my father got into politics, which was late in life. I'm much younger than my siblings, my oldest siblings sixteen years apart, so you know, she knew a very different existence.
He was a lawyer, then he got involved in suing the city, and then these guys at the Ninth Columpus tried to get him into politics, and he started getting in and just losing and losing and losing because he didn't have any of the tools and the connections. So I had two very different lives. I like to do it as a joke. I say, thirteen years of my life Archie Bunker kind of existence. You know, I knew
a lot of people like that. And then the next ten years was Benson Executive Mansion, which was a museum that had tours, and all of a sudden I was somebody, you know, because so I knew what it was like to just be a regular kid, regular person, regular ambitions. I thought celebrities were the people who had made it onto dance Fever from my neighborhood. I still remember their names, Billy Nelly and Christina Trevellino. They were this it was
like whoa you met Denny Terrio. And then from that to a parade of the most powerful and famous people in the world because my father was such a magnet.
That's a good recipe for politics, though, because you do require a certain amount of polish and a certain amount of grit for I think, you know what I mean. You don't want to seem too precious and too privileged, but you got it not seem too rough because you're relating to so many different types of people.
You don't scare people either.
You are correct up until maybe six seven years ago, where now I'm not really sure what the formula is. There's true ession without tiders that what you would call polish. They see as elitist affect. And I think everything's kind of up in the air right now about what matters and what doesn't and having to have a side. Everything is for or against. You know, we're coming up.
It is very Yeah, it's it's a zero sum game. It's it's the craziest thing ever. It's it's it's the upside down. But I and I think that there but I think that there is a level now of people just wanting authenticity, no matter what form it is.
But they don't really know.
You can't really know what authenticity is it's hard to know because someone could just be a great actor.
People can fake it till they make it. And also you have all these haters telling you things about people that you assume that what they're talking about, and they're just making it up for advantage. I mean that's really and I've seen this with you in your start them. Also, you know that once you started to be an organic avenue of your own success, people want your success. Uh so they start to say things and create.
Narratives and all this, and you've got bred how to navigate what you choose to take on, which the downside on as a as you're as who you are.
For people who know you, you would take it on. But now you have people telling you, but Bethany, you're just going to give it energy and you're going to give it attention. Now more they're going to know. And you're like, yeah, but this is true. I didn't do that. I'm not like that. This isn't what it's about. And it's they're just going to write it up, both sides of it, and you're gonna lose and it's not worth.
It, and that totally.
Maria Striver was on here and she said she had to be of service. That was what was going on in her family like that, that she just had to be of service. And it sounds like that's what must have been going on with you, was that, like you just had to do something.
I mean, the Shrivers are an extraordinarily advanced family in terms of you know, you had Sergeant Shriver, you had Eunice Kennedy, obviously Shriver, her brothers. They started so many amazing things. I mean, they're kind of two generations deep across board, whereas we're like two jobs deep.
Yeah, but it's still the you know, I'm raising our kids is different than the way we were raised. So you were half privileged, half street now yeah, and now you have kids though that are fully privileged. And it's hard, you know, like I've said before, it's hard to get on the first class and be like, oh you have to walk like it's just not going to be the same.
And it's a very hard dance.
I'm sure it is. But of course, you know, look, all pain is personal, and people only see what they want to see, and there is a downside to the upside for kids whose parents are somebody. I mean, people see what they want to see. So there is a price that goes along with fame and stardom, and you're not allowed certain things that other people are. But of course then you have benefits. Being in the news business is a little bit of a tweener, you know what
I mean. You're not really a celebrity. You don't really have a fan base. You know, it's a little different now. It's changing because people are picking sides and they're becoming commentators and stuff. But still with my kids, you know, they had to deal with some shit that I really wish that they hadn't had to. Yeah, and one of my only regrets. I'm not a regret person. I really don't believe it's a valuable thing. There are plenty of things where I fucked up and I wish I hadn't
done that. I wish I hadn't gone that way. I mean, it happens. It happened this morning, but I never knew. See, when you're really focused on something and you know, your aperture gets really tight. So for me, when my brother was in trouble, you know what, you what were you raised about? You're all family all the time. People are gonna come after pop. They're gonna come after what's going on. They're gonna be looking for you know that people are gonna be looking at you. All you got is each other.
You're not gonna be like each other all the time, and you're not going to like each other all the time, but you're all you have.
When shafick the Kardashians, well, yes, and starting on a contemplated but you know that's how I was raised.
So when Andrew was in the suit, obviously I was gonna help him, not that I had to cover for him. This isn't a mafia caper. I didn't do things that were wrong. I didn't work the press. I didn't go after his accusers, and nobody has to believe me. I gave a long interview with the Attorney General. They did their fact finding. They found nothing different than what I'm saying, and the people who are doing that stuff for Andrew in the politics game will now testify that go after you.
He was nothing but a pest. You worked the meeting he.
Was, yeah, I'm of course I remember it, and we all were sitting home stuck. So it was the worst possible time it could happen, because you had to just live in it. It was like people that got in trouble during the pandemic, really like it was all we could pay attention to, beside slow roasting chicken. And I would say, these people didn't stand by you ultimately, so you stood by your family. I guess you made a
good choice. What if you said to you know, fuck you guys, I'm over here at CNN, and then they left you for dead, like your family's not going to leave you for dead, and you feel like you were left by a family at CNN for dead.
My family, I don't even know how to conceive of it. You know, I've never had any one of my family not be there before. I asked, right, what I mean because I'm the youngest by so much, even though like I'm old now, fifty three years old, but they see things coming and dynamically you're they're there, like you don't even ask, you know, when people say what was the decision and helping your brother, I was like kind of plum mixed by that. I was like, what process? What decision?
What do you mean I got trouble? You know? Right? No?
No, no, it was your body and you were just exactly I mean, I get it.
There's a show.
Oh, the show, the Morning Show? Did you see the Morning show? That that?
That's right?
And and what's her name? It's Reese Waisman's character, and her brother does something significantly worse. He storms the capitol and she's not telling any she's not telling on him as a journalist. And I was like, and Paul, my fiance, was like her fucking brother. So, I mean, he said it a thousand times to me, and he's, you know, a pretty honorable guy, and he was like, I get it. It's my father, my brother, Like, I get it. So it was a hard situation.
By the way, Oh what.
I said all along, I never had problems with people. I never had people until it became weaponized politically. I said at the beginning, look, I'm not going to cover my brother's allegations. It doesn't make any sense. You know, I'm by it on them, So I'm just not going to cover it, which everybody got set it on TV. But you know, look, you know there is a price. You know, you sign up for this when you're in
the media. There are rules and that doesn't mean that they're righteous rules, but there are rules.
And did you know the rules is are the handbook that you know, and that you broke some rules or that you pushed the line, like where is the line? Should you've taken a hiatus, like taken six months off?
What would you do differently?
I offered to take time off more than once. I offered to leave more than once. They didn't want me to leave. I was the number one guy, right, and you know, everybody was like stop. Everybody gets it. It's your brother and you're not doing it on TV, and you know you're helping him in a private capacity, and people get that this is a one off. There's only one of you and one of him. Isn't something we see all the time, but we get it. And you know,
they had changed their own standards. Andrew on TV more during the pandemic because they wanted him on and obviously it was going to be easier for me to get him on TV than you, right. You know what happened was the rule is what goes up comes down, and all that shine on Andrew as the love GOV and all that other bullshit. They hated it in the media because you know, they didn't want to love up my brother.
You know, well they know they loved it for a while.
When Ellen and Chelsea Handler, and I will be honest with you. I thought he was basking in it a little. I thought it was like a little month. I thought it went too far, like every morning we're having I thought it went too far. That was my honest, like as a civilian's opinion. I was just like, I believe in the wolves at the end of the bed. I believe that when you feel like you're peaking the wave is cresting, figure out what the fuck you're gonna do.
It's not trees grow high, they don't grow to the sky. So I was going to ask you, I have this wolves at the end of the bed thing, and do you have that? Because if you were flying at the top and your brother Dan gets in trouble and it doesn't, didn't it feel swollen?
Look. I used to talk to my brother on a regular basis, telling him, enjoy it. Now, what goes up comes down. You know they're gonna be coming for you. It's just a question of time. And he wasn't one of their favorites to begin with. I never contemplated it would take the shape that it did. And for your metaphor, I don't think the wolf is at the end of the bed. The wolf is in the bed most of the fight. You know, I wouldn't mind if it was
a wolf. You know, the wolf's gonna bite you, and if you do the right things, you're gonna kill it. And in this well, you can't they get to judge, you know, what's right, what's wrong, what to put in whatnot, and they're look. I think the American media is one of the strongest pillars of our democracy, and it's certainly better than anything I've seen anywhere else in the world. But that doesn't mean it's perfect. It doesn't mean that things can't come out wrong. And you know what's the
life lesson? The life lesson is forward forward. I cannot change anything. I am such a wet blanket on so much magical thinking. My wife runs a wellness business called Purist, and she's very spiritual and she's very into this, and she believes and energetic qualities of our assistance and all that stuff. And to me, it's like, there's no faith, there's no destiny, there's no luck. What happens in life is probability and chance and what you do with it,
agree and you make things happen. It's not going to happen anyway.
No, I'm not saying that.
I'm saying like, it's twenty twenty three and you're from my generation, and I get more views on my social media and make literally two and a half times the money I made at my highest payday on Housewives. Now I'm ahead of you in defecting from you know, the mainstream television sphere. But I'm saying, when you put the pieces together different way, the puzzle takes really nice shape. That's what I'm saying.
But you are different than I am. You are an actual entity and commodity that people identify with certain values, certain likes, certain interests, and certain appeal. And I'm not surprised that you have been very successful, and I actually am not even that imp I don't think that you're anywhere near where you're going to be given what you mean to so many different people in our society. I am different. I am not because I can't be as satisfying to people. I don't have a set value of
why do you watch this guy? I'm very frustrating for people, you know, even on things that like, you know, people want to be black and white, which is everything in our society right now. You know, and I get so much with digital media. Everybody threatens to kill you. You now, you know, like death threats, you know, become such a water down commodity. But it's like, stop showing the Palestinian injured. We don't know that the video is real. Okay, stops
saying that Israel has an existential threat. Everything's so binary.
Yeah, and you so first of all, you're so right about it being so black and white. Now more than ever. You can't have a conversation. You can't say I voted for that person. It's your fucking moron because I went to Harvard and you went to whatever. You're an idiot, Like you can't be like, oh, why did you vote for that part? I talk about this to Chris Wallace.
You cannot.
So people closet vote, they hide, they hide their opinions. You cannot have a different opinion. And it's so much hate. And it's supposed to be the time now where everyone's supposed to be honest and open, and it's scary. So you, as a person who has a party, you're on a side. I'm sure you're flexible in certain matters. I mean, you're of a brain and a mind, and a heart. But
how do you stick to your guns? Like in other words, Meghan Kelly's over there sticking her guns, Tucker Cross and sticking to his guns, Cannice Owens.
They have big followings and they don't on the right.
It's easy. The right is an animal. And as long as you're savaging the left and feeding people's outrage and grievance, we're addicted to grievance. But this job that she's doing now, she's made for Tucker Carlson, all these guys who have an agenda of motivating certain feelings and grievance. You don't have that in the regular world. And like I, not only do I not have a party, I think people should leave the political parties. They are absolutely the root
of our problems. You never have them. They're not in the constitution, they're not creatures of law. Even the Supreme Court is said, they're just the function of tradition. They shouldn't control our process and that's the only way we can get back. A plurality of the country says they're independent, they don't want to be in either of the parties. That's our best.
So I don't buy this about you.
I think you're very very passionate, very smart, you're handsome, you're charming, you're funny. So why so where you've landed now at news Nation? What is this for you?
Like?
What do you and where do you have to temper the chocolate? You can't fully express your opinion.
No, it's not about that. It's that it's just not satisfying. Like if you take an issue, you know, you got to have like this determined side where everybody who doesn't believe what you believe is toxic and that's what sells. That's what people are looking for, this outrage machine. Now will it stay like this? Yeah? Kind of It's always
been this way. We just have more magnification of minority voices and opinions through social media than we used to have, and we're gonna have to balance that out with reach versus relevancy and value. You know, the marketplace will find its way. But you know, I'm not saying that I don't know how to communicate. It's that left is mad with me right now. I barely get Democrats on my show.
Why well, either they're pissed and Andrew, or they're pissed at me by extension, or they're pissed because I have too many people who are on the right on and I don't believe. And I keep saying that the parties suck, and they're like, yeah, okay, the parties are imperfect, but this is our system and the right is so much worse. Chris, that you're creating a false equivalency.
Why don't you just get a little unhinged like this, Like just be not so polished, not so perfect, not so organized. It just be a little off the fucking grid, like be a little I've seen, but it's always a little more newsy, more like the traditional newsy, more than this.
Well, I would like to see you fully on.
I'm not, first of all, I'm not an unhinted person. It doesn't work for me, you know. I people think they're giving me a compliment. They say, man, Bethany, even though this isn't your personality, Bethany was I'm coming at you man, And you just was sitting there looking you almost had like a little bit of a smile on your face. How do you do that? It's very simple. One.
When you've been doing this as long as I have, you understand that someone says the moment that I say oh, Bethany, I don't agree with you about which way we're going to take this product. You know you're an idiot. I'm an idiot as soon as you start talking about you personally, obviously, I don't have the ammunition on the argument anymore. Right,
that's one. As a guy who has done nothing but study self defense and different fighting techniques for so many years, I don't take talk as the kind of provocation that most people do. When someone starts insulting me. In my mindset, how I am as a person, like my personality is as long as we're talking, there's no there's no threat here. You say whatever you want to say about me. I return the fire. But it's not because I'm some nice guy.
It's that it's that you know, well, if we're going to have a real problem, then you're not gonna talk. You're gonna try to hurt me. Not you as a woman, because no, no, no, I know. But when a guy is saying mean things, say your mean things. We're still talking. Keep talking. I think it makes you look bad, But say whatever you want to say. Now, threaten my kids, put your hand on me. We have a very situation and I'm in the I'm in the hurt business. Once
we do that, and that makes you very uncivilized. And I'm going to get in trouble. And I've gotten in trouble in the past, and I get it. But I'm not asking for people's vote, and I'm not a leader. But it's very easy easy for me to say civilized people are coming on to attack a position that I don't even hold.
Well, do you sometimes enjoy? I mean, first of all, you're unflappable, is what you're describing. But when when someone says to me, I was just talking about this yesterday, someone on TikTok, it could be anything or Instagram or somewhere.
Oh she wow, she.
Looks old, I'm like, I am old, Like I don't mind an insult, like I kind of absorb it and turn it into I'll turn chicken shit into chicken salad every day. I will, and I'll slap back, not in a way where I'm fighting with someone in like Twitter or something, but where I'll just disarm I beg someone who cares. They'll say, I, like, I think you care because you're here, Like you could go somewhere else, Like I kind of I don't want to say I enjoy it, but it means there's a pulse out there, if that
makes any sense. Like I'm like, okay, I'm getting you. You're alive out there, all right. We're not agreeing with everything I say, but okay.
You're not a you know, you're not someone who's gonna let somebody get away with things either. But there is a comfort when someone's saying you don't look good. You do look good, and you know you have confidence in that. So it's one thing. What happens to me is it's not you don't look good. It's more that I am being placed as part of a problem in society, anti American, anti this, anti that, part of this deep state, all
this shit that is very hard to dispel. I mean, the prayer with this place, with News Nation is that they really seem to this point to be on the same page with Listen, I'm talking to regular people in a regular way. You want to talk words and concepts and history whatever. It's all I am as a student of this. I study everything all the time. This is my hobby, it's my vocation and my advocation. But that's not what I do on the show.
Are you defined more by being pigeonholed into Democratic principles, or by your brothers by protecting your brother, covering for your brother.
What's defining you?
What do people in your community think, what a former colleagues think. You see somebody in the city at a restaurant, what do people think.
My community where we live out in East Hampton, which is actually a pretty trumpy place, has been so good to me when they when I was really in the barrel and the paparazzi were coming after me and everybody's they were very protective, even guys who don't like you know, once they know me, they understand that I don't have politics. I really don't. I mean people, do I back Democrats absolutely if they name Cuomo, you know what I mean. If my brother's running for he's the guy I think
you should vote for him. Why my brother, that's why, and I love him and I believe he's the best. But other Democrats. No, the party doesn't resemble anything like what my father's party was. And do I vote Democrat? Yeah, occasionally. I'm not registered this one unless Andrew's running, you know.
And then people more mad at you for being for thinking that you're a Democrat or for thinking that you're a Cuomo.
Anti Trump, deep state, mainstream media whatever that means, Andrew is like at the bottom except for the media. For the media all.
About that because they need a reason, they need to put it put, They need to skate something to put.
On the rule and what The only thing that bothers me about it is and again, because you know, you can't fix things. You can only fix forward. You can't fix in the past. Time doesn't work like that. But the idea one. It pisses me off that all these people in the media tell me what happened with me and my job was wrong. Oh now you want to say that, But that bothers me a little bit, but I get it. That's how people become conciliatory. The other thing that bothers me is so you don't think that
people in the media talk to and advised politicians. That's that's what you want people to believe that you, oh my god, never called up or had a relationship with a politician where you gave them advice. Wo when're in trouble, You've never said to a politician, oh man, this is playing bad. You better watch. You don't think there are reporters who came.
It's funny.
It's the one what comes to mind to me is like a Hannity or O'Reilly, Like that's who I think of, like calling up.
They're not journalists. I'm talking about the same guys and women who have the high ground okay, you know, like they're not on the phone if they can get access. And and the politicians I grew up in this be like I watched this happen with and where they would talk to legendary journalists Residentacalarry Jack Newfield, I mean like the real guys and they'd marry him a rory and where they'd be like, so why don't you like this position?
What's your problem with that? And they'd be like, well, here's a problem with this is the crime rate is up here and the people sixty two percent said they want the death penalty, and you keep yelling about no death penalty means going to beat you. Is that journalism?
Wow?
Or other advice about his position on the death penalty.
Yeah, I didn't think about how you grew up and like, you know, that's so crazy. That's I didn't think about what you don't do that.
Kind of thing. That's the monstrably false. So there's a little bit of a hypocrisy. But look, I really I talk about it because it's over And.
Are you writing a book on this whole?
Like you need to write a book called not politically Speaking, because you're talking about a lot about it not being political. I think you should be like, are you writing a book on this anymore?
When you look at what's happening and what people are fighting about at the highest levels, the highest levels. We just had a US senator decide he's not going to run and he can't even decide if he wants to run for president. Why because you don't know where the safe space is. And you know, mister Rogers taught us when we were growing up, look for the helpful people. Who are fucking helpful people. Everybody's gonna hurt, seems these days.
One minute that your friend, the next minute they're coming after you. And I get it. And that's why I believe that the remedy is regularity. Just think about the rest of your life. Because I just came to my parent teacher conferences, Christina stayed behind. That's real life. Sitting down. Wait what a minute, wait what he didn't turn in?
What I saw this right, you're saying, we spent all this time obsessing over things that don't come into play in our lives most of the time.
Yeah what what? Now?
What does your wife think about all this? You guys must have been through a roller coaster. You definitely have been through a crazy time. Your wife, dynamic your family? Does your brother feel guilty?
Like?
What's the dynamics swirling with everybody? There's gotta be some resentment or some odjita with everybody?
There was, you know, twenty plus years of marriage, three kids, thirteen to twenty. There's plenty of them in and odgy to go around at. Look, there is no question. And I am trying, you know, to find ways to make this something other than just what it is. But this is natural. They got an unnatural life and I made it worse. Why because I dragged them into something that I wasn't even aware. I did not see this storm coming. I knew Andrew had trouble as soon as there was a
handful of allegations in the Democratic Party. Allegations are enough. I knew he had trouble.
I was telling you're saying you dragged your family, But does he feel he dragged you? And your family.
Okay, Andrew feels tremendous skill little brother. All he wants is good things for me. He taught me how to ride a bike. He taught me how to play football. You know, my father was taking care of you guys. You know, he was in service pretty much my whole life, and he was obsessed with that. As you know, first generation born in this country. He believed that he owed it to America to do whatever he could, especially in
New York. Andrew taught me everything. All of my interests in hobbies I learned from my brother.
Wow.
Oh, I take care of old cars. Andrew's a master mechanic. I fish. I'm much better at it than Andrew, but I whatever I do. All the fighting, Andrew was an amazing fighter. He's a great boxer. I don't box, but I mean, you know, so the idea that i'd be there for him, he'd be there for me, I've never considered any other option. Doesn't mean we get along all the time. Doesn't mean that he doesn't want to crack my head like an egg every once in a while.
But you know he does. He feel guilty about it. Sure, one hundred levels. He had the mandate of the people of New York to do a job that he had to leave because of this, and it haunts him, and it haunts him that everybody had to deal with it, including my wife and kids and his kids, young empowered women. This was tough, and you know, you can't pretend it to happen. You can't try to make it something that it wasn't. You've got to see it for what it was.
And the most important part of what it was is in the past. Is there a lesson for next time? Not really, because when's the next time that my person and I'm getting to this catacausm where I got to make a decision about whether or not to watch and burn or what you know. So that's not so helpful,
that's not so instructive. I do take a lot of solace, as most of us should, if we're if we work on ourselves, if we have that insecurity to drive us through that, which I certainly do where I'm like, oh shit, I shouldn't do that again. You know. Let me try this a different way. Let me try to work on this. Let me try to work on this in therapy. Let me try to work on this. Uh with a life coach.
Working on yourself right, you stick stick of like workshopping the spirituality and bs of it. You just want to like this is now, what are we doing?
The spirituality is not so much my thing. Philosophy is my thing. I'm fine with spirituality. Just let me see how you use it, don't put it on me. I don't want conversations about why you're so right about what you believe. So I work on myself all the time. Why we'll plenty to do, That's why. And I am racked with uh, negative emotions about the whole situation. I mean, I lost a tremendous amount.
I'm sorry, you're raw.
Not raw. I'm just realistic, you know. And I'm flawed and I don't believe in fair. My therapist says it's the only four letter word. Look. Ultimately, everybody figures out what their strengths are. I have two real strengths. Okay, one's personal, one's professional. My personal strength is I have an amazing ability, a gift to draw better people than I am to me, my friends and the people in
my life. Like last night, I just did a talk with Chuck d from public enemies and friends of mine for a long time, I have all these mentors in my life who are like just a little ahead of me in life, some of them behind. On the on the fight side, a lot of the guys are younger, even though my main coach is in the sixties, and they're better than me at whatever it is that connects us.
They're better and they be better. They're better fathers, they're better husbands, they're better fighters, they're you know, they're they're better at these things. And professionally, my ability is to interpret. I don't come up with the idea. I don't come up with the position. I have an ability, I think through training, disposition, and experience where I can take things that you say about whatever it is that you're relevant on in that moment and then say to people who
don't know what the way you do. Look, here's what she meant, okay, or here's why this matters and this is not what you're being told, or you need to listen to this part more.
That's what I'm able to do, crystallizing it.
And I think that there is a need for that right now, not Herey Biden shouldn't be president. There's plenty of people to do that, plenty of people. For me, it's what do you need? What do you need? What matters to you? You know, the reason you have shitty candidates is because you have a shitty process that one squeezes people in these very narrow lanes to get to power, and nobody wants to get it best and he doesn't want to run for office and have people dig into it.
That's an interesting concept too. Right when we were kids, it was like you could be president in it. I actually think because of all the relief work, everyone's always like run for president. I'm like, what, I don't even want to like work with the government on relief work. I don't want to have to answer to anybody and be part of any of that.
That sounds like a disaster. I can't imagine wanting that job.
Eve. It's the salvation too, because we've become too top heavy and in our local Community's another thing that regular people know. Okay, So like Christina, because you know, Christina is the virtue one, Like you know, I hate to do stereotypes, but we have them for a reason, right, Christina is the melding of this and this, you know what I mean, and all this, you know, everything's.
A nail to me and I was listening.
He did heart and head and then she's he's I'm sorry, she's the heart and the head and he's the fist.
Yeah, and you know, intellectual, I know a lot, but in terms of behavior, dynamics and relationships, I'm the warrior, I'm the protector.
And what does that make you? Are you emotionally intelligent?
I am. I work on it all the time. I have some gifts. I was raised by women. I have three, six older than me, and of course my mother who's still with us, And I lived with my grandparents for years, and my grandfather was senile, so my grandmother was really you know. I used to have to follow my grandfather around. He like walk away and beautiful men grosser and so I had a lot of alpha women strong and that wasn't a thing then. It was just like the way you were supposed to be.
Yeah.
I want to talk about Christina though, like, what how do you have a twenty year marriage? I don't know if it's thriving. I know it's surviving because I mean, you got through what you got through and you're together. But I've only the longest relationship I've ever been in is five years. I know, that I say that like embarrassed, you know, like I like, like, I've never said that to anybody before out loud, because I don't, you know, want people to realize it's true.
But it's true.
And so I always am. I always struggle between the fairy tale and the reality and the struggle and the thriving and the surviving and a relationship when I look at other people's relationships, because I know people have problems and struggle and I kind of want to hear about your relationship a little bit.
Any any adult knows that one a relationship is work more than it is anything else. You can embody it in an emotional principle like love, but what what is? What is love? Love? In this context is somebody else's needs and wants matter as much to you as your own. It's too easy today. I'd take a bullet for you. Yeah, yeah, I know. Would you give me the last an espresso pod? Yes? So that you know it's about the context and people pose, okay,
they want you to think good things about them. You wander about your marriage about this, and you know, when you're examined as much as we are, you wind up a lot of letting a lot of that shit go. You know, well, why are you still married? Well, because that's the sum total of our existence. What does that mean? Well, that's what we see in our families. You know, there have been some marriages that haven't worked. It's nothing wrong
with that. Marriages isn't a natural condition. This is construct that was developed for good and bad reasons over different cultural aeriots. But the kids matter more, you know, and they need us, and there's that, Uh, it's hard. There's an acceptance of hard much more on her part. It is work and the upside of.
Well, then she has to accept that it's going to be hard because you were saying that it's hard to be in a relationship with you or your life that you chose for you.
To harder to be in a relationship with me than it is to be in a relationship with her.
That's no, that's exactly my situation. I'm you.
Yeah, shocking, but yeah, i'm you.
You are not me. Do you understand, Like.
No, in the dynamic, I'm you, it's not at dragon, you know, I'm like having a believe in Dragon. I'm like i am I'm like having a pet porcupine. Okay, because anything that's I don't want anyone to ever like tell me what to do, put me in like I has to. I just you could say to me, we're having turkey for lunch, and I'm like why, Like, I just don't. I like to be free as a person. Like so it's funny. I'm very prickly about just nothing. I only sweat small stuff. The big stuff is no problem.
I don't care about any of the big stuff. It's the tiny stuff that really I'm problematic about.
Relationships. It's also about like, you know, look, there is no one size fits all. I love reading books on relationships because it's so it's such an exaggerated idea that there's something that works for everybody. It's like that, and every situation is different. And well, this marriage works because they don't live in the same state. And this marriage works because this is all the people in there chosen ethnicity or this is all they do is this. And
this works because there's a codependency, you know. And this works because they just are both into the same thing. They're obsessed. Yeah.
Now, yeah, there's a guy that we buy what we bought watches from before, this guy and you know, he's he's a watch he sells watches, so he's like half an asshole. But I'll say, gee, I'll say, I'm not gonna say his name. He's an asshole. And Paul said to me, yeah, but he's our asshole. So like sometimes I look upon, I'm like, you're an asshole, but but he's my asshole.
So it's sort of like that, you know what I mean, accommendation.
Look, here's the problem with the dynamic, and this is the struggle, right, is that it's inherently selfish. Love is selfish. I tell my daughters all the time, be selfish and love whatever you want. You don't do anything for some guy you're not pretty because he says you're pretty, all right, you want to have him by the face and kiss him. You know, the whole shotgun and a shovel thing. I got over that, you know, as long as it's on you, and this is what you want, the knock yourself out
your choice? Fine, but but what do we see? We see that very often people are making choices because they think those are the right choices to make. And this is an inherently selfish dynamic for us. You and I start fooling around the moment I start doing something that doesn't work for you. Gone. It could be a little I told this cat, he texts me this way one more time. He's a ghost. I do it again. Damn. When you're married, people no longer have that cautionary idea
about best behavior. It's like, especially once you have kids together, it's like, where are you going? You know what I mean, You're gonna and those things start to not matter anymore. It's like, does this all my friends call me mo? There's most still texture like that be Yeah, I don't give a shit anymore. You know what I care about is whether or not the dog throw up last night,
you know what I mean. It's like, so you know, there's a French expression that a guy used at my wedding, which I thought was like the worst thing he could have ever said, But I've learned to appreciate it over the years. He said in French it's called les petite more. I don't speak French little deaths, And he said that love is a series of tiny deaths. And I was like, in my wedding day, but it is the self has
to die. Now. I know there's a million psychologists out there who going to tell me in therapists that I'm bullshit and you got to live within your own truth and you must be growing. Hasn't been my experience, my experiences, get over yourself. All right, Yeah she did that. Yeah he did that. Yeah that was fucked up? Now what right? You know? Normanlear gave me great life advice when I was in the barrel. There are only two questions you have to ask. He was listening to me for like
ten minutes. Talk to somebody, and he said, uh, so what now what?
Oh there's a book. Yeah that's yeah, so what now?
So hard to practice, but it's like, okay, yeah, b did that. That's what happened, and it hurt. Now what?
Doctor Amador wrote a book called I'm right, You're wrong?
Now what?
I love it. It's just like the same thing now what It's good?
Yeah?
So what about intimacy though? How do you how important is intimacy? How does it sustain? After twenty years? And I'm not singling you out of asked a lot of people about this, like what you know, how important is it?
It's all about needs and wants. It's all about needs and wants, and everybody's different.
Paul says, needs and wants to and.
Then age matters. Okay, women fifty five, although we are there's always like some new understanding. My wife's not here. I'm saying, like, you get into that range where bodies are changing, you know what what what we crave starts to change? Right the guys, I was like, oh, you know, so you know there are all these different factors that go into it. But again it's not one size fits all. You can have where they fuck like rabbits, you know, I have they been married forever, they have like I
always having sex. I've never and I thought they were like kidding me, they're making it up, but then I'm making up. Then I have other ones that like, you know, they don't even know what they look like naked anymore. You know, it's right there is you don't know, and I don't can't tell you that this couple it doesn't mean as much to me as this couple, or that I don't appreciate what they're about as much, or that they don't seem to love each other as much. It's
just different. Everybody's got different and we love to judge them. We love to judge them, and we love when relationships fail, you know, like this Jada Pinkett Smith's ship. Oh my god, I what I don't understand? And this is I'm a journalist, I'm on cable TV. Both things. I have zero interest in people's love lives, even though that's not what marriage is. But unless it's instructive of something that applies almost.
Universally, right, like this takeaway for you?
Right?
Why is everybody lifting the veil now in a different like Megan and Harry veil lifted.
Let's show it.
All Victoria Beckham and David Beckham like they're very wealthy, successful, way lift the veil?
He cheated?
This happened like Will Smith like a list actor, like lifting the veil? Why is everybody want like everybody know everything? You don't want to want to know everything? To rip the example.
Culture dominates, especially with celebrities. Everybody you just picked is a celebrity, and people who crave attention and following. We are addicted to grievance. We went through a phase where you can lift the veil as long as it was a funk of you going to rehab, you know, and you getting on that thing. That was That phase is over now it's just who's more fucked up, what's the next fucked up thing?
But it's not good for business because I think they're doing it for followers, and like Victoria Beckham is selling clothes the way that Kim does online, and maybe it's got to be only about money. But like I don't think it's good for Will's business. Maybe it's good for hers. It's not good for business at all.
Is it?
My ep Dusty, who have known for thirty years, and my our oldest who's a twenty year old girl, and even my wife will all tell me the same thing. I look at Kardashian and I say, I remember when that video came out. I remember how that video was about ray J being endowed in a way that you do not normally see like Lee that's right side act was who he was having sex with? Who? And I remember this. I remember that this point of fast, I didn't know who she was. Nobody did, and it was
is she like sleeping through this right now? With this you know this guy, the prowess that this guy was bringing there in the situation, How is she sleeping through this? How is she even barely aware? And it was almost like a joke, and then it blew up and I'll say, look, you gotta respect the success. I respect success, but I also believe. So what they'll correct me on is, no, that's all you see. You got stuck there that you
see just that we don't see that. We see the next eight moves that made her who we're interested in watching. Then you only remember that because you're an old man and you're not into any of the stuff about them, because you don't watch any reality TV.
Got it?
You understand how she plays within the sisters dynamic and the male and the babies and the landing.
And the products and the chess. There's a lot of chess moves there.
Understand all of that.
You and like you, she comes from a powerful matriarch.
You come from a powerful patriarch, like she's like the mom is very very you know, the Joseph Kennedy of the situation.
So I used to be very like and I'm sure I've said publicly, I was like, you know, when you have the Kardashians, like, you know, your billionaires and the people everyone's looking up to, you know, you got to you gotta take a you got to stop and think. Well, now that I have stopped and thought, because one of the gifts, although I don't recommend it. Is when you get shit canned and you're sitting on your ass and your toxic and you got a year or so, do you you got a lot of choices about how to
spend that time. And once I really went in on myself about I got to figure some shit out. I got to figure out how to get out of this hole and not get a job. I knew i'd get a job. I'm good at what I do, but I I you know, I could practice law, I could do all kinds of stuff. But the it was knowing I got to figure out, like what matters to me? Because this was so unsettling that I couldn't see myself ever going back into the media. When it happened, I was like,
now it's just too fucked up. Oh yeah, And I was like, what am I about? What do I care about? Why do I care about it? Why do I why? Why are these things fucked up about me? And what have I not been listening to? And I was talking to my therapist and he's like, all right, good, So if you're willing, if you're ready to listen, I'll start telling you the same things I've been telling you for the last ten years and whether it was you know what was the lesson that's worth it because you know,
my story itself gets kind of tedious? Is The word forward is obviously directional, right, but it's also suggestive of an intentionality. If you can inculcate who concepts into your life on a daily basis, this is straight up pragmatism. Okay, this requires no belief in anything bigger than yourself and your own reasoned choice. And they both start with the same three letters, but for different reasons, forgive and forward. If you can live those two ideas, you will absolutely
no matter what you're dealing with. You've got terminal illness, you've got financial problems that are almost irreconcilable. You've got some asshole in your life that you don't know how to get rid of without a cost, and you a lot of money. You've got kids that you're worried about or they're worried about you. You have addiction, whatever it is, those mechanisms of forgiving yourself, because that's why we don't get better. The reason that I don't get better at
things is because I don't believe I deserve to. I make the same fucking mistakes and poor choices in relationships. Whatever. The efficient buddy could be, my wife could be somebody. Just why because I'll put myself into the same situations because I don't believe I deserve anything better. I haven't really processed why I would do this and what I'm getting out of it or not getting out of it, and what I'm giving up. I don't do that because I'm a self loather. But that's a cheap it's easy.
You self loather. Oh you know I'm a self loather, So I'm i'm.
Now because then you limit yourself by categorizing yourself with that. It pushes you down, it limits you.
Who structure Now, that's nature nurture. Also, I was raped self loath. Uh. And my brother is a self loather. Uh. He's also a genius, so he has like an offset of intellectualism with it. But it's I see it in myself like you and I will be I don't working out whatever, it's something something simple, and you'll be like, you know, you'll do whatever you do, and I'll be like, look at you feeling good about that. That ain't shit. I can do twice what you just did, and you're like, yeah,
but what I did was good for me. No, I'm the standard. If you're not better than me, you suck. Now what is that? That's not healthy? Because why am I putting myself in a position of such low esteem? Why would you believe that whatever you are is the absolute minimum standard of anything? Why would you do that to yourself? Well, you know life is so hard, failure and setbacks and disappointment is so guaranteed. Why would you
do anything to short yourself on upside? Because I can't forgive, and I struggle with.
I am better with all I think, then I think.
I spoke to Rob Low about when he was twenty six what happened, And it wasn't even he said his low wasn't even w and during at the convention he said it was like doing the Academy Awards and doing the snow white bit. But anyway, he said, like he was intentionally crashing himself into a brick wall. He needed to like, so this could be your moment of your life, your brick wall that you some people. Nobody gets out without paying the bill, so.
You're riding high. You're good.
Look, nobody gets out without paying the bill, so this you're paying the bill.
But here's the thing. Look, I believe that the rent is do every day and the problems are the same, The challenges are the same. The manifestations change, but the rules remain the same. Forgiveness is the only way.
So who do you forgive? And how do you move forward? You're moving forward, You're forgiving. Who do you have to forgive?
Do you forgive? CNN? Do you watch it?
You forgive Jeffice, Jeff Zucker Do you still hold anger?
Like?
What's what's the arc