We have Evan Mark Katz, a dating coach, dating advisor, dating expert, to help you find the love of your life.
Evan, welcome, beth.
Any, thank you so much for having me.
Of course, so you are a matchmaker. What percentage of matchmakers are men?
I am not a matchmaker. I'm a dating coach for women.
Oh, you are a dating coach.
That is a major distinction. Matchmakers make introductions. Dating coaches tell women how to make better decisions, which in my opinion, is more powerful.
And you don't make introductions.
I do not make introductions.
Because some matchmakers also coach do get dating coaching. Also, That's why I thought like it's like, maybe you do more dating coach, but you also matchmakes so interesting.
I'm the og dating coach made up this job twenty years ago, and now everybody's a dating coach.
So you don't look like old enough that you could have made this up twenty years ago.
We're close to peers on fifty two.
Grew up in Long Island, member of the tribe where Exotic Delmore Amy Fisher.
Oh amazing.
Okay, wait a second, Okay, So you are a dating coach and you've been doing this for twenty years.
Are you married?
I have been married for sixteen. The first five years of this I was learning from coaching other people what my own hypocrisies were.
So I had a book called, I Suck at Dating, so you don't have to So that was you.
I've got a couple of books that are like that.
Okay, you might still suck at dating. You probably haven't done it that much you've been coaching it.
I have a unique ability to be around women and help them see in their blind spots. And if I were let loose on society, I think I'd lapsed back into the old thing that being good at dating. I'm much happier married, though I can't advocate for a happy marriage enough.
So have you been listening to the advice that the matchmakers have been giving on to just be dating?
Yeah? I mean I absolutely have great respect for matchmakers. I think they have a really hard job. I think we have similar clients. That people come to me are the ones who say, Okay, I'm the common denominator. I mean, it's basically helping women get out of their own way. I think if you ask most women the biggest problem, they're going to say, where are all the quality men and why am I attracted to the wrong men. I help women fix their broken man picker.
Oh, I'm gonna love this from.
The very beginning right confidence and self awareness to the end. So it's a much more concierge handholding process. I make sure women will never get into another bad relationship again.
I call it like getting in the wrong cart. I've gotten in the wrong car. It looks good, the sign's going to one location. I know I really want to go to the other, but the car in the moment looks good. Then you're in the car, then you're driving. You were probably making a decision out of fear and not truth, which I think is a big thing. People aren't willing to really sit back and hold and wait.
I love your metaphor, and I use something similar.
Tell me I talk about shopping in the wrong aisle of the grocery store. Most people like steak and ice cream. But steak and ice cream is going to kill you eventually, and so then you're like, hey, you got to get off that steak and ice cream diet. The fixer upper, broken narcissistic workaholic man who cheats on you, we got to break you up with the steak and the ice cream. Oh, so you're telling me I just have to have rice
cakes and kale. You're telling me to settle. No, there's this lane of chicken and vegetables where the most happy, healthy people live. And if women could discover the ten percent of men who are worth their while, there's a lot of love to be had out there. But most people vacillate between. This guy bores me. I'm so intoxicated by this guy, but he's so bad for me.
So I'm going to challenge that because I feel I also consider myself. I consider myself an almost expert level data like I have a lot of institutional knowledge, and so I think saying that means like someone's going to have to really make a lot of sacrifices because now they're going to have to eat the grilled chicken and won't get the delicious fatty steak.
When I think that, I think sometimes people could have.
The steak, but because right away the steak seems so bad for them, they're not willing to be patient enough and work the situation to see if there's an energy match, Like meaning I have met people that are the steak and wanted immediately them to turn into the chicken, but turn into the healthy chicken when sometimes if you like show who you really are, you're patient, you present your best self. To Barbie's point, her opinion is that you have to be your best self before dating the person
you'd want to date. And then I think that there are many roads to rome. I have been with many steaks that have turned into tofu because they hadn't met the right person. They need the right energy match, they need to be intellectually challenged. So I think there's a world in between both where it's like the leaner steak and the fattier chicken.
There's no coach matchmaker in the world who would be successful. If their solution you see all the happy couples on someone's website. If their solution is take your medicine and deal with it right. The presumption is that anybody who's coming for dating a relationship advice is lost and when they exit, they exit in a happy relationship on their terms. And so I would agree with your point that timing
has a lot to do with things. I think that people should really pay attention in that first month of dating to whether the timing is wrong. Talk about getting in the wrong car, getting on the wrong bus and heading to Chicago when you meant to go to Boston. There's a lot of guys who are just huge red flags and people ignore them. Recently separated, recently divorced, don't know what I'm looking for.
You're too good for me. I'm intimidated by you.
Let's start from the very beginning. Okay, so you only coach women.
The first five years of this. I coach men. Men need help, they don't ask for it. So that's when anybody is like, why don't you coach men? Men need so much help. Men really don't ask for support, and so that's why I help women.
Okay, so you help women. So there's a woman, and my opinion is that if they're coming to you, it's what you've just said. They've been their picker is off, or they feel that they've been in the wrong relationships, or they went through a breakup. They're afraid, they're older. How am I going to meet someone? There's a lot
of fear that comes in. I think fear is a critical thing, right, So would you say that the first step is like to work on yourself and become a whole person like you have to become the fully put together piece of furniture, not the ikea that has screws missing and is because you could meet the right guy and mess it up. So you're coming in as a
fully formed individual meeting. Are you doing the therapy? Are you talking to you to like assess the situation, like what's the step to get because I do think also that people are coming and look for something. Sometimes as a reaction to the last relationship is a big mistake.
The pendulum.
You just want you know you now you want the warm blanket because you had the player cheater.
You don't have to go the whole opposite direction.
Hey, Bethany, I know you don't need validation. I want to give you some validation today. Okay, you're instinctively really smart. The thing you're talking about, I call it the over correction. Wow, if you had a guy with no money, I'm looking for money. If you had no chemistry, I'm looking for chemistry. And we go way, way, way to the other end of the spectrum. My mom did this the guy after my dad passed away. Really nice, gentle guy, no attraction,
no respect for him. Didn't make her laugh, But boy, he was nice and that lasted for like two years.
By the way, you go for the warm blanket if you've been in a toxic abusive situation, but you may but you maybe you may not be warm blanket. Then you're confused, like, wait, but I wanted safety. I wanted security, but you weren't. Like at the baseline, just saying this is me and Bethany, what do I want that matches me? So you call that the overcorrection, I called the pendulum.
All right, check yes, and again we're speaking the same exact language.
Amazing As far as what people.
Do right when they feel either their pickers broke or they're broken due to repeated mistakes, childhood trauma, divorce, attachment styles, et cetera, I think it's a both and solution. Not to be wishy washy. A lot of people come to me after they've done years and years and years of therapy, and their therapy might have helped them understand why they're attracted to the wrong people, but it hasn't gotten into
a relationship with the right person. So as a dating coach, my job is to get you dating and dating smarter from every step of the way, from how you market yourself online, how you flirt and how you deal with text and how you deal with sex. And there's a whole curriculum that I've created for women and a community where a whole bunch of people who've been successful at this venture hold your hand through this process, so you're not doing it alone when you don't trust your judgment.
So I think there's something wonderful about women in particular. Guys are like, you know, you know, being stereotypical people break up. Women are like what did I do wrong? What could I have done better? How could I have fixed this? How could I have tried harder? And the guys like crazy bitch?
And by the way, but that's what I was saying before.
You could be great, but you're ahead of your skis, yes, and you scare the shit out of the guy, and you'll never get the chance to see what it could have been.
Or you choose a guy who, for all of his qualities, isn't ready for you now and it's not your job to wait for him to change.
Sometimes you could be texting with someone and maybe they have a job where they're really just not on the phone that much, and you could mess it up because texts could screw everything up and you really don't get to know who the person is.
You're right, and I'm as a fifty two year old man, I'm pretty old school. I think we need to resolve things this way. You can't have an important conversation via text, even though it's the most ubiquitous form of communication. I agree, so to your original point. A lot of women that will spend a decade working on themselves and not go on a date, got it. And I don't think you need to do that that I think they go in concert.
That's an overcorrection too.
Therapy is about your past, and coaching is about your present and future. Love that, so, yes, deal with your past and all your belief systems and limiting beliefs that are holding you back, and simultaneously don't sit on the sidelines waiting for perfection. It's the John Lennon life is what happens when you're making other plans.
Okay, you can.
I talk to women who have not gone on dates for years and years and years under the idea that if I continue to work on myself, then I'll be ready for him. I genuinely believe this. You don't have to change too. Find love you have to change your choice in men first and foremost. It doesn't mean that there aren't rough edges to sand off, because we could always be better.
You don't have to change. You have to change your choice in men. You have to change some of your behavior. You You were about to talk about attachment styles. People have different means of communication and attaching, and men and women sometimes have different and mine would be anxious attachment or anxiety. But I call that like this is the control yourself. Like this is where you have to have guardrails on you. In communication. You could be a fast
text or you could be an over communicator. You have to have guardrails. So I think let's talk about this part of it, because I don't think where do I find men is as difficult as when I meet them online?
Or what?
Now I've got to fish? What am I doing with this fish? Because it's going to wriggle right off? Now I've got a fish, So how am I handling that? So let's do that?
Right? No, I think that's really important anxious attachment sign and again you do a really good job of taking complex things and making them accessible. Anxious attachment style is when you don't trust that someone is going to be there for you, because historically they have not been there for you. They have abandoned you, they've disappointed you. So you need a ton of reassurance that that person's going to continue to be there. Nake you feel safe, Yes,
well you don't feel that safety. You do more reaching out. You come from a place of fear. You come from a place of scarcity, and that's the thing you're talking about driving someone away. So for anxious attached women who are looking for masculine and energy men right as women often are, you could generally trust a guy will do what he wants. You don't have to remind him you're alive. And so when I was dating my wife seventeen years ago, she never had to call me. She never had to
text me. It's not that she couldn't have and I wouldn't have responded. But if I wanted to call her, i'd call her phone that to see her. I'd see her. You let him drive the train and choose you by his own volition instead of trying to pull him into your orbit.
But you just made a huge assumption that anybody that has anxious attachment that they're going to act on it. And if you're a really really good chess player and you're like a complicated thinker, you are self aware, you know you're that you haven't labeled it, but you know you might be that type. You're needy or because of your emotions, because of your childhood, but that doesn't mean you're acting on it. You could be I like, you would never never call a guy, never text the guy.
The guy has to call. But if you're seeing that repeatedly, there's like a pad. And sometimes you can scare them away because they think you're like just you're very cold, you're very you know you're not. They'll think you're not interested when you're completely interested, but you just have anxiety inside. So you're trying to completely control the program and they're then freaking out the retreating.
That's a great subtle observation. And so what we try to do in coaching is create an environment where any guy would want to be there.
We both use a lot of metaphors. Right.
I tell women you're the CEO of your love life. Men are interns applying for a job with you. And if you're going to be a company, be Google, be a place where they're giving you free meals and they drive you back and forth from work, and they have people missaging you and your share give someone an experience that they're going to want to come back for more. And so the the tone and the messaging of these emails is not cold. There's nothing that resembles game playing.
It's warm, it's enthusiastic. You respond quickly, but you're responding to his needs instead of reaching out. That's one hundred persons distinction. But when he reaches out, oh my god, I'm so glad to see you. Yes, I'm free on Friday night, that was your day. Yeah, So you can still be warm and enthusiastic and all those things that Nan love, but you're allowing him to demonstrate his interest in you, so you don't have to find yourself in that same place of feeling needy.
Right, And this is when we're dating. This doesn't have to be when you're a full fledged relationship and you feel safe.
That goes out the window. When you have a relationship, we throw that out.
Yes, I agree, So this is and this is when you're a little bit brief. But like you said, you're not cold, you're not distant, you're not playing game You're not trying to be a bitch. You are warm, but you're also busy, booked them busy and make a plan, But it's how do you feel when you're with the person,
and if you create a good experience there. I think a lot of women on the date get into their head and start showing their cards about what was happening when off the date, and I think that's where we get tripped up. So a woman like and I've I've had him, I've had him. Man say to me, wait, well, I wasn't even sure you were excited because your texts were like a little brief now they weren't cold. They just were kind of maybe slightly chilly, but like not but still warm.
And I was like, no, oh really, what was it?
Like? So sweet because you don't want to fall on that trap where they're trying to find something out and then you become needy. They've got all the power and you're doing what you basically would have done on the day.
On the text, I think you just unnerve something that's really important part of you being an advanced dater. And if you forget me omittment for making an observation because I don't know you. Well, obviously, I think we can kind of get into our head and overthink this too much and try to turn it into such a science and right where there's this almost this gamification. He said this, and I'm going to say this, and we could dissect it, and it doesn't mean that either you nor I is mistaken.
But you know and I know that in real life when people make a connection, everything goes out the window.
I totally true being with the right guy totally. That's totally true as well. That's totally true as well. It's just that men don't seem to like overly needy women until they're in a relationship and then they actually need them, they want to be needed.
And then there's another wrinkle to this, which is we'll talk about masculine and feminine. Masculine men want to be the ones to pursue you more and more in society, men, especially younger men, are more passive right, waiting for her to call, for her to make the first move. You've seen white lotus like this. This is kind of what happens is men don't act the way men used to wow and women are more off balance. Right California, it's
a gatting just a very laid back culture. So he's kind of waiting for her to text, she's waiting for him to text. I'm serious, men, So.
Then how are you doing your job when your constructs are the opposite?
Because it becomes more complex, I have to find out a what kind of woman I'm dealing with. Is she a woman who is in her masculine or femin Is she comfortable taking the lead. If she is, it's okay, you can call him. If he's the guy who likes that, it might work. You don't want to give top down dating advice that works. I think you know every person hears to every stereotype. So I find out what kind of personality she has, and then I also have to ask her, Hey, on that first date, is this the
kind of guy who's like first date closer? Because with that guy, you can't nudge him into calling you. But there's a lot of really nice, sweet guys who are not good at dating. They don't have that swagger, they don't have that confidence. They're not going to make the first move. They'll just kind of hang out with you. They're guys who are often friend zoned guys. You know what I mean.
Here's what I think I think that when you get into the swing of dating, you know, and it can't be so black and white. Yes, matchmakers also you want to lean into your feminine and let them be the man, and I get that, but I do think that if ultimately you're looking for a partnership, when you have two people, the best ideas should win. Like, let's pretend, Okay, so I'm a public person. Let's say I date someone who's not a public person, and I'm able to like get
the reservation because it's a great place. I'm not going to be like not presenting that. It's the way that you present it. Now that's obviously not as relatable. But I'm saying there are some women that are strong personalities, and maybe they're more organized, and maybe the guy is great at other things. Maybe he's really great at the map or great at play, you know, once you're on the trip, but the woman's better at planning it. I
think you kind of have to find the rhythm. As long as it's an equal partnership, both no one feels emasculated or demoralized, where both people feel like they have value to the situation and also are receiving value from the situation.
I think that's really great. And on top of that, it is one of the things I thought we were going to lead with today. Because I'm a dating coach for smart, strength, strong, successful women, That's one of the things that comes up all the time. If I'm in the ninety ninth percentile, how do I deal with men who don't have that?
Couldn't have that?
Can I only date in the tiny, tiny percentile of men who are richer or smarter than I am?
What does this mean for all the rest of the guys.
And it sounds like you've had enough life experience to kind of actually figure that out. It's about how you make him feel. He has to be secure enough on his own right. You can't just give a guy that. There are going to be people who can't handle that, but they self eliminate.
They self eliminate, But you have to find out if there is a genuine value that that person provides in the relationship, not just that they'll stay home with the kids if you get married, meaning like that there's a genuine value add in a relationship, meaning it could be a partnership, just like a business partnership, which doesn't have to be some person's operations and logistics and doing things that you might not never want to do, and you
have the vision in the marketing, Like each person likes what they're doing, and one may be more sexy. But I think that women often some women date down sometimes and then like later it catches up with them because it seems like a good idea in the beginning.
I agree, And again, let's let's both and that okay, right, if you're ninety ninth percentile, technically virtually everything is dating down. Now if a man was in the ninety ninth percentile, would we ever say he's dating down to be with a woman.
I'm not even I don't even think the money means dating down. It could be that a person is extremely like really going to help you, like, let's say, with your business, or really is an amazing chef that like cooks amazing meals and you want your kids to be helped like. I don't think that that would be dating
down just because of money. I think dating down is if I think a really rich guy that's richer than you, that it is a mess who's not willing to work on himself or work on the relationship, but just expects it that's dating down.
So I don't think it has to do with money.
We're speaking the same language. But I think a lot of people, I mean, certainly our generation, our parents' generation. My mom got married when she was twenty one. She went from her father's home and to my dad's home. She was a stay at home mom, and then worked part time when my dad had some tough times. I mean, it's a very very traditional middle class thing. Now women are making as much as men in over forty percent
of marriages where there are making more than men. Whomen are getting more degrees, more advanced degrees, and there's lots being written about a lot of think pieces about what's the.
Role of men.
If I don't need a man, what are they even there for? You're right, they have to bring some value. And to me, when I look at how what my wife brought to me, it wasn't an advanced degree and it wasn't money. She's the first person I ever met who loved me unconditionally, who accepted me completely for who I was, without trying to change me. That was her
unique value proposition. After three hundred online dates, and I think if more people paid attention to that feeling, we might have happier relationships because I don't think there's anything much more important now.
And you know, I always say, never settlest on what you deserve and like someone's only going to give you what you're willing to accept.
And I really believe that stuff.
Here's something that I want that has happened to me a couple of times and it's really served me, and you probably have a name for it and you've experienced it. So let's say you're in something, you're dating someone and you like each other, but it's not making you feel the way you need to feel, like you're kind of settling in some way, it's just not at the level where you need it to be. This is what I have done a couple of times and it has worked. But you have to be willing to walk if it
doesn't work. And it's not a game. It's literally the opposite of insecure or of a game. It's just being
completely secure. Where years ago, there was this guy and he was a player, and you know, and I I he was a player, And it happened the next time with the same type of person, a real player had never really had a girlfriend, and we were dating and we really connected, and it was amazing when we together, and the fooling around was amazing, the physical was amazing, All of it was amazing, and the humor like it was, it was elevated. But then when we would separate, it
would be almost like you took three steps back. You took one, two steps forward, three steps back, and then maybe the next time you're supposed to date, you're kind of waiting around and the person hasn't called by a certain time of the day. You just didn't like the way it made you feel. You kind of felt like the floor could fall out at any time. You just
didn't feel like it was evolving. And this guy called like at the late afternoons, like we're still on for tonight, which is fine, but like it wasn't like the comfort level of where we were intimately. It wasn't making me feel good. And I said, and you have to find the way to say it so it doesn't give desperate and needy, and it gives confidence. It's like a woman cutting her hair short but rocking it. I said, I
always need to be evolving. If it's in business, if it's a friendship, I don't Because he said, I don't want.
A serious relationship.
I said, okay, well, I'm not looking to get engaged, but I don't want to be investing in someone if I don't see an evolution in some way, because that's just not what I'm looking for. And he was like, well, I don't want something serious, and I was like, no problem, we can call it. This is what I need like and I had to be willing to walk because if he was will and I kept saying, but wait, but
like we like being together and we like this. I'm like, right, I feel like we take two steps forward and three steps back, and I just won't ever settle for less than what I deserve.
And we went back and forth.
It had to be fifteen twenty minutes circles and I'm like, don't worry, then call it. If you can't do it, then go and he ended up folding. He goes, all right, let's try this, and it ended up being a very successful, very long, very deep relationship on the first one of it's kind for him.
And what I'm.
Saying is it's like in business, if you feel like the deal is not going to give you what you need and you'll later end up presenting it, you gotta walk and it's so hard, but that confidence could end up making the relationship really successful because the person respects you. Like, wait, even if this person knows how into them you are, like you have exhibited and you might say it more in this conversation. I am really into you and I like the way I feel. But I'm into my You know,
I'm not going to settle for less. So where do you stand on that concept, the pride of like who you are and what you're willing to take.
I think it's a really good anecdote. I think it falls squarely under the idea that you're the CEO and he's at the intern. The problem is when you let the man set the terms, When you let the intern set the terms of the agreement and he says, you know what I want. I want the job where I could work once a week. I'm just going to come into the office. I'm going to come in for three hours. I'll do great work.
You'll enjoy it.
You're saying, that's what the guy was saying to me, And he's like, I don't want something serious.
He was doing what you did.
That's what That's what guys always say, right, Okay, got it?
How little can I give that you'll say yes, interesting.
And women give away their power of the No. This is my company.
That's brilliant, brilliant.
If you want a job at this company, I don't know that you're going to have the quarter office and tenure. I don't know what's going to happen, but I do want someone who really wants to be here. And what does that look like from a boyfriend. You're gonna call me every day to see each other two three times a week. We're going to spend weekends together. We're going to meet each other's friends and family. It's going to be an integrated relationship. Then we're going to explore a future.
If that's not in your interest, you're not the guy for this job. No hard feelings. You look cute in the Brooks Brothers suit, you got an amazing resume, wonderful interview that pooh, what an interview, But you're not a good long term candidate for this job. That's brilliant, and I am looking for long term candidates. If you keep on taking on interns who dictate the terms, you're never going to be happy. Yes,