Okay, So I was just talking to someone about I'm not going to overstate this. I'm just going to say it as a as a framework about making an analogy to business with relationships only as it pertains to both parties bringing something to the table. So, for example, I
have a relief work partner. We were just talking about the fires, and his name is Michael Caponi, and it's my longest marriage, he and I. It's been seven years and under the most stressful times in the war, like more stressful than I've ever had in any relationship, like we almost got scammed on thirteen million dollars worth of hazmat suits or in the Ppe crisis. He was like, Beth, and I'm going to fucking jump off a balcony. Are you killing me? Like you know, I'm on his ass.
I was on his ass last week about something like It's but he I've never met someone who can keep up with me and who has exactly is exactly as valuable and proficient, but in completely different ways. And there's never a question about who's doing more work or who's bringing more to the table. It's sort of like all in good faith and we both like are It's a really equal partnership, even though it has like we literally
do completely different things at different times. So the reason I bring that up is because in relationships, I don't think it should be like a tit for tat where it's like you have to do this and I have to do that. But I think that there should be sort of it's not it's not it's like sort of the if it's important to you, it's important to me. It's the unconditional thing. It's it's the not not the things that they did or that you did, but both of you sort of want to put chips in the
middle of the table just because you want to. The best relationship that I've ever been in is one where I want to give, like the way I am with gifts, Like we want to give more than you want to receive, and then hopefully the other person wants to give more than receive and then you know, all boats rise at the tide. So I kind of wanted to talk about that because I've been in situations where I'm the giving tree and then I bend and then I break, and
once you've broken, you can't mend it. And like people take, take, take and push push, push, and just accept that they are the taker in the relationship. But I think it's sort of the mistake my kindness for weakness thing. So I wanted to talk about that whole like meat.
It's interesting as you're talking, I'm sitting here taking notes because there's a lot to chew on here. I think you're correct in that the central metaphor of my coaching is that you're the CEO of your love life, and men are the interns applying for a job, and you have to see if he's worthy of this job. And
there's one job at the company. It's a really important job, and so it's a lot based on not just how his resume looks, for how he interviews at the beginning, but the consistent effort he continues to put in over time once he has the job.
Wow, I keep forgetting that that's your main thing, and that's the most important thing. If I only operated like that every day, that's a great premise.
But sincerely, if I were talking to men, I'd say, you're the CEO, and we need to pay attention to how she makes you feel, to how she treats you. That's the two way street. So whoever I'm talking to. I'm giving them the sense of power that you don't have to put up with this bullshit.
But that's with the tide, that's what you're saying. That's all bangers. That's having an all star team in your office versus one person dragging everybody down. That's the same thing, right.
And so you you mentioned both people wanting to be givers. No one could have a successful relationship if there's one giver and one taker. Now what makes that more complicated is that we're all experts on what we give and what we sacrifice.
Right.
We always pay.
Attention to what we do. We don't always know what other people are doing. So your premise itself is a good one. It's the right one. If you find that you're always given a relationship, well, I guess from here on end.
You got a data giver. But there's also lots of forms of giving. Right.
I'm married to a woman who hasn't worked since we had kids. Her giving is gonna look different than my giving, right, Right, And I'm going to value that because that's what she has to give. She's an active service person, right, So we have to look at this through different lenses. Last thing that based on your notes. That I wanted to bring up, which I think is also important, and it's not to poke fun at you, is that I want a guy who keeps up with me, which is true.
No one's going to argue.
That you shouldn't have to use smaller words for a guy to keep up, right, Like that's true. But what a lot of people forget is that in addition to keeping up with someone, there's putting up with someone right, and humility. That last piece is kind of everything for a relationship. There's just knowing, Hey, I'm a lot, and yeah, I want a man who could keep up with me, but also I want of men who could put up with me and all the stuff that comes with it and having that humility.
And it's not just you. I could say the same thing about myself.
But I would reframe that and say who celebrates you? Because putting up with is a little net Like, for example, I was out to dinner with the Gate couple the other night. They've been together for I don't know, it might have been fifteen twenty years, and they're great and one of them is like a finance guy, and one of them is more of a creative like media guy, and he's more funny and wacky, and he's the peacock.
And the finance guy really celebrates you know. The other guy like isn't like rolling his eyes, it's not too much like he likes when he gets lit and crazy. And they were saying, you need that, like you need that, you're the you, and the other person totally gets a kick out of it, loves when you get lit, et cetera. Not the light dimming, but also not like yeah, not the light dimming, and not someone who doesn't want to be part of the circus. Someone who appreciates the circus,
loves the circus. Like to me, that's that's what we're saying. It's not just putting up with it's celebrating it.
Right, But it's both.
And obviously that person's going to be attracted to all the things that make you you, right, so we need we need both. And thinking, of course, if a woman likes a man who's got charisma, my wife, my wife, you know, had a whole series of charismatic boyfriends who cheated on her, right, that's her thing.
Her dad was charismatic.
So if someone likes charisma, that is going to be a thing that she's drawn to like a moth to a flame. There's also what comes with that, exactly right, which someone does indeed have to put up with. Oh, every time my husband goes to a party's going to be surrounded by women.
Oh yeah, No, it's the rose that has pedal and thorns. That's what I think.
Yeah, right, So that's what I'm saying is recognizing that all good qualities come with bad qualities. And yes, we could celebrate what makes Bethany Bethany. And there's a there's a downside to the circus, and he is the guy who's willing to put up with that, and that's no small thing.
Right, Let's also talk about this. So there's two things. One, there's a guy, Nick Viiel. He has a podcast. I've never listened to it, and I know I think he was on reality TV or The Bachelor or something, but I saw a clip from his show where he was talking about hookup culture, which is not what I'm really talking about, but he was basically saying, no man will ever like fall in love with you for the sex they fall in love with, like the mystique and what
they can't have. He was saying, like, you know a lot of women will try to keep giving, whether it's of sex or of emotion or of a material to try to like you're chasing the dragon, trying to get it. And there's another woman on social media that has a black Cat Golden Retriever theory. She's like, don't be giving him a bunch of gifts, don't be going out of your way. She's like, she believes in the black Cat
Golden Retriever. That like, you want to be the black cat and the guy the Golden Retriever like that, And so I want to know what you think about these sort of like unintentional gamifications of it, like the guys want what they can't have type of thing.
I'm taking copious notes because it's interesting to hear what other people have to say and the metaphors people use to get these complex ideas across. And so Nick Viles thing that men are not just driven by hookup culture. Being the most beautiful woman on the planet is not going to land you a husband. That, in my estimation, is one my wife used created a term that I still use in coaching to this day. Men look for sex and find love.
Well, wait, there used to be a movie called Sex lives and videotape. It was years ago. It was an amazing movie and eighty nine right, and it was men. I forgot this. This is amazing. Men learn to love the women they're attracted too, and women learn to be attracted to the men that they love.
Yeah, and again it's more complicated than that, but that's basically the right idea. So that's why when people reach out for coaching, I don't spend any time. There's enough out there on giving you beauty advice on your skin and your hair and your lips and all that kind of stuff. You don't need a mail dating coach to tell you to do.
That.
Presentation is what's going to draw him in. But every man has had the experience of breaking up with someone who's beautiful because the relationship didn't work for him. Why doesn't the relationship work for him generally because he doesn't feel accepted, appreciated, or admired. Right, you could be the most beautiful woman in the world, You could be a
top chef, supermodel, Rhodes scholar. But if he doesn't feel accepted as he is, appreciated for what he does or admired for what gifts he does, bring to the table. He's probably not going to feel emotionally satisfied in the relationship, right, But.
What if he shouldn't be appreciated because he's not meeting you, or.
You shouldn't, then you shouldn't date it exactly.
Okay, so let's talk about that. So let's talk about you with someone and they don't appreciate you or they're not meeting I think it's really you know, and again bring up someone else. I don't think it was her original concept. With Kristin Cavalari, another podcaster, I heard a clip she said, match their energy. And the truth is, for me, it's more than just that, because that's like
a little quip. For me, it's meeting you where you're at, meeting you halfway, which is why I bring it back to business, like you know, when someone's meeting you halfway, even if it's not perfect, even if it's my partner Michael, that we kill each other. I know that even if I'm doing it wrong or he's doing it wrong, that he's meeting with me where I'm at, He's making the effort. He's like trying to be a partner. And that's what
I think it's about. Not being perfect and not getting it right the intention.
He's bought into the larger concept and that works in business. That also works in marriage, right, like if you're keeping score, you're already losing.
Right.
And my second book, we talk about something called the platinum rule. The golden rule is due onto others. The platinum rule is do more right. Just just constantly give, give, give, And if you find that you're giving and you're on the losing end and you feel depleted because your efforts are not being appreciated or reciprocated, well then you're in a losing relationship that's straining your energy and you should find a better partner, a better job than that.
Okay, So say that's your job, that's your partner. So now you decide that you care about the person, but this is not going to work for you, okay. Because I always think about the friend zone. The friend zone is often a place that people go in they're dating, But what about when people break up? So what I mean is often there's a guy that likes a girl
and he's put into the friend zone. It's very difficult to get out of there unless a woman is at a low point for some post New Year's eve disaster that happened, and then she goes to the consolation prize safety school and that never works. That's the friend zone. What about the friend zone post relationship? What about you break up with someone you're not getting what you need, but they want to have you in their lives and
put you in the friend zone. My opinion for those people is it's kind of the cow in the milk. I don't think you get any You don't get the access pass for like just the cherry pick of what you want, but now the rose and the pedals. You got to do the work and get the bad and the good. You're gonna have to tolerate the bad to get to get the good. You don't get the friend stuff alone. Do you agree with that?
Mac?
And I think you I've said since I've mentioned I think you've got really really great instincts for this based on your experience, and I just have, you know, language that I've developed over the years to talk about that. What you're talking about I called the emotional booty car. Yeah right, I get all the benefits of having a partner, just without the sexual betait I could be there for me. Yeah right Again, I mean we've been there right where someone breaks up with me in my early thirties and
I write her online dating profile. I want to show her what a great guy I am. And I'm just sitting there like a bitch, you know, like hoping she realizes she made the biggest mistake of her life and she's getting all the benefits of the boyfriend, right. And that's what people do when they're feeling weak and needy. And the truth is, if you're the CEO and you're firing the in turn, the intern doesn't get to keep on coming back to work.
Look at you. Yes, you need to have on my new website that's coming out like a little section with just these like little digestible bites. Yes, exactly. You fire the intern. They don't get to come back to work, even if if you fire your fucking number two or your partner.
Yeah, and it doesn't mean you don't care about them or wish them well, but they don't get to keep on showing up at the office or expecting a half of a paycheck. And that's what people do in relationships because it's hard to cut the people.
They reach out to you. You can give them a referral. You could talk to them, but you're not the day to day person. You don't you don't blow them out where they died, you know what I mean.
It's a huge loss, right it is. It's a loss.
It's a morning for people to process when you think this is your person and then suddenly that person you leaned on is no longer there. Both people are going to miss that. But you need to have the courage to say, I can't move on if I'm spending half my time with my ex.
Right and I can't find a new person to fill this position, if I'm still letting this person come in and file two days a week exactly. Okay, So that's excellent. I love your analogy. I think it works really well, and I have to reinforce it because I forgot about it. And it's very good for people. So that's excellent.
I don't want you to forget about your black cat.
Oh right, that's the woman who said black cat golden retriever. She's a woman on TikTok and she's very probably on Instagram too, and it does work. She'll show you people and she'll say ebbs and flows and relationships too. At one point, you're the black cat at one point, you're the golden Retriever, etc.
I what I don't like about that is that it's playing power dynamics. Yes, and it's a little bit nineteen nineties rules base. I'm trying to manipulate him into So go back, let's go back to work. You don't have to put a gun to the interns head and say show up for work. They show up early, stay late.
Why they're self motivated. They want the job. A guy should be a golden retriever, but not because he's weak, but because he desires the opportunity to be in your company and claim you as a partner and as the CEO. Your job is not to be the black cat. Your job is to be like Google, how do I make an environment? Hey, we're gonna have We're gonna give.
You free food. We're gonna give you massages and therapy.
We're gonna that's the King and Queen thing. You're making them your king.
Yeah.
Yeah, How do we make if you are the woman CEO, how do we make the intern incentivized to say this is the best goddamn job I've ever had. The black cat is not trying to do that. She's trying to do this sort of dopamine hit give tape, walk away, and.
It's very It's a good point because you know, actually this is an excellent point because having been in dynamics like this, you get a high and then you get a low. You get it's like a binge eating and then beating yourself up about it. It's not a good feeling. You get the reaction you want for the wrong rea, like you ignore, you match the energy you do. Whatever the gamification is. The person responds for the wrong reasons because they're game. They don't even know they're playing a game,
but you're withdrawing. So they're telling you how great you are, how beautiful you are, and they leaning in. But then five seconds later the rubber bank goes right back and they're who they were. And it's a very not satisfying junk food binge purge model. So I agree.
So games which work in finger quotes, games work, but they beget more games than that insanability. Yes, they're not pleasant, No, they're not pleasant. If a guy got you like he's your boyfriend, then make him feel like a million bucks.
No, But if you do make them feel like a million bucks, and then he pulls back and withdraws because of that dynamic. Some people it's the attachment disorder or the avoidant disorder, and some people are needy and attach, and then the minute that somebody who has avoidant feels the attachment from the attached person, they then withdraw And it feels like games, but it's psychological.
You're correct, ethony, But that brings me back to don't date someone who's avoidant, period. Great, like if that's if you being authentic and showing up and giving, Like, hey man, you were gone on.
A business trip for a week. I sent a car to the airport.
I made your favorite dinner when we got home, right, I put on my cutest thing when we go back to the bedroom.
And he's like, whoa, babe, this is a little much for me.
Well, that you don't want that guy, That that's a signal to run when you are emotionally available giving, and that sense him running in the opposite direction. So fifty percent of the population of men are secure can form intimate attachments, and so it feels differently. It feels a lot safer. There's a lot less games, there's a lot less rollercoaster. You might even say sometimes it's boring, why because he does exactly what he says he's going to do.
That's not meeting you where you're at. That's the same thing I'm saying. That's not meeting you where you're at. And I say, you're married to that person. And like, I've heard many different examples from people's parents, to their own relationships to even kids that are disconnected, Like they don't really experience or explore emotions. They're sort of avoidant.
And I know someone who's in a very serious relationship with someone that basically it took a while for them to realize, you know, we never really get deep, we don't really connect. I know someone who's married to someone for twenty years that they don't feel that they've ever really had deep conversations with. They've had loving experiences and fun and kids and all this stuff, but they really
don't have deep connections. And you have to get deep on your own and be deep to realize that avoidance. And it's sort of like not having a satisfying meal over the course of your lifetime. So let's say you're in a relationship with someone who is avoidant and there is a gamification in your relationship. You're married to them. Can someone change if the if they have the threat of losing you or the fear of losing you, can a person who's like that actually change.
I don't want to be the person to declare how the world works entirely. I have my theories. I don't think. I don't think you could have a relationship dependent upon someone changing for you. I would never bank on it, of course already, right, That's what I'm saying. So people changed by their own volition. You're look in the mirror of New Year's Eve, I'm twenty five pounds overweight. Okay, this is the year that I'm gonna that comes from within.
But Bob, We've been married for twenty five years. I don't think I've ever had an intimate conversation with you.
Go I don't know. But what about Bob.
I'm leaving and then you leave for six weeks. Is Bob gonna go change because or Bob can't change?
I think Bob is being by I don't think. I don't think he knows what to do. I don't think it's who he is. So much of this has formed at a really young age. I'm going to share a story of a client of mind shoes in her early seventies, and she went through my coaching program and she exited with a boyfriend. And this boyfriend was seventies wealthy. He's got a place in Paris, he's got a yacht. He dote about her. He was really, really nice to We got nothing bad to say about this man. She didn't
feel connected to him for this reason. He was just a guy who did well in life. He was a nice person. He was a devoted boyfriend. But she didn't actually have a connection.
She wouldn't go deep.
They just did stuff together.
They did like diction transactional.
But not even like the rich man beautiful woman transactional. It was it was like, come and join my beautiful life and we will have we will have everything. And the thing she wanted was the emotional connection, and this.
Dude didn't have the bandwidth.
Yeah, he just wasn't that guy. And she waited like eight months for him to be that guy. But the truth is she knew this in the first six weeks of dating him. But the package was so was so tempting that she's like, all right, let's just see if this develops.
Of course, and there are people that both parties are very disconnected and from a very stoic background, and the both of them stay married for thirty years because it's just like, no one needs to move the needle that's not of your deep person. You can't be with a shallow person right after