Justin Willman

When I do live gigs around the country, I'll be honest with you. I sel t shirts and swag to the folks who are there, and then people always say, can we get this wag without sitting through a whole evening of you. Well, it's happened. It's finally here. You can buy Craig Ferguson merch on the Craig Ferguson Merch website and you can buy it for yourself or someone you hate or someone you love. For more information and link to the web store, please go to the Craig

You never know. I got here at five am. I rigged the couch up.

Is there a kind of a fraternity or or is there a collegiate sense amongst magicians even though even although you're you're kind of the owen fong teribla of that whole thing, though aren't you. I'll look that up. But what you are is, you're kind of like you're the punk rock man. You're the You're the change, You're the You're the kind of new generation. You're You're it's all different. You don't have a cape, you're much less rape and

Well, wow, there's a lot of compliments to unpacked, right, Okay, first off, right, the fact that you said you're a fan of this is very surreal.

I didn't know that you knew who the HECKU I was.

Oh yeah, No, I'm such a fan of you. Oh I have always been. You know everything about you, have listened to interviews with you. I just I I like you a lot. So this is very cool for me to be here. You're not in the backfoot at all. No, that's great. But now I feel like I'm going to disappoint you. No, okay, well listen, like likewise, as a magician, far too.

Well, I'm not going to ask you to do any tricks at all today. I want to It's not tricks, it's illusions, my illusions. Illusions tricks is fine, but you don't have an assistant wearing a big thing. Would you ever play Vegas? Have you ever played?

I just did Vegas for the first time a week ago with the Venetian, Right, that's that's the first time on the strip. Probably on the strip I've done, like the Sun Coast or the off the Strip, the Orleans, the Orleans as well. You feel like you're in Vegas until you walk out the front door and then you see Vegas in the distance. Yeah.

I love the Orleans though, because I felt like maybe I was part of the rat pack, you know they had the sign was still the kind of shitty writing. Yeah, so smoky. Yeah.

Anyway, so you played? Did you wear a cape? Did you wear a cape? Okay, didn't wear a top hat? No lovely assistance, you know. I think I went through those phases early on when you were just incredible, when I was just incredible exactly.

Wow, this is a great start off name from a magician.

I think it was like this catchy name my mom came up with when I was doing kids' birthday parties right now, And I don't think i'd rather cape them, but I certainly wore talks. You know in public as a teenager.

That's all right. I mean, my my oldest son was was very into magic when he was a kid. He used to Rick Thomas. He loved Rick Thomas. He was on your show a couple of times. Cats. Did he bring the cats ever? I don't, I can't remember. I used to have magic.

You had a lot of magic, I remember, and Alonso was a good buddy mine.

Yeah. Yeah, we didn't see a bunch of magicians when he was that age. He kind of moved on and moved in animation and that's where it became like his artistic expression. But for a while, Chris Angel, he was I guess Chris Angel was a kind of like I guess that was a kind of hairmail, part of.

Punk rock, but very you know, it was new. It was a little goth at first, right, and then it was it was kind of like kiss.

He was kind of you know, but there is that kind of that kind of thing with the younger magicians that you guys do stuff that you can't see. The illusion is like the you know, it's like the oh I'm levitating. No, there's a thing, Oh there's how can he have end up his sleeves he's don't go any sleeves. It's like it's disarming. It's really freaky, like that Magic for Human show that you go to Netflix. I'm like, I don't know the fuck this guy's up to. This is crazy. It's like maybe he's a demon.

Yeah, yeah, a demon in a in a in a boyish costume sorts.

You are boyish. Yeah, So how did it started off for you? Because I always think like, because you're a stand up as well, sort of kind of you have that vibe, right, and you do stand up.

I've never done stand up without magic involved, you know, but I do chunks between tricks, right, you know. And that happened, you know, when I went to Emerson College of Boston. I was just incredible. I was doing kids birthday parties on the weekends, and then befriended Dan Levy, who's a stand up comedian. He became my best friend,

Well, I because I always think of me because I knew a lot of stand ups and it's kind of my thing. And the mentality and the kind of the inside mental workings of most stand ups is pretty dark. And then I've met a lot of magicians, and the stand ups and the inside mechanism most magicians I've met is pretty dark as well. I mean it feels to me like you're jewel addicted point. I mean it's like is there a real is there a real kind of is there a darkness? Well, there's got to be everybody.

But you know, like Dan was my liaison into the comedy world, and I you know, we we'd bounce around town and I would be throwing new stuff all the time, get out of my comfort zone. But he he also has he has no darkness, right, He's just the sweet, right happy optimist, you know, and I had I have a darkness, you know I've had, I've had, you know, there were you know, addiction, little stints along the way when we first moved to l A, you know La.

Well, yeah you can run into that.

Yeah, you can have the wrong neighbors. I had the wrong neighbors. So I first got my first apartment and and you know what was your thing was? It was well, it eventually became crystal math. I know, I never took crystal myth. I feel like I've been soberferred so long that drugs have been invented since and I never go at the crystal myth.

What it is like speed? Yeah all right, yeah, it's like speed on speed.

Yeah, Like you know, I think there was a part of me that just like I had this fomo like I I just didn't want to miss out or anything. But also I had this addiction to what I thought would make me more productive and effective. And you know, like yeah, on for longer, and that's that's kind of what it's for. It makes you think you're you're on for longer.

I liked the feeling of the operas as well. You know, when I'm glad because when I took, when I was in the drugs and alcohol, the bass notes never sung to me, you know, the heroines and that kind of thing, which I'm quite glad of because that seemed to kill people much faster. Whereas cocaine, to me, it was cocaine back then, you know, that's what there were, steam trains, cocaine, phones had big circles on them. It was just a

That's yeah, they're kind of like a one two as well, that kind of doesn't Yeah, yeah, it was kind of uh, you know, I wouldn't. I mean, alcohol was a was a thing for me for a while. I only just now this year January first, you know, kind of out alcohol together.

So which is which was as even.

More of like I have more pride for that than you know, the drugs.

Because the drugs was you know, I it was. It was.

Well, society is not constantly telling you that doing crystal meth is okay, but society is constantly telling you that you got to drink ad a good times. So that's some brainwashing that takes a while time to do it really is.

It's an odd thing. But when I started, when I was doing stand up at the beginning, I was drunk a lot while I was doing it, and then performing sober took a bit again used to it. Yeah, I can't imagine for someone who does something as as clever as what you do, that that being impaired on stage is something you can get away with.

Not pretty, yeah, not pretty sometimes you know, like I would be I would, you know, have a drink or two before a show, and I say sometimes, you know, like last year, and uh, you know, sometimes it would if I'm doing the you know, the show that I'm really comfortable with, it would almost be like a you know, let me throw myself a little curveball of impairedness and let's see how how you get out of this one. Justin you know, there's almost like little self challenges that

Well that the routine, and also I think somewhere in there and I'm I don't know why I'm going here with this, but but there's a sort of deserveability of it, because you know, you're like you're a comer, man. I mean it's like you're you're on the way to being like you're big now, but you're going to be like this huge, big, giant career. And I think when you're a kid and you want that, it's like it's in front of you, and that's kind of it's aspirational and

Yeah, you know, I think maybe that's what what at first, like first moving to LA and you know, I kind of felt like I was, you know, skipped a step. I booked a commercial like a couple of months in LA and you know, I remember when that thing was on the air, I felt like Tom Cruise. You know, it was like and that's when the you know, the bad neighbor influences of celebrating that success took over and then you then you're kind of panicking of like, well, I can't let this go. You got to you know,

It more like a yeah, yeah, you know. It's a job. Yeah, it's a job, and that's that's a great job. Yeah it's a great job. But it is a job. And I think that what's kind of funny I always felt about Los Angeles and and show business and in fact the Internet as well. They all fall into the same category, which is it's only dangerous if you take it seriously, right.

There's a yeah, I've got like a brain trust and you know in making the TV show and anything, all the live stuff, it's it's a lot of you know what, old ancient ideas. Can you reinvent? What's an old trick that you know? Like I've got all these tricks that you have, these old books and tons of books.

You know this.

But you know, you get to a point where when there's a lot of eyeballs on you, you can't just do stuff right off the shelf. Right, you can get away with that when you know you're doing gigs that aren't being put on the internet, you know, but when you're kind.

Of you're the big guy. Now.

Yeah, Now I can't, you know, I can't just you know, do the you know, a trick that I buy at the at the Hollywood Magic So you kind of have to figure out what your spin is on it. And I love I love that, you know, that's the hard work, but I do. I often think one day the luggage is not going to arrive. And I know it's not about the tricks and the props, right, but I know I could go to a Walmart, give me forty five minutes and I could put together an hour show, you know, and do it that night.

I think you could get rid of a body the same way that you do, Like if you had inadvertently, you know, committed a homicide or the road would be a good, amazing race episode. Yeah, I just think, you know, if I mean, if you can put together stuff like that at Walmart, it's just a very useful skill to have, it is. Yes, I'm kind of impressed. A magician brain. The Craig Ferguson Fancy Rascal Stand Up Tour continues throughout

I remember the Magic Castle? Then there's a society of American magicians. There's an international brotherhood of.

Magicians, all right, but ladies get two of us? They do? Yeah? Should they should work on that? The title title's a little antiquated but international. Answer question, I don't know any female magicians knows I think about it. I mean, I'm sure there are many, but I don't know any.

There are there are many, but I mean obviously not enough, right, there are more and more. But there are some great female magicians. In fact, in Vegas. Jen Kramer the only, I believe, the only you know, female headliner magician in Vegas. And she does a great show and she's super funny, it's super sweet.

What happens with magicians that are they like stand ups? Like do they get together after the show and complain about young people and stuff or older magicians who who did it the wrong way? Or they they I think they do.

I mean, I have, you know, groups of magicians who will come to my shows, you know, and in any town, you know, the magicians kind of get together and they come to the show. But I know that what happens after is they go to Denny's and they rip it apart, you know, and there's a bunch of like you know, like magicians love to you know, the tall poppy thing obviously, you know, kind of anyone anyone who thinks their rise above you know, screw them. And I think, you know,

Mute.

Yeah, because we I think, and I was guilty this well, I don't think we got the big picture, which is he's kind of reinventing the context of experiencing magic. You know that it's just a guy in a T shirt on the street, right, and he's just blowing people's minds, and we're living in that, you know, we get to see true human.

He's a little bit of an underground for you, actually, isn't he He's a little bit of an influential figure if I think about what you do and he like he's older than you, and he but he well, I think you combine and what I don't think that David Blaine. Look, I'm a layman. I don't end it, but well, I don't know how good the illusions are, but they seem pretty impressive. But what he doesn't have is he doesn't

I was by start prior to because I started doing magic when I was twelve. And you asked me when I was twelve, with the deck of cards in my pocket, what I wanted to be when I grew up, I would have said magician. So I'm kind of like this unicorn, you know, who got to call his call his profession at a young age and somehow pulled it off. I mean, and it's almost like I don't remember much of who I was before I discovered magic.

I don't think I was charming. I think, like, no, I don't think charming. I knew I wanted to be those things I knew.

I knew like I knew, I idolized like Johnny Carson and would watch them every night and stay up late with my parents. Johnny was a magician, Johnny started as a magician, and that kind of you know, I remember my dad telling me that off off hand and kind of like, because you see Johnny and you're like, how do you get to be that?

How does that? How do you get that job? You know?

And and I used to love seeing what jokes would make my parents laugh. And I didn't know why I didn't get the joke, but I would want to like decode it like a puzzle.

Are you from a big family? No?

So small? So I've got a sister. It was me, my sister, my mom and dad in Saint Louis and uh no cousins. So my parents siblings didn't have kids.

You know, pretty quiet, thanks.

Get pretty quiet? You know my mom's parents. I had both happy time in your life when you were a kid.

So happy. Yeah.

My sister and I often talk about how we I mean, we're very close. She and I are very close, she said, years younger than me. How we we you know, we both feel like we had the best childhood. You know, our parents were very supportive, but my dad was an airline pilot and he was gone a lot, right. My mom was a you know, interior designer in Saint Louis, but a workaholic and an incredible mom. But but you know,

And yeah, that sounds a little familiar to me. Yeah. I mean, like my dad works in the post office, but he was like he was on mail trains and he was away a lot, and my mom was busy. And I think that, you know, my wife has this theory the all stand up I've said this a million times on the show, but that they all stand ups have the same mom, which is cold, with bad boundaries and every start of us hate to goes, oh fuck you man.

But in all magicians, I think have the same mom that just smothers them with love and tells them they can do no rock.

Right. I think it is a little bit like that. And I think which was just kind of interesting because you've got a little of both. Your mom was a workaholic, but clearly you adored her and she and she adores you. So it's like and you you she came up with just incredible. So clearly was invested emotionally in what you were doing and support evolve it. So you get a mixture of both, which makes perfect sense. You're a stand up magician or a magician's stand up. Yeah, you've got

It's the only thing I always knew that I wanted to be. Besides being a magician, I always knew I also wanted.

To be a dad.

What age are your kids? Five and one? So five and a half and one and a half, that's actually pretty good. You're in for like the ten year good bit. Yeah and then and then I guess and you know, the five and a half year old. You know, he's at the point where you know, we have these amazing times and moments, but he can be difficult, you know,

Didn't have that again, Yeah, I know. I mean it seems to be circular though. I mean, look, everybody's different, every kid is different. But seems to me like sometimes when I had trouble with my boys and then to two hours later, it would be fine, you know, but they are unpredictable. I think when you have kids, you go from being the star of your own movie to being the extra in a movie about someone else. Interesting. It's like, yeah, here's the thing that's coming up for

Is it?

Uh, playing Radio City? Is it? Is it stadium magic? Is there such a thing? Is there? I know, it's it's crossed my mind, you know.

Yeah, I mean these days seeing these comics who you wouldn't think are stadium comics, you know, just become so popular that they can play stadiums in it.

And they're not really stadium comics. They're they're comics playing your stadium, playing in the stadium that has giant screens, So people get together and wretch giant screens, right, so you could do close up magic.

And I do use screens like because I don't have big boxes. I don't, you know, everything I do in my show like and I don't know, I think it's came out of just practicality, Like I never, you know, I was doing gigs, you know, private parties and stuff where I just had to arrive with everything.

I just set everything up myself.

So yeah, so like all those kind of big those big toys, I think always felt like I always never wanted to come off magician ing, like there was something like I love.

Magic, but I'm right, yeah, I get it.

I think I always like magic was you know what the first thing I discovered that I was good at that made me want to perform. But I always, deep down just really wanted to make people laugh more than anything, Like I just because of the people that I looked up to and admired, and I just felt like that was this thing that you know, you didn't need to have a trick on you to be able to be

Yeah, but it's a little bit like, you know, it's the hate that Cara top gets for being a prop comic. But the weird thing is, like I know Scott and you ma'am i've met him. Yeah, I mean he's a weird guy. But I defy you to go and see that show and not laugh. It really is, right, I mean, it's crazy that he gets such hate from comedians and then you get to know him and you're going, well, you don't even need to get to know him, just go and see him and you're like, my god, this

He'll do it chunk of just I'm just standing up of just between the cases.

But he won't do anything approaching the level of illusion that you do. It's not anything like that, right he I mean, it's just joke, joke, joke, visual joke, ordinary joke, you know. I mean it's like, do you when you're constructing a show, do you think I've done too much? You know, behold the dove and now I have to you know, two guys walk into a bar or.

Something, I do you know, for me, it's like as I'm constructing a show like right now, you know, I just finished this rank show that came out on Netflix about a month ago, and you know, did Magic Humans.

And I kind of feel like, gosh, what trick? What about?

What?

What tricks are left? You know?

Like and I'm sure just like a stand up has the illusion of writer's block, you know before.

They kind of work through it.

Yeah, it's the same thing because it's you know, I kind of want to do something that feels like I'm not just doing a trick. I wanted to be about something or I want it to be autobiographical or or have have some some meat on the bone.

You know. It's great though, I mean I think that that's fabulous. That makes it a more complete experience for the audience as well. It makes it personal.

Yeah, some message, some some kernel of wisdom or question that lingers with you, you know you, But you come.

Of age in an odd time for an artist though, because the beast, the headless borg that is entertainment is so fucking ravenous. Yeah, if you repeat yourself more. I mean I've taken Haye on this very podcast for telling a story twice, you know what I mean. Well, that's that.

That's the thing is that you know, people start to get hip to, you know, just the same magic plot dressed up. They're like the same as that other thing you did, but you're you know, a marshmallow instead of a ball or whatever.

You know.

Yeah, So that that's what's tough, especially when you know magicians for years have honed their act over the course of a lifetime, right and you know, and then people can binge it in a night and then they expect something new a week later.

It's a very greedy machine.

Greedy machine, but also a machine that has a is very forgetful, right, Like I find a little bit short you know, short term, it's easy to I think, oh god, everyone's going to know that this is that bit from here, and then I'll realize like, no, just you know, people a year or two later, you put a little new touch on it and it's going to feel brand new.

There was a guy that I saw. Maybe you remember it, you'll know his name. I can't remember his name. It was like one of the few times I've been in the Magic Castle. I think he was Brazilian, okay, and he was an older jased on his wax, based on his wags, it's like he actually was wearing pants and a jacket and he was very old school. And he was in a small room. And the magician that I was there with said, come and see this guy, because this is the guy all the magicians are coming to sing.

I mean I would say one of the you know, on Mount rushmore of close up magic maestros, you know, and he's recently he's passed away since I mean, it was a long time. He killed him, right, he killed him. It partly it could be done slower. He's still doing it, but he's doing even slower now. He had gosh, I don't know if he had, if he didn't have one of his hands, or if it was just you know, it was a fake thing, unusable. No, it wasn't a

Card tricks.

But then his famous trick was three I think three balls in a cup now, not the cups and balls, but like a little tea cup or an espresso shot cup with a little mug, and then three little balls of clay and he would say, watch he would drop him in one, two, and the third one he just throw it away, put in his hocket and he said, can't be done slow, and then he took the cup over and there's three again, and you're like, okay, I

It's a duck from a straight jacket. He's not a chicken from his pants. It's a completely different show. It's a different show, and it wasn't in the Magic cast. But but that, I mean working with that, I've never seen you do it with animals either. You don't do that well.

So when I first got into Magic, and I think we're on age fourteen fifteen, I discovered Lance Bert and I'm sure you had lance on your show a couple of times. He would do his dove act that he was famous for, which is him in a tuxedo and kind of classical music and these you know, handkerchief boom dove gloves turned into doves and there's nothing I mean, honestly, even to this day, like there's nothing more, you know, eye candy tricks per minute magic in your face.

You don't need to speak the language.

You're just watching and it's incredible, Like his six minute dove act is just you know, the best piece of magic I've ever seen. I of course wanted to do that, so I got on the VHS tapes and you know, by fifteen, I had like thirteen doves in a cage on our porch and I would you know, obviously I'm spoiling too much. The doves have to go somewhere, right, so they're probably you know, secreted in your pants or whatever. And I would do this dove act, and.

You know, it's an animal cruelty. I expect it's gone.

It's gone, it's gone out of fashion a little bit. I mean, you listen, I mean I was never I was. I loved my doves, you know, very very much, but you are doing something quite unnatural to them, right. They have to be at a dark place for a little while, and then they.

Have to be in front of a well, that's why you should do rabbits, because rabbits live in a hole under the ground. They don't mind a dark place. That's true. You put on a rabbit, it's like I'm home.

But then the rabbits all of a sudden, you know, what the hell?

Yeah, yeah, I know, that's true. It would be a fright. Now, you're probably best staying away from all.

I did, like the I cut it down to one dove eventually. And when I first moved to La, I was doing kids' birthday parties, so I had a dove and a bunny. I would open the shore with a dove and I'm closed with the bunny, book ended with the animals. But I was one time the dove flew into a tree in a backyard and I had another gig to go to, so I was trying to like not panic, but I was like, Okay, I'll come back later.

Oh my god, that's probably best you stay away from the kid's birthday parties now. I mean it's although I'm sure is it legal even to do that with animals now? I don't know. I mean if tastes of God to have changed, I mean people know, like remember like circuses used to have elephants holding each oy of those tales.

You could just know so much now that even if we see an animal not mistreated, just the idea of that now, you know, like.

This animal is basically a prop.

After this beautiful performance where it looks like it's you know, happy and funning, flirting about, it's going to go into a cage and into a car and back to you know, it's hard to not think.

About what about the tigers, the Siegfried and Roy thing? Is that still going on in Vegas? The tiger rights and stuff or this thing?

I don't know that tigers are happening much these days. Yeah, I think didn't end well, No, that's true. Yeah, yeah, I mean I had I had my brother in law's his wife just went to the zoo yesterday. Yeah, you know, uh take their kid. And there were protesters this his mother's day. They're protesters saying, I hope you enjoy your Mother's Day while you're supporting the the kidnapping of animals, you know, so even.

The La Zoo. So that just to take my boys, I'm going to the zoo. Yeah, Like I said, the Flamingos, like I don't pee on themselves to stay cool and to stay pink. That's right, Yeah, And the is that true? Is that what keeps them pink? I mean, I don't know, but I was thinking of the John Watters movie. There ye different, different type of thing, but the smell of the Flamingos because they pee on themselves to keep going, I don't, I don't care for. But everything else. Did you see the baby Eppop?

I guess it's growing up now that they didn't see the baby Hippi message. But I like it's like, you know, the l A Zoo you think. I mean, sure there was the blackfish the Sea world time, you know, and it's easy to get against that. But yeah, but it's like, are we heading to a place where we're not even enjoy animals in a way of learning about them?

I don't, I don't know, but I don't. You know, I'm not qualified to talk on this, but you know what, we should get somebody on this podcast and then you have to come back and defend your position, maybe you could lose lose, you know, using very for animals, like animals like maybe a you know, a snail or you know, a hamster, something not in vertebrate, but it's something that's small enough that you're not really or yeah you're not, but that again, hamster is any going by impressed? A

I mean, I mean, I will say there's something there's something so magnetic and mysterious about magic and magicians.

I agree, right, I agree.

I mean the just like comedy, you know, like any any any comedian. I mean I have several comedian friends who you know, don't want if you're gonna if if you've got a girl who they might be interested or whatever. It's like, just have her come to my show, like I want their first depression to see me doing my things, almost like you're afraid of being the meeting a normal person. It's like you love so but there's something alluring about defying the laws of the universe.

And like how do they do this?

You know that is obviously naturally attractive where you know in that book the game, you know, like one of the techniques is, you know, learn close up tricks, you know, to to entertain people on dates. There's something romantic and and.

Just I think it's quite cynical though that because I know there's there's stuff on Lane. There's like in sales in the Middle East to put together clips of me talking to actresses on the old late night showing them like flirt like Craig Ferguson. I'm like, yeah, that's not really what's happening there. That's a late night and then I don't see these people after that, so it's it's kind of like it's almost like, you know, bring doves out of your sleeves, like you know, it's no you can know.

And for me, the girls that I was always drawn to are girls that certainly weren't into magicians, you know, like it was almost like I had to overcome what being a magician, being a magician, you know, or just because of all the things that are preaking, you know, the baggage that magicians bring along with.

Well, they do have historically a kind of creepy vibe, I mean, but I think that was more just changing taste, like the like a society changed, you know, a sort of mysterious gentleman with a cape and became a little more jack the rippery and a little less gentlemanly. I guess you know what I mean. It's that's under that cape. Nothing, nothing's under that case. Yeah, yeah, take a look. Yeah,

If anything, there's this cachet of you know, a good magician is maybe hard to trust because you think, well, they're just really good at lying. How do you ever know when they're telling the truth. Well, do you know they don't have a secret life going on?

Well? Yeah, I think that's probably true. Yeah. Remember that movie with Christian Bale and what is it called The Jackman Hugh jack Prestige, The Prestige. Did you like that one? Love that? Yeah? Was that the one? Maybe it was another one. There was one of them that said to be a magician, you have to be the smartest man of them. Does that sounds like Michaelcaine. Yeah, it must be there. If you want to be a magician, Yeah, you have to be the smartest man in the room. Yeah.

No, I wasn't so SPRAWNI I was short and little short. Maybe I did the same thing the gold frock of curly hair.

See I was I was. My nickname was Tubby when I was a kid. So I think like achieving my way out of being Tubby was a real driving force to me.

I was like, god'll not be Tobby. Yeah, I think I just was. I The draw of magic for me was that I was. It felt like it made me special for the first time, you know, like.

I was not.

I was mediocre at all extracurricular activities. But when I discovered magic, I was the only magician in my school right, and so automatically I was special and then I was okay, I was decent at it.

So that made me clearly special that people would.

Want to be like, hey, come over here show it's that trick, you know, like you're kind of like, wow, finally, yeah special.

You know what about the idea of the press, these trick the you know, the water tank for Houdini and all that kind of stuff. Is that is that a thing for you? Is there is there an illusion like I want to have a crack at that. I have a crack at that trick. Yeah.

Well, I mean there's bits in my show that I that I that are kind of my my babies, you know, my opener, my closer that I do, which I do you know, I want to shoot us.

You're asking like what's next?

You know what I want to do is and I'm going to do later this year is like a live stand up magic special kind of like a Netflix stand up special, but do it live, but well not live, but just live on stand I would love to do it live. I don't think I'm famous enough for Netflix to get behind it as a live event, you know, Brady roast Yeah, just to know that I didn't No, no, like roast man, I don't get it.

I just don't get it. I got I'm like, why why would a person put themselves in that position? Like was Tom Brady going to get over that money? Money? Maybe that's what it is. Of course, you know that.

I would say the big takeaway that everyone at least was in my mind, it's like, wow, what a what a good sport? You know, like all the little jabs kind of all forget You forget them by the next morning. But you're like, wow, he really took it like a champ.

You know. Yeah, I wouldn't be I don't think i'd be that good a sport.

I wouldn't be be on replay. In my head, it would I'd never sleep again. Yeah, like Jesus can do that. But I don't know anyway. So is there a big thing? Is there a big illusion, you know, not for a stadium show? Is there a stadium show? I mean you said you were thinking there has really been. I mean that's the end game for you. I think it has to be go to that point. Yeah, I mean Steve Martin did Arenas right, Yeah, just arrow in his head.

Yeah, talented stand up as well though, I'm very talented, very artistic in his leanings. And also a musician. Are you religious? Are you? Are you musical? What else? I love? Okay?

So, I mean I love music. I feel like all magicians, many magicians really wanted to be a musician because there's all stand ups well and there. I found that so many musicians love magic and wish they could do magic right, so, which means you can't.

Win the same with same with musicians. I've met famous musicians like I want to try stand up, please, don't just continue to play the guitar.

Yeah, yeah, I mean I'm not religious. I was raised going to church and stuff, but that kind of all fell to the way side flavor flavor of Presbyterian Presbyterians.

So there's not a lot of tricks going on in Presbyterian there's no there's no kind of biscuits turning in Jesus or wine turning.

And I mean it's all representative, right you do a turn a staff into a serpent. You know, there's good material in the Bible, none of it's on its feet, you know, Like it wasn't a church that had the props.

Well that ye see, that said. I was raised the same way. I mean we were told we were the chosen people, but all we got was a white room and a eater, right. It Like I'm not sure that's that, but I think the whole vibe of old religions seemed to be you're the chosen people and everyone else is a little not the children. Are you raising your kids Jewish? Jewish?

Okay, all right, that's fine. Yeah, I think that's good. Timing is great, Yeah, that was It's a good choice.

I like, my wife is Jewish, my my oldest son's mother's Jewish. He's Jewish. You know.

It's like yeah, and honestly, like I I love it. I feel like like I did you convert? I didn't convert, you know.

Because there's a price to pay as a gentleman if you want to convert. I mean yeah late for yeah, yeah. Every time I go and see my doctor every year in Los Angeles, Jeff Grant. He's my doctor. He's an ol Jewish gentleman. I love him. He's my friend. We hang out when we're not working together. But every time he gives me the exam downstairs every year, he looks at my penis and he says, you know, I can fix that for you, and like, I don't. I don't

We do we do Shabbata on Fridays one we're all in the same place. When I'm not out of town. We do the you know, a proper passover. We don't go to temple every week. Right, So we're about as so technically less observant than I was as a Presbyterian, but Presbyterian, you know, for me, it's really just about the there's just you know, kind of just the cultural and the rituals and the tradition.

The tradition.

It just feels, you know, there's nothing I can't get behind, you know, and it feels really good.

I agree. I mean that there are aspects of all areas of all worship. And I'm not a religious person at all in the sense that I follow any doctrine, but I I'm kind of interested in all of it. I think that the the idea of it. But I wonder, as as a magician, does it make you cynical about that? Well?

I think yeah, magic makes you cynical about a lot.

A superpower outside of politically, Yeah, I mean yeah, it's like, how do I make it so I can do it? Yeah, so you remove yourself from the age of miracles, like I would love to experience a ghost. I would love to have been to Scotland. Yet I haven't been to Scotland. Yea.

My best magician pal, my right hand man, my co creator for Magic for Humans, is a Scottish gentleman, Stuart McLeod.

Right, there's a lot of Scottish magicians, actly, Yeah, and then they kind of there's small dark rooms you yes, well you can.

And he's got you know, he's he's a lovely father of almost two coming soon and he but he's got this, you know, you can tell he's got a darkness within.

Him that it's just part of his power. Yeah.

But he was part of a magic duo, Barry and Stewart, which I don't know if you ever bearver on your radar, very.

I don't know them. But that wouldn't mean anything because I know that clue I don't allow each other. Well, you know why I got to tell you why I had magic week on the late night show. I used to have Magic Week every week on the Late night Show, but it wasn't really because I loved magic, although I do love magic. What happened to was a friend of mine who worked on the show, was in Las Vegas and he got a little out of control and he inadvertently stole a vehicle and got about twenty yards down

Wow, that got your foot in the door, and then you were no longer forced to do it.

You did it willingly. Well I did it willingly. And also I had a son who was fascinated by When Milo was you know, I guess three four years old. He used to watch this old timey stuff there was a guy who used to bring alarm clocks out of his hat, would you know. I was talking about back in the nineteen thirties or something there, and they would come out ringing, right, I would bring these alarm clocks

Well, it's this little secret society because it requires so much, you know, solitary work, you know, where you're practicing or as a teen, you're just kind of reading and you're obsessing, and just like I'm sure with comedy, kind of like you know, no one's going to write your act for you. You're kind of trying to just figure it out. And then you kind of find this group of people who all did that same.

Yeah, you find your volitary thing.

You find your people, and you have this past and common and magicians in particularly, you know, have a you know, there's there's so much magic history and there's so many tricks that have been done, and there's so many references and terms, and you know, like you almost have a

It's really cool. Is there is there a kind of Anthony Bourdain world where you can you know, you can go to other societies and other cultures, you know, like when Tony Burdema go and see how Libyans eat food or how the food was in Vietnam? Is there is there that for magic? Is there is there a because every society has their their magi, sure they mean, so is there a world where you can go and do that? Is that? I mean totally?

I mean what traveling around the world and dipping into other.

Other countries magic?

Yeah, I mean David Blaine did a little bit of that, and you know where he would go to, you know, more remote places in the world really just to show how magic is this universal language, you know, right, so you'd watch him amaze people who maybe who have never seen a television before. But there, you know, he's making berries go for one hand to the other.

It's very visceral.

But yeah, I mean, even despite the language barrier, it's this magic universal language where.

It's a human desire, isn't it. There's a human desire for food and there's a human desire for wonder, but what you supply is wonder with the you know, the kind of wink that this is not really magic. I'm just very clever.

Right it's empty calorie wonder right now.

But is there is there a part of you that still that believes in I don't know, know Santa Claus, but but in in something beyond the palea you? You know, is there a would you like, is there a UFO or a ghost or is there a something that you go I can't explain that, and it makes me feel weird. I mean the I mean the universe. Where do we all come from?

Is this explainable thing that obviously religion all of them can explain it for you in some way shape form.

I mean I satisfactorily, I think exactly.

I mean, like I I believe that ghosts could exist. I believe that aliens probably do exist. I would love to you know, like all that. It fascinates you know, how where like how insignificant are we, you know in the big scheme of things?

How many of us are there? Is all so?

But but I don't in terms of magic, like even though it's clear that I am am I'm a liar, right, I'm a fancy. You're a performer. I'm a performer. I'm spinning a yarn and I'm trying to create this wonder and illusion. You know, Even then people still are like, I know you have to say, but there's that one was real, you know, like you know, we we so want there to be and I so do you know, like I love going to the Magic Castle and being blown away, like.

Being Oh so you still get out, Yeah, that's great.

I mean it's harder to fool you, just like I'm sure when you go to see comedy, you know it's you.

Know, there is no there is not a comedian on earth I would pay money to go and see. No, no, no, there's not one comedian living or dead that I would pay money.

But if you happen to be in the back of the comedy store and someone comes up, you've never heard of this pot.

I've never been in the comedy store in my life, I would never go there. No never. I don't know what it is. I just I can't even it's that gratul Marx thing. It was like, I can't. I would never you know, join a club that would have me as a member. I can't. I wish I could. Even when I was doing Late Night, I remember having a conversation with Jimmy Kimmel about this, and he was saying, you know, we should all get together and have lunch or something, because there's so few of us that do it,

I get that, Yeah, I get that, because it is a I mean that is a maybe one of the most exclusive clubs there is of late night talk show hopes. Who and only you, you know, the dozen or so who were even still living, have experienced what that life is like.

Yeah, sure, like what the thrill, I'm sure it is like. But I remember Seth Myers called me when he got the job doing the other show and I was still doing Late Night, and I said to him, congratulations, you'll go fucking crazy. And I saw him a couple of weeks ago, and he hasn't gone crazy. He's the only one I know that hasn't gone crazy. Everyone else is going crazy. I don't think Seth is crazy. Well, and when do you think? I think? No, I wouldn't go

And that's and eventually your your wife also doesn't give oh no, that that happens, you know, as soon as it kids right, And sometimes I mean, I I guess that's that's that's probably what does keep us from being how you need, you.

Need to have it, you need to have it. It's the counterway, you know. I mean, I think that it's funny though it's not that they became bad, it's just that it's a weird world. I tell you a story about a year ago. I was in La and it was early in the morning. I was on to do some work and and I was in a hotel. I thought, God, I need a pair of sneakers. It was ten of us, So I'll go with the grove. It's just open. I'll go with the grove and I'll get a pair of

So if somebody said, let's say, I say, and I am now, it's always felt like the dream job.

It's the ultimate goal.

It'll it's it'll bring me the happiness I seek. Yeah, would you try to talk me out of her? Yeah, I would try to talk to you out of it.

But actually no, I don't know, because I think you're part of the new generation. I think you're like Seth. I think you're like I think you're not I think I remember talking to Bill Hayder about something like this, because I was talking about the the vibe in Saturday night Life when you were there, and he said, you know, I said, was there a lot of rivalry? Because when I came up, performers were very you know, there's a

But is it one of those things that you know, I got the job and then it's just a constant treading up water to keep.

The job or to No, it doesn't become that high. Here's what's wrong with it. Here's what I found wrong with it. You walk into a building. I'm probably repeating myself. Don't make people angry. But if you walk into a building every day, and those pictures of you everywhere, there's one hundred and fifty people work in the offices, one hundred and fifty two hundred people, there's pictures of you everywhere.

And it's probably something that comes from the people around your trying attact you right.

They say, it becomes a thing, you know, but it's not true. You can look at me in the air. I'm doing right. I know you're doing. It's free out because I think they're up to say nobody gave you the best. Just this would be such a great time to meet you. I I am now your friend. I love that I remain your fan and that's great. Thanks for coming in and continued roaring success to you. It's it's spectacular of what you're doing. Thank you. Great. This this brought me joy, great