Waterfall Plunge: Jon Cheney's Journey Through Whitewater Kayaking and Life

But beyond his adrenaline-fueled experiences , john is also a creator involved in so many pursuits that it can sometimes feel overwhelming to know which path to take . Fortunately , john is a man of faith and his guiding principle one that I love as well is simple it mattereth not only be faithful .

Get ready for an episode full of adventure , inspiration and valuable life lessons with John Cheney . Welcome to Journey with Jake . This is a podcast about adventure and how , through our adventures , we can overcome the challenges of life that come our way . While I expect you will learn some things about different adventures , this show will entertain you .

Each episode will feature different guests or guests as they share experiences and stories from the different adventures they have been on . Not only will you be entertained , but you'll also hear the failures and trials each guest faces and what they have done or are doing to overcome the hardships that come their way .

My goal is to take each of us on a journey through the experiences of my guests , with the hope that you'll be entertained and inspired to overcome your day-to-day challenges . After all , it's not all about the destination , as it is fun . Welcome back to the show . I'm Jake Bushman , your host of Journey with Jake .

Today's episode is a fascinating conversation with John Cheney . From whitewater kayaking to compels and music . John is incredibly talented and I know you're going to love hearing his stories and insights . Before we dive in , just a few quick housekeeping items If you haven't already . Be sure to subscribe to Journey with Jake wherever you listen to podcasts .

You can also watch episodes on YouTube . Just search Journey with Jake podcast . And while you're there , don't forget to subscribe and hit that like button . Want to connect with me and get behind the scenes content ? Follow me on Instagram at Journey with Jake podcast to see clips from past and upcoming episodes and say hello .

Journey with Jake is proud to be part of the Podmatch podcast Network . If you're looking for more great independent podcasts , check out podmatchcom forward slash network . This is the first time I've had a kayaker on the show and I know you'll enjoy not only John's thrilling stories but also the powerful life lessons he shares .

If you like this episode , you might also enjoy episode 18 with Brooke Wheeler , where she shares her experiences with pack rafting and river rafting . All right , let's jump in . Here's my conversation with John Cheney . All right , I'm excited . Today I have John Cheney on the call . I was messing up . I was calling him Cheney . I bet a lot of people do that .

Most people call you Cheney .

learned , how you've grown , things like that .

So , before we dive into some of your adventures and we're going to get into some whitewater kayaking , which seems really cool to me , so we're going to talk about that , amongst some other things but before we do that , tell us a little bit about John , where you're from , kind of a little background , so we know who you are .

But we ended up detouring to Paraguay for a few years and my parents were served as mission presidents there and that was an adventure for sure . I was a teenager , you know , in a foreign country , learned Spanish , lots of great memories there and then came back , you know , we ended up , you know , moving to Utah after that and ended up in Sandy .

That's where I went to high school and then BYU . I served a mission in Taiwan , came back , majored in Chinese and in business , got married and now I have four kids and been married for about 13 years now and we live in West Mountain , utah . I love to do a bunch of things . Obviously , whitewater , kayaking , I really love to create .

I've always loved having a GoPro with me . I've got one just sitting right here . I always have a GoPro , whether it's for adventure or just , you know , going to the bottom of a pool or something , something fun like that , or even , just , you know , handing it to my kids as they go down a slide .

So I always like creating videos and music and I'm a musician , I'm a composer , I've got TVs , got a piano there and a piano leaning up against the wall over there with more computers , and another piano right there and guitars , and another piano right there and guitars .

And anyway , I love music , I love creating and that really probably drives everything that I do is this creation thing and I actually really love to inspire others to create as well .

And so , from that creation bug that's in me , I'm also an entrepreneur and have started a few companies and sold them and done a lot of stuff in that arena and I'm writing a book and again , it's just if it's creation . I'm probably dabbling in it and probably doing most of it just okay , but I really enjoy it , I love , I love .

What I believe is is a God given gift of creation that everybody has , not just me . Everyone has that gift to create . I think that's a , I think that's an eternal gift . That's really , really exciting , whether it's the power of creation of other humans by actually having children , all the way down to hey , you know what ?

I'm going to knit something today , or I'm going to make a beautiful meal , or I'm going to , you know , compose a symphony , or whatever it might be Right .

And then today you have , you know , influencers , you have social media everyone's and so I think that I think that , uh , I'm probably just like everybody else and I love to create and share that with others .

What were the things that you did as a kid ? That kind of drove , that creation ? I mean lot of instruments . But the piano I started when I was very , very young . My parents were musical .

And they just kind of made that decision early on and and I was taught by my mom and my grandma just you know , here and there , nothing really like oh hey , let's sit down and have your 30 minute piano lesson , kind of just offhand .

And then , probably at about the age of four or five , I started with some piano lessons , had them for until I was about 12 , pretty , pretty regularly , and then moved to Paraguay and then I was kind of on my own from then .

But yeah , it started young and , and I think probably probably about the age of 15 , I really started composing a lot , and I'll back up a tiny bit there .

At about age 13 , I was introduced to a new type of music that I didn't really have much experience with , which was called jazz Right , and jazz requires a lot of on the spot creation , like you have to .

They say , okay , hey , it's your turn to do a solo and start improvising and all I have is some chords in front of me and there's , you know , a rhythm section going drums and a bass and some chord progressions and I just have to make something up on the spot , on the fly . And that was really .

I was really uncomfortable the first time I had to do that and , you know , after doing it a few thousand times I got better at it and started saying , hey , I can probably write my own music and I started coming up with my own things and anyway . But I've always just loved creation and I really love media .

I remember growing up watching things like Star Wars and stuff like that that everybody did . But I just loved paying attention to the details and thinking about how it was made . Like how did they get that shot ? How did they do that technology ? How did they ? How did they make that laser look like that ? Like what was that exactly ?

Was that a computer generated thing or was it some sort of prop or something anyway ? So I would always just kind of think about how things were made and then got into video creation pretty young as well that's a good description of you then .

Did you ever have when you were a kid and you had those . You know you're , you're learning the piano Cause I , you know I've heard of some kids who are forced into it or whatever , and they resent it . Did you ever have any feelings like that ? Or do you always enjoy it ? Or was there moments where you're like , eh , I don't know about music ?

I just I learned all this movie music and that you know , before we got on here , I was playing my trusty Spotify playlist of soundtracks .

I love soundtracks and I write a lot , like many of the great soundtrack composers John Williams , thomas Newman , alan Silvestri , all those guys and so I think I just got inspired early on because I didn't , I wasn't forced to do it . Then I moved to Paraguay . I'm a teenager looking for stuff to do . You know , we don't have a mission .

President's homes aren't like crazy big and nice . They're fine , they're very comfortable , no complaints there . But we had a piano and a trampoline outside and even had a pool . But you know , I can only do those other things so much .

And I just found myself constantly coming back to the piano saying , hey , this is cool , and I'd pull out those movie books and I'd have these movie books of 200 different movies and I'd just read through the whole thing . I got so good at it and I just really enjoyed it . And then I started .

I started getting good at at this and I just really enjoyed it . And then I started , I started getting good at at this jazz piece where I would then be able to say , okay , now , instead of only having the notes that are on in front of me , what can I add to it or take away from it , or how can I change it ? Or can I move it up and down ?

Can I change keys ? Can I ? Can I just modify it to become a little bit more my own ? And that was the stepping stone towards saying , okay , I can completely compose something that's that's my own now and now it just comes naturally to to be able to do it . But creation , the beginning of creation , is hard . When you first start , it's not easy .

And there you are , and there you are in paraguay learning spanish , which is a foreign language 100 .

And you know chinese , yeah , I learned it very , very quickly , and it wasn't because I think I'm just really smart , I think it was because , number one , I had already learned Spanish , so I'd already learned how to approach communicating in a different language . And , number two , chinese has a tone system where you have one , two , three , four , five .

You have five different tones , at least in Mandarin , seven in Cantonese . But you have this tone system that is kind of musical . You have a high one and a low one , and a rising tone and a lowering tone and different things like that .

And so there's no question that music was a language , and so I already knew English and then I learned Spanish and I was a musician and so going to Chinese was , I think , god just said , hey , he'll be able to learn Chinese easily , head on over Right , and so I really loved it . I really loved Chinese .

It became really , really good and really took the language apart . Again , I liked understanding why the language was put together in the way it is , and Chinese is just a bunch of symbols , a bunch of codes kind of right , where you have , like , the symbol for glory , which is actually three trees over fire . Right , that's the symbol for glory .

And so what does that mean , I don't know . To me it reminds me of a burning bush and something glorious happening as a result of that , or glory being displayed , and so I like understanding the why behind how things are put together , and I think that's part of what makes me at least a curious creator , learning that Chinese , I mean obviously .

And you , and it's because what my dad had done and he was very successful , and you know , he did all these great things and I'm like , well , hey , he did all right , I'll just kind of follow in his footsteps . I went to my first class . I don't know if you went to byu or took accounting or if you did , if norm nemro was the teacher at the time .

He's been there forever , but man , that guy , even on 2x speed , was really tough to watch and listen and learn from . And anyway , I , just , I , just I didn't Debits and credits . I'm still trying to figure it out . That's probably why I'm always in debt . No , I'm just kidding .

But bottom line is I just didn't really enjoy it and so I quickly changed to a music major . I said I got to do something that I really enjoy . So I switched to a music major and that was fun for about four classes .

And then I was like the teacher said no , I want you to write something that's like this and I don't want you to do this thing , I want you to really do this . And I was like , no , I don't like being told how to create , I want to do it my way . Then I went on a mission .

I had some time to think about it , came back and I was like , all right , I know , I want to be an entrepreneur , what is the ? But I also had this thing , this , this thought in my mind of president Hinckley had said obtain as much education as possible . And I just had that in my mind .

So I said , okay , the way I'm going to apply that in my life is , you know , beside , being a lifelong learner , but for college , I'm just going to graduate , right , I'm going to figure out what's the fastest way out of here .

And Chinese was the fastest way out of it because you could graduate with a huge amount of credits , because it's a really difficult thing , and so I was immediately a junior . I also had , you know , 70 credits , ap credits or so from , you know , from high school , and things like that , and so I had I had , you know a quick pathway out .

But I also said , you know what , if I'm doing Chinese , I do want to make money . You know , in life . I do want to do that too . I don't want to just be a Chinese professor , but I bet you there's going to be a growing need to do business with China , and so that was my first . I did it , and here I am . I have used my Chinese .

I'm not quite doing . I have been to China several times and actually done a decent amount over there , but my current business doesn't really do it much . So anyway , wow .

Languages , music and , in the meantime , adventure . You love adventure For you , John . What does adventure mean to you ? Just going ?

It's more of an adventure Running , jogging , I'm skiing , maybe I'm even golfing and looking for my ball that I hit off on the side . It's more of an adventure running , jogging , hiking , climbing , whatever I can find in the mountains , just going up and saying , hey , I see that peak , let's get up there Right . Or I wonder what's in that cave ?

Can we get to that spot right there ? Anyway , I love adventure . I've always been no-transcript , connect more with my son and do stuff , and so he was looking .

One day in outside magazine I just kind of saw this little ad for a kayak school out in Northern California called Otter Bar and in fact I've got a sticker of it right there and that kayak school was this kind of private thing , like very like small , 15 people per week , a couple thousand bucks for the whole week , all included , and just like top notch ,

really fun . So you want to go kayaking ? I said , sure , why not ? I didn't really think much of it , but I went there and turned out turns out that the kayaking world is not huge , right , it's not like the NBA , where there's millions , hundreds of millions or a billion fans . It's relatively small .

The best in the world are the ones that end up teaching later on , and so and you know , at least at the really , really good places like Otter Bar and Otter Bar was best of the best , right , it was the Sturgis family and one of their sons , rush Sturgis , was a world champion multiple times over , about a year older than me , and I got to learn from people

like that how to kayak and the way that they talked about it and the way that they taught it , and then just the experience of finally getting onto big rapids . And you start small , right , and then you work up , you learn how to roll the boat over and all that stuff .

But the first time you go down to class three rapid these huge things or you learn how to surf on a wave where you can just going back and forth and you could just sit there all day long on this standing wave and do tricks and all this stuff . I was hooked , man .

I came home from that week and I said I'm a kayaker and I ended up going back to that same school about 11 different times over the years and it ended up shunning because of COVID , unfortunately . So you can't go there anymore .

There are plenty of great schools and if you want to learn about them , I can point you in the right direction , but the sport of kayaking really , really said okay , yeah , you're an adventurer , this is what you want to do , and I even got to the point where I was a sponsored kayaker at one point , getting free gear and things like that to post videos and

content and stuff like that . I don't do that anymore because I used to paddle a hundred days a year and now I'm lucky if I get in 20 , still love it .

I still , I still will go to pretty big and you know I can jump on a class five rapid and work my way down comfortably and you know , not squeezing too hard on the paddle , but lots of good stories .

But yes , one to five is the typical system where one is going to be kind of flat water . Two is oh , you got some rapids , got some stuff going on . A three is you have rapids with obstacles that possibly can hold you and flip you over and things like that .

Class four is you have multiple obstacles and multiple moves that you have to make and the danger level is up even higher .

Five is very large , powerful water with multiple obstacles , with must make moves that you , you , you gotta make them right or else you're going to be , you're going to be in trouble potentially , and and then you have maybe a little bit of a rating system that goes to hey , this is a five plus or a five minus or a three plus or a three month .

So you get a little bit in there . Really , I think the rating system should be okay . What's the difficulty in terms of what I just said , in terms of like number of obstacles , must make moves , things like that .

And then I think there should be a consequence or a danger rating attached to it , because I've been on class three rapids where if I flip over and swim , I'm going to scrape up my legs and be bleeding or maybe get a concussion or something like that , even though the white water on top isn't that bad but it's shallow and it's fast Right , whereas I've been in

class five rapids where if I were to , if I were to swim , yeah , I mean I'd get sucked underwater a couple of times , but I'm not going to get all scraped up and banged up in the same way . It's kind of it's kind of interesting

. You kind of learn how to deal with it . And then there's technically class six , which is usually something that hasn't been run . Usually , once it's been run , it's then bumped down to a five plus and there should probably be some sort of a rating for waterfalls , which are a totally different beast .

And there's some people that kayak and the biggest waterfall I've ever done is like the biggest single drop I've done is just about 35 , maybe 40 feet , and the highest that has been done by other kayakers is 189 feet , as you can imagine . You know , my 35 footer is actually probably a five plus rapid , right , but so is the 189 footer .

That doesn't really make sense . Plus plus plus , yeah , maybe you should just say a W before it . Right , it's a W , five plus , right , it's the hardest level of waterfall you can do anyway . But yeah , kayaking is . Kayaking is a really fun , a really fun sport that not a lot of people do because it's hard to get into .

Are they just there on a river or do they have a man-made thing , or how did that work ?

You go up kind of near reading kind of your mount shasta in that area and then it kind of goes south . You know about an hour and a half kind of on one lane roads along rivers and things like that , through the mountains and really beautiful drive . I really miss that drive . I wish I could .

I haven't done it in , you know , since COVID really , but I used to do it almost every year . It was kind of my annual pilgrimage to get out there . But they had the Salmon River , california Salmon River , different Idaho Salmon , and then they have another river called the Klamath river , which is a really big one .

That's been in the news actually a little bit lately because of some a bunch of dams that have been taken down that were kind of blamed a little bit , you know , for you know , governor Newsom and things like that , with the fires and water supplies and things like that really had nothing to do with the dams being taken down , but somebody wanted to cast blame

there , but there's a , a , an indigenous tribe there that you know really holds those waters sacred and they , they opened it back up all the way . I got rid of all the dams all the way , all the way through , so it's free flowing again now . But anyway , the klamath river is a big kind of warmer water , but big .

You know huge waves that just are all over the place and throw you all over the place and you feel like you're in the middle of a big maelstrom , whereas the salmon is more tight and rocks and precise moves and things , and so there's there's different types of , just like there's different types of skiing .

Right , you could like ski through trees and that's very tight , specific , you know make your line and you're going to end up , you know base planning with , you know hugging a tree , and then there's , you know , wide open , you know groomers and and there's powder skiing and things like that .

So there's different types of rivers as well , where some are tight as well , where some are tight and small , low volume . Some are tight and small with big volume and they push through hard , and then others are just huge , massive things that that have you know holes that can eat buses , and anyway it's , it's fun to .

Otter Bar is in a place where you have probably probably 30 to 40 runs like places . You can go to three-mile stretch here , seven-mile stretch here , nine-mile stretch here , whatever , within about an hour , and so you just go all up . So it's a perfect place to have beginners , and the best in the world can go there and get their money's worth .

But when you're in water and you're strapped in and you have this thing called a spray skirt that keeps the water out , so you're literally just kind of stuck in there and you can grab the spray skirt and you can rip it off and push yourself out and swim to the edge and drag your gear to the side .

But you can imagine if you're in a big rapid you don't want to do that , right ? I was talking a second ago about like a , you know , a class three rapid that's very fast . And , by the way , what I'm talking about is the Provo River right , bridal Veil Right under there . It's fast and swift and sharp and people die in there every year literally .

You know just people that get too close or they go say I'm going to swim that and you know bad things happen , or maybe a kid falls in and there's . There's tragedies here and there , but kayakers have to learn how to roll their boat over , back over , and it's called an Eskimo roll or just a roll , and it's a . It's kind of a weird move .

It took me three days to get it right . They started on Monday .

By Wednesday I figured it out right after hours and hours and hours of practicing and so also after many times , you know , flipping over in the river and having to do what I just said gather all my gear and get it to the side and pick up this huge heavy boat with water and try to empty it out , and it's just exhausting .

I'm like , oh my gosh , I have to do this one more time , right . And so most people stop before they get their role . Because , first of all , I've seen a lot of you have taught a lot of people to kayak too , right , I actually ran a kayak school while I was at BYU .

It was one of the things I did on the side and I had eight boats and I've just , you know , put up ads and take people and teach them how to kayak on the Provo river , right On the easy section where people enter to right .

But even there , you know when people flip over and I've told them okay , look , grab your spray skirt , grab this , handle yourself out and I'll help you . We'll get to the side . But they just , you know , they flip over and they're just flailing and they've forgotten everything I've taught them . And that would be me .

It's okay , right , there's nothing wrong with that , but , but it's scary . It's bottom line is it's scary to be stuck upside down in water . It's just scary . Once you get that , then you're not afraid of flipping , then you learn how to not flip . That's step three , right , but really you are going to flip when you're learning .

And if you can learn how to flip back up , then you can keep going . And I think we'll take a pause for a second here , because I think it's a good life lesson that I've really taught a lot . You're going to flip over in life . You absolutely are . I've done it way more times than most people probably . Over in life , you absolutely are .

I've done it way more times than most people probably , but some self-inflicted and some not . But when you flip over , you just got to get back up , right , you got to get back up , get back on the horse , whatever you're , whatever you want to call it , and keep going .

And when you've learned that you can flip over and then get back up and be okay and it's okay , then the world of kayaking really opens up .

Now when the teacher , the instructor , says , okay , I want you to , I want you to go behind that rock and catch that Eddie , and then I want you to zip across this big wave and try to catch this other Eddie over there by the , by the rock wall .

Well , when I , if I know I'm going to flip , doing those things like there's about eight edge changes I'm going to have to do , and if I , if I miss one of them , I'm over I'm going to be afraid to kind of go for it .

But if I know I'm going to be okay if I flip over and then get back up , now I can really push hard to go and try that new move . And then I nailed the move , ooh , and that feels really good . Right , it's like when you hit a good golf shot , you're just like , yes , I'm coming back tomorrow .

You know , getting to a point where you can have those successes is harder in kayaking than it is in something like golf or soccer or basketball or one of those less consequential things . Right , extreme sports . I wrote an article on that I published on LinkedIn . I don't know , or basketball or one of those less consequential things , right , extreme sports .

I wrote an article that I published on LinkedIn , I don't know , maybe a month ago , maybe two months ago , I'm not sure when it was , but it basically said that startups are like extreme sports and big companies are like team sports . Basketball , whatever right . If you mess up in an extreme sport like skydiving , you might die , right .

If you mess up in kayaking on something really big , you might die , right . If you mess up rock climbing you didn't put in some anchor right and your rope wasn't whatever you might die . Or , at the very least , maybe you won't die , but you might get injured pretty bad , right . Whereas if you mess up on the basketball court , whatever Right .

And so in a startup you're going to , you have maybe three people on your team early on and if one person messes up really bad , the company might be dead . It's gone , right . And yeah , you might be able to recover and go do something else . You know the people aren't actually going to die , but the company is gone .

Whereas for Microsoft , you take that shot and you miss . You know , maybe you get fired . Company's fine , company doesn't care , company goes on . So that team sport , the team will continue on you as an individual contributor , maybe even if you miss the shot . You're okay and you'll you know , they might not even fire you .

At worst case scenario they fire you , but it comes down to making , just being willing to push through some discomfort . If you can push through the discomfort , kayaking becomes one of the best sports on the planet .

I think for someone like me or someone who hasn't ever done , it's kind of like man , maybe not because it's , you know , yeah , it's scary to be upside down and not , you know , in water , not be able to breathe , like that's a scary feeling , it's a panicky feeling , and so when I watch them doing , you know , going up against , you know , the , the water , and

it's just amazing how they do that and they flip over like it's no problem for them . But obviously it takes practice . So took you a few days , sounds like when you first were doing this . You got that figured out and that got you hooked because then you could start , you know what it was .

If it's a strong wave and you're going for something big , right and you know , it kind of just whips you over and you're just like , ok , you know , but I'm nervous , I'm worried that's going to happen , because I've I've experienced oh my gosh , now I'm over and I'm cold and I can't breathe . I don't know what's going on .

And now I have to get to the side . In case , you know , one of the instructors doesn't come to me . There actually is a way that the instructor can come up and you put your hands on the side . It's called a T-rescue , right .

You actually you flip over and you roll into a ball like this , so you put your head kind , and which was really putting them up out of the water . Then you tap on the boat like this and then you rub your hands back and forth along the side of the boat , moving back and forth , waiting for the instructor's boat to touch your hand and you know cause ?

He's just going to come barreling in and try to T . You know T bone your boat so that you can , so that he can get to you quickly , so that you can get up and start breathing again . And you feel it and you go , oh , and then , boom , you can pop yourself up . Before you know how to roll , you can use another boat to help you .

And so I learned how to do that and that got a little bit better , especially if I knew , okay , we're practicing this , this is this spot .

We're going to go from here to this spot , to this spot , and you know , a lot of times on a river , you can actually , even though the river is moving down , there's rocks and boulders and banks and things , things called eddies , where the water is actually now going upstream Right , and so you can stop and work on different features and moves and learn how to

navigate around the river . We would stop at some places and I see , ok , there's nothing dangerous right here below me , it's easy water . If I flip upside down , I can hold my breath for 15 or 20 seconds , no big deal , I'm gonna wait for the instructor to get me . And if after 20 seconds I say you know what , I'm not feeling comfortable anymore .

I pop it and I get it no big deal . And so I learned that I could get up like that . And then I learned okay , now I'm , now I'm comfortable hanging out for 20 seconds upside down . By the way , today I don't like hanging upside down for 20 seconds .

I'm hitting rocks with my helmet , you know , and I'm usually in harder water , and so if I flip over , boom , I'm up in half a second . Lickety split as fast as I can now , but when you're learning and you're on calm , easy stuff you can .

So you just learn to get comfortable in uncomfortable situations , and that's really what happened throughout that week On Monday , the way that the instructor I actually later went on to be to attend their instructor classes where I learned how to be an autobar guide right , and I'd go in the early season when the water's huge and I was out of my class I felt ,

you know , that whole time there were so many good kayakers there there were like eight of us , but they were all better than me . At the beginning of the week they really hammer you hard hey , get your head down , get that hand down , get this down .

You know , as you go throughout the week you get more confident , more comfortable , and by Friday they're taught to say , hey , look , even if they're still making some of those mistakes , they've improved , and so just focus on the improvements . By the end of the week they should be getting

praises from you the whole way down . They should feel confident , they should do all this , and so that's just good coaching and good teaching etiquette . And they were very , very , very good at doing that , and so I probably . That's probably why I got tricked into loving it . I thought I was good , I thought it was awesome .

I was like I sucked at the beginning of the week because they told me how bad I was constantly and by the end of the week I was amazing and hey , good job . Oh my gosh , I can't believe you hit that move . That was so good . Look at that roll Boom , you're nailing it .

Your form is incredible , whatever you know , like all those things , and of course , that led me to come back the next year .

And then you know , you go 10 , 11 , 12 years to something like that , while kayaking in between and having all those fun misadventures by yourself and learning how to do it , navigating bigger things and , you know , meeting other kayakers that are going through similar progressions . Yeah , it just they . They , they got me , they got me hooked , they got you hooked .

One of the best places to kayak is up near Boise on the Payette Rivers . If you go up to Banks Idaho , which is about 45 minutes , 50 minutes from Boise , you have the hardest Class 5 whitewater down one channel you have on the South Fork .

You have Class 3 , class 4 whitewater and then down the main channel , both of those channels come together and it's called the main Payette and you have Class 3 whitewater . That's bigger and more fun . And you know , people raft it and all those things . People raft both channels . Well , actually they don't really do .

The North Fork , the North Fork , the five , is too dangerous for your average , for your average , joe . I've never done it . Too consequential , if I were to come out of my boat , even though I look at moves and I'm like I think I could make those moves right , like I'm pretty sure I could do it like I'm a good classified kayaker I can .

I'm actually 90 positive . I could go down it and nail it , but it's that 10 . If I decide to go down it and it messes me up , it's it's like sharp granite underneath there , like , and people just break their leg . It's's crazy stories on the North Fork , but they hold a huge championship there every year .

You know it's a good place but it's not for everybody . There's a certain level of consequence that I'm just not willing to tackle these days . Maybe it's because I'm older and I'm not as stupid as I was .

Honestly , the Bridal Veil section of the Provo River as a home run is primo . The only thing that it struggles with a little bit is its season is relatively short . Right , it can be on for three weeks , sometimes sometimes two weeks .

One year it was open for four months and I was just in heaven , I was there every day , just like crank out , I can go from top to bottom about six miles in I don't know 45 minutes , so I can get in a couple of laps and then you know , head home and I've , I've been gone for two hours , whatever . Really fun . So I like that .

I also love if you've ever heard of Joe's Valley , which is you head out towards price , just head up price canyon , and then you hit price and then you go South for about 45 minutes and you're there and Joe's Valley is actually a world-class rock climbing destination .

There happens to be a river that runs right down that Canyon out of the reservoir , out of Joe's Valley reservoir , and it is awesome , it's beautiful . So I love those places . Now , if you go outside of this , you know Utah , idaho area . I really love Otter Bar . I love the rivers , the California salmon , and they just obviously have a special place .

I love those rivers and I can literally , even though I haven't been there in six years , I could say , all right , let me take you down a run in my head . I'll draw it out for you and say , yeah , this is this rapid You're going to need to go here and there's a little spot you're going to try to hit .

I just know it's amazing how it sticks with you . But my favorite trip I've ever been on is in Mexico with one of the best kayakers in the world , a guy named Evan Garcia , and he put on basically a clinic kind of and he's like , hey , john , come down and again it's a small world . This guy is a world champion , like number one world champion .

You know extreme whitewater kayaking , like does big waterfalls , all these things and really really cool guy , amazing whitewater kayaker , and he's like yeah , come down to the clinic , come , you know , let me show you all the waterfalls and all the things I like to do and I'm like , all right , let's go . And it was .

It was a full week of class , five whitewaters , biggest whitewater trip I've ever done in my life and and I really felt like I had to step up my game to to do that .

But I did it with you know , almost one-on-one coaching type for a few minutes , and so I'm going to coach you for a week and then we'll we'll let you play for a minute or for you know , for five minutes during a game or something .

It's kind of like that , right , you get to , you get to be with the best of the best and have them show you how to do it , and then you get to . You know , enjoy that . So I really really love that .

I've got lots of in sports is like entrepreneurship article that I wrote actually revolves around my trip to Mexico , and so you can read that , see pictures and videos and fun stuff of what I did . So , anyway , love that and I really love actually the Ottawa river is a really fun one in Canada , ottawa , okay , and it's .

It's big water , right , which is different than what I normally hear . Provo is baby water right , whereas the Ottawa is just huge , huge , huge , wide rivers and massive waves and just huge rolling things that just like you throw you know you're going up a wave and you're like going up it for a while , really really fun .

And then I've actually rafted the Grand Canyon . I haven't kayaked it , I've really really wanted to rafted it twice and man , that is . That's some of the best whitewater and adventure there is on the planet . Doesn't really get much better than that .

waterfall in a kayak . I mean , that's gotta be for me .

In fact I'll just pull up a quick picture of it so you can kind of get it in your mind . But it's a two-tier waterfall .

It's actually 60 feet but you do like 20 , 25 feet and then 35 feet , right , it's like boom , and you go and then boom , right , and it's like boom and you go and then boom , right , and it's , and it's really , really a beautiful , a beautiful spot .

When the first time I went there , you you kayak kind of the , the river henry's fork , of the , of the snake , basically is what it is and there's a bunch of waterfalls kind of warm up things , and then you then you actually have to , you have to not repel , but you have to kind of use some ropes and climb over something and just kind of carefully scramble

down , because you can't do upper mesa falls , it's about a 200 foot waterfall that lands on rocks and it's not going to happen , and so you have to walk down that and then you and then you kind of hike along and you get back in the river .

Then you hike along for a minute past middle mesa falls and then you , uh , and you kind of walk around that one too , because it's also kind of weird , and then you get out and you just kind of walk up to the edge , you put your boat down on the edge .

So this is lower Mesa Falls , so if I can get it to center on the screen there , so it's about 65 feet . Like I said , you can see .

So , again , one of those things where I probably physically could do it , but it's just not worth it . If I'm a foot or two off and I hit that and I , you know , and I roll weird and you know I don't to . I don't want to hurt myself , right , nor base falls from a danger standpoint is relatively low . You need to be able to psych yourself up .

You need to be confident enough to understand , okay , when I hit the water , it's going to , it's going to hit me hard , and so you have to build a deal with that right , smacking you in the chest and in the face , and you got to put your body in the right place . You're very possibly going to roll over .

So you need to be able to get smacked in the face hard and stay , you know , calm and roll up and you're good , you did it right . That happens , and so I had worked up to the point where I thought I could do that and I remember getting to the edge and I'm like that's just like . This is crazy .

I can feel the feeling that I felt , just thinking about it . The cool thing about when you're kayaking with other people , especially when they've done it before you . You see them do it . I'm really really good at following someone . Like , if I see someone do it , I'm like I got this , like when I was in Mexico a side detour story when I was in Mexico .

There's this one rapid that's a little tiny chute . It goes down and then it smashes into a wall and shoots to the right and smashes into another one shoots to the left . It's called S turn and it's just a little tiny thing .

We walked up to it , we all got out and a few people said , yeah , I'm going to walk around this and I was like , yeah , I'm going to walk around this too . There's no way . Then I stood there and I watched six people do it and I was like I got this and I did it right , so I can be talked into it right Inside here , like no one .

By the way , the kayaking community is really , really cool . They don't pressure you . They want you to say I feel like , this is good . Nobody ever says , ah , you walked around that . I've never heard that be said ever . They're like I'm glad you walked around , that . Do you have a good , solid day ? Because you want to come away with a good experience .

You don't want to have that misadventure that turns you off from the sport because you're now terrified of smashing your face against a wall or something weird right now . Obviously , that doesn't mean go after something you're not ready for , but you want to . You know , if you can do it , then do it Right . So anyway , but no one's going to push you .

So back to Laura Mesa . I watched a couple other people do it and I'm like , okay , well , I'm the only one left here and I can either , you know , carry my boat back like six miles , or I can just follow them . So here we go , and I remember , sitting down in my kayak and I was just like , all right , it's prayer time .

And I was just just help me to be safe and make it down . No-transcript of push it , and you're off the edge right , the first one's about a 20 footer and you just kind of go off . Maybe it's like 23 feet , something like that . Anyway , so I go and I just kind of go off and boom , I'm like , hey , I'm fine , I'm awake .

And now all of a sudden , you know , the next one's right there . That's the big one , right , and I'm like I have nothing to do but just go for it . And so I'm just I'm going to go over and , boom , come back up and I'd roll up and I'd turn around . I'm like , yeah , you know , it's funny . I remember the hit being pretty hard .

I remember being like wow , that was more intense than I expected . That was my first big waterfall . I was just like that was a big hit , like I felt like a bus just kind of hit me right , but it was a soft water bus , you know . You know kind of like getting hit by a water balloon in the head , but like a hundred of them from all sides .

Anyway , we finished out the run , great day , high fives all around . I'm like , all right , guys , I'm , you know , they were camping for the night . I'm like I'm driving home , I'm heading back to Salt Lake , and so I actually drove from San , or let's see , where was I living at the time . Anyway , I think I was in .

I think kind of like my body's like , okay , you're safe now , and I'm just like man , that's just pretty sore . I wonder what that's from . Then I'm like , well , duh , apparently , you know you got to do it right , right . I mean it's , it's fun to watch . You know Red Bull videos and fun , crazy stuff and things .

It's very easy to be like , oh , it's cool , I want to do a 30 foot waterfall or a 50 foot or a 70 , but I can do that and , like soft , they just go , they roll up and they're all smiling and happy , but no it that people break ribs and teeth and hands and wrists and you know cause ? It's , it's gravity , still .

Gravity still works , even for kayakers , and gotta , you , gotta , do it right , right , if I were to do it again right now , I would you know , if I were right now on the edge I haven't kayaked in six months I would get in my boat right now and do it and I actually feel like I would do it better today than I did it back when I did it , I don't know

, eight years ago or so , whenever that was , because I've thought about it a lot . I actually , when I learned how to roll , the reason I learned how to roll was because I was told by one of the instructors . They said look , you got to do this motion and you got to put it's very , it's very counterintuitive motion .

You have to , like , put your ear down and you have to . You have to , like , get rid of all of the resistance in the role in order to do it . And so you have to practice this move . And he's like just do it like 20 or 30 times , but right before you go to bed , just lay in bed and just do the motion just over and over . Boom , like this , right .

And just while laying down in bed and I woke up the next morning I went out , nailed it , right . There's some psychology with that . You remember things better if you do it right before bed . Things like that , that anyway , that worked for me . That worked for me and I was able to do it .

But but I just visualizing a lot of the rivers and the things that have gone right or haven't gone right . I think about them over and over and over . I play them back in my head . When I did that waterfall , I didn't stay upright , which is okay , right , it's totally fine .

Like when you , when you plug a waterfall , the water is going to do what it's going to do with you . It's cool if you can manage to push out a little bit , manage to stay up , going over the edge , and you can . You know a lot of people will visualize things before they could do it .

But the first time the water hits you in in the face , right , you know , all bets are off . Right , it's this classic .

All right , let's kick to the edge here . Nice stroke there , boom . I , you know I can do it . I'm like , as I'm telling you that , I'm like in my mind , I I'm . I've seen the water and I've seen what my boat is doing Like . I have the ability to visualize that just because I've spent a lot of time focusing on it .

How does praying , how does calmness , peace , how does that play into any of this , or does it ? How does it ?

of the things that I , in my creations , that I try to portray and I try to share . Right , I try to set another way . I try to bring the spirit into people's lives through the things that I share . Hopefully , right , not a hundred percent of my content , but a lot of it , is going to have some angle of peace , right , oh , this is just so beautiful .

Or I hope you can feel what I'm feeling right now when I look at this . Or hey , let me play this music for you . What does it make you feel ? And hey , whatever , right , if I play a special musical number in church , right , I'm hoping that somebody in the audience is just going to be touched by the spirit and feel something and get an answer .

Or whatever , it is right , feel some love . But peace is so important . Even in the middle of falling down a waterfall , you need to have a clear mind and if you don't have peace while you're , you know , walking up to the waterfall or you're driving away from the waterfall , while you're in that moment , you don't want any distractions .

Now I will say , I will say this one thing , I'll give one , one little caveat there when you are on a river , in the middle of a rapid , you really aren't thinking about much other than that you get . You enter what many people call flow state , right , when your body just kind of takes over . Nothing else matters .

My taxes don't matter when I'm , when I'm approaching that lip , they don't matter at all . My fight that I had with someone doesn't matter . My whatever , you kind of it kind of all queers out a little bit Right .

But one of the things I've worked on , you know , every every year , at the beginning of my week at Otter Bar , they would say well , what do you want to work on this week ? Right , and that became an interesting question for me .

The longer I went because you know the second year , I'm like I really want to nail my role and I want to progress from class three to class four and I want to get good at this move and whatever . So I'd have very specific things . But then I get to where I'm comfortable in class four . I'm a good kayaker , I can tackle a five , whatever .

And then I got to where I'm comfortable on class five . So what do I work on now ? What am I supposed to do now ? What I wanted to work on was awareness in the chaos . That takes a lot of purposeful concentration on developing that skill .

I could show you pictures or video of me in the middle of just crazy stuff going on , but inside my head it's kind of like they talk about for a football player , right , like the game slows down , right , people say , oh , I got to college . I'm like , oh my gosh , it was so fast . They just run at me from everywhere .

They moved to the NFL and they're like , oh my gosh , everyone's so fast . And then you're there for a while and all of a sudden you're like , okay , the game has slowed down . I see things , I know what's going on . I see this and I understand out of the corner of my eye what's happening here and so I can move out of the pocket and whatever .

Now I say , okay , I'm going down this rapid called the MAW , m-a-w . The MAW , it's crazy and it's just big like crazy rapid and it's kind of one of the bigger ones that you do when you're you're just getting into class four and you're like , okay , this is , this is the meat of the . This is the crux of the day .

We got to get past this rapid and now I know it perfectly . I enter . I'm top left , eddie , and I'm going to then come out and I'm going to go . I'm going to just kind of zip down and do a little s turn behind another huge boulder in the middle . I'm going to cut over the to the , to the right side of the river .

I'm going to go down and there's going to be a huge boulder right here and there's a , there's a hole right here and there's this right here . And okay , if I move over here now , okay , now I can look over , I can see this because I know what's below me here .

So just Just learning how to understand to stand , you know , walk up next to a rapid and be like , okay , this matters , this matters , this matters , everything else I can figure out on the fly . Then I jump in the rapid and I'm like okay , I don't want to touch here , I do want to aim for this , here's the cool move or whatever it is Right .

And so now I'm in and I'll have to make decisions . Sometimes I'm like I'm not in the position for the cool move , so I'm not going to go for it , and I have to make that decision in point one seconds . Right , I'm going to like , oh , I can't take that stroke .

So I'm going to instead go this way and go there and I'm going to hit that , and if you take one second to make that decision , you can make mistakes Right . Getting into that flow state , being able to slow down , being able to understand what's going around in that chaos , is what I think is part of the fun and why I love it .

Slowing down that puzzle and figuring it out to where I can enjoy it and appreciate the chaos that's going on . It's organized chaos . It's predictable .

You know nailing it , figuring it out , and you know , going to college and failing my first semester , which I did , and then , you know , ended up graduating with all A's that last semester Amazing , right . And you know figuring out how to , how to deal with things .

And so maybe back to some of what I said in the beginning right , learning how to , how to hit something wrong and then regroup , get back up and say , all right , I'm going to , I'm going to keep going , right , I can roll and I can roll back up and I'm still okay .

And obviously there's a beautiful , you know , a beautiful thing that helps us get over those challenges , which is the savior . Right , savior understands what we've been through . Not only that , he died and went through the process to enable us to repent and to to do better and to try again .

You know , even if it's just , even if it wasn't something that we went and we sinned or whatever , maybe we just did something wrong , right , he understands that too . He can

help us learn how to you know , or at least give us the strength to get back up and try again and do something . Do something like that you know I've had . I've had a million challenges in my life that you know I got . I've had a million challenges in my life that you know I got sued a couple years ago .

That cost me a lot of money to try to defend and it was completely bogus . But they were accusing me of like horrible things that you know like if they happened to be true , I would have gone to jail for like 10 years Like crazy stuff Right , like fraud , wire fraud type stuff , and it was all bogus , it all got dismissed and all those things right .

But facing those things like man , it it like really works at you . You know , and you know anybody , if you , if you , if you raise capital and you do whatever you , people are going to come after you . Whether you're successful or not successful , they're going to come after you for more money and say they deserve more and whatever .

Like it's just part of the game and so I'm not , I'm not mad about that anymore , but at the time man that was , I had to , I had to like study people throughout history that were accused of things that clearly weren't you know were false , and how did they deal with that ? That public , you know you .

That public , you know people looking down on you or maybe just privately , like man . How do I deal with that ? Why , this isn't fair , like , why is this happening to me ? Like why , why , right , trying to answer those , why questions has been really , really tough , why are these challenges coming Right ? And I understand .

I , like you know , if I'm sitting on the other side and someone's telling me these things , I'm sitting on the other side and someone's telling me these things , I'm saying , look , you got to trust the process . You learn . You know , what am I supposed to learn here ? What you know , you become stronger through trials .

When everything's going great , you're not really learning . When you have trials , you become stronger , and so I've been able to , I've been able to work through those things and study lots of wonderful people , whether they're prophets or just great other people , or even the savior himself . How did he deal with ?

You know , he was accused of all kinds of things , right , and how did he deal with that ? How can I take a perfect approach to responding to this ? And did I nail it . No , I probably got an F on that , but you know . But I appreciate the trials , I appreciate the challenges , I appreciate when I roll upside down .

Kayaking is one of those things where you get immediate feedback . If you do it wrong , you're upside down right , or you know something like that . Or if you're , you know , if you're mountain biking , you know you do something weird . Boom , you know . Okay , now you're bleeding on your elbow and whatever . I appreciate those sports and extreme sports .

There's that immediate feedback , like okay , I did something wrong , now let me think about it and sometimes I won't right . There's a huge rapid down in Mexico called meat grinder and it lives up to its name . It's terrifying , one of the most terrifying rapids I've ever done and the first time I did it I got meat grinded .

I just got sucked right into this about a 30 , again , probably about a 35 foot drop , but all the water is just coming right into this like hole and I just went right down into the hole just washing machine for 10 , 12 seconds , then roll up and it was like like just so tired , it wears you out , it wears your muscles out really fast .

Fighting water , water always wins . In the long run . They will win right . Water never gives up and you will eventually so anyway . They will win right . Water never gives up and you will eventually so anyway . But you're just throwing you around and then finally I'm up and I'm just like , okay .

But then a couple of days later we came back and I'm like I'm going to get this right . And even though I had been washing machined , I knew what I had done wrong and I knew what I needed to try this time . And this time I over-corrected , went straight up and backwards down the same thing , you know anyway .

So I got meat grinded again twice in a row and now I want to go do it again so that I can get . I've only done it twice . It's hard to get in there . It's a crazy , epic adventure . Again , part of that article , if you want to , if you want to read about it , see a picture of it .

Challenges though they they're , they give you feedback , right , they teach you about yourself and they give you opportunities to grow . Ultimately , that's what , what . That's why we're here on earth . It's a test to see how we respond to the bad times and whether or not we stay faithful . Right , someone ? I studied a lot . I studied a lot was Job .

Job had everything go wrong , right , god , let him let Satan test Job . Everything go wrong , right God , let him let Satan test Job . Satan was sure he would give up and he didn't . God or Job . Job had a lot of questions . He asked why ? A lot of times , but he but he's . But he never said you know , I forsake thee . Right , he never gave up .

He never blamed God . He just asked why ? What am I supposed to learn here ? Right and man , if you

just keep asking that question and working hard and being faithful and doing everything you can , then you're going to get through . You're going to get through anything . You know , I've been I told you , I think before we started this call and I'm writing a book called time and all eternity and it's .

You know , I've got maybe 30 pages of outlines and I've got the whole first chapter written , things like that . So it's , I could probably knock it out in a month if I really , really dedicated myself and pushed everything else aside . But I have , you know , I don't know , probably ADD or something like that .

I like to do a lot of things , but that book , that book is about , you know , the idea behind it is . I want to do all these things and I don't have enough time on earth to do them , and so I have to figure out , you know , how am I going to spend my time wisely ? How am I going to figure it out ? And I've just been trying to figure out .

Okay , god , what do you want me to do with my life ? Like , what's the main thing ? Like , I'm really good at the piano and I compose and I write , I put out albums of peaceful music and I do videos and I get lots of followers and cool , right .

I also really love adventure and I also really , I actually really love building the software and being an entrepreneur and trying to put solutions into the world that can help with whatever , and , and I like doing all these things and I can keep going , right , I could .

There's about 10 things I want to do and I just can't do them all , and so I've been really praying a lot , saying what ? Please just tell me , right , that's what I want . But I got the answer , like two days ago , from President Uchtdorf or from Elder Uchtdorf .

He and his wife spoke to the young adults and I didn't watch that fireside I think it was Sunday , maybe Saturday , just a few days ago , but I saw a clip of it the next day that some one of these awesome you know church Instagram pages posts and he basically said that Joseph and and and crew were asking what should we do now ?

What should we do next , what should we do with this ? And he said his answer was it mattereth not do what you want . Figure it out right , go do what you want , like yes . Sometimes God is going to say like he did for my dad back in 1998 , he said I'm going to you were planning on moving to Utah . I'm going to detour you for three years .

I'm going to send you on a mission , then you can go to Utah . Right , and you got to be willing at the time when God says I need you for a minute to say yes , or maybe I need you for an apostle's lifetime , right , maybe I need you for 50 years .

And I think a lot of us would be willing to do that and we're kind of all looking for that , I think . I think a lot of times we're saying what should I do ? I want to do what you want me to do when God's saying no , I need you to grow and figure that out for yourself . It matter if not ?

And then he adds one more tag that's important Only be faithful , just do what you're supposed to be good , live all the principles , keep your covenants , do the things you know you're supposed to do . And it doesn't matter if you're a janitor or a CEO or a kayaker or a musician or an influencer or a homemaker or whatever a chicken tender , right .

Whatever the heck you want to do , do that thing , nuts , go big , be rich . Don't be rich . Go be the president , go be whatever you know . And now again , like I said , I do believe that some people are pushed in certain directions and I've .

I've asked myself many times like man , I've got this gift , I'm in the top one percent of one percent of pianists in the world . Should I go all in on that ? And I've definitely put more focus on that , probably over the last year . But I still feel poles towards the other things that I want to do .

But I've just felt an amazing piece over the last two or three days thinking about like it just boom from from elder Uchtdorf when he said that I was like it matters not .

supposed to do and I'll go that direction . Right , and I just said that , like blanks , it matter . If not , okay , fine . Oh my gosh , I all of a sudden feel energized to say I'm just gonna start doing stuff and and you know , elder could talk a little bit more , and other people have talked about a lot .

Right that the the two roads talk from elder holland . Right , where you know you go down this path and wait . You sent me down the wrong path . But you did it quickly and boom , there was a . There was an obstacle there . So I quickly knew I me down the wrong path . But you did it quickly and boom , there was a . There was an obstacle there .

So I quickly knew I went down the wrong path . Okay , we got to backtrack and now we're good on the right one , right , I do believe that . I believe that God will . You know , once we start going down a path , if we happen to choose poorly , he'll , he'll help us out . Yeah , for sure .

It's not like an Indiana Jones , where you drink the wrong cup and it's over , right , yeah , right , get up and go do something , and it matters not , and you're going to run into obstacles , you're going to hurt things , you're going to hurt yourself , you're going to you know whatever and fix those things .

Do better , work hard and as long as you follow that tag , only be faithful , be faithful , absolutely .

I'm like man , this guy's done everything and I'm in my mind too I've I kind of felt that overwhelmed , like he's done so much , and so I appreciate you sharing this , because it mattereth not only be faithful . I think that's a great lesson in everything in our adventures , in our lives , with our families being faithful . So I appreciate you sharing that .

Thank you so much for coming on Journey with Jake .

John , thank you again for inspiring all of us with your journey and the person you are . Guests like John are what make this podcast so special , and I want to take a moment to thank all of my past and future guests . Journey with Jake has led me to more friendships and connections than I ever could have imagined , and I'm truly grateful for that .

I'm also incredibly grateful to you for tuning in . With millions of podcasts out there , the fact that you take the time to listen means the world to me . If you enjoy the show , please consider leaving a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify . It is one of the best ways to help others discover Journey with Jake .

And , speaking of Journey with Jake , we have another fantastic guest coming your way next week to help others discover Journey with Jake . And speaking of Journey with Jake , we have another fantastic guest coming your way next week I had the pleasure of talking with Ross Alcorn , who discovered his passion for travel , especially helping others experience it .

That passion led to him start his own business and podcast , and I can't wait for you to hear his story . Remember , it's not always about the destination , as it is about the journey . Take care everybody .