Narcissist vs. Abuser: When the Dynamics Mirror Each Other and does the Difference Matter? with Licensed Psychotherapist, Chelsey Brooke Cole

Narcissists actually believe Being a lot or a little manipulative is necessary in social situations and in relationships and that's related to the fact that they see the world and other people as selfish and devious and potentially dangerous. Welcome to the Journey Beyond Divorce podcast, where we explore the many facets of complex divorce and invite you into a journey of healing and personal transformation that will radically change your divorce experience.

and set you up to be effective and feel empowered. I'm Karen McMahon, your host and founder of Journey Beyond Divorce. Let's dive in. Hello everyone, welcome back to another episode. Today we're talking about narcissists Versus abuser. When the dynamics mirror each other, does it matter? And what's the difference? With me today is Chelsea Brookhole. Let me set the stage and then I'll introduce her and we'll get started.

So when you're divorcing a high conflict partner, the behavior can look very similar, manipulation, gaslighting, control, chaos. It's why so many people immediately wonder, is my spouse a narcissist? But here's the real question. Does the distinction between an abuser and a narcissist actually matter when the impact on you feels the same?

In this conversation, Chelsea Brocole is a narcissistic abuse expert, the perfect person to be answering this question. And we're going to unpack what narcissistic abuse truly is how it overlaps with other abusive patterns and why understanding the difference can change the way you navigate your divorce and your healing. Most importantly, we're going to explore a path forward, how to protect yourself, how to stay steady, how to reclaim yourself of your sense of.

identity and self-worth, regardless of what we're titling your partner.

So you can read about Chelsea's background and experience and more about the episode in the show notes. We're gonna dive right in. Welcome, Chelsea. I'm so glad you're joining me today. Thank you. Yes, it's great to be here. Yeah. We were talking a little bit offline and I think that as I shared with you, it's such a common term, almost to the point of being overused. And so that has its own

danger. And so I'm hoping in today's episode you can help clarify the similarities, the difference, why it does matter and when it maybe doesn't matter. So let's start with that. That key question. How do you tell the difference between someone who is abusive and somebody who is a narcissistic abuser.

I think we have to start with trying to define narcissism because as you said, it is overused and often misused. And I totally agree with you that the overuse and misuse of these big buzzwords like narcissism and gaslighting is honestly a real slap in the face to real survivors because if everybody's a narcissist and everybody's dealing with a narcissist, then nobody is really a victim to it. So we do have to to start with even understanding what narcissism

Is what it's founded on and how it is so fundamentally different. Because I think for people who are not narcissistic, you can't even wrap your head around or begin to imagine how a narcissist functions throughout the world. That's what I see so many times when people first come to me, when clients come to me, when I talk to survivors. So much of our first work in therapy, in my community, like in my program, in my course, is helping people understand.

what narcissism is and how they are motivated by different things. They don't think the same way you do. They're not made up the same way that you are. Because a lot of times what people are doing is positively projecting. They're trying to understand this person based on who they are rather than on who the narcissist actually is. So I think we can even start with

foundation that is often overlooked and not talked about enough that narcissists are disagreeable. Now, not all people who are disagreeable are narcissistic, but all narcissists are disagreeable.

So what I mean by disagreeable is I'm talking about this personality trait of agreeableness. So if you're a survivor. you are likely an agreeable person because it is the most common trait among narcissistic abuse survivors is that we're agreeable. What does that mean?

It means that you believe in being modest. You don't believe in bragging. You believe in being generally humble. You believe in having direct, genuine conversations. You don't feel like there's a need to be manipulative in conversations. you see helping others as self-fulfillment, not self-sacrifice.

So giving to other people actually fills your cup, like you enjoy it. You enjoy investing in people, investing in relationships. You don't have to get something from somebody, like you are just a helpful person. You're sympathetic, you're empathetic, you're kind, you care about other people, you uh Want collaboration. That is your default in relationships and conversations is to find common ground, is to compromise. That is who you are if you're an agreeable person.

Now, narcissists are fundamentally different than that. They are disagreeable. They are the opposite of all of those things. I think if you just take away this, you're going to understand a whole lot about how narcissists think and function and what motivates them.

I want to say already this is such a different conversation than I've had in the past. So this is great. I love the way you just laid that foundation of the partner of a narcissist because having been in that type of relationship, I very much resonate with what you're saying. Right. And that's why I love to start here because yes, we can get into the weeds about narcissism and all that, but

I want you to have just a very practical takeaway. Like, how does this person think differently, function differently, behave differently, move differently in the world than I do? So that's you. You're a kind, agreeable, empathetic. person and you assume others are too. Actually, because you're agr an agreeable person, you assume that other people are. Like you see the world, like you

Uh most of the time you assume people mean well. You don't go out assuming people are out to get you and narcissistic. Now I understand after narcissistic abuse you might start you know feeling that way about the world. But your default, your general mindset is people mean well.

Narcissists are on the opposite end of that. So they're the opposite of everything that you are. They are not modest. They don't believe in being humble. They're fine bragging. They're fine. They actually are fine coming across arrogant. will talk about their accomplishments. Even if you're struggling, maybe you've lost their job, but they just got a promotion. They have no problem being like, I just got a promotion. Look at this. I got a raise. I got this and this.

With no regard for the fact like that you're struggling or perhaps you just lost your job or something difficult's going on. They actually believe that a certain amount of deception is necessary in relationships. So whereas you approach conversations, we it's so ingrained in us we take it for granted when you are gonna go have a conversation with somebody.

You want to try to have an open, genuine, honest, frank, sincere conversation. You assume the other person is too, or you at least hope that they are, but that's your intention. That's your come from. how you're approaching the conversation. Narcissists do not. They actually being a lot or a little manipulative is necessary in social situations and in relationships. And that's related to the fact that they see the world and other people as selfish and devious and potentially dangerous.

So whereas an agreeable person's default is to assume people mean well, to assume the best, to assume nobody's trying to manipulate you, no one wants chaos, right? Actually narcissists do, but we assume people mean well. And they're what if they say something, it's because they mean it and they're being genuine. Not so with narcissists. They actually believe deception is necessary because they believe you're out to get them because they're out to get you.

So it sounds like we're each projecting our own worldview. In a lot of ways we do. Yeah. Okay, so I want you to Dive a little deeper into disagreeable. So they're deceptive. They think you're they're you're out to get them. They're not being honest. Keep going. Yep. So they believe Deception is necessary in relationships and social situations. Whereas you are moved by human suffering, like you see somebody crying, you just feel that. Like this is why some of us

have a hard time even watching movies because our mirror neurons are activated, meaning, you know, we see somebody do something, our the same neurons fire as if we're doing that. You see somebody cry, you see somebody get upset in a movie and you're impacted by that. Narcissists are not greatly impacted by human suffering.

They might understand logically or conceptually why you're upset, why you had a bad day, why you are stressed. Doesn't mean that they care about it. They are not sympathetic or empathetic to your emotions, to what's going on with you. Also, as you know, you have that default of collaborating, wanting to communicate, you're more likely to actually

set aside your needs for what's best for the group. Like if this is what's good for the relationship or good whether it's at work or with your family or with your partner or whoever, you're likely to go, okay, well, I can make this work. What do you want? What do you guys want for dinner? Uh it's fine. I'll eat whatever. You know, just to the smallest thing to the big things, you are willing to just set your needs aside. Narcissists are more likely to bully and intimidate to get their way. So in

so many different ways. I mean, narcissists are just fundamentally different. They're operating from a different place than you are. And they don't have to try to. That's this what I think confuses people is they think how do narcissists get like that and how could they think that? And obviously they think I'm out to get them, but I'm not. Like let me just explain it to them. And they're just taking me the wrong way. If I could just find the right way to say it.

No, because you're dealing with somebody who fundamentally doesn't care. They don't care about what you have going on. They're not trying to collaborate. They're not trying to compromise with you. They're fine with you being upset as long as they get their way. As long as things are going the way that they want, then they're good with

I always think of it as I'm trying to wrap. my mind, my rationally wired mind around somebody who has a disordered way of looking at and engaging with the world. Does does that make sense? Is that is it's because I remember being there. Like I I'm divorced eighteen years ago, but I remember being like, if I could only I went to my therapist once and I was like, if I could just be clear and she was like, Karen, you're crystal clear.

There's no clearer that you could be. And I couldn't that was the bridge that I couldn't figure out. He's so smart. He was a very smart guy. He's so smart. If I'm clear enough, why not? And I think so many of my clients have had that same question.

Yes. I think pathological is probably the word that I would use as opposed to disorder, just because there's so much buzz around that too. Are the is it narcissistic personality disorder and they're not diagnosed, so are they a narcissist? Which there's a difference between narcissism as a personality trait. We'll get into that in a few minutes.

But yes, the way that you're thinking about it, that it's distorted thinking, that it's pathological. And what I mean by that is it is harmful and maladaptive. It's harmful to the person who's thinking that way because this is all if if anybody just stands back and looks at narcissists, they have constant chaos around them. They have difficult relationships. You know, as I'm sure that you've seen and I've seen and my clients have seen, like anywhere they go, it's just

They have friends for a short period of time and then they never talk to them at all. They're doing great at this and they have this amazing hobby and then it's like, nope, not doing that anymore. It's maladaptive, it's harmful for them, and also for the people around them. They have these constant difficulties in relationships.

So I want to I have a bunch of different questions I want to ask you. One is I want to go back to your description of a narcissist who's kind of braggy and what have you. So there are various titles of narcissists, and one is that that people always come to me is like, how is a covert narcissist different? And so can we just talk about the various flavors or shades or however you would describe them?

Yes. So I talk about six types of narcissists in my book, which is, as you were about to say, i if only I had known whatever it was when you were going through your divorce. That's the title of my book. If only I'd known, because that's such a common sentiment. for survivors, because if we knew this, like how differently we would have interacted. But yeah, the grandiose narcissist is that stereotypical narcissist. It's the one most people think of when they hear the term. It is

They're entitled, they're charismatic, they're charming, they're extroverted, they tend to be quite successful. Actually, you know, how many narcissists there are kind of depends on what room you're in. Because if you're in a C suite,

room with a bunch of C suite executives could be up to one in three. So it really just depends on, you know, where you're at. But that's that stereotypical narcissist. They're the life of the party. They can draw people to them'cause they're the center of attention. They can also be too much if you have a more sensitive temperament just like Back away. You're just too much for me. The what's often called the covert narcissist, which is really the vulnerable narcissist.

they look on the surface very opposite from a narcissist, or at least from that grandiose narcissist, because They often appear sullen, withdrawn, depressed, victimized. Even when they go to therapy, a lot of times the therapist is treating them for depression because that's what it looks like they have.

But depression can be quite treatable with therapy, medication, like whatever other, you know, interventions you use. But for vulnerable narcissists, what looks like depression doesn't get better because for the vulnerable narcissists, they actually gain supply, meaning the attention, validation, admiration that they want is covering by getting your pity, sympathy, and attention.

your help, your time, your resources, your finances. So whereas a grandiose narcissist pushes against that victimized kind of vulnerable stance. They don't want to be seen that way. They don't want your pity. Like they are above that. That's how grandiose narcissists would look at it. A vulnerable narcissist actually relishes in your sympathy, pity, attention.

So this type of narcissist, speak for myself here as well, can be very, I guess, helpers can be very vulnerable to the vulnerable narcissist. Because we just have such big hearts and we have empathy and we're more than willing to help others. And initially that's what you think you're doing with the vulnerable narcissist is helping them because they always have.

these sad sob stories about how somebody has done them wrong. Man, they would have been the CEO. They could have taken over the family business. If only, if only somebody would have helped them, if only somebody would have been there for them. If only somebody would have noticed their talent. So it's always this victimized, very defensive, very fragile, very hypersensitive to criticism kind of person.

Now there's four more types we can So I'm very curious. Let's run through them. So we got grandiose and vulnerable. We have a neglectful narcissist which is has the most understated idealized love bomb phase. A lot of times these are narcissists that very much go under the radar because they have all the core narcissistic traits.

They're entitled, they're validation seeking, they lack empathy, they are very rigid in their thinking, they are grandiose, but their grandiosity is different, it comes out different. Grandiose narcissists feel entitled to demand their way, neglectful narcissists feel entitled to ignore you. So these are the narcissists that you don't have a lot of

external conflict with necessarily. Like they're not coming at you. Grandiose narcissists can be very overpowering kind of personality. A neglectful narcissist, you feel like they don't even know you exist. You might live in a house with them and you feel like an absolute ghost. Ah, so I have had some clients and it's almost like this sense of Yeah. Right. You are just invisible, except when they need something from you.

So all narcissists see relationships in very transactional ways. It's what I can get from you. But the neglectful narcissist in particular uses people as products. And if they need you. You're off the shelf, they see you. Maybe if this is your partner, like they want sex, okay, I see you, then. And then when they're when they're done with that, back to completely ignoring you. Like their go to is the silent treatment. So when you're dealing with this type. You feel like you do not expect.

The self-righteous narcissist is like a mix of narcissism and OCD personality disorder, that anancastic personality disorder. Because they're not going to be able to do that. What was that word you just said? Anim casting? Yeah, it's like a it's a anoncastic personality style, which is basically a very like rigid it's another term for O C D obsessive compulsive disorder.

But OCD, there can also be obsessive compulsive personality disorder. So like when your whole personality is organized around this, these obsessive compulsive traits. But the self righteous narcissist is like a mix of narcissism and O C D personality disorder. So what I mean by that is they're very

morally rigid, obsessed with perfecting and being perfect in a certain area of their life. So when you meet a self righteous narcissist, especially if you've come from a very chaotic background, Or you've been around people who are very emotionally dysregulated, you might look at the self-righteous narcissist and think, wow, they really know how to be an adult.

They are so organized. They are so put together. They are so responsible. Their house is so clean. Like they are just miserly in the way that they do things. Their finances are in order. They are just they've got it all together. But that is actually how the self righteous narcissist gets supply. Yes.

For being seen, they are obsessed with being seen as right. They are the moral authority. They are the judge. So when you're with this type of narcissist, you feel like you're living in a glass house. So I've had a couple of clients who are divorcing asters who are on the spectrum. And that's interesting what you just described just landed solid for their experience. Right. And they Yeah, and that's exactly what kind of draws you in is because you think they are so good.

They are so moral. Like they would never, you know, do such, such, and such. They would never betray me. They would never, of the narcissistic type, self-righteous, are they least likely to cheat? Because they do often have that very moral rigid stance on something. Now they could be totally hiding a secret porn addiction. They could be an alcoholic. They're gonna have hypocrisy in their life. But

Because they're more obsessed with like that moral rigidity, they're less likely to cheat on you. But that doesn't mean they're not betraying you in all kinds of other ways. But they're not less likely to use the children as pawns, for instance. No, that's pretty no, that's pretty standard across all text.

Crosshold. Yeah. Okay, so we have the grandiose, the vulnerable, the neglectful, the self-righteous. This is so helpful. I appreciate this. So w what are five and six? Yes. So we have communal and malignant left. So communal narcissists. These are the philanthropists, humanitarians, and do-gooders of the world.

They but they aren't doing these things for the sake of doing good. They're doing it for the praise they expect to receive and feel entitled to receive because And if they don't get that praise that they want. LASH OUT Be antagonistic, be aggressive toward those closest to them. That's where all that their mask comes off essentially to the people that are closest to them. But when you're from afar and you see a communal narcissist, you see them as so generous.

So self-sacrificial, like saint like. And that's how they get their supply. They want to be viewed as good, as the most altruist. As the most generous. So they are, whether it's a big cause like world hunger and they're like volunteering or working for the nonprofit, or they're just at every PTO, at every bake sale, at everything in their community, whatever their spot is. they wanna get the most praise and attention for those good deeds.

But they're posting it on Instagram. They're making sure they look amazing when they volunteer on Saturday morning at the animal shelter. It's a very constructed image. It's not like they're if they've done something good, you're gonna know about it. You know, that they're gonna they're gonna let you know what their their right hand's gonna let them know what the left hand is doing. Like they're you're going to be aware of all the good things that they're doing. And then the malignant.

Yes. So the malignant narcissist is as we think of narcissism on that spectrum where you can be a little narcissistic to highly narcissistic, malignant narcissism is the top of the scale. Malignant narcissism is They are sadistic, they're vengeful, And by sadistic I mean they take pleasure in hurting you because they see your pain as proof of their power.

They are obsessed with control dominance. When you're divorcing this type of narcissist, when you have kids with this type of narcissist, they will take you to court and drag it out for months, years Because they can, because it makes them feel powerful just to harm you. They don't care how it impacts the kids.

They y these types of narcissists can look like grandiose narcissists initially, but the longer you're with them, like the more sinister it starts to feel. The grandiose narcissist is just that big old life of the party, but the malignant narcissist, you end up feeling scared of. Gosh, this is so helpful. First of all, I have one client who just wrapped up 15 years and Dark web, uh financial abuse, legal abuse. And so as a lay person, one of the things I wonder it's like,

When does it turn into sociopathic or like what is the because you're saying it's at the top of the spectrum? So is top of the spectrum then heading into something more Bye. I don't even know the right word to use. Psychopathy, basically. Yeah. Malignant narcissism is the last step on the train before psychopathy. And there's really just nuance, like fine detailed differences between the two. So it would be even kind of hard to sparse out even if you look at

Hair's psychopathy checklist, which is like that gold standard for psychopathy. So much of what's on there falls in the narcissism spectrum as well. So it gets a little dicey to try to sparse it out. But Typically, psychopaths are thought to be born, not made. So psychopaths. These are people, even as kids from a very young age, they are different. They their nervous systems are wired differently. And they might be hurting. And yeah, hurting animals setting fires, that's the the typical thing.

And So think of if you have a healthy functioning nervous system, let's say that you almost get in a wreck, like somebody almost rear ends you but they don't, but you had to slam on your brake.

Like your heart rate's pumping, or maybe you see the blue lights in the background, you're like, what'd I do? Even though you're on the speed limit. You just get that kind of rush and that adrenaline at first because your nervous system is functioning normally. For a psychopath, they are just cool calm collector. This is how they can be you get that.

The hair raised on the back of your neck, these people who are just like were watching these shows on TV, like a lot of those are psychopaths. Cause you're like, How could you be so calm? Like you had the dead body in the room and the police were in there and they were just Talking about the weather, talking about Christmas coming up, like they just have no There's no normal human emotion there. That's your psychopath. Now a malignant narcissist.

can look like that at times, but they actually are a little bit more vulnerable to experiencing shame as all narcissists are. That's part of the makeup of a narcissist is they have that shame rage cycle. So psychopaths just are very callous, very cold. You can't really shame them. They don't really care anything you say about them. Just does not faze them. A malignant narcissist you can push and poke and prod.

And eventually their shame will get triggered because they do still have that fragile ego. And then they're gonna rage at you and then they're gonna go on to be sadistic, but like they can be pushed to that point. Psychopaths can't.

Okay, one more question on the S. And then we're gonna take a break and talk about like the just the abuser. Um one of the things I've learned over my years is a lot of psychiatrists, psychologists have said how it's a little bit like pea soup. It's not like It's it's not like they're separate. So as you're describing all of these, and I'm thinking of a number of clients and even my own ex, behaviors bleed in. And so can you just

touch on what that is. So that people who are listening and going, I think my gal is a little bit of this, this, and this, or my guy is a little bit Please speak to that. Yeah, which is very common. That would be very typical to have a mixed type. Like you might hear this and go, Well, sometimes they can be really sadistic but but they're also very charming and but other times I see this.

So yes, it is very common for you to have a mixed type. It's it is very much like soup. It's not like an uh it's part of I think what makes Narcissism and the fact that this word is blown up so difficult for people because we like things in boxes and personality just isn't. Like For any of us. If I say, Well, who are you? and what exactly is that? and put you in this box in this column, it's like, Yeah, I'm this, but I'm also this. And so

For any of us it's hard to say for that we're not black or white, people are gray. So yes, it's it can be a mix. And to just add to that, maybe this will provide some clarity. Narcissism as a personality construct. includes both grandiose and vulnerable traits. So any narcissist at any time

can be showing grandiosity or vulnerability depending mainly on their level of narcissistic supply. So even the vulnerable narcissist, if you're like, yes, I've dealt with this. Like I had had a very vulnerable narcissistic partner. Most of the time, very victimized, very sullen, very like the world's out to get me, not a very grandiose, not very charming, not very characteristic.

But did he have moments of grandiosity? Sure. Did he have moments where he overestimated his abilities and he was entitled and he tried to put on a show? Yes. But overall He was very victimized and vulnerable. So you might find that A narcissist shows traits of grandiosity and traits of vulnerability. Don't let that confuse you'cause narcissist it's like

one side of it's like a coin with two sides, one's grandiose and one's vulnerable, but it's all narcissism. So very common for you to see like a mix of these. So just to summarize this part, and this has been so helpful, six different types, although they can bleed into each other a little bit, grandiose, vulnerable, neglectful, self-righteous.

Communal and malignant. After the break, I want to just have you do that this comparison now for somebody who's just who's abusive. They're definitely abusive, but they wouldn't necessarily fall into this. Divorce feels like an overwhelming, perfect storm as you navigate pain, fear, and confusion while struggling with unfamiliar legal procedures and the pressure to Make complex decisions that will impact the rest of your life.

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backslash JBD pod and grab your free first step guide today. Okay, so let's take a look at the abuser who's not necessarily on the narcissistic spectrum. And then I want to pivot to the impact and what we do about it. Well how would you describe an abusive person as different Um, or describe somebody who's not a narcissist but abusive. Like w how do we begin to understand the difference?

Yeah. So I think like I'm glad that we started where we started because it's important as you're thinking about Narcissism is it's a whole way that your personality is organized around. Like anybody might say at some point, ooh, that was a little bit unempathetic of me. That was narcissistic. No, not really. That was just

You're an agreeable person and you had an unempathetic moment. Or ooh, that was a little bit entitled, but like you catch yourself. It's not the way you live habitually. It's just a moment. That doesn't mean you're narcissistic, just if you have a moment of being entitled, being a little bit selfish, being a little bit unempathetic.

So for somebody who is Abusive not narcissistic, which is a which again I think is a little bit of a fine line because And I'd have to look at the research specifically for this, but if you have a somebody who is a pattern of being a domestic abuse or a domestic violence abuser, they've engaged in intimate partner violence. They have repeated relationships where they are dominated by that cycle of violence where there's the

the phase that the things are okay. Then there's the tension building, then there's an incident, then there's the honeymoon phase, like, oh I'm making up for it. I'm gonna change. But then it calls right back into the same cycle. If you've got somebody like that,

That's probably somebody who is narcissistically abusive. I think there are times when somebody who has a core personality trait like who they are is empathetic and they do want to assume the best and they do want to get along but they haven't been taught the skills or they have been just been severely traumatized themselves and they don't know how to regulate and so they lash out. or somebody who's in an active addiction, they're using substances.

But if they get treatment and if they as they get help and if they get in therapy, then they go and they wanna make amends, they wanna make things better, they learn how to regulate their emotions, they use healthy coping skills and they don't continue in those things. I think to me that's where I would draw the line. First of all, is there awareness about the behavior? Is there

Is there an attempt or a desire to make things better? Is there a willingness to go to therapy? Is there a willingness to take accountability? If you have those things, Then I think that there's hope to work with that and for that person to change. The problem with narcissists, like if it is truly just a narcissistic style, they lack those things.

So I'm gonna push back just a little bit and I'm curious what you would say about this. One of the thoughts that I have is if I have an individual who in intimate relationships shows abusive behavior. But then... doesn't show those same behaviors when out with friends, when working with colleagues, when dealing with a b but when it's intimate relationships it always happens. Or somebody who has

A a lack of emotional intelligence or emotional mature. Someone who was raised in a culture, I come from an Italian family, not this kind, but let's say it's that old world. The men are this way. So To me, it seems like there are so many other elements where people's behaviors are developed and they could be closed-minded, they could be immature, they could be like, yeah, it's not my problem, it's not my fault, but they don't actually fit.

the description that you gave. Can we just talk about that a little bit? Yeah, for sure. And there's there's definitely cultures, backgrounds. family style, like how you're used to communicating things, like so many and I think that is part of what makes it complicated and hard for people to sparse out. And then we get to how much does it really matter? Which is the next part of everything. Yeah. It's like...

You know, if you can't be a healthy version of yourself in this relationship, if you can't be in this relationship and not be abused, if they can't stop for whatever reason, whether they're narcissistic or whether it's from their family or The person experiencing the abuse is still experiencing abuse regardless of what you want to call it.

Yes. And I do think that is the biggest takeaway. Like whether it's like, oh, they're definitely a narcissist, no question about it, or I don't know, because there's these other factors to consider. At the end of the day, though, it doesn't matter what we call it. Abuse is abuse. And that's the part of the conversation that this is where I love to guide my clients to, which is we could name it, we could title it, we could analyze it, we could question it, we could d figure out why, but

It's none of that's changing it. So let's talk about what you experienced, the impact it's had on you. And I think so many of us, we walk away with like a crumbled self-identity, like severe self-doubt. really insecure, lost our voices. Like this I re I remember my words have always been like I was such a shell of myself. It was like I was emptied out. Yep, that is such a common sentiment, being a shell of a person. I think

That definitely speaks to the experiences of narcissistic abuse and in particular being gaslighted over time, which all narcissists gaslight. So just because of their makeup and who they are and Can you define gaslight? Yes. So gaslighting is attempting to make someone question their reality or sanity. When you are being gaslighted, you have this sense like you and this other person are living in two different worlds. You feel like the realities like cannot match up.

That is one huge takeaway because when you are in a healthy relationship or just dealing with a healthy, rational person. then you can agree to disagree. You can even say, Oh, well, this is my perspective. And they can say, well, here's my perspective. And you're like, oh, okay, well, that's why we had this miscommunication or misunderstanding. But when you're dealing with a narcissist who's gaslighting you, you're not having a miscommunication. You're being manipulated.

So it's very it's a very different Experience. And so for gaslighting to occur, it's not just a one-time thing either. It is a it's a process and a series. a series of steps. So there has to be some form of trust, familiarity, likability in the relationship. Somebody off the street who says, You're crazy. You don't know what you're talking about.

Okay, you have no reason to believe them. There's no prior relationship. There's no assumed authority like you might have for a therapist or a doctor or a lawyer. So there has to be that kind of familiarity or assumed authority with that person in order for them to be able to gaslight you. Then there is the piece of they are lying. They are saying something that's not true. They are denying reality. They are distorting facts. They are twisting the narrative. They are they love to

say that you're somebody you're not. They love to mislabel and relabel all of your intentions, your behaviors. is a huge way. That's I think that's the most common way narcissist gaslight is to make you think you're someone you're not. And do you think that that is This is a really

Key thing. Is it is it intentional? Like I know pathological liars lie to themselves first, which is why they sound so believable, because they completely believe themselves, because it's the first lie. Like, how does that play out with Narcissists or is it truly this conscious intentional or is it both I think it's both. I think it depends on the level of narcissist that you're dealing with. I think that we know narcissists know because they know when to turn it on and off.

So that's a really they're not yelling at their boss, but they're coming home to yell at you. So there is that ability to be so charming at the party, but then as soon as they get in the car, they're letting you have it. So they know because they know when to turn it on and off, which means they have to have some idea of how they're being perceived and what they're doing,'cause they know that's not socially acceptable.

And that's kind of the difference between a narcissist and a jerk, is a jerk is a jerk all the time. A narcissist is a selective jerk. I think that's a really important element that you just said. Narcissists are more Selective in what they're doing and win. I was gonna use the word strategic.

Yeah. Okay, so we've now talked about them much more than I ever choose to give give air to that. But that was vitally important and so informative. And so now I want you to speak to my men and women who are emerging from abusive and possibly often narcissistic. relationships, they're on the battlefield. So now it's not just that you're breaking up with someone. You're

splitting children. The whole world is telling you, like if you're a good parent, you're gonna have an amicable co parenting relationship. You're trying to figure out finances and making decisions and yet

They're not giving information, they're hiding information, they're twisting information. You're trying to keep the kids out of it and they're like they're saying they're child centric, they're showing the judge they're child centric, and yet those children are being torn apart and will be left bloody on the battlefield.

And you're trying to heal, you're trying to find yourself because you're about to enter the greatest negotiation of your life. Talk to us about how you would guide and encourage these individuals through this journey. I think it's... Like you were saying, people are encouraged to have an amicable divorce. Like you're gonna get that from other people. And oftentimes we think that ourselves too. We have the thought of I just wanna be a reasonable.

Oh, I have that all the time. Chelsea, I can't tell you how often people come to me and they're like Hi, I'm getting divorced. I want it to be amicable. And then they tell me about their marriage. And I always say, How goes the marriage? So goes the divorce. And they go, Oh, it's not going to be amicable. But it's this desire, again, it's that reasonable person who wants to have a reasonable divorce. And I think it's part of how we try to deal with grief, like to really accept

that this divorce isn't gonna go well is to accept who you're really dealing with. Which is to accept this is the person I married, this is the person I had kids with. Like and I think that's really hard. So I think what we're fighting against, perhaps even more than seeing them, is looking at ourselves and going, How did this How how did I get here? And the self-condemnation that can come with that. It's like you've been abused by them and now you're gonna start beating yourself up with a back.

And I do think it's important we get to that point. I had to do that in my own journey of how did I get here? But not from a place of self judgment, but curiosity and a willingness to look at what have I not healed that keeps putting me back in this relationship. I love that. Because that's really what it is. It's we're replaying something, trying to heal. And until we heal that, we're gonna keep finding the same person in a different body. Yes we are.

So... First it is important to start to accept that You can be reasonable on your side, but that person is not going to be reasonable. That is not you being cynical. That's not you being difficult or assuming the worst or any of those things that people are going to tell you. That is really you being realistic to tell.

If you want to stop beating your head against the wall, then you have to see what you're actually dealing with. So that's, yeah, again, not you being cynical, that's being realist. But how do you start healing? Because I think I think divorce and co-parenting is one of the most difficult, challenging things because we ask people to interact with the person who's harmed to them on a regular basis.

And the courts are so just emotionally stupid and they don't understand and they all say they're child-centric, but they're not. They're 50-50-centric is what they are. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's a rude awakening when people realize that for the most part, courts are not pro child, they're pro parental rights.

Which I understand, like parents do have rights. However, it's really unfortunate when instead of looking at the truly the child's best interest, because that's what everybody says the courts are for, they're gonna look at what's for the child's best interest. Mm, not really. They're gonna look at because they everything would be done very differently if it was truly for the child's best interest.

Yeah. 拜拜 It is really imperative that you heal from the relationship in order for you to navigate the divorce. well, to navigate co-parenting well, to know how to support your kids through this, because you are going to have to deal with and you're going to be asked to communicate with the person who hurt you, whether abuser or narcissistic or whatever. And for me.

One of the most important things is your children have to navigate this person for the rest of their lives until you're healthy and strong and you've developed. And I want to talk about what some of those coping mechanisms are, like healthy. How do you teach your children how to navigate this personality? And and that's so heartbreaking when your child's melting down and they really don't want to go because

It's so displeasing, but you have to send them. I think that's one of the most heartbreaking Yeah. Yeah. To feel like you have to send your child into a harmful situation. Because we wouldn't do that. If there was a bully at school, we would go talk to the teachers. We would go talk to the principal. But who do

Talk to about the fact they have a narcissistic parent. So it is very important that we do our own healing work. And like we were talking about, being that shell of a person and we're very typically disconnected from ourselves. At the end of this relationship. You don't know yourself. You don't really necessarily know if you trust yourself. You might have struggles with self worth, with self-esteem. So I think we have to start.

at the most basic foundational level of getting to know yourself again. And a lot of times people overlook the simple steps because you think that Narcissistic abuse hurts so much you think you need something really big to get over it. Like people are often like, But what's the one or two things I need to be focusing on? Like just give me the big things and I'll do them.

But the reality is healing is in the small steps because narcissistic abuse is like a thousand small cuts and every healing step you take is like putting a band-aid over one of those cuts.

You didn't get here overnight. You're not gonna get out of here overnight. But I also hope that that people hear that as hope because that means it's manageable. It's in the small step. consistently over time that you heal. It doesn't have to be a big thing. It doesn't have to be Something that's gonna take so much energy and so much time. Like you can do this today. You can do this multiple times throughout the day. And it's not gonna take a long time.

And but I mean it's like not gonna take a lot of your day. It's not gonna take a huge amount of energy, but these small steps that I will suggest. Can make a huge difference. You will be at a different place six months from now, a year from now, if you start doing this. So What do you have? Yes, the first thing I recommend is

Simply, well, asking yourself two questions throughout the day. You might put them on a sticky note, you might set them up as reminders on your phone, but one is just how am I slash is my body doing right now? This is a really good place to start with a body scan, starting from the top of your head to the tips of your toes. Imagine your body's going through a scanner. What am I noticing? Am I hungry, angry, anxious, lonely, tired? Is there heaviness in my chest? Does my head feel fuzzy?

Have I just what is going on? What is it what are what am I sensing? What am I feeling? And that is so powerful because what narcissists do to make you feel like a shell of a person is disconnect you from your very own body. To disconnect you from your mind, from your feelings, so you don't know what you think, you don't know what you need, you don't know what you like, you don't know what your preferences are. You feel like you don't know yourself at all at the end of these relationships.

Like that has been scooped out. The very act of slowing down not only helps you learn about yourself again, but it also does something very powerful, which is prove that you are worth checking in on. Because what narcissists do, they minimize you, they diminish you, they ignore your needs, they invalidate you, they treat you as if you don't matter.

A lot of times by the end of these relationships, you feel like you don't matter. You push yourself to the very end, push yourself to the back of the bus. You don't think about what you want, what you need until you are at a crisis point. So that a very simple, very doable step. How am I? How's my body doing right now? And then what do I need? And I don't mean what do I need to do? What's my to-do list? Oh yeah, I need to remember to do that.

I mean addressing something that you find with your check-in. Do I need to take a drink of water because I haven't drank anything all day? Do I need to get something to eat because I've just been on the go and I haven't even eaten anything all day? Do I need to get up and go outside? Because I've been sitting here at the desk for four or five hours and I'm like my body's very activated and I got all this energy and I'm feeling completely

either drained or just pent up right now. Like what can I do to take care of myself? Again, this also doesn't have to be big things. It can be I need to text a friend because I'm feeling really lonely and disconnected. Yeah. It's just that simple act of taking care of yourself that was doing a lot of things.

I I just want to comment on that. I think that of all of the questions I ask my clients, that one has caught so many. Like I haven't asked myself, nobody's asked me. I have no idea how to answer that. Just like, what do you need? What do you need? And just like dead silence. And so I think it's such an important one because it's it we lost it. We lost the ability to even think that way. Mm, that's so true. I could see that in my work as well. Cause we don't nobody's asking survivors that.

Aside from like a coach or a therapist or somebody that you're working with where you've designated that time for them to be there for you. Even sometimes friends who are well meaning are just like, Let's get your mind off of it. Let's just go out. Let's just forget about it. Let's just you don't need them anymore. They're just like trying to get you on and over it and like Yes. They're trying to help, but to really ask yourself and to have that space, like what do I need? Yeah. I love that.

It's a really profound question. It not only builds self worth, but it also adds to building agents, which is that psychological concept of what I do matters and what I do can make a difference in my life. That's also something that is very taken, that is stolen from us in narcissistic relationships, because narcissists You end up feeling like your world has been taken from you, like your world is very small. You don't have choices anymore.

Narcissists take away fundamentally and strategically your choices because it doesn't matter what you do, it doesn't matter what you say, nothing changes in the relationship. So then you think that means I can't communicate. I'm an awful communicator. Nothing I do matters. Like I can't say things right. I can't put the spoons upright. I can't. Put the dishes upright, whatever it is, they've criticized and diminished everything until you feel like Who cares? It doesn't matter what I do.

And in fact, you end up using that. Well, you know, I I I really didn't mess up dinner last night, or it like you actually start like. I am I am not perfect and you're drinking the Kool-Aid. Yes. So you've got I wanna stay on track here because we're gonna wrap up soon. So you have a couple of questions. The second one being you do the scan and then what do I need?

Um and I love these'cause they are they're very simple. They're things that you can do every day. And what else do you have on your list? Well I think what I would end with is also just get in the habit of getting to know yourself like you would a new friend. So we have a relationship with ourselves, but we often don't think about it that way. We just assume like

Yeah, I'm in my body. I kind of know myself, but we just don't even really think about it. Do you really, what kind of relationship do you have with yourself? Do you love yourself? Do you like yourself? Do you even know yourself? So those basic those two questions help. And also just getting curious about

Do you like what you're doing throughout the day and why or why not? Like when you get up in the morning and you whatever you eat for breakfast, did you like that? Or did you just grab it because it was the easiest thing? Do you like listening to music in the car on the way to work or do you prefer silence? Do you like your house temperature at 72 or 75?

Like just simple things. Do you like it and why did you like it? And if you didn't like it, if something was different, would you have liked it? And what that does Not only does it obviously build self-knowledge, but it helps you form into more an authentic person. And authenticity is the opposite of narcissism. So not only is it

going to be helpful for you just to live an authentic life and to know you and to know what you like and you don't like. But it is literally going to repel narcissists. Because narcissists cannot stand authentic people. Why is that? Because authentic people are not manipulable. When you know yourself and you are not easily open to being gaslit. when you know what you think and your values and your intentions and who you are as a person and the value you bring to a relationship.

And then the narcissist starts saying, That's not true. You're actually really difficult. Your friends don't even really like you and all the all these little nitpicking things they start doing. You're like Who is that like no? You set boundaries, you call them out, you walk away, you disengage, you do all the things that prevent a narcissist from manipulating you, and guess what? They're gonna get bored.

So it helps you not only in current relationships, but also just to prevent and repel future possible narcissistic relationships because they do not like people who are authentic because they can't get what they want from you, which is Supply, power, validation, all those things. It's almost as though as I become more self-loving and authentic.

My energy is such that they're not even in the same room with me. Like they're just like, this isn't that there's nothing for me in this room. Right. And so that's why I tell my clients, it's like as you heal and you really stand so firmly in who you are and you love yourself. There is no the appeal yeah that you had in the past to a narcissistic personality is just gone. They're like, nope, nope, I gotta go find somebody who will drink my Kool Aid.

And you can still maintain your agreeable personality. You know, I'm not a asking anybody to become disagreeable in any way. You can be uh empathetic, you can be kind, but you know where to give that. the kind of people who deserve that energy from you and the people who don't. And you know where to set boundaries and where not to and you know who you are and you're not easily open to somebody telling you who you are.

All of those th all of those things, you're so right. They literally repel narcissists.

Yeah. Chelsea, this has just been a brilliant conversation. I am so it was well worth the wait. Chelsea and I have been trying to do this for a very long time. So it's well worth the wait. Tell the listeners how they can find you and I know you have a I think you have a gift for them. I do. So I'm giving away my ebook for free to your audience. So I'm sure they'll find in the show notes exactly where to do that. If you resonate with this content and you just want to learn more about

Next step, so just how to go even deeper with things. I would say go to my website, Chelsea Brookcoal.com. There you can find more resources. Also sign up for my newsletter. It's a really great place I send out twice a month, just more free information, help you do a deep dive, practical strategies, and that's also where you can get access to my course, Rewired for Resilience, and all of those things coming up.

Beautiful. And the name of your book again is Is if only I'd known how to outspart narcissists, set guilt free boundaries, and create unshakable self worth. That's it. Anywhere books are sold. Beautiful. Beautiful. So all of that is in the show notes and I can't imagine this not resonating with most people. So reach out, get on Chelsea's list, check out her resources, and thank you so much for what you do in the world. Thank you for your you're so

clear and articulate and you just did such a beautiful job of illustrating what this personality is all about. And so I'm deeply grateful for you. Thank you. Thank you. I really appreciate it. I always want to take what I've been through and what my clients have been through and just if I can help one person. That makes it worth it. Well, I think it h helped a whole lot more than one on this one. So thank you. Yes. Thank you for having me.

And we'll be back again with another episode real soon. You have a beautiful day. Thanks for joining us on the Journey Beyond Divorce podcast. I hope you found guidance and encouragement to help you along your journey. If you like my podcast, please take a minute to subscribe. leave a review on iTunes. You can also visit us at jbddivorceupport.com.

Where our team of coaches support both men and women through our one-on-one coaching, group programs, online courses, and free resources. Stay tuned for our next episode, and I'll talk to you soon.