Inside the CIA’s Psychic Spy Program | Stargate

These are the original files from the CIA's Project Stargate. Top secret espionage program that was backed by the CIA called Stargate. Stargate. Stargate. Stargate is a uh military intelligence operation that lasted over two decades and it wanted to use remote viewing. So you're sitting in a room and you try to use psychic abilities. To gain military intelligence.

This is the program that lasted throughout the Cold War and immediately after. And I know what you're thinking. This is complete voodoo nonsense. This entire thing, including this video, is a psy-op. That's what I kind of suspected until I went through these archives, until I actually looked into this project. Because there are, again, these are the original documents. These are original hits, which I'm going to take you through that are incredible.

We're going to look at some of these documents together before I take you to discuss what all this means philosophically with the founder of these archives. He's a philosopher, he's a scholar of religion, and we're going to discuss. What kind of theory about the world, about ontology, about metaphysics is able to make sense of a world where remote viewing is possible? So Stargate ran all the way from the seventies. Um it was terminated in ninety five, and then it was declassified in ninety five.

So it's not like I was able to uh infiltrate the CIA headquarters and get these material. These are all publicly available. I'm sitting at Rice University right now. These are housed in what is called the archives of the impossible. They're available upon public request. Anyone can come and just see.

So this is how one of these remote viewing sessions worked. Okay, as as a leader of one of these sessions, you sit down with the remote viewer that was selected through the US Army, and you start with one of these worksheets. And here's what you do.

You provide an anonymized reference number to the target, which could be a military base, a location, And your remote viewer tries to psychically tap into the target and sketches out and records all kinds of sensory input he or she receives before analyzing it later. Which I know sounds really crazy, but wait till you see the results. I know you're dying to see some of the actual hits, some of the best examples of remote viewing, um, and that is found in box twelve folder three. The most

Awesome, terrifying, inexplicable examples coming out of these 20 years. Here's an example. This is the drawing. And this is what it was matched against. Okay. Here's another example. This is the drawing, okay, that these remote viewers did. And this is the target. And again,

This might not seem that crazy when you just look at it like this, but think about what's happening. The person is sitting in a dark room, kind of like this. They're being given no description whatsoever. And think about all the different kinds of terrain and infrastructure that could be on it. And they drop it. Okay, here's another crazy one. The Stanford Shopping Center. This is like a almost like a one-to-one match, right?

But not all of these um are just about physical locations. There was obviously a lot of uh attempted military uh usage of this technology as well. And here's a good example, right? Here is a nuclear material test site. And you're gonna hear why remote viewing later on when we talk to the the founder of the archives, why remote viewing has been so successful, especially at getting Intel related to nuclear intelligence. and the different kind of materialist, idealist theories that have to relate.

And remote viewing isn't always only draw me the picture of what a person would see if the person were in that place. Sometimes maps were given as well, like this tunnel system you see right here. So this is the match, this is the target, and this is the tunnel system that the remote viewer created that was later verified. A lot of the most inexplicable cases of remote viewing, not that any of this is easily explicable.

has to do with things that are hidden, such that a person who was there wouldn't be able to see it. Some of these are hidden trucks like you see here. Others are hidden under structures, like the famous submarine example. This is another example that kind of blew my mind when I was going through these archives. Again, think about the sheer amount of different kinds of terrain and infrastructure. And yet the match here is. Impossibly close.

And here's another good example that shows a important element of remote viewing, which is the temporality. Because here you have a specific moment where a rocket engine test was being performed and there was a white cloud. In the remote viewing drawing, there's also a white dust cloud, right? But the remote viewing temporality is not always simultaneous.

Sometimes remote viewers are able to see what a site looked like decades before, and sometimes even in the future, which we'll hear the founder of the archives talk about later in the interview.

So, why would the United States bother with this, right? This seems like a complete waste of taxpayer money. Over 20 million was sunken into this. It was because of the cold. And what's interesting is that during war, everyone's a pragmatist. No one worries about whether something is gonna make you sound silly. People care about what works.

And so defenders of remote viewing say, well, if it didn't work, would the US government keep doing it for 20 years, sinking over$20 million? And not only did the US government do this during the Cold War, but all the major powers, Soviet Union and China as well. So when we think Cold War, you know, we think spy movies, nukes flying left and right, we think advanced aircraft, but there was this secret psychic war of espionage and counter-espionage that was going on during the Cold War.

Okay, so I have on my hands right here, box three one. This is a report to the Joint Chief of Staff. Dated august nineteenth, nineteen eighty-one. What is it about? Summary. Report provides further information on recent activities in China in the area of extrasensory perception. This kind of espionage and counter-espionage was such a common worry that the president himself was given recommendations to not build certain missile programs.

Because they were worried that the Soviet Union had the capacity to sense those missile sites and therefore wasting all that money. This is a very rigorous program. It was run by physicists, and people wanted to make sure that they were getting actual hits. The reason is because of war. War forces us to do many innovations. We don't like to admit this these days, but it's often war that brings out some of the most important innovations in the most unbelievably short amount of time.

So before we talk with the founder of these archives, I want to spend some time talking about what all of this means, right? Because clearly, if this is true, which I suspect it is, or there's something here at least. There's real world advantages to be had. The world superpowers wouldn't have spent tens of millions of dollars, decades, top personnel, if there wasn't something here, right?

But that's not why I'm interested in this. And by the way, when I say something here, or when I say real-world edge, there are consultancy firms that use remote viewing for business applications. But that's not why I'm excited about it. The reason I'm excited about this is because it marks a very important point on my spiritual journey as a seeker, on my philosophical quest of trying to make sense of this world, to understand metaphysics and ontology on what the hell is actually going on.

Stargate is important, I think, because it was performed and operated by, like I said before, physicists. It was secular physicists, some of which, as you'll hear later on in the interview, remained materialists, by the way. Those are the people leading it. The Soviet Union, again, was involved in this. And of course, as you know, the Soviet Union were communists. The communists are materialized.

How did a materialist superpower give money and resources and credence to psychical research? That's one of the questions that the founder is going to help us answer. But this is why this is so exciting. I think when we want to critique a worldview, we must engage in imminent critique. Imminent critique is taking their assumptions on board and then finding internal contradictions. Okay, so here's an example of what not to do.

When I see spiritual religious people arguing against atheists, The worst kind of debate is the religious people are just quoting the scripture, the atheists are just assuming the scripture is wrong. Both are importing assumptions from their worldview. That is a lot less satisfying than assuming what the other person believes, the side you want to unpack believes, and showing how their worldview has imminent contradictions.

And that's what I think Stargate represents for science. It was conducted by empirical methods, again, secular scientists. These are things that were funded by secular governmental authorities. And so I think it has a lot more weight for me at least than testimonies, for example, from psychics, right? And so without further ado, let's go talk with the founder, who's again uh a great uh scholar of philosophy and religion, about what all of this means.

What are the predecessor movements to Stargate?'Cause obviously that this didn't just pop out of uh out of nowhere. And who is doing this type of work today after it uh the program was stopped? Again, we don't we don't know who's doing it today because again it was classified. So it could be going on right now. But I thought the CIA terminated this. Well That's what they say.

Yeah, I mean that's how intelligence works, right? I mean, you when you declassify something, you make it public, but when it's still going on and it's classified, it's not public. So I I don't know if it's going on. It may not be going on, Jonathan, but it it certainly might be. The truth is is that the paranormal has always been weapon. Mm-hmm. Black magic, blood magic, right? I mean w even ayahuasca when you

When you when you take a psychedelic substance or when you engage in a practice like this, you do it to to harm an enemy or to to kill a a an animal or to go to war often. It's it's not Always pretty. And that hence hence the phrase black magic. You know, most a lot of magic is intended for negative purpose. And this is one of the reasons um that it was condemned for for for millennia really, um, was because of this use. Th this human ability uh certainly has precedent. What's unique about

Project Stargate and what's unique about the remote viewing. Remote viewing was a scientific way of renaming what other cultures called clairvoyance or second seeing or second sight. Or I mean there are all kinds of of cultural Names for what this ability is. Right. The question is, why did the CIA terminate it? I mean, there was a nineteen ninety-five review, right, where it said there there was there was nothing that came out of that.

Wasted$20 million, maybe that's a psyop, right? Because it's a high that it's actually working. Yeah. So did it work and so why? Well, you know, the the answer that w that we we get a number of answers from the remote viewing community And one of them is you don't fund a program for twenty two years that doesn't work. But you also don't cancel a program that's giving you strong intel.

Well You cancel the the the story again from the from that community is that the re that was canceled largely for religious reasons. What, there was a Christian CIA director? There were there were very conservative Christians. I mean, this is this story. They were very conservative Christians in the the military and in the way the money was was was organized, and that they weren't denying the agency or the reality of the phenomenon, but they were equating it with deep. And so

They were actually worried about blood magic. Yeah. Yeah. Well they were they were concerned about spending government money on on demonic practices. That's the story. Again, I'm not ratifying that particular story, but that's clearly the narrative. And and the other narrative is again you don't I my own gut feeling is that remote viewing works. uh uh far more than it should have.

Um yes, there were failures, but there were also extraordinary hits. Um, and that what is is really special about remote viewing is that it's government and military response. The military doesn't care whether something's controversial, it cares if it works. Well but then it cared whether it was controversial whether Christians took it over. But my the point is is that There's a kind of brute pragmatism.

Yeah. And and and so I actually am very, very fond of of Project Stargate and remote viewing because it's a moment where the military and the government are basically affirming a practice that is being disconfirmed in other services. Okay, so much to unpack there. The first thing is the skeptical answer to why it's been funded twenty million dollars over Yeah, twenty two is twenty two. Usually good. Over twenty or so years, two decades.

is number one, that's peanuts in military budget. Number two, Cold War. And we're gonna talk about this. Yeah. Uh Soviet Union and China had their own programs. Yeah. And so they w this is cheap insurance for them, just in case just to understand that and just to

So so th there is a plausible argument for why the government would fund something without any you know, and and then you say, Well it's it's about to you know, this is how the the rockets that that that didn't work were funded. It's it's almost there, it's almost there, we're getting close and there might be some some good results here and there. Yeah. Uh so I'm not persuaded by those arguments. I

I think it's really interesting. I mean you basically you have a government funded program for twenty-two years that into psychical abilities that Worked more often than it should have. I mean, that's that's the bottom line for me. And and and and I it doesn't surprise me that it often didn't.

You know, there's this debate in the remote viewing community between training whether you can create a protocol that will basically affect or produce this result in almost anyone, or whether it's a function of Of Especially gifted people. Where does the literature lie? Like the results, where does it does it go training? Well the remote viewing program was clearly on the training side. Right. It was trying to create a protocol. I'm very suspicious of that.

I I think it's about special people. Right. I think I think it takes special circumstances to produce these these effects. But I think the effects are very are very uh real um but not Yeah. I'm a bit surprised that you are so positive on the Stargate program, given that given your own liberal tendencies. We we talked about how these mystical movements

they are undetermined politically. Yeah. Right. The New Age that's left clearly. Hitler had a mystical division. There's like a mystics department basically of of the Nazis. I thought you would be very worried about this uh governmental utilization uh uh weaponizing essentially. I I I I would have thought that you would be worried more more so than Well, it's not that it's not that I don't have moral concerns, it's that the paranormal has always been weaponized.

It's just that's what human beings do. I I just don't and what's unique about the Stargate materials is It's the government, it's physicists, it's Right. Yeah, it's like that to me is fascinating. So I guess I approach it more as a historian, uh, and am really interested in I I personally think, you know, as you know, I think basically uh the government and and the skeptical community basically gaslights people. Right. I think I think we're just being lied to.

I just think it's just we're being lied to. And and and they hold up fraud as which really exists, as the sort of an explanation for everything. It's just not. It's just not it's not true. Right. And and so your reading would be something like it this is probably continuing in some sense. They're letting out certain parts of the data, they're saying, hey guys, this actually didn't work. We're being gas.

That that's what that's what uh security clearances are about. They're whether it's about hiding something. Mm. So in the archives, are you doubtful of the authenticity of the materials? Because that could be like they could g be giving I mean, according to your narrative, they should be giving us duds, all the duds and or mo First of all, I know a lot of the people whose whose whose emails and whose whose texts and whose

Transcripts are in there. So I d I actually don't doubt their authenticity. Um but I don't speak for the government or speak for the military or intelligence community. So I d have no idea what's going on or Yeah, you know, that's where I just draw the line. I mean, r uh researchers work in archives, they know what's in the archives, but they don't they don't know what's not in the archives. Right, I see. Um

Other than remote viewing, um, Stargate had two mandates, right? It was remote viewing and it was also psychokinesis. Yeah. So remote viewing is sensing and psychokinesis is influencing. Psychokinesis did not work within Stargate. Right. They they c they couldn't create a protocol or a scientific study of psychokinesis. Again, it doesn't mean it's not doesn't happen, just means it did there was no science. Does psychokinesis happen in the wild? I think so.

What what has been one of the most compelling cases that you've come across? Um she's called the Gold Leaf Lady. Um she exuded um gold leaf from her her face and her arms. And it turns out it's fake gold, it's not real gold. Um we actually have the go actual gold in the in the archive. I mean the actual fake gold. Um it's it's from a um. Wait, sorry. So as whiskers, it comes out as whiskers or It emanated from her face and her arm.

Uh Stephen Browdy, who's a fan analytic philosopher, by the way, he he wrote about it in a book called The Gold Leaf Lady and other parapsychological investigations and And so th I think that's the most that's one of the most dramatic cases that we have in the archives of of certain psychokinesis. In other words, uh the mind For me, right. Yeah. Influencing matter.

The mind uh in this case uh creating matter but but psychokinesis doesn't have to be a a function of creation, it can be a function of of manipulating or influencing. Right. This is the force in Star Wars, basically, right? Basic again, I think there the force really exists. There's there's like a a psych psychic It's it's dramatized obviously in in the in the in the movies. Um Uh on the school leaf lady, I've this is the first time I'm hearing about this. Uh you you met her?

Or or I saw the gold leaf. When was she uh when was she born? When was she dying? No, that's a Steve Browdy question. I She I think she lived in Florida and I s maybe she's still alive. I mean I don't I don't know. Okay, I'll I'll have to and she just ex she can control the exuding of gold or She had a whole psychosocial reason and why why that happened. And um you you know, you can read the book. It's called the Gold Leaf. Might as tough.

Right. Which also might yeah, I I know we're we're we're gonna go with I think that. I mean It's weird. It's just you go down one rabbit hole after another, Jonathan. And and this, you know, this materialization effect is just just another rabbit hole. You wrote in a article on Stargate that the army specifically picked people who weren't believers, but psychically healthy, right? That seems to go against your broader thesis about trauma and how trauma is necessary to engender these paranormal.

Yeah, the army's not Jeff. Right. So right uh yes, but you've made that abundantly clearer. Th the challenge is they probably would have more success if they went for the exact opposite kind of. I think so. I think so. I th I th I th again I think it's I think it's human dependent. I think it's individual dependent. But again that's my own position and it's certainly not what the remote viewing program

They were again about creating a protocol and doing the science and trying to figure out how this thing works in an empirical or scientific way. That's why I was led by physicists. It was led by two physicists in the seventies and then it was led by Ed May in the eighties and nineties who's also a physicist.

You mentioned that uh nukes, UAPs, UFOs, and remote viewing, they they have some weird connection where uh something around nukes just get easier hits or something like that. What tell us about the the data there and what you make of that? So I think there's a lot of there's a lot of UFOs around nuclear sites because they're future humans and they're really concerned. the UFOs are future humans

Yeah. Yeah. I i if I were a future human I would be really concerned about two things that the present human Nucle nuclear energy and uh ecological. This goes back to your willing backward block universe, eternal recurrence thesis about time being certain. That makes sense to me in a terms of a block universe kind of temporal uh time travel uh model. Um but that's again, that's not that's not what the remote viewer viewing literature is suggesting.

So there's a connection between UFOs and nuke, certainly. But but what about remote viewing and those two things? Why is that connected? So the again this is a good thing. Your view, yeah. So there is this history where remote viewers are seeing UFO. And they're reporting UFO experiences in their in their remote viewing. And that's not that's not in the the hits or that's not in necessarily in what they're supposed to see, but that's what they see. And so that again doesn't surprise me.

Because I think once you open yourself up to these other channels, as it were, you're gonna you're gonna see all kinds of things. um including your phone. Um so I I think the UFO is somehow connected to to the remote viewing capacity. But again, I don't I don't claim to know. The mechanism, yeah. Um do you know anything about What things increase or decrease the accuracy? Like like like the type of person, the type of thing they do, the type of sight they see. So Ed May has a whole theory about

uh the physics of remote viewing. He what Ed thinks is that um Entropy basically increases the likelihood of of a remote viewing hit. In other words, a bomb going off creates a lot of entropy. And so you're much more likely to remote view it than than Something that has no entropy, you know, something that's just sitting there. And nuclear nuc nukes nuclear submarines and stuff would be a high high target. Hi, I I would think so. I think it'd be really

So so so that that's almost why it was Cold War, it was relevant, right? Like that because these were the I mean again, this is a theory. This is a this is an interpretation of what how remote viewing works in this model for for physics reasons, you know, for the you know, dimensions of space and time and entropy and matter. Um again, I I personally don't think so. I I I think it's human beings doing this. But maybe Ed's right? I don't know.

I was surprised to learn that uh Soviet Union and China had competing this is the this is a cold war story that they don't tell you. They had competing uh remote viewing parapsychology programs. Yeah. how were they different? What what happened to them? Again, I'm not Russian or Chinese, so I don't I don't know, but but again, it gives the lie to this um this gaslighting again that this doesn't happen, that this isn't part of

of the human human condition or the human experience. I just think it's it it does. And and of course the military is going to try to turn these these abilities uh into into weapons as it were. Um So it doesn't surprise me at all that the Soviets and the Chinese had these programs. And I know that the Chinese have a very different attitude towards.

what we now call psychical or paranormal abilities than we do. Um they don't have the the resistance, you know, that that I think Western um Secular people. Interesting. That would be my guess. And like the the take the s the Soviet case, I mean one of the things I do write about with the the Soviets is is they framed everything in materialist terms because of their Marxism and their their their materialism. So how so how how would they explain your remote viewing for for

I mean Ed Ed May, by the way, is a materialist too, and he's gonna come up with a a a physics explanation for why it happens and it involves entropy. So they're gonna So Sends some kind of signal to humans that can get picked up and Even something like psychoanalysis wasn't was prohibited in the Soviet Union because the unconscious wasn't something you could you know would appear on a I mean you you know May, right? Yeah. I'm sure you've teased him quite a bit and he

He teases me by the way. He teases me relentlessly about him being a materialist and me not being materialist. Yeah, I mean I I it's so it's such a weird position to be to believe in remote view. And and still i is that the common position within remote viewers that they're they're materialists or I don't know if there is a common position, but but Ed's position is is is really double, if I could speak speak for Ed. One is that Psy is absolutely real.

And the other is that it has a materialist explanation. So he is adamant that that remote viewers were successful in remote viewing, and he is adamant that it has some kind of physics explanation. And and I, you know, I honor both of those. I think those are really interesting. Right, but but but help me understand why you have hits beyond sophistical chance of you seeing something that's let's say non-radioactive. I s I saw some of these drawings. They're they're not all bombs blowing up.

What is the materialist explanation exactly? And why would you prefer that is my question. Yeah. Well you would prefer that because you were materialist. But that's what I'm trying to say. Like like Your reading of of May, why is he a materialist? Like uh of course you can make it coherent, right? You can you can make anything coherent.

Remote viewing is somehow a function of the way space and time and matter and energy are constructed. And we don't understand that yet. We don't have a model for that yet, but we know that these things actually happen. So there must be a model to explain why they Or let me put it this way: when you say materialists, that Ed is materialist, or just more broadly, materialism, what does that mean for you? One is physicalism, everything can be described by laws. Yeah. That's what I mean by it.

I see. Yeah, that there's there's a mathematical or physical explanation for everything that happens in the Right. And remote viewing does happen, but it has a a physicalist or or a material explanation. Right. Whereas you want to gravitate more towards the the consciousness, the will, the textual, the hermeneutic explanation. That model has a problem too. I'm not necessarily proposing non-local consciousness is another way that this is talked about a lot.

I just want us to talk about it. I think Ed has as much to say as as as Russell Targ on the non local consciousness. I I I I I want to entertain all of those models and ideas because I just I just don't think we know and I think that conversation is crucial. And I think the remote viewing situation is really crucial again because It's government. It's governmental.

And you have this conversation going on. It's it's not it's not tangential at all. They they they really do want to know what the world has to look like to produce these kinds of capacities.

Um even within the non-materialist theories uh of why this happens, there's a clairvoyant one and a precognitive one, right? Yeah. So can you can you explain that to the audience? So the pre the pr this is Eric Wargo. The the precognitive model is basically that the reason you get hit. The reason someone says sees a submarine base, say in in the Soviet Union, and draws it and it turns out it's very accurate and it's spot on, is because that remote viewer is later shown the target.

And what's actually happening is the remote viewer is precognizing being shown the target at a future date and is drawing the target. Okay, well there seems to be a very simple experiment one can run, which is you do remote viewing, you never show them targets, see if anyone gets anything right. Did-did-did-did-did-did that? Um So people would say yes, who do not have a precognitive model of of remote viewing, that r that precognition does actually not explain all the hits.

Because there are examples where I where I just said. Yeah. But again, I don't have those. I mean I couldn't tell you what those were. So precognition's off the table then, if the data if that's true. Right. If that's true, I actually I mean I actually I like Eric's model. I mean that that's a really good explanation of why remote viewing works.

is because uh th these people were shown and my own research with experiencers is that they were virtually always shown that what they saw in the precognitive dream. Right. And so it makes sense to me. The precognitive model makes complete sense. Except for the fact that there's a subset of hits that that that they weren't shown. If that's true.

right if if that's true and and and yeah i'm open to that too it's like okay that doesn't work And the clairvoyant model is you're just out of body consciousness or The clairvoyant model is the standard kind of remote viewing model is that the consciousness is somehow not locked into the body, it's it's non local, it's not

It's not in the physical body and it can see the submarine base or it can see the downplane or it it can see the swimming pool at a distance because it itself is not restricted to the the body in local space. It's not e and this is the this is the problem or the promise of remote viewing. It's not even Space, it's time too. They're seeing stuff. In the past. They're seeing stuff in the future. Interesting.

Interesting. And so it's like it gets way, way more complicated and way weirder, as they say, that than than people imagine very quickly. I'll get the details wrong, but so there was a remote viewer named Pat Price. and he saw a swimming pool in Palo Alto, and drew these um water tanks around it. And

Those water tanks don't exist around the swimming pool. But the swimming pool exists in Palo Alto. But it turns out Russell Tard found a photo from like forty, fifty years before the remote viewing that that there were water tanks around it. So what Price is actually drawing is some Right. No, but the question always I think the question Eric Orga would ask here is, well, was that photo shown to Pat Price in the future? Right.

So this is the these are the these are the questions you get into. But regardless of your answer, regardless of your of your interpretation, it's still Right. Way beyond. That's that's why I love it.

Why do you think, again, taking your kind of skeptical view towards intelligence, why why do you think they're they're they're sharing this? What what's your model there? Like they they don't have to share these things, right? I mean Kelly Chase would say this. I mean th this is a f friend and colleague of mine in We we don't need the government. We don't need anybody's permission to access People know

that UFOs are real because they experience them and they know clairvoyance is real. They know precognition is real. I mean, we have these experiences. And yes, there there may or may not be these government programs that are classified but we don't need them. And so I don't I don't get involved in the government programs. I don't yeah I don't seek them out in any way because I have so many experiencers Public and yeah.

It's just like, wow, I Kelly's right. She's absolutely right about this that we just we have an we have overwhelming evidence that this is so and we don't need to be told we're not children to be told by by senators or or the media that this is real or this is not real. Right, but but the question still stands, right, which is

What is your working model or or maybe you just haven't bothered to think about it? Like what is your working model for why they're disclosing this, why they're decl declassifying remote viewing? Is it is it its own Psyop? Is it is it just because is it c contributing to scholarly knowledge? Yeah, I think there's a lot of psyops there. Um I don't know where it is. I don't know what it is. Um

But I I think they're disclosing it because it's it's probably just too obvious to people. I I think uh you know, secrets can be hidden better if they're in public view. If they're all mixed up with a bunch of a bunch of psyops, a bunch of lies. Right. Because now you c people can just dis dismiss it. And it's very effective, by the way. If you if you say UFO, you know, in most most circles or most company, you're gonna get a lot of eye rolls and a lot of snickers.

That's been going on for seventy years. I see. And so that's very effective. Um which is kind of crazy, right? Because in the past few years the government basically came out and said, hey, there's non-human intelligence spacecraft of s of sort sorts, flying objects of sorts. The public hasn't reacted really. Right? Like like maybe some people have, but but I mean there are jokes about this. It's like aliens are real and we just go on. You know, we go on to meet your hammer girl.

It's like Jesus' second coming, right? He came, we don't really Yeah. But the be the people who are in this these communities think that it's the most significant thing that it's a it's a significant shift. The public or the people you know Until it impacts people's lives I don't I don't I don't see how it is relevant. All right. Thank you, Professor. Thank you. Thank you.

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