Conversations: Andrew Kern, Author and Proponent of Classical Education

You're listening to conversations with John Anderson, featuring Andrew K. Andrew Ke is the founder and President of Cersei Institute, and C of the lost tools of writing and classical education, the movement sweeping America. As a proponent of classical education, He's been instrumental in the founding of a number of schools and has consulted with well over 100 schools.

It's my great honor to have Andrew with me today to talk about something that's incredibly important for all of us who are invested in our future, which is our children and how they're equipped for the workplace, but even more importantly, the world. Phil land it's always nice to have an American guest, especially since we have around 300 American subscribers on on our show, Welcome to Australia and welcome here. Thank you.

And and let me say as an American what an honor it is to speak with with you as 1 who is for your entire life manifested your love for country, but not in a nationalist way, but in a love of country sort of way. That means a lot to me, and thank you for letting me participate in this discussion. Well, thank you for your kind remarks. Now we're talking education. It's Dear who is all,

often the debate pretty heated. I don't wanna get into the heated side today, I wanna say that I think as I have a lot of teachers, including, my own children, and children and more and my family, my wife. I wanna say as AAA grand grandparent, I wanna say somebody worried about country, that debate about education matters, we're not after gotcha moments. Right. We're into a discussion today about what can we learn about how

we've gone wrong. And a better model, and and you'll have quite a bit to say about that. The other thing that I'd want say is I am, I'll go to my grave deeply thankful for the impact. Mh but some of the teachers in my life 1 or 2 in particular had on me and in in 1 case, I was never in that person's classroom, but he was just a teacher at the school who took time and was an outstanding model. So this is not a session where we're trying

to get teachers so to speak. It's how we have a rational discussion about that it's not going well because it's not going well as it. It's not. No. So given that we're all worried that education seems to be in crisis. We assume it hasn't always been like this. Yeah. What has changed? And why are we now so worried about it? A board sweep so over the last hundred years, and then hone in. Post Covid in particular when it seems to have reached

a new level... Has hasn't that concern. I like that way of thinking of it about a hundred years. Mh. Because Historically, there's always been 3 mindset about education. You can find this in the new testament, the ancient Greeks and certainly in American history. And I would put it this way. There's always a traditional is as opposed to traditional, a traditional list element. There's always a relative est element, and then there's always an element that wants

something more something... Let's call it a philosophical as in the sense of love and wisdom. Mh. So if we go back to the new testament, let's say. I know this seems not relevant. But the ph is where traditional. Everything has to fit the tradition. The the the sad where relative is. Say were... Let's let's accept every culture, but we're hell us. But then the apostles come along, and they want wisdom, and the lord is teaching them

transcend wisdom. In a similar way to In the last hundred years, you can see those 3 things battling it out. I I can speak for America mostly. You can see these 3 things battling it out for the soul of America. If I broke it into history periods, you could actually say that until about 1800, United, American Education, would have been a Christian classical

education oriented toward Virtue and wisdom. From about 1800 to about 1900, it became a very patriotic, traditional education oriented toward being a good citizen being a good American. From 1900 to today, it became progressive, And what I mean here is specifically an ex a modern expression of re ism, where there is no grounding. There is no... Moral and intellectual foundation, but what we're trying to do is adapt to the world is

best we can. We're trying to survive a world that's trying to eat us. And I think that I think that's because within our souls, there's always those 3 impulses. There's always the impulse toward adapting to change, which we should do. There's always an impulse toward being absolutely fixed and un changing, which in a certain sense we should do. And then there's an imports impulse toward bringing those together into wisdom.

And I think in the last century an American education that re progressive mind has been dominant. And it's led to an increasing fragmentation, which I hope the pandemic was a trigger point to make everybody realize this isn't gonna work. Right? I think that there's an awareness now that we need something better. Throughout our whole culture, but certainly in our schools. So that's that's, I think the that's both all of human history and the last century in my best nutshell of an explanation.

For the benefit of listeners and watches, we had the chance to talk over months before we met here in Sydney. Mh. And I put it to you that perhaps it's the rate of change accelerated. I illustrated by saying we're here in Sydney. Yes. A very... Prestigious school that I'm aware of here, had an independent expert around 15 years ago, conduct a survey, amongst parents of what they wanted for their

children. Right? And out of a list of about 20, what came first, second and third writ large, Then daylight to the rest, centered on, I want my child to be well enough educated to get a very well paid and prestigious job. And then you drifted into 1 thing to do well it games. Right at the bottom. And I mean at the bottom, it was pretty amazing. Mh. Came things like character development, faith into interpersonal skills. Mh. I... It was pretty surprising stuff.

You made the observation that would have changed by. In the last 15 years. And maybe that's partly Covid so bring us up, do you think? I think it's very possible that if that if they did that survey again, it would be different. I think that Covid has has made people feel. Our Lord said that blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. I don't... I think that Covid has made us feel a little bit more poverty in our spirits, a little bit more sense of need.

A little bit more sense that just getting a job isn't isn't gonna do it anymore. That we can't just fit into the system as it exists because the system as it exists isn't nursing our souls. And I think for those reasons, the answers might be a little bit different. But I especially think that people under 25 years old, let's say, arbitrary somewhat age, but people under 25 years old, have a different set of hunger then then certainly than my generation. I'm 60. I was born at 63.

I'm sort of post baby boom, pre gen x. I my head came out, baby boom. My feet came out, Gen x. So I get both in a sense, but neither of those generations was was willing to go beyond the material for the transcend. They were hoping that the transcend values would be experienced in the material world. And what I mean is that real value and real meaning in life.

Could be found by success in in in in the employment world or in the in the professional world or in the career world, I think that the current generation is looking that in at that and saying no. That's not gonna do it for me. I'm a whole person. And I think they're feeling that. Not just thinking it. I think they're feeling that in a way that previous generations were too rich to have to feel if I can put it that way. They didn't need to feel it so they didn't. 2 things come to mind.

Firstly, you were kind enough to say you spoke more for your country than for us. We do know the English speaking Western countries on all educational trajectories are on remarkably, similar planes. This is true. America Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Britain, and they're all in deep trouble. There's no other way of putting it. The standards are slipping. Mh. A long longitudinal study. 1 of these things over many years conducted by the Oecd demonstrates that Australia's classroom behavior.

Is overhaul, and no 1 seems to wanna do anything about it. Although lord it is saying parents look for alternatives furiously. But there's another part of that that is really troubling. Fully served certainly for the children but we also know for anybody's worried about education. Levels of anxiety and depression through the roof. Right. Same trajectory in every country. Right. We know from people at Jonathan Height that a lot of it has to do with the impact of phone time, not play time.

Mh. Screens hitting the school program around 2011 12 in particular. Presumably these factors are also focusing attention on our young people and and and what we do educational and we'll come to your particular area of expertise is classic education in a moment. But this must be all reshaping the environment, the technologies the social technologies. Oh, no. The rights of the declining educational outcome. Right. Kids leaving university school and University not fit for the

workplace. Right. We hear that all the time in this country. Right? And also very anxious, you know, mental health problems. On a on a level we've never seen in earlier days. We we'll come back to mental health earlier but But surely, this is focusing our attention on what's happening. I believe so. I believe so. The the anxiety... 1 of the reasons I got into education back in the early nineties is because prior to that I'd had been a youth pastor. And I had to study youth culture a little bit.

And what I discovered was that in the eighties late eighties, 1 out of every 12 boys tried to commit suicide. That shook me to my core. What on Earth is causing 1 out of 12 chilled boys? To try to kill himself. 1 of the 1 of the kids in my youth group. In fact made a sort of ins your attempt, and it it was to get attention, and I understand that often and that is the case, but why? It's a horrific number. And you bring a baby boy in the world.

On those numbers, my master's isn't over my education writing have been a bit. But that means there's a 7 or 8 percent chance that you'll face a circumstance where that boil will try and his life There's almost no possibility that that anybody, any adult in the modern English speaking world doesn't know somebody who killed himself. Or somebody has tried to. You mentioned boys, in this country for long time boys and girls both tried, but boys will more often succeed. Right,

Right? Same in the states. Same in the states? Because because they're more aggressive, and stronger. Because you're stronger, you can be more effective. But I have read recently that the rate of success among girls yep. Is increasing. Yep. And what what girls tend to do more apparently is cutting themselves in self harm. And and I I don't know how you can take data points like suicide and self harm and turn them into actionable items. Mh. Because because that's not research, that's principle.

That's spirit. That's that's that's emptiness, and I don't know how you measure emptiness. But we have to be, again, I use the phrase poor and spirit because I think I'm finally beginning to understand it. We have to be poor in our spirits, less confident less cocky that we can just manage this problem. And I really... I genuinely believe that what we're experiencing is something like a management crisis.

That for about 400 years, the West has found management approaches bureaucratic approaches, administrative approaches by which they can solve problems throughout world... The world. But some of the problems that we solve then generate 10 more prop. Problems. And then we've thrown more management at them. I think it's very possible that we're hitting a a management crisis problems where we're having to admit that the things that are happening to us now that we're

doing to ourselves. Now aren't going to be solved through management aren't going to be solved through data. We're going to have to human us again. And I think that's an incredibly important moment for us. We might come to some definition terms in the market. Yeah. Yeah. I'm busting you get to your particular area. Mh. You're out here in Australia talking about classical education. But before we do, there's a couple of other things we've got to pick up

there. What you just described this sort of management if you you're like, If I hear what you're saying correctly. We've had a couple of generations of saying the great secret to raising children is to raise their self confidence to make sure. This cure themselves. Mh. The center of the universe. Yeah. Find God within. Yeah. You're saying that, that doesn't work We're not big enough to fulfill that role. And a more humble approach. You're right. Might be more useful.

I think him much is understand good idea. In fact, I'm not gonna digress on this too far, but I'll tell you that the greatest regret in my entire life is that now that I'm 60 years old, I've lived enough that there are traces of humility beginning to creep into me. But I would give anything to go back to being 30, 35 years old and a father of 5 and be humble. I would give anything. To be able to be a humble young father.

Humility is everything when it comes to... Well humble yourself in the side of the Lord and he will lift you up. And what we're missing more than anything is that sense of humility and reverence before before our children. We don't think highly enough of our children. We think that the main reason they're in this world is so that they can grow up and get a job. We don't see their glory. Culturally speaking, but even in the Christian circles, We don't adequately see what it means to

be the image of God. We don't see the glory of that child. Except there's 1 moment. It seems like when everybody sees it. And that's when the mom, the mother is holding the baby on her lap or in her womb on her on her chest and gazing on the baby's eyes everybody is drawn to that moment because that's the moment that gives birth the civilization, and there's a humility and an and and a an a radian to that moment,

a radian of glory. If we could capture that humility and that rec then that child wouldn't need to be told you have to find the God with him because he wouldn't be so frightened. He wouldn't be so empty that he needs these artificial. Made up categories that that that are just sort of forgive me, they can mean something. But generally speaking they're just they're just words that we use to make them feel better. As if we're trying to manage their soul.

Right? That great thing Serious Lewis said something to the affected that. Pride comes before all great falls. The opposite of pride is humility pursued with all your mind. Right. And the minute you think you're making progress you'll know you're not. Right? It's a bit of an end pursuit. I know what you mean. I really do. You know, I think all of the moments when I've learned something of been when I've got off the high horse. Right. But I don't think we teach our

kids that. And I think the risk is too great in our culture because because the the structures of society require that you be able to impress. When you go to a job interview. You're not taught to be humble. You're not to talk to talk about your limits. You're taught... You might be saying, well, what are you weaknesses, you know, that sort of thing. And then you're taught your coach. On how to talk about your weaknesses and still look good. Right? But but to be genuinely humble in our culture,

the risk is too great. It's but it's a risk we have to take. I once employed quite a senior person and my office precisely because he told me he had doubts about some of the things he thought he could do. That is so wonderful. And we need to accept that again. Not not a not a, you know, not a forgive me, but a carte doubt that's an arrogant doubt that refuses to accept the possibility of knowing. But a humility, a doubt that I am fit to do what I'm being called to do on my

own. We need each other so much. We need we need grace to work through us so much, but it won't unless we're humble and and forgive me, I'm digress from kind of the point except maybe that is the point, I don't know. Well, I've wanted to get to your field of expertise. And apparently, classical education is spreading across America very rapidly. I've interested in that. What is classic

education? Why should we understand what classic education is in an age when we've been pretty concerned about results. Well right. It's the education that gives the real results. I would I would offer you... I would offer you, a context, and then a definition and then 4 elements if I can put it that way. The context is this. I've been involved in the in the classical education movement the United States since 19 93.

And so I started a school in Green Bay Wisconsin Providence Academy in the and it's still going by the mercy of God not at all because of me. The the initial discovery I made was that having started a school, I didn't know what I had just on. And so I said, what have I done? What is classical education? I took some courses at college, studied the history of of classical education researched it very deeply within independent studies. I'd... I've done everything I can to understand

the history of classical education. But have I've also written about what's happening in especially in America, but what's happening under the the mon of classical education, And this is this is what I've concluded from those 2 if we think of it as a vertical in a horizontal. This is what I think is the the what seems to be more or less universal in people's understanding of classical education. The definition of it I would propose is the... It's the cultivation of Wisdom and virtue.

Mh. By nourishing the soul on the true of the good and the beautiful. Right? So if I say it's a cultivation of wisdom and virtue that can sound very distant and, you know, h whatever. But how do you do that? The And the answer to that question is you nourish the soul on the true of the good and the beautiful. And I wanna just grab onto that phrase, nourish the soul first. Because modern education tends at best to defer to the word soul but not to believe in and study what the soul is.

And so we don't nourish the soul largely because we don't believe in it. I think it was John Lock. We said the soul is a needless hypothesis. We we seem to have embraced that. Mh. Because the soul is hard to measure. Right? It's annoying. It's free. It's organic. But what does it feed on? I think everybody knows the answer to that question. If you grew up in a in a a community that lies all the time, it doesn't make you healthy.

If you grow up in accrual community where people are bad in whatever, different variety of bad, you don't grow up healthy. If you go up in a situation where it's ugly where everything's in discord where it's not beautiful. You don't grow healthy. What the soul is nourished by is the true, the good and the beautiful.

And maybe I can't give all kinds of detailed philosophical explanations of everything that means, But if you orient yourself towards feeding your child's soul on the true the good and the beautiful, your love will guide you, and you'll be able to do it. And that's what classical education is. It's the cultivation of wisdom and virtue, by nourishing the soul on the true of the good and the beautiful.

I would add that for the Christian, it's not an anti of classical, it's the fulfillment of classical. So as a Christian, what I believe is it's the cult motivation of wisdom and virtue by nourishing the soul on the true, the good and the beautiful, but to what end. So that in Christ, the that child in my classroom or that student, that child in my home or that student in the classroom is better able to know god, to glorify God and to enjoy him forever.

That's what I believe Christian classical education is Now there's 4 elements. I said, that's the abstract definition, But there's 4 elements of it, and I'm gonna use a single word that then needs to be unpack a little bit for each of the 4. The first word is is logo cent. K What I mean by logo sent is that there is a logo, A principle by which... Things by by which things are held together. Mh. Like a son... The sun in the solar system is the the the the logos of the solar system.

There is a principle that explains everything. That's the logos. Because of that, the world that we live in is know,

you can know the truth about it. Not only can we know the truth about the world, but you and I can talk about it to each other, which, I mean, if you just stay dream about that thought for a moment, that what's happening is we talk to each other is that ideas at least and maybe even truths that are in my soul, I can encode them into sounds that vibrate the air and they fly across the air to your ear, and then they go into your brain and you decode them. You can actually understand

if I'm being at all effective. You can actually understand what I'm saying. This is to me this is 1 of the most mind blowing concepts anybody ever ever encountered. So the world that we live in is know. It makes sense. We can communicate about it, and we can share it together, and enjoy it together and and and live in it. So effectively because we believe that it makes sense and that there's a principle that holds it together.

Now the inch ancient Greeks believed in the logos, but they didn't know what it was. John came along and said, saint John said, I'll tell you what it is. NRK in the beginning. Actually, Ann cake could also be as the first principle. Anarchy r k in H logos in the beginning was the word in the beginning was the logos, and the logos became flash. So logo sent is the first principle of classical

education. The second 1 is... But I just 1 thought that comes out of that though if if we're saying there's order, is that not the basis of modern science as well? Oh, absolutely. Yes. Absolutely. Yes. There's no... You often get this line, you hear it all the times. It's very tried. Somehow rather faith and and and science. So at logger, they don't fit they're inc incompatible. We're as science as we understand it has its genes and the idea that is order is observable order observable reality.

Almost every significant scientific development from this from the sixteenth century to the twentieth, almost all of them were accomplished by Christians, many of them by monk genetic theory. The the so many things. When we get to the nineteenth century country to they popular The. To the fantasy. Mh. And that's a propaganda

move. In the nineteenth century, late in the nineteenth century, largely after Darwin Thomas Huxley and other people in his orbit took the name science and it to what we would have called previously the natural sciences. And they said the only way you can ever know anything ever is by using natural science. And that was a propaganda move that for the most part, the English speaking, word world fell for. And and there's no reason to. We we

can look at the history. We can look at the facts of history if anybody wants a book on this, Peter Harrison in Australia, I think from Darwin, but he wrote... He gave speeches at Oxford on this. He wrote a book called, Please forgive me I don't remember the title of the book. But it's about the relate... Something like the relationship of science and religion, and he goes into the whole history of it. It's a myth that there's a conflict between religion and science.

I contend that the beginning of science is when Moses sees the burning bush, and he says, whom shall I say has sent me. And the Lord says I'm not an illusion like the Hip autonomous God. I'm not an illusion like the Egyptian pagan, Nile God. I am the 1 who is I am. And because of that, the world that you live in is the world I spoken to existence, and the logo sits in my mind, in in your mind as Moses is also in the world. And therefore, you can know the world that you live in.

Science is almost entirely conceptually a Christian concept almost entirely. Now there's been it, you know, N nietzsche argued that that that Christianity undercut itself by putting so much emphasis on truth. And and so then the science is undercut Christianity, but that's assuming an awful lot on nietzsche part. Nietzsche also said, we will not be rid of God until we are rid of grammar. Okay. And I think that's a very profound statement because grammar implies an order to the universe.

And it implies that our minds can be ordered in a manner similar to the order of the universe so that we can know it. And needs you wants to say we can't know it. So that's your foundation 1 logo. Yes. There is reality. There are, great truths. And we have this... I haven't stop thinking about it, but how extraordinary it is at we can actually understand broadly what they asking. Communicate. And the fact that we can communicate so much, So we do understand to be true.

Itself surely points to truth because within think agriculture and says there's no truth that's all relative. Right. And consequently, you get theories that become dominant in the intellectual realm that say all language. Is violence, not only is all language violence, but all silence is violence. And so whether you talk or whether you're silent, you're violent because we are in that view of the world, we are by nature, violent people, only tact fully being peaceful, so that we can survive.

That's the kind of world that the modern child grows up in that mental world. Negative. It's horrifying negative. It's it's it's a world that you... It's a world that the ground is... Let me let me develop this thought if I may for a moment. It's a world in which the ground under you is always shifting. It's as if you're standing in a in a in a desert. The outback or the Sahara desert, except that instead of it being a rock underneath your feet, it's like the waves of an ocean.

And it and it's cross It's cross waving. Right? So it's always chaos. Always unpredictable. What do you... This is my question for for for for for the practical side of that. If you live in a mental world, the real world isn't like that, but it seems like it. So you can create a mental world that that's kind of that is that kind of chaos. If you do, if that's what you expect the world to be like? What kind of habits did you do you develop in your own thoughts?

What kind of habits do you develop in your own soul? The answer to that is probably modern education. Right? But if you believe in a world that is meaningful underneath it all, Yes, it seems some times very painful. It hurts us. It's trying to eat us. It's trying to destroy it sometimes. But underlying all of that is meaning and and truth, and and perm it is the beauty of a sunset, the beauty of a sunrise rise, the beauty of the ocean shining of of of the sun shining on the ocean.

Anybody who's ever been on a boat at nighttime and seeing the moon rising knows that this world is fundamentally includes if it isn't essentially beautiful. And so what do you do, what kind of habits do you develop if you believe in that kind of world. I would contend that those are the 2 approaches to education today.

You either leave you either live in nih chaos and the goal is to survive and to get what's yours as best you can, or you live in a world that's that's ultimately, though, though immediately difficult, it's ultimately meaningful and harmonious, and it's 1 that we should share with each other. And we should enjoy together, and we should spend more time. I mean, look, we all say, stop and smell the roses.

Right? We should be spending metaphorically a lot more time smelling roses and watching sunrise and sunsets. Because the habit of enjoying the gifts of god. Nourish is our soul because it's true good and beautiful. Those are our options I believe in the modern world. We've opted for this this... We have at the government level all around the English speaking world. We've opted for an education that is a survival attempt chaos. It's not logo centric. And that leads to the second element,

which is human. Alright. To it. Log, human? Yes. And it's interesting. We've better to define human. We Right. Because because because a lot of people when they hear human is, and I don't blame them. What they hear secular human is atheism. I'm not talking about human in that sense. I'm talking about human more like its original sense, which was a Christian concept. The renaissance concept of human or even the ci.

Human is the idea that you and I being humans have been given certain faculties by our creator. And those faculties were given to us so that we could know him. And so that we could steward the creation, and so that we could love each other. That's why we have these raw faculties. Now people are saying, what do you talk about faculty? What I mean is we can use words.

Right? There's no other creature in all of creation that can use words except a parent but no parent has ever told its children, the family history. We don't just have words that we repeat that we parrot Right? We generate words from within our soul, almost irr. By the time we're 24 months old, we can do extraordinary things with their mind because

god enabled us to do that. And the goal of education then and of a human in this Christian human sense the goal of education is to convert those raw faculties, raw human potential if you like. Raw abilities, and it goes way beyond words. Let me add. But those raw abilities to convert those faculties abilities into virtue. Right? That's why I speak of wisdom and virtue. What we're trying to do is add an intentional. Right? To take the to take the ability that just is there by nature.

And then add will to that. Add wisdom to that. Add intention to that, so that we refine it and it. So that, eventually, we might well be able to write a shakespeare on it. We might well be able to write a cha area poem. We might... If we can't, we can at least read it and wander at it and say, I wanna be like that or even I'd like to imitate that maybe I'll never be Ts elliot, but I'd like to at least, you know, do my best.

Right? And that's what I'm talking about is is is cultivating that that raw ability so that it becomes a faculty. And the importance... I'm sorry, becomes a virtue. That's that's just a moment on Way through. Yeah. Wisdom means and virtue markets which by you. Yeah. We. The only time we use the word now in this country when we're talking about vi virtue virtue signaling by which... Truly isn't. You do something to make you

look good. So we know that Vi virtue broadly made something good, but as the got word we use anymore. Right? Well, happily in the United States it's coming back. I'll just say, about 20 years ago, I started doing teacher training in schools, and and I would I would ask teachers in the schools who had been in in teacher training programs in their colleges, how many of you while you are in in your teacher training programs, learned how to cultivate virtue and students?

And they would laugh at me. Just, it was an absurd idea, 20 years ago. But about 10 years ago, Maybe 5, I would ask this question, and there'd always be 1 or 2 teachers who actually raise their hands because in the last 15, 20 years because of the classical movement because of the classical renewal. There are no colleges in America that take virtue seriously. And are and are training young people, how to cultivate virtue in the classroom.

So that that makes the question even more relevant, what is a virtue? And let me go back to what I said earlier that in its broadest most basic sense, a virtue is a raw human faculty, just an ability that's perfect to a point of excellence. The Greek word Ra, which is translated virtue. The latin word... It means man us typically courage in Latin. But in Greek Ara is more the idea of any excellence. So the excellence of medicine, for example, is that it can heal.

The excellence of rest? Is that it can restore you? That's the virtue of rest? Does that you feel restored? But what's the virtue of a human being? It's it's the ability to be human, which sounds absurd, but let me just explain. It's that we have the ability, as I said to use language. We have the ability to calculate. We have within us an instinct for proportion.

That might sound really peculiar to mention proportion, but I think in a certain sense, the goal of education is to cultivate in your child a sense of proportion. Ballots. Even more than balance, I would say, because balance implies 222 things and inequality. A proportion is much more dynamic, almost musical. Yeah. Right. A chord inappropriate would be a proportion. Mh. It's more dynamic and and shifting with the with with change. Right? And so... But, yes, balance, but maybe

a more... Yep. On this student. Yep. Yeah. And so so so wisdom then, I think you could possibly summarize wisdom in the formal sense as a sense of proportion. What is the best response to these circumstances. What what would what should I say right now that would proportionately respond to what that person just said to me? Yeah. How hard should I put... Hit that person? Yeah. For for... How far if there's a plague going around the world, How far away should I stand from people?

Prudence. Right. Well, yeah. It it is it is prudence, and it has almost quantifiable aspect to it. It's not quite. It's metaphorically quantifiable. But it does get quantifiable and for example, I mean, I'm sort of joking with what I just said or being lighthearted, but we lost our sense of proportion in the pandemic. The 1 thing that we lost more than anything else with a sense of proportion. And everybody everywhere was told you should stand 6 feet apart.

And nobody ever had any evidence for that. It was pulled out as somebody's hat. And then we all everywhere in the world. Said okay, that's the proportion of a distance I should have from other people. But there was nothing dynamic about it. It had been reduced to a to a ridiculous arithmetic problem when in fact, it was more of a musical problem. It was Was called social distancing. And that too, what a ridiculous term, don't social distance yourself from me. If you wanna

physically distance yourself, okay. But don't socially distance yourself for me. I wanna release that's not important. Yeah. But... And that's that's part of it too. A word has a proportionate application. And when you twist the meaning of words like that, you're you're d... You're depriving the human mind, of the fact of the ability to think clearly. We think clearly when we have words that fit. And when the words are being con and dis distorted, we're losing our ability to

think. And I think 1 of the things that we ought to do in school, it probably. I'm I'm gonna overstate that I'm gonna make this a disproportionate. Statement. But I think what would be a really good exercise for our whole culture is to eliminate about 90 percent of the words we use because we're so careless with them. And and do a French thing, you know, where you get back get back to what the academy approves. And then we could learn how to use words again.

Now I'm exaggerating. I'm being disproportionate. But but I mean it metaphor or hyper hypothetically. We need to get back to words meaning something again, not just ways to control other people's behavior. There's a lot of people who have a great interest in reinventing language though. If you can reinvent language, you can exercise enormous influence. That's precisely the reason. Then And and and and so in the classical tradition, rhetoric is a very big deal.

But rhetoric has made 2 moves since. So this is a human point. Okay? In a human rhetoric, your goal is twofold. Your goal is to as Aristotle put it to find all the the available means of persuasion. Okay. But within an ethical context. Your goal in a in a human rhetoric context is to bring harmony to the community. Not to not to lord it over the community, but to bring harmony to the community. Therefore, rhetoric teaches deli liberation, it teaches judgment

and to reinstate the point. It teaches reasoning proportionately with proportion with prudence. But in... Go ahead. No. No. No Don't. In the... You'll never get your dinner or if I keep up. Well, in in the renaissance era, No. More more henry the eighth and... Well, that's renaissance. Sixteenth and seventeenth century, Renaissance... Sorry. Rhetoric became increasingly ornamental. Mh. So the truth is over here. Mh. And then truth isn't palatable. Mh. What a horrific idea that is to me?

Truth isn't palatable, so I have to make it sound good. And so it became ornamental. I have to make the truth more welcome. To me that that just shows a a massive in of the beauty of truth. Truth is self beautify. It doesn't need us to add ornament augmentation. But that's what they did for a few hundred. Your duty is not simply in the eye of a hole. That's correct. That's for make that plug. And it it was it's only relative. That's a beautiful sunset. Says 1 person. Yeah.

And the... No next person is, no. That's not beautiful tiny beautiful to you. Beautiful to me. Right. It's just subjective. Right. And Beauty became first. But when you... But when you do that, you start... You introduce a discord into the soul, and beauty relative ism then became ethical re. Goodness became relative, and then truth became relative. And goodness, Our beauty became relative around 1800. Let's say. Goodness became relative in the 19 twenties. I'm talking about an America market.

Formally in the public sphere, and then truth became relatively really in the 19 sixties. And now we're living out that almost absolute re ism. Yep. That that is a decline of rhetoric. It's a it's a hatred of mankind. There had many years in public life. And 1 of the things that occurred to me. And in fact, I heard Swedish epidemic expo this the other day, because we've made truth relative, and we teach that in the classroom, in the political process, now you can't speak

truth or principle. Mh. To power. Mh. Because power simply says, no, That's just what you believe That's truth for you. My truth is differ Right. And you're only left with a struggle for power. It's very d demanding in a sense. It's a sort of self fulfilling prophecy. You just end up with. It's all about them. Not about us. It's not about good things. It's about power. That's right. And and that's where... Which is in my view, something we should be very Everybody wants to

embrace power. I wanna be empowered. Mh. I actually think every single 1 of us should be humble enough. Yeah. To be truly afraid of power. I agree, and what it can do if it's misused to others, and what it can actually do to the... The person who can turn itself into a monster, Right? But by I'm using power. Right. And dog grace. But not really because because we're talking about human. Yeah. And we're talking about the the chaos of the world. I described

that that always being a off balance. Right? Mh. Well, what do you do? I said what habits do you develop? In a in a in a world like that? You develop exactly what you just said. You develop habits of maintaining power so that you can be among those who survive and rule. Mh. And the problem with that is what you just said is it's tyra. Lewis talked about that in the evolution of man, and he pointed out that without what he called the Dow without the natural law

you can't have freedom. Because there's simply nothing that governs the governor. There's simply nothing that that keeps that person, There's nothing above him that he has to subject himself to. He's just trying to survive. Now the problem with that, is if you go back to the 18 hundreds that was done at the political level. Mh. So Karl Marx comes out with a an ultimate ideology in some ways, capitalism was reduced to an ideology in the nineteenth century. You you see these big... Social

ideologies. But what's an ideology? And the way I'm using the term at least because I know it has multiple meanings, but the way I'm using the term ideology, it is where you you gl onto to some idea, and that becomes your explanation. That becomes the ground that you can stand on in this chaotic broken shifting world. Now think of this. If you've developed that ideology that that you used to survive and you define yourself by it. What do you think of a person who comes along

and says to you. You're wrong. Right. You don't think to yourself, oh, I should rethink my position. What you think is, look, well, you don't think it what you feel is, I'm living in this chaotic broken world and I've come up with a solution. You just took it away from me, you are the devil. And because in the nineteenth century, that was more social it led to World war 1 and World war 2. But in the 20 first century, we're seeing it every single individual.

You said earlier, you have your truth. Right that people say it's not you, but but you pointed out people say this. You have your truth, I have my truth and how dare you accuse me, how dare you take away my truth from me. Well, 2 things are happening there, I would argue. 1 is that you're saying to that person, I'm gonna throw you back into that ocean that's trying to destroy you. I'm gonna throw you back into that world that doesn't nourish you in any way.

You can't have an identity. You can't have meaning I'm throwing you back to chaos to nihilism. And their feeling in response to that is how dare you. I'm sorry. I forgot what the second. That's right thing is. I must... I must let you get back to your fault. We're on 2 human. But before we do, I have to say this. What occurs to me is that I think a lot of younger people, particularly what I think we now call generations ed the under body. They kinda get that knowledge and wisdom are

not necessarily acquainted right. Or ollie an area, but we're lacking wisdom that they're seeing... I think the reality that things are not going their way they ought to be. They might be 1 working out yet where the best answers are? But would that be true you you're were involved in education... Remember our countries we know from the research. In this Internet age and what have you? What happens in America happens here? What happens here happens in Britain vice versa all over the place?

Do you think they're kind of getting it they may not know where to turn to, but they're they're they're getting this disconnection that through all the knowledge in the world, everything that's happening in the classroom and so forth, we're not being wise. Right? Do I get that new view? Are you seeing that the kids are getting that? In the negative sense, yes, in the sense that I believe that as the sixties generation gave up on their parents because everything was so rigid.

I think that the the twenties generation is giving up on their parents because everything is so free flowing. And it's, you know, the 102 too re. Right? And and so they're oceans. Right. And they don't know what those foundations ought to be. Yep. They've been told that those foundations shouldn't be Christian. Mh. They've been told that those foundation shouldn't restrict them in any way. They've been told that they should govern themselves entirely.

But I do detect among Christians, a renewal of of, a an admitted desire for transcend a desire for for for more rigorous Christianity for for a christianity that demands more of them. Fasting chastity, vow, obedience. I believe there's there's those things are taking place. I also believe that in the in the secular realm if we can call it that. There's a great split, not a split. There's a there's extremes taking place, fragmentation taking place.

And so there are some who are utterly giving into the despair and literally letting their bodies be be chopped up, literally, becoming cast, but not for the kingdom of heaven if you like. People who are giving up on meaning, giving up on the possibility that their body might mean something. Right? And I think this is a crucial point. It's again, the human isn't, but it's also what's coming. The human body has meaning

Right. It has a function, but it has meaning and and and and having removed from the children their sense of the glory of being human. The meaning follows. So a glory crisis has led to a meaning crisis. And so the children that are growing up now, many of them, AAAA depressing number of them are come... Are giving way completely to the despair. But then I think there's another massive group. Maybe they're the nuns even, N0NE nes.

A massive group who are not content with the overly gl christianity that that they see around them at least as it's presented to them, maybe maybe the real not trying australia. I don't see very a lot of them don't see any. Yeah. In America is probably more silk is in America, it has more of a profile, but I I hear what you're saying. So so let me let me just say it about America that I think there's there's a gl Christianity that they're rejecting. But there's also a gl nihilism that they're

reject. Yeah. Right? To play it, Christianity is 1 thing, because you can fall short and still get some value. But to play it nihilism, They sing back. Oh my goodness. That is a lot of and well here. Yes. And nihilism hurts. It hurts, and the deeper you embrace at the more anxious you become. And I... Cannot Just make

an expectation here? I want to encourage any parents or teachers that are listening to this to understand that the main lesson that modern education has been teaching at least in the states, and I would wage you're here to. But the main lesson that everybody in the United States has learned from the educational system. Politicians have learned that students certainly learn it parents have learned that teachers, administer, everybody has learned this, and that's lesson of anxiety.

We have become masters of anxiety. And I want to urge any teachers, parents and administrators in school their home and and and and anybody any realm that is listening to you, don't give to the anxiety. Because if you give to an... And you will sometimes I understand. But if you give to anxiety, It doesn't go away. Right? It's a monster. It will grow in you. And what we need to learn is these disciplines of I'm a just gonna say disciplines of peace because I don't know what else to

call them. But s saint Paul said, let the peace of god rule in your heart. And then in Philippians 4 6 through 9, he talks about the God of piece and the peace of God. He tells us what to think about. He tells us how to teach He lays it all out for us. And what we have to offer the world today, if we receive it ourselves, but only if we receive it ourselves is the peace of god.

And the peace of God. 1 person attaining peace in his soul will will will be louder and more vivid a proclamation of the gospel than than millions of people with a perfect method for delivering it. And so forgive me for the digress aggression, but I... No. Responsible who. No. Must apologize. Because we're talking about the 4 foundations of

classical litigation. Right? And the only comment I'd make there is that I think all of us would know that when you meet somebody who really use a piece and has come to grips rates. With the human conundrum of human life. It is a remarkable thing you do notice. You do? You really do. And the thing about peaceful people is that they they don't go through life expecting it to be easy. Mh.

They understand that it's hard. They understand as Adam had to, Yeah that we we we we grow food by the sweat of the brow. We're supposed to suffer. And the desperate attempt to run from suffering only makes us anxious. We need to we need to re... I I think most technology is driven by the desperate attempt to escape suffering. We need to re embrace it. We need to become orders again, literally and metaphorically. And that doesn't mean that suffering is a good thing as such. Only in the sense

that it leads to something. Yeah. I'll put it this way. I don't believe that life in this world, and I've had a good life. But I don't believe life in this world is worth living if it's all there is. Good friend of mine, so to me once I'm glad suffering you'd be suffer if you would. Yeah. That's good. Right. I'll it all. Thanks. And it does produce patience. Yeah. Paul says, so... And it does produce character.

But only if it's oriented towards something. Mh. And what we have to remember is that it's worth it because look, what we're looking forward, what our soul cream is what Moses said. Show me your glory. And what our soil crave is that moment when we're standing before Jesus himself. In the presence of 10000 times 10000 angels in the presence of all the saints of all the honored men and women who have served and taken up their crosses in the presence of those that we love that have

known him. And the Lord Jesus himself looks us in the eye. And we make eye contact with him and instead of saying depart from Me Cursed. He says, well done. There is nothing else that can possibly satisfy the human soul than the infinite welcome the infinite embrace of the love of God. And what we have failed, I think to grasp ourselves is that there is no suffering that isn't worth that. And there and there is no message that we can give to the world apart from that.

So even... I mean, even look, even in school, we don't want our kids to suffer. Well, they're not gonna learn if they don't suffer. When you go from ignorance to knowledge, you suffer every lesson in my opinion is a hero's journey, if it actually is a successful lesson where they see truth. We don't we don't want our children to suffer. But the problem isn't that they're gonna suffer. The problem is we don't see the glory that it's preparing for them. We have a glory crisis in our own heart.

We don't think union with God is worth it, and we don't think the blessed of Psalm 1. Where we're like a tree planted by the rivers of water being. We don't think it's worth it. And so we're afraid of suffering as a result. Now don't misunderstand me. I'm terrified of suffering, and it's the last thing I wanna do. But when I'm in the suffering conditions that are unavoidable. I have found that I can keep going if I can remember. If I can just remember a trace of God's love for me.

And I want Jesus to say to me well done, more than anything else. That's what I want. As I said, we'll never get you to your dinner if we don't move on. We're talking about the 4 pillars of of technical education. Right? Then I'm gonna ask you why. This is spreading across America and what's driving it and how fast it's growing. So we've got, log. We've got true human. Mh. 3 end and 4 is 3. Yeah The third is is is pie. Okay. Fashioned word. Yes. It is. It comes from

tradition. Virgin I don't wanna Oh, I don't wanna be passed. No you're don't. Quickly and it would be like signal possible and yeah. The virtue signal. Yeah. Wouldn't it? Yeah. Sure. If you corrupt it. Everything is corrupt. Right. Everything is corrupt. But true pie. To the point being that was once a word. That was understood entirely differently than. Mh. As I understand it. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. The root concept now is something we reject just like prudence, like, right? John Lennon Deer

Prudence when. You come out to play. No. But Pie is is the notion of reverence. Mh. That that I respect my father. Mh. I respect my ancestors. I respect my heritage. I receive what they did. Mh. And I honor and respect it. But I take responsibility for it. It's not that I look back at everything I've received and go, my dad did that, so it's good. My mom did that, so it's good. No. They've given me something, and now I'm responsible for what I do with it. They've given me their their their

models. That... But but I can't I can't just say well, my dad did that, so that's what I should do. We can't do that. But we can look with respect and reverence that all that we've received. So call it the traditional, Then the second element of Pie is reverence to our children. Reverence for the future. Call it the progressive if you want, call it the not the by any means, but the but the future orientation. I revere my grandchildren. But they're born.

I also revere my un born great grandchildren. And I pray for them all the time. I pray for them all the time that my that my role in this life will not interfere with their productivity, usefulness, blessed. We have to we have to not waste their fortune on our self indulge. Like the old bumper sticker in the states anyway that you'd see them on win a Bagels. Do you have when Bagels here? From America. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Where you'd see. I'm spending my coca cola and kfc.

Okay. All things American arrive here sooner or later. Right. Sorry about that. I'm as an American who arrived through sooner or later. But but the but the bumper sticker, I don't know if you still see it, but it'll say, I'm spending my grandchildren inheritance. Yeah. Yeah. Well, very funny. Mh Right. And probably they meant it, like, they're probably actually preserving things for them. But too much of our culture does take that of attitude. Mh. It doesn't matter that we're

wasting our our grandchildren inheritance. It doesn't matter that we're consuming the resources that that they that they need to live by. That's not pie. That's not respect. That's not reverence. That's not love. If if love is a better word, let's use love. That's not love for my grandchildren and great grandchildren. And the third element of pie is the present is the world that I live in, the

world of which I am a steward. Pie toward the creation, pie toward the garden in the backyard, pie toward my neighbors, pie toward my classmates, pie toward my colleagues. The understanding that that person is the image of God. That person is a potential eternal glory that I can make up contribution to. And that physical world around me is a gift from God that I was called upon to Steward. And so that sense of pie perm I argue, perm AAAA thorough, let's say, Christian classical education.

And then the fourth 1 let's use the word coherent. It's it's a good kind of. It's a noun, but title. So so here c coherent is this that that, okay, I believe in logos, I believe in mankind as the image of God, and I believe in pie, oh, and I should have mentioned obviously, also pie to our god. None of none of the rest follows. But I believe in those 3 things, but What about my school curriculum? I have to have a curriculum, a pe a motive assessment, a motive governing? Are they coherent?

And 1 of the things that we deal within in the United States is that for the most part, our modes of assessment are derived from carte philosophy, which running the card, hyper. Our modes of teaching, our derived from Jean Jacques Ro so, romantic is almost irrational, emotional, got driven. Our modes of of of textbook. IIII have a hard time figuring out where a textbooks come, but I think they're just management theory. Which is sort of carte, but also Bay. They're governed by management theory.

And then our modes of governance come from Machiavelli. And so what we have is 4 very, very different philosophies that govern the the 4 main elements of the school. They're. Now the problem with that more than anything else is that when the transaction takes place that makes education what it is, by which I mean, when the teacher talks to the student.

What that teacher does then is funnels all those contradiction through through his or her own instruction into the soul of the child who has no idea that's what's happening. And that soul now has to carry through its life all those contradiction or has to figure out how to reconcile them, which is way beyond the capacity of any child I've ever met. And so this this notion of which really takes us back to the logos. Doesn't it? This notion of c is we have to make sense.

We have to have a harmony between the different elements of of our activities. It's bad management if I can put it that way. To manage things so precisely that there's no coherent to it. That it's fragmented and broken up that way. I believe that we're harming our children I believe that there's a mental health crisis in part because of because of the way we manage our schools and because of the way we assess their performance,

And because there's nautical appearance. And I and I think there's mental health issues among teachers. And in in kids it's manifested in anxiety, mis behaviors so In teachers, it's manifested in the fact that very few teachers make it past the seventh years as a teacher. Mh. They burn out so fast on teachers. That's happening you too. Absolutely. And and and management theory would say, if you have that high a level of statistical

breakdown, you should examine why. Just ask, and because they'll tell you, I can't handle the inc. Mh. I can't handle the the administrative load you're placing on me. I got into education because I love children, and you're making me push forms left and right and I can't teach anymore. That's what they'll tell you. Right in this country, a lot of teachers would say, there are no disciplined restructure. Well, that's true too. So that's true. Will often say I am actually in danger.

In the classroom. Right. And then they will say there are children who are so disruptive that not only they not getting an education. I can't teach the kids at that do want 1. Right? Now consider that, here we have a teacher who's in danger because of students. Okay? That is in that is incredible thought. But they're also in danger because of their administration. Mh. They're squeezed. They're professionally in danger

from their administration. And they're physically end danger from their students. That doesn't lead to mental health. That leads to teachers burning out and leaving the profession, And that's what that's what that's why I think we're reaching a a world historical moment in managerial practice. I think we've hit the limit in in some. I don't know what what the maybe the pandemic was

the crossing point or maybe it's coming. But we've hit a limit in in the the the precision of management that we can apply why. We... Every time there's a crisis, we think we can manage our way out of it and we can database our way out of it. We can research our way out of it. Where research is post factor. Right? It's like accounting. It can tell you how you did last year. I grant you that it can help you anticipate. But it

can't tell you what's gonna be coming. And in a similar way, the research based notion of education, research is important, but you can't base education on it because you're only dealing with what's already happened. We need principles. We need human. We need coherent, we need pie for the teacher, and we need logo centers in order to restore the souls of the teachers, souls of the students, and I'll go even further and say the souls of the families.

Let's move to the classical education movement in America you're an integral to understand you've been involved with some hundred schools there are many hundred schools across America now embracing this approach what's driven at? Yeah how world's it working? Give us a feel for the numbers or quantity?

Is it producing result? Oh my goodness. And it results oriented into a. Well, I can tell you that for 30 years, I've watched Anecdotal results be produced, And in the last few years, It's been around long enough that the research is absolutely validating it. Good soil. Not dame University of Not dame did a a research. Analysis of Acc schools, with your association of classical Christian schools, and it's called the good

soil report. What's exciting about that is that you see that students who go to Christian and Classical schools perform better on tests, get better admissions to college, do better in their careers, but especially, Are more engaged in the Civic realm, more engaged politically. More engaged, oh, interestingly, better able to have a communication, a a conversation with people they disagree with. They don't they don't immediately,

crack into a d economist. They're they're better able to have discussions because they've been doing it in school for 12 years, listening to other people. So they're so they're better able statistically, professionally academically, but they're also better as citizens and as human beings. Now I can't remember. I I... I'm pretty confident this is true, but maybe it's just my deep desire that makes me want to see this. I think they also said in that research that their marriages are doing better.

But don't quote me on that point. I think that's true. But if it's not, it needs to be. And I think it would be because healthier souls make for better marriages. So there is the database that tells you that that it's making a difference. Now as far as the the the trajectory of it, I got involved in 19 93, I helped start a school, I think I mentioned this earlier and in Green Bay Wisconsin called Providence Academy. In 19 94, I went to, what I believe was the first Acc conference.

There were 67 people at that conference if my memory serves correctly, but it was certainly less than a hundred. Now, every year they have a conference where about 1200 to 1500 people come. And that is a very small representation of all the people involved in the classical movement. There's the Acc has grown to. I think it's 500 schools, but it keeps... What, let me let me illustrate. I wrote a book. I think you mentioned this called classical Education,

the movements sweeping America. First edition was 19 98. I think then we rewrote it in around 2001. In 2008 or 9, they asked me to write a third edition, and it took me 5 years because things changed so fast, that I couldn't keep up. I wouldn't even try to write that book now, except in just the most sweeping terms. There's now a classic of movement taking place here in Australia there are classical schools in Indonesia. There are classical schools and for the kurds in in

Iraq. They're they're are classical... There's a classical renewal beginning in England. There's there's catholic liberal education is restoring a classical vision. Colleges are changing, They they want those students that are graduating able to read, able to calculate, able to carry on a discussion, able to write well. Colleges are are looking for these students. You're seeing you're seeing master's programs forming honors programs.

Colleges are changing because of classical education. They're... In fact, they're going back to what they always used to want to be. You're you're seeing it all over the world, and I don't know the number, but I believe there's something like a hundred thousand students. Right now, well, today's June 6 as we're speaking, so a lot of them are on vacation, holiday.

But this September when they start up the school year, I believe the number of students in classical school schools will be over a hundred thousand students. So it's it's it took a it took a while. Actually, it happened very quickly even from the beginning, but it's a big country. But now we're looking at serious cultural transformation happening because of classical education. And you've got lessons, failures that are meant that you've had to rethink anything.

Sure. Sure. I I got that we learn, isn't then? As you said yes. I can tell you at the personal level in a and and at the school level, I can tell you that when I started that school helped start that school in 19 93, I did it with arrogance self importance, listen to me because I know everything, and it it was a year and a half that I survived in that environment. I had to quit because I was so pushy and aggressive, and I heard so many people

in that school. And I thought I thought that I had been given the opportunity to do what I was called to do and just followed the nest, but out of the mercy of God doctor V asked me to help him write that book, and that's what that was a resurrection for me. So that's 1 thing I learned. The second thing I would add is that, back in the nineties, we used to think that if you if you throw the match on the kind, a fire is gonna start. If you start a school, you're gonna get... It's gonna succeed.

I don't know that everybody thought that way, but I'm naive that way. By the end of the nineties, I was realizing that a lot of schools were starting in in the American manner of quickly starting Rapid kin and then burning out. And and we did see a lot of... We did we did see a lot of schools start and stop. Go ahead. We have a state system alongside the private system here. Around 40 percent of Australian children are now educated outside right government system.

I don't know quite how that it lines up with your system. I know you do have public and private school. Yeah. The schools you're talking about are they all private or are some of that good question. Good question. Think wild Wild West. There there are this state, there are the regular government schools that have, let's say, any teachers, teachers, unions and so on. And those schools, they try hard. I don't think it's possible for them to succeed very often.

They can if they're very well funded. But I don't think they can succeed very often in other settings because the resources aren't there. And the structures aren't there and they're not allowed to discipline and, you know, they're controlled by the latest person's latest truth what did we say fe, the fur. But then there are charter schools. And in the u... In the Us, the charter school is a... A locally governed school that has been given a government charter. Rather labor a

British model. There's not so many of them, but I do have them in Britain. Okay. Right. Right. And then in the in the states, there's 2 large networks of charter schools. 1 is called the Barney Barney initiative or Barney charter schools. Anyway and the other is the great hearts aca. Great hearts aca are largely based in Texas and Arizona, but there's gotta to be dozens

of great hearts aca now. Some of which have 502 a thousand students, and the Barney schools are all over the country, especially in Florida, And so maybe you've heard about Ron Des and all the things he's done. Yes. They started a college in Florida at Ra... Well, it's not a new college, but they made it a a classical college, Ra College. And and there is there is now a political element in that, the state of Florida and and in other places, political

leaders are embracing classical education. Now the fear there, of course, is that then it gets identified as some sort of right wing thing when in fact, what we're trying to cultivate in the classical renewal deli liberation. We're trying to avoid. Win. We It's an important point isn't it because you're getting this bifurcation in America where red states and blue states. Right. Are increasingly becoming red or blue. When people or moving from west California to conservative Florida or

what have you. Mh. So you presumably have a stronger presence in what might be called the red states and than you do in the blue states, would that be right? It seems like at California, Washington and Oregon and and and New England, those are very difficult places to have been very difficult places to have flourishing private classical schools, partly in New England especially. They... The people in New England feel like they're getting a great education, why would we need that.

People in California, I think Are more ideological and Washington and Oregon. But that's sweeping statements. You do see tens of thousands of home schoolers in California yeah that are doing classical education. California's is an interesting nation. This is an economy. It'll it'd be what the sixth or seventh life believe so. If it was on a time, it comes will. Mind that might be collapsing because you got Silicon Valley at the very top wealthiest these

people world ever known. Mh. And then, middle class, and, Californian of left. Those industries largely. Right. And and, of course, the trouble is they bring California with them. Yeah. Whether that mean housing prices. So so for example, I know of 1 town, I won't say where it is, but but the Californian if I think tripled the population of this town. And what's happened there for is you have a 2 tier society where the prices of houses have California united.

So the locals who have been there for a long time can't afford to buy a house, and and and they are they are increasingly becoming servants. To the California. Now those California might be decent conservative people, let's say, or just moral people, but they're still bringing those California price, the California money with them. But even worse, California, political habits are are are are coming

I would over the state. It's extraordinary as that Mean given that the Californian political habits are creating as we now know law. And broke down, cities like La and San Francisco over and mind... You don't mind me being rooted. That's that's the way I see it a state where 80 percent of the new jobs, emerging jobs are low paid, which in America's really low. Right. Why would you not when you once you've escaped that, Wanna take it with you. Well, I think I

think generally speaking I digress on. Yeah. But it's... Important for Americans, and I think it relates to the Pie aspect. And our declaration of independence, we say that that people don't want to break with the past. We'll endure we'll endure abuse for a long period of time. But then a certain point comes where we can't take it anymore. So Well, I think that's because we respect the people who are

ruling over us in our past. And so in a certain way you could say it's the virtue of the the the Californian who are fleeing. That they respect where they came from or at least they hold on to the habits. It's very difficult. It's look, it's very difficult to repent especially politically. Yeah. It's very difficult to say you know what? That that that just flat out doesn't work. And and and the short term solutions, the problem solving mindset that California to my mind seems to be

governed by that. Here's a problem. Let's solve it as opposed to here's a discord in in in the whole cosmos. Let's let's let's see Harmony. That problem solving approach, it solves the problem that you can specify sometimes. And then it makes you believe that everything can be reduced to a problem. But politically, especially in a country with 300 plus million people, you're not really dealing with isolated... We're not... You're not dealing with a big problem that can be solved.

You're dealing with a crisis of of discord that's that's almost like Beethoven ninth. You've torn up the pages and the notes are all over the road, and now you have to re assemble it. That's that's not a that's not an easy problem to solve. Tell me, and there'll be parallels for this in America. I'm sure, Here in this country amongst those. The extraordinary number of private schools that kids

are being sent to. Most of them, I would think a clear majority would have a a religious foundational basis if you like, mostly Christian, often honored more in the breach than in the reality. But many of the new smaller schools that are attracting a lot of students. And remember, Australia is a very secular country, but they're sending them there because they're looking for discipline and they're looking for better teaching what have

you. So they're offering what might be called AAA religious or a Christian education, but that's not the same as a classical education. Mh just for the purposes of contrast. Yeah. How would you characterize the difference between what many of these schools are offering, which would be, you know, an educational approach that steep, I suppose you'd say in

Christian belief. Yeah. With what you're talking about, which sounds earth's classical and Christian or about getting that Yeah You know That's an interesting way to put it. I personally slim and very uncomfortable with hyphen Christianity. I want Christian education. What it comes down to is what's the relationship? Every every every church denomination in school, every person That's secret christian has to decide. What is the relationship between supernatural

and natural between grace and nature. And there's a tendency among some people, I was 1 of these to think that there's this great gap. This this great ditch that you can't cross between the supernatural and the and the natural, or grace in nature unless god does something miraculous. Right. If if that's what you believe, I'm gonna use the term fundamentalist even though it can be un kind. But if that's what you believe, then you have a you have You're gonna say, well, why would you read

anything but the Bible? Mh. Okay. And because the bible is clearly a supernatural text. It's full of grace, but anything else is just natural and nature's bad. Mh On the other hand, there are some who believe that that grace perm me it's all of nature. And and I would be more on that side, and I think I think that everybody has to work out the degree by which they did... They believe that Grace in nature are inter. I based my belief on Christ having

human nature and divine nature perfectly blended. And I think therefore, anything human is good. In as much as it's human that that sin is sin because it undercut our humanity, not because it's human. Right? When we say I'm only human, of flesh and blood. Mean, really, it's if only I were human. Right? I mean, I'm... There's only been 1 human. So what we... What we... That's why I believe in human.

And so so for me, for my understanding, the Christian Christian education is the fulfillment of classical education. There is a sense in which for example, said what does athens have to do with Jerusalem. And I understand that argument. But there are... There's a great deal. For example, they both lived in the same world. And they both had to live in it and both were striving for the transcend. And what Christ does is he doesn't say, you morons, I've come, now shut up.

What he says is, I am here. If you humble yourself before me, I will ex you. I will lift you up. And in a certain sense, I believe that that the Christian teacher can be the means by which home Resilient, let's say. Humble itself in the sight of the Lord and becomes exalted. I don't think the ancient Greeks could understand homer. I think only the Christian can understand Walmart. Ultimately.

I think there's a wisdom that is available There's a wisdom that's available in Christ that simply isn't available in any other way. But every single school every single individual, every single family has to determine to what extent am I capable of using and and understanding these these human products without turning them into gods without worshiping shipping them. And I'll admit to you my tendency

If I could, I... If I weren't to Christian, I probably would worship palmer, maybe Vi virtual, not vi, but his gods. But but once you see Christ, it's it's it's easier to humble yourself before him. So so practically then, what happens is is each school has to decide on a curriculum. And and some schools decide on a on a very I'm gonna call it fragmented or broken apart. We have a national curriculum and here

by the way. Right? Like Britain even though Britain's premier education that's warned us not to do it. We've done it. Oh is that right? Yeah. We have a national curriculum. See. And the state system, particularly Yeah. It it becomes very hard for teachers and parents. I think, to necessarily take education where they would like to Yeah. Very... It's it's so. This is good. I

wanna sound un sympathetic here, Adam Yeah. I would like the state system to work to its best possible because I'm a believer in choice, Parents should have choice. We should respect the role of parents. Right. I'm not sure that Right. Senior people in government these these days necessarily think that. They're render stages in the states should they their children. Some do. Yeah. But So I think it's a real problem.

We have a national curriculum And I wonder whether it really means that teachers school local schools are able to really respond properly and quickly to the real needs of their students. Yeah. To be frank. Very possible, But let me let me offer you is something I found ironic. In the United States there's no national Curriculum and so the wild wild west. There's

no boundaries. Mh. What that means is anybody can make up their own curriculum and therefore, there's an awful lot of curriculum and some of them work and some don't, but there's actually unnecessary conflict I think there because of that. But there aren't there aren't really rules. 1 of the things about a game like tennis or really any game. A game is defined by its rules. Mh. And you have in my opinion, You're right. You have too many boundaries. The tennis court is too small and

the nets too high. Nonetheless, what I've seen in in Brisbane in Melbourne here in the last week or so what I've seen is an amazing amount of creativity. And I've come to the conclusion that you have a challenge here but that the Christian modes of teaching, and it's christian classical modes of teaching and the Christian classical approach to curriculum is so simple and adaptable that it's not threatened by it. That in fact, in my opinion, I have not done

this. So I'm I'm... It's a premature opinion. But in my opinion, it will be much easier for the schools to succeed in the way the state wants them to. If they adopt the Christian cup classical approach. And I I'll quote Newman to to apply this. Okay. John Henry Newman said said the good is always useful, but the useful. Is not always good. Well, the twentieth century entry clearly shows owed that. Didn't it. Yeah.

And and and and if I made the the the curriculum and the Pet you that are being implemented or required by the state. They're useful. If you go beyond that useful, and sometimes they're not. But if you go beyond that usefulness and you don't take a hostile attitude toward it. But you submit because that's how

god saves us. But you you take a submissive attitude to it, but then you go beyond it to the Christian classical modes of instruction and curriculum philosophy, it won't So you you won't suffer for it. You'll you'll go beyond them. You won't fall short. You won't be adding... You won't even be adding onto it. You'll be going beyond it and thus fulfilling it. And I think it's it's a very useful thing if you wanna fulfill. If you wanna throw a dart 7 meters, try to throw it 10. Right?

I mean, I don't know if that works exactly, but I don't think Christian classical education is threatened by the by the curriculum. But it will require creativity, and it will require, it'll require peace of mind. What we talked about before for. It will require If you try... If you if you approach it with hostility and fear and anxiety, you probably won't be

able to deal with it. But if you but if you If you receive it as the challenge that the Lord has given you today, then I think we'll be able to... I think we'll be able to do much more than they're asking for us. And when we do that, then they'll say, please show me more. Now I'm saying that based on faith. I'll grant you that. You'll never get to that dinner. So... But but there are 2 more things I must ask you just for a brief comment on as we as we wind out. Firstly, technology and Ai.

Can b g bt and so forth. And the potential for good or bad in education, any thoughts. The human spirit can change only so fast. And we have we have hit a point where change is happening so fast that we're flying off the ferris wheel or the spinning wheel. I think that technology, if if I'm ahead of school right now, I'm not letting social media in my school. I'm not letting chat Gp in my school.

I'm not letting I'm not letting any of those tools in until students have demonstrated the maturity to handle them, and I can't find anybody anywhere in the world who has that maturity, so it really surprise me. To me, there's an analogy with the calculator. If a seventh grade student is allowed to use the calculator, I can almost guarantee you that child will never get good at math. Yep. Right? If we can outsource our intelligence

and let somebody else do the work. We don't have slaves anymore, we use technology instead. The consequence, however, is that our own minds are diminished because I'm a human, a Christian human because I believe in the logos, what I want is my students to learn how to perceive the logos artificial intelligence, which is a mis, will never help anybody do that. Look, a final 1, just very brief free. Particularly since Covid. You do hear stories in this country in particular, that parents have seen

a bit too much ideology in Yes. Curriculum. Yes. And there's more uptake, more interest in homeschooling. I'd say, big step for me to think through. But I guess, the first question I would have. Well look the the simple question because we must let you wind up. But the socialization aspect. Yeah. Of keeping you kids at school. Yeah. At home rather, for educational purposes.

Any final thoughts because in the end, much of what we've been talking about is how we learned to relate to humans who have creator and 1 another. 3 quick thoughts, which I had time to develop. First of all, age getting children doesn't help them socially mature. Mh. Second thought, children who get to know their parents well, interact with them, develop good habits, And those parents then inter inter them with the wider community. You don't sit at home

all day when you're homeschool school. You join communities. Third thought, main 1. The love of the mother for the child is the means by which salvation came into the world, and it still is when when when Mary gave birth Jesus, she was the means by which God saved the world. When mother gives birth to a child and then carries that child through her life. Knowing that her soul is being pierced by a sword, Simeon said to Mary. That's what it is to be a mother.

When the mother takes that sword into her soul for the sake of her child. The whole world finds its salvation in that act. And I would argue therefore that those moms who are called to homeschooling, should do it with bold with humility and driven by love for the child. You've given us a great deal about. You've been very generous with your time. Thank you so much. Thank you. What an honor. Thank you for listening to conversations with John Anderson.

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