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Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Jillian on Love. Today, I have a very special guest, Mel Robbins. Mel Robbins is an award-winning podcast host a number one New York Times bestselling author and one of the most followed and sought after experts in mindset, behavior change, and life improvement and today we talk about her book if you have not already read it you need to go and read it It's called the Let Them Theory. And we dive deep into what the Let Them Theory is and what it's not.
and how it can profoundly impact your life. And we also talk about how it's actually impacted Mel's life and her relationship with her husband and with her family. I think that there's many of us who could say that we are not people pleasers. But if we're really honest with ourselves, there have been times where we have people pleased.
And that is because our instinct to get along and to belong is so strong. And because that instinct is so strong, it sometimes gets in the way of us being able to... live and let live and to let other people live their lives and be who they are without us falling into a Codependent trap honestly of trying to change them or fix them
This is actually a nuanced topic, and it's a nuanced conversation, and it's one that I think you're going to really enjoy. Mel breaks it down perfectly. It's actually a really good conversation. So without further ado, Mel Robbins. Mel, welcome to the show. Thank you. I'm so excited. I'm so excited to meet you. And this is our first time meeting. And thank you for being here. And I'm really excited to get into some nitty gritty things. Let's begin!
So first things first, because just for the random people who may not know, what is the let them theory and then why do you think it's become... such a huge the huge sensation that it has become great question so quickly for anybody that doesn't know what it is it's just a simple mindset tool That's it. It's a mindset tool that in an instant it shows you what's in your control and what's not in your control.
And the way that you use it is just easy, easy, easy. And I think that's one of the reasons why this thing has exploded around the world because it is simple, it is easy, and yet it is going to cut to the core. of why you feel tired, why you feel overwhelmed, why you are so stressed out, why you find yourself in the same annoying patterns with other people in your life, whether it's your job or your relationship.
The problem isn't you. The problem is this power that you unknowingly are giving to other people's moods, expectations, their poor behavior, their thoughts, their opinions, and that ends with the let them theory. And it's very simple. You're just going to let people be who they are. And that makes your relationships better. You're going to let people live their lives and that's going to make your life better. And there are two parts to the theory.
The first part is when you say let them. And you say let them any moment when somebody is basically pissing you off or stressing you out or worrying you or hurting your feelings or making you upset in any way or you find yourself holding yourself back because you're worried about what they might think, you're simply going to go, let them.
Let them think what they're going to think. Let them be in a bad mood. Let them do what they're doing. And when you say let them, you are recognizing that another person is always and forever going to be something you can't control. And if something is beyond your control, Stop wasting time and energy on it. Because as any psychologist will tell you, if you try to control something you can't control, it just creates stress for you. And we've all tried to change people.
And it just creates stress for you and it backfires. People don't change because you want them to magically change. They change when they are ready to do the work to change. So step one is you're stressed out about something let them let them be in a bad mood let traffic back up let my boss be a jerk today step two is saying let me let me remind myself that in life There's only three things I can control.
I can control what I think about what's happening. I can control what I do or don't do. And especially for women listening, what you don't do is just as important as what you do do. And the third thing is I get to control how I'm going to respond to the very real and valid emotions that are rising up inside of me. Or are they going to run me over and make me do something I regret?
Or am I going to process them in a way that is healthier and then choose how to respond? And so that's it. It is two words, let them. that allow you to release control of what you never had control of in the first place, which is other people, and let me, which is a prompt that reminds you that you do have power, and it's time to start using it.
So this must, I mean, I know resonates very deeply with people who struggle with some codependency struggle with people-pleasing I mean, honestly, the need to control our environment and the need to control other people, first of all, it's all an illusion because we're just not, like you said, there's only three things we're in control of.
But why do you think that it's gotten worse or do you think that this paralysis that we find ourselves in when it comes to wanting to control that which we cannot control is something that's always been there which it has to some degree. But do you think that now in today's world and just with technology and everything, do you think it's worse than ever? Because it's not just.
for the codependent it's not just for the people pleaser it's not just for the control freak although those are the people who are probably going to benefit tremendously But I'm curious if you think that there's something that it's worse now than it's ever been, the need to control or feeling out of control. Well, first of all, it's a very astute observation, and the answer is yes. And the reason why is multi-layered. And so I'm going to address this in a number of parts.
And I'm going to kind of dig into it a little bit because I want you as you're listening or watching this to understand you're not crazy. If you feel more overwhelmed or stressed out or you're procrastinating more than ever, It's not just you. It's basically everybody on the planet. And I'm going to get into some of the research and why that matters. And first, though, I want to cover what you said, which is.
Human beings have a fundamental hardwired need to feel in control because feeling in control is what makes you feel safe. And so every person that you know, and you as you're listening or watching this, You just are always going to have this need to feel like you're in control of your decisions, you're in control of what's happening at work, you're in control of how your significant other feels, you're in control of what's happening in your family.
Because when you are in control of those things, you feel like everything's going to be okay. And that's normal. And you're never getting rid of it. Here's the problem. When another human being, or the headlines, or something outside of you, your boss, your mother-in-law, the person that you thought was going to be the one who now is slowly distancing themselves from you, when somebody else's behavior
starts to concern you or make you feel like your life's a little out of control right now, what do we do? We make a gigantic mistake and we step across this line and we think, We will feel in control if we control the other person. If we force them to like us. If we make our boss happy. If we make sure my mom is really happy because I'm doing the thing that I'm supposed to be doing this weekend. But here's the problem. Just like you have a need to control, so do they.
So when you jump over the line and you bend over backwards to try to please your mother, does it make her happy? No. When you chase down that person that is withdrawing, does it actually pull them toward you? No. What does it do? It pushes them away. Why? Because you're bumping up against their... hardwired need to be in control of their actions and what happens to them. And I didn't realize any of this. And so, number one,
The need for control has been around since the history of time and you are never getting rid of it. But the thing that the let them theory taught me is that you're never going to feel more in control by controlling everyone else. You feel more in control when you stop controlling everyone else, and you actually focus on your response to what's happening. Because it was never your job to make sure everybody around you is in a good mood.
It was never your job to make sure that the person that you're in a relationship loves you back. It's your job to show up in your life in a way that makes you proud. It's your job to make decisions in your life. that align with who you are as a person and who you value and what you value rather. And it's your job to recognize with very... Cold, black and white eyes and perspective when you're in a situation or in a relationship.
where a person is revealing where you stand and it's not a match for what you actually want or deserve. And see, we think we change relationships by changing the other person. That's why we chase people. That's why we bend over backwards. That's why we're people pleasers, because we're trying to make people like us.
You actually change every relationship by changing your relationship to yourself, by honoring your time and energy, by having standards about what behavior you accept or you don't accept.
Because you're always in control of how much time and energy you pour into things. And when you start showing up in a way that's different and you start respecting your own time and you start seeing that when somebody slinks out the door like a stray cat every morning after you've slept with them that's not a sign that they're in a Like committed relationship with you. That's a sign that they're embarrassed to be there and they want to get out. Let them. Because they're actually giving you data.
And when you have data on where you stand, you now get to choose whether or not this behavior is attractive or this behavior is beneath. the level of behavior you accept in your life. It's not about them. It's really about you. Always because you have the power. And so, you know, your first question was, has it gotten worse?
Yes. And it's gotten worse because of a couple reasons. One is, there's research in the book about stress. And that's the first way everybody starts using it. You just say, let them. And you suddenly feel a little bit more peace. Well, Dr. Aditi Nurkar from Harvard Medical School is one of the world-renowned researchers on stress, which is a medical state that you can find yourself in. And her research shows that 83% of us...
are living in a chronic state of stress right now. So everybody you meet is basically in a state of fight or flight. Their amygdala is running the show, and it's why if you're finding it harder to concentrate, if you're procrastinating more, if you're more emotional, if you're overthinking more, Again, the problem isn't you. The problem is your body is in a stressed out state.
And when that happens, it's very hard to use your thinking skills with the other part of your brain, your prefrontal cortex. And so I think one of the reasons why we're seeing such a huge rise in disrespectful behavior, you're seeing a rise in anxiety, you're seeing a rise in people pleasing, you're seeing a rise in people just feeling overwhelmed, frankly.
is because we're living in a moment of time where most people are stressed out. The headlines are terrifying. AI is coming. People feel out of control with their jobs and based on the latest research. The average person is spending six hours a day staring at their phone. And again, the control over your life is not going to come by staring at everybody else's life. Feeling in control over your life and relationship.
is going to come from letting other people live their lives, letting other people do their thing and be who they are. and recognizing that the power's always been in letting me focus my time and energy on actually building a life and showing up in my life in a way that makes me proud and not wasting my time. And so, you know, I think you're right that the kind of sense that things are out of control. is bigger than ever. And so one thing I also want to say, Jillian, is that
If you feel overwhelmed right now, I think that's a sign that you're mentally well. I don't know how anybody could be feeling not overwhelmed or stressed out based on the state of the world. based on where the economy is headed, based on the bombardment of headlines and the constant stuff that's being shoved in your face. We weren't designed to live this way. And my big headline and what we're going to talk about today is don't let all that gaslight you. You have power.
You can change this. There's a different way to go through your life. There's a different way to move through your relationships. And it's as simple as starting to say these two boundaries, let them and let me, because that's going to show you, even in modern life, that you have power here and that's good news.
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slash onlove to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P dot com slash onlove. yeah that's great news and it's also The way that I interpret it personally, like with the lectum theory, is when I think about... Like a family system. One of the things, because when I, people don't really know this, but when I first started doing my coaching, I wanted to work with families primarily, and then it went more into romantic relationships.
But one of the things that I notice in a lot of family systems where there was struggle is a lack of. tolerance for diversity and what I mean by diversity is diversity of thinking diversity of belief diversity which is within the same realm as thinking just diversity and so It's not just let them be in a bad mood, but it's also let them, like you said, be who they are. And I don't, it's not my job or it's not your job, it's not anyone's job to try to make someone be more like you.
It's actually your job to have some tolerance tolerance and just sort of acceptance rather of who people are and so I sort of interpret or I integrate let them theory into that as well and I don't know if that's something that I think we should unpack this because here's what I want to say about that. The let them theory. is a tool that I really hope
brings you closer to people that you want to be closer with. Okay? And so I'm going to lay out a couple fundamental truths because what you're going to discover is I'm an incredibly pragmatic person. And. If I learn that something that I'm doing is actually backfiring or it's a waste of time, then I'm pretty quick to pivot a strategy because I'd rather...
deploy a way of showing up in life that's actually going to get me the result that I want, right? Yeah. So let's just take a scenario that everybody can probably relate to. You are in a family and everybody in your family
has different political beliefs. Let's just start with that one because I think everybody can probably relate to that whether it's immediate or extended family. Yeah. The only way we are going to move through where we are in society is if people can learn to talk to each other again. The problem with families is that we typically have systems in place where it's the most loud and bullying personality that actually dictates the tone in a family.
And before the let them theory, I was just like everybody else. You know, I got people in my family to have completely different political beliefs. None of us could actually have a civil conversation about it because the person with the most immature personality just and then the conversation's over and everybody sort of does one of these or we don't bring it up at all. And so what the let them theory taught me is this. Number one, you have to understand a fundamental truth. People only change
when they're ready to change for themselves. Yes. I'm going to say it again. People only change when they're ready to change for themselves. Second thing I'm going to tell you is that nobody changes their opinion unless they think it's their idea and it suddenly has personal relevance. And what I realized as I was researching let them and let me is, oh my God, I have literally worked against human nature my whole life.
I've tried to argue with people. I've tried to reason with people. I've tried to motivate people. I've tried to buy them things to change their mind. I've tried to...
point out the flaws in their argument. And what I learned conclusively in researching this book, talking to the world's leading neuroscientists, and this is a really important idea to understand, is that any attempt that you make to try to change somebody's mind or try to motivate them to either, let's just say lose weight, be more motivated at work, fill in the blank, whatever way you want somebody to change. anything you do.
that is directly trying to get someone else to change actually backfires neurologically. because the other person feels judgment and pressure from you even even when you're just trying to do it in a nice way you you you're buying somebody new running shoes hoping they're gonna go for a walk it's sort of like you don't think I know that I need like I could get your shoes and go for a walk don't tell me what to do
Everybody has that. And so if you accept as fact, I can't do this directly, I've got to be sneaky. Because I didn't say, I said you couldn't change people, I never said you couldn't influence them. Right. So here's how you use the let them theory. The let them theory requires you to be the smarter, the more mature, and the more forward-thinking person in your family, in your relationship at work.
Because you are now and forever going to understand, I can't change people, but I can influence them. And if I want to keep these people in my life, I got to understand that changing them is going to push them out of my life and just create frustration. So here's what you do. You let them have their beliefs. You let them be who they are. People change on their own timelines. They have their own beliefs. Their beliefs are usually deeply rooted.
in deeply personal experiences. Oftentimes, they're also deeply rooted in misinformation and headlines that aren't true and sensational garbage. Let them. Let them. You're not there to defend. You're not there to debate. You're going to let people have their opinions. But then here's where it gets interesting. Let me decide how I'm going to show up. Let me decide if I get triggered. Let me decide how much time and energy I'm going to pour into this relationship.
Because I said earlier that for a lot of us, it's the bully in the family that controls the family dynamic. I want you to consider something. You're more powerful than the bully. You're more powerful than the bully in your family because your energy actually has more power than the person that bulldozes everybody. Absolutely. The least reactive person in the family is the powerful person in the family. Correct.
And so you, as you're driving in, knowing that you're going to see this person that either has a narcissistic personality style or strongly held political beliefs or their... They even may have bigoted opinions based on the fact that they're 85 years old. Let them. When you know who you're driving in to see, something interesting happens.
You don't brace because you know exactly what you're dealing with. One of the reasons why there was so much tension for me and for a lot of people is because as you're going in, you hope it's different. You hope people are going to change. You hope it goes differently. Well, here's what I'm going to tell you. It will go differently if you're not bracing. It will go differently if you just let them and you don't react.
It will go differently if there comes a time where you just get up from the table and you don't participate in the conversation. It's amazing what happens. And here's the other thing. If you really want to change someone's opinion about something, then you have to be the mature one and say, why do you believe that? I've heard you say that a lot, but I'm just curious. What makes you feel that way? And when you get somebody else talking, the science is very clear.
they're actually more open to listening. And most of us are so afraid of these conversations because we can't handle our emotions and we don't realize that if we stay calm, we just let them, oh, there they go, they're doing their thing. This is where I remove myself because I don't engage in this. Or I'm actually in control of my emotions so I can ask you a question calmly about this and not get triggered.
Now you're in control. And when you don't take the bait, and when they don't get the same airtime and attention that they're used to getting, People tend to act out less. It's unbelievable how much power you have. And so, you know, I want you to understand, and this has happened in my family, you know, people love saying let them because you feel super, let them have their belief.
No, it's like, let them have their beliefs. They're an adult. They're allowed to believe what they believe, even if you vehemently disagree, even if it's offensive. Let them have their beliefs because they're allowed to have it. What you decide to do when you have a person like that in your life is very... personal There are a lot of people that have people in their family that do not accept them for who they are or for the person that they love.
And when I say let them, that doesn't mean you let people discriminate against your walk all over you. They're already doing that. When you say let them, you're recognizing somebody else's belief and how they show up in life is first of all beyond your control and not yours to manage. How you show up in life, let me. And whether or not you operate within your values.
And whether or not you speak up and say, you know, that's really hurtful. Did you really mean to hurt me that way? Could you say that? Like, do you want to say that again? Did you really mean to say something that cruel to me? Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. See, we don't. We don't hold space for ourselves and stand in our power. And when you start to do that, it's wild how your energy shifts people. Look, it might not change people's opinion.
It changes the dynamic, which changes the relationship, which makes you feel more in control, and that's what's liberating. And it's also liberating to be able to have
close relationships with important people in your life even though you don't agree with them. And that's really important too. Well, and you know why? I'll tell you why. Because we want our elders to respect our opinions and believe the same thing we do, but we're not willing to lean in and go, why might my otherwise amazing grandparent have this really offensive point of view? And I write about this in the book that people have very personal frames of references. It does not make it right.
It doesn't. But until you lean in and go, okay, if I can understand that in most of your life, You're actually a very kind and amazing person, except for when you see certain types of people. You say things that just are horrible. Why would you do that? What happened to you in your life that makes you believe those things? And what I've found in my life is that when you create space for people to have the dignity of their own experience, you also create space for them to change.
because it's their idea. Like, there's so many people that have had experiences. I mean, my mom hated my husband when I got engaged to him and did not want me to marry him. And I wish I had had the let them theory because it created so much distance and friction in our relationship for a decade. It wasn't until I kind of leaned in and was like, why do you feel the way you feel?
And I learned that she hated him because he was from the East Coast and she believed that I would move away and never return home and she'd never see me. And you know what? She was right. That's what happened. And so the irony is underneath her belief, was actually fear. Yes. Not judgment. And so I think that there's a lot of instances in life where we've gotten so polarized. Polarized. I can't even say the damn word. No, you said it. You said it. You said it.
I think if you want to be the mature one you have the power to actually change people's belief. through your example and the way you live your life. I'll give you the research on this because I think this is critical. And you can apply this whether you're talking about family members and politics or let's say you're in a relationship with somebody and they've left themselves go.
They're not exercising. Maybe they've lost their job. They're unmotivated or they used to be motivated and now they're not that motivated. And you're like, oh, like, come on. Here's the science on how to use your influence. This comes from Dr. Tolly Sherritt at King's College London. Let's say that you and I are working together and every day at lunch you shut your laptop and you go outside for a walk. And I'm sitting there.
Right? Yes. And a half an hour later, you come back. And you look refreshed. You never even say anything to me. You don't invite me to go. Nothing. Well, a couple weeks are going to go by and I'm going to watch you do this every damn day. And I'm going to see that you look refreshed. And then one of these days, you want to know something interesting?
I am literally going to be typing and I'll look outside and I'm going to see it tonight's day. I'm going to go, you know, I should go for a walk. Now, here's the funny thing. I don't think it's your idea. I think it's mine. Yes. You don't even realize it's unconscious. Correct. Yeah. And so your example and how you show up
And not pressuring people, but giving them the dignity of where they're at if you want them to change for the better. It actually creates the space for them to do it without getting the, I told you so. This episode is sponsored by Blueland. Blueland was founded by a mom who needed cleaning products that met high standards so her kids could grow up in a home and on a planet that's healthier and safer.
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It's not just about, you know, they're the problem, I don't need to control them. It's maybe my need to control everything in this relationship. is what's causing more problems than anything else. And so if I let them and then let me I'm actually not just leading by example, which I am by the way, but I'm making the necessary changes that I have to make to be the kind of person I want to be in this dynamic.
I think you're brilliant. I think you're brilliant. I'm going to push back on something. Okay, good. Let's do it. Aren't we always part of the problem? Yes, we are. And I guess why I'm bringing this up is that... that thing that can happen where we can say, let them, And it's like,
We feel vindicated and they're the problem. And we're also talking about it through the lens of how to deal with a difficult person in our life, which is so incredibly important because I think that one of the hardest things that people struggle with is How do I deal? How do I communicate? How can I stay in relationship with someone who can be the bully?
Or who can be the person who's more immature than me? How do I do that? But then also looking into... Well, you missed an important step. Okay, which is what? Do you want to stay in a relationship with this person? Well, yes, that's important. And I'm serious. It seems like I'm kind of being like a smarty pants, but no, I'm serious.
You actually do have a choice. Yes. And a lot of people will say, well, it's my mom or it's the parent of my kids or whatever. You always have a choice. And so the first thing is understanding I am choosing. To be in a relationship with a person who has a very difficult personality. And because of X, Y, Z. And I am also accepting that they are who they are and they are not changing. and even so I am choosing
to be in this relationship with them. And because I know they're not changing, I have to look at how I'm changing. So that this relationship is actually either more tolerable or more enjoyable for me. Absolutely. Yeah. Right? Because I think part of it is we don't give up.
And this goes for the big things and the little things. Like if you look at any romantic relationship, and I'm sure you know this better than anybody else, like 90% of the stuff that couples I'm sure come to you about aren't changing. It's kind of learning how to live with something and it's appealing to your partner that this matters enough that I want you to make an effort and change. And if you are talking to somebody like you and you're working on your relationship and you have said,
When you don't do the dishes, I feel like the maid. I feel like we got a dog because you wanted it and now I'm the one that takes care of it. Like you never flatten the cardboard boxes. You're constantly running, like all those things. If somebody explains that to you. And you explain to them that when they don't try to build this skill, that helps you feel like you're seen and loved and that this is something that you need. If they don't do it, let them, because they're revealing.
that this isn't a priority. And then it comes back to you again. Do I want to choose to be in a relationship where I've literally said to somebody this matters to me and they're sort of eye rolling at it? Which again, doesn't make it fair. But it makes you realize, okay, my power is actually in deciding that I'm going to let this go because this person doesn't change or this actually matters enough that this isn't the relationship for me. Right.
You've been married a long time. How long? 29 years? Mm-hmm. Yeah, and you have three children. Yes. All grown up. Well, you know, it depends on the day. I know, exactly. Okay. I don't know how old they are, but they're not toddlers. I'm assuming, but maybe they are. Some days they act like it. Which I want to get to after this.
This process of writing this book, which took a lot of research and I'm assuming a ton of integration into your personal way of being, how has it impacted both your marriage and your relationship with your children? oh my god great question um i You know what they always say about second marriages? Second marriages are incredible, particularly when it's with the first person. And I feel that the let them theory has created a second marriage for me and Chris. And I say that because
We are both very introspective people. We've had our ups and downs, our horrible moments, our wonderful moments, and everywhere in between. And what the let them theory taught me is something that I've always wanted to be able to do, but never actually knew how to apply it in a relationship in real time. Because let's face it,
The people that you love the most drive you fucking crazy. I think that family is in place to teach you how to love somebody you hate at times. Yes. And the people that use the let them theory more than anyone else on the...
Planet are probably my children and my husband because I'm overwhelming and disorganized and annoying and Even when you love somebody their behavior is going to stress you out and frustrate you and it just that's that's life And so what's been beautiful in my marriage about using let them and let me is it's really forced me to create this separation between my expectations of creation. and what I wish or want him to be doing or who he is and actually who he is.
Like it's taught me to really love the man. as he is and as he isn't. It's taught me how to not get flooded with frustration and emotion and then vomit it at him. It's taught me to slow down and when I say, let him. Let him forget to do that thing I asked. Let him be late for this thing, which he usually isn't. Let him ask a bazillion questions and be a slow processor which drives me crazy or used to.
It creates a space where I'm forced to see him. I'm forced to hold space for him. I'm forced to assume good intent. without rushing to judgment. And the let me part has really made me focus on what you've already talked about, which is what's my role in this situation or what's my role in making this thing that's frustrating me better. And so it's given me tools to both create space where I can be myself, Chris can be himself, I can love him exactly as he is and exactly as he isn't.
without forcing him to change? I stop myself from barking and snapping and sending stupid texts that I would regret later. I see him with so much more compassion and grace, and I actually feel... him doing the same thing for me. I really do. I would imagine so because when we can do that, we create so much more space for appreciation for who the person is. And even if you never say the words, I appreciate you, we are energetic animals. Like, we can feel it.
And we can feel when our partner, spouse, whatever, is appreciating us more. Like we can feel. when they are feeling more loving towards us versus feeling more hate towards us. And then that just opens us up. I love that you said feeling more hate towards us. How many of us have come home from a stressful day at work and you take it out on the most important people in the world? Totally.
And then I would apologize. I'm so sorry for being a jerk. It's a really stressful day, traffic. And I don't feel that a stressful day at work or traffic is an excuse. to be rude or take it out on people that you care about. In fact, I think it should be the opposite. And so the let them theory, I was the tornado that used to come in. I was the person that was always running late. I was the person that would allow work to get to me and then I'd come home and vomit on my family.
And because I was stressed out and immature in my emotions, I was the one that you're talking about where if I had asked Chris to do something and he had gotten busy or distracted and he didn't do it, I'd then feel this sense of like, and then i'll be sending the text Instead of just going, let him. Let him not have done this thing. And then that calms me down.
It creates this space where grace and compassion and assuming good intent. And then I can have the conversation. Hey, what happened? You know, I had asked you to do that thing and I noticed it didn't happen. And now we have a conversation and I learned that like he got a call from somebody whose mother died. And so I feel that there is this space that gets created, and the same is true with my kids. The way that it has changed me and my children is that it has forced me to apply life.
saving and life-changing advice from a man by the name of Dr. Stuart Ablon. You should absolutely get him on the show. I'll try. He is a psychologist at Mass General Brigham. He has run a program called Think Kids for 30 years. And his thesis is, if somebody's not doing well in life, It's not a matter of willpower. It's a matter of skills that are missing. Like people do well when they can. And with kids in particular, we are so quick.
I am anyway, to swoop in and try to fix everything or solve problems that I have never taken an approach, let them. where you create this space for people to have the dignity of their own experience with your support. And so Dr. Stuart Avalon taught me to basically change the way I parent.
which is to take this approach that he calls with them, which means your kids are smarter than you think. If your kids are not doing well in school, they know. If your kids are struggling on their sports team, they're aware. If your friend is struggling with their health, they know if they have a few extra pounds. They don't need our reminder. In fact, they put so much pressure on themselves. Here's a life-changing idea. Everybody wants to thrive. In fact, the person that's working the hardest
At work is the person who's about to get fired at work because they know they're not doing well. The person who is working hardest in the classroom is not the kid getting A's, it's the person getting D's. The person, the friend of yours that's working hardest on their house isn't the one at the gym every day making videos.
It's the person who's given up on themselves. And so if you understand that people are already wanting to succeed and they either feel so discouraged that it's not going to work, which is why they're not doing it. Or they feel like it's not going to work for them, so why am I trying? So when we all march in there and we're like, you should look for a job. It just adds more pressure and shame, which is why people shut down.
What the let them theory taught me in my relationships with my kids, with my colleagues, with my friends, with my parents who are getting older, is taking this with them approach. where you don't assume anything. You let people be where they are. You let people heal on their own timelines. You let people change when they're ready. And you actually take a roll on the sideline with your arm around you. Basically just go, so...
How do you feel about this? Have you thought about what you might want to do? Tell me how I could support or not support. And that's it. And when you give people and you let people... truly have the space. to guide their own paths forward. It's shocking. What happens? I mean, I've seen this work with my son who is not motivated in school at all.
And it flipped him from being not motivated at all, hating school, avoiding homework, playing video games, to actually caring about schoolwork. Because I asked him for the first time, what would you like to do about this? It's worked with people in my life that are feeling beaten down in their careers and on the sidelines. I'm like, why does this idiot not just get a job? Like, his boss is a jerk. Like, why are you staying in this job?
Hey how do you feel about work? Have you thought about what you might want to do? Is there anything I can do to support? And so I love let them because when you say let them, it forces you to give people this space. And it forces you to see that people are infinitely capable of changing. And if we get out of the way and we approach it differently, nine times out of ten they do because people want to do well. Yes, and even if they don't, that is okay. Let them because that's their path.
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And who's to say that we know what's best for someone else anyway at the end of the day? Because maybe they have very, very important lessons that they need to learn that we all have to learn the hard way. So I think that's a really important lesson in where we are not... We are not the expert of another person. And we can't dictate their path. It's a really great point. And the reason why we want to be experts is because if we have all the answers,
then we feel safer and we stop worrying. Yes, of course. It's our way to feel like, okay, I can solve this. Yes. One of the hardest things in the world, particularly when you have somebody that you care about who's struggling, whether it's a partner who's drinking too much or it is a parent who is failing in health, or it's a kid who's struggling in school, or it's a friend that keeps dating one asshole after another, is
Letting them. Letting somebody have the dignity of their own experience while you're trying to support from the sideline. It's very difficult. It's very difficult. But what I love about what we're talking about, especially when it comes to parents, is...
And your example with your mom initially not liking your husband and whatnot, we never that when that person when we feel like that person has a belief or whatever they're being challenging or difficult we never if we can if we can let them then what we give space to is the possibility of hearing the fear that's beneath what we perceive to be difficult. And that's actually what creates closeness between individuals. It's okay.
I'm not just going to assume that you don't like my husband or whatever because you're just mean or whatever, you're a nightmare. I'm going to find out that actually what's happening is that you're terrified. Because a lot of people don't even know. They don't even know. We have such strong beliefs.
and we can be so judgmental and what's the judgment is actually cloaking is a deeper fear And if we can actually, part of, I think, raising our emotional intelligence, which I think is a large part of what your book sort of underscores, even if it doesn't say that. specifically is if you let them, then you actually can have a conversation, a productive conversation. in which you can maybe uncover something that you never thought was there. And I don't know.
Well, I think that what's missing in today's world is compassion. Yeah, great. And kind of really holding space for two things to be true at once. that somebody can be really, really killing it at work. and be really struggling with their drinking at home. Yes. And you may see that they're a wonderful dad or a wonderful partner. But there's this one area of their life where they're horrendous. Two things can be true at once.
And it's very difficult when you realize that you can't actually make another person change or heal or get sober. They're only going to do that when they're ready to do that for themselves. And there's a reason. It's hard work to change. And so you may bully somebody into doing something once.
But the lasting change comes when somebody is so ready to do the work. I remember when we were researching the book, one of the experts said, that people only get sober when being drunk is harder than doing the work you're avoiding. to get sober. Yes, that's very true. And it's true about anything. People only get in shape when sitting on the couch and not taking care of yourself is more painful.
Because there's a certain amount of pain, and you referred to this earlier, there's a certain amount of pain that is part of the experience and the lessons that people need to feel ready to do the very difficult work. to change their life in one way or another. And everybody's capable of it. And I didn't realize how much I was stomping all over.
the dynamic by stepping in and solving and pressuring and trying to motivate which only bumped up against somebody's sense that i need to be in control of when i do this so back the fuck off yeah i didn't even i wasn't even aware of it and and so i have really changed and i think a lot of it too is I just have a lot more compassion and grace. I think it's easy to talk about it, that people are going through a lot, but I actually believe that in my soul. and not taking on the weight of the world.
and not making it my job to make everybody happy. Not making it my job. to make sure everybody's taken care of. not making it my job to make sure everybody's expectations are met. Like if I have to make a decision to stay in and not go to somebody's birthday party, if I'm going to stay home and not travel to see my folks, if I'm going, and vice versa, if they're not able to make it, let them.
mm-hmm let them people are allowed to be disappointed when you don't do things people are allowed to be sad they'll get over it don't move through it let them have their feelings and as long as you're making decisions that align with your value and you're a good person and you're trying hard not to make decisions that negatively impact people. At least that's not your intent.
I think like nine times out of ten, this really, really, really works. It's unbelievable. What are some of the things that you bump up against? In the coaching that you're doing, where you see that you mentioned people-pleasing, Are there things that you want to unpack further based on what people write in about or that you see when you're coaching people? And this ties into the question that I was going to ask you, which is,
How has it, if at all, changed or influenced your compassion for yourself? Because at the end of the day, what people really struggle with in the work that I do is feeling enough in themselves. and self-acceptance. And so this process of letting them and accepting, I can't control anyone else. How then does it influence a person's own relationship with themselves in terms of their own self-acceptance and self-love? Because you are a force and you've created a lot.
and I would imagine, and correct me if I'm wrong, that my guess, and I could be totally off, and I guess this just because I've had to struggle with this too, that you have struggled with like... negative self-talk. Oh my God. And being really hard on yourself. Of course. Because one, that's just not my intuition. You're very candid about that in your work.
So, and anyone who achieves at a high level, I think, has at some point in their journey, and I really would love to know your view on this, has struggled with the need to prove themselves in some way. And so when you asked me about unpacking in the people that I work with, Ultimately, when I peel away the onion is how can I actually forgive myself? How can I actually be kinder to myself? How can I love myself?
So the way that the let them theory has fundamentally changed the way that I talk to myself and the way that I feel about myself. is that I didn't realize that in order to take control of my life and in order to feel more powerful, Personally, not powerful like I'm like some, but just like... Empowered. Empowered, thank you. In order to feel more empowered. You have to first stop giving your power to everybody else. Yeah. You can't get sober until you stop drinking.
And you can't take control of your own life until you stop trying to control what everybody around you thinks. And one of the reasons why... I was so critical of myself is because I had given the power of approval and the power of my worth to the opinions and moods of other people. And if you are somebody that is worried about what other people think about you, if you navigate your day to day life based on other people's moods and expectations, you have given the
center of your self-worth to something you will never be able to control. Yeah. Because you will never be able to insure. That somebody has a positive thought about you. Even when you bend over backwards. And you... Try to make it to your friend's 38th birthday party and there's going to be 17 people there and you didn't want to go and you go anyway, but then you sit at the other end.
Your friend's still annoyed because you didn't look like you were having a good time. So even when you do that, it doesn't guarantee what somebody else is going to think. And so everybody, including me, has outsourced their self-worth. to other people's opinions. And I can tell you this because the moment you start saying let them,
Let them misunderstand me. Let them not like this thing I just posted on social media. Let them judge. Let them gossip. Let them do this. Let them, whatever. You feel peace. and you feel relief Because for the first time in your life, you're actually experiencing what it's like to take your power back and not have somebody else's opinion of you define whether or not you're worthy. So that's step one. And I don't think you recognize I didn't.
how much power I had placed in other people's opinions and moods until I stopped doing it. Yeah.
And then what happens when you start saying let them and you catch yourself. Every time you post on social media now, you're going to notice that you need to say let them because as you go to put a filter on, Or you go to put emojis in the caption or you try a different photo or then you hit draft and save because you like burn through so much energy stressing about how people are going to react to the thing that you're about to post.
You're going to realize all of those saved drafts are the graveyard of your self-expression. That's you not owning what you want to say or what you want to post on your own damn social media channel. So as you start to say, let them, let them, let them, every time you pull that lever, you are recognizing that person's opinion of me does not hold power over who I am. I hold power over who I am. And so that part's incredible because you're going to be startled.
by how often you have counted on somebody else's opinion mood or expectation and given it more weight than what you actually feel or want to do. Yes. So that's step one. And the more that you say that, the more you take the power back. And the more you say, let me. You're actually like a nice friend putting your arm around yourself and going, let me remind myself this social media channel is mine. If people want to unfollow me, let them.
If people don't understand the business I'm now writing about, let them. If people want to gossip, judge or what, let them. Let me use this channel to launch my business. Let me. use this channel to follow who I want, to use it how I see fit, because I get to choose. It's my life. And... If I'm proud of myself, then it doesn't really matter what other people think because I know why I do things and what my intention is. And so it takes time.
But by using these two boundaries and training myself to stop reflexively thinking about somebody's mood or thinking about what they're going to think or thinking about it and being like, fuck it, let them. What am I doing? Let me just do the thing I want to do. The more you actually feel empowered and the more the critical self-taught, because here's the interesting thing. When you really start to use this I want you to pay attention.
Notice that the criticism is almost like a protection. It's like an offensive mood. that's trying to protect you from screwing up As you try to anticipate what other people are going to think. Like if you've ever laid awake in the morning and thought about a text that you sent or what you did at that party last night. or you wish you hadn't have said that. All of that is driven by the fear of what other people are going to think about what you did. Yes. Let them.
Because first of all, it's already happened. And second, you can never control what they're going to think about the text or about what you did at the party. And your power is really in, well, first of all, what do you think about it? And if there's something to say, then say it. Don't worry about what they're going to think.
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Yeah, and most of the time we create a story in our head that makes it much more dramatic and bigger than it actually is. So I think it releases us. And I think that everything you just said is so spot on, especially with dating. Because that's a really, I want to be respectful and mindful of your time. But dating is a big one, I think, especially for women, wanting to be enough, trying to get the person who's showing signs that they're not that interested.
What's powerful is accepting that they're not interested and not trying to change someone's mind and not seeing your worth through their eyes. That's let them. It is. And the hardest thing about dating is actually accepting somebody's behavior as the truth. Yeah, for sure. There is no confusing behavior. See, people's behavior is very black and white.
It's true. Like, well, if somebody wants to see you, they're going to actually ask to see you. Yes. There are no games. There are things that we make up in our head because we wish. things were progressing faster or we wish we were at a different level or we wish somebody were actually treating us differently and so instead of being in the reality of the situation you're in You live in a fantasy in your head making excuses for behavior that is wildly unattractive.
and that is likely not going to change. And so you chase this potential of the fantasy instead of really being in the reality of what is so. And that's what gets everybody in trouble. And look, is dating toxic? I'm sure it is. The apps have done no, like, the apps are not helping at all. But here's another thing. Take a look at your filters. Have you Frankensteined some person that doesn't actually exist?
So you're now playing into the selection process. Oh, I'm not going to have somebody that's this tall. And I can't have somebody that's more than five miles away. And I only want somebody that makes this kind of thing. Which is ridiculous. Yeah, it's completely ridiculous. And so also not understanding that the purpose of dating is actually not to find the singular person. The purpose of dating is to have experiences that teach you what's attractive and what's not.
It's to train you to see behavior as data. that allows you to understand what you actually want and deserve and what feels good to you. Yes. You're not trying to insert yourself into somebody else's life. You're trying to learn more about yourself so that you invite. the right person into yours and then you co-create something. And so I think there is an epidemic
of explaining away bad behavior. An epidemic of bitching about what other people are doing and not looking in the mirror and going, wait a minute, I keep texting and hanging around with this guy that is not wanting to commit and slinking out the door like a cat in the morning and only wants to text but never wants to meet up or only wants to have sex when they're in my town.
The problem isn't them, it's you. Because you're actually putting up with this shit. Instead of saying, wait a minute, the more time I spend with this person, who's clearly not interested in anything more than sex, The longer it's going to take me to meet somebody who's actually attractive and additive in my life. And so enough. Enough. I hear that. And that is so true. Final question.
Now that it's been some time that the book has been out and you've finished writing it, is there anything that you've learned? Because I would imagine in writing this, there's a whole process, but then... Sort of like the post-production process of it all. And as you integrate it more into your life, is there anything that you learned even more about this theory that's not in the book, but something that you want to share?
That's a great question. Honestly, the thing about it that's really interesting is that The rules about relationships and human behavior are very black and white. They really are. It really is simple. you can never make someone else change. And truly the secret to a happy, healthy relationship is learning how to choose and love people as they are. and focus on shifting aspects of yourself that shift the dynamic and energy because that's the only person in the relationship.
that you truly have control over. And it's really difficult because you will start saying let them and you're going to be in situations where the more you say let them whether it's with a parent or it's with an adult child or it's with a colleague or it's with somebody that you've been married to or you've been dating for a long time and you start saying let them and you give them space.
reveal very quickly who they are when you stop gaslighting yourself and telling yourself stories about the way that you wish that they would be. And then you can go to let me. Correct. And that's the hard part. Yeah. Because if you take on face value that you'll never be able to make this person change. Can you learn how to adjust yourself to have this person in your life or to live with this?
The 80% that you've got, is this the stuff that actually matters? And the things that irritate the hell out of you are the 20% of things that people obsess over that really aren't that important. And they're going to be there. I'm always probably going to run late. I am going to be messy. My bathroom sink is going to look like somebody tipped over an aisle at Walmart. And my husband is going to look like you're at a fancy resort and there's nothing on it.
And when everything else is falling into place, that should not be the deal breaker. Well, for some people it might be. It might be, yeah. And that's okay. But really understanding. What are the things that are driving you crazy and stressing you out about this person? And recognizing that they could change, but let's just assume they're not going to.
Can you love them as they are? Because I think one of the worst things you can do is be in a relationship with somebody secretly wishing they were different. Oh, the worst. And it's horrible to be the recipient of that. Because not only is it horrible for you to wish that they were different, but they're miserable too. And when you get to that point, though, where you are seeing somebody, maybe even for the first time, this is who this person is.
They are going to play golf all weekend for the rest of their life. That's what they love to do. Let them. I can say what I need to say. There will be compromises. But can I accept it? Because ultimately you get to choose what relationships you stay in, which ones you end.
how much energy you pour into things, what you don't, what's worth being upset about and talking about and what are the things that you need to let go because at the end of the day, this just is who this person is. And what I have found personally is that you are going to find that there are friends and family members and people that you may be in a relationship with.
That once you really force yourself to see that this is who this person is, I'm going to have the conversations about the way their behavior impacts me and then I'm going to let them. And then I'm going to see that they don't care. You're going to find yourself in situations where now it's back on you. Am I going to end this? Am I going to adjust this? Or am I going to learn to live with this and really appreciate what I have?
You know, it's not easy when you say, I'm going to end this. And it's not easy when you have to say, I'm going to address this, because I want you to be with somebody. that listens to you and makes an effort and changes, but not everybody does. And that's why these things that everybody's going to wrestle with are so personal, but I love that the tools are so simple. Because it's easy to get frustrated and feel hurt and be emotional, and God knows I have forever, and I still do.
But this helps me really slice through what can I control? What can't I control? Where is my power? Where isn't my power? How am I going to respond? What am I going to choose to do? And that is why I just feel fundamentally different because of this thing. That's incredible. Thank you so much for joining me today and for talking about this incredible book. And I just want to honor you and just... It's so clear how hard you work and how passionate you are.
and how much you care about the things that you do and care and have so much integrity behind the things that you do. So I just really want to honor you for that and to thank you for being you and for your contribution and for being here today. Well, thank you. I really appreciate that. There have been so many times in my life where I just didn't know any better.
And I wanted to do better. I wanted to feel better. I wanted to get out of toxic patterns in relationships. And I just didn't know how. And I think what drives me is, you know, in those moments, if somebody had just shared a little nugget or Shown a spotlight on the thing that I could do that would help me see the pattern it would have saved me years Even decades
heartache of headaches that have caused myself other people that I didn't intend to and so I guess I just feel like if I can save anybody those headaches and heartaches that I and the pain that I caused myself because I didn't know I think that's what really drives everything that I do. Because it's so easy to tell yourself that you're stuck. It's easy to tell yourself you'll never find love again. It's easy to tell yourself that you just blew it.
It's easy to feel like you're the one that's the problem. And if you don't actually know, The real problem underneath the thing that's frustrating you, you'll never fix it. And so to me, shining a light on other people's work and... Really digging into the research to try to go, well, how does a normal person apply this shit? That's nice in theory, but how do we apply it? It's really... in service of knowing just how many of us just get in our own way because we don't actually know.
the thing that's got us stuck and so I really appreciate you saying that and thank you. Thank you. Where can people find you, Mel? Right here. Right here. Listen to this podcast. No, just listen to this podcast. You just found us. You don't have to buy the book. You don't have to read the book. You literally got everything.
that you needed to get started using this. And it's really important to understand that if you're using the let them theory and you just say let them, you will feel a little lonely. you will start to feel a little isolated. And that's a sign that you're not using it correctly because you can't forget the let me part because that's where you take the power back. And you start to use it to shift.
the way you're showing up, to shift your energy, to shift your responses. And if you think about the word responsibility and taking responsibility for your life or taking responsibility for creating the love you deserve in your life, Responsibility is just the ability to respond. And so Let Them and Let Me is going to help you respond to people who treat you in ways that are less than what you find attractive or deserve.
It's going to help you recognize what you actually want and to ask for it because people aren't mind readers. And there's a lot of amazing people out there that would be extraordinary to be in a relationship with. And another mistake that we make is we don't let people know what we need. We don't give them feedback on their behavior. We silently judge and stew. And that was another thing that kind of changed my marriage is letting him know.
Not when I'm pissed off and stressed out, but letting him know in a way that's very respectful. And so there are so many ways you can use this. And I'm just really excited to see like what.
the person listening or watching this does with this information and the way that you've kind of pulled it apart and dug a little deeper as to what's going on and why we are all feeling overwhelmed right now and why everybody feels so stressed and how it's impacting relationships and the fact that there's simple things you can do.
So thank you. Yeah, well, thank you. I'm so excited for people to read it if they have not already and also to check out your podcast where you interview all these incredible experts. Thank you, Mel. Thank you. Billion on Love is a Q-Code production, executive produced by David Henning and Steve Wilson, produced and edited by Travis Howe. Music by Will Tendi. Med Verisures nya hemlarm börjar säkerheten vid din dörr. Lockar digitalt dörrlås gör att dörren alltid är skyddad med schemalagglåsning.
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