¶ Intro / Opening
I'm Maddie Orton and you're listening to the Jersey Arts Podcast . Broadway icon Norm Lewis is known for a lot of things . Breaking barriers as the first African-American Phantom in Phantom of the Opera on Broadway , lending his stunning baritone to the roles of , T , odd , Porgy and Javert , playing Senator Edison Davis on the hit TV show Scandal .
The list goes on and on . But you may not know that the Emmy , Grammy , tony and SAG Award nominee works just as hard behind the scenes as an activist and founding member of Black Theater United . On September 20th , Norm Lewis will sing at Mayo Performing Arts Center to kick off Mayo Pack's 30th season .
So we grabbed the opportunity to chat with him about his upcoming concert career highlights , black Theatre United and one of his first-ever professional gigs , which just so happened to be at Jersey's own Harrah's Atlantic City . Take a listen . Thank you so much for joining me , Norm Lewis . I'm a longtime fan of yours and this is just such a privilege .
Oh , thank you , I'm honored . Thank you for having me .
So you'll be coming to Mayo PA on September 20th for the theater's 30th annual opening night and I cannot wait
¶ Early Career & Harrah's Atlantic City
to talk about that . But first I want to back up a little bit . This is not obviously your first show in New Jersey , but one of the first professional gigs you ever did , I think , was playing Protean in Forum at Harrah's in Atlantic City .
Yeah , we call them the proteins . It was my second job in New York , so what happened was I moved from Florida , I worked in advertising for a long time for a newspaper down in Orlando and finally got into this world of theater and my first gig was at the Candlewood Playhouse in Connecticut . But then I ended up auditioning for get this Nipsey Russell .
I don't know if you know that you might be too young for that .
I do know that name .
Yeah , so for those people who don't know who by name , who Nipsey Russell is , he was the tin man in The Wiz the movie with Diana Ross and Michael Jackson , so , but he had a life before that . He was a comedian who did a lot of game shows . He was also on a show called car 54 .
So he had a history and he was playing Pseudolus in this New Jersey casino Harris Casino version Of the show . Now the show is usually around Two and a half to three hours , but we condensed it down to To 90 minutes . What they do .
And actually , when Vegas ended up Getting shows like that , they would make them 90 minutes long so that way they can get people back out on the casino floor , you know what I mean , Right that makes sense . There was no like first act , second act . You just saw the show and you get out .
That makes sense . Yeah , same reason . There's no like clocks or anything .
Yeah , exactly . So it was fun . I did it for about six months and , yeah , I had my taste of Jersey . I was a Jersey for a while .
That sounds like a fun place . I mean , what do you do when you're like living in a casino and like working in a ? Is that ? Is that a fun experience or is that just like very ? I can't even imagine .
Well , for me , I mean , I was so excited . I was young I mean relatively young , I was older than a lot of people who had just moved to New York , but I was youngish . It's still in my 20s , my late 20s and I ended up working something I was excited about .
I was doing a musical theater show , singing and dancing , and I was working with someone I admired Nip . Have any bills . They would feed you so you could go in and you could eat any time of day at the casino . They put us up in this really beautiful townhouse community called Brigantine Island , which was not that far .
Oh yeah , that's great .
And so it was the good life . For six months I had a good time .
Oh man , that sounds like a dream .
Yeah , truly , truly .
So this was not, theater was not your first job . You started in marketing . I think we're all very grateful that you transitioned into theater . What made you go a different route initially and how did you end up moving over ?
I majored in business in college and so I was working for the newspaper already while I was still in school . And then I worked , I moved from the production department . Basically , the production department is where you put the newspaper into the machine , it opens up and then coupons or different sections of the newspaper fall in . So I did that for a while .
Then I moved , there was a position in marketing that opened up so I took that job and then maybe six or so many months later , because I was someone who worked in the marketing department , I was close to the advertising department , so they said there's a position open for classified sales .
So I went over there and did telephone sales and then moved up to like telemarketing and then ended up doing a little bit of outside sales before I quit and got into musical theater .
What made you decide to take the leap , cause that's , that's kind of it's a really scary leap to make , I'm sure .
Well , I was always told that I had a nice voice , and then I ended up doing little gigs Like I was , even though I was majoring in business in school , I may . I was still in the choir and did a little bit of theater in college , and so I stayed close to it .
After that , even working from my nine to five , I would do contests at night at different bars and I would sing here , sing there . Sometimes you would win , sometimes you'd lose .
What was your go-to song ?
God I ended up doing . I took two Stevie Wonder songs for once in my life and what was the other one ? Oh Jesus , why can't I think of the other one ? Oh my God , it'll come back to me in a minute .
Well , to be fair , you probably haven't had to audition in a long time , so that's you know , I get that Right .
But you know , in fact , in fact I got really into church hopping back in the day , so that was back when a lot of the contemporary Christian music was very theatrical and I started following people like Lorna Harris and a guy named Steve Green .
But I used to love just like Kristen Chenoweth would say , I loved this woman by the name of Sandy Patty and Sandy Patty had this beautiful type Christian music but it was really dramatic . So I even brought in to some of the bars . I sang some of her songs .
She had a jazz one that was really cool and there was another one that was that was cool and I won a couple of contests with that song .
So that is so great . Yeah , I wonder if that's contests with that song . So that is so great . Yeah , I wonder if that's the audience for that . But I love it .
It wasn't . It wasn't , but it was the fact that I had some of my friends that would come from work and then also people were drunk and they were like you know they , they were like I guess I was a showman , so I kind of got them . Yeah , you know , anyway , that's a whole . Nother , that's a whole nother I love it .
Did you grow up doing theater ?
No , no , I didn't get into theater until later in life . I didn't know I could sing until I was 16 .
Oh my gosh , I can't imagine that .
So it was . You know the journey of that . I'm sure people , a lot of people , have heard this already , but I sang in church , so let me just try this . I'll try to be in the choir in school . It'll be an easy grade , I'll meet some girls , it'll be fun .
And it turned out to be my aha moment , because it was the first time I'd ever really was surrounded by these voices that sounded so beautiful that singing classical music . I never sang classical music . I heard it but I never sang it . And you know I grew up singing gospel or R&B , you know , in my household .
So it was just my cathartic moment of like , oh , this is really something .
So what can people
¶ Mayo PAC Concert
expect from your upcoming concert at Mayo Pack ?
Ah , I guess , my love of theater . You know I entered into this industry by musical theater . My foray into it was actually in high school , when I got like really into it .
Someone suggested I go and check out a couple of albums and one of them was the Wiz , oh sure , and so that definitely is the show and the musical that resonates with me so passionately , because Stephanie Mills and Andre De Shields and you know that entire cast , you know hit and battle actually . God rest his soul .
Yeah , but it was one of those things where you go , wow , I know this story just from the movie that preceded it with Judy Garland , but this is told in a way that I truly get . So , yeah , it's my journey through the musical theater world but also other music that influenced me over the years .
That's great . Do you do a song from the Wiz ?
I do , I do .
Are we going to say what it is ? We don't have to no .
No , we can say . I mean I usually do the song home because it just you know , and I've actually put it on . Now I sound like I'm sound like a salesman . But I put it on my second album , my Christmas album , even though it's not a Christmas song . It just felt right .
Yeah , you know , I love that , I also that , that album has my kid listens to mean old lion .
That was one of his first musical theaters .
He's only two and a half , but he has a lion towel that he wears when he gets out of the bathtub Right . And the only way I can get him out of the bathtub is , if we like , dance and sing to mean old lion .
Yeah , yeah .
Actually , one of your songs is another one of his first musical theater songs is I Used to Sing , I'd Rather Be Sailing to Him from A New Brain which is a bit of a deep cut , but I think just like one of the most beautiful songs .
Yeah , yeah , bill Finn did a great job on that song , that's just a gorgeous , gorgeous song and almost completely kid appropriate . I changed a couple of lyrics .
Yeah , yeah , yeah , but otherwise otherwise perfect .
Yes , yes .
¶ Black Theatre United & Activism
Just a few months back , at the 2024 NAACP Theater Awards , you received a Lifetime Achievement Award and you're also a founding member of Black Theater United a Lifetime Achievement Award , and you're also a founding member of Black Theater United . You've , very notably , broken barriers as the first person of color to play Phantom in Phantom of the Opera .
What role does activism play in your life and your career ?
Well , it's interesting that you bring all that up , because I think activism has always been a part of my life , whether I knew it or not .
You know , just by showing up in the room that was , I was given the greatest advice by someone who was a veteran , who wasn't , you know , a person of color , but he was someone that said just show up unless they specifically asked for blonde hair and blue eyes . Just let them tell you no .
I love that .
So that was one thing , but it became apparent especially when I was either the only one or one of two or three that was in the room . It wasn't so much that I was actively being an activist , but I was just trying to be someone who was of equal stature and showing that and just gaining that respectability .
The NAACP award was just totally out of left field and I was very honored because I think of myself still as that 20 something year old that moved to New York , you know , back in 1989 .
But yeah , I mean , people have come up to me over the years and have said things such as oh wow , you are the reason why I'm in theater , or I've really watched you and listened to you and , you know , emulated you and respected you , and so that means a lot . So I try to keep that sort of reputation .
That's for me , reputation is more important than talent . But then , as far as Black Theatre United , you know that came about at a because of some horrible I can't even say it horrible circumstances in 2020 .
Obviously , we're in the pandemic , all the murders that were happening and obviously the George Floyd thing , and a lot of people felt a certain way , especially a lot of young people of color , or a lot of young black people . They were looking to us to get answers , the people who are older .
And then we were looking to the producers and the theater owners to say , okay , what do you have to say ? Because these kids are saying they're screaming . So we didn't want to put point fingers in anyone's faces , but what we wanted to do is just those relationships that we have create something special During the pandemic .
What we did it was LaChanze and Audra McDonald , who came together , brought us together on a Zoom , and we were on for hours , like literally four or five hours , just trying to discuss things and see what we could do . And then we decided to form Black Theatre United .
We were trying to come up with the right name and all that stuff , and so that's what we did . And then , over the next few months , we were trying to figure out a strategic plan . We hired someone to do that . We few months we were trying to figure out a strategic plan . We hired someone to do that , we got donations and everything to do that .
And then , within I would say , another six months , we were still under the pandemic , but then we were being let out a little bit . I think that was 2021 , when we were being let out with the onset of , hopefully , the vaccine and all that .
But we stayed on Zoom and we created a summit and we brought together theater owners , producers , creators , heads of unions and we had a full on discussion .
We hired a facilitator who knows about DEI and who can bolster this conversation to get it started , and then we broke off in different rooms and we said listen , tell us exactly how you feel as someone who is not a person of color . What is it that you are seeing ? What is it that you want to know ? Ask us questions . And that's what we did .
And we came back together into one unit and put together those notes and we created what we call the new deal . And the new deal , you know , it's not the constitution of the united states , but what it is . It's it's holding people accountable and making sure that voices are at the table .
Now there's been a lot of changes over the years , as far as you know . Like you said , I was the first african american to play phantom on broadway , but I had seen representation of Robert Guillaume , who was the first African-American to play it , but he was in Los Angeles .
Sure , you know , lachanze , saying , out of all of her years of being on Broadway or in many theatrical pieces , she only for the first time she had a black director . It was back in 2021 . And Wow , charles Randolph Wright .
So you know we not only are making strides on stage , you know , hamilton actually would knock down so many doors , and opportunities On stage is . I don't want to say it's great , but it's definitely progressing .
But backstage is where we want to like introduce more directors , more choreographers , more stage managers , more people , more choreographers , more stage managers , more people . You know there's I can count on one hand how many people are on the crew on a Broadway stage who are of color or black specifically .
So we wanted to create something that would open those kinds of avenues , because there's a lot of people who are not necessarily , you know , singer , dancer or actors , but they love theater .
Sure , we have partnered with a lot of the PR firms that are in town , with the management companies that are in town that deal with theatrical , and we now have interns , mentor , mentee situations and we've put those people and we've done it now for the past three years and it's gone really well .
In fact , I think three of our mentees have been hired in those capacities .
Oh , that's great .
Yeah , and now Black 39 is getting ready to start an educational program this fall . We're partnering up with another organization and we want to start at the junior high level . We think that they're mature enough to kind of understand what this is all about and then hopefully lead on into high school and into on into college . Now again , they don't .
You don't have to sing , dance or act , but if you love theater there's other ways to be involved , and so that's what that's what BTU is all about . We really want to be that . We call ourselves the NAACP of theater and we want to just be a vessel for people to be able to come to .
You know , there are other organizations that we really collaborate with , and that's Black Theater Coalition , there's a Broadway Advocacy Coalition , there's the Black Broadway Men , I think there's the Black Broadway Women . I might be saying that wrong , but there's other organizations .
We're all saying the same thing , but you know , everybody uses whatever tools or relationships that they have to make sure that we progress you've
¶ Career Highlights
played phantom not once , but twice actually , because you were also uh , starring in love never dies , which is the sequel to phantom .
You've played so many iconic musical theater bucket list roles and I just jotted down a couple and I was like I'm just going to I can't name all of them because it's going to take up half the podcast but Harold Hill in Music man , cole House in Ragtime , javert in Les Mis , porgy and Porgy in Fes , sweeney Todd , and I could keep going .
Who else is on your to-do list at this point ?
Well , you know , it's interesting . I get . I get this question a few times and I will say there was . You know , when I was younger I did have more of a list . You know , I wanted to play Curly and in Oklahoma I wanted to play uh , uh , what's the character's name in Carousel ? I forget his name , but in in nine I wanted to be the lead guy in that .
Oh yeah , that's a great one , Now that I'm older .
I mean , I have to be realistic , at least in that regard . But yeah , you know , I'm actually a little bit more excited about the new works that's coming out . There's a lot of people that are right , like Douglas Lyons , who is killing it . You know , he wrote Chicken and B and biscuits and a few other pieces .
I want to see what's new out there , you know , uh , I love the old stuff and I think there's a place for it . But you know , right now I'm just I'm kind of excited about the new things , the new works yeah , that's great .
Do you , looking back on the roles that you have done so far , are there any that are like your absolute favorite that might be surprising to people or some that people would say like that makes them . I mean , you know , I would imagine playing Phantom is one of the greatest experiences of all time .
Yes , yes , and actually one of the hardest , one of the most challenging , I would say too . I mean , I was up for the challenge , but it was definitely the most challenging because of the fact that I'm not a tenor Usually they hire tenors I'm a baritone .
Oh , interesting .
And so you had to sound . Very . There was a sound that people expected let's just say that Because the music is so lush and your voice is one of the instruments that is in that show . So I couldn't sound like Michael Crawford , but I could do the best that I could to sound like what I thought the Phantom was . And so it was .
Yeah , it was a nice challenge that lasted for a while . I would say I'm known for Phantom , I'm known for Javert , I'm known for Sweeney , todd , porgy and Bess . You know obviously for that as well . But there was a show that I did back in 1998 . That was called 1998 or 99 , doesn't matter , but it was called Captain's Courageous .
It was off Broadway with MTC . It was with Treat Williams God rest his soul . He's no longer with us , but he was the lead and I was one of this . It was a group of guys , just guys . It was a fraternity and we were portraying .
I don't know if you ever saw the movie with Mickey Rooney or read the book , but it was about these guys that were on a fishing boat and out of Gloucester , massachusetts , and what we did was we used the book the Perfect Storm as our Bible , even though it was more because that was our storytelling was back before the depression .
The Perfect Storm was a little bit more modern , I think it was like in the 80s or 90s or something . But we use that as reference and I was trying to figure out my character because I was the only black guy in the show and I was the cook on the ship . So this Gloucester , massachusetts accent . They were trying to get us into that sort of vein .
Something felt wrong about it for me . Okay , okay . But I said , okay , I'll still learn it . But going deeper and digging deeper into my character , I found out that these ships would go down to the Caribbean and fish and then hire people from the Caribbean to be on these boats or be in that community . And I was like , oh my God , that's it .
That's it , that's my character . So I said I was from Trinidad and I put on a Trinidadian accent and I actually only had four lines in the show . But for me , saying those four lines in that accent was more authentic and my subtext actually helped my character more .
You know , I had one lines here and there , but I would say it in that accent instead of a glosser Massachusetts accent . So it's all about , you know , just trying to find the depths of what is authentic for you as a character .
And you know , even when I played the Phantom , it was funny because , yes , the show had been on at that time 24 years and there was no way I was going to go in there and change anything . It was just I'm just this guy . My skin color is different than most of the guys that have played the role . That's the only difference .
But , when I was learning the show , I was like , yeah , okay , I'm going to stand here , I'm going to do this , I'm going to do this . But then , when Harold Prince , we got to the last scene and he said , norm , okay , this is what I want you to do .
Wait how Prince came back to put you into the show . Uh-huh , uh-huh Does that always happen with replacements .
Well , not really . So what he did was he had the assistant , or I don't want to say the assistant , but he was the guy that was a resident director , let's put it that way . His name was Seth Sklar I always have to say it slowly because it's such a tongue twister Seth Sklar . Anyway , he was wonderful .
He really took us on the journey because he'd been working so closely with Harold Prince . But the final few days before I went in , harold came in and directed me and so he's like look , in this final scene , I want you to be this petulant child , I just want you to go as far as you want , like it's my ball and I'm taking it and I'm going home .
That's the thing I said . He said you . I'll let you know if you go too far . So , that was at least he gave me the freedom for in that that part of the show . So I took advantage of it and I did a lot of crazy things and I was just in in fear of him saying , okay , crazy things .
And I was just in in fear of him saying , okay , that's too far , that's too far . He came to see it several times and he was like , no , you're good .
¶ Rocking Out
Oh , wow , that's so cool . That is very cool . I think of you primarily as , like , a classical musical theater person , but I did also .
you know I didn't realize how much rock opera you've done . Yeah .
Yeah , so you've done which . I was like , oh , wow , I cause I , you know , I think of such a classical , beautiful baritone . And then I'm like , oh , he's done , tommy , twice .
Well , I did tell him we did a concert version of it like years later . We did it like the 15th anniversary or something like that 20th anniversary . But uh , yeah , I did .
You know , that was my first broadway show if you listen to me and jesus christ superstar on tv . Yeah , I got to do that how do you feel about that genre versus I mean the stuff that you're more known for ?
oh , I love it . I love it . I never funny enough , okay . So , tommy , I was lucky just to get that show , so I was . They were on the very last day of their callbacks .
And .
I got in because I was on a tour of Once on this Island and I got in somehow , luckily , and they hired me . I was like , oh my God . So that was great . But if you listen to the album , my voice , I think , sticks out more than anyone else's because if you , if you listen , to go to the mirror okay .
I had to sing it in a way that sounded a little bit more Broadway , even though it had a beat underneath it . So I had , like that legit sound that you know quote unquote classical sound if you will . But but there was that rock beat underneath it .
And then in Jesus Christ Superstar , which I never thought that I would be part of , that which was great by the way . Well , it was so much fun . But they put me as Caiaphas and Caiaphas has that . You know that low sound , you know he's singing there and then he has to sing a little higher . So I guess you know the range that I could do .
They were like , okay , this guy could do this role right now . I've always wanted to play Judas but I could never do . I could never do eight shows a week .
I don't know how anybody does eight shows a week with that song . Yeah .
No , no , yeah , there's no way . I could do it one day , I could do one night .
Well , I want to see you do it . If there's a one night only concert version , I would love to see that .
Yes , yes , I could give myself one night and I could definitely try to be as authentic as possible . So , yeah , Okay .
Well , if anybody listening wants to do a one night only production of JCS starring . Norm Lewis . I am so there for it .
Exactly .
Well , thank you so much for your time today . I really appreciate it . I cannot wait to see you at Mayo PAC . I'm sure people will be thrilled and I cannot wait to see what you do next , because it's always such a pleasure . Norm Lewis will perform at Mayo PAC on Friday , September 20th . For more information , visit mayoartsorg .
If you liked this episode , be sure to give us review, subscribe and tell your friends . A transcript of this podcast , as well as links to related content and more about the arts in New Jersey , can be found on JerseyArts . com . The Jersey Arts Podcast is presented by Art Pride New Jersey , advancing a state of creativity since 1986 .
The show is co-founded by , and currently supported by , funds from the New Jersey State Council on the Arts , with additional support from the National Endowment for the Arts . This episode was hosted , produced and edited by yours truly , Maddie Orton . Executive producers are Jim Atkinson and Isaac Serna-Diez . Special thanks to Norm Lewis and Nick Kaminsky .
I'm Maddie Orton for the Jersey Arts Podcast . Thanks for listening .