Baptizing. Yeah, he's oh, this is a question. Is the canon scripture open?
No, I don't think the canon is open. It was closed, you could say, in a loose sense in terms of the Sixth Ecumenical Council, the Seventh Ecumenical Council and its affirmations of Trollo and Carthage. But in the Orthodox Church there's flexibility in the sense of like tradition in the you know, proto Evangelian James, or tradition in the Book
of Nach or you know. It's not the way that a Protestant thinks of the canon being closed, like there's nothing else that's quote tradition or acceptable, because the early Church is even pretty late in the game, had minor variations in what they accepted in terms of the Old and New Testament. So not in the way that a Protestant thinks. But in the Orthodox sense, yes, there's a loose in other words, even for the few books that were somewhat disputed, like the Letters of Clement, which some
church fathers thought is part of the New Testament. Like we're not going to say that you're you know, if you had a tradition in your in your church, like that that you included, Oh, you're outside the church because I mean, those books are still part of the Orthodox tradition. Clement's a you know, church father and a Saint Clement of Rome, but we don't include our New Testament, and so in that sense there's flexibility. But I wouldn't call that an open canon as if there would be any
new books. Does that make sense?
Yeah, yeah, it's a good thing to tackle Orthodox Amongst five dollars. I saw an interview with an elderly gentleman who was in Mormon. At one point he said that there were some Satanist elements with Mormonism. You want to answer to that.
There are. I don't know exactly how widespread it is, but we just covered a few months ago in my podcast with Chiller Queen on my channel. She went really deep into the David Hambling case and that is a recent Mormon SR case.
Yes, interesting Extangley twenty bucks. Could there ever be a situation in the present day where public divine revelation would be implemented, for example, after catastrophic, near civilization ending incidents.
No, I don't see why we would need that. I mean, I think the attitude, the assumption of the New Testament and the Church Fathers is typically that we have what we need until the end and there won't be a need for new public divine revelation.
I've never heard anybody argue for that.
Yeah, I think Stangley is like pushing to like if there was a scenario where it was almost like you were pressured to make a declaration of what there is to do from that point on, given that it's never existed, like the conditions never existed, Like would it would it
sort of like provocate something? But I don't know. I wouldn't see how that would provocate, uh, something that would be called a revelation rather than like a collective approach to how to respond to the reality that you're in, which I don't see how there would be any extra anything extra, Like Jay said, everything you need for practice
we have already. Even in the circumstances that are that are dire and overwhelming and horrific, we still have what you would be prescribed as the practice of Christianity, right even if even meant death was ahead.
If you read the little book from the Jordanville Monastery that's put out called Apostacy and Antichrist, which is just a collection of statements from church fathers and saints and elders about the end times. There's nothing like that in there. It's the assumption is that we have everything that we need for that time, and the Church, through the presence of the Holy Spirit in the church, will know what to do in that time.
But it wouldn't require new revelations.
Mmmm. Fabian five Bucks says, would you say that the marry apparitions of Magidori, Yeah, edjugory add to the public divine revelation.
In the Roman Catholic system. I think you definitely could make this argument, because even though they technically believe that public divine revelation ceased with the death of John the Apostle, the practice and attitude of many Roman Catholics, even amongst the clerics, definitely treats so called Marian apparitions and fatom of visions and claims and magic glory claims like divine revelation.
In fact, I would argue many Roman Catholics actually treat Mariyan stuff above scripture and divine revelation.
Interesting extantly made a clarification here he said, what I I mean is if the traditions, oh, if the tradition was lost, like all knowledge of practice was lost. That wouldn't mean all people were lost, though, I guess the hypothetical extanglee would be like within let's say Orthodoxy, if if everyone died, Jay, I guess the better question is, is everyone who claimed to be Orthodox and practiced Orthodoxy, who was baptized into Orthodoxy didn't exist, but other people existed?
Like?
Is that that?
No, I would say.
I mean, Matthew sixteen promises that the Church cannot be extinguished even to the end of the world. So when Christ returns, there will still be an episcopacy, episcope bishops that are faithful to the teaching and to the end of the world. So we agree with the Roman Catholics on that principle. Romancalics just restrict that to the papacy.
We actually don't think that the papacy has given any special promises, but there will always be true, real episcopate ruling bishops to the return of Christ.
Yeah, even if there were like three or so some thing.
I mean, it could be extinctly reduced to a very small number in a great apostacy.
That's possible.
Yet, Yeah, because when I see the word tradition. I can't really separate that from the people who hold the knowledge in the history. So what is tradition If it's not that? Let me see what else I got here, Jordan five bucks. Most things I learned about Mormonism came from South Park and the musical those guys made. I appreciate you all discussing it either. It was great. Jay. I don't know if you ever.
I've never seen the full thing.
Yeah, so funny. It's just so funny.
Does it Does it actually go into a lot of what we talked about.
Yeah, it's more superficial. It won't get as in depth. But as far as the amount of laughter per minute turnover, it's the highest I've ever seen, including any stand up comedy I've ever seen. Oh wow, it's so funny and well executed. Well. Manuel another thirty dollars thirty paces endless celestial superchat goals. Thank you so much for that. You guys again, we're at thirty six of fifty of the next goal. I am giving Jay Dyer here half of
the super chats today. Why because I'm outsourcing the knowledge of Mormonism and I'm presenting it to you guys. So he's earning his keep, so make sure you give him the grift money that he deserves for coming over here and teaching us some things. Okay. H. Brosse nineteen ninety nine For Jay, I saw that interaction with the Redhead Libertarian chick on Twitter. Libertarians are just Americanist Muslims. Interesting. I've never heard that term. Ask them an epistemic question
and they just point back to what you ask them to. Justin, are you talking about who used to be like the wasn't she usually wasn't the redded Libertarian, the sort of like promoter or booker for Tim Poole? Or am I confusing though with someone else she's been on there?
I don't know. I think she hosted debates and stuff and we were dming and I was trying to set up a debate and then I don't know if I made her mat or what. But we've been trying while to set up various debates on there, so I'm definitely down for it. But uh, yeah, I just think that you know, as as you know, as we've talked about many times, people don't know what is meant by justifications. If you question a person's assertions as to what self evident.
Enlightenment principles are rights, you know, lockey in ideas, like, you know, you ask them what's the justification for that? They think you mean in a colloquial sense, like you don't have none to back that up, you know what I mean. No, that's not what justification means. Justification means j TB, etcetera. Right, So they just assume that you're saying that there's no reasonablyieve those things, and then they'll say stuff like, you know, she said something like did
you read the preamble and the Declaration of Independence? And look with the look where the church fathers went through or another church, well, their church fathers went through, how does them go to?
And Shapiro's church fathers are definitely the founding fathers, that's true. They they kind of work, they make basically sort of make the Constitution some sort of new divine oh yeah thing. And by the.
Way, Mormons believe very similarly that like the Constitution is divinely inspired, that it's like the Mormon Church because it's in America. America's just hollowed brown and they have the what you heard me say, the White Horse prophecy. Right, Yeah, Mormons are going to save America in the Constitution.
So yeah, it's so weird, so boomery, it's like it totally is. Yeah, Aaron Cumple for ninety nine. I wanted to hear Jay's thoughts on the Seventh Day Adventism. I come from a family of SDA members in the origins of it are pretty wacky. You want to riff on that for a second.
Well, again, there's no new revelations. And if that's the case, that immediately cut crosses out Ellen White because Ellen White was a charismatic. She believed in new charismatic divine revelation as all the cults tend to do, much like Joseph Smith, much like new revelations to mohamm And by the way, remember in the Hadiths, Mohammed thought he was possessed because he would fall down having these seemingly epileptic fits when he was getting his revelations, and he had to be
convinced by other persons that he wasn't demonically possessed. Now, if you look at the Great Awakening, when Jonathan Edwards starts preaching his you know, sentners in the hands of an angry God, you have America's first outbreak of charismatic events where people start talking gibberish, flopping on the ground. They think they're getting possessed. So the manifestations are very similar between what is epilepsy possession and charismatic gifts.
And manifestations you see.
And it's no different with other cults like Seven Day Adventism in the sense that when Ellen White starts preaching her new revelation, she thinks that it's new divine revelations from the Holy Spirit. So again, if you go watch my I'm gonna clip it out because it needs to be clipped. Zechrai thirteen says in the Messianic era, there's no more prophets. Prophets are done Jude three, Jami thirteen,
Dieramy eighteen, Galatians one, Relations twenty two. All these loops sixteen sixteen, all these passages make it clear that there's a finality to the work of Christ and the teaching of the apostles, such that it doesn't continue to get updates. It's done.
Yeah, crash Man another two bucks JW. Believe that Michael is pre post Jesus on Earth.
Yeah, Michael the archangel. They think that that's Jesus.
Right, I mean, why not just throw that in there. Jack ten Bucks says, jay is the energy's essence distinction, implying that the energies are distinct from God's essence. And would you consider distinction a deliberate portioning of God into composite parts.
No, Just like every church father that defended the trinity, when they talk about the distinction between the hypostases the persons, they point out that a distinction between the Father and the son does not entail composition or division, and so complex unities are something that the church fathers, particularly the Cappadocians, dealt with all the time when they were refuting Aryan and Eunomian arguments about the necessity of simplicity or divine simplicity,
such that if you took the Plutonian Platinus distinction or definition as to what simplicity is, Platinus says that any distinction entels composition. Well, obviously that doesn't work with the trinity. So the Cappadotionans, just from the outset, rejected that model of what simplicity is, and so they define simplicity in terms of first and foremost, God is simple because he's noncomposite and he's acts and is not acted upon. Secondly, the distinctions in God are not parts, They're not com
He's not composed as if he's put together. But it is a transcendent unity that was always the case in such that the persons in dwell one another and the divine nature in dwells the person's fully in a impartial way. That it's a unique relationship in terms of the trinity.
So if that's true of the hypostaces. The Cappadocians themselves also argued, as does Palamas, the distinction between God and his works, or his actions or his operations is no more a composition relationship than are the persons.
Right, And just to be clear, an essence or a nature doesn't do anything, so it would never be the thing a what like if we said God, what is God? Is a different question of who is God? And how how does God act? But is there it wouldn't be one to one analogous. But isn't there a couple examples in our created reality of distinction without separation people use are like.
The Cappadocian argument at this very point is if a person builds a house, right, you would think of them doing an action that involves something proper to their nature. So a human being working to build a house and put rooms and this, and that I'm the person, Jay, My nature is human nature. It's a fully human action, proper too and consistent with my nature to build a house. I'm fully present in every action and work or energy
that I use to build a house. But I am not reducible to or identical to the action of building a house, nor the energy that I use to build that house. And the Cappa docs use that very argument to say that God builds or creates a world. It's the energy of creating that is proper to doing that proper to a divine being and proper to that divine nature. But that divine nature is not identical to creating a world, because if it was, you would have a modal collapse argument.
Because God's essence or nature is eternal and simple and necessary, then creating would also be eternal, simple and necessary. That would deny God's free will. That's the motal collapse argument. And so God is fully present in every one of his actions or energies without being reducible to them and without having parts.
Yeah, that's a good example. Jack, you're a musician. When I talk to Chase, who explained exactly what Jad did. He use the music itself in place of let's say the house argument, where you're a human and I'm a human, Jack, and we share a nature, but we don't share the same musical expression. There's a distinction between the two, and so I think once people get distinction without separation, then
that question Jack, which is common. I'm sure Jay's heard it maybe fifty thousand times at this point, but for anyone who hasn't heard it, I'm glad that you did ask it, Jack, because it's an important question. Even if you have covered it seven thousand billion times like that.
It's okay. And I mean where you know, there's many places in scripture. If you read the dial the debate between a dialogue between a Barlemite and Orthodox by palain Os, one of the first texts that comes up is God rested from the work of creating. There's some way in which God did a unique, specific action to create the world and then did not continue to create, because.
It's not unlike the Muslim God, who it's in his nature to be ever generating, so he can't not create, correct, Like if there was a God, who's whose nature was ever.
I mean, you would think that they would say that, but they don't. It's it's difficult to translate the modal collapse argument to the Muslims because they don't think of Allah as pure act, but Catholics do so. But the other passage is that we read in the scriptures that there's seven spirits of God. Nobody believes that the Holy
Spirit has seven persons. There's not seven holy spirits. And yet we're told that there's the spirit of wisdom, knowledge, et cetera, and that they rested upon the Messiah when he became incarnate. And so the only way to explain the seven spirits as yet another example is to say that their energy is proper to the triad. So persons, like nobody believes they're persons, they're not creatures, because divine knowledge is not a creature. So the seven spirits, Palamos
argues against Barlem have to be energies. The energies are also in the New Testament. Paul says many times over that it's the energy the Holy Spirit that are the gifts of the spirit, and First Corinthians uses the term inergaya. It's in the Greek, so it's a New Testament teaching, it's an Old Testament teaching. Likewise, this is how we
have to say often right. So this is why you saw, for example, Thomas collapsing in the last few months, because they can't admit that there's the Ofphane's in the Old Testament, because in their view, God is absolutely simple. He can't be in time and space, and so they have to say that the aims of the Lord that the often is in the Old Testament Leviticus, not the glory manifest him before all Israel. They have to say, that's a creature, but it's called God's glory. God's Glory's not a creature.
Yeah. Interesting, Yeah, all that. Thank you for that question though, Jack appreciate it. John Castle are so damn I keep there. I have two castles who follow me, and I just keep mistaking their names. Jason, Jason, thank you so much, very generous, whopping one hundred dollars. W's in the chat for Jason Kassel. Joseph Smith visited me last night and made me the new prophet. I was given tablets. This
time they were platinum, Yeah, the heavy dense metal. This time they state sorry, guys, I was wrong become Orthodox. They are correct, it was a mistranslation. Better luck next time. Joey Schmidty, thank you so much. That's hilarious.
I don't see why we couldn't, you know, have this right. I mean, if if prior revelation can be wrong, uh, why can't the new revelation also be wrong?
Yeah? Well it's similar, like in it's not it's not entirely similar, but it's a kind of a funny uh clapback at people who are determinists, like a Calvinist, and they ask, you know, if they ever asked me, why did I choose uh to uh become baptized in Orthodoxy, they already have the answer. I was determined to. So
same thing with Muslims. I asked them. Instead of debating to the high level that I can't do anyway that Jay does with this stuff, I just asked these like more like I don't know, more broad questions to these people and say, don't you believe that Allah dictated that I reject Islam? I mean, isn't that just the fact of the matter from your view? They really have to say yes, right, So I'm like, well, why are we debating honestly, why are we debating? I mean, if you
want to debate nerd stuff, go to Jay's channel. But ultimately, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna hit you with that every time. L two five bucks tired of live reactions. No twenty five Christians versus Alex O'Connor would be cool. I thought he did they not do that, or I thought they did that.
I thought they did too.
I don't know, would you do that? Surrounded, Jubilee Jade Dier surrounded?
I mean the questioners are not, from what I've seen, very high tier. So we've already we already kind of do that when we open it up to the.
Yeah, the formats rushed too. That's the only thing I don't like. I like, I like that it exists, but I think of about it for me, like what's required for like a good back and forth. Yeah, it's not a pressure three to five minutes with people voting you. I mean, that's just like, oh man, you're bound to make a mistake too. H Brossei four ninety nine. This is a reply to that super about Alex O'Connor. Please don't ever react to anything involving him. The Soy from
his body permeates through the phone. I'm thinking you likely engage with him at some big I.
Mean I've you know, I've sent so many messages and emails and it always just gets ignored. So I mean, I I even I re messaged publicly Nole's Dave Smith Ben Shapiro again today and it's just it's always going to be ignored.
I've messaged at that guy many times too.
I think you have too much information. I think I think that you're just your your autistic, oversized head has too much information. Because they don't, they won't be able to like go at it at the granular level with with you. So maybe they just don't. They're just like I can't do that. I'm not going to do that to my Like well.
That also just from on a more practical level, like what do they gain from debating?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true. That's a good way it look. You know, it's like why would even that, Like people have been trying to pressure inspiring philosophy to debate me on evolution, even if it tied into could create a Christian view accommodate a never changing Ultimately, it's a never changing, non existing human universal could that exist? It just can't.
It just it's just like a complete disaster. There's nothing he could gain from debating that with someone lower on the on the notoriety scale, which surprised.
Me because I think that the only way that back you know, a few years ago, that I got del Hunty and Molineu to do those debates was because enough people eventually was in their chat.
Sure, yeah, yeah, that's the only way.
Yeah yeah. And I also joked and I watched the who is that Greek dude? I already forgot his name? You know, he's he's a feelings based thing. We roasted him a bunch of times here on the news channel, No, the prop channel that does like the Avengers or whatever. George Jenko, Sorry, like I was, we were all laughing at one chat. I don't know if you were here.
We're like, imagine Jay up there like trying to like navigate being nice and being accommodating with like losing your shit, but like how do you sit on the white couch and like, you know, you're grateful for the platform, but you're like, h like, I don't know, you know what's.
Unfair about all that too, is like you and I both have many times been on media platforms where it was conversational or interview format or you know whatever, and then people act like, oh you dudes, No, I give anybody what they want out of the exchange. So if you have me on a podcast to just talk, yeah, I mean I've done the streams with IP where we just went through you know, church fathers proving that they were not anti trinitarian, Like I wasn't there to debate
that have to debate him. So it's not people pretend like we're these villains and the we're these awful people who don't actually just get people what they want.
Yeah.
I mean you've demonstrated on Tim Poole like you then jump in and try to do like meta attacks on all of these things, even though you could probably see the assumptions a million miles away that you can challenge. It's like, you know how to play on the particular platform you're on. There are some rules there. If you want to be invited back, you're not going.
To do this.
Put the stick in the spoke of the wheel. I mean, it's not good for anyone.
Ran right, like if Ruslan and he said, oh, you can come on the podcast Okay, I would be fine coming on there to do it a debate formal or informal, or just have a conversation another like, I don't demand debates.
You know.
It's like people think that when you ask would you like to do this? Then they get but hurt and then they act like you're this villain. It's like, well, we.
Don't have to do that. Yeah, you could just do it conversation. David Murdoch art ten dollars. Thank you so much. Look up Mormonism, Shadow or Reality by Gerald and Sandra tan or X. Mormon's books is seven hundred pages tons of content. They made a pdf available online free under creative comments. Yeah, the people who leave and sort of expose the extra stuff you might not see is kind of fascinating. Honestly. Maybe the best thing with that is, like have someone like that on to tell tell the
tales right directly. So Justin says I can be baptized to whiteness. Well, Justin, you're only like, what are you like thirty one percent black? I'm not sure. I don't you wouldn't.
I don't know if they tripled that like Obama level.
Yeah, you know, I don't even know if you count honestly with your own L two A two bucks will Jay's live stream. Yeah, he said he's gonna clip it and make it.
Well, I'm a clip just a fifteen minute a part, but it's it's posted as a member's talk.
Yes, yeah, go get a membership over at Jay's. Again, we're at four. We got eleven to hit the goal here, folks, again, fifty one minutes, plenty of time to do it. But just so you know, half of the donations today the super chats will go to Jay for his autistic level.
You want to see if Jack wants to come on the debate, because this guy's asking like totally ridiculous stuff.
Oh is this it? Okay? Jack says for another ten there's some greatest and orthodox commenters on YouTube. What do you mean commenters? Commentators are commenters that break down the growing tide of false catech humans. I'm not sure what that means, a false catechumen. There's a great video showing some clown and is endorsing wicka Phase calling.
Me the clown because I was friends with Wickiphase, so I got Wickiphase to.
Get an Orthodox study Bible.
And these people are just pretending like I'm some sort of secret WICCA, even though we've done countless podcasts against WICCA.
Yeah, I mean yeah. To be fair on the internet, there's going to be tons of subversive activity people who I mean, Jay, You've caught people on this multiple times where you say when did you when did you get baptized? Or where whatever? Whatever the pointed question.
He's saying that I'm a false teacher, creating false Cindy of Cumans.
He's talking about me.
I'm the clown that he's talking about, but he doesn't want he's trying to be funny.
Okay, is that I don't know if Jack, can you affirm that that's what you're pointing to because it's from the Diamond. Yeah, but that's silly Jack, if that's the case, because I'm Jay is largely influential in You're fake fake, Well, I don't know. There was nothing fake about the two hours of Lifelong Confessions I just did this morning. Piano didn't.
That's just piano Dean five bucks. There's a clip of Mike Wallace asking h Who's Mike Wallace asking Mormon prophet Gordon Hinckley about the black people think and his answer is a total cop out. Well, I figured it's hard to Yeah, yeah, that's a hard thing to engage with, that one to defend. I mean, it's so brutal that the two thirds who stayed neutral in the vote in the in the celestial vote got doomed. They're they're saying you're doomed. You're doomed with your skin DCMS nine ninety nine.
Big love for Jim, Jim, Bob and Jay. Notice more Mormons in the UK lately stopped twice by missionaries last month. Don't get the appeal. It's one of the more obvious BS cults. Well, Jay and I briefly talked on why it is that's that's appealing. If it's feelings based, you know, and that's the level at which you're pursuing or inquiring about it, whether or not a theology or a church is true. I mean, you're gonna get caught up in a lot of different stuff if it's if it's just
feeling space, which I'm that's unfortunate. Extendally at ten Bucks, I didn't know LDS was so wild. I didn't know either. Now I see where Brandon Sanderson gets all his imagination from. It is pretty wild. Every time I was texted, I told you before I'm about to edit a cartoon, and I was just like kind of trying to source from people who are knowledgeable the most ridiculous things about Mormonism, and Jay was texting me things and I thought he
was messing with me. I thought, I was like, this guy's messing with me, and he was like, no, no, these are these are legitimate things that they actually hold to. Spireau, thank you so much for your Canadian twenty dollars third generation x JW. Here for thirty plus years. Wow, saw everything there was to see in that religion was all involved, top to bottom. If you ever want to do a JW stream and need info, I got you and then some have debated a few too. That's that's interesting. I
didn't know that about you, Spiro or Spireau. I didn't know that that that was your thirty years of experience. Wow. The Kraken five Bucks Journal of Discourses, page two eighty nine says no man in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial Kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. Can you still get consent? That's the other question I have. Jay is like, do they engage with Joseph Smith in some weird way today, Like is there like a method to them now sort of participating if
you will, with Joseph himself. I didn't get that so far.
You mean, like does he speak to them or yeah, like do.
They interact with him? Do they try to? Like is there a thing?
I've not heard that? But I mean he might appear in a vision who does well?
Who knows? Yeah, h rowsy five bucks? No, No, not dash. I'm talking about the Jehovah witness chick. Oh before he asked about this, that Jehovah Witness check. You asked you a question and didn't have an answer for when you were younger. Those are more recent streams Jehovah witnesses.
This is when I was like eighteen, like I was just what got me into apologetics was just when I was like eighteen and some Joe's Witness girl asked me about Versus and I didn't know what they meant because she was teaching that, you know, Jesus is a creature, He's not some of god.
Weird sis and urcane five bucks. If you become quote God in the Mormon sense, you get all the green yellow and decaffeinated soda you want. I mean it is it's like it's like it's like modern consumerist Islam, so they just swap out the products.
That's a good question, Like do you get to like bypass the absurd legalisms if you're a god?
Yeah, that that's just it's insane. Rocky Shepherd five Bucks. I think we are in Satan's Little Reason of Revelations twenty seven through eight. The tribe of Millennial Rain are over. I don't know about that. No, nothing unknown TSJ five Bucks, E Joey Smith, Joey Smith, New Jersey Italian mobster. Have you guys seen the South Park episode about Joey Boy? Kind of funny? I didn't see that. I think I need to get caught up on South Bark. I don't know why it's hard for me to watch things, honestly,
I can't. Is there anything you watch, Jay that's like consistent where you're like, that's my thing, I watch that, you're all?
I mean, I kind of Jamie and I kind of cycle through some of the same shows that we've watched. So the most recent show that we watched was Parks and rec because I never finished it. Back when it was on. I got all the way up to like season four, So I mean, I appreciate that it's pretty funny. But other than that, I mean Mystery Science Theater, X File, psych Riff tracks about It's about what I watch.
You've ever watched something that's just like so horrifically bad just for the sake of seeing how cringe it is? Like you know, Paradise Island, you know like those Yeah, we watched shows. Yeah, so those are like it's like a week week spot for me where I'm just like, can I see Because there's always these like sort of dating slash. I guess you would call them experiments, like actual social experiments. Right, They're kind of weird, but you just can't look away. Uh tears, sword arm ten bucks.
Mormons believe that there are more religious than everyone else. Right. Their final retreat is when all historical arguments and logic fail them, as by their fruits, yay shall know them. I don't know how they get into it, dude, I don't know how you I can see how people are raised Mormon and leave I can't. I still can't. I'm trying to figure out how someone actually just goes Yeah, I'm wanna go in. I'm gonna go in. From what I heard, I don't know. Ask a couple questions. It's done,
big cheese. Five bucks. Are you guys familiar with the huge amount of land the LDS, Yes, land buys it. In fact, Jay just did a stream where he covered the influence was it the CIA and other things? That was it?
The same how of it? But I mean, yeah, we talked to I just sort of stream on them being a giant corporation and hedgephon.
Four hundred acres. Yeah, I mean four hundred thousand acres. If you're seen as a corporation, that's kind of what you would do. You just like make your religion a set of assets and and you know, from that view, why wouldn't you If you can get people to believe that theology. I'm they're not going to be suddenly surprised by a corporate structure. I don't. I don't see why they would bend five bucks, corn ob X, the Great
Divine Bang check mark. I like this new format, Ben, I haven't seen that the X and the check mark President Sandown are five bucks. Let's be honest. Your shoulders are normal. It's your huge that's what I argue. I say, I have a TV head, it's not my shoulders. My friends disagree. They actually say, well, no, you got. It's kind of a bad combination of both. I basically have the silhouette of Peter English. Unfortunately, uh, George ten Bucks.
With these cults, it seems like people in leadership inherit great wealth and an organization and assume they must be doing something right. JW jws also have a lot of property investments worldwide. Yeah, there's nothing actually you mentioned this on your stream, Jay, that was nothing actually wrong with the ownership of things. It's just that it's the the identity of the corporation is indistinguishable from the church, right, that's the.
Churches are corporations. They have a host of shell corporations and hedge.
Funds right right.
And the megachurches model that same structure.
Yeah, and it works for people, for the for the people, you'd, I guess you'd call them weird faux parishioners justin Henley five bucks. According to the Hadith, some seventy of one's wives are plucked from the lake of fire. Well, you can pick your you know, picked from the fire. So two quote good Muslima and seventy purified Kafirs. Yeah, the hadiths. You've debated so many Muslims. Some of them go, well, no, the hadiths are these secondary set of things that people wrote.
They don't have to all make sense to No.
I mean many of the if it's sahiblhari, they have to believe it because those are strong. Oh. Interesting, see there are classes of them. There's weak ones and strong ones. But you don't if you're sunny, you don't get to say, oh I don't believe.
Yeah, yeah, you can't a raw dog five dollars. Have you seen Ron Wyatt's video about testing the blood of Jesus from the shroud? If so, what are your fast I haven't seen that. I haven't covered the shroud thing at all. I have no access or knowledge.
I just don't find any stuff convincing. I don't like.
This is like the domain of like Roman Catholics just love this stuff. They go create trap.
Honestly, if you double down on that stuff and then you suddenly act upon it in all these new ways and it turns out to be like something fake or something doubtful about it, you're kind of you kind of put all your eggs into like this, like one little it shouldn't.
But the blood, like what is going if he's fully human, testing the blood is not going to show anything anyway.
It's just dumb, right right. It doesn't tell you much at all. Bobby C. Five bucks. Can Mormons establish their own morality quote if they achieve godhood and create morality? That's another good question about it. I didn't even think about, like, well, who of the gods? Being that there's endless gods, is the ultimacy of of.
Well, this is the classic critique of polytheism, right, So if you read Adgentees by Saint Athanasius, one of the critiques he makes is this point where he says, I mean, if the gods are all competing and fighting each other, there is no universal standard of the good, or of the true or of morals. It's just conflicting power structures and whatever is in power. So ultimate is kind of chaos is what rules?
Yeah? Yeah, And it's kind of like that if morality from a Christian view, morality is is is bound to God. It's not a set of propositions separate from God like a list. And if it's the nature of God, that's good.
Somebody is saying Mormons believe in an eternal law that God is subjected to. Right, then it wouldn't be God, right, so would be God?
Where does that come from?
Who established that? Exactly? Yeah?
So that's again the problem of nature. What what does it mean to be the nature of God? Mormonism? They couldn't possibly tell you the distinction of the nature of God, being that everyone can be the nature of God, but they aren't currently the nature of God?
What's that?
What's that transition right between? They're basically true, They're like Truon's They're like I.
And also where do you get that from?
How do you know?
Because number one, remember the Bible's corrupted, So once again we have to go to just what Joseph Smith says is what divine nature is?
That's it right? Right?
Yeah?
And do they hold that he became a god? I mean obviously they would have to say, like he became.
The That's a good question. I mean it seems like they would have to say that.
Yeah.
Yeah, Presidents sundown are five bucks. Have you ever noticed that much Protestant sounds like protests?
Yeah?
Yeah, gravy, gravy. Yeah, I bring that up with Protestants that their identity is against something and is not a positive claim for It's kind of a it's like an atheist similar in their position. Enzo nine ninety nine says nothing, thank you so much, Extangle five bucks. What I mean is if, oh, yeah, I read that David Murdoch j the judge b y you alumni just dismissed most of Hambley's charges with prejudice now ag withholding information.
Right, So the Hamblin case about the SRA satanic stuff.
Was covered up.
Interesting, ben five bucks. J. Andrew always speaks highly of you. What are your thoughts on his debate style? Is there anything you disagree with him on that you could that you would debate? I'm on it.
I think there are people who do these super chats and they're constantly try to get me to debate Andrew. I think they're doing it on purpose, because I got people saying Andrew wants to debate you, and then I went and talked to Andrew and He's like, no, I never said that. So I just think this is like people trying to start.
They try to Yeah, they try to do that a lot of people do that with me. President sun Down A four ninety nine, Tristana says Jay is a slanderer.
Tristana, that is true.
And Tristana is also a member of the Haggard family. And if you remember, the most famous gay meth evangelical pastor is a.
Shout out to Tristan Haggard. I hope you're doing well. H brossy five dollars. Thoughts on this trend of women across women across social media feeling the need to tell stories for the sole cause of embarrassing their husband. It's weird. It might be just like a a.
Product of the like a Reddit product, like a Reddit.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like.
I think Reddit is just total cancer that needs to go.
Oh man, it's really bad. And I tried Jay to even follow like what orthodox Christian read it is.
The word now that's run by like total like.
Five bucks. Yesterday I confused John Cassal with Jason. I constantly do it. He corrected me and said, it happens a few times a week. It's really hard to catch that for me, dude. Justin Henley gifted one membership and you guys, uh three more super chats. And I don't want to take too much of Jay's time just reading chats, and we'll close it out with some conclusions about Mormonism and let you all on your way. Being that it's
reaching almost three hours. Uh flane ten dollars. Flain Mez says a lot of quote Cain worshippers here in Texas Caine worshippers. Is that the same as Bigfoot? Are you referring to Bigfoot?
Yeah?
I don't know what that means.
I think I'm a Bigfoot reference bag Milk thirteen ninety nine. More Jimbob and Jay streams please. Yeah, we we like to focus on what a good topic once in a while.
We will know that that one of us on dispensationalism on Twitter. I've shared that in a lot of big threads and that has like seventy eighty almost eighty thousand.
Now, oh that's awesome. Yeah, yeah, that was a good stream. That was thorough. I hope I actually wanted to ask you about that. Is like being that mainstream media isn't really designed for long form summaries of things like that, and you really do need some good chunk of time to get into that. And I was wondering, like if you were to get on like with like Tucker or or anyone bigger and you could actually talk about dispensationalism.
My view is that dispensationalism is the way in which you can talk about Zio issues and without it being so bagel driven and focused. It's a way around it. If you will, ironically a lay around it, you can talk about this. My question to you is, Jay, if you were to be on a massive channel and you were to cover dispensationalism in like topics, what's the first section you would cover? If that was your task on a big on a big channel, I'd probably.
Just immediately go to the clearest passages like Matthew twenty one, the Kingdom of God will be taken from you, given to a nation producing the fruits thereof Roman's eleven Jews grafted out, gentles, grafted in one covenant, one tree, one one thing to be grafted into or out of not too dual covenant things. I would talk about the history of the church, essentially never teaching this until Schofield and Derby, so I would try to get that like the big points first.
Yeah. I think that's uh, because it seems to be like it's something that's kind of talked about a little bit, but I don't think people understand how it like sort of like, uh, it's just so palpable.
It is, especially in America. I mean all this like you know the Rapture, you know, what's the Hayes thing that had the big book series, that had a cage in the movie Left Behind. You know, all that stuff is just like propaganda for that stuff.
And it's so easy. I mean that dummy you debated who thought the Apostles went to college, he's a perfect example of like what it produces. Whether he's like, it's just like at this point, you know, people are like, oh, that guy has to be a paid plant. And I think we covered this before in a previous stream. Yeah, you don't need it, Like you can have that. I'm sure it exists, but do you really need to pay someone to be a plant? If you could actually just produce people like that?
There's funny of people that don't know.
You don't need You don't even need it. As much as I want the plant theory to be true about a lot of things as a plant, Mormonism to a cultism to orthodox pipeline is real. What do you think the most direct pipeline is to Orthodoxy.
J Well, you know, it's funny because I would say, back in twenty eight teen seventeen, it seemed like most of the converts that we would see and that we were interacting with on a regular basis in the discord were Roman Catholics, especially traditional Catholics. Then that kind of faded out, and then it seemed like it's been more and more people coming from either the hippie DMT psychosphere
to Orthodoxy or the Protestant world. It seems like the last few years it's really been way more Protestants can bring orthodox than Catholics.
Because I feel like Catholics who were going to.
Convert, who were willing and open kind of already have and you've just got the hangers on who are just so entrenched and deluded in Papism that they just they're not going to leave it unless something even crazier happens, which it will, I'm sure in the near future. But yeah, it seems like a lot more Protestants and Evangelicals in the last and hence, you know, you had Redeemed Zoomer
saying my discords are converting. You know, James White's fussing again yesterday the whole thing yesterday saying that you know how bad I am. You had Joel Weebun and all his crew to an entire podcast. Why are people leaving processes of Orthodoxy? Seems like the you know, hemorrhaging is happening in the Protestant world now.
Yeah, and it's interesting. I would I would assume it's mostly men leading the charge who are converting, but if there are women by their side. I always find it interesting how interact and experience Orthodoxy. Like the man, the reason minded, philosophically based is kind of pulled into it. Even though the philosophical is important, it's not the wholeness obviously of the faith and the practice. But it definitely played a huge part for me and a lot of
people know. But it's interesting to see, like the experience with women where they follow their husbands or fiances into it and what they gain from it and their reasoning is a little bit different than than the man. It would be interesting to see what percent of this new sort of surge of converts are men and women. Obviously it's men dominant, but men.
But yeah, like at our live events, there's a lot of guys with their girlfriend's fiance wives, so you know, we can see a section of women. They're there.
My audience is ninety percent dudes, ten percent women, So I think that'll happen. It's like in the case with Dasha, she was like, well, my husband or my fiance is orthodox. I'm like just for him.
Yeah, there you go. Yeah, that was actually refreshing to hear. I didn't know what her ultimate position was. Once she said that, I was like, oh, okay, this is basically kind of sordid. There's nothing Jay needs to really do much more of tb or tybee ten dollars. I love this team up. Should happen? Should be a weekly thing? Well maybe, I mean maybe bi weekly. I mean, we could definitely do more streams.
Yeah, you're one of my favorite people to stream with. You know, Tristana's retired because he can't handle all the success that I've had with music and rap, and so there's an intense amount of jealousy that led him to retire. So you know, I'm always open for more streams.
Yeah, totally, just uh President sundown or another five bucks? Why is Mormonism so big? With Polly's all the tongans and samoans, I played football with were Mormons? Well interesting, I went to Hawaiian and it was it was loaded with Mormons too.
Really, so I guess they have like a they've set up a lot of ye stuff down there.
Yep, they took it. Saw even some in the elevator. I was like, oh, you guys are here doing the thing. Huh. They're like, let's go for the Well, well, you said it before, not to not to disparage against against Hawaiian people or Polynesians or whatever it is, like you said, they Mormonism does rely on sort of maybe the people who don't who aren't have full who don't have full access to everything. Let's say, so an island would be historically a perfect example of isla.
Those witnesses and Mormons all can prey upon less educated people's.
Yeah, yeah, it's a it's key testicular tactics. Two dollars. I lived in Utah. Their favorite soda is mountain dew, that caffeine lade. It might not he does that.
It's spelling point.
It doesn't spray or is it sprite that doesn't.
Spe doesn't I think Jerome.
Six ninety nine. The Mormons have much capital. They might be the one secretly pulling all the strings illuminate confirm. Well, if there's anyone who's gonna know or expose that, it's gonna be Jay. So you know, pray for him because if if they're as powerful as we we kind of fantasize that they are, you know, Jay's is in danger basically, so Seth Garrett twenty bucks, God bless, I gotta go see you later. Thank you so much, Marcus Antonio, five
gifted memberships, Ben five bucks. Here was a super chat from Zimmerman and Jessica. Whoever donate ask to thank you so much for that spirit on fifteen bucks nothing Ben four nine, we won, thank you for that. Anglo Orthodoxy five bucks. Mormons don't have a deity as such. They have individuals parentheses gods. Yeah, yeah, they just have a bunch of particular people hanging out of their table and they're like, well, who's gonna win, let's vote, So voting
voting gods is wild. A bunch of voting gods with their hands raised, so weird. The cold quest That means that they don't have shared wills, not that that's the biggest problem, but not that you need even that. But that's just another thing there, cold quest, five bucks, what's your opinions on someone like Wes Huff who's smart, still falling for the dispensationalism hoax? Would love to see him debate it.
I mean we tried.
I actually reached out to one of his buddies.
He has a buddy who's becoming Orthodox, and that guy was trying to get west up to do the tencast debate with me Michael Knowles, Tim Gordon, and west Hoff, and west Hoff said no, Michael Knowles doesn't want to do it obviously, So man.
That would have been a blast.
I know, I would like the best debate if we got those, all three of those.
Maybe that's too high tier. I've I've been suggesting recently that maybe we should get Nathan Rager up with you. But it's but you could just as well be Randy Balls and debate Nathan Rager. Have you you've seen Nathan Rager now that one of your characters. No, No, I wish, I wish. I actually want to quit satire because I didn't even come up with this here. I'm sure I'm sure you've seen this Jay now that once you see the person's face, where is it? Dude, Nathan Is. That
is Nathan Rager. He actually stands outside of an orthodox.
All that Baptist guy with.
Yeah and yeah and the big like pandle Mar. Yeah, I knew there's no way you didn't know who that.
Yeah, we covered him on the Megachurch stream, you know.
Yeah, I figured ten bucks, no doubt. There are some figs trying to stir up drama between you guys. If there's an issue, it goes without saying, you handle it privately. Yeah, you always go private first. If you ever hear someone's doing something saying something, you just reach out and go, hey whatever. Joey Valencia two dollars, Jay thoughts on The Chosen Show. I actually watch that.
I haven't watched it.
SoRs five bucks. Jay, you have any musical advice for Jim Bobby LARPs as a musician, but he could obviously use the help from a superior artist. Yeah, I mean.
If you want to get zorched and gifted, he can. You can go watch my Mystery Science Theater rich Tract stream that we just did a couple of nights ago. Max Night, Ultra Spy. I piggyback to your twenty.
K oh Yeah, yeah, I sent people celebrating.
My Twitter almost one k so I'm still I'm still not there, but uh no, I think Jim Bob's gonna also probably just get jealous like Tristan and he's going to retire because I'm pretty much the hottest rapper on the scene.
I'm about to open up for rip Rafts.
So yeah, that's awesome. Speaking of events, that looked really good. You just retweeted Sam Hides doing a boomer thing.
Yeah. Our next episode is a boomers that was fun to write about. Hopefully he'll use some of my jokes.
That's hilarious.
Yeah, So I think they're filming that in a couple of days.
So remember for thirty one months. Well, Emmanuel says, is this the same short break quote from Superchats after the animation, not complaining it's great, Well, this was a short break, But it turns out you guys reached both goals. For the sake of my time in Jay's and the value we we just gave you, thank you so much celebration in order thank you. I really appreciate that, and I just I knew that to honor the Superchats you have
to read them. That's why you guys send them. So if it takes time, it takes time, and I think this might be the last one abe nine nine nine and found a Jim Bob video suggested video through JA. Thank you both. Currently EO Catechumen to be received at Pasca. Thank you so much for that.
More fake converts more fake.
I didn't know, Jay, We're already at three, but it is stream yard, so I don't know. If you want to take two calls one, it doesn't matter to me. You could sind whatever you're doing, whatever, okay, if there's anyone to call in again, oppositional first. I don't want people just hanging out, you know, and this isn't an a bar. I would happily have a beer with you, but oppositional first. Please, I'm gonna put it in the chat. If we can get one or two, great, If not, we'll close out the show.
Maybe you can even get a Mormon in here.
I could get a Mormon, any Mormons, I mean, first and foremost, get a Mormon in here. I would love it. But if there's anything, you know, Jay's a very attackable person. He's an open target for everyone, and so he's used to it anyway, so so you might as well take the take him up on it. There's the chat again. No agreement. I don't care about your agreement. Love you, but I just don't. We don't want to sit around and agree with you. Anybody. There's it's it's in the chat. Okay,
there there's the stream yard link. Do it if you dare. I'll just be here watching, just be here watching nothing anybody. And we got to turn on the background music.
You had a Mormon dude in your show yesterday when he in the chat, somebody Mormon yapping it up.
Yeah, there's a couple. I just can't tell if their trolls or not because these wild names, you know, like full bring them young, full sentences. I don't. I'm so naive to I believe everyone. It's just the worst thing. I'm just like, oh, do you want to talk about it? There? And my own chat's like, dude, that's a troll.
Do you.
Anybody nothing? I know, he's scary, he's scary. Face your fears. Look he's Look, he's at the tail end of a stream. He's tired. This is where you go for it. Look at him.
I'm wilted. Attacked me while I'm wilted.
He's only had three double double espressos. How's your espresso machine? By the by the way, Jay, do you have a good one that makes some real good grema?
Or I don't do dairy too well, so I don't you usually do the cream even though I really like it? And uh yeah, I actually had to get a nice one because I kept buying kind of like mid tier ones that kept breaking after like a year, so we only got a nice one.
Did you get a Rebel?
I don't remember what brand it is, but it was about four hundred dollars. Five hundred dollars.
Well that's good. Yeah, you basically that's your low. Five hundred or more is where you have to go with the espresso machines. Am low looks up. You keep coming on and breaking off. Get into a good place if you're gonna call in.
Please?
Who's meaner? Jay, Jim, Bob or Andrew? I mean, I think Jay, you can't like steal the meanness meme from Jay. I think Andrew's more maniacal than either of us.
But you and I are similar in that we will impersonate and you know, kind of make into cartoon characters people that are big, you know, disagree or.
Yeah, I'm like more of a I'm kind of a bully. I like mock. I'm trying to I'm trying to figure out how much mockery is justified in an exchange and how much is just going over the line and just just you know, humiliating for the sake of humiliation. I'm dealing with that internally. I think Jay and Andrew mock less than me. I'm more of a direct mocker. And uh so a pair of Sith lords. Yeah, they're saying Jay and Andrew are currently a pair of Sith lords
and they're training Jimbob just to succeed them. That's funny. Yeah, I'll fight yeah, yeah, none of them all. I will say that Jay Nor j Or Andrew actually ask people to fight them directly, like I do. Not that that's an advantage that might be as I've.
Tried to set up two or three fights boxing matches.
Have you boxed before? I mean not professionally, white shoulders, I mean you could, you could.
Not trained, but I've like messed around.
Yeah, Hey rock E, Hey, what's that? How you doing your oppositional Hm? No, are you well?
I'm oppositional on.
I'm not orthodox, Okay, do you wanna do you wanna? You got something?
J or.
Well, I made the comment that I think we're in Satan's Little season, and I I got like twenty scriptures that you know. Look at Matthew's twenty four thirty four, Jesus says this generation shall not pass till all these things happen.
Yeah, but that generation is the people standing in front of him. And so what he's talking about happens in seventy eighty when the temple's destroyed.
That's why if you read Luke twenty one.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So do you believe that there should be a third temple that needs to be destroyed? What I'm asking, are you a Zionist? No?
First relate to this.
No, I'm talking about the Satan's Little season.
Where I don't know what you think.
That is what I think. What is Satan's little season?
Yeah, I don't know what you think that means.
Revelations twenty seven through eight talks about Satan's Little season being after the Millennial reign. And so if do you you believe the millennial reign is future?
No, it's now. It's the church.
The Church reigns with Christ because when he ascended, it's fulfilled that he sat at the right hand of the Father and began his reign. So every New Testament reference to Psalm one ten is a reference to the ascension, which is a past reality.
So you're millennialist.
Ten towards post millennism. But I'm speaking of partial preterism.
Partial Okay, that's good. Well, I kind of believe that he came physically reigned for a thousand years and history has been we've been lied to in their hiding Christ. Yeah, physically on earth, he was here.
It's crazy, dude.
Sorry, Wait, what are they hiding though?
Did he did? He came? And that the tribulation happened, and that the Millennial reign is over. There's there's evidence that they added seven hundred years to history. Who's they, I don't know who you would call him? The Satanists
that you know, the people that rule the world. Now you know, you know seventeen seven Okay, if you if the millennial reign, if the tribulation was over in seventy six a d. And then you add one thousand years at the one thousand and seventy six AD, and there's evidence that they added seven hundred years to history, so that would be seventies seventeen seventy six AD, you know, and then you have the they re established Rome, the Roman you know they went against you know, the French Revolution,
the French Revolution.
Can you hear that?
Check?
Check?
Is that?
Don't hunt me?
Yeah? I like it.
Anyone else. I saw someone else keep dropping off in there that was gonna loop, so you gotta get him out. I'm learning. I'm learning. I learned from Jay, I learned from some other people. Once there's a once you can sense the loop, you gotta just you gotta get out of there. Thanks for jumping on, Rocky though, but that's gonna go nowhere. Seventeen seventy six. Can you imagine Ben Shapiro became one of those guys. He was just like I changed my health. Yeah, seventeen king now excellent.
Thanks trained for a thousand years and hiding it from us. You're hiding it from us. How do you know they added years to history? Well, because they're there, Hell, wiki ten dollars.
I like that. That's that Mormon level of argumentation, right like, because it's not there.
I mean, yeah, uh, Rocky Shepherd, every one I've seen him on a couple of things. You know, it seems like a he's he's a nice guy, he's well behaved. But I mean it's like the priest of LDS. This has to be a troll. Troll, yes, welcome to okay, anyone we got one that.
Was it?
That was very or camel Yeah, nothing.
Mormons like Mormons. I thought Mormons love to come and debate.
Now they don't. They never click the link. That's the thing. The ones I got when I post the link, they never click it. And they say, you're afraid of Mormon, You're afraid of the LDS church, which I think they're just it's probably like my trolls, right fortunately, so well, I mean, look, he's got a.
Book here, it's only five dollars.
Who wrote that?
It's written by Jesus kept his word, it's anonymous.
Oh nobody knows who wrote it.
I know, I know Jay likes to read books. Maybe he should, I don't know.
I've already questioning the typeface that they chosen, the placement of everything. I'm an aesthetic aesthetic snob, so I'm really I'm already out with that book. I mean, not as rough one sideways sideways.
It's only five bucks. It's a short read.
Look at that book? Is that a coloring book?
Look at it's got.
Okay, okay, all right, if there's no one else serious want to call in and and go after Jay and his meanness, We'll give you like one more minute or so. It's a huge opportunity. I mean, you're getting him when he's tired. He doesn't have coffee.
I need to I need to be put in my place.
Yeah, come on, what other? Come on? This is insane. I thought they'd be all over you, dude.
I thought you would legit get like Mormons in the chat, spamming and yapping and.
Yeah yeah, the small portion of my chat, you know, make some quick remarks about you during any stream, just like totally random. And I'm like, well, if he ever jumps on, you can just call in. It's fine, don't worry about it.
Yeah yeah right.
And then now that I'm here, none of them want to hop on.
I mean he lives for Robert. Okay, cool, here we go, Hello Robert, justin water, justin water. See that's it. That's all we get. You get way better people.
And you know who that is?
No, I don't know who that is. I don't know who that is. I gotta watch it too because some people troll me and they try to try c s. Yeah, JB and J unstoppable force over here all crickets from the Mormons. Where did they all go? I have to rely on fake calls from my own creative audience. This is just sad. This is sad.
Well, I think I'm probably gonna have to head out because Jamie, are about to go do something. But really appreciate the Mormon stream if you want to summarize, or maybe I'm not trying.
To be right.
Yeah, yeah, I think we got to go to pretty soon. Yeah, no problem.
Well.
In summary, thanks for coming on expanding on the knowledge you have of Mormonism. Glad we covered some of the funny stuff. I'm in the process of making a an animation. I made all the art for it, so I just have to voice it. And uh, when I post that, maybe you can help share it share it around. Jay with that said, Mormonism is in fact, uh whackier surprisingly then I think than Islam is an Islam. Posh was saying, no, no, no,
look further into it. He said, it gets more ridiculous than there's someths.
But I just think that this whole space story with Collob and with Jesus and Lucifer being brothers and you know what I mean, even that's I think that's stuff just Trump's you know, the god the Father was a man who became a god who impregnates Mary. I mean that stuff just prompts the even the Mormon, I mean the Muslim Hadith stuff.
Yeah, yeah, it's just wild. So any who with that said, uh, go follow Jay at Jay Dyer. Is there anything else you got coming up? That's that's like a big any news, like big news for you.
Or wells they're callably with three is complete, and I've got back a couple of the edits on the second edited version from the publisher. It's looking good. I think it's gonna be a lot of fun, a lot of movies, right under one hundred movies, almost one hundred in this one versus the previous ones covering less movies and more writing. This one is more movies, so look for that in
the near future. The mega church streams that we did were a lot of fun this week, so people can go check those out on my channel and uh, just yeah, turning out stupid little tiktoks and.
Having fun and then maybe a debate on on whatever. It would be fun.
Oh I don't yeah, if we can get her to do it. I don't know. Originally she was gonna come on the channel originally, and then it was like, oh, no, I can't, but maybe on whatever.
Yeah, and you would debate feminism against her because she.
Made something different.
I told her I would debate her all because she claims to be quote a radical Protestant whatever.
Yeah, that's the thing.
Yeah. I was like, we can debate that too, and she's like I wanted to so well.
That you could tie kind of tie them in because she tries to appeal to the to her weird Christian view. But then I asked her flat out as Christianity patriarchy. She said yes. So it's like, do you want a Christian nation that like, I mean in a sense that like, do you want the structure of society to reflect the church in this case if it's a patriarchy? And no, no, I mean just like, okay, so what do you want? I want liberty, liberty above all. What about you and
Michael Malice? I wonder if you guys would hit it off with a debate.
Oh, I know, yet he had hide on so maybe yeah.
He said maybe to uh he, I've been engaged with him a couple of times. I put him in a meme that got his attention where he's like dies. In the meme, he goes that, yeah.
I reached out to Tripoli and I couldn't get Tripley to do anything, So I don't know.
Well, they're there. You know, the whole comedy scene is like is a it's kind of on fire as far as like energy and movement right now, so I'm sure they're just like riding that wave. It's hard to get these people. Even I asked Ben Benkis, he was interested, but it's it's really hard to get these people to commit, and probably rightfully so, being that they're super busy. Anyway, Well, thanks so much, Jay, God bless you and yours and have fun on your uh your event or your date
or whatever. And uh, I'll talk to you soon on any future topics you guys want me and Jay to collaborate on. Throw them our way. They could be really ridiculous. By the way, we we have no concern of what the topic is. We'll we'll cover it. Together and have a have a blast. Okay. With that said, thanks Jay head Off and.
Uh absolutely man, thanks for having me is a great chat and always fun covering colts A love that.
Yeah, no problem, dude, thanks a lot. There you go. I'll give Rocky. I'll give him the floor to to uh educate us. Rocky, go ahead, Well what do.
You think of the statue of Liberty? What do you think that represents?
A troon?
M that's the light bearer? The light bearer, I.
Don't know, is this skim. I don't put too much to.
The Statue of liberty or the light bearer.
I mean, I mean maybe it's.
Got a chain that's broken around its ankle.
Uh huh wait a seconder.
Okay, the liberty to sin against God, that's what it's all about.
Well, yeah, I mean liberty, liberty itself. I don't need a symbol, uh to know that. Uh. Worshiping liberty and freedom above all is uh a nefarious plan. I figured that out pretty early without the Statue of Liberty. So you know, if that's the case, Rocky, we both agree that selling liberty above all is a sort of satanic trick. What's the narrow.
Path Jesus is the narrow path Jesus.
But Jesus is a being. So is there a way in which to properly way the way the truth? I know the platitudes and the words, But is there a proper way to follow and live a christ Like life?
Well, I don't believe it's relying on people you call fathers.
Well I didn't ask that. I asked is there a proper way to follow Christ?
Well? I guess there is.
And would the proper way of following Christ be preserved by men and taught? Or is it figured out? Every individual is born and they figured out themselves the proper way to follow Christ.
Well, we have pastors, but we don't call them fathers. Well I don't, I don't. Well, that wasn't. My definition of a father in the church is an elderly.
So wait, you don't follow fathers, but you follow pastors.
I study under pastors. You have the gift of pastor teacher.
They have the gift pastoring.
Some people have gifts. Some people there's gifts themselves.
Fathers don't have that.
Well, it says not to give anyone the title of father.
Well, that's heavenly father. That is to say that you don't call any man the status of heavenly father. The term father replaced synonymous with a dad, is not what they're referring to. Neither are they referring to a father in the church, who's essentially a position of an office, position of a priest position. So if you're the father, well I don't.
I'm not his father. Pope means father.
It's a word concept fallacy, dude. So the question is are you look are you the priest of your your household?
I'm the head of my house.
Are you a priest of your house? If you call yourself a follower, I.
Am a priest, or a saint or whatever.
You're a saint, Yeah, we're all saints.
Anyone who believes in christis okay.
So if you're the father of your house, isn't your own? Aren't your own children following another man?
I don't have the title i'm I'm I'm their dad, I'm their father. Yeah, but I don't do you teach them in the church. I don't have a title in the church called father?
Do they do you teach them theology?
My kids are grown up? Yeah, I did do that.
Should they have listened to you being that you're just another man.
Well, they they listen to the Holy Spirit, Oh so not you. Yeah, they listen to my words, and they discern whether the Holy Spirit makes things real.
Oh so if they disagreed with you, and you said no, the Holy Spirit told me x y is true, and your son said no, the Holy Spirit told me x y isn't true. Rocky, you're getting spurgey right now? How do you discern between the two if you say what you're saying. Let's say you make a theological statement to your son and you say, the Holy Spirit is guiding me to teach you right now, and he says, that's interesting. The Holy Spirit is guiding me, and I don't agree
with you. What how do you, guys, determine the truth of the theological interpretation you're teaching your kid?
He my children would have the Holy Spirit also, And sometimes if you learn something that's false, then the.
Stops stop it. If you claim that the Holy Spirit is guiding your interpretation of the thing you're teaching your child, and your child, being grown up says, well, that's interesting, I'm also being guided in the interpretation. I don't agree with you. I asked you, what's the methodology to determine who is correct. If you both are claiming to have the Holy Spirit guiding you the scriptures, that's the thing
in question, Rocky. If I interpret the scriptures, and I'm guided to interpret the Holy Scriptures right by the Holy Spirit, and you both look at the scriptures, the same scripture, and you come to a different a disagreement, a contradict read disagreement between your interpretations, and you both claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit in your interpretation of the scriptures. I ask you, how do you discern who's right? And you say, the scriptures.
Yeah, see, I'm learning, all right, this is domb waste my time.
I just can't. You can't if you don't understand, Rocky, God bless your soul. If you don't understand the problem here. If two people claim to have the power and the guidance of the Holy Spirit to interpret scripture by the way, you didn't get the scripture yourself. That required a whole slew of history such that you can hold a binding called the books. You're already appealing to men before you who are guided by the same thing you say you're
guided by. The problem is the people who were guided into forming and getting the books of the Cannon and putting them into a binded, organized compilation for you to read. They also have preserved interpretation of that. They didn't just like put pages and not practice it right Rocky, By the way, the scripture itself was used for liturgical practices, not for your son and you to read and to come up with interpretations that you think. It means. It's
not for you to decode. So the problem you have is an epistel problem, because how do you know you're interpreting the scripture correctly?
Right?
Is the question? And you said, I'm guided by the Holy Spirit. I said, that's interesting. If your son is guided by the Holy Spirit and he disagrees with the same scripture interpretation, how do you figure out who's right? And you said, the scriptures okay, you can't do that is god logical? Would God lead you to an illogical path of understanding? No, you have an illogical path of understanding. Therefore, it's not from God, it's from something else. It's from you.
I wouldn't even say it's demonic. I'm not even saying that. I'm saying you're the authority. You're just like, oh, well, I know and then you're like, well, the fathers, you guys appeal to church fathers, so do you hold You hold a Bible in your hand. You appeal to church fathers. You appeal to a normative authority to protect you, appeal to counsels to protect the faith and its interpretation in practice from heresy, from gnarcissism, from all of these things.
And yet you have this privileged position in modernity to go down the street, get a free Bible or a dollar bible, hold it in your hand and be like, I don't need anything. I don't need a damn thing. I just guess me and my son and the Holy Spirit in nineteen seventeen seventy six and adding numbers together. Come on, dude, come on, don't do this. Wilson nineteen dollars twenty bucks. Thank you so much, Rachel, hope you're
doing well. I learned that this type of rebellious Protestant loves making up their own system to follow, which reduces to you're not my dad. You can't every time, Rachel, every time it's you're not my dad. And yet I ask them, do you teach your son? Do you teach your son?
Yeah?
But I don't call myself a father, I say Deaddy. I don't say father, I say deaddy Diddy. Well, Emmanuel two hundred pesos endless celestial l's in the chat. Yeah, I'm gonna have to change my own whole song, dude, change my whole damn song, Diddy. Sincere hypocrite member for one month, don't follow any man proceeds to create his own man made understanding against the Bible. Well, that's it's
a huge thing, sincere hypocrite. If I granted someone like Rocky his interpretation and he thought it was authoritative because he was guided by the Holy Spirit, yet he has no methodology for discerning whether or not he's wrong or not. And I said, are you comfortable enough, being that you've been guided by the Holy Spirit to interpret this already interpreted book of books? Would you be willing to start your own church declaratively so, and to develop traditions around
your church and your and your beliefs. It's not weird that that's already happened, and you're holding the artifact of that. That the that the book of Books, the Bible, the canon is the fruit is the product of a tradition that preceded the object. No, I don't listen to them. Yes, you do. You hold that, you hold it in your hand. You listen. You just don't agree with their interpretation, but you certainly listen to their authority in determining which books
go into the Bible that's not in the Bible. Rocky, the list of books that were to go into the Bible that's not in the Bible. How do they know they aren't their dad? How do you even know you're not your dad? You like to make stuff up, don't you? What can you say? What can you say? You can't say much. You can't debate. You can't debate. You can't debate a spiritual issue. You can debate a knowledge issue.
You can debate facts against facts if there's a spiritual issue, like Rachel pointed out, if there's a not you're not my daddy, I information is not going to solve that you're not my daddy. There's no information you can give someone that's going to overwhelm that impulse to say, no, Daddy, not me. Hold in the goods twenty bucks. I did the same thing when I was a Baptist. I felt like I was in a loop and I never ended. It's a never ending loop. That was until I actually
read the church fathers in history. Didn't a rich man call Abraham father when he was in the whole father thing is insane? Called no man father taking the term father capital f knowing exactly that it's referring to. No. Oh, man can be equivalent to heavenly father. No man alone man, don't call don't refer to man as equal status. It's not a word thing. Oh you said it, he said. Oh accidentally called my father my daddy father on that thanksgiving Oh my gosh, Lord forgive me. That's not what
it's referring to. Justin Henley five dollars, call no merry woman missus, because all women are brides of Christ. Use lady lady Bob and lady Wilson, which means they are married. That's a good point. Why not be consistent? Justin Austin the Daily, I have been listening a way and aware and great extreme Jimbob, call me, call me, don't call me father. You listen to your diddy. We didn't the deily away mm hmmmmmm. Spiritual enthusiasts, uh, feel free to
go over to my discord. There'll be plenty of people who sort out all your chat based questions into one on one questions. Okay, go for it. What conditioner I don't use? I barely condition I don't wash my hair. Once in a while, I'll use a conditioner that's like anti Dandriff. It's not father, it's ditty. Yes, this is Diddy Diddy speaking of this is kind of wild.
Eric Sworsinski from the Preacher Boys podcast, This sissy boy, Uh, you know a new platform many reprobate lesbian or atheist, you know, to make any accusation. Basically he did about three valid episodes a valid abuse.
You know, where is this? What is this? Didn't I didn't know Nathan Rager had such history. It's just wild. That outfit. I feel like when I go on whatever, maybe I should source that outfit he's got on. Don't you think look at that? Imagine I show up like that. Oh my gosh, he's in definitely an a basement. That is a basement in Indiana or something. I don't even know. It's got that dark, windowless feel Indiana porker. That's in my town. You know that base rip? You know that basement.
M Ben Shapiro with Truppy speaking of Michael Malice. He dressed like a I think it was purposeful. Yeah, he's dressed just like a pimp on timpoole.
Mm hmmm, weird.
Anything else you gotta say, Rocky.
No, No, you make a lot of sense. You make a lot of sense. And I'm not saying you're wrong. I could be wrong, and that probably am. I've been wrong before. So is it a salvational issue.
Well, that's what's so cool, at least about the church I'm in, is that there's no declarative salvation knowledge. But there might be issues that you can point to that you'd want to be clear about. So while I can't sit here, ever and make any declarative statements about your salvation, because I can't judge, and I can't judge the judge as far as the practice, though, if the path is narrow, and if Christ established a church, then there's a history
of the church. And if there's a history of the church, there's a lineage of men who preserve the history of
the church. And so if that's the case, and no one can avoid that, you or me, if there is some sort of succession that had to have happened for you to even hold the books of books in your hand, then it would follow that there isn't a normative authority that preceded even our existence, even before you and I were born, that this was already in effect, that there was some sort of authority that practiced and preserved what we call Christianity as a as a practice, as a
theological position, as something worth defending from perversion and heresy. And if that's the case, what I point to is two thousand years of tradition, an interpretation that is solid. Even if you took the Bible away from them, the practice would maintain it that that liturgical practices would maintain from just straight up tradition, and tradition itself is biblical as well. That Thesalonial Thessalonians points to holding steadfast to
tradition both practice word mouth scripture. So there's extra biblical aspects to Christianity. And if you hold a book in your hand and you called the Bible and think the thing you're following, it follows that because that Bible has a history where to one instance, it didn't exist, that means Christianity must have necessarily existed before the Bible. And so if that's the case, Rocky I ask someone like you, who I've asked myself this question, Oh, man, what was Christianity? Then?
What is Christianity? If there's a Christianity that precedes canon, what does that look like? What is Christianity in the year four fifty five hundred when you and me would be lay laity, We would be layperson who didn't have a book called the Bible. It would be too expensive, we wouldn't have access to this. So how would we get the knowledge and the truth and the scripture? How
would it be delivered to us? I argue, with historical backing that we would get it by attending a church that would have some sort of authoritative position on it.
Right.
Well, if that's the case, if I were to ask, well, what's the narrow path, and I said, I think the narrow path would be something akin to closely linked to what would be practiced in the year four to five hundred and held true to that practice over time, so that when you walk into a church, your experience you could just as well be in the year five hundred. That's appealing to me, Rocky.
Yeah, But how do you know whatever father you're following as the truth? You know which father do you follow.
I mean, if you're talking about like a priest of your parish, well, the priest of the parish is not falling. He's holding an office, he's not holding him his personal opinion like a guy. I'm a guy, and this is
my view of Orthodoxy. He goes through a rigorous process to become a priest, and he's bound to holding to the tradition of the church going back to the earliest So he doesn't have the ability or the authority to reinterpret everything because rocky scripture in the practical sense in Orthodoxy is presented to you in practice through the liturgical worship. It's not you sit around and you ask the priest, well, let's talk about this scripture, and that you could do
biblical studies. But that's the difference between someone who's holding a Bible and they say, let's do a Bible study and go, well, who's lead, how do you know who's leading, Who's what's the criteria for truth here? And they go, I don't know. We're just gonna kind of we're going to say what we get from it, like it's a book club, and see who sounds like the best, who's making the most sense, what I'm saying, is that in orthodoxy that's not even occurring. You don't even do that.
You don't sit around and figure out what each person thinks something means. That's not what's happening. There's no reinterpretation today of the Bible, whereas there's a lot of that going on with someone who just merely holds a Bible and rejects any sort of authority. They just go, well, I'm gonna I'm gonna interpret the crap out of this thing. Then I'm going to join live streams and share my own views on what I think I interpreted.
Right, I had a consider it, pastor, my authority, my teacher.
And you're a pastor of what what church?
Church? I used to go to?
What church?
Is that barrack at church?
And is that church have a starting point in history?
It was a Dallas seminary student. Okay, my study.
Are inbrew And I understand I'm not questioning is is is education. I'm saying the church, he's he's authorized, he's self authorizing this church. I'm asking the church itself, like, for instance, could that church also simultaneously exist as an extension of that church simultaneously in another state?
At the same time, he had a church that he it started up in the fifties, so that.
The origin, yeah, I understand, is.
That fifties non denominational Okay. Church. So I understand studied under the Hebrew, Greek, and Aramic.
So that's the thing. If that church has a start point, that's not the start point of Jesus Christ starting the church establishing the church. I'm asking what's the origin story of the church. It sounds like this church started in the church started in nineteen fifty. Well, if you're.
Taking a local church, yet it's called a local church, it's not the church. It's a local.
Okay, I understand. But if the local church has to be necessarily if it's a true church connected to the church, which the church that Jesus Christ is the high priest of. If Jesus Christ is the high priest of a church, the church preceded the nineteen fifty church, right right, Okay, So what's the church If it's not your your got your church that you that that guy established in nineteen fifty, what is the church that existed church?
I believe the church is all believers, the universal, it's everyone, every soul of it. Everyone who's who believes and follows the gospel is a member of the body. Some people. Some people have a gift of teaching. Some have a gift that helps. Some people have different gifts. And I believe there's a gift of teaching. And so my pastor teacher, I believed he was had to give the teaching. He never called himself father, but he was the elder. He was in charge of that local church.
Okay, I, oh, good thing. He would have been burning in hell for saying that word.
And that's not what I'm saying. The word father, and you're humorous doesn't win every debate, I mean debates, I don't. I'm not a debater. I don't know how to debate. That's not my thing. I'm just trying to talk to you, have a conversation.
Oh that's fine, that's fine. I just rigorous me.
It doesn't matter. You can call me whatever you want. It doesn't really matter. It doesn't hurt my feeling.
Anything else. Okay. So when you said, you said you believe the church is anyone who follows the Gospel, and I asked you for is there a way in which someone could incorrectly follow or let's say convey the teachings of the gospel.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's false I'm not saying everyone who calls them a church is a church.
Okay, so this is a it's a Is there a false church?
Yeah, there's false churches.
Can a false church literally hold the gospel and teach it directly and say they believe in the gospel and they're teaching it and be incorrectly teaching? What do you mean if they have can a church? Can a church open its doors and say we're going to teach the gospel and they stand on stage and they do what they believe is teaching the gospel and they think they believe in the gospel, and they believe that they're teaching
the gospel. I said, is it possible, I'm asking, is it possible that they are incorrectly teaching the gospel even though they believe they're they're teaching it?
Sure?
If that's the case, rocky. If it's the case that a group of people can start at church and they believe they're in the gospel, but they believe they're teaching the gospel, and it could be the case that they're incorrectly teaching the gospel. This being a logical possibility and a practical possibility means that there's an authority and a criteria to be able to tell you whether or not they're correctly teaching the gospel right.
Well, that's where I believe that you have to rightly interpret, you know, the word God.
To rightly interpret the word of God means that there's an authority to tell you did you correctly interpret this? Or is this some sort of heretical blasphemy, blasphemy view or something. Right, there's got to be some authority that tells you whether or not you're correctly doing it right. You know how you do a test in math, and the authority on the matters of whether you got the answers right or not is the teacher and the teacher.
Yes, yeah, I understand what you're trying to say. You're trying to say there has to be some kind of human authority that's above me that that I have to You know, he's the father, so he's the elder.
You mean, like being a father of the home. No, No, I'm not telling about like that. Well no, are you?
Well?
The reason I use that as an excuse, Rocky, or as an example, is that if you're a Christian and you believe in the quote Gospel as you say, then it would follow that who you are in the home is a representation of of Christ in a sense, and in a sense your home is a type of an extension of a church.
Right.
So if that's the case, you, the father of the home, are the authority of the owner.
Right.
If your kid says I think this means this and Christ isn't really God, let's say they say that. Let's say they deny the Trinity's authority. That's right, And so what authority you under?
I'm I'm under Christ. He's the head of the church.
Yeah, but how do you where's the authority in the world of Christ church?
Well, I don't believe it's this guy or that guy.
But it's you.
Actually, you do believe it's this guy. You You go like this, I believe this guy. So here's what we have, Rocky. You believe that Christ established a church, but there's no actual church. It's anyone who believes in in in the Gospel. And I ask you, what if your son is under your authority, what authority are you under? And you say Christ? And I say, okay, So you're just like you are criticizing Catholics for having a pope. Guess what, Rocky, you
know who the pope is in your instance? Guess who the pope is?
I don't know, So you gonna get lost. You're the pope, yeah, of my family?
Yeah, yeah, you're the pope. You're the ultimate authority of the gospel.
What the scripture says that I'm the authority. I believe in the patriarch and all that I'm not.
Is a patriarch hierarchical Yeah. Okay, So we have Christ established a church with men in in material in the material world, right, yes, biblical? Right, that's biblical. Christ established a church with men. He has apostles, the body, the College of Apostles who represent him expand the body of the church. Those are men, right, Yeah? Are is your authority higher than the apostles? No? Oh, so you're not
the authority then? So there is uh, there is a lineage and and a hierarchical system of Christ.
And do you believe there's current apostles? You believe there's.
Well, I mean they're they're a lot well and they're alive in a sense. But that's like we're getting into something distinct from right now. We're talking about the rigidity of a church existing and a body, a body that exists, right, that is the church. If Christ established a church historically, there was a moment you didn't exist, and I didn't exist.
That body existed in a way in material reality with men and these and if we point to the apostles and we say, these are the men that are called to go out and teach properly, teach what you call the gospel, teach and expand what the churches and share it right and get people into the church. If that's the case, and you admit that there they're an authority, and you admit that the patriarchal system, which is hierarchical, means that there is a top and then there is
a movement toward the bottom. Right, that's what hierarchy.
Yeah, when I said patriarch I meant that I believe that the husband is the head of the household. I don't believe women should be over. But I don't know that there's currently a group of men that have authority over the whole universal Church. I don't know.
I don't know.
It's just that I remember certain scriptures that says, you know, like the Pharisees. They had traditions over and Jesus was right there and they they were listening to their traditions, the Pharisees and the Sadducees and their traditions, and Jesus spoke against traditions.
I think no, no, he didn't speak against traditions plural, Otherwise it wouldn't be in Thessalonians to hold said fast to traditions. There are specific traditions he's they're referring to when you say men made traditions, correct, I don't know where there are a set of things that people we're doing at the time that were man made traditions that had nothing to.
See a different thinking that he was trying to say that.
That can God give us a tradition?
Wait?
Wait, Rocky, hold on, can God give us a tradition to follow?
Sure? Yeah?
Okay? So is can there be a distinction between man made tradition and God given tradition?
I believe so. Yeah.
So I'm going to ask you to just consider that when you refer to the scripture that says tradition bad, I just want to invite you to consider that that doesn't follow that tradition is bad it was specifically a
type of tradition, a man made tradition. But if you believe, if you believe in God and you believe in Christ, that Christ established a church, and you believe there's a proper way to practice practice that right to be a part of this church and to practice it and keep it in alive and well through the generations, that's a tradition. What do you do that through? What else? What else do you use as a mechanism to transfer knowledge and
practice to the younger generations? What would you call it if it's not a tradition?
Download?
Okay, yeah, if tradition is just how do you determine which tradition is?
Well?
I would say the one that the one that maintain and reflects the religion of the apostles.
Do we use the scriptures to help?
Not all always, but help you need?
Is a scripture the final authority? Or is it your tradition? No?
Not sold sept Well.
No, I'm asking that question.
What what made the scripture the scripture?
Like?
Where did they pick the books? When did they pick the books? Which books like? And and like? Your Bible, for example, was made by a man who wanted to take out wanted to take out some of the books that were previously considered part of the canon of scripture. So aren't you deciding arbitrarily which canons you follow are not because you chose.
They would have to?
You know they have to, But how do you know, like when when the when the Bible was was formed as such, Bible means library, okay, and the apostles means messengers okay, And messenger is the same as angel.
Angel means messenger. So like the Scripture itself uses the word angel to refer to God and to and to refer to angelic beings, to to to spiritual created beings. So when you're talking about you don't think there are apostles living today, it's like you're basically denying the possibility that God could choose somebody to speak for him through that person.
Right.
So what we're saying basically is that there is a living tradition that has formed the scripture, and that the scripture that you have comes from a splintered group that decided that some of the books it didn't like and it cut them off from the from the canon. So what Jimbob is trying to to to let's say, point out is that the very canon that you have was was collected by people, and it was collected by people
who wanted to revise a previously existing canon. So what he's pointing out is if you do that, you're already let's say, denying the authority that came before you. And you're saying, I'm the only authority. I'm the sole authority to decide who God is because the previous people they got it wrong. So either God lies to people or your tradition is built on nothing. What we say is no, no, no, The tradition is perfect. What Christ revealed to man was perfect.
The apostles had the fullness of the faith, and the canon was built up through time, collected through time through divine inspiration. And that tradition, the tradition that was able to collect the different writings which were let's say, separated by sometimes hundreds of years in time. Like that tradition, not only is it alive, but it's actually necessary as a belief for us to call ourselves Christian. Like, if we are Christian, then we believe that Christ revealed himself
to a church and that church is living. And I get the attempt to want to say, well, it's a community of believers, and you only know if they believe in their heart. But the reality is the church has definite boundary. And if you're saying, well, I'm going to choose these teachings but not those teachings, you've already gone way way out of line from the tradition. Like you're not in the tradition already, if you feel that you have the authority to go against what the tradition has already stated.
Also, there's a contradiction, Rocky, even if you gave yourself that advantage, you know, you called it an advantage, you'd be like, well, I don't need to hold these these past traditions, this past authority, whatever you come to as the truth, Rocky, of the the truth of the matter of being a Christian in practice, the moment you practice and teach it and try to preserve it. That's just a new tradition that you're creating. It's innovation. We call
it innovation. And so it's not like you'd be doing anything different than before anyway, you just be inconsistent with the past. But as far as Prince on principle, the principle of the argument is you're not actually against tradition, because no matter what you come to as the conclusion of the practice of religion, as soon as you teach it and preserve it and try to like teach it and push it down through generations, that's you got a tradition there. So the only question is is it consistent?
Is a coherent does it actually can you track it back to the Apostles? Well, you if there was a church rocky, no matter how you felt about it, no matter how you felt about it, if there was a church that could literally track its lineage back to the Apostles with documentation, does that hold any weight for you?
But everybody claims that No, not everyone claims that. Well, I don't know. Yeah, I'm agreeing with a lot of what you say about traditions and stuff, and I'm just trying to learn some stuff.
Sure, I'm not here.
I'm not saying you guys are wrong and that I'm right. I don't know. You guys make a lot of logical and reasonable thanks.
I mean argument, have you ever attended.
Scriptures? Are logical and reasonable?
They are? I Have you ever attended a divine liturgy at an Orthodox church? No? Okay, Well, I mean I know that the panel sphere, and debating this and the truth of matter and all this stuff can can lead us into just like just propositional circles. But if you were interested and things made sense to you, and you wanted uh to experience a participat like a participatory element
of Orthodox Christianity. Being that both Ivan and I are defending it, my my invitation to you is just go and experience it, because you it's not wouldn't be about debating the truth of the matter. I just just tell you that there's another.
I'll check going out. I've been to almost other church and.
Make sure it's a Russian or Greek Orthodox Okay, all right.
Also, what I would add is tradition.
Okay, you can read the I'll read this really quick. Sorry, easy raider eleven twenty bucks, thank you. I married a Mormon girl. I converted her. I grew up without religion, but after the process of joining the LDS Church, I now believe in Jesus Christ, but not the church. Through me learning, I have discovered Orthodoxy. He then asks, how do I approach the truth with my very devout wife? Very slowly and start to go and slowly but surely you share your experience and the value you're getting in
this kind of stuff. You know, obviously, talk to your priest. If you end up an easy writer Raider, start attending. Don't ask people online like me necessarily, but your priest will tell you the way in which you do that. For me, Honestly, easy Rader, I had to, Uh, it took three years. Now I just finally did my lifetime confession this morning, uh for a preparation for baptism in May. And Megan and I had to actually go through a longer process just together because she comes from a very
Protestant view. I came from a mixed view in practice, and it wasn't just like some simple insert like a like a Legos It wasn't like a Lego set. There's you have to use like patients. It is a big it's a big jump, it's a culture shock, it's it's a lot of things. So easier Rader, I could only say, talk to your your priest as you start attending, and honestly, maybe don't even anticipate contention. Maybe sometimes our anticipation of contention is sometimes they just follow you, know what I mean?
Sometimes they just follow you. So yeah, anything that you want to add on that I even being.
No, no, no, that that was perfect, that was perfect. I wanted I wanted to address some concerns that Rocky had. I mean, tradition means literally what is received. So if you think about the relationship between man and God in the beginning, when God created Adam, like Adam walked with God, right, and the there is like a there is a loss of communion. Okay, man falls, but it's not like we
fall and everything that man did was wrong. Right, there is a progressive fall like Adam falls, but then Caine falls even farther away, right, and Cane's descended, kidd, And like, this means that basically there is a tradition. Let's say that because if humanity had completely fallen outside let's say of God, like we would have destroyed ourselves. And that is what that is what the flood was meant to do. Right, the flood was meant to purify mankind because things had
been progressively getting worse and worse. But then let's say, Noah saved a kernel of that tradition of that, let's say relationship with God. Now we orthodox, we believe that we are saved. Let's say together because we humans, we relate to each other, and we aren't like you were making an emphasis on let's say call no manfather or the idea that that like we we cannot have let's say a human a human authority on top of us.
Right.
But the reality is that if we're in relationship with one another, like, we are learning from other people constantly, and the fact that we're limited means that we actually need the other person to compliment us, to teach us what we don't know, because we cannot approach God by ourselves, right, we don't have it in us to let's say, deify ourselves. We are deified. We are let's say, participating in God through our relationship with other people.
Right.
And it is in that sense that the tradition fully let's say it was never lost, never lost completely. Why because if it was lost completely, then we would have been obliterated, like if humanity had completely fallen out of favor from God, like God would have like destroyed humanity and started over. Why, Like God himself tells Moses, like, look, you're Israelites. I can like make them out of mud if they don't repent, so like go make sure and then goes Moses goes down the mountain, he breaks down
the tablets, and he like obliterates half the camp. That is like fallen into idolatry. So like God doesn't need anything from us, but he knows that we need him, so he allows us, let's say, to get progressively closer to him or to move away from him up to a certain limit. So what you're saying about not having anybody, let's say, above us, it's kind of very individualistic. It's like, I don't have anything above me, but I can be my own head, right, And the reality is no man
can do that. Like if you're in if you want to be consistent, then you have to admit that you yourself cannot let's say, deify yourself, that you yourself cannot say, oh, I've got it, because then you would be repeating what Eve did. You would be repeating what Adam and Eve did, which is like I'm simply grabbing, grabbing. Let's say, the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, and the idea of participating in Christ's mystical body is that we
can eat Christ. Christ is in the place of the knowledge of good and evil, but now we're taking it in humility. Letting God, like you said, be our head, but also through a people. Right, so the church, like nobody in the church is perfect. Nobody in the church says I'm perfect, because the moment you say I'm perfect, I'm already a saint, you're clearly in delusion. A true saint will not say, oh, I'm saved, I'm saved. I'm saved,
and you I have no idea, or everybody is saved. No, no, no. If you say everybody saved or I'm saved, what you're saying is basically, I don't have to do anything. I've already got it in the bag. I don't have anything more to learn like I've got it, and I don't care what your opinion is. I have nothing to learn from you, like you cut yourself from communion.
For instance, Rocky, this morning, I asked my priest about to reflect on when where he was at when he converted, and he laughed at me and then he said I he said converted past tense. He said, I'm still converting. So a perfect example of like this ongoing it's just like this ongoing path. There's no like I got there. I attained all the knowledge in this sort of thing. But Rocky, I'm I'm glad I have to start wrapping this.
I'm really glad that you were open to the back and forth and that you allow me to use my humor to mock you. I don't know what I would do without it, Rocky, consider it my weakness, but I'm glad you're open to it. So wherever you are located, maybe you can contact other people in your area. If you want to attend a divine liturgy, just as a viewer, you'll have to do nothing. You're not going to be asked to do anything but observe and experience. It may
again make it Antiochian or Greek Orthodox. And I would love for you to call back in and just tell us even your concerns or things you liked it didn't like. I would love to have you back on after you do that and tell us all about it.
All right, all right, I'm gonna check it out, all right, Thanks.
Rocky, Ivan. Do you have anything last to say? Uh before I getend the stream?
No, thank you for having me, Jimbob, It's always a pleasure. Congress.
Every cleaner, I haven't, Yvonne, you look cleaner.
Yeah, I've been working. I've been working a lot.
Okay, good? Maybe yeah, I live Northern Idaho area, Northern Idaho. Okay, there's definitely something there, there's something. Someone help out, Rocky. I don't know if you have a channel, help out Rocky, and maybe in the comments of this video once it posts, Rocky, you can check the the comments and someone will direct you. Northern Idaho shouldn't have a problem finding something.
Okay.
All right, With that said, I'm gonna end a stream. Take you guys down. Thank you so much, both of you. Appreciate you both, and until next time, audios, God bless you all, and find another location. I don't actually I can do a transfer from here. I think I think I might as well. There's there's five hundred something of you.
You.
You have two minutes to reach that enormous, greedy goal that I put up there a red super chat. It just feels nice when there's a red one in there. It just makes me feel good like the Mormons, you know what I mean. It makes me feel Mormon for a second. All right, who do we got here? Who do we have here? Who's up? Who's up for a transfer? Who we got here? W in the chat for Rocky saying he'll go check it out. I mean that's more than I can. That's better to me than anyone understanding
like energy essence. Honestly, that's better for me. That's better. Let's see what we got, Donovan Sharp Thorpe TV. Come on, Polo, let's go to apologetics. I need them to like me a little bit. Okay, Apologetics Road Tour. I'm trying to win them over a little bit. Here you go, Jason casselsie I actually spelt as set his name correct. It seems though the higher the super chat, the better I read. Have you guys noticed that, Jason Cassell, thank you huge
super Chat. Here you go, getting better at the grift. Thank you. I really appreciate that. Shout out to Andrew for teaching the ways. I don't know why he does a debate instructional video. Why is he doing a debate instruction video? Isn't it obvious what the instructional video needs to be? Yeah, you got a good point. There, you got a good point, got a grift, got a grift, and you're all heading over to that other channel. Be well, m God bless y'all. See you. What is it Wednesday?
I guess I'll see you maybe Friday, something like that. You know what I mean. Ye, let's do this, but.
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