Live Debate: Jay Dyer VS Brian Shapiro: Trump, Jones, God, Religion!

sort of stuff. But all right, let's start. I wanted to start off by asking you about something because I know you're friends with Alex Jones, right, and I know this is probably something more. We'll get into it a little bit, but bull well, you know, I come from Connecticut. I was raised in Connecticut, and obviously where the Sandy Hook shooting was. And I say to myself, and I've listened,

I've reviewed his ex wife. That's kind of irrelevant to this conversation that I've had private conversations with her, But I've also interviewed some of the parents who have lost their children, eight and nine year olds that were decapitated, and Alex Jones made their pain worse. And I thought what he did was reprehensible. And then he used the excuse of psychosis, which I think is utter bullshit. He

knew that that shooting happened. He's not a stupid guy, and he only lied about it on the air with his huge platform and said that they were actors, you know what he said. And he only did that for clicks and money. And you're making the pain of parents, like I said, some of them who I had to talk to an interview, and my heart goes out to them, and I'm sure yours does as well. And he called

them actors, and he made their pain worse. And I find only a reprehensible, despicable human being would do what Alex Jones does. Now, he is a conspiracy theorist, and I understand he says a lot of batshit crazy stuff. But if you don't hurt somebody by doing that, then I don't have a problem with it. You could think nine eleven was an inside job and you can find if you're not hurting anybody. But he hurt those people

who are already grieving the loss of their children. And I'm wondering how you could be friends with somebody who does that. I just I don't It's unbelievable to me that he would even do something like that and then blame it on psychosis, Like, how could you square up and be friends with somebody like that? Because I don't know you. I don't know you, I've never hung out with you. I'm just asking, like, how how can you be friends with somebody who did that? And are you willing to call that out?

has admitted that he made a huge mistake. I remember at the time when the trials were happening, one thing that I noticed in a lot of the you know, examinations and the prosecution questioning, was that there seemed to be quite a bit of laxity when it came to vetting the guests, and that was hammer Home with multiple people that produced the show, and the way that I'm sure you know, the way that media works, especially for high profile people, is that a lot of that is

farmed out to people that work for you to vet the guests and whatnot. So I think there was some significant failures, mainly with vetting people like Wolfgang. How big people that ended up being I think probably con men, and Alex was lax in that. I think that was a huge mistake. I think that there is precedent not for what happened at Sandy Hook, but for the idea of government being involved in types of things like that,

like the Operation Gladio for example. That's a publicly declassified document to.

I'm friends with Tim Poole. He said some things about it that I actually agree with. But to me, Alex Jones does what Candace Owens does, which is say things that you know are not true. You know are not true. Alex Jones knew that innocent children were murdered. He knew that those weren't actors. They're dead, and yet he went on the air and called them actors. Those family members, as you know, were threatened, they had threats to their life. He knew that those children were dead, he knew that

those families were grieving. I have an issue not necessarily with conspiracy theorists, but conspiracy theorists like Candace Owns and like Calex Jones that say things knowing they're not true and knowing that they will hurt people. Alex Jones' comments at times, not just the Sandy Hook shooting, hurt people, and I find that only a despicable human being would profit off of something like that. I'm glad that he has to pay out that money. Like I said, I've

had private conversations with his ex wife. I don't know what's true. I don't know what's not true. That's why I'm not going to share the conversations I had with her. But what I do know is I could never associate myself with somebody like that. Who it's good to have difference as of opinions. We probably have a lot of different opinions on a lot. I think that's great, that's what makes America great. But I think Alex Jones is a scumbag. And by the way I met Alex Jones,

he is a different person off the camera. He doesn't have in my opinion, that persona or Hey, was that good? Was this good? I mean, I don't know. I don't think he's a good person. And I'm not saying guilty by association. I'm not trying to make a bad argument, but I just can't fathom or understand how anybody could hang out with a guy like that who literally made well, I'm just trying to understand how anybody, not just you, but anybody would would be okay associated and you host

on the on that network, Like, I just don't understand. Well.

on psychosis. There is no medical information to prove that.

it will hurt people, and they don't fucking care. They say things knowing that it will hurt people, knowing that it's probably not true. By the way, I don't buy the fact that Alex didn't think it was a real shooting. He knew it was. Like I said, Alex is not a stupid guy. He knew that there were innocent young children that died, and he called them actors now regardless of what all their stuff might have been going on in his mind. He made a lot of money off that.

Now in the end it's going to cost him money. I don't think we should be allowed to say things like that with no justification, and it hurts people. Those families had death threats, They had death threats, Jay, and they hadn't even buried their kids yet, eight nine year olds. And as you can see, I get visibly angry talking about this guy because I think he's a horrible human being, and I think his entire network is a fucking joke.

It's a bunch of tinfoil hat morons who spread conspiracy theories about COVID, They spread conspiracy theories about the deep state, they spread conspiracy theories about the twenty twenty election, and the guy who runs the whole thing spread conspiracy theories about a shooting where a bunch of eight and nine year old kids were murdered were kept in. I mean, I don't even think the I should be allowed to even have a show. That's my personal thing.

this off the air a couple of minutes ago. Didn't even know my position on vaccines, and I don't want to get too deep into the vaccine stuff because you know, some platforms don't allow it. Didn't even know my position on the vaccines, and just assume that I want everyone to get ten boosters. They say things about people not doing their homework, not under even and by the way, I said I would go on their show. I was

talking to somebody from their network. I said, listen, I will go on that show and I will defend my positions. Harrison didn't want me on. I call that a coward. If you're willing to talk shit about somebody, which is fine. I'm a big boy. I can handle it, but then you don't want that person to come on. I invite anybody on my show. Nick Fuentes can do my show if he wants to. I think he's an awful human being. But I would have had oj Simpson do my show.

It's not the criticism. He's no longer with us unfortunatelyfortunately whichever way you look at it. But I'm willing to have anybody on my show that I disagree with, even if they're despicable people. If Alex Jones wanted to do my show, I would probably be a little bit more heated with him than am you, because I'm not blaming you for the stuff that that Alex Jones said. Make it. What's another topic that you think of COVID spread COVID?

I think he's spread lies about the vaccines. He sells his stupid pills on his website to make money that there's no evidence that any of those pills actually help you if you had COVID, I would talk about nine to eleven a little bit more, because I know he's talked about nine to eleven a lot. What about nine eleven, Well, he thinks it was an inside john right right, Okay, Well we can get into that. We can get into that.

So what's the crazy talks about the deep state all the time with no evidence to back up his claims about the deep state? What is the deep state?

that's funny. That's ten year old humor. I don't think it's anything funny in saying a president is gay. I don't think that. I mean, unless we're ten years old. What about faking gay? You? I mean, okay, but you get what I'm saying, right, Well, you just laugh, So you do think it's first right, Well, here's the problem, right, Alex Jones has a huge platform, and I think it's important for people to choose their words wisely and to

be responsible. We agree. I think that Alex Jones should not have done what he did when it came to the Sandy Hook shooting. It hurt people. Now, if you make a joke that doesn't hurt somebody, Okay, fine, if you have a conspiracy theory that doesn't necessarily hurt somebody, then that's one thing, right. But when you have the platform that Alex Jones has and you say things that are unproven, stuff that is just blatantly ridiculous. They said

things about me that aren't true. I have a problem with that, and I don't think that network is a serious network. I don't think that is a serious news network. Give It's one thing. If you give Kanye West a platform, heck, I would interview Kanye West and ask him about his anti Semitism. But Alex Jones, he was praising Adolf Hitler, and Alex Jones is sitting there with his thumb up his ass. I watched that specifically disagree with him and said that he didn't believe Hitler was a good guy.

And but the very next day, Richard Grove and I hosted that next day, yeah talked about that. We did not agree with. Okay, It's one thing to say you don't agree with it, and I'm glad you did that, But if someone sitting next to me is praising Adolf Hitler, I would call them for what they are. You are an anti Semite, and you are a moron if you if you, if you praise a man who's responsible for murdering anybody, let alone millions of people, there's something wrong

with you. And I would say that to Kanye. I wouldn't sit here and say, well, you know, Kanye, I really disagree with you on that. I saw that. I don't respect people who praise evil, murderous dictators. That's what Alex Jones did in that interview. Okay, he coddled Kanye. Well, well, he praised He praised Kanye West in some ways, and he was very sad. He coddled him, He coddled him. It was a fluffer interview. And I think we also have a responsibility to question people and to be tough

on people that praise murderous dictators. Alex Jones did not do that. So on one side of the coin, Kanye West will sit there and praise Adolf Hitler and he'll say, well, I disagree with that. But on the other side of the coin, he'll just bash Democrats and left wingers and aoc an attacker for being a bartender. He's more tough on somebody like AOC than somebody like Kanye West, who praises Adolf Hitler and is a Jew hater. Make no mistake about it, Kanye is a jew hater, anti Semitic,

piece of scum. I don't care whether he's mentally ill or not. And these gripers that go around, I just think they're really bad people. Right.

I mind understand how morally you could associate yourself and I'm trying to understand that as a friend, not just for doing a show.

somebody like that. I find that in general, and I'm going to make a general statement now, people that are big fans of Alex Jones or friends of Alex Jones tend to also be big fans of Donald Trump, and they throw they're willing to push aside the Epstein stuff. They're willing to push aside his behaviors, the way he talks about women in gold Star families and POW's and the fact that he's named thousands of times in the Epstein Falls. I think the same kinds of people who

support Donald Trump are gravitated towards Alex Jones. And yes, I'll say it again, I think Donald Trump and Alex Jones are similar. I think they're both horrible human beings. They're horrible human beings who probably only care about themselves.

you my opinions. There's no book on determining. I'm just telling you, Uh, simply put, if you're a person who intentionally lies about a school shooting when children are murdered to make money and clicks, you're a fucking disgusting human being. But how do you know a person's motives? Maybe you because Alex Jones does it all the time. He says things, he's over the top and he says things. How do you know the motives? So you think Alex Jones didn't have what do you think his motive saying?

The reason why he apologized and says I shouldn't have said that, which, by the way, he said in a courtroom, and then he said it was a kangaroo court, and he attacked the judge and he attacked the prosecutors instead of just being a man and saying, you know what, I really fucked up. I really shouldn't have said that stuff. What happened to those families was awful. Instead, he does what Donald Trump does. It's a kangaroo court. I didn't do anything wrong, So no, I disagree with you, Jay.

I don't think Alex Jones would have ever retracted what he said, and I don't think Alex Jones would have ever apologized if, in fact, he was never facing a civil lawsuit, which he lost. That's my personal opinions. We can move on to a rock because it's way to prove it. We can do that. Well, that's just my personal opinion. Obviously, there's no way to one hundred percent proven other than the fact that to my knowledge, I don't think Alex has ever apologized for anything else on

the air in the past. The only thing I could ever recall that he's ever apologized for or retracted was the comments he made about the school shooting and those kids being acted. And he recently retracted his position on Iran.

he's upset about what Pam Bondi said like two months ago. Well, yeah, he's criticized at times the Trump administration. He gives the apology that you want. Basically, it's not really the apology that I want. It's it's basically it wasn't really an apology. He just basically when it comes to the Epstein stuff, he's talked about how disappointed he was. He was wrong about Pam Bondi. He was wrong about Pam Bondy, and he thought Pam Bondi no.

I think he only says things as an act to get clicks and to make money. What he did was disgusting. And then the reason why this topic is so it should be personal to anybody, but it's even more personally because I grew up about twenty minutes away from Sandy Hook number one, number two. I've interviewed some of those families who have to wake up every day without seeing

their kids. It's reprehensible and the fact that somebody like Alex Jones, and this is irrefutable, made their grief even worse. With what Alex Jones put those families through is reprehensible, and I think only a reprehensible and repugnant human being would do what Alex Jones did. I have zero respect for him. I don't care how many followers he has. I have no more respect for him than I do like a Candace Owens type, and I know we'll probably

agree on gandis owns. There is a way to have differences of opinions, and there is a way to have a conversation without hurting people. And there are too many people, particularly in right wing media today, that do that. They make claims that hurt people. They lie, They attack undocumented immigrants in brown people every single day, making it seem like all these undocumented immigrants are going to rape your kids. They're wrong. They lied about the terrorist attack in New Orleans.

They said it was undocumented immigrant. They said it was because of Joe Biden's open border policies. They lie. They lied in conspiracy theories about what happened to Paul Pelosi when Paul Pelosi was attacked with a hammer, and Alex Jones was one of those guys that spread the conspiracy theory that Paul Pelosi had some sort of gay relationship with the guy that almost killed him with a hammer. Did Alex Jones ever apologize for that when the police

report came out? And Matt Gates when he was in office another repugnant piece of garbage, and Ted Cruz spread those conspiracy theories. These right wingers don't apologize. Usually. I'm glad that Alex Jones has done that, but there's a lot of people on the right that don't. They don't retract, they don't apologize. When you get something wrong, why don't you wait until the information comes out first before you

you spread conspiracy? There is I'm not talking about you, I'm just saying in general terms people on the right, and that's my one of my biggest criticisms is with the lower lumers of the world and so many others. It's all about clicks, Jay, It's about money and clicks. They don't care whether they get it right or not.

They I'm generalizing. There's a lot of people on the right on X they want to be the first one to say it was an undocumented immigrant, it was a black person, it was this without knowing, and then when they get it wrong, they don't retract and they don't apologize. And I'm sorry if I'm going on a rant here, but on X when you look at when they're fact checked, what is that called on the bottom? Checking community notes? Yeah? What is the point of a community note if somebody

is getting a community note like two hundred times. There are right wingers out there that have been community noted two hundred times. They're not suspended, their accounts don't get taken down. Why are we community noting people when they literally it happens to them every day. So anyway, I digress, Go ahead.

the best. But I would assume that maybe you engage in debating about who's good and who's bad because that's the easy, low tier route to go to get attention, to get clicks.

would be money and get more attention. The fact that most people think that really has nothing to do, Okay, well, that's I think I would like to think that a logical opinion would be that the reason why fallacies. Okay, well, if you think that Alex Jones does this stuff. I mean, do you think appeal to masses is a fallacy? No, but I would say I would say, you don't think

it's perhaps. But the point that I was trying to get at is that just just Alex Jones says these things, not because he needs to get this off his chest or he wants to be an inn. So you're just saying what his motives are. Okay, Well, well what do you think his motives are? Help me understand Alex Jones. You're friends with them. I've listened to Alex in two thousand and three.

big geopolitical perspective. There are minutia areas where I would disagree particularly with wh who he brought on during that time period of Sandy Hook that was not properly vetted.

for Anglo Iranian Oil Company which would become VP. So I think that from the very beginning, this was a destabilization, a regime change that was brought about for the purpose of a big corporate interest in Iran. I think it's really not that different today if we fast forward to where we are now, it's a lot of repeat of what we saw with Iraq, which was you know, false intel,

weapons of mass destruction, which is not true. Saddam was brought into power by the CIA, trained by the stay of that, he's given weapons of mass destruction, usually by the CIA, to fight the Iran Iraq war. And then when we decided that he had to spoiled like spoiled milk, then we didn't need a Sodomini Moore. And I've never been pro war all the way back to nine to eleven. I've been anti war pretty much because I think most of the wars are fought for interest, not in the

best preview of American people. Their fought for corporate and banking interest. For the most part. I'm not a past fist. I believe in self defense. But so the same situation with Iran, I think that we've seen the administration all the way back to Obama with the Green Revolution. They were pushing for a kind of a more democratic any D style Color revolution back in twenty nine, ten eleven.

But now what we have a situation where Trump has just greenlit under I think probably influence from BB Yahoo to go for a full on just you know, you know, taking.

in some terminology, was blaming Israel. And I agree, by the way, with a lot of the stuff you said about Benjamin and I am listen, I'm a Jewish guy. It's not anti Semitic to be critical of the Israeli government. I've maintained that position. I am very anti Israeli government. I am very pro Israeli people. I think they're great people, but I'm anti Benjamin Uttaw who plays Donald Trump like a fiddle. Then we were told by Marco Rubio that Israel,

you know forced our hand. Then we have this school bombing and Donald Trump it was a tomahawk missile. Iran doesn't have tomahawk missiles. Everybody knows that, and he blames Iran. Does he even know that they don't have tomahawk missiles. It's this guy is such a madman, and he's such an imbecile and Pete hegsett this. They don't take responsibility. We're told this is the party of protecting children, and now we're told, well, this was about the Marines and

this was about attacking the ships. I agree with what you said about Iraq. That was an ill advised war. Thousands of American soldiers died, hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis died, trillions of dollars that were still paying off. How is this any different? Are you disappointed you voted for Trump. I know you're not defending this war, which

I appreciate. Are you disappointed in your vote? Kamala Harris would not have start You could have your criticisms of Kamala and that's fine, and we can get into that. I'm not saying she was perfect. She would not have started a war in iron I do not believe this war would have happened.

a little differently about this war. Well, here's where we disagree right now. I would be intol Ukraine for sure. Who started the war in Ukraine? Uh, NATO, That's not true.

Who invade Ukraine? It is a forcing I disagree with you.

a defense for Vladimir's Ukraine problem. Okay, So do you think we let's say, people if they started coming into your property and they were saying, oh, well, you don't have a right to you know, react because you know we're not actually causing you to react, We're just coming on your property. So do you think it's appropriate for an evil murderer's dictator, which is who Vladimir Putin is. I would hope that we could at least, even though we disagree on this, you would agree with me that

Vladimir Putin doesn't have a regard for human life. He kills journalists in his own country that disagree with him. If you talk about Vladimir Putin on the phone, there have been instances where you're massacred, he kills. He's an evil dictator. Can we at least agree on that? I mean, I don't.

to criticize politicians and the president. In Russia, you will be murdered if you do that. That's what makes him a dictator. That's part of what makes him a dictator. And the point I was trying to make was was that Donald Trump has right. And I'm not saying you're a Trump apologist, but Donald Trump has rolled out the red carpet for an evil dictator on American soil. To this day, no Russian sanctions. In fact, they've blamed Ukraine. Now I know, I guess we disagree on what's going

on in Ukraine. But Donald Trump's foreign policy is a joke. The world is laughing at us right now when it comes to tariffs, the one hundred and seventy five billion dollars that he stole from the American people, and now we were told we were going to get tariff checks and now it's turned into well, you can sue us if you'd like to. I can go policy by policy with you. Ice. I agree that because I'm sure this is a topic that you talk about a lot, which

is immigration. I am pro border security. I want people to come to this country legally. However, I don't want people that have been in this country for decades, that pay taxes, that have families here sent to an L Salvador prison. That's happened. Not everybody was nonviolent, but the majority of those people, I think it was over sixty percent of the people that they sent to an El Salvador prison were non violent criminals. I don't want people

murdered in the streets. What happened in Minneapolis is a travesty. What happened to Renee Good and Alex Pretty is repugnant. It's terrible. And then you had christinoam who is no longer there now, who called them domestic terrorists hours after these shootings without a full investigation, and by the way, the evidence proves it. That's why they took that Boveno asshole out of Minneapolis, and they took out two or three thousand troops. Listen, violent criminals ninety percent of the country.

Democrats and Republicans agree if you're a violent criminal and you're undocumented, deported, absolutely, I'm on board with that. But I have a serious problem with a party that says, come on into our country, just do it the right way, do it legally. We don't care what the color of your skin is. Which is the party that has made it more difficult for people to become legal citizens. In some cases it takes ten or fifteen years for people

to be naturalized. The Democrat party has tried to come up with a way to make it easier for people to get a pathway to citizenship, and meanwhile, Republicans make it more difficult. Let's make it easier for people. I want them to be vetted, but let's make it a little bit easier for people to become citizens, and let's give them some more incentives. And if you happen to be undocumented and your nonviolent criminal, which I think is important, then you have to pay a penalty. But let's come

up with something that works for the American people. I don't think separating families and murdering people on the streets is good policy, and that's what the Trump administration has done. I would actually just say we don't need immigration really at all.

I've read Kudnov Clergy It's real. His book Practical Idealism discusses this explicitly that plan was adopted by the Royal Society to change the demographics of the European Union, and then we have the same situation I think in America where you have the flooding of the country with all kinds of third world people, to change the demographics, not just for political reasons, but I think ultimately for long term socialist international reasons.

They weren't handled properly, and we had a woman in Chicago who was shot five times, almost died, and everybody in Ice, including Donald Trump, Christy Noams, Stephen Miller, everybody, based on text messages, were praising this guy for shooting this woman five times. They claimed that Ms. Martinez was trying to impeding an investigation, and then all of a sudden, when the body camera footage came out, it said the total opposite and they were tracted the charges. Did anybody apologize?

couple dozen, and they're good people. They're nice people, they're family people. Not every Muslim wants harm on America. Not every Muslim it is a terrorist. But there are people on the right that do. Laura Lumer thinks that all Muslims should be deported. She is despicable. She is a racist. Now, I disagree with you on the fact that you don't

want any immigrants in this country at all. But I will say this, every single time Donald Trump says make America great again, it always meant to me, make America white again. That's what I believe many in his base beliefs would racist. Yes, yes, but you're saying race isn't wrong. Absolutely it's wrong. And I'm saying his slogan, and a lot of people that abide by his slogan want America to be white. And and I and I I don't know about you just said, what's wrong with the people

coming here? I don't see anything wrong with people from what's wrong with them having their heritage and their tradition. It depends specifically what you're talking about. But if they're not breaking the law, then let them believe in what they're.

live in the United States. So I'm going to speak on what I want here in the country applies to people in America, doesn't apply to our country. In a perse relative in a perfect world, it's arbitrary. In a perfect arbitrary, I'm answering you. In a perfect world, I would love the entire world to operate in a state of live where you want to live, have the religion that you want. And I don't want people to be judged based on religion ors sing j in a perfect world?

Should they in a perfect world? I want want every You talk about this world, so should they in this world? Yeah? I think everybody of every country should take in immigrants. I think untold infinity as long as you're vetted properly. Well, I mean, I mean, listen, I come from a different cloth, I guess and in my personal opinion, I don't care what you look like. I don't care what the color of your skin is unless I don't care. No, you're not letting me finished. No, it has something to do

with that I want. It's a double center. No, it's not a double standard. You're not hearing me out. I don't care where you're from. You could be white, you could be black. I don't care. You could be as one hundred percent white like me. I want everyone to have the same opportunities as long as you're vetted properly. Yes, I do want border secure. I want people to be vetted. But the difference, to the fundamental difference here is I don't care where you're from as long as you don't

have bad intention. It's crazy you don't care about that. But that wasn't the question.

I don't want rapists or child molesters, or quite frankly, people that you support like Donald Trump. I don't want people like that in this country. And if they're properly, I'm being serious that. I know it's funny, but I'm being serious. I don't want people like Donald Trump, your orange people like Donald Trump, who are thirty four count fellow liable sexual abusers, people that you support like Donald Trump, who's named thousands of times in the Epstein files. I mean,

I don't want people like that in this country. I don't care what the color of their skin is, like you, I don't care where what country they're from. I don't want people in this country like Donald Trump. And I can give you multiple reasons why you voted for a thirty four count villain. You voted for a liable sexual abuser. Why are you so worried about people from other countries coming here? When the guy who you support the president

of the United States is like a fallacy machine. No, it's not a fallacy machine, it's logic.

he's not doing that. He's who cares what this guy? Actually? Were you calling me out for voting for what he campaign. You want good people? Trying to associate me with a bad guy again, which, well, yeah, because you support him and you voted for him, you have no problem supporting up going with his policies already. What about his behavior? You want good people in this country, You don't want migrants.

Politicians have crazy behavior. Right, gave me another politician that's ever been the president that's a thirty four count felon, that's a liable sexual abuser. Please give me one example. Jay Uh, Well, I don't know the number of because because you couldn't find that. Because you couldn't find that, I don't defend Bill Clinton. You can try the what about? I mean what about? You asked me how would that be? What about? To answer your question, it was Bill Clinton

a thirty four count film. I didn't say he was. I said there is probably nobody with thirty four counts or whatever. Yeah, you voted for that guy. Well, you asked him that.

We were My my personal opinion is that I want it's the land of opportunity, and I believe that if you're vetted and you're you know, you're not a criminal, we should give everybody the opportunities to succeed in this country. You go through the process of becoming a legal citizen. There are a ton of immigrants that have come to this country that have done so many great things for this What I was arguing, well, I mean, you just want the borders to be completely closed, which I think

is absurd. Okay, I'm sorry. I just for the countries that do that seem to do I just disagree with you. I just I just think that And again, you might not like the comparison I'm making here, but I think it's important. You seem to have a concern and you think it's bad for the country to have immigrants coming here no infinity immigrant. Yeah, Well again, you know, I think maybe there needs to be something put in place. But you've made the case that you don't want immigrants

here at all. You want to close the borders completely, right, it's not needed? Yeah, well, I mean there's a lot of things that you might think is not needed. But how does that affect you negatively if immigrants are coming up. I'm not arguing for what effects mean personally. I'm just for America country in general.

and I disagree with you. By the way, if you're seeking asylum from a country, you know, from Mexico for example, and you're going about it the right way and you filled out the right paperwork, it is illegal for the Trump administration to deport you. Do you understand that they're doing that right now? It is against the law. And there they are going against what our constitution says. It's

happening right now as we speak. You have ICE agents outside of courtrooms when they have filled out the proper paperwork.

So it's more important for the long term benefit of the country in general than to highlight as the left off and does I'm not saying you're a leftist, but they highlight specific cases to do emotional peals and so like you've done in this debates, a lot of emotional PILs, which also fallacy.

And the point that I was trying to make is if you care about our constitution, which I hope you do. I do as well, it says in our Constitution our forefathers, it says not any citizen has the right to do process. It says any person and as much as your person also can be a lawbreaker and people that are here absolutely absolutely, but that doesn't mean they don't have the right to do process.

You talked about mostly charge cases. Then you ask me about that I'm asking you about and I was responding to the law which states if you are from certain countries like Mexico and you're seeking asylum, and you come to this country and you fill out the proper paperwork, and you're in the middle of that process, and you show up in front of a judge, it is illegal for the Trump administration to deport you. And the point that I was trying to make is this isn't a

one off for a couple of cases. Thousands of people have been deported in the middle of the paperwork process, where in our own constitution it says they cannot deport you if you're seeking asylum from certain countries. It's against the law. That's not an emotional argument, but it's a law that's being.

citizen than you do an undocumented immigrant. I think that's very important to note because a lot of people think that brown people and undocumented emigrant's coming into this country are going to rape your kids and they're going to kidnap your wife. It's just not the case. There are examples there are examples of undocumented immigrants that do horrible things. I want those people to ported. I don't want them here.

But the overwhelming majority of these people that are coming into this country, that are here already, many of them you know, that are undocumented, are not bad people with bad intentions. I want bad people, uh thrown out of the true But it's still illegal. Yeah, okay, okay, so it's against the law. Yeah so you think so. Your your opinion is if you break the law, there should be consequences. Is that a fair assessment? Sure? What are the consequences for Donald Trump, the man who you support.

You're laughing, but it's I mean.

don't think you're a Trump apologist. I don't think you are. Based on the twenty minutes i've known you, I don't think you are. But you want people to be held to account. If it's somebody, by the way, it's a misdemeanor. If you come into this country legally, it's not even a felony. But but you want people to held to the highest extent of the law in this case of misdemeanor. Okay, fine.

Uh January sixth, Let me ask you another question. Since we're talking about the law, do you do you think January sixth happens. If Donald Trump doesn't lie about the twenty twenty election, would January six have happened? Yeah? If Donald Trump didn't lie, which clearly it was a lie, I don't care what Alex Jones says. If Donald Trump didn't lie about the twenty twenty election because he didn't win,

does January sixth happen? I have no idea. You have no idea, all right, Hypothetically speaking to you, asked me a lot of questions I want to ask. Can I just touch on this? But I want to use some interrogation as well. Fair enough you can, as you can ask me anything you like. Last question, well, to this issue.

You're telling me that if Donald Trump did what every other president did in American history, which was concede, which he didn't do, you think January sixth still happens and people are trying to overthrow a free and fair election. You can't add answer that question. You don't know.

a free and fair election? No? Is there any evidence of widespread voter front that you can share with us today? This is my opinion. I don't spend a whole lot of time focusing on voter fraud or voter election issues because I'm not really into day to day politics, but studying the history of the CIA the way it works, I think that they can easily tap into their techniques for regime change and throwing elections. Donald Trump win the

Donald Trump win the twenty twenty four election free and fair? Then? Or would you hold that same standard and maybekommonalt No. I think that Trump had overwhelming popular so so it's only free and fair if Donald Trump wins. But I just gave you my opinion based on what though there's no evidence of widespread voter for he had chances my opinion on how the CIA riggs elections. But go ahead, So a lot of what you've argued, you keep saying

my opinion, my opinion, my opinion. I'm just curious, like where on what basis ought we go with your opinion on what which opinion? Every topic tonight has come back to your specific specific on what what what topics in general? On the on what basis ought we to choose your opinions? Well, first of all, it's not an opinion, but you said that the Trump administration is breaking the law.

I welcome you in my country. So what's a pretty fair logical We follow your position? Because it's logical? Why ought we follow not being a racist? Because that's kind of when I'm I think if you don't want anybody from any other country, which is what you have said, you want our borders completely shut down. I believe that is Unamerican. Okay. The beauty of this country is that we have the freedom and others have the freedom to

make something of themselves so wherever they come from. And I think that's a beautiful thing about the United So I can't speak for Japan. Why ought we follow that though? Because you because you like it, you think it's beautiful. Why this country was founded on that our freedom? Many countries have founded on all kinds of things that are stupid.

So your reasoning is the country is going to go down the crapper if we that's that's your reasoning behind it, and I okay, so fine, my reasoning is dumb, but I want to know why we have to follows dumb. I'm just saying, why are we follow yours? Because we have been following it for decades and I think we're the best country in the world for for a very very long time. Circular argument following, because I do believe the immigrants have a lot of benefits to the United

States of America. You're not telling me why we ought to follow that. Well, produce jobs that immigrants take, that most Americans are not willing to take, working for wages that and Americans they help the economy. There's no question that it helps the Why are those things? So? In other words, you're assuming that there's this good that you have access to the different cultures I think is good.

I think I think learning different cultures and uh, I think what's made America great is being uh for, for lack of a better term, I'm a mixt of different colors in the crayon box and being diverse. I think diversity is a good thing, and I don't.

the ethics? Is your ethics subjective and relative or is it objective? Yeah? I think there are people out there that could disagree with me that are maybe don't like brown people. I think there are people out there that have different opinions that think that brown people are I guess I guess you could make the case. I guess you could make the case it's subjective. I guess you can make that case. I mean, some people could say the Klan isn't racist. I guess that's subjective to you

could make the case. You could make the case. I know what's subjective means? What does it mean, I know what it means. I understand what it means. And this is see, this is sean. I'm not sure that they do so in terms of relativism and what is that? What do you think that this is? Okay, I'll answer your question, but this is this is the Andrew Wilson approach. Well, I've been doing this debate for twenty five years, I know, and you can be doing it for one hundred years.

It doesn't mean anything to me, means dick. Okay, so let's continue the conversation. I don't have to have as no no, no, no no. This is a word game that you're trying to play with me. So I do and ethics games. You can say all racism is word games. To the point that I'm trying to say for the good and you're saying it's a word game. So your position is based on I've told you you're not listening. First of all, it's a benefit to the economy. Why is that a show you in the question what's the good?

Why is it a benefit that it people help our economy?

religion or beliefs. Certainly you misunderstood the question. So the question wasn't are there people who have different positions or do they have a right to different position? The question was, what's the epstemic basis you have for your ethics, which was purely subjective. Yeah, do you know? Well then I mean, I mean, I mean, if it's purely subjective, then in debate,

then you But no, I've not conceded anything. What I'm trying to tell you is that when it comes to immigrants that are in this country relative I'm talking about legal immigrants. I can give you statistics that show you that it benefit follow your position. I'm telling you because you don't want our economy to be boosted.

I don't have a problem with anybody from other parts of the world, from different cultures and different backgrounds and different religions coming into this country, so long as they're properly vetted and we know they're not criminals and they have good intentions. I don't think that's a threat to the United States of America. Now you do you think it's bad for America. You think it's a threat to America. I disagree with you. I've given you multiple reasons why.

First of all, a lot of these people are good for our economy. They're hard workers, they want a better life for it themselves. I think diversity is a good thing. I don't want everybody to look like you and me. I think diversity is good for the country. Now you can say, well, you know that's just your opinion and you're you're not basing it on anything. Well, you can base it on the crime rates. You could base it on how it benefits our economy, the financial numbers. There

are a lot of different ways. You know, why should we follow All those things are assertions about what are the cases? Well, tell me why should we follow you? Why should we follow you? I've answered your question. You might not like my answer. Why should we follow you? And why should we close the orders completely? If the ethics that you prefer are relative and subjective, then in a debate, that means that anyone can just state the exact opposite and it's just as legitimate as your position.

To me, this isn't about winning a debate. This isn't about to me when I come to a conversation. It's not about playing word games. It's not about talking about philosophy. Would you think it's because that's what we're doing now. I want you to explain to me why it's so bad, so you just don't want to get drilled into your position to give the basis. It's not about me being afraid of anything. I want to know. I want to

know why position based on good I gave you. I gave you my ma I gave you, I gave you my reasons. Why I think immigrants coming into this country as a whole. That's just like I'm telling you, well, yeah, that's what this entire thing is about. It's about opinion. I'm okay, Well, you can have a different way of talking to people, and you have that right to do that, but I don't play that game. So I'm asking you

why why do you want the borders closed? And why do you think immigrants all over the world are so bad for America? Tell me why.

have friends that are from the faith of Islam. I don't come from the cloth of judging somebody by where they're from. I judge them on their character. I think Alex Jones is just as much of a threat to the United States of America. I think Donald Trump is just as much of a threat to the United States of America than the overwhelming majority of immigrants that come to this country.

personal opinion. I think there are bigger threats in the United States of America people that look like you than anybody that looks brown that comes into this country. You know, hopefully what's up. Racism is wrong? Right? Yeah, how am I being racist? Well you just divided up your assessments on the basis of yeah, because you are very concerned with people is wrong. Yeah, absolutely, racism is wrong. I have no problem with white people racism right now. No,

I'm not. I'm doing orange people. I don't care what the color of skin Donald Trump is. Yeah, because you seem to be having a problem with people that come from other backgrounds differently than you. I think that there are people all sorts of people, different colors. But racism is also subjective or is it morally wrong? In general? Racism is terrible, it's wrong. It's horrible. Everybody anybody who's

a racist. So now you're not a relativists subjectivist. When did I ever say that it's okay to be racist? It's another word game. No, you either, so either something is relative or it's objective. And now racism is objectively morally wrong everywhere. But your ethics was relativists and subjectivists. So you just I've been very very clear, and I'll make it very very simple for you. Racism is wrong on what base? This and that was subjective on any basis? No,

what is your base? When you judge people based on your skin color? When you judge people and treat them, is that universally morally wrong? I believe so yet Okay, but now you're not a relativist or subjectivist.

so it's not universal. So it's not universal. So you just contradicted So it's not a contradiction what I'm about to say it's universal. It's not universal. That's a contradiction. What's your definition of what racism is? What about do you think it's universal? Is it universal? Right? I don't. I mean, I don't know even what racism is technically, don't know what racism is. Is that a serious statements you expect because when people define it, it gets defined

in a million different ways. And your situation, you just did a racist on to me. I'm a bipop person. I see that black indigenous personal. I'm sure you are, and how there you? So you should be so you would want you to be deported them? So let me be clear on this, Okay, The reason why I said people who look like you is not an attack on all white people. The reason why I said that is because the reason why I said that, which I think

you're struggling to understand respect. I don't. I mean, I don't think there's anything funny when it comes to racism. But racism is subjective. But also can call you word games are So if I say A and non a, is that a word game or is that a contradiction. So here's the point that a contradiction, not a second. Calm down for a second, don't so logic is relaxed.

Second is logical. Point that I was trying to make was that you seem to think that if we'll allow a lot of immigrants coming into this country, yes, it's bad for America. The right that I was traveling. The point that I was trying to make is people like your good friend Alex Jones and people who you voted for, like Donald Trump, to me, are probably more of a danger to this country than most immigrants that are coming

into this country. But yet you want to be concerned about all these people over the world that you claim are got to cause a genocide.

wing idiots. And if someone gets in there that is on the left or in the middle, Pete Hexth does not call on them, that is against our democracy to begin with. Anyway, I think that's a joke when you look at the White House press briefings and we're just talking about the media right now. You ask me about the media when you have idiots like Jack pisobic and listen, I think Tim Poole, I don't think Timpole's an idiot, but I think Tim Poole would agree. He's not a journalist.

He's a talk show host, just like me. Talk show hosts and opinionated people should not be in that room. That's not about opinionated people. That should be about strictly journalists doing their job. And I find that an attack on democracy as well. I think that is a threat to democracy. It's a threat to this country. It's a threat what happened on January sixth. It's a threat that he still has yet to concede an election that was not stolen, by the way, there's no evidence of widespread

voter fraud. You cannot you couldn't articulate that whatever you said about the CIA or the FBI or whatever you said. Okay, well act so all of a sudden. Now it's okay for you to have an opinion, But if I have an opinion on that, you're playing word as the justification for your what's your justice? I asked for the justicers for your morals, which you're not to our opinion. Okay, it's fair enough. What's your justification that the twenty twenty

election was stolen? Let's use your same have a hard position on that? Because I said, now you don't have a hard position. It's my opinion based on the my what's your justification? Why do you keep interrupted me when you asked me? But because I don't need a justification for my assessment. That's an opinion I don't need. It's a different type of question than what's the grounding for your ethics? I don't need my justification for an opinion. I guess, I guess I could use the same logic

that you just know for ethics. Okay, not your opinion again, what about our justic case where ethics can't be a mere opinion.

don't understand that. It's like the way an eight year old but Brian democracy ethic, it's just a jug. If ethics are relative, I don't understand then I just have a different ethic. But okay, so democracy is gang can that should be the title. So people on social media, some are saying you're a fascist. I didn't say that, but some people on social media are saying that, what would you What would be your response to that.

people would agree. Do you think it Okay? Probably killing, that's a fallacy because appeal to masses. Well, I'm not going to debate that, because you know you want to give using fallacy that's going to listen appeal if you try to call it what you want. All I'm saying is a lot of people have died innocent people and their faith and religion. So that's all I'm saying. You're saying what is First of all, it's a genetic fallacy, So because people have died because of their fallacy, Yes,

I do, But answer my question. Answer my question. I asked you first. You keep you keep asking to try to making bad arguments.

You said you have an opinion, and most people that have an opinion based that on actual and I gave you. You didn't give me any species.

that's the precedence for why it would happen here. We're not Iran, Okay, we actually because the way the deep state that you asked them about the beginning, the way they operate in other countries, is the same way that they object. Let's try that one. Let me try this

different way. If I'm a judge right now, and your case that you're making that you believe opinion that Joe Biden didn't win a free and fair, aaloh election, what evidence would you be able to present to me other than I know how the CIA works, which is not evidence, by the way, well it is of it. Okay, Then where is your You have to have something called residence. Okay, you have to have something presented to a judge called widespread.

But I didn't come here with a hard opinion. Again, on the twenty twenty election, So you can have an opinion based on no fact at all. I didn't say. Note again, you're lying about whether I had so tell me. Give me something that makes you believe that Joe Biden because I believe that there's a breakaway security establishment that is the quote deep state, and the same way that they re elections. And I don't care what it sounds like.

That's again a fallacy of association, which you said you're not going to do what Well, you sound like you're saying that I'm sorry that you can't do the nuance, But that's a fallacy. You're making a claim that the election opinion, okay, an opinion. Are there things that you have opinions on that you're not hard set on based

on some cherry or gut? Sure, So if I told you that, why are you trying to grill me on something that If I told you that I have an opinion that Donald Trump is a criminal, I would give you actual cases and evidence to prove that he is a criminal. My argument was actual cases of dozens of countries where the CIA rigs elections. But other countries are the United States. Yeah, I know, but I'm saying that

that's how it was here. Okay, So you not get that, So you believe the way the CIA has allegedly rigged other elections they do this. You don't know that you believe, you believe it probably was. How did they do that here? How did they rig it again the same way that they do it in other countries. There's a lot of different techniques. How did they rig it here? Help me understand again? It's my opinion that they rigged it probably

with Holli stuffing. They can bring the evidence of boutant stuffing, though, wouldn't you have cameras. I don't have a hard opinion on this, so I don't know why you're trying to debate me on Like if I had a hard opinion, I would say, I'll be honest with you. I'll tell you why. It's a theory. I'll tell you why. The reason why I'm grilling you on this, for lack of a better term, is because there is zero, let me repeat zero evidence of widespread voter fraud. Does this idea

that in that do they any hold on? Let me just produce thought and then you have the floor. Do they there is zero evidence of widespread arter the same a position. It's not a position, it's a fact. But birth is not that and Donald Trump did not win the associated Well, no, I'm just showing how ridiculous you're argument ridiculous. No, it's not because I'm saying because you know how they do they do in other countries. I'm sure it's happened in the past, but that has nothing

to do that is. That's the precedent for why I have the suspicion of twenty twenty So you know so by your standard, you don't believe any elections. Do you think any election is election? We're giving a a straw man. I didn't say every election is, but twenty twenty four wasn't. That's a strong man? Okay, yes, I do twenty twenty I argue that all elections are. Do you know what evidence is? I can your Yeah, do you know what evidence is?

but the two thousand suspicion. So the twenty and sixteen election where Donald Trump won, I admitted the he does this the country. So why are you growing I don't have the knowledge of that. So in two you said it probably did. Maybe I don't know. So that's why that's my question. I'm not making that claim. All I'm simply saying is in twenty and sixteen, you believe Trump won.

In twenty and twenty four, you believe Trump one. But it's very interesting that you retort back to the CIA as the reason why you think Joe Biden's suspicion right, Joe Biden didn't win because you have a suspicion. Mhm, Okay, I'll let the less on something that you said is possible. I'll let the list. I want to ask, so if if I say A is the same thing as not a, do you think that's a word game or is that the law of non contradiction? No, I think you're a hypocrite.

I think when you use these words and you have these opinions, No, I think you're a hypocrite. That's an out homonym. Okay, No, I wouldn't. I'm not name calling you. I wouldn't say that. But I think, okay, well, because you say certain things like, for example, okay, fine, you think, let's say, for the sake of argument, standard in every election, is a the same thing as non a? Is that a word game? Is the law? It depends? What we're talking is the law? I'm asking you about the law

of non contradiction. That's what we're talking about, is that it depends on the topic that we are referring. Is the law itself a word game? Like I said, I'll answer the law. Do you know that there in logic? You study laws? Right? What do you think those law word games? Do? I think laws are the laws of logic? Depends specifically what you are refering to. One called the law of non contradiction? Is that a word? What about it? No? I wouldn't say that. Okay, thank you, not necessarily so,

I'm not playing word games. But you are a hypocrite. You use a different standard for that. You do actually didn't argue that Donald Trump was had a different center. I actually specifically said that he should be held to the same standard. I don't think that she hasn't. Well, that doesn't mean that that's again, had nothing to do with it what I argued, No, I think I think it is a little bit to do it. But I do find it interesting. When Trump wins, everything must have

gone fine in the election. But if Trump loses, the CIA must have been involved. That's an Alex Jones conspiracy theory. That's not what I argue. That is a conspiracy theory. I know what's going on in the CIA, and I don't think Joe Biden. I know I had a suspicion. You have a suspicion past evidence and examples that you admitted. So if I said I have a suspicion possible if I said no, if I said that, you said the CIA, you said the CIA could elections and others. I don't know.

I don't have and he knows possible. What I do know is that said earlier as possible. What I do. Just because I say something is possible that I didn't say that you did, that's my suspicion. So you just have a suspicion with no evidence. You in a position. I just think it's it's it's okay. There's nothing wrong with being a hypocrite, because ethics a relative anyway. Yeah, you got to fend off with the files and the deep state or sure we could talk about that. Sure, absolutely, absolutely,

you want to go first this time? Go ahead, I'll be a gentleman. You let him go, I'll let him go first. What's the prompt? Are they are they real? Are they good? Or they like? Yeah? Well, would you want to?

there's still see we might agree on this one. There's still three million well, let me just start with this foundation. You agree with me that what happened to these kids is horrible, sure, and people should be held to account. Right, but to this day the only two people, I think there were a few more arrests right overseas, but Gislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein are really the only two people in this country that have been held to account. Correct.

What does Donald Trump do well? The first thing he does is, says his former personal attorney Todd Blanche to interview Maxwell. A couple of days later, she sent to a club med facility. Jeez, I wonder why she's still there, by the way. And when she was asked, as you know, I think it was like a month or two ago, she pled the fifth and she said she only answered the questions if Trump basically gives her a pardon. Trump had nothing to say about that, and he hasn't ruled

out a pardon for her. Donald Trump is mentioned in the files that we've already seen partially thousands of times. In fact, Donald Trump is mentioned more in the Epstein falls than Jesus Christ is mentioned in the Bible. He doesn't want us talking about it. Jay. He calls people like you and me stupid for even talking about the

Epstein fau even talking about it. I've been very consistent, whether you're a left or a righty, whether you're a Democrat or a Republican, I want everyone held to account. If you're in those files, release everything, redact the names of the victims. If Bill Clinton did some horrible things, fine, Hillary Clinton testified, Bill Clinton testified. Why isn't Howard Lutnick testified.

This is a guy. This is a guy, as you know a month ago, who said he was never on the Epstein island and then right of course, and then he led about it. Trump doesn't want him to testify. Why isn't Donald Trump testifying? If Hillary Clinton? You know what the Republicans did, They set a precedent. Now Milania should have to testify. She was closer to JESSELEYN. Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein than Hillary ever was. So do I know for sure, one hundred percent if Donald Trump committed

any crimes in there, No, I don't. I know there are accusations. But what I do know is that this is a huge cover up, huge cover up. I want people held to account. This is a huge cover up. And then I do believe a portion of the war and Iran a portion of it is a distraction.

agree with all that. I do think it was a huge, huge mistake to cover this up and to not allow not to push for this to be released when this was a campaign promise. So I'm having a hard time to figuring it out where we could disagree on this one. Totally agree, huge bleunder, as big as any of the other Trump blunders.

Let's talk about Coamala from moment. I don't really is there anything about her like you just said, I just can't vote for the because of what do you in what sense? Like what do you mean she's a goober? Just in that sense? I just I mean, I don't take political seriously anyway, So, but there's there something about her that said I can't, I can't vote for her, like what you wanted me to say, that she's a brown person. Jay, That's not why I That's not why

I messing. I'm asking the question policies you didn't like obviously again the positions as I said that Trump campaigned upon, uh, you know, no new wars reigning in Uh. It was more about his promises more than a I'm always an issue person, but I definitely think that even if Donald Trump went full Neocon, which I always had the suspicion that he could turn neok on, I felt like that it would still be a better bet than Kamala. But

I don't even think that that. What I'm getting from you is it was more of Trump's promises that you thought he would keep, which I don't.

criticized nationally for saying it felt like a clan rally. Now, that might be extreme language. I don't believe everybody that goes to a Trump rallies racist. I don't believe everybody that goes to a Trump rally as a clansman. But in a way, the way you talk sometimes in a joking fashion, right, ninety nine percent of the people were white. I went to a Kamala rally and it felt like America. It was very diverse. I saw Confederate flags at Trump rallies.

I saw a lot of hatred. Fuck Joe and the Hoe shirts.

They've called her a whore, she slept her way to the top. I haven't heard you say that. I'm not accusing you. I didn't even remember that. I remember people saying, yeah, yeah, I'm not accusing you of that. I want to be clear. But well, I'm trying to sleep my way at the top, so I could be hire for me to call out. That's funny. Actually, see you made me laugh. You're funny. But you know I hated that rhetoric. You know what I mean. Here's a woman who she became the attorney

general duly elected twice. Even if you disagree with their politics, that's fine. Yeah, this is a woman who became a senator and then a vice president. Uh wasn't wasn't my first, second or third? Let me be very clear, how about this? She's a woman? That's that would be an area where I don't want her in politics? Why tell me why? Seriously, you don't want women? Why tell me why? Oh, less women in politics, just like I would want less immigration. Well,

let's go. I don't think women are fitted for that. I don't think they're made for that. Why tell me what's why would you say women A woman can't be a politician. I don't think they're made for that. What they can do? What are their characteristics that would lead you to believe.

women are more emotional. Uh, when the man who is probably more emotional ten times more emotional, I would imagine than most women that are in office right now, who has nicknames for people he disagrees with, he puts on eight layers of orange makeup. When you have a.

suggest that they're physically different. I believe that if a woman is able to and by the way, there are some women that are that are able to pass the same physical standards that a man. Okay, so why would you have a problem with them because the exceptions don't make the norm?

to risk their license or the norm. I said, I know that you're not listening unless they the norm, But why can't the Norman will be one basic standard physical because that's not all that it is.

So you don't like you don't like voting? I don't think women?

I'm asking you. First. You're a married man, right, so you tell your wife. If your wife wants to have a career, she wants a job. Maybe she wants to do what you do. She wants to be a podcast or you would tell her, no, your your job is to be We do that together, so we have a dynamic. If she said, that's great, I'm happy to hear that.

But if your wife said to you, for example, you know, Jay, I've been thinking I really want to be a teacher or a doctor, you would tell her no, typically careerism, no, it is not good for one. So women shouldn't have the choice to.

the norm. It shouldn't be the norm. Right, So, for example, I.

have a career and be forced to stay home. I think that's a misogynistic opinion in my.

I actually am not an atheist. I'd like to believe that there's something out there, a higher power, but we don't know. You know, you don't know if there's hell or life after death. You don't know any more than I know. And guess what, we won't know until we're dead. But what I don't like about religion is people that push their beliefs on other people. And I believe that's what you're doing. But you push your beliefs right now. No, I want women to do whatever the hell they want

to do, but you're pushing that belief. Give me an example. Are you give me an example of me pushing a belief and forcing other people or treating it.

is important, Sean. I hate to bring you into this. Is it ridiculous for somebody to think? Do you disagree that what a man says that a woman should have replaced not having a career but should be at home? Is that a misogynistic you? Am I wrong? And I want to know what is I trust him. He is referencing a Bible verse, so I think he's approaching it from that point. But would you say that's massogynists? And a lot of people say that ethics are relative, So

another wrong with racism, more misogyny. You're telling an entire group of people what to do, what you think they should do, like you've done this whole debate where you said that every white man in America must accept your form of liberals. I never said that, and I'm not a liberal and I never said that. When did I say you're a liberal you're a classical I'm a classical liberal. Okay,

let's go with that. Uh. And we had this conversation before, and this is what happens when we have these conversations.

get is my beliefs and my opinions. I don't show up somewhere and say, boy, you know, I saw that Jay Dier guy, and he thinks all women should be in the kitchen. So I'm going to show up to that debate and I'm going to try to convince him that women should have their own careers. The audience. Okay, I'm never I'm never going to convince you because this is the way you believe the audience. Okay, well listen, anybody who's watching this, chances are if they're a fan

of yours, they're going to agree with you. If they're a fan of mine, they're going to agree with me. I'm not obsessed with audience. I'm not obsessed with changing people's minds because in most cases, I think a lot of people that are on the right, that are Trump supporters, it is impossible to convince them virtually about anything. Occasionally I get a caller who calls in and says, you know what, Brian, I made a mistake. I regret voting

for Trump. It could be the Iran War, the Epstein falls, whatever. But I'm not trying jay to convince anybody. That's why we are fundamentally different. Well, on debate, I am trying to do that, well, debate to convince people. Okay, well you haven't done that. Okay, Well again, when you make a statement that you believe all women, in your opinion, should be in the kitchen, most people would them Okay, most people would define that as extremely misogynistic. And let

me tell you something. I don't have a problem either, do I. But I can tell you that if a woman is capable and she's smart, then I have no problem with her being a politician. I think there are people in DC that are women that are very good at what they do. I have no problem with them. I think a lot of people like you didn't vote for Kamala because they're women, and I think that's wrong, and I think that's wrong, and I think it should be about your intelligence and your merit and what you've

done in your life. And Hillary Clinton, listen, I didn't even vote for Hillary Clinton in twenty sixteen, but I'll be the first one to admit she was overqualified for the position based on what she's done in her life. Donald Trump is a fucking reality TV show host. You voted for a reality TV show host guy with no experience on campaign policy. He was given a half a billion dollar company from his dad when he was like a teenager. This is a guy that was a TV

reality star. So if you want to talk about people that are not qualified, I would say maybe we shouldn't put reality TV stars as the leader of the free world more than what's between their legs. Which it sounds like you're a little bit obsessed with I'm sorry it does sound that way. You would never vote for a woman, It's clear, right, you would never vote for a woman ever,

right ever, because they're a woman. Mean, there could be some insinuating circumstances where there's a you know, lesser of two evils, okay, good, Like for example, if there was a woman running in a local election that I thought in my vote would have some effect on so you would be okay with the woman being.

being is different. Some are more emotional than others. In general, doesn't matter what's between your legs and my opinion. Some people are smarter than others, Some people are more capable of some people are stronger than There's plenty of women that would kick my ass. And I said that to Myron Gaines, who was assas. Those are all exceptions, bro Okay,

but you're making a generalization. You don't be any women should be politicians, but you're trying to make it they should be in the kitchen on the exceptions, and I'm doing the opposite. Okay, but they're Every single human being is different, and I don't speak for women, but some women choose They're still generalizations. But some women don't want to have kids, some women don't want to be moms. Some women put their career.

what religion? I think anybody positions. Okay, well, well let's talk about religion. I'm just saying, like, you don't believe that about yourself. What do you mean?

well that's fine, you can call me. I guess I guess Jay thinks I'm in the kitchen. Then I guess I'm not Jay. I got bad news for I'm not cooking you dinner tonight. But you're not gonna make a sund Everybody. Everybody is different, every human being is different, everybody has different skills. Because you're making a generalization about women how they should all be in the kitchen, and

I find that to be extremely misogynistic. Generalizations are not again on your wrong, it's on your basis women in your life, and I'm just making if you tell them I think you you all belong in the kitchen. What would they say to you if you said that? How is that relevant too? Because because I'm curious, this is an emotional appeal again, Okay, but but I want to know the people in your life, your mom or sister, whoever, when you say, hey, you guys shouldn't be mom. My

mom was an outlier. Actually she was a very qualified editor assigned journals. I think that's great. I think that's great. So why can't other people like your mom? Well, I'm sure in this society they can, but that doesn't mean that it's the best for society. So the question was what's the best for society, not can they actually physically

do it? So that's two different You think it's best for society to get all the brain surgeons and the teachers and the politicians and every woman, say oh, I said generalizations.

the other day. We're actually friends, believe it or not, and George told me he knew he was gay and he was like four or five years old, and it's not a choice. And I think a lot of people who are because I talk to these people and they tell me, and they're honestly, that's still that's not how you would know that. So Richard Simmons was born straight. I'm just saying that, I'm saying that what you answered with would not prove the way that you know. Do you think being gay is a choice?

my religion tells me. No, No, this is who you are. You decide to think that way. You decide to think that if somebody is different than you, I assume you're straight. If somebody is different, If somebody is different.

my religion? Because sexuality is different than religion? You see for example, why can't I be conditioned? You're an atheist, right, You're an agnostic? Right? I believe that there's a higher poety. Okay, but it goes back to what I said.

She's a great person. Of this is answering all question. She made a choice to get out of that lifestyle and that religion and go live her life. Okay, most people who are gay would tell you it's not just a snap of the finger. If you're born I believe gay and you want to turn straight. So those choices are conditioned and they're not actual free will choices. Do

You're not believe in biology? You're not even letting me finish it, because this is a killer for your argument and I never even noticed, as it's literally in this debate. So you can be conditioned to believe or to have

those proclivities. But even though I go through the exact same situation, I'm guilty for the choice that I made for the religion, which is identical to the conditioning according to you, No, well, I why is one of them free will and the other one on I'm going to be very clear again, here's where I think you're guilty of. And this goes for any religion in anybody. When you judge, somebody's wrong with judgment. I think it's wrong to judge. Well,

that's great, but you're are relevant. Okay, So when you judge an entire group of people because they are different than you because of what the way they look or their sexuality, that is what bigotry is. What's wrong with being a biggot? Oh, I think that makes you an asshole if you're thinking, well, but I mean, those are just your own prosper Well, you're right, biggots are great people. Argument. I'm just saying, No, you're right, biggots are wonderful people.

I shouldn't judge. Biggest why philosophy is good because if you learn philosophy, this is why religion is bad. Because he's trying to defend religion. Never made a religious argument. All I said was that when you judge, why is it so hard for you admit my judgments are my conditioning that I'm not morally accountable on your world view? Doesn't the Bible say not to judge if but if your worldview is correct? Does the Bible say your world view is correct? My choices are my conditioning, so I'm

not liable or accountable. Does the Bible say not to judge? It says judge with righteous judge Yeah exactly, So you think this is righteous taking all groups of people because I have a consistent basis to judge actions, not the people. I believe you. I believe God can judge people. I don't know what God, whatever, God, you would How would you know? Then? How would you know he judges people? Okay, well it's a saying okay, but I will tell you I don't even know if God exists. I don't know,

and you need to judges to you? How do you know this audio? I made a statement, as you would say, a joke. How do you know that nobody knows that God exists? How do you know that we don't know for sure? Nobody knows? Now it's a universal claim. How do you know that no one knows? Who's your evidence that God exists? How do you know that No, I didn't make a universal claim? You did. How do you know that no one knows? There is no direct evidence that there is a God. But how do you know

that no one? No one's presented it. So do you know what a universal claim is? Yes, nobody's presented it. What's a universal claim? Universal claim is what I just said, which is what nobody has direct evidence that God is?

So your worldview? You know for sure? And if I have the high okay, you can have the highest degree, it doesn't make it true. But we don't know if heaven or Hell exists. But you don't know. But you for you to make that you I think is insane. But you made the claim that you have universal knowledge that no one knows that and you can't know that either on your own position so you're going out on the bounds of what you can e do on your world.

There is no more evidence that God exists. Keep saying that, but sorry, you don't have the evidence. No, but I didn't make the claim that no one knows you did your entirely religion. Did you say no one knows your entire life is based in region? I think it's a fairy tale. Correctly, that's great, but you haven't given an argument for they have actually the fairy chill that you believe in, like free will I have? Actually you have? How do you have the freedom to believe in what

you want to believe in. I'm not denying, but if I go with Sam Harris or Daniel Dinnitt, maybe I'm just conditioned to think I have free will and all choices are determinists. Again, you have how do you know that free will exists? Okay, what do you mean you have? How do you know that exists? Right? Because you believe it metaphysical things that you can't justify you want me to justify. Listen, there's a there's the problem with saying

to a theist that you have to justify it. You believe in logic, universals, things that you can't justify, like free will. So, Jay, so you don't you're not going to answer that. I'm going to answer, do you believe in free will? I'm going to answer it the way I want to Okay, Okay, you have the freedom well in your estimation, in anybody's that's it works. Okay, Well, if you want to use fallacies, you can understand. I

understand how a debate. A debate works, j Just because you've been doing it for twenty five years doesn't mean you have to be condescened. What's free will? I understand that there's a lot of people on the left that are very nice to you when you debate them, and you're very condescending. That doesn't work with me, So you don't have to do that. I've been very respectful to you considering the circumstance. I'm just all and I'm asking you to let me answer in the way I want

to answer it respectfully. You have the free will, I'll use your terminology to believe in what you want to believe in. You have the free will to believe in your God, your religion. I usually don't get along very well with extremely religious people. I have almost nothing in common with some of these people. I think it's a mental illness. That's my opinion. Now, if you form and live your life based on your religion, you have the right to do that. But nobody knows if there's heaven

or hell. You don't know that. You don't know. You're making the case that there's a heaven or hell. I'm not making that case. What I'm saying, Jesus there might be Jay, I'm saying that there might be heaven or hell. I don't know. That's no no, no. You said no one knows. Those are tis. I don't know. That's the way I answer. You said, no one knows, and now you're saying I don't know. Those are two different Nobody knows, nobody knows. There might be heaven in Hell?

waiting for you to give a good argumenty. I just didn't, So I'm asking for right now, Jay, prove me wrong right now. You're a Christian. You believe that heaven and Hell exists. Give me direct evidence right now in your belief that heaven and Hell exists.

it's just a belief. I believe in the t's a logical My worldview tells me the tooth very exists, But you don't have a basis word my religion tell my religion tells my religion tells me that when I lose a tooth, I'm going to get a hundred. If you if you took a philosophy class, you would learn that free will is a metaphysical position that a lot of philosophers an atheists. I'm not saying an atheists, but people like Daniel Dinnet or Sam Harris, they don't believe in

free will. So I'm just trying to say that you're asserting things like free will that you don't have a basis for us. So hold on, be thirty seconds here. You are making the case, in your opinion, based on your lie, I did not opinion hold on worldview that heaven and Hell exists. My opinion is I don't know. But that's not what you said. Ok You said no one knows, which is not an opinion that's a universal No,

I knows for sure whether that's a universal client. Okay, So tell me where you're getting this from your worldview. Give me some evidence that heaven and Hell exists. The evidence is the logical argument called the transcendental argument, which there's not all. So evidence is not just like a physical object. There are logical arguments that are non physical but are also evidences. That's what you're missing in what I'm arguing. So uh again again, I go back to

what I said earlier. And this is my issue with religion in general. Every religion. You're a religious person, you're religious. I never said I was a religious person. No, you're rapidly religious about things like free will. What you have no basis for. I'm not a religious person and I don't believe in the tooth fairy, and I live my life based on a religion. Free will is like free will is this is the same thing as the tooth theory,

the to and the free will are the same. I live my life based on the way I was raised, the way my parents raised me, but none of that, And I don't religion. I don't hide. I don't hide behind a religion attacking all gay people, which I believe that are attacking. Yeah, you're right, it's emotional, just judging entire groups of people, which it says don't to do in the Bible. You're judging all women are more emotional, or gay people are sinners. No, these are judgments on

large groups of people. Your argument right now is an emotional appeal, not the statements you are making judgments. Don't like it. No, I just think you hide behind your religion to defend your biginning. It's not I think. I think people like fact that you think that I'm doing something for bad motives. Yes, I do motive argument which is not relevant to why when you judge an entire group of people, it's called bigotry and you don't like so what in your view? There you go in? Your

words are all subjective. If it's in your view, it's subject in your view. It's okay to be a bigot in your view, it's okay to judge inconsistent in my view. No, you're right, you're you're consistently a bigot. That's what you are. Inconsistent in my view. For the used word games, your position is inconsistent because you have very consistent You're very consistent. I'll explain once again, No, I'm I'm extremely consistent. I don't judge people based on sexual orientation. I don't hold on.

I don't judge people based on color of skin, sexual orientation, or gender. I would never tell somebody that doesn't logic. I would never tell somebody that doesn't look like me that you belong in the kitchen. It's a big for your position is what's inconsistent, Not the having a moral compass and caring about all people. Yeah, not telling other people what to do with their lives. Because you're a bigot.

You tell other people, You make assumptions about people because they're not like you and they don't look like I know that you don't like. I understand that it's not probably most people don't. Most don't like. It's a fallacy. All women belong in the kitchen, All gay people are sinners, they're all bad. Because it's my world view, I hide behind my Christianity. I know that heaven and Hell are I've given a very simple basis you judged on. I

don't care whether you think it's full. You're judging me. You you're judging. You're judging me right now. I'm judging you right now. You have the right thing you judge, you think you judge. That is wrong to be when you judge a group of people based on their sex orient No, I don't, because not all Christians think like you. Okay, but what's wrong with being a biggot and judge people to be a bigot when you don't have a basis for your understand that therapy, You don't have a basis ethic.

It's subjective. That's the kills There is no kill shot here. That's your ethics is admittedly subjective and relativists, and then you make it universal. That's a contradiction. You are just you did. You said, no one knows I'm painting all Christians as this. I never said that. There are plenty of that universally wrong to be racist and a bigot? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, but your ethics is subjective and relative. That's a contradiction. I don't think it's subjective at all.

You already argue for the first hour its subjective. I think I think it comes you argued that, well, you'll disagree with this, but I think it comes down yourself. I think no one, not you said you're making yourself. I think you did. You not say your ethics was in this, in this, in this, in this conversation, multiple times, your ethics is not everybody thinks murder is bad, not everybody thinks rape is bad. That's subjective to okay, thank you.

So it's objective. So if somebody says that it's not universally if you said that it's not universally wrong to be racist, big If you said to me, no, there are people out there that think racism is okay, I don't deny that. Okay, but universal doesn't mean are there people who do otherwise? I said, this is I means stupid. This is how stupid this argument is. If I said to you right now now, I think it's stupid. If I said to you right we don't, I think it's

very stupid. If I said to you that racism have a basis. If I said to you that rape rape is bad, you have a basis. For why it's bad. You don't. I don't have a basis to why, big, consistent basis. No, have you seen slavery? You know what that was? That bad? When people judged others based on their skin color and owned humans. It's not relevant to the ethics of well. First of all, I'm just giving

you a general term. You just saying things are bad because these things happened, and that doesn't get you to an ought. That's why philosophy matters. You need a better argument or a basis for why something. So, you need a better argument. But yet you're the guy who says Trump won the twenty twenty election. You need a better argument. Jay says, but yet all would be in the kitchen suspicion. For me, it's just a suspicion. I just have a suspicion.

If you want to argue that your ethics is based on suspicions, I'll use your stupid I'll use your stupid defense and arguments, and I'll turn it right back on you. But I don't have to have the same justification for every position you're justifying. The religion you're justifying. All women is a philosophy domain. Politics is something I don't really care. Again, you're taking entire groups of people and all women and this, well, yeah, I think it makes you there's nothing universe. I think

it's very wrong. That's great that you think that very universally wrong. And also, by the way, I'm just conditioned by determinism to believe it. So what's wrong with that? I think you hide behind your religion to hide you. I'm actually giving you atheist lines of argumentation, though you're not an a saying that all women belong in the kitchen. I'm talking about determinism and the idea that there's free will. You believe in a metaphysical fiction that you can't justify

if your agnostic world is true, called free will? So other and using your word games, would you agree that Danield, Denna and Sam Harris believe that there's no free will? I haven't talked to them, but they do believe. I don't know that. I haven't talked to them. Many philologists, many philosophers, do not believe in free will. They think it's a metaphysical fiction. Fine, So it's like the too many bigots don't think that when in the kitchen to theory. So I want to know why should I believe in

free will but not God? In your view? You can believe whatever you want in your view. In my view, when you judge an entire I've said this like ten times. I was that an answer to the question I just asked. You're not even listening to the question. I'm listening to you, and I'm amazed free will is equated to the tooth theory and most modern philosophy. Then I want to know why is it free will any different than believing in God? It's a metaphysical claim. You can I'm not. I'm not

making that argument. You can believe what you want to believe. You argue that free will makes me liable to belie and choosing religion versus gaze and not have a choice. Jay, you made the argue. Here's my argument. You're not your religion. Your argument as I am when you take your religion and you treat people differently in you're not listening to me. Why do you believe we can keep talking about free will? You could listen to my questions for my religious dame. Jay,

just let me get this out. When you when you use your religion and treat people in a negative fashion because of it, Okay, it's bad for society. Now, in this debate, you've talked about what you think is bad for society. Believe in two three things. I was making a joke about that. Now ridiculous are saying that it's Totti monster. I don't understand what you're saying, Jay, But in my society that I would, Jay, you can believe whatever you want. Know why should I believe in your

worldview and free will? I think if you're a decent human being, you probably should treat people with respect and dignity, regardless of whether there's whether the ocation for free will. Okay, I'm just telling you right now, I want, I want. Well, I'm going to give you my justice. Okay, but that's fine, that's not going to give you subjective in your opinion, it's not a good argument. But a lot I think in logic, if you make a subjective argument, it's not

a good argument. In your opinion, it's not a good art. Okay, okay, But in your opinion that everything's opinion? Excuse me? Is it your opinion that everything is an opinion? I don't think everything is opinion. There's fact and there's fiction that goes along with it. Like Trump didn't win the twenty twenty election. That's a fact. That's not an opinion, Jay, that's a fact. Trump did not win in twenty twenty. So I think you're the one who can't spell the

word fact. With that being said, when you take an entire yeah, yeah, I know you're shaking your head. It makes sense. No, it actually makes a lot of sense. The Earth is not flat, Jay, And Donald Trump did not win the two thousand No, you were. You were arguing that Trump Trump, but you think Trump won the two thousand election. So if you're going to talk to me about fact and total whatsoever, it's actually completely wrong. I never argued anything about the physics of the Earth.

I asked you about free will, and you've had no answer. Yeah. That is again you're you're missing the entire you believe in fairy tale things. I'm just trying to figure out why I believe. Why what do I believe that's very free will? Tell me what you think free will is, Jay, I.

fairy tale. Well, what I'm saying is when you make cases and you talk about homosuality and you know, listen to me, when those are mutually exclusive claims, when you make generalizations about people were digated positions, Well, I think there's something wrong with Well that's great, but you haven't given a moral basis for White's University. Wrong. Are we not all created as equals? Or is that not? No, we're not all created. I mean, am I equal to

Kobe Bryant when it comes to physical ability? That that's athletic ability. That would have to do with creation of my reld view. So okay, Well, I thought we were all created as equals, but maybe law but not in physical cysical abilities. Again, going back to what we said earlier. Let's wrap this up somewhere going to the final points. Final points matter. It's just it's just going on. We are going. We are going a little bit in sort of. I would agree with closing off. Sure, I'm glad we

agree on the Epstein funnels. I think that's extremely important. Obviously, I would never vote for the orange turret. I disagree with you on you haven't give me really any reasons why other than you thought Donald Trump what he did, what he what he said he was going to do here, here, and here, and obviously he didn't do a lot of

those things, which clearly are frustrated on. You didn't really give me many reasons other than Kamala Harris as a woman, and clearly you don't want to vote for general Yeah, I mean, you know, you know, you didn't really give me any reasons for that. The reason why I'm not an extremely religious person is because of this conversation today.

I believe, especially in Christianity, people make judgments on other people based on their religion because people don't look like them, or they don't have the sexuality that they have, or they're a woman. I also don't like the fact that women and men are separated in synagogue. I don't like that either. I don't like it in any religion. That's why I'm not an extremely religious person. It comes down to me wanting to just treat people the same and

with respect, regardless of what religion they are. I don't like to judge people, even if you're wearing a maga hat. Okay, I'm not going to immediately assume that you're a racist or atrocious human being. And I think it's important in society. If you want to talk about society falling, I'm less concerned about immigrants in this country documented and not more concerned about people that judge other people, or people that

are so upset. And I would assume you were one of them that was so upset at what Don Lemon did going into that church and disrupting a church service. Well. I don't condone people protesting on private property. I think that's wrong, it's against the law. But I find ice agents murdering people in the streets a little bit more upsetting. We need to have the separation between church and state, which clearly we don't have in Washington, DC right now.

And I think the people that want the ten commandments in classrooms are people that don't abide by the ten commandments themselves. They break those commandments themselves, Hence the word hypocrite. I did not come here to change your mind or try to convince you on anything. I understand that's your objective when you go to debates. I came here to give you my opinions, my views on a number of different issues. Some we agree on, obviously a lot we

disagree on. I think we've stopped listening to other people. This is why I do enjoy doing these kinds of things. But I think as a whole, we stop listening to other people. People that look differently than you and me, people that have different pathways in life, people that have been brought up differently in different cultures, different backgrounds. I'd like to think, as a whole, most human beings are

good people. And then when we have issues and bad things that happen like nine to eleven and other issues, that the country comes together, even if it's only a week. But this is what I do, and this is what I preach, and I'm not trying to change people's opinions. People can have their own opinions and judgments about this debate. If you're a fan of Jay Dyer, they're going to agree with you. If they're a fan of my show, they're going to That's what. I don't really care about

that stuff. Other people do. It's just not me. I'm glad, like I said in closing Land my Plan, Sorry, I'm glad we agree on the Epstein files. I'm glad we agree on some of the Trump stuff. That's refreshing. Obviously we disagree a little bit on religion. But here's the difference. Like, I would never tell you what to do. I would never tell you what to believe. I would never tell you that you can't think of something, even though I might hate the way you think, even though I might

hate your opinions on certain things. I would never say, Jay, you are not allowed to think like that, even though I hate the fact that you think women should be in the kitchen. I would say, you know what, we have something called freedom of speech in this country. And if women you're you're clearly a married man, Clearly it's working out well for you. I would assume, which which is great. But you know, I would never tell you that you can't think that way. I think that's fundamentally

very important. So anyway, thanks Jay for doing this discussion. There wasn't too torturous for you, and I don't think you're a bad guy. It was a civil, lively discussion. I enjoyed it. Go ahead, shut up.

we have to play by the rules. I think that Brian didn't play with the rules for the most of the debate when it came to the issues of justifying the morals, or when it came to the issues of say, free will being a metaphysical claim, which again to me is no different than the type of claim that God's existence is. So that's when it gets into the domain of philosophy. So again, I'm not used to political debates. This is probably, I think, my first political politics debate.

So I'm again glad for Brian Viers always, I think. So I can't think of another one. I've done a lot of you know, he's.