FREMASONS vs JAY DYER DEBATE REVIEW Pt 1

The the the the the the.

The the.

The the.

The what's up all you hate us? What's up all you players? What's up all of you?

Presently in the progress of de transitioning and transitionings, we're happy to have beautiful Tristana with us of the Tristan Haggard channel. Tristan, how you doing? Dog over there doing that moodra he's straight mood raw.

Yo sub Jay, well, sub j sub player, just come in when it When a black queen dms me and says it's time Jay summoned me, he does a J Jay sends up.

There's like a you know, the Batman spotlight. He just shines his Batman spotlight up in the hills where my mud hut is, and it's got it's got a black hand with some with some nails, with the you know, the black hand with the fingernails. There's a black queen hand emoji that lights up the sky and that means it's time and a howl.

Oh yeah, the.

Oh my gosh, I can't I can't take it already, this man getting to me about to start crying already, guys, I'm going to get a little talked over here. Making me a book clump. Uh, guys. You know, our favorite friend Tristana is all about that Internet game, and he's back and we're going to be talking about the history of the Info War. He's got clips, He's got tons of reels. You guys know, Tristan is the man that

Oh man, Yeah, that's a that's that's like a big door opener question, right, I mean, that's that's that's It's a hard one to answer in a sound clip, but yeah, I'll try to I'll try to keep it brief. I'll try not to ramble here like a like a black queen.

You can ramble like a queen. That's what it's Channel four son, all right, all right.

So, I mean generally, I think politics is a waste of time. I think, you know, local stuff can be uh you know, I mean who your sheriff is and the US who your sheriff is probably matters a lot more to you than the results you're going to see under various different presidential regimes. Now, I think I think a lot of us have just been so sick of this fake left right stuff.

For so long.

Just so many of the so many.

Of the issues.

That get thrown around, at least in kind of mainstream discourse are almost just like red herring issues. You know, they get people arguing over nonsense. But there's you know, clearly there's things that are important, you know, like I mean the normalization of you know, ending children and they're in the womb. You know, the issues that have become at the forefront of at least culture war dialogue.

If those are framed, and I.

Think this is all maybe part of the social engineering of the whole culture war thing, those are highly charged.

Every now and then we will experience frozen Tristana. Don't don't worry. I'm sure his Highness will be back. Everybody relaxed. Are you there? You froze for me? Beautiful tst On, please come back again. We miss you so much. Beautifuflist On? Where are you on the stream? Now? There's like three Tristano's here, Beautiful trist onun please come back? All right, you're back now, go ahead. Then he froze again. This

They do not want to get his information.

That's what's going on, folks. Unbelievable. This is unbelievable. He's just frozen. Man, He's like, you know, this is metaphorical. Kristan is frozen in another decade, right, This guy is straight out of the early two thousands. He's so early two thousands, So call that, you know. I'm not surprised that we're having these issues. We had no issues with John Karaoke.

I think we did a whole two hour interview with amazingly no freezing on collabkin. I might have to create a zoom link and just put him up here with zoom. I think we will do that because I could do that, but then we won't be able to play the clips, or could I add a second when capture source, we'll do that. If Tristan can't get in here, I'll send him a zoom link and then maybe we will. Let me just go ahead and try that. Let me try

Yahkah uh okay, starting zoom and then let me send this to him.

It's weird because with collab cam it's like a toss up. It's like half the time it works, half time it doesn't work. You never know exactly weather's gonna work or not. So here we go. He said that his stream labs on his side just crashing. Okay, well there's the uh the zoom link, Tristan. If you want to hop in there and then let me pull you up on zoom. I hope you're all are enjoying this boring tech replacement here. All right, let's bring him in here, all right? Can

Now?

Yeah?

Jay, Sorry, I just had to mute. I had to meet you on YouTube.

I was just listening to you on YouTube.

Okay, when when I play the clip, you'll have to mute and listen to it on YouTube.

Sure. Oh that's gonna be.

Like a big delay too. Oh is it crap?

Are you able to I think you're probably able to do the same way that you were able to send the video to stream labs.

Can't you send it to zoom mm?

I mean maybe if you made it in I don't know.

If you just started another collab cam. You got another collabcam link, maybe we could do with that. It was working for a while and then it just tripped out and said that the stream didn't exist.

I don't understand.

Maybe it's because if you if you weren't streaming from that, it times out or something.

I mean, I'll send you one here, you can try that.

It said stream not found.

No, I'm just sending a new link here. Okay. Oh, I know what happened. I know what it was, the original It might be because the original stream, for some reason, it automatically starts streaming when I turn on restream and I shut down that original stream that auto streamed, and that might have been why I ended that.

Yeah, that's what it seemed like.

It just cut off, and then every time I tried to join it started freaking out, and then it told me it doesn't exist.

That collab candle there?

Cool? All right?

Let me hang up on zoom here, all right?

How about now? Good? All right, so let's get back to it. You were saying, you politics as far as useful at local level, and then I want to ask you about Alex.

Yeah, for sure, useful at a local level.

And you know, every I think a lot of us are kind of sick of the cycle of even they even do this with midterms, right every election, Hey, this is the most important election of our lives. This is the most important election of our lives. The opposing party is going to put you in gulags there. You know, it's all over. If the opposing party gets in, your entire life is over.

It's just literal.

Hell is going to break loose from the you know, from the Marianna's trench and just burst out of the ocean and swallow us whole. Every election is kind of marketed with that diarness.

It gets old.

And once you've gone through a few cycles of this, and I mean back in what like two thousand and nine with the whole Ron Paul thing, seeing what the Republican Party did to you know, a candidate, it really didn't fit the hold of you know, the neo cons and what they were trying to do in their project at the time, Seeing how they essentially sidelined him. I think a lot of the people who are like diehard demps, you know, a lot of leftist the same disheartening.

Tristan, you might have to just call in on X. I think that's the only way to do it, because I think that I don't really honestly don't think it's the problem of collab can because I did it for two hours fine with kuraokity. So Tristan, you want to call in on X and then we'll just do it that way. You might have to watch the eclipse on on YouTube. John, did you want say anthing while you're here?

I think you and I probably started listening to IM for Wars in a similar time period. You probably, I think you started listening.

Before I did.

When did you first hear Alex? Do you remember like end.

Of two thousand and four or five, so like like right after the Carrie Bush.

Election. I think the car the Carry Bush.

Election kind of snapped me out of my paleoconservative mindset.

Yeah. That was when they were talking at the time about skull and bones. Remember Meet the Press and they had that guy was oh really that you saw that?

Yeah? I actually saw Jones on se SPAN.

There's a clip of him on se span where he's he goes up to the guy.

And he.

He says something like the guy says, oh, we want to have some other.

Voice is included in here, and he goes up to.

Jones and Jones says, look, both candidates are sculling bones their cousins and I'd never even heard something like that before.

That was early on too. That would probably be what two thousand and four or five, somewhere in there.

Yeah, yeah, that was those around.

It would have been around November or probably after November that I saw. I saw after the election, So it would have been after November two thousand and four election happened and somebody sent me that clip after somebody emailed me the clip. Remember when we used to have to email clips.

Yeah, I do remember that. Remember one. Boomers would send email chains and they believe in some sort of curse, like if you don't re send this email, you'll you'll be cursed.

It was like you, yeah, something bad's going to happen.

It's like the chain letter. What's that movie with Naomi Watts where it's like a curse VHS tape but it's Boomers with emails The ring ring Ring Goo. That's it. Remember Ring Goo.

Yeah, you used to have to listen to impro Wars on on the win amp.

Oh. Yeah, it was like an m P three player. I remember that.

Yeah, And he'd have.

A he'd have the the show streaming on the win amp. And I remember I would go in and I'd go into work every day and just listen to uh like live stream on the win amp and I would just stream the radio show all day long.

Trustan, where are you at? Come on in here. You'll have to come out on X Tristan where you're at? All right, I'll play a little bit of this and we'll react to while we're waiting for him to come in here. How fake it all is?

The football, the basketball, the Lady Ga guy, the Justin Bieber, you know who gives you these carbon tax messages.

They tell your kids they.

Got to love Justin Biebler, and then Biebler says, hand in your guns, passed the Cybersecurity Act, and you know the police states good. And then your children are turning to mindless vassals who now they look up to some twit instead of looking up to Thomas Jefferson or or looking up to Nicola Tesla, or looking up to Magellan I mean, kids, Magellan's a lot cooler than Justin Bieber. He circumnavigated with one ship the entire planet.

He was killed by wild.

Natos before they got back to Portugal, and when they got back there was only like eleven people alive of the two hundred and something crew, and the entire ship was rotting down to the water line. That's Destiny, that's Will, that's striving, that's being a.

Tr Destiny's child son. I want to see Alex Jones underwear clip. That's one of the best.

Now, I always had a lot of issues with Jones over the years, but I will say this back when you heard somebody talking like that in two thousand and four and five, that was kind of a snap out of a wake up call for like guys our age because we were we were so innundated with the you know, with the Albundis and the you know, loser TV person personality.

Dad.

Yeah, I mean there's a little bit of like Carnival Barker and Baptist Preacher and Alex Jones two. So it's an interesting mix. It's and it's a good mix for I guess mobilizing people, mobilizing audiences and w w A. Yeah, like you mean like the ship talking scenes that the that the w w F we do the interviews guys who would like and share. We're going to try to bring Tristana on here onto the X space that FEMA

Yeah, Tristan, you want to? I mute?

How about now?

I mean, it's like this different thing. I'm just I'm just one of the.

When were you not six south of Mexico that bus.

He doesn't want to talk to me on the same level. He wants to be above me.

And that's why I found it. I found it relaxless. I found the underwear clip relaxed. This is what we were all waiting for.

You're not supposed to share that, dude.

Don't freaking share ideas? Man, what are you doing?

No alex Is underwear clip?

Oh I was. I was just making like a joke though, right there.

Yeah, Tristan. Tristan sends me pictures of just underwear, just just like hundreds of day just pictures of random pieces, not not anybody wearing them, just pieces of underwear. It's really weird, like cut up, just like a serial killer. I don't know where it does, but check this out.

Pairs six x or the illegal aliens from south of Mexico that busts up on a train every day.

You could wear this. I could wear this as a onesie.

Okay, I could wear this as a leotard.

I mean, I mean, oh.

My god, oh my god, we're being invaded by South American wall Assist.

The government. You're shipping here to forty two thousand.

People, begg of the job of the.

This country is so screwed up.

Man.

I'm sorry, I don't mean allow, but it's reaching up proportion.

Have you're ready on listen you can't see.

Him go.

Oh I've ever lapped this heart on air? Oh my god.

Over there.

That was when he found out that FEMA has spit my copy of FEMA had ordered uh six x L underwear for some of the illegal immigrants that were coming up here, and he just lost it because he grabbed a pair. He grabbed a pair of.

That's the average size underwear of the average Peruvian woman.

That's what I was gonna say, they're coming from down there where you are. Are those large bodied ladies down.

There's the ladies them coastal fas, some coastal females where they will fit corn fit corn fits South America towards us.

Are there seriously like large ladies down there like that?

Do you think it's?

Uh, there's something about like the kind of indigenous geens that yeah, they get big. I mean you even look at their old it's not even just a modern diet. They because you look at their statues to have these old weird like these moltija statues and stuff of guess, like these weird pamasutras like sexual statues, and they're.

All like fat ladies. Dude.

They love they love them.

They like some shapes. They like a lot of shapes going on down there. Guys, remember support the stream. Tristan is with me today if you guys want to support. Tristan's YouTube channel is linked in the show description. So guys, remember it's in the show. You can't for whatever reason. Oh crap, well that's right. I won't be showing that on screen. So you could try to join the collab cam, but it ain't gonna work, so because I'm will generate

I remember that.

We always freaked out that one time.

I know I did it again and.

Waiting for somebody to do something to really gross or something, but it was yeah, they're all really polite.

And then we realized that you put.

In the chat.

Yeah a lot changed the link. So I ain't gonna work now.

So are you trying to get me on collab cam again?

No?

No, no, why wasn't it working?

It has to be your internet because it worked fine with John Kiriaku for two hours. So it's you, dude, I blame you.

My internet is solid, man, I could check my action anyways.

Maybe stream Labs likes John Kiyaku and not you. Did you ever think of that? Uh? So people asked me about uh hold on, oh Alex again. So Tristan, what was your first exposure to Alex Jones? When did you first see him? What did you think when you saw the first thing you saw? And this was you were what? So you were so? Huh?

Remember Waking Life? It was like a two thousand and one that film came.

Out oh you saw that. You saw him in that?

Yeah, he was in Waking Life, the link Later movie.

It's not like a great movie or anything, but we liked it in high school. It was a fun kind of, you know, owner movie in high school. And two thousand and three was when I.

Saw that, two thousand and three or four, So one of my friends really liked that movie. So I watched Waking Life. And you remember his part in Waking he's driving around in.

A Yeah he's doing he's doing his classic bullhorn stuff.

Yeah.

Yeah, he's basically just screaming Twitter posts out of the bullhorn on the streets of Austin.

And it's this really funny clip and he's, you know.

He's like a fake left right divide and he's just getting all heated and he seems he feels he has this pentecostal.

Street preacher, pissed off kind of political vibe to the character there. And that was the first I'd ever seen him. I didn't put the.

Pieces together until around like two thousand and he was two thousand and six or two thousand and seven.

He's dropped around in a Ghostbusters. It looks like the ecdo one here it is, right here.

Then any propaganda rolling across the picket line lay down. GI later, GI. We saw it all through the twentieth century, and now in the twenty first century, it's time to stand up and realize that we should not allow ourselves to be crammed into this rat may.

Yeah, I won't play the whole clip because it'll ding the algorithm. But yeah, there's Alex and link Lad's Waking Life and he was also in uh Skander darklic He basically did the exact same thing where he did like a two minute sort of bullhorn thing and then he gets taken away by the dystopian police. Do you remember that it was.

Secret police kind of stanchial love me throwing a vand.

Yeah, so that that was the first time I'd ever seen him.

But then, you know, I didn't know who it was.

I didn't, you know, look at the credits to try to figure out what this guy was. I knew that a lot of the people that were in Waking Life. It's kind of it's a lot of vignettes Waking Life, and some of them are slam poets and so over it just all right, there's there's a bunch of characters that.

Are there's like philosophy professors talking about want them physics, and then there's a guy who talks about Philip K. Dick and his gnostic views.

Yeah, and that's actually link later himself. That doesn't that's at the end where he talks about and Philip.

Dick says that we're still in I don't know.

He says it like the year is still seventy eighty years.

Yeah, he's got a weird preteris.

It's a weird theory that Dick had at a point in his career.

So I really liked that movie in high school. I don't like it anymore.

It's it's an interesting film in some ways, but the rotoscope was new, so it really crude kind of rotoscope animation in there.

But yeah, I later heard of him.

Actually, my grandma first told me about Alex Jones around two thousand and six or seven, because my grandma she was really uh, she passed away a few years ago at sixteen.

She passed away, but she was great.

We would always talk about conspiracy stuff, and she'd given me something like Michael Collin Piper's.

Books back in the.

Early two thousands, and she read like David Ike.

Booked and stuff, and she was.

Should always tell y'all know, I remember the day they killed Kennedy and how the whole world change they killed Kennedy.

So she was as the kind of she wasn't a boomer.

She was was your grandmother of Southern bell She like my grandmother.

She was cool. Yeah, she was great. She wasn't told like Texas. You know.

Oh, okay, well that makes sense.

Why Sheiana Texas, Louisiana's family from Louisiana and Texas.

She had that drawl and she would just say, oh, you.

Know what they're doing now, they're just making it head on earth.

Yeah, and it's just another day in heale.

Well, that makes sense why she would know about Alex because this was this was at the time when there was like a vibrant Austin, Texas, like independent art house film scene, and that's where link Later was, and so Alex was doing a lot of cable access, you know, homemade documentary type stuff back then. So that's assume I presume that's how he kind of fell into that sort of cool one hundred.

Yeah, she thought that she heard him on the radio.

Shoes I used to listen to Coast to Coast a lot back in the day too, and she she knew I really liked Coast to Coast and we would always talk about all those things.

We had long phone conversations, and she was funny, she actually she was.

She told me that Alex was a She's like, I think that Alex Jones, he's a Ax Jones, He's a Judas goat. I'm really sure he is. He's a Judas goat because she got she got that term from the Michael Collins Piper book The Judas Goats about like fake right wing movements and kind of the the twisting of the Patriot movement. And I guess he kind of he didn't like Jones at that point when he wrote that book, and he threw him in there. So she The first thing I think I heard from her about Alex Jones

I think she would shoot buy a lot of books. I know she read the book.

That was my first, my first exposure to him. And then once the Obama administrator and popped in outs really got popular on YouTube. So that was a kind of mass exposure through the Obama deception era that was really big.

Time for.

Yeah. I remember first seeing Alex. As I told people the other day, I was I was actually novus Orto watch of all websites, and back when they had because I was getting into trad say to stuff, and they had a page that would cover news, and they put up a clip of Alex on cable access talking about scull and Bones and how OSS and CIA would recruit out of skull and bones. And I never heard of

Why can't we stop it? The bigger this war gets, the more freedoms we lose the more substance D is on our streets.

Can't you figure this out anyway? I can't play much of that or else it won't work. It won't work. But uh, for some reason, Alex like was walking around and found Gary Busey one day. Any interview, it's the craziest interview. Yeah, here it is right here.

First back of the day.

He dude as high as hell, bro or.

Split my skull and put a hold of it, that big my skull.

And I had measured.

Brain surgery Cedar Sinai one fifteen pm Sunday afternoon, December fourth, by doctor Lauren Hooding, and he told me, if I've been three minutes later with me here now. So it's all in the quickness.

To get the victim to the hospital.

I came out of the hospital in recovery from a traumatic braining.

They have the emails and the witnesses buying masses of prescription drugs painkillers. But then we go back to his broadcast. He said, anybody that was caught with any illegal drugs.

I remember the Charlie Sheen phase too, right, So there was that whole massive several years of Alex teamed up with Charlie Sheen. You remember that.

That was Yeah, I think that was kind of his peek at least that's what I remember peak kind of it for his mania, right when Charlie Sheen was in the middle of a crazy manic episode and he was he was talking about Tiger Blood and he was talking about I'm a Jesuit assassin stuff. You remember, you remember, like the Jesuit black assassins, like the anti Alex guy.

Yeah, that was all that was all from. Yeah, that was There was two There was a group of Seven Day Avenues that were pushing that, and there was a guy that had a website that was all about how because Alex Jones one time talked out a Catholic college. They said, oh see look he's a Jesuit operative in, a Jesuit assassin.

So I did the website was Jesuit it was, it was.

It was Vatican assassins. Vatican assassins.

He called them a Jesuit coadjutor.

That was the term.

Everyone's a Jesuit coadjutor.

I didn't even know where, didn't even get that word.

It was such a great word of coadjutor, like a mathematical term you're.

Going to carry the carry, carry the carry, the integra integer to the to the look. And this was back. So I didn't realize this was This was two thousand and six, so this wasn't that long after. Greg was one of them. Yeah, that's who it is. And there was that he had a website and there was a book that came out by the Seven Day Adventists that he drew from, arguing that the Vatican runs the world

And I was always amazed to see that you always had hard data to back up your claims. And so, you know, this was tough for me because for the longest time I've been enjoying my own independent research and.

You know, oh, this is about big nine event. I remember now, Charlie wanted to fund Alex's nine to eleven documentaries in theater. He wanted a theatrical release, or he wanted to do a whole new, high production value version of Exposing nine to eleven. And that's what that was about. I remember that now, yeah.

Because one of those interviews is in Terror Storm.

Yes, correct, And so they were all the way this was three years later. They're still doing they were still doing stuff to this interview with Charlie questions.

These are the facts, these are the issues that found their way into my letter because.

So follow the Republic. Okay, that was an Alex documentary from two thousand and nine, and that included a bunch of the Charlie Sheen interviews. But people also forget that way back then Alex also because I was listening at the time, he also interviewed David Lynch and that was also questioning nine to eleven. If people remember that.

Oh yeah, yeah, I remember the Lynch the Lynch interview.

I mean you remember what was the eugenics film that he made?

Game Endgame.

Endgame was pretty influential.

Oh yeah, I was gonna say, I'm the dude from Readers of the Lost ARCYA Harrison Ford.

He was a big Wait who did he have on from John Ryse Davies. Oh, I forgot about that. He also had Hugo Weaving on Do you remember that?

Yeah? And Ernest Ordine ed Asner yep. But a bunch of the old timers.

Yeah, I re the I remember one of the first times I went on Twenty first Century Wire was right after ed Asner and Patrick had him on, because I think there was a there was a early on in the two thousands there was quite a few Hollywood people that were into nine eleven truth. Uh, And that's, of course, you know, that's part of the reason why I was always connected to the Democratic Party. Was like, oh, if you're into nine eleven truth, it's because you're a Democrat

Just it and it's getting obviously rave reviews. I've got several here in New York Times, Austin American statesmen in front of me. I mean, for those that I mean to give them some handle. What's the basics with Inland Empire?

Well, you know, Alex, bless your heart, man, it's the story of a woman in trouble and and and that's it. You know, I always think I don't like to know too much about a film going in and I love the experience.

Of so wow this was. This was when he was promoting In an Empire, which is two thousand and seven.

I always love.

That answer that he gets there too. I mean, that's the perfect answer.

For it, David Lynch, it's a move.

It's about a woman.

I don't want it's a woman in trouble.

For Empire is unhitched just one of the most such a great film.

Yeah, I wonder if that Hugo Weaving one that's probably forgotten in the archives. He also interviewed Nicholas Refin too after a Drive came out.

If you guys remember and Vigo Morton soon.

Oh yeah, I forgot about Vigo. Good point. Yeah, I don't see the Hugo Weaving one.

But White White and Vigo going in tours I.

Don't remember, probably because there was a period where Alex was able to interview a lot of Hollywood people when they had a thing to promote.

Yeah, he won.

Hey, Alec Wild Wild Courses.

Oh that was when that movie. Yeah, the Horse movie came out, which that movie was not very good. I went to see it, but no, oh no, no, take that back. It was about The Road, right because they did Matt McCarthy's The Road with You with Vego in it. That's why. Yeah, back around two thousand and nine, right when we had the Obama era, it was very dystopian

Yeah, somebody, if somebody's only seen the film, I would recommend forgetting it the novel.

The novel is really something special. That's a really good novel.

I was going to ask you, because I know you and you and John have read a lot more. I've only read Blood Meridian, but you guys have read a lot more. What's your thoughts on The Road?

I mean, I think The Road is one of the most beautiful novels of the twentieth century. It's it's really sparse, simple pros and he doesn't it's not you know, Blood Meridian is a little bit more purple and pros you know, blood Meridian, he gets kind of it's very Melvillion, and you know he's influenced by you know, James Joyce and stuff, but he later in his career he kind of really dug in on the hemingway, not thematically, but like you know, stylistically.

Kind of more minimalist. It's what you don't say. And he I just think he.

He mastered so many different types of pros and and The Road is something real special. So as far as like, you know, a critique of modernity, there's you know, it's just it's it's eternally. It's themes that are very outside of space and time, and The Road it habits this liminal space of kind of the sublime essentially, and it's a book that's so it's so beautiful. Actually, it's like

And it's it's that that beauty in.

The pain and the darkness is what the novels about.

It's about a modern assign it's about death. It doesn't happen, it's yes, it's in this post apocalyptic kind of post post postmodernism thing where.

The the ultimate results.

Of postmodernism have shattered and you have this kind of it's it's also a critique of hyperindividualism, whereas the man who's the main character of The Man and the Boy and the Man himself has a lot of these American almost postmodern presuppositions, but they're constantly being destroyed and he's consistently being shown.

By the world that he inhabits that you can't go it alone.

And you know, his reason for living is his son.

Right, and it's you know, it's it's also about the kind of it's his exploration of like.

Of the whole.

Abraham and his son when the sacrifice of Isaac.

So it's a beautiful book. I highly recommend it. It's a really great course. It's one of the most beautiful books.

But it's it's also it's intense and dark, but it's an easy read and it's a fun read.

And the last.

Page of it is one of the most beautiful paragraphs ever written, Like this poem at the end of it.

It's just one of the most beautiful things I ever written.

I remember around that time when that came out. McCarthy was saying that there's no point in writing the Great American Novel anymore because no one will read it, which is somewhat prophetic because I guess he already saw that people were gonna not read as the as the dystopia came into fruition.

There's a scene in the Road where they read they find a library and the books are just all the pages are molded and falling apart, and it's just like everything in the road, everything is artifact. So it's, you know, you're kind of inhabiting this post temporal space, whereas most people.

Are looking at it as well.

It's post apocalyptic and everyone's reading it trying to forensically figure out what happened, but it never tells you what happened. You don't know what happened, and it doesn't matter what happened. But literature itself is obsolete there, and I think that was something he always struggled with too, And just like you know, he obviously gave his whole life to writing, but it's, you know, one of the beautiful things in there is he kind of destroys that as well and

He originally was.

Going to the Road, the original title, the working title for it, and one of.

His early drafts was The Grail, which he and he chopped a lot of that and just really.

Brought it down and distilled it into something that he didn't want it.

To be too blatant, too allegorical.

But it is.

It's highly uh christ Is It's a christe haunted book, kind of like who was it?

That?

Was it? A flannering?

So christ haaunted exactly. That's there's the Neil Postman.

I was actually just reading this the other week where Postman brings in the Orwellian Huxley comparison, and he says, and you know, Orwell is fearful that the government's going to get rid of books, and Huxley talks about.

How there won't even be a need to get rid of books because nobody's going to read them.

Exactly, you won't have to have fahrenhear forbid you wanted, because people will just stop reading the books to begin with. So I remember too. The first thing that I saw actually by Alex documentary wise was not Bohemian Grove. It was actually America Destroyed by Design, because after right around two thousand and three and four, you had the advent of Google Video, and I remember the first documentary that I sat and watched through. It may have been Behemian Grove,

Well, basically that's enough for me. It's it's hard to even describe it with words, and I hope that our hidden cameras can give you at least a small piece of what I witnessed. To have world leaders engaging in this type of shickening behavior. Oh yes, there's much more to come. Mock human sacrifices they claim, just shocks the very foundations of what Americans believe their leaders to be. Ceremonies that in truth had their roots not in the Druids,

So This is two thou Old Dwight D.

Eisenhower, later to become president. The roster of the Bohemian Club reads like a who's who of the elite. Look at this photo taking inside the grove back of nineteen sixty three. There you'll see Ronald Reagan and sitting two people over from him, later to become president, Richard Milhouse Nixon. Frankly, we don't know if these men actively enjoy the things that go on inside the Bohemian Club. One thing is

This story was the most accurate.

And revealing detailing the so called mock human sacrifice.

I like how he keeps saying it's so called, like it might be really even sacrifice. But I remember this is one of the first books that I saw Alex reference all the time, right, Men in Powers by Helmut Schmidt, And I bought the book, right, I have it right up there, Men in Powers, because I was like, is this guy for real?

Is that?

Would they really put this in the books? And I eventually found a copy of this and sure enough, yes it is in there. It does talk about Bohemian Grove, So I'm not going to play any more of that. But of course, I'm sure most people have probably seen Dark Secrets inside Bohemian Grove from a long time ago. But I think for Alex right, the Pivotal documentary was originally mean Grove that kind of got his name out there, and then he did several Police State documentaries which were

You know where. I saw all of those on MySpace.

Really I didn't know that. Yeah, there there used to be.

A dude back in the day after after I originally saw that c Span clip that was talking about skullm boons.

On my Space. There was this guy which if he's if he's ever listening, I think him. His name was.

Andrew, but he was a musician in LA and he was he shared all of the Alex Jones videos on MySpace all day long. That's all he would do, was like Jones videos all day.

That's funny because my Space was always kind of immediately associated with music. But by the way, this might be what you're talking about. Let's see, here's John Carey, many many years ago on talking about us say.

The importance today.

Nor could he have predicted the number of Americans abroad that we help with their passports, with visas, with other problems that arise, or that we help offer to those who want to grow their families through adoption, or who find themselves in legal trouble or distress far from home, or the role our diplomats play screening potential security threats and taking them off the radar screen before they ever reach your consciousness, potentially in the worst ways.

Or that we create a new American job.

Understanding that is already investing more than we do. There four of the five biggest oil and natural gat now buy our exports terrorism.

You both remembers of sculling Bones a secret society at Yale.

What does that tell us? Not much, because it's a secret. Is there a secret handshake? Is there a secret code? I wish there were something sacred I could manifest three twenty two secret number.

There are all kinds of secret stem but one thing is not a secret.

I disagree with this president's direction.

Classic political deflection. One thing that's not a secret. This guy is foreign policy. This guy is that can not hit. And then he asked the same thing to Bush.

You were both in.

Stelling Bones the secret society so secret, we can't talk about.

What does that mean for America?

The conspiracy theorist are going to.

Go, I don't know.

I haven't seen the rep selling bones. So yeah, this was This was huge back in the day, right, Like if you were on the Internet and you were in message boards or like John was saying, you're on MySpace, you would see these clips going around and Alex had like an archive, by the way, of all these clips. If you were a prison Planet member back in the two thousands, go ahead, John.

The other place Jones was on that got him out there was he was on OPI and Andy and he talked about that and they played the clips on it.

Oh, Alex won OPI and Anthony. Yeah, oh, I didn't know that. And that was before they split, back when they were I never did listen to those guys, so I didn't really know their whole their whole thing mean neither.

I just I just remember seeing a clip of it, and I it was.

Not something I listened to or watched or anything, but there was.

A clip of him on there and he's he's telling them that about the skull and bones thing, and they're like really, oh okay, and then they like looked it up and they're like, oh crazy.

Yeah, this might be it, but that might also be old. I can't, I can't are more recent. No, that's probably it. So you're right, John, I think that's the original one

Like, I'm pounding five grand rocks.

Yeah, yeah, I got tiger blood.

Assassin. He was. She was out of control and and Alex was on the view.

Oh yeah, that was was that before even the Peers Morgan. The Peers Morgan took us because.

He Charlie Sheen appointed Alex to be a person and Jones went on the view and then Charlie Sheen like told him, don't.

Even really talk about me, just talk about building seven.

Here's the Tiger Blood winning.

I don't know, man, I was banging seven grand rocks and finishing them because that's how I roll. I have one speed, I have one gear go because on me, I'm different. I just have a different constitution. I have a different brain, I have a different heart, I have a different you know, I got tccer blood.

Man, I'm too smart and I cured my brain.

That's epic.

The run I was on made Sinatra, Flynn, Jagger, Richard's all of them just looked like, you know, droo, be eyed, armless children. I exposed people to magic. I exposed them to something they're never otherwise going to see. And they're boring normal lives and I gave that to them, the built different.

Talcer. I may forget about them tomorrow.

Was that two and nine?

This clip? I don't see a day, but probably around there, yeah.

The probably, yeah the problem there.

There used to be a great YouTube channel, right, I mean and four's YouTube channels were deleted around.

Twenty eighteen or eighteen it was, and there were.

Just thousands of videos.

Alex's channel was one of the biggest channels on YouTube in the early YouTube days that he was He was live streaming his show as soon as live streaming came out, which was like twenty fifteen or sixteen or so.

It was. It was huge.

I mean, he helped to build YouTube's base really and then once they you know, they had multiple ad apocalypses and kind of started tightening up over the years, and then finally kicked him off around.

Twenty eighteen because he got kicked off of everything.

Around twenty eighteen, they had that kind of the show trial era began and he was being you know, sued by the parents the kids of the event, and it was and they took him on Twitter like within the same week I think as.

YouTube it was. It was all the same few days actually, because my WordPress site got deleted at the exact same day that all of Alex's stuff was removed from everywhere, so it was coordinated.

And one of the reasons I think when they kicked him off Twitter it was because he yelled at like a CNN.

Reporter Yeah, it wasn't even on Twitter.

They kicked him off of Twitter for him being mean to somebody.

For Oliver Darcy. Ir. Yeah, it was Oliver Darcy. He said he looked like a rat or a goblin or a munchkin or something, and they decided that was a mean, mean speak. So no mean speak in the New World Order for sure. Yeah. So then I think the next phase was Obama deception because that was huge. I remember that had at one point on YouTube thirty million views.

Really like back in the day, I really like endgame because I don't don't think you mentioned that.

No, I'm sorry forgot an Endgame was that was two thousand and.

Six or five or so it came out, but I think I saw around two thousand and seven or maybe that's when.

It came out.

But I really liked Endgame and at the time for one of one of these like seminars was senior seminars, and I hit a history degree that I was getting at the time.

I did a I did like an academic.

Treatment of the eugenics movement and the.

US influence on the Kaiser Villahoum Institute and vice versa, and so I kind of, you know, the thesis that he lays out in End Game, I kind of essentially expanded on some of those ideas and just did an academic treatment of that.

But that was that was those fun.

Times back in the day diversity kind of like just yeah, I was a pretty liberal university in California, and the actually the professors were all fine because these are critiques of general kind of US policy at the time, and you know, they're they were fine with it. Now, a lot of these ideas and Alex Jones have been has been kind of become the right wing guy.

But like you said at the time.

This was during the Bush administration, right, So, during the George W. Bush administration, anybody who's pushing back against the Iraq War, anybody who's pushing back against the surveillance state.

They were auto filed.

As leftists in kind of the media circus realm. And you know, so you're if you don't like TSA, you know, feeling up your your genitalia, you're you're a lefty. You got to be a you got to be a dem You're the liberal, radical left, anti war crazy person. And a lot of Alex's audience I think were kind of like farmer's market kind of we're like, you know.

Crunchy soccer moms.

Uh, you feel like anti anti uh mandatory pharmaceutical uh things put in your veins, mamas and stuff like that.

Back in the day.

No, Alex actually introduced me to the whole the whole idea of like organic food and all that that all came. That was all introduced to me from Alex via you know, two thousand and three, four five six, that's when I first even I didn't even know there was such a thing until I listened to that.

Yeah, yeah, Alex talking about how there you know, they didn't want to make everything GMO.

They're gonna be all your babies.

It was, you know, he was connecting the idea of, you know, this kind of the eugenics age, which then became like the era of cybernetics, and then became the era of like, you know, psychosocial control through mass.

Media, and then all morphed into you know, we're going to control.

Everything at the cellular level.

He was talking about Montanto back in the early two thousands and again.

That was that was always considered up.

Until Trump when they switched it and they're like, oh, well, yeah, that's like a kind of a right wing talking point now, No, And that was I mean Alex really Alex was the reason that Trump.

Yeah, you're right. Our endgame was two thousand and seven, so actually in game was two years before Obama Deception. Obama Deception was a lot bigger documentary. I mean, it just went massive. I mean it was getting like, you know, promoted on Fox News and stuff. But Endgame was two thousand and seven, and I think that did take Alex to another level because that was very popular online.

Yeah, just I was going to say it was it was a little it was older than that, because I can remember if it.

Was two thousand and six or seven, but I know it was.

It was ancient times because I watched it in an Internet cafe.

Wow.

Yeah, that's old school, dude. Those don't exist, so those are those are retired. I did see one the other by the way in a small town, so there is like there are a few Internet cafes still.

But a lot of a lot of his stuff too was disseminated by people burning DVDs back in the day, back in two thousand and seven, two eight.

Yeah, I did that. I did that.

There was a lot of libertarian types and that at the time.

Locally there were there were groups where I lived at the time, there are groups and we were we were kind.

Of anti smart meter and stuff.

So these were big concerns.

Was like Wi Fi back then, smart meters and microwave radiation being put up all over the place, mandating it being put on your house, and you know the carcinogenic effects of this, and a lot of the people that would distribute Alex's DVDs would be distributing like what in the world are they spraying in some of those other kind of classes.

Oh yeah, I remember those classics. Yeah, that was introduction of geo engineering too. I first heard about that from Alex in two thousand and six.

But I spent many in the afternoon burning.

BB Yeah I did too. I would do that at my college, and I was, as I was telling Harrison yesterday on the last broadcast, I remember at college we did a showing in the theater of Endgame when it came out. So and it was a hassle too, because the college didn't want us to play that, so we had to like wrangle and you know, deal with bureaucracy to get it played, which is weird because the university are supposed to be neutral. It's supposed to allow all

I appeared before the Congressional committee to tell what I knew of activities which might lead to an attempt.

To set up a fascist dictatorship.

So yeah, he begins with Smedley Butler and Military Industrial Complex. Anyway, you guys can go back if you want to watch all those. But again it was it was, I mean, nothing really will change. A lot of people are asking, No, Alex is not retiring, he just will already has new studios and they'll have a whole new network. It's just not called in for war. So basically they lost the name, the equipment and the studio studios which is a large facility. But he's are they.

Going to come out for his new company and try and just shattered as well.

No, they set it up. No, they set it up to where now he's not it's not his company, so he's it's under Big Lee, so Bigley runs it like they previously have the Hodge Twins and a bunch of other people. So it's Alex Jones Network is now owned by Bigley, so it's under a different company. But he already just he's already built all the new stuff and today was the first show on the new network. People were asking about why the website, Well, they took the website, right,

How do you feel about this being the final show under the Info Wars ban.

I mean, I'm unbelievable, crazy, unbelievable. That's very convincing.

So there you go. That was the end of Enforce broadcast, right there was me too, and that which is a lesser known little thing that Alex does when he's ranting. But uh yeah, there we go, and I'm thankful. I had a blast there with the you know, many many times in studio, probably six or seven times in studio hosting the Fourth Hours since two thousand, twenty twenty, so six years of a fourth Hour mini in studio and full shows as well. I had a blast, And Alex

Yeoh Jay, look grets to you and Alex.

Hopefully the fight goes on.

Rip in for Wars.

But someone called in I think two days ago, and they were talking about how, like the East and the West, there are two lungs of the same church and somehow

I feel like that.

Well, I mean, it still might be. You could still you could still say that in a relative sense. For example, you know people Protestants will say something like, you know, the Romans says all have sin and voluntar the glory of God. Okay, Well is Christ a man? Yes, is a part of the all right? So in Romans three, everybody agrees that it's not. It's a relative usage of no one or none, right. So in the same sense you could say, and you could also say, Mary, bro,

I share.

You could also say, hold on, let me finish, let me let me finish, let me finish. You could also say, for example, well, Mary is under original sin. That's why she died, right, So she has the effects of original sin, and sometimes original sin or ancestral sin is spoken of as the effects. Right, we are all under original sin, okay, and that includes Mary. That does not mean that Mary had actual sin or actual guilt.

Well, I would agree from.

Like the Eastern perspective, if she's still under the effects of original sin. But I think I think doesn't the doctrine of the Immaculate conception.

Oh you're saying, why would Roman Catholics say that, I'm misunderstood.

Yeah, no, I feel like it's a contradiction or it seems like a contradiction that the East is able to him Christ.

Is the only sinless one.

Mm hmmm.

Well, they're meant to hold to the doctrine of the Immaculate conception.

I see, Yeah, No, that is that is a good point. But again, I think that would demonstrate that immaculate conception is a doctrine that evolved and was very late.

Yeah.

I think that that was kind of my point, saying, you know, in the same way that they don't have to say the Filio way in the in their version of the Creed, right, and you know, they have some cop out saying, you know, we hold to the theology or maybe they'll come up with some other cope, but I feel like this is another one of those where they're trying to have it both ways and kind of the papacies just it's the only thing that really matters

So that's the only point I wanted to bring up.

And just yeah, that's a great point. I appreciate that. Yeah, look to you and Alex appreciate that. Yeah, guys, if you didn't see the I think it's an hour and a half, two hours that I did with Gerald over on the Crowder channel that went up today. A lot of people are vibing with it very well because we critique the idea that we need to unite with Islam to fight degenerously.

Uh.

And no, we do not just simply worship Israel or anything like that. I call out both Islam and Ionism and Christians Iionism. That is in the topics today. If you guys want to talk about that, you feel free to call in on any topic. Tristan joins me today as my coadjutor. He is officially a coadjutor today provocateur, some would say coadjutor, right, Tristan, you a coadjutor today, said black assassin. Tristan is a tiger blood vacking assassin. I felt like I'm only like black assassin up here

I mean, this is.

I want to ask my good Tristan something, because you're like ten years younger than.

Me, and.

Yeah, I am a boomer, so no. But but back at the time when all of you know.

Ten all that, did you see.

People not a topic necessity.

With things that like emport Wars was talking about back at the day, because I think like people who were more my age probably nobody resonated with that. I was like, you know, yeah, like nobody resonated. I was just curious if you thought that, like ten years down the line, people your age were more open to that.

So two thousand and six, two thousand and seven, eight, at that era, yeah, or even you know, up to like nine, ten eleven. Yeah, no, I don't think it was. It wasn't It wasn't normal. It definitely wasn't normal. There were some people, it was mostly you know, there was a kind of a like a freedom Forum saying that was some libertarians, but mostly just people that were interested

Least back then.

I don't know where he's where he's been going lately. But it wasn't it wasn't popular. There were a lot of boomers, there are a lot of gen xers, and it was just it was a lot of people who were kind of.

Maybe I don't know.

I wouldn't say they weren't fringe people, but they were just not These were normal people.

These were people that had seen.

Something, experienced something that kind of made you know, question grand narrators in certain ways, and you know, people that were that were a little bit a little bit out there.

By the way, JE throw in the chat, No, that was the old interview that I did with Gerald. The new interview just went up here eight hours ago. It's called Unholy Alliance Decoding the Islam Christian quote Friendship with Jay Dyer. So they just premiered that today and we'd actually recorded that I think like two two or three weeks ago. So, uh, this did finally go up. It's already got like a lot of you is on Rumble. It's like half a million on Rumble already. So it

Well, this was just another example. You remember I texted you.

That people were so blinded for their hatred of the tribe that like they literally become retarded.

And oh, well we were talking about the Pagans, right, this this uptick in the neo Pagans in the last few weeks, they're going crazy.

Yeah, well I've seen that.

It's the same with you know.

Even conservatives like oh, we could join teams with.

Islam, like it's the same thing, or the.

You know, the the Ortho people that fell for Brother Nathaniel, And it's just like people get so blinded by that.

Absolutely. Yeah, it's a it's a fervor kind of an obsession.

Uh.

I mean, look at Europe, do you how well is joining forces with Islam going.

For exactly Yeah, people in the chat. People in the chat are saying that anybody who thinks that we should align with Islam should come visit Europe in the UK. Yeah, Tristan, did you want to comment? I feel like Tristan is getting drowned out in the many edivas that are joining us today when he's our chief Ediva for the day.

I'm just one of the just one of the crowd today.

No, no, you're no, you're not. No, You're a special Diva guest today, and I want you to feel affirmed. We affirm you.

You just listen when I talk.

Anyways, we affirm you, Tristan, We affirm you.

Well, you try to you try to deny my black my bipop status.

So I thought I was pretty messed out, to be honest.

I mean, I don't know what I just I don't know what you're identifying as presently, so I can't I don't want to make rash judgments or dead name you.

Yeah.

It's it's interesting thinking about kind of what we're talking about earlier, with the the shifting tides of political discourse, you don't shift that much. It's uh, there's a there's a consistent corralling into utilitarian groupings that people will make in order to try to create, like, you know, some

Ron Paul was another catalyst for Alex to kind of go to the next level and ran Paul too to a degree.

Yeah, that was that was a big deal. I mean, that was that was huge.

It just keep his conversations with Ron Paul back in the day, those.

Those would blow up and be all over the place.

But it's then, you know, seeing how things went with Trump and you kind.

Of feel I just feel like a.

Lot of sympathy a lot.

I got a lot of sympathy for Alex. It's he's been that.

Dude has never taken away.

Has he ever taken a week off, has he ever taken.

A month off?

You know, he's he's just he's got to be so

And you just see him getting just slapped in the.

Face over and over again.

And he's alex Is, he's like the last great American.

You know, he's kinda he's a he's a true American, either.

Exalting or a derogatory way, looks like he truly believed in the American principle and this idea of you know, uh, the Republic.

Of America and those kind of libertarian values and that the people should.

Have a say in this.

And I think, you know, he's got he got kind of he got kind of beat up along the way, and yeah, alex is America. Alex Is the American hollegue.

But he's also that's a good That's I was going to say, that's a good statement and a good encapsulation of it, because like someone like myself, I did learn a lot from him over many years, but I'm more cynical, like I was raised to be cynical, and he he.

Always, like like you said, he always believed in the idea of America and.

Kind of where I was not like that.

That was never something that resonated with me as I listened to his radio show over many years.

It was just.

Something that, you know, it was like, he says a lot of good stuff here, but then this kind of faith and the Founding Father's type stuff didn't resonate with my version, with my version of Generation X, because he's a little older than I am.

Yeah, it's it's it's hard to Yeah, I think it's easy to get real critical of people. I think, you know, people like us who come from kind of more cynical subcultures and countercultures and who have been through a lot of these different countercultures, we've had a deep seeded itsm there's something about California too.

They'll do that to you.

Growing up around like culture creation and seeing the faultness of it there, that that deep rooted cynicism. Sometimes we turn against Alex, you know, definitely don Winter period.

So I was like upset with Alex, like how I doing this?

But you know, as the.

Years go by, as you mature and get older, you kind of realize, you know a little more sympathy for you know, even.

Mistakes that people make, right, we all mess up.

And I think the first thing that you asked me Jay earlier about just my thoughts and all, you know, politics and everything, I definitely agree kind of with you that it's it's mostly fake and gay, and you see the results of people who try and hitch their wag into it too hard. You know, there's there's a few different directions you can go, but you kind of just I don't know, the little like like you can't sell just parts of your soul over and over again and

This is this.

Bifurcated reality, and this is just how it is.

But this is this has been how it's been.

The whole post World War two order and the whole.

Project of like postmodernism is uh, it's it's a giant failure at the human.

Level, at the level of the soul.

And we're not going to find some political solution. You're not going to get like the right political movement that's going to fix it all. And Alex has known that, but he, you know, he thought maybe we could get certain things done with Trump and I think that I think that took the biggest toll on him. It's just how you know how much it hurt him to see what happened with that momentum and that energy.

And now it's just this.

You can see the cynicism coming back to him.

Every once in a while. And then you'll pump himself up with.

Like the street Preacher stuff like life is firing in its beauty and he's Yeah, I like Alex a lot. I like he's a he's one of the he's a character. Shout out to my buddy Dangerfield. He always says that Alex is the last great American.

I get where.

Last right American? Yeah, with that b LA has got that. Uh. Larry Nicol so uh. And by the way, trustan over talking in past tense. Uh, nothing changed, Alex went right back to the show the next the show today. So the only thing that changed, like talk like like you passed away or some of the He's not that dude. We didn't pass away.

Bro, He's good.

So again, does it like take a.

Break and get so over for a bit?

You know, I'm not saying that he's like, you know, breaking down or anything, but you can say alcohol takes his toll on you. It takes a toll on the body and on the and I if I was in his position, I'd be drinking a health a lot too, So I can't I can't blame him for that.

But it's just you.

You want the best for Alex. You want to take to take a break.

It's got to be freaking exhausting going so hard for so long. So I hope he uses this transition to kind of you know, get a little bit of a little bit means mental health, his mental health.

Like the millennial the gen Z millennials speak of mental healths.

He's having mental health right now, guys.

We needed to get his mental.

Health redeem Zoomer. By the way, I thought this was a funny comment said in this and I'm saying this because Ru's run Ruslan retweeted it. There's nothing in the Church Fathers that they unanimously confess that the Protestant Confessions also don't teach. This is so preposterous, and these people are so absurd that they're just going to continue making converts orthodoxy by saying these kinds of ridiculous things. And

Go ahead?

You're on the air.

Hi, can you guys hear me?

Yeah?

All right? Thanks?

Man?

Uh, I was just speaking about Ruslan.

I don't know.

Did you see the video he did?

Where he was interviewing that Jared atheist like.

Church audit guy. Did you see that?

Like, so he invited him.

To his like you know, to the talk there.

And it's funny because so the guy's an atheists. He says, it's all nonsense, it's all ridiculous stuff, and like he.

Doesn't believe it. He's one hundred percent certain that Christianity is not true.

And then Ruslan and all these other and this other dude that was with him was like, hey, you know, asking him for advice, like how should Christians.

Like be able to preach to him more, you know, to be more accepting.

It was one of the most cut things I've I've ever seen. And obviously the guy was like was saying stuff like, well, you know, be more accepting, don't shove religion down people's like making it more amenable to him.

You know, Well that's right, that's the whole brand, right. Ruslan's whole brand is make Christianity into a black R and B manifestation, right, and then then we'll get all the the cool people. Is it is it you talk aout heliocentric or is it a different person?

Yeah? I think it is.

I think it's the same guy, stat Jared guy that he went to an Orthodox church too, he visited some other he visits church.

Just he's an.

Atheist, that's him.

Yeah yeah, I mean I'm.

Like, well, Ruthlan's willing to talk to him even though he thinks like Christianity is complete nonsense, and he is like the point, isn't he wants his perspective, Like that's how serious he takes the faith. But he's not willing to talk to you know, people like you or whoever else, like you know the game.

Like yes, so right, remember this was the same critique of Trent Horn, right, like I don't want to toxify myself by being in the in the circles of toxic people like Dire or Tim Gordon or whoever. But then they'll go and they'll talk to and do debates and platform themselves with the most absolute, degenerate, disgusting people like Destiny,

I think maybe part of it too is I think kind of the tension here is that like they don't have this critiques with Muslims, you know, like like for example, because they see Muslims as the other right, like as enemies, so to speak.

But they can have like they can make.

Fun of them, they can have dialogue with them, even like sitting in the same room.

But I think with Orthodox since they they assume they have the like.

The conceit that we're on the same team, they get like mad when we make fun of stuff that they do, even though it's kind of the same thing, like they are a different religion, and so we engage in this like, you know, we engage in this dialogue that can sometimes be more friendly, but also sometimes.

More you know, rhetorical rhetorical.

And then because they just like you said, collapsed all this into ecumenism, like there's no space. They can't tolerate that we're the like we've up ended them, you know, like that's pretty much.

Yeah, their whole ethos. Yeah, the whole ethos is the dogma of ecumenism, right, because notice they want to talk about toxicity, they want to talk about the common Gospel that they supposedly share. According to the confessions that Redeemed Zoomer holds to, Trent Horn is a damnable heretic. He's

Right?

Yeah?

I don't want to take too much of people's time here who want to speak up?

The only thing I was I'm thinking about.

Too, is just maybe you know, because of what you've said here, do you think it's time to kind of like, I know this is going to sound controversial, but do you think orthodox maybe need a step back from actually debating people because it's obvious that you don't care anymore?

No, no, no, I mean I think by the way, uh oh oh.

People should be debating as Jay and I all right, everyone, thank you to stand down.

Well, look what it.

Needs to be more concentrated, like only a few people debating and it needs to.

Be like a public thing, like very public.

Not these things you see once in a while on the internet that's just you know, uh, swap to consume. But like formal debates that are big, big audience and then and then kind of leave like debates aside and kind of be almost a sitting, like we need to be more focused on ourselves and building up.

No, I don't. I mean again, there's plenty of that, but like, uh, I mean, we saw in the last what a few years, in the last couple of years. This year we saw tens of thousands of people, according to Deacon Rolling, brought into Orthodoxy, and in twenty eighteen it was it was in the thousands. So no, if we continue, we will see hundreds of thousands in the next five years.

I was just joking about that, but I would like to be father Deacon Gatekeeper and those debates.

You could be the You could be the gate You could be the gaate keeper. All right, right, you got me with a gay joke like two weeks ago, So I'm getting back to that. You got me and I got you guys. Guess what just went up one minute ago? Yes, you got it them. Freemason debate. It just went up literally two minutes ago. So everybody's been asking for weeks, when is the Freemason Chase Guyser debate going up? There you go, boom, it's up, baby, two and hours and

What were the points where they were most where they were most upset? What was the what did you say or what was your argument that really trip them up?

So the debate early on, so they didn't even get to open I give an opening statement like a like more like a formal debate, and they they gave personal testimonies as to why they're they're Freemasons and they think it's a good organization. Oh yeah.

It was just like, well this is I feel like this is cool.

Well I thought so after the opening statements, I thought that was what was going to happen. But we right away. The first hour of the debate ends up being whether or not Freemasonry has theological commitments. And so their position was, we're absolutely neutral. You don't have to have any theological commitments except that you have to believe in higher power.

Wouldn't Freemasonry also have a theological assumption of like pism?

Correct? Yep, radically human is That's exactly where the debate goes yes, yep. So the first hour I start bringing forth examples of things that they would not allow. I say, so, for example, if I am a committed theistic Satanist and that's my quote, higher power, can I join the lodge? And they say, well, we wouldn't typically allow a Satanists. And I'm like, well why not, Well, there's certain theological points that would exclude you. I'm like, oh, so you do have theological dogmas?

Well what about you say? Well, what if I were elusive?

Oh?

Actually, I do bring up the Albert Pike quote that that ends up being a contentious part of the debate in a second hour. But again, the first whole first hour is getting them to admit that they do have theological dogmatic commitments. And the way I got them to eventually admit that was by bringing forth multiple examples of

The Scottish writer you're right or did they get into.

That of like we so.

Right?

They're Nigerian, right. No, we do get into that. I'm trying to remember. Most of the debate ends up just being about the the structure of the the Master Mason degree, the first three degrees, and the Blue Lodge and all that stuff. We talk a little bit about Scott about.

Uh so you know.

Mormons are structurally Masonic, right, other things. I've had the second encounter with Mormons where they just straight up live like we don't have any hierarchy, like nobody's in charge.

Like yeah, that The whole first hour of the debate is that, And yes, I do eventually get them to admit multiple times. And then later on in the second hour of the debate, the question comes up when so the audience starts asking questions and then we get back and forth between them and me, and somebody asked the question about ethics, like where does masonry derive its ethics?

This, Yeah, you little pipe it through here here?

Yeah, sure, yeah, I'll put it on a little bit faster speed here.

All right, everyone, thank you for coming out today. We have a awesome debate that we're very excited to do in person. First and foremost, you want to thank the venue. This venue is super awesome and it's a it's a dual purpose venue for events and as a workspace, So anybody who lives in Nashville, we do highly recommend this place to do either of those things. So Robert, if

Obviously, go for it. I'm no longer in a relationship with Freemasonry. No, I'm joking. So I'm Jaydre, orthodox apologist, debater, sometime community comedy writer, a host of the Fourth Thout Alex Jones Show, and you can find me, of course on YouTube and whatnot. I am an Orthodox Christian, so I believe that Masonry is incompatible with not just worthodox Christianity, it really any of the traditional bodies of Christianity have pretty much exerted statements on that. So am I doing

Now, let's go ahead and say who you guys are, and then we'll kick it off with a extended opening statement.

So go ahead, Ryan, I'm Ryan for people.

I'm the only guy up here that you probably don't know. I am a lifelong Ashilian, thirty third degree Freemason and a freemason for about eighteen years now, and I am a Protestant Christian put it Rawley, and obviously I am pro Freemasonry.

I'm Chase geyser. I have been a Freemason since two thousand and eleven. Saw was that, but fifteen years a thirty second degree Freemason, not a thirty three degree like big boy Ryan over here. And I'm a non denominational Christian.

Perfect.

All right, Well, you just go in the same order here, go ahead and kick off with your extended opening statement, and then from there we'll go into an open discussion where it's kind of just a no holds bards, go any direction you want within the prompt at the debate. So go ahead in your open statement, Jay, Yeah, So I think that what we want to think about in terms of Christianity. And again I'm going to argue that although I'm Orthodox, really any of the representative historical bodies

So what is it that would make it antithetical to Christianity. Well, for my argument, I would argue that saying that you are a Christian freemason is equivalent to saying I'm a Christian gnostic, or I'm a Christian pagan, or I'm a Christian who's a member of the Marxist Communist Party. The reason that you can't say that is that the philosophy and the ethos of those systems that I gave are at roots antithetical to the basics of the philosophy in

Point at the jay, I like that. You got that?

Yeah, I wanted to. I wanted to throw in a twist and get them to realize that, you know, you're actually saying that you're more enlightened and spiritual than your own Protestant pastors who aren't Masons. So you're introducing a tiered Gnostic structure into Christianity, which Irenaeus says one on one is a refutation of the Gnostics.

I mean, you could just.

Bring up the actual rights of initiation, which point is you guys did get into that.

Right, We do get into that. Yeah. At one point, yeah, I bring up the.

Uh.

We actually get into an argument over one of the one of the rights and rituals, and then they act like they'd never heard of it. I forget which one I mentioned, but one of the rituals has something. Is it It's either the name Maha Bone or the name Jabulan, which is one of the supposed names of the deity or whatever, and they act like that doesn't exist. I'm like, dude, come on, it's like, you look this up. It exists in the roy It's the Royal Arts Degree. That's it.

Obliged by the rights of initiation and the oaths that they take to deny that.

Correct.

I know it's a lie, but.

It's outside and that's a part of the rights of initiation.

The symbolism of what's not symbolic.

It's symbolic and seemingly real if you look at the history of like the Captain Morgan.

And these I bring up the Morgan incident to bring up William Morgan. Let me see if it's I think it is Jabulan in the Royal arch degree. And then at one point in debate, they just say that doesn't even exist, and I'm like, oh, come on, dude.

Well, even in Pike in the general Masonry, he's telling, you know, Mason's once he get up to a certain.

Degree, that you risposed to trick the lower level mason thumb correct.

Yeah, And to be fair to them, they may have not known that because this According to dismainline Google search, it claims that this was actually removed in the late eighties. So Jabulon is a controversial word that was used in the Royal arch rituals. It was often interpreted as a compound name of Yah Boul and on so Yahweh Hebrew Bul, the Syriac Babylonian deity and on from Egypt. It was

Which which is always funny about the wordplay stuff, because they take the Masonic sources as being.

True like the found So yeah, they go with just like the Pagans default to the Rabbinic interpretation. Right. If you talk to any of these Neopagans, they ironically just say, did you here's the great contradiction, right, all the Pagans in the last few days, you idiots follow the lives of the Jews and their books. And it's like, okay, why is that? Because the Rabbinic interpretations tell me that we

Instead of trying to initially respond to just each point, I would stay, You're gonna hear a lot from me today.

It's an opening statement, dude. You don't respond to the points. An opening statement.

That the quotes that he pulls out, the books that he references. Jay will try to make the attempt that Albert Pike, er Macki or any of these guys speak for Freemasonry, that they are authorities on the craft.

Now the book is called Morals and Dogma. It was handed out for decades at lodges when you graduated from I don't know, like thirty second degree or something. Right, then you've got the Albert Pike book you're supposed to study. So the idea that these people are not authorities, in my view, is preposterous. Right does it mean that? And he tries to twist it as if I was saying that you have to believe everything that Albert Pike says like he's a pope. No, I never made that argument.

As you'll see, No man speaks for Freemasonry. Freemasonry's not a religion.

We don't know man speaks for Freemasonry. Are you speaking for Freemasonry right now? When you say no man speaks for Freemasonry, I have apostles. We don't have Cannon.

You know, there is no authority on Freemasonry. It's a fraternity.

Again, notice everything he says in the open statement, because I bring it up all throughout the debate. There's no authorities, nobody speaks for Freemasonry. And then I later ask him who decides who's irregular and regular in your Masonic jurisdictions? Oh, the Grand Lodge.

I mean, it's like what that is a system of morality, as we call it. It's essentially a philosophy, and in studying that philosophy, in the system of self improvement for men, we pull from a lot of different religions alber Pigmull's and dog.

I'm sure that's going to come up today. You're that we pull from religions, and then he's going to later argue it's not theological, it's basically a book and comparative religion. Mackis.

Some of these other people we quoted, these are individuals with their own ideas as it pertains to the deity, to Christianity. Some of them are Christian or not. Freemasonry does not require you to be of one religion to be a member.

You simply have to be Oh, but it does you have to be of the Acumenist, syncredous religion, and that ends up being my whole argument, and it takes them an hour to get them to admit that I believe.

In a supreme being. And I'm sure we'll dig into that further. I'll save that for later. But essentially, Masonry leaves a lot up to the individual man as it pertains to his beliefs in deity, because it's not its purpose, it's not its skull. It's not that it's indifferent, it's not that it doesn't care. It simply says that this is a fraternity with certain moral teachings and principles that sure they borrow from different systems, but the purpose is

Now, I'm gonna go ahead and warn you that they were not prepared for a presubsitional critique. That's what I brought to the table was because, as you guys know on this channel, I've sure many of you who are regular listeners you're already beginning to think, wait a minute, we're going to do some tag here. What is the criteria for making men better? What's the value judgment based us there? How are we judging what actually improves? And of course yes, all that will be brought up, but

Keep that in mind, all right, jas Well again, I'm Chase Geyser, former Info Wars host. It's actually how I interacted and met Jay the first time. The first thing I want to do is I want to thank DJ for putting this event together. Kudos to you and all your hard work. I think it's important that these debates continue to happen.

Ryan. Of course, I want to thank you.

Ryan's a very close old friend of mine here in Nashville for a Green to participate in this, because I know that it was participating in something like this is it opens up the door for criticism and problems or whatever, and you just really decided to do it. And Jay, I also want to thank you for Agreen to come

Go ahead, go ahead, Tristan.

That's his opening, that's his opener. It is just tell you about it.

Yeah, like I said, it's it's like Bautist church where you give your personal testimony?

Is it ad read for himself? And like that's that's pretty funny.

How long?

How long is this debate?

Two hours of fifty nine?

Is?

Do you want me to skip? Let me let me skip let me skip ahead to let me let me skip ahead to some of the heat here.

Yeah, yeah, well what about right after the open statements?

Yeah, let's go to that. Let's let's go to that immediately here we go. I'll go to that after this.

We're gonna have some questions on the side over here at the very end. So during this debate, if you have anyth comes to minds you, any questions, write it down and take a note and we'll step over there for a brief period at the end where some of

And I.

First became interested in masonry, like Chase, it's a lot of storytelling. Let's get to the heat, dude.

He it's worth checking out. And I got into it, and that's what I experienced. Alloge as a website, but we're one of the rarities I view other Christians or my Christianity.

In order to call his book morals and Dogma, I don't know if we're gonna do just Q and a back and forth. I don't care either way. But I mean the idea that well, you know, we just make good men better. It's a radical individualism because it's a Enlightenment philosophy. It's just simple philosophy. I mean that's not actually the case, because first of all, I mean, just the name of the book itself is morals and Dogma. Dogma to me doesn't sound like it's just opinion. That's

So this is a little newer version of Morals and Dogma. But it's the same stuff, just a nicer cover. This is the original preface by Albert Pike, page sixty nine. I don't know what version you have over there, but it'll be in your version as well. He starts out by saying, the teachings of these readings are not sacramentals. They go beyond the realm of morality into those other

Yeah, but my argument was, who decides that it's dogma that you are free to reject or assent to whatever you want in masonry? That is the dogma. You guys see that right.

And may seem to be him to be untrue or unsound. It is only required of him that he show wig what is taught, give it fair hearing and unprejudiced judgment. So that's the beginning to Morals and Dogma Morels and Dogma. As you can see, it is quite a lengthy book. About a thousand pages, pretty complex read what most Scottish Rite Masons today receive since nineteen eighty three, there is this book ridged a light. This is what's given to

I'd like to add a point, if I may, I understand, from a perspective of Western Christian America values American values, how it's easy to look at an organization like the Masons and look at it through the lens of religion. What I mean to say is, in Christianity we have the Matthews, the marx the Lukes, the Johns, the Pauls, and these canon voices that are considered to have pen even though pens weren't a bad yet.

The word of God.

But with masonry this is really more along the lines of apologetics when we talk about the Macis or the mainly Beall's, or the or the Albert Pikes, in the sense that I would like in an Albert Pike to masonry in the same way that I would like in a C. S. Lewis perhapstick Catholicism, and that nothing that C. S. Lewis wrote, whether it's.

Mir cs Lewis wasn't Catholic, Belaware.

Shandy or another work is considered to be part of the canon of Catholicism. It's just his thoughts, his philosophies, his interpretations, his ideas around Catholicism. Specifically, there's not a situation in masonry where we're.

Getting oh way, I was sented to correct him and show him that he didn't even know what he's talking about. Because CS Lewis was Anglican but I think I bet my tongue on.

That thing together, and we're singing psalms that are the words of Albert Pike like he would sing psalms in church that are the words of David for example. And I just want to emphasize again, just like he did in your introduction, Ryan, that yes, these are all interesting books with interesting perspectives and philosophies, but they're by no means canon in terms of Masamic philosophy.

Opinion, Maybe you misunderstood what I was arguing, because I didn't argue that you don't claim to have quotes from Albert Pike saying that there's no dogmas. For example, I noticed in my copy from maybe ten years ago, when I read this on page two hundred twenty two of this older version, I noted that it's the subjectivest relativist contradiction because he says it is dogmatic in masonry, that there's no dogma. So to see the argument, they keep

Ooh, should a dog in a way? We should start with that how did he define it? He defined it as what do you say perfect true? He says perfect truth or some perfection something like that.

I don't know. How do you define dogmas the beliefs that you can't question.

I don't believe that there are any beliefs other than the existence of God that you can't question in freemasonry.

So there is dogma infreemasony. If you would define how do you guys? I find know?

If you would defe the necessitation of the belief in God is dogma? Then yes, according to that definition, that would be dogma.

Because so there are dogmasms, there are requirements for membership, so well foundational pray for your reado iline. The word dogmas, any requirements, is not dog anymore. I mean, if we want to argue over words, we can do that. But no, it's not arguing over words. This is the first time, when you know, any times somebody's being to lose itt of eight most of the time in my experience, when

I think.

I think the argument was that the words of Albert Pike are not masn on dogma.

No, I'm asking you, are there any Yeah, well you have to believe in God. So if you consider that to be a dogma, then yes, he's not the only ones. There's just one.

We have what's called the ancient landmarks. Now the landmarks can differus.

Oh so now there are dogmas, you see, Yeah, you see the movie and the goalpost. Now there are dogmas, but we don't call him dogmas. They're called doctrines and landmarks.

Changes.

Have to change the title of Albert Pike's book the next edition correct doctrinemarks.

Doctrine landmarks exactly.

Remember he said there's one dogma and that's you and for some reason things dogmas that which you can't question.

Anyways. Uh, it's you have to believe in God. It'd been nice to ask him, like.

Who that's where it goes, and then it turns into and then it turns into what what kind of do you do?

I can't give him step back just to we use Masonic terms, and I have to realize that you guys may not know what what that means. Mason, he's very decentralized. So in Tennessee, there's the Grand Lodge of Tennessee. That is the supreme Masonic authority for Tennessee. Oh, there is a little other group that tells Tennessee.

Thought there were no authorities or apostles members opening statement. We don't have apostles, we don't have authorities, there's no popes. But there's the Supreme Grand Lodge of Tennessee that's the authority. Oops.

Yeah, Like I like how he frames it, Like I know you guys might not know, you know, not initiates.

Yeah, we're profane, we're retarded. Yeah, we're profane.

Do you believe that there.

Is no authority? It's very essentialized.

But yeah, exactly. The whole debate, the first this whole first hour is just this over and over and over. What can you said? Being to know authorities?

Now, there's just did he make a face when he said that?

Like there has to be a facial twitch that goes along with him dropping that grand authority of Tennessee line because it's so blatantly contradicting the point he's trying to make.

Uh, he just kind of there's he kind of keeps the same phase throughout the whole thing. Supreme authority. I'm talking within our structure. So notice right here I said, wait a minute, I thought there were no authorities, But there's a supreme authority. So there we go.

Only one other, Yeah, there's just one. We have what's called the ancient landmarks. Now the landmarks can differ among jurisdiction. If I can give a step back just to we use Masonic terms, and I have to realize that you guys may not know what what that means. Masony is very so Uh. In Tennessee, there's the Grand Lodge of Tennessee. That is the supreme Masonic authority for Tennessee. There is no other group that tells Tennessee what it can it can do.

You said to begin to no authorities. Now there's a supreme authority I'm talking is eight. There we go within our structure with others. So of course we're talking about your structure. What are you what are you talking about? No authorities or are their authorities?

I said, no one man is an authority on masonry really early there's no apostle.

There's no authorities, is what you said? Yeah, I said, no one. No one man is Albert Packet. Well my hostles is were ol uh. And then authorities is plural. So there is a system of governments within Freemason. There are authorities, the Grand Lodge of Tennessee, and there an to See. So there's dogmas and authorities.

You have to keep in mind that I think we're I think we're talking about authorities in two different senses. There's no there's no logical or philosophical authority in Masonry, but in terms of organization.

But he probably sure have to believe in God that would be theological. So that's nonsense. I think that. I think that you're on the semantics run here. Yeah, I think we're going on circle. Are you serious? Yeah, I'm serious. How is that a semantics run? When he said you have to believe in God? Yes, of course you have to believe in God. And so there's a number, but there's no like human authority within the organization. There is who PAGs the cannon. There is a dogma, and then

And it can rightly explicit in the claim that you have to believe in a supreme being or be a mason, because so I think a or we're disagreeing is on interpreting that and perceiving that as a dogma.

Oh, you said a term you want to use. If you don't like the word dogma, it might be helpful. What is the orthodox do you want?

Dogma?

Dogma means that wells leave this in order to be orthodox.

Right.

Dogmas are beliefs that you cannot dispute or question. For example, the niceing creed for an orthoised Chrisian would be something that you can't be a Christian and say, well, I don't believe in the deed of crime, I'm believing, you know, the teachings of you know, Council, might I see or something like that. Those will be things that you couldn't question and still be a recognized member of the group. You would be seen as an area.

In or certainly if you did not believe or cease to believe in God, you would not be able.

To be a made So that's an as argeyment, which was that there are dogmas, whether you want to call them that term or not, because I can't be a Mason if I'm an atheist, right unless're grand orient loge direction. Okay, so there are dogmas, and that's theological right, I believe in godsteological. I believe your argument was that the words of Albert Pike or dogma. No, I didn't argue that I said in the book is called.

The The kind of line of argumentation that ends up happening with.

These Masons is pretty much the same as Protestants in general about order of authority, and that's.

Rely that's exactly where the debate goes, Yep, they're.

So spiritually united, and it's I mean, it's no surprise that Masonry and the kind of age of Enlightenment erupted after the kind of you know, the pest ones of direct the nation.

So yeah, that's just that's how that comes to mine.

Ears what kind of they're no, they They consistently throughout the debate will reference the Protestant principles of nobody can bind my conscience, and we're free to accept and reject, you know, all kinds of stuff that we want. And I'm like, well, then how does that square with the supreme jurisdictional authority of the Grand launch stuff.

If you're a definite a dogain, you misundersto the argument when I brought up when I brought up, you said, there's no dog let us let us just concede that there is the dogma and freemasonry that you have to believe in a supreme being. But that that's not the beliefs of Hourpike or Albert Pike is irrelevant. I can go to another one of these guys and I'm just going to make the same argument and say, and I would make the same argument now that there is no less guys that are in the art ordin. It's a

I guess again, we're just arguing the words. You know, it's a philosophical argument. You don't understand it, I'll be mean. I'm saying, don't under say I understand it. I just what's the There is no there is.

No dogma in freemasonry that individual members can I have their own dogma.

So it's a subjectivist and relativist because if I can have my own dogma, can I have a dogma that I'm a Satanist and I'm a Mason? No, so, and then it's dogma I can get into the landmarks and some of the few like, yeah, that's actually, that's good, that's yeah, we kind of exist. I'm not trying to

Do you want to respond that I'll changehoppies if not? But you just said no, No, it's okay, I understand what you're trying to say. I would say that the organization of Freemasonry does not prohibit people from having their own dogma, just doesn't take a position on so many of them. Now it has its own dogmas. In the sense that you have to believe in a supreme being. There's ancient landmark kind of rules and requirements associating with differrinity.

You can't be an atheist, right, can be a Satanist?

No?

No, well I thought, and so I thought you had to be a monotheist. Yeah, what if I'm a monotheistic Satanists? Yeah, so there's again no I'm serious.

Yeah, yeah, there are people that I can I finish my thought on the more addictional and authority. So, so it's decentralized. Do you have in Tennessee the Grand Lodge of Tennessee? In America, every state has its own Grand Lodge. The rest of the world, it's usually every country has a Grand Lodge, but there is no overarching body. There's no Grand Lodge of America, no Grand Lodge of the world. It's decentralized, decentralized. So while it's mostly the same, you

But yeah, sure, by the way, you guys feel free to break in at any point in me.

Is is there a lot of kind of reactionary to papism or something, because yes, it seems like this keeps coming up.

It is correct, absolutely, this.

Kind of strong man that they're like attacking, Uh.

The strong.

No, I mean yeah, centuries of Freemasonry are positioned against the papacy. So absolutely, and that's why I think he immediately went to, oh, you must mean that Albert Pike is like the pope of Masonry. I didn't say that. I just said, is it a dogma? That there's no dogmas? Right?

That is the authority, Like can you realtimate authority of mainstry and every other Mason is is it. It almost seems like they try to.

Make that no, that's what they do. In fact, they

I mean, It's actually an interesting debate because it shows how these beliefs of like you know, the hyperindividualism of the Enlightenment yep. How the vehicle for the the enshrining of all these Enlightenment principles in the world was largely Freemasonry, right yep. But then also Protestantism being the midwife of the Age of Enlightenment and all of these kind of orders.

So it's like this, these are the forces right here that just that gave.

You postmodernity and like just total relativism and complete you know, zero rudder, zero center, gravity of meaning in the world, and like this it really Protestantism itself is is just Pats pre masony in so many ways.

Absolutely. In fact, the debate really even beyond the question of authorities, it actually ends up being a debate about neutrality because their whole argument rests on there being very neutral religious claims, right, like natural basically just natural theolo. They don't know that it's natural theology, but that's essentially what this debate ends up being about. And you guys might think, oh, this just ends up being stupid, it's not worth it. There's actually a few points where now

Actually, as it's phrased in Tennessee and most jurisdictions will be pretty similar to this. It's you have to have a belief in a supreme being and the accountability excuse me, a supreme being to whom all men are accountable. Within that requirement, obviously we have our own teaching, so a supreme being under I think most Satanists definition do not consider Satan to be the supreme being.

The whole part of this theistic Satan argument is to show that as they start making qualifiers to what type of supreme being is allowed, they're making all kinds of theological commitments. And that's what they didn't realize. And so that's why I start doing this, is I just start listing all these absurd quote supreme being beliefs, which shows that there's no such thing as a generic supreme being doesn't exist. And I prove that by every time I

He is, and you know, I'm not an authority on Satanism, but another Masonic teaching or dog line, if few old Jay, is that this supreme being is a creator God, that's the uh supreme architect of the universe.

So uh Satan. They don't even realize that the word architect already has all kinds of baggage packed into it.

I was just going to say that.

Yeah, so in some sense it could be a deistic, impersonal god, but how can you be responsible to uh impersonal force?

Exactly?

I'm responsible to this rock.

And it's all the same arguments that we have about natural theology.

Yeah, as far as I know, no Satanist claims that Satan is a creator. Beyond that, again, it is a system of morality. There's just certain morals.

By the way, there are theistic Satanant groups that could believe that sets the creator. Sure, why not Gnostics? Right, this world is created by a fallen.

Being in values within Satanism that would not be compatible with them all and teachings of Freemasonryhead go ahead, Jay.

Yeah, So first of all, the temple up set, as an example, is a theistic Satanic group of Michael Achino, who was the famous did you say deistic or theistic Satanistic group? Michael Akino was the famous army colonel who drew up the army's psychological warfare teachings in his writings about black magic and using that for pyops, and his is an example of a sect that has had prominent peoples as its members where they believe that the supreme

Sure. Why.

There's a couple of points that come to mind. The first point that comes to mind is in your introduction you mentioned the of course incompatibility of free mason with Christianity because of the philosophy and ethos of Freemasonry being just genuinely incompatible with the philosophy theology of Christianity. And I would say that the philosophy or theology of Satanism and almost all, if not all, of its manifestations is inherently incompatible with the principle's values of Masony.

But the principles of values of Masonry are that you, as an individual determine what subjective reality and truth is, which is the essence of Satanism. That's exactly the argument that I make.

The second thing that I would say is regardless of the technical acceptance of somebody of that persuasion into the fraternity and a practical manner would virtually never happen, because you have to have unanimous consent to have a new member.

And they think I'm worried with the mechanics of a Satanist getting in. They don't even understand. I'm making a philosophical argument to show that you actually have a bunch of theological commitments. I don't care about satan Is sneaking into your lodge. That's not the point. The point is you're having all of these theological commitments at the same time as saying we don't have theological commitment chated into a lodge. And I can't.

I mean, I'm sure you could find obscure examples. There's probably examples of people who are Satanists that have been members of clandestine lodges, which is a regular lodges not recognized by any of the official.

Brand lodges of the world. But I don't, I don't, I don't.

I can't imagine a scenario in which a Satanist would be allowed into a lodge as explicitly admitting that he's a Satanist.

Real quick, though, what exactly.

Would a satanist if they were a monotheist, what requirement would they be breaking where they couldn't enter? Yeah, if they were a monotheist, So they got through that hurdle, But what would be stopping them specifically as a would it just be the other members accepting them in or would there actually be a principle in which they're violating exactly?

No found on that.

Yeah, at least here, like it's explicit that we say we don't allow Satanists. Oh, so that that actually is a okay, we've not allowed We've only had one ever applied for membership on the lodge and he denied this all these like base level requirements the way you join, this would.

Be refuting all the points that he made in his opening statement. So you see that as they begin to actually explain things, they have quite a few dog mos.

Don't they lodge you petition? It's simply an application. Uh, there's an interview process. A lot of times there's a group that will go to your home, meet with you and meet with your.

Like their whole point in this was to sell masonry. Like they're like marketing masonry, And I'm like, okay, yeah, I get it that you like it. You have all these marketing sales pitches, but like, when are you going to address the arguments that are being made?

Oh, so there's an investigation, there's a background check, there's an interview amongst in front of the lodging, and different lodges can have like slightly different processes in all of this, but but you have these you know, base level requirements, and then the lodge itself is doing its own investigation into your moral character and whether or not you're a fit essentially, and we're not supposed to be we are exclusive, what we're not exclusive?

So what's the basis for the moral character? That's what I asked him a little bit later.

It is based off of race, religion, or you know, socioeconomics or stuff like that, but it ultimately it does come down to character, and I would certainly argue that a Satanist is not of the character to be a Freemason.

So the point was not are there Satanists getting into Massoni lodges. It was an example that was used to try to illustrate the ambiguity and the absurdity of saying that there's no dogmas and we're not theological. Oh, but you have to believe in theism. Oh but it's not the Satanist. So now we're beginning to see that their beginning opening statement was not true. Right, they started qualifying all the things that they really mean by the terms.

Principle subjectivism to say that something is subjective. The way that I interpret that is like a subjectivist believes that everything is subjective. And I think there's a distinction between arguing for subjectivism and having a subjective philosophy. Right, So like Pike isn't arguing that whatever you believe is true for you in the sense of like a contemporary modern day subjective.

Yeah, but he does say that you can determine the theology however you want. So it is relatives and subjectivist. Best says I can I quote him? You go ahead? Is our duty always the press forward? Though absolute truth is unattainable, the Masonry strives towards the light. Yeah, so there's no absolute truth.

But apparently I think that's saying that something is unattainable is not the same thing as saying that it doesn't exist. I think it's attainable for us to go to Pluto today, but I believe that Pluto exists.

How is it unattainable if it exists?

That's a good question, is.

If you argue with limitation that is the problem. Yeah, I think I think he's.

Probably I haven't read that the context around that specific passage, so I can speak for Pike.

What's that that's the.

John Hicks perennialism fail. Yes, So when they say attainable, it's it's uh, I mean unattainable. That's what they're referring to. It's like, oh, the truth and God's behind the fail that's all John Hicks perennialism, which we all know that Masonry's perennial.

Sure, but he's probably arguing that in our in our state as humans where we don't have the capacity to attain or understand absolute truth.

Well, I mean three of the pillars of So this is where I highlight how antithetical it is to what they're supposed to believe as Christians. Right, as Christians, you believe Jesus is the way that you're in life. He is absolute truth incarnate. And I'm pointing out that you can't say that you believe John fourteen six and at the same time say there is no absolute truth. It's unattainable belief and truth that's not objective, like truth is a core value. What do you mean Jay, that that

So I mean even the fact that Albert Pike and that sentence is saying that absolute truth is unattainable, is implicitly stating that Freemasonry makes no claims to have absolute truth.

Okay, is it absolutely true that absolute truth is unattainable? Let's go back to pre seb one oh one.

Right.

They keep skirting the point that I'm making and trying to make this into some game, and it's not a game. Okay, So this is a good Bible, and I actually it's the l in the Bible and truth and Christ don't have absolute truth. Well know,