everybody welcome to our third episode of the last discussing and reviewing the episode titled This little episode of ours will consist of mostly of me trying to convince Jay of the Dead the episode didn't suck because I am expecting you did not love it, Mr. Jay of the Dead. Why are you such an apologist?
for this series, Kyle. Oh! You gave last week's episode a 10 out of 10. Well, it was a 10, but I mean, we gotta call a spade a spade, right? I knew this was coming. So... to set things up in terms of assessment. an evaluation so episode one was future days which the good folk at Internet Movie Database gave a 7.5. Jay, I believe you gave it a 1.7 out of 1,000. No, no, that's a Mac rating. You gave it a 3. Yes.
Last week, through the Valley, Internet Movie Database reviewers give it a pretty unprecedented 9.4, which is very high for that crowd. Yes. And you and I both gave that one a 10. Yes. Clearly not debating that. So the path is right back with episode one with Internet Movie Database participants giving it a 7.6 out of 10. So I am guessing on those stats and from what I know about you that you're going to give this one a four. Bye.
That's too soon. I'm not rating on Jay's behalf. That's just my prediction. So listeners, try to remember that for 20 minutes. And then you'll find out if I was right. Now, why did I say 20 minutes? Because... there's not a lot to talk about here yes true but first Hey, Jay. Hi. I'm so happy I started my day at 6 a.m. podcasting with Gilman Joel. Oh, yeah. And now at my lunch hour, I'm podcasting with Dr. Walking Dead.
Which also means, since these episodes have a quick turnaround time, I'll be hanging out with you tonight, in a sense, as I'm editing this. Nice. Look at you. Yeah. Well, okay. So let's get into this. Not Gilman. Sorry. Other Joel. Joel's dead. And Ellie is beaten severely. So what we do is we pick up kind of where we left off, but with a jump of.
Three months. So three month jump, which is probably exactly what the video game did, because you don't really want to play a video game where you're lying comatose in bed. That'd be a very boring video game. Yes. But before I get to that, I wanted to say, and I think I said this last time, I mean way last time, like season one last time, I really do like the opening credits sequence.
I like this idea of rendering the apocalyptic landscape through these mycelia that also represents the fungus. Yes. And this week's was a gut punch. because normally the end of that sequence has two little mycelia representing Joel and Ellie. And this week, just one. It's just Ellie now. So it'll be interesting to see if they continue to adjust that opening sequence to reflect.
changes in the story because are we next week are we going to get two shorter ones again for Ellie and Dina I don't know but I think it's a nice little touch And it was the most, it was the highlight of the episode. Let's put that out there. Okay, so three-month jump. Ellie wakes up. And she has a very visceral and I would say believable trauma response. Yes. Incredible performance there. Yeah. Very upsetting. Yes.
And then we have to walk through, although somewhat on an accelerated montage timeline, we have to walk through Ellie's kind of recovery and grief. And through the episode, and I didn't actually chart this out, but I'm assuming this episode does more or less give us the stages of grief. I don't know. Did you know anything like that? And you're like, she's in denial. She's angry. Or is she just angry? I didn't take the time to think of that to be honest. Yeah I didn't really either.
Somebody, I read somebody said something like that. So we get some cool moments. she goes to the house and she goes through Joel's things and she finds the watch. which has had some significance over the course of the series, and she finds the gun. Now, I do think this is mildly cool, because it's like she has to make a choice. Does she choose the broken watch, which to me symbolizes, you know, making the most of the time you have left?
and moving on and trying to fix things, or does she choose the gun, which of course is the way of violence, the way of vengeance. Brilliant. You should be a professor of literature. Thanks. I'll look into it. I hear that pay's terrible. But, I mean, obviously she picks the gun. Because, again, it's based on a video game. Right. She's got to pick up the gun. Yeah. And then we just have to have her deal with stuff. She meets with the awesome drunken psychiatrist.
who's my favorite character this season so far, which is Catherine O'Hara. She has to petition the city council to go on a vengeance tour. Maybe that's what Taylor Swift will do next. the vengeance to her uh After all our exes, then we have to kind of build things up to another episode in which something will actually happen. And when I say that, I mean zombie related because, Jay, would you mind telling listeners? How many zombies are in this episode? Zero. Yes, that would be zero. Zero. Yes.
What are your initial thoughts here? Well, do you want me to start? Cause I actually have an, well, I have a number of positive things to say, believe it or not. Well, let's start there. Yeah. Okay. Let's do that. So. First of all, my first favorite scenario in the cinema is we have this dead body. What do we do with it? That's always going to be my top. I love that. Yes, you do. But my second favorite. When you have a committee of people, a team thinking, okay, we've got this major issue.
How are we going to solve it? And you get to be there to hear the debate and the discussion. I love that, Kyle. And we have that in this episode. And I actually think. it's handled really well. I feel like Because you know how sometimes in a film, people don't really behave like human beings. I felt like this community, the people present there were behaving more or less like a community might. What did you think of that sequence? I did like the community gathering partially because.
It evokes for me my favorite novel of all time, which is The Stand. And it evoked for me your favorite movie of all time, which is The Village. Yes. So I do like this idea of we're going to get together and we're going to let people hash it out. This kind of post-apocalyptic. new world democracy where it's like, what if everybody in town could go to the Senate hearing?
we got to hear the voices of the people. I actually wouldn't have minded hearing from Moore, getting a little bit more of the pro-con. Same. But obviously they've truncated it. I think it was actually longer in the script. But they had to cut it down. And then I thought it was good because you have to have your moment, right? You have to have the guy who stands up. And so this.
Interesting choice. Interesting choice. They went with Seth, played by Robert John Burke, who is the homophobic guy. Yes. Who said really abusive things and then apologized and was totally dissed by Ellie. But he's the one who stands up. And it was his Quint moment. From John. For sure. I wanted him to stand up and say, y'all know me. Y'all know how I earn my living. I do it by killing people. Nice. So it did give that little – so that's a third one now. The Jaws.
County City Council meeting, right? Well, what are we going to do? What are we going to do? Amity, yes. I love it. Good. It was a good pull there. And then Ellie gives her little written in red speech, which is fun because it is just. Full of lies. Right. But I was so impressed because the new council member, who's also her friend, his name escapes me. Jesse. Yes, thank you. He recommended that she write it down. So I was very impressed, especially given...
The obnoxiousness of her in the first episode of the season that she did something measured. And believe it or not, props to the screenwriters. I actually thought what she said was very compelling and pretty moving I'm like wow that's Yeah, no, I think that, and of course the actress does a great job, but it's Ellie playing humble, contrite.
Right. And she makes a very good logical argument. Yes. This is what we need to do and this is why we need to do it. And I will accept the determination of the council, which we've seen in these other narratives. Now, also, these other narratives, if the council says no, they're going to do it anyway. I mean, that's your standard plot. That's right. But whereas in the village, Jaws, the council says, okay, yes.
We're going to back this. We're going to go with it. And this one, of course, they don't. And I thought they were going to go a little cliche and have it come down to just one vote. And then we'd find out that the one vote was actually Tommy and it would cause this rift. I was thinking much more dramatically. Yeah. I think you're right. I think they went much more realistically where it was tied and then it was no, no, no, no. And so I think that was tonally the right move. Yes.
Because then you're like, well, now it's going to happen. I guess she's going to go it alone. So, yeah, Kyle, I mean, this. it astounds me I just gotta appreciate on one level I felt like the screenplay for this was exceptionally well done and even had a little bit of nuance to it where it's like wow this is very credible so just save that in your memory for something because
Because it's going to come back around later for my critique. So that was the first thing that I really appreciated about this one to tell you that much. Also, when Ellie revisits Joel's living space and she sees those those animals that he had carved. That is so powerful to me because... Just even from my own personal life. I mean, if you've ever lost somebody and then like unexpectedly and then you see their belongings, that concept of a life interrupted where like.
someone is just completely taken out of their world and the things that were theirs and the projects they were working on or whatever was going on is all of a sudden just left. empty and unfinished. And I love that concept. They hit that here. So I thought that was a tremendous emotional beat. for this as well no i i think it had heart and it had motions and uh that was where i struggled because i don't
I don't have heart and I don't have emotions. Yeah. You, you do surprise see listeners. You would think. that Kyle because he is teddy bear like in a way he's a good hugger and all that you would think that Kyle would cry easily but he does not He does not cry in movies, which is really surprising to me. No, it's me and Watson, man. We're dead inside. We feel nothing. Yes. But I could tell I was supposed to feel something.
And I think the two scenes in the house, the one with Ellie alone and like the ghost of Joel and then later Ellie with Dina. Yeah. I think those were good because one was like, Ellie looking backwards and then the second one with Ellie looking forwards so it's kind of a new it's kind of a bookend even though they're both in the middle of the show but it's this like I'm gonna go and ruminate and mourn
And again, Bella Ramsey, great job. She looked really traumatized, upset, sad. But now it's like when Dina shows up, tears are gone, stone-faced. We got a plan. We got to move forward. That's right. And Dean is the same way. She's like, look, man, I loved him, too. I want to go get revenge. It's not just you. And so they're ready to go. And of course.
Seth is the one to come to the rescue because, and this goes back to something you said in episode, first episode, I think this is subtly political. Now, others might say it's not subtle. But it's the guy who's like, you know what, I will support the gay kid in her bloodlust. So he has been... enlightened I guess so I do see that there's a little bit of politics there but it's it's nice that he's able to give them the support and help
And then have this, you know, I'd go, but my knee. Right, my knee. Because it's like, well, we don't really want Seth to go with him. But I did think he was going to go so we could have somebody to get killed like they do in horror. I was worried he was going to go. So I'm glad he didn't. Quick question for you, though. This is a little bit of a, perhaps a structure question. Is Dina, to your knowledge,
So the Dina character, is she in the game, the second game? To my knowledge, she is. And I think she's occasionally playable. So she's replaced Joel in the gameplay. and and it also tracks with classic hero's journey stuff that the hero once the hero loses the the guardian mentor figure They got to pick up some other companion because they can't go it alone. So obviously Lord of the Rings, Frodo loses Gandalf, but he's got Sam. Right. And so he and Sam go it alone, quote unquote.
And so that's pretty standard. I also think it's essential for gameplay because from the first game, So many of the like challenges and riddles and whatever required two playable characters where you'd have one character was capable of certain tasks and the other of other tasks. Yes.
And you could switch back and forth to accomplish certain goals. So I think that is tracking with the video game. See, OK, because the reason I ask you and I'm sorry for interrupting you, I had a much more cynical reason. Because I'm like, well, this Ellie character is just not very likable. But they give us the Dina character who is likable. So I'm like, did they do that to kind of fix this Ellie thing?
Because, yeah, I do like Dina and they even have her wear colorful clothing. So she's even more colorful in a literal sense as well. So, yeah, I don't know. You've got to have a foil. And you've got to have somebody who's a little level-headed, a little grounded. But also, yeah, I think you've got to have that more likable. Now, they're also doing, they've replaced the father-daughter dynamic for this weird... Well, what's the female bromance? But we have this awkwardness.
right because ellie is attracted to dina we know that Dina has toyed around with Ellie and experimented on her, which I don't love about her. And then I thought, okay, good, we're just going to move forward. But now Dina's like, was my kiss any good? I'm like, ah. Yeah. So what is Dina questioning? Maybe. I don't know. But I really don't want to see an Ellie Dina romance. I want to see him in the female equivalent of a bromance.
So we'll see how it develops. But the whole scene in the tent, that was the low point for me. I did not care for that. sequence it was just like come on get on with it yeah that was I don't know why it struck me as weird I think it struck me weird as being artificial. It didn't seem like something that they would actually discuss like that. No, it didn't ring with me. Yeah, because the only because of the awkwardness they already have between them.
It's not like they would pile on more weirdness, but maybe. No, I agree with that. And it's to break up the journey from Jackson Hole to Seattle. Now, I'm assuming in the video game that journey comprises hours of combat. In fact, in fact, yes, because my biggest critique of this episode and I still have a couple more positive things, but since you're on the topic. My thing was, I'm of two minds with this episode.
Because initially I'm like, oh, OK, I see what we're doing here. This is going to be the journey. This season is going to be an adventure and they're going to run into all kind of people. such as the Robin Hood Men in Tights community, which I'll come back. I want to talk about them with you. Yes, they are the Seraphites, and we will talk about them soon. For sure, for sure. So, yeah. And I thought they would have a lot of different run ins. But then I'm like, or are we just going to like.
get to Seattle pretty quick. They're going to be there. And I think my biggest problem with this episode, which I'm guessing would be a lot of people's, is it's like Once again, screenwriters who are very smart most of the time, you have seven episodes and a lot of this third episode is just I mean, it seems like it's squandered for the most part because I feel like Kyle, seriously, they could have achieved all of the plot beats or the story beats. within maybe 20 minutes.
maybe, 20 to 30, because when I turn this thing on, I'm like, ooh, this is an hour and eight minutes. But no, it ends at like whatever it is, like 52 minute mark or whatever. And there's still 14 minutes left. And that is for the stupid preview, like next on. Don't show me what's next on. I don't want to see that, first of all. And two, it gets me excited there's more of a runtime. So anyway, I just felt like...
It was kind of not a whole lot happened, even though there are things I appreciate. But like if this was a 30 episode season, then all right. All right, maybe. But Kyle, that's precious. screen time no i agree and that's what they've got to do is that of course the video game is mostly based on combat and problem solving and what we're getting with the adaptation are those moments of cut scenes and dialogue and character development.
So that's just something that I think is a little challenging to negotiate. Now, it's also almost a 900-mile journey. Now, granted, they're on horseback. But yeah, I agree with you. We could have gotten... a full whatever the same number of episodes if we'd had a couple of episodes of you know riding the horse and fighting zombies yeah and the fans I think would have loved that yeah
We like fighting zombies. It's a zombie show. Yeah, we could have had to cut just at least one monstrous battle or even a human type battle. Now. they're gearing up for but i mean give us something right right now these robin hood people okay let's talk about them they were very fascinating to me
Like the slashes on the cheeks, I wasn't sure about, but the whistling, the communication was really cool. And then there, because we're, this is a spoiler show. So we're full blown spoilers. And then their immediate demise. Even the little kid. This is a serious. horror series even the little kid was dead we kill constance yeah this is a little disappointing to me and this is one of the things that frustrated me with the episode the introduction of the seraphite
was super interesting. Yes. And we set up what could have been some parallel editing, right? So here's Jackson Hole. Here's the Seraphite. Oh, do we know them? No, we don't know them. What's with those scars? Oh, they worshipped a prophetess. She's dead now? Who are these people? Where are they headed? What are they doing? And then we go back to Jackson Hole, and we never go back to the Seraphite. until we find them slaughtered. And so I was very disappointed.
It's like, well, they were interesting. We introduced some characters and we have some undisclosed backstory. theoretically, from what I read, they do play a larger role in the video game, but I don't know in what capacity. And I think just seeing there, obviously, I know it's shorthand. Look, all these people were killed, including the little girl. clearly the wolves are really evil. And I think we had to do that.
to get rid of any ambiguity we might have felt before where it's like, well, you know, the wolves are just getting revenge because Joel killed all the fireflies. So now if there's any ambiguity about should Ellie be doing this? Well, now it's like, well, now Ellie's not just getting vengeance. for Joel. She's got to avenge these harmless sweet, you know, Quaker-like characters. Boo hiss, Kyle. Boo hiss. Because...
The ambiguity is actually the dramatic tension that I look for. I would love the ambiguity. No, and we're not going to have it because first off, we show the slaughtered Seraphites. And then we show the wolves are militaristic, disciplined, and all this technology. So by the time the episode ends, you're not thinking, well, what should Ellie do? Instead, it is, oh, she's got to kill these guys, but she's so outmatched.
What's going to happen? I liked that ambiguity that we had with Joel, which was, I know that I did a heinous, horrible thing for which I am likely to be punished someday. And, okay, should the wolves be spending time and assets and energy to get revenge by killing Joel? And now is this cycle of vengeance going to continue? No, that's all thrown out the window. Now it's just back to...
You know, we're back to Walking Dead level sophistication. Yeah. You punch me, I punch you. Yeah, you kick my cat, I kick your cat. And I only say that because you love cats. Yeah, I do. I do love cats. Miss Kitty. So are you telling me then right now, are you telling me that these Robin Hood people, the Seraphimites, Seraphimites,
Whatever they were. Angels. Yes. We're done with them. I don't know. That's it. It seems like the whole group was wiped out. Yes, it does. It does. And all we have is questions. Who were they? What happened to the prophetess? Why do they scar their faces? And apparently those scars were really complicated and they put a lot of time and effort into their wardrobes. And so much of the production resources went into creating these people. Yeah. And now they're just gone.
Here's hoping they come back. It's not this group, obviously. Right. Unless they're zombies. Yes. So I just think it was like you said earlier, wasted opportunity. We had some opportunities here to draw out the action to maybe get the season up to nine episodes or whatever the first season was. A little disappointing. And P.S., the wolves that we've seen, because Manny, Owen, Nora, Abby, that crew, they're considered wolves, right? They were initially in Salt Lake City.
Yeah, they were initially the fireflies, and now they've joined the wolves of... Seattle. Okay. Oh, okay. Okay. So I'm getting it now. So yeah, initially they were Fireflies. Most of the Fireflies, well, a lot of the Fireflies were wiped out. The Firefly leadership, I guess. And so then they've teamed up with these wolf people. Did I miss?
how that all went down, why they decided to join. Well, that's better, I guess, because yeah, these fireflies that came from Salt Lake City, they just don't strike me as too evil. I mean, Abby, we've talked about this. But I'm just saying the other people were like, whoa. So I can't even see them wiping out the seraphimite, the seraphim. Well, I think we've got to have some flashback and backstory because Abby and her group, they set them up as.
semi-sympathetic yes And so now that we've got this really brutal militaristic group in Seattle. I don't think it's going to work unless we show that they're reluctant members, reluctant in this group. So we'll see. Because I'm in The Walking Dead, since you brought that up. I did really appreciate how the people in the prison are people. And then the people with the governor and...
What was that called? Woodbury in that community. Yeah. They kind of both had a perspective, you know, the governor's is pretty wicked, but. But a lot of the towns, people don't know that. And they're just trying to make their way. So I think it's kind of cool because it reflects real life. in the world, right? Because like they always say, one person's terrorist is another person's revolutionary.
Everybody has a perspective and people, generally speaking, think they're right in what they're trying to do or protect their people or whatever it is. So I like that. And if you were just making the wolves this mustache twirly, all their pure evil, then it's less interesting to me. Well, and it's a really weird parallel because there was a similar group in The Walking Dead. also called the wolves that they did not fully develop. So I don't know what that's about.
yeah see I haven't gotten there yet I'm almost caught up to where I left off on that but anyways we're talking about this one There's one other thing that seemed like I had to ask you. Let me just see, look at my notes here. Oh, okay. She visits his grave, which by the way, not the nitpick, but they escape. They sneak out.
and they weren't supposed to sneak out necessarily. And remind me again, what was the name of the city where they live? It's Jackson, right? Jackson. Yeah, it's Jackson Hole. Jackson Hole, Wyoming, right? Okay. Which is southeast. of seattle okay well we hear that joel is buried 10 miles
So see where you're going. So they leave and sneak out and go 10 miles south. And then they got to ride 10 miles north again and pass their community and then on to their journey. I just thought that was a little strange. Well, and that would have been easily fixed because she says, I'll stop on our way. We'll just have him be buried north of town. Yes.
It would have been, but maybe they're just relying on our ignorance of geography. Also, the thing is the montage of them traveling on the horse between Jackson and Seattle is like 90% desert. Yeah, yeah. But they portray it as this journey through this lush, you know, forest the whole way. The forest doesn't show up until almost Seattle, but whatever, you know. Whatever. I do want to mention one thing about that, though, unless you're not finished.
No, well, I just, my quick question was at the grave, it seemed like she put seeds. What were those? They're coffee beans. because he likes coffee because he likes coffee Yeah, it didn't really tug at my heartstrings. Yeah, I didn't. Even me, the sensitive one, it didn't affect me. Here's some coffee beans. I'm like, what is this? Anyways, okay, go ahead. Sorry.
Okay, so one thing I do really like about this series and where I think it kicks The Walking Dead's butt, and to be clear, listeners, it is not a competition. It's not like Star Trek versus Star Wars here. But The Walking Dead has never really effectively shown a post-apocalyptic landscape that's 15, 20 years after the apocalypse. because it always kind of looks like the lawns are getting mowed or there's only that one highway. So I do like the attention to detail they put in here. So first off,
They show they are actually having to rebuild the city, the fortifications there. Everybody's working hard. I like that. And I really like the look of Seattle from a distance. It looks like these cities really have been abandoned for decades. Where things are collapsing, they're overgrown, the cars are really rusted out.
So just if you compare, and don't do this, but if you did a screenshot compare of a freeway between the two series, The Last of Us is really doing a lot better. Now technology has also advanced.
whatever. But I do like that attention to detail. And I do feel that this world that The Last of Us has created is a more immersive world. So I'll just throw that out there. Yeah, I back you on the attention to detail. I mean, it feels... there's a lot of authenticity to the appearance and the set design production design all that stuff
Yeah, absolutely. So what else did you like about it? You said you had a couple other. Well, I think I got through the majority of my notes. That was mainly it. You know, the couple little things I mentioned. But yeah, I mean. I just felt when it was over, I'm like, oh, man. The episode was a little bit short. There was zero monsters in it.
And it just didn't seem like much happened. And I just the biggest reason that I, you know, gripe about it, Kyle, is just that we only have seven episodes this season. That's yeah. Anyway, we're almost halfway. Well, and again, they are splitting the second game into two seasons, so we'll see where that goes. But, okay, I have one big gripe. Okay. So just before the siege of Jackson Hole last week, we discovered the Massilia was in the pike. Oh yes. And nothing has happened in three months.
Yeah. So I don't know what's going on. And I don't know if we're just going to drop that. I hardly doubt it. I hardly doubt it I doubt it that was a double negative But it's like, are the mycelia hanging out saying, well, we'll wait till they get back on their feet and then we'll start infecting people? Or did the guy finally say, hey, you know, they're in the pipes. Well, we better bury the pipes and deal with that later.
It just seems like a major cliffhanger. It was the cliffhanger of episode one. Yeah, yeah. Where is it? So I'm a little concerned about that, but maybe we'll come back to it in a plausible way. Fine. That was my big gripe about the episode. My other big gripe I've already mentioned is it was a lot of linkage, like expositional linkage and some character development, but honestly, not much. And I don't constantly need zombies, but.
Where were the zombies? You know, because even the very human character centric episodes of this show and of The Walking Dead and of other zombie TV shows. I don't think they give us an episode that is completely zombie free. So that was, you know, they could have just shown them riding their horses past some zombies. Right. You didn't need a major presence, but you could show that, yes, this world is still inundated by these critters. It's still a threat.
You can't just ride your horse through the forest and be completely safe. She's got her rifle there. That was bequeathed to her by the homophobe. Oh, so I don't know. I'm just missing. I was missing out on some meat here. And we didn't see we didn't see what's Amy in her crowd, that group, whatever. I'm already forgetting people's names. We didn't see them at all.
So did they make it back to Seattle? Oh, Abby. Abby. Abby, okay. Abby, Amy, whatever. Yeah, I'm like, who's Amy? I don't know an Amy in this. Hey, man, I remember Seth's name. That was impressive. We didn't even get like a touchstone moment of them making it back or what's going on or seeing them in the troops. Yeah. Seeing them in military gear. We just got nothing. So next week is going to have to do some work to make up for some of these things that might be oversight.
So prove to me they're not. And prove to me that we have a plan because Ellie clearly doesn't. So prove to me that the show does. Otherwise, I'm going to be a little whiny. Now, I didn't hate the episode, but I was a little disappointed with some loose ends that remain loose and some missed opportunities that seemingly are forever missed. But we'll see where things go. So that's it.
Where are you at? More closer in ratings, I bet, than you thought. I'm 6.5 out of 10 on this. I appreciated it, but it was underwhelming, as you said. There needed to be more. All right. Well, I'm a 7. Okay. Because I'm a generous, loving person when it comes to zombie narratives. Yes. And because I do have a soft spot in my heart. Now, I'm partially giving it a seven instead of a six.
because of perceived emotionality that I personally did not experience. But because I think it's supposed to be there, we'll call it a seven. Yes. Yeah, I've There you go, listeners. A little bit of a bumpy ride so far at this... pattern holds up then uh yeah next week's episode will be a kicker episode. I would like to see, honestly, where we learn more about them and about to add here bud we'll just say uh watch episode four folks and tune in next week yeah
Let us know how we're getting this wrong. And then we will respond with... I know. I know Greg Amortis is watching along with us. So I know that. Yeah, Greg. Yeah. folks. Thanks for tuning in and sticking with us.