you Hello everyone and welcome to Jay of the Dead's New Horror Movies, the horror podcast where I go off the script even when Jay tells me not to. This is a continuation of our respective look at the Nightmare on Elm Street franchise. I'm your host, Fred Head Ron Martin, and with me tonight is the giant who guides me through the busy highway that is life, Jay of the Dead.
Hey, buddy. Happy to be here. Oh, you know what I was going to say? I couldn't find it until just now. Damn it. I was going to say, screw your pass. That's my favorite line in this. Anyways, sorry. Well, there's not a ton of member lines in this, so you'll have to find something. I like that one. I like that one. Screw your pass. Okay. And a special treat.
If anyone followed me over from the Resurrection of Zombies Heaven podcast, I know we have some listeners from that podcast that are listening to this show. I don't know if you were listening before I came on. Are you probably just fans of the same circle of shows, honestly, but for a treat for those of you who were listeners of the resurrection of zombie seven podcasts reunited and it feels so good.
We're special guests for this particular movie. A woman that I would never let be the nanny of my kids or even my fish. Little Miss Horner, Jessica Feeney reunited with me once again. Hello. That's her dynamic introduction, everyone. Hello. Love it. You're a huge nerd. I mean, you have nerd in your name. Doesn't mean that you're not. And I would not let you take care of my fish. They would all die. Yeah, I'm not a fish.
person i don't know what to do with i don't know how your cats live so long honestly i think that just because you don't do anything with them and they kind of just rummage for themselves around that apartment of yours no they're kind of like wild cats who live in an apartment cats are pretty independent feral cats Stop it. Anyway, for those of you who have been paying attention, we are celebrating the Nightmare on Elm Street franchise in its 40th year of existence.
In this portion of the episode, we'll be focusing on Wes Craven's New Nightmare from 1994. We will be spoiling this movie. So if you have been meaning to get to this one for 30 years now, please take that into consideration. But on to the show proper. You were listening to Day of the Dead's new horror movies, The Evil Trenchcoat of Horror Podcasting.
about my nightmares as I'm dreaming. In order for the movie to continue, it was dependent on me having more nightmares. Well, fortunately, I did. I'm a little... frightened by what Wes may have tapped into. I frankly felt that it was over when we did the last, the final nightmare. In a town where movies go over schedule and directors go over schedule.
So this is the movie where Wes Craven finally got his way. If you've been listening to the whole series, then you know, starting with Nightmare on Elm Street. even that Wes Craven has just been trying to get some sort of meta. Commentary into these movies about the making of the movies, about the horror genre in general. He's been trying to do that since part two. I think he.
Proposed it in part two. He actually wrote it into some of the script in part three that was taken out. And I think he also proposed it for part four and was denied by New Line Cinema. But at this point. Wow. Our favorite 80s slasher franchises are dying a very, very messy death in the early 90s. They did not want to go away. Eventually, horror fans just said, yeah, we've had enough, and they went away.
They went away kicking and screaming. So a few years after they finally kill off Freddie, Wes Craven has been kind of harboring, I don't want to say. A grudge, a resentment, but maybe a little bit towards New Line Cinema because Freddy Krueger is his baby, right? Freddy Krueger was created by Wes Craven and outside of the first film and the third film, which he had a part in writing.
He's received like no royalties for creating this character at all because he had to sign the character over completely to New Line in order to get the original Nightmare on Elm Street movie made. Even though they keep coming back to him for ideas, they don't use any of the ideas. So he has this sort of.
Friend of me, let's say relationship with New Line Cinema, right? Finally, he reaches out to New Line Cinema in order to kind of bear the hatchet. He has a meeting with Robert Shea where he kind of goes over some of his gripes. I don't know that Robert Shea knew that he felt this way or whatever because they come out of that meeting and suddenly he gets a cut of the sequel money. He gets a check, right, for royalties for all of the sequels because he had not seen a check for.
Robert Shea pitches him an idea. Why don't you make another Nightmare on Elm Street movie? The fans still want to see Freddy Krueger. You have these ideas. So Wes Craven then goes about trying to think of a script. For a seventh Nightmare on Elm Street movie, he watches all of the movies, all the sequels, all the original, and he can't seem to find a way to shoehorn Heather Wagenkamp to any of the current storylines.
So he makes – so he decides that since he can't resurrect Freddy, there's no end in any of these stories. Although, I mean, there is Alice and her son who were never killed and just kind of hanging out there. Apparently he wants to know part of that. Heather Langenkamp or nothing. So he has a lunch meeting with Heather and he says, listen, I don't know how we're going to do this, but I'm going to get you in this movie somehow. And then Heather.
Basically, trauma dumps on him about all of her real life situations that are going on, including a stalkerish fan. Some stuff that's happened in her family. And Wes Craven comes away from that lunch meeting. And realizing, well, Heather Leggenkamp's life is actually scarier than any film I could create. And this is where he gets the idea for New Nightmare, which is based a lot on Heather Leggenkamp. In real life. Very cool, right? In a way. I mean, that's pretty cool. It's a unique idea.
He's also – this is also a statement on horror censorship that was happening around this time and this thought process that if you're making these horror – They must affect you some way, and it must mess up your head, and maybe you become psychopathic or sociopathic because of the making of these films, which was – I think that was –
a thought process that was legitimate in the in the 80s i mean thrown out there um by government entities this is when we had you know the censorship of movies and the music All of that good stuff. So this is kind of a F you to that as well. You know, like, hey, this is us making the movie. Everything's going fine. It's not that we're messed up. It's that a real demon. We're keeping the real demons away. And if you stop.
If you don't stop censoring us, they're going to come and kill us all, which is actually – I say that in jest, but that's actually a notion that Wes Craven talked about in an interview. I mean tongue-in-cheek, of course, but – Well, but Ron, if I may say right here. There is that theory of the ideological safety valve, which is if we watch violent. cinema and depictions of violence and horror that it will in some way release the pressure within us to do these antisocial behaviors.
And it allows us to sort of vicariously get that off our chest. And so in that way, horror does also keep us some say. Yeah, absolutely. And that's I think that's what he was getting at in this interview that I watched because he spoke about. how horror has been around since the beginning of culture. You know, if you look at stuff like the old Greek histories, Odysseus, all that stuff, there's a lot of horror elements in those plays.
And those poems of the time. And if we don't, like you said, if we don't release that in some way, shape or form, it's going to cultivate in our psyche. And who knows what will happen then? Horrors obviously saved thousands of lives, if not millions. That's right, everybody. Probably millions. Yes. So there's a little element of that, too. Honestly, I think he just wanted to make sure Heather Wagenkamp got some work.
Good. That's that's my theory on the movie. The plot of the movie is basically that now that the Nightmare on Elm Street series is over, there is a demon. Who has been using Freddy Krueger as sort of an avatar for his real world presence. And now that there's no release for that, this is what you spoke of, Jay. Now that there's no release for that.
in the making of the movie he is trying he or she it's a demon in it it is trying to make its way into the real world where it will wreak havoc and destruction on us all In the form of, you know, an allegedly scarier Freddy Krueger, who now wears a hat or sorry, now wears a trench coat. So that makes him scarier. And then since I am a gentleman.
And I believe in ladies first. Jay, what was your first impression of this? I'm kidding. I'm kidding. You're bad. We'll actually start with Jessica since she's our guest. Yes. Jessica, did you see this movie in 1994 when it came out? This wasn't your first viewing of this for sure, right? No, I don't think I... No, it wasn't, but I don't think I saw it when it first came out. Yeah, was it like a rental special for you? A blockbuster special? Probably rented it, yeah. Probably rented it.
I don't know. What was your first impression when you saw it originally, remember? Yeah, I think I was. I imagine it was hard for you to keep up with. Um, no. But I was. Well, the Nightmare, the Nightmare.
series can be can be hard to follow sometimes you never know what's going on like what's a dream what's not a dream and this one i think uh even more so than some of the others i mean i think i knew what was a dream i remember being disappointed this is not i mean maybe i didn't know what the um synopsis was or you know hadn't really read it i don't know but
Did you go in thinking it was going to be another, like, Freddy Krueger movie? Somehow they were going to bring him back, and he was going to terrorize teenagers in their dreams, say some clever one-liners, and then murder them. Yeah, I mean, I probably didn't think it was going to be what it turned out to be. Sure. Yeah. Well, I mean in 1994 – I'll give this film credit. I mean the meta aspect of horror wasn't quite around as much as it is today. Right.
I mean, I don't remember hating it or anything. It just was maybe not my cup of tea. Hey, listen, it wasn't a lot of people's cup of tea. This is the lowest grossing film in the whole franchise. Are you sure about that? Which is why there is no more of these films that don't have Jason Voorhees also in them. I mean, Freddy's dead. You don't think I researched this film for this podcast, Jay?
I just think you make up stuff to fit your narrative. What kind of half-ass talent do you think that I am? No, I think you're very talented. Go ahead. Keep going. I'm going to look something else up because I saw something different. It made $18 million in the box office. Now, a lot of people who are an apologist for the film, like I'm sure Jay, will bring this up.
That it came out the same weekend as Pulp Fiction. And that was one of the reasons that it did so poorly, even though I'm guessing the Pulp Fiction New Nightmare crossover probably isn't great. But. Go ahead, Jessica. Oh, no. I was just saying, you know, it wasn't for me. Honestly, I kind of feel like no sequels are. Not really, for the most part, even books. Because I just feel like whenever you have an initial storyline that people really get into, it always goes downhill when...
They keep trying to go on with it. You know what I'm saying? I know what you're saying because the weakest film in most... franchises are the sequels usually the strongest film is the original which makes sense because that's probably an original idea the writer has been harboring for a long time and then when it makes money
And the studio goes, we need more of these. There's no more storyline because the guy only had the one story. So then they stretch things out. Right. So we get films. We're like, we have to find Freddy's bones and. and bury them and then two films later we got no seriously this time we have to find the dead body of his mother this time i was just kidding about the bones yeah um so yeah i mean i think that i think that
When you have the first film, and I don't think this applies to Friday the 13th, except for the very late films. No, because Friday the 13th stayed on course, and it did the format it created. It stayed with it for seven films, and that's why it's the most successful franchise. I don't need all that.
Like, that was one of the things I've always loved about The Black Christmas is because eventually they did have a bunch of sequels and remakes and all that. But that wasn't the initial that wasn't from the initial filmmakers. Right. So this film, so this film, you just. I mean, you saw it, but you just weren't down for any sort of a new season. Yeah, this wasn't my thing, you know? Well, I think also at this point, slasher fans were over it too because slasher people stopped making money.
It's better than Freddy's Dead. That fucking movie was just a mess. Hey, we're not to the rating set. You calm down. What? Jay, would you like to throw your three cents in here? Regarding the box office question. If you want if you want to speak up on the box office issue, that's fine. But I'm also just like your first impressions of the phone.
okay yeah i do have a number of things to say but just regarding the box office real quick what i did see is yes i could see where they would feel that this film was disappointing because it had what an eight million dollar budget But it still made $18 million in the U.S., right? But $19 million. So, I mean, it's still more than twice its budget. I know that's much less than the others. But, you know.
I guess they could be disappointed over that, but they didn't lose money on it. Let's just say that. Well, I think some of that can be attributed to fatigue of franchises at that point because all the franchises were seeing that drop. But also.
I think some of that can also be attributed to Freddy's dead. Right. It wasn't received very well. Right. Right. That's true. Yeah. See, one reason this movie is scary to me because you mentioned the trench coat thing is it reminds me of the nightmares that I have.
which have Dr. Shock and a trench coat and nothing else. It's just the trench coat. Hey, it's odd, guys. For those of you who are listening right now, if you don't know what Dr. Shock looks like, he looks a lot like Freddy Krueger in this movie.
That's right, except no sweater. Just all flash. All flash. Anyways, I just wanted to note... with all all due respect to our host and his and his loves here um this movie everybody this movie precedes scream by two years just want to put that out there yeah because a lot of people celebrate scream and rightly so and rightly so but this this film was doing some really cool meta stuff as well two years and this wasn't the first horror film to do that either it just wasn't well known
That's true. The Scream set a standard that other – for the industry that other films saw and picked up on because Scream did so well. Yes, that's true. But I just – I lament a little bit, and believe me, I'm no – freddy fan but i do lament how how much this film gets completely overlooked and eclipsed by screen uh that's probably yeah that's probably true but i but i will say jay that
This film also is. Celebrated by a lot of horror fans that aren't necessarily Nightmare on Elm Street fans, me included. I look at it as kind of like Halloween 3. A lot of horror fans love that movie, even though it's not a very good movie. So it has some sort of cult following, which I think those same fans look at this movie. I think it's a large crossover and the same thing because a lot of fans have the same –
you know, the same thoughts about Freddy Krueger that you and Dave Z have, right? Oh, well, we're sick of him being so humorous and this turned into a comedy and it's not scary anymore. And this trench coat is going to make him scary. Well, if I may, I don't know that Dave Z and I ever said he was humorous. He tried. They tried to make it humorous, but I thought he was pretty funny.
I don't know. I don't just the one time he was making fun of the dude with the deaf guy. Yeah. Yeah. That was because it was so terrible and monstrous of him to do that. But. You know, that was funny in some sense. But anyways, back to this film. I yeah, I think I ended up catching up with this like two years after it was out. And I forget why, because I was. More than over Freddy, right? Yeah. Yeah. So it was like circa 1996, I'm guessing. But I loved that.
Of course, the anything like self-referential and the meta aspect that always excites me a great deal. And I know that for some people, it's just the gimmick. Well, let me ask you this. Did you see this that you say you saw it two years later? Probably. Yeah, probably. And you may not remember this, but do you know if you saw this before or after Scream?
Because this would probably mean a lot more to you if you saw it after Scream. Yeah, I honestly don't remember. I probably – I'm guessing I saw it before Scream, but this is all conjecture. But I just want to – Put out there, though, I love how what I appreciate about this film is they sort of they sort of take the horror concepts that are in the film, like not wanting to fall asleep.
So early in the film, we get the husband driving back and he cannot fall asleep. He does not want to fall asleep because he's driving. And if he does fall asleep while driving, then that could potentially be perilous and deadly to him. And so I love that's one just one little example where it's like, oh, cool. So we actually have a real reason you don't fall asleep or you die. And that's driving. Jay, that's been in like three of the movies.
So it's cool. And yeah, he fell asleep and he died. But he also we also saw the Freddy. Well, first of all, there is a gratuitous crotch scene in that. You still have this dude's crotch for a while. I know Jessica was probably having fun over there with that. I didn't even notice. Jessica's to the point now where she doesn't even notice crotches, CJ. How the world has affected her.
Well, what I was noticing is you got the claw. No pun intended, but she's been hardened to the crotch shot. The crotch shot. I'm so stupid. What I noticed was – Yeah, but the claw came up, right, and it slashed him in the chest, which we saw his dead body had the slash marks. That's true. So it's not like it was like he fell asleep at the wheel.
And then crashed and died. Freddy played a role or the demon posing as Freddy played a role. That's fine. But I appreciated the fact that it's not like, oh, I can't fall asleep here. I'm going to be. you know, attacked by a dream demon. It's like, no, you mean like what happened later on in the film with Miko Hughes? Yeah. Yeah. There are real reasons. There are real reasons.
Why in real life, why we shouldn't fall asleep or we could potentially die. So that's kind of why that's why I don't sleep. Right. Do you not sleep? Are you are you an insomniac like Mr. Watson? I don't sleep because I'm a fan of Freddy and I know what might happen when you sleep. There's no point to it. This is not true. He does have trouble sleeping, but it's not. I don't know that he's up all night every night. Because of Freddy. No, you're not.
I've decided in the past couple of years I must be borderline narcoleptic. So of all of us, I would be the first guy to go to Freddy. I know that. Or what would happen is Freddy would use you as a conduit and kill the rest of us because you keep falling asleep. Yeah, yeah. And then what would end up happening is we'd have to have a conference where we're going to murder you so you can't get the rest of us killed. Okay. Well, that works too.
But, like, for example, there are other cool things in here, too. I mean, there are so many cool things to appreciate. But I like how there was a riff on the Jaws 2 tagline just when you thought it was safe to get back in bed. I like I love that. Like, that's really cool stuff. Well, there's actually more claws out of the bed in this film, I think, than the rest of them as well. Yeah, he's in Nancy's bed a couple of times. He comes to the kid's bed.
The cloths come up through the kid's bed once or twice. Yeah. And what about that? I mean, the fact that – see, I was a little torn. This time I revisited this today, of course, in preparation for this discussion. As did I. Yes. Good. And I was a little torn because. There's a side of me where, you know, children in peril in a horror movie is something I really love because as a as a father, I mean, that's very scary to me. But at the same time.
Sometimes in this movie, I hate to say it, you guys, but it is a little tiresome. Yes. No, that is in my notes, buddy. Like I'm with you on this. I agree. I think Mikko Hughes was a great child actor, and I think what he does in this film is really good for him, especially compared to the rest of the cast, which I'll talk about later. But I really thought it was a lot. It was a lot of him.
right screaming and and throwing little tantrums and the only one that really worked was the one where he was on the play set that was that was creepy And I think a lot of a lot of this was just, oh, we'll take this kid and have him be creepy like he was in Pet Sematary. Right. Yeah. It's Gage all over again. Right. But like, didn't it make you think when he's climbing up.
to the top of that that play thing didn't you think what is it with this kid and the parents never watching him in these movies i mean that's why like you know he wanders out into traffic or all the rest of the parents are moving their kids away and not notifying the other lane camp that her child is on top of a giant place at like 20 feet, 30 feet in the air.
And we had those – so that thing that he – that place that he climbed up, we actually – I actually had one of those. Not me personally, but they – when I was in elementary school, one of my elementary schools had that as part of their playground set. That little tower, that little rocket thing in the very top area, you know, where he climbs up to the very top area before he opens the window and climbs up to the very, very top, which that should be bolted, by the way. Right.
Like that was the area where the sixth graders hung out. You can't get up there. They would kick your ass. Yes. Yes. You guys, you want to hear a cool Miko Hughes story? Tell it. So. This is 10 years ago now, maybe 11, 12 years ago. I was volunteering at the Famous Monsters, one and only horror convention they ever had.
Current owner – I think he's still the current owner. He may have sold it. The then owner revitalized the brand and bought the rights to the magazine and all that. He wanted to have a convention. He had one in Indianapolis. I volunteered because my girlfriend at the time was the head of the – he had tapped into her to be the head of all the volunteers. So she was kind of in a role there.
I show up on Friday, the day the convention, a couple hours before the convention starts, and I walk into the hotel and Miko Hughes walks in right next to me. He's like 26, 27 at this point. Looks exactly the same, only a little bit taller. So we both walk down the hallway. My I walk up to my girlfriend at the time and Mikko's right next to me.
And she looks at me. She goes, hey, I need you to go to this place. Talk to this lady. She has something that we need you to do. She looks at Miko and she goes, and you I need you to go over to the main area. We have some tables need to be set up. And he just has a lost look on his face. He just goes. I'm Miko Hughes. And she was like, oh, my God, I'm so sorry. It was hilarious.
You're like, what, Miko? You can't help out around here, you little diva. Are you too good to start setting up vendor tables? Let's go, buddy. Yeah, I mean, oh, okay, Tom Cruise. No, I'm just kidding. No, he was I said at his table for a while a week and he's a he's a pretty cool dude. But overused, I think, in this film, too, is a lot a lot of him and a lot of Heather.
Yes, yes. And while we're on the subject, since you know all these people, how does Heather Langenkamp strike you as a person? Does she seem pretty nice? Let me tell you this about Heather. So my main – the first time I tried to meet Heather, there was a bunch of the Nightmare on Elm Street alumnus in the same room, and I went around, got everybody, and she was my last person because she always had her and –
Robert had the longest lines, of course. Of course. So it took me a long time to get Robert's autograph. And I got in line for her. There was probably like six, seven, maybe ten deep. And one of the volunteers at that particular convention comes up to me and is like, hey.
we're cutting off the line right here like you gotta go i'm like literally she's the only person in this room who i haven't got their autograph uh and she's like well sorry we're cutting off you gotta go so i didn't get her autograph the first time and then the second time when i finally did meet her and finally did get her autograph It was literally like I was the very last person and she had to run off to some sort of film premiere that they were having that she was in or something.
So it was a real quick like, hi, sign. Here you go. Thanks for the money. So I've never really got to talk to her. Oh, bummer, man. OK, just one. So I don't I don't have an answer for that question. I'm undecided. She seems like a nice lady. I can't say she's not. The camera loves her, I feel. Do you think? I adore I can't even tell you this is weird and I'm not trying to be a creeper. I think she looks really good in this film. In this film, I think she looks tremendous. But I always felt like.
You know, I don't think I would get along with that woman in real life because she strikes me. She strikes me. No disrespect, but she strikes me as a little bit of a Karen or could be a Karen type of person. But but aren't we all? I don't I've not heard that story from people who have met her. So good, good, good. Everybody says she's pretty nice. I don't really have an experience with her. I will say this. I don't enjoy her acting style. Yes, yes.
I just don't. I didn't enjoy it in one. I didn't enjoy it in three. And I didn't I really didn't enjoy it in this movie. I thought the acting overall in this movie was really bad. So for Miko, he was like the best. Hmm. Hmm. What do you think, Jessica? I was just going to say that I thought that they should have had Miko be a lot quieter. I did not like all the screaming. Yeah.
This is annoying. Like, it's not scary. Like, I think with kids, to make them creepy, it's better when they don't say anything. Like, you know, in the Pets Motary movie. how he's like sneaking around you know what i mean uh and cuts what's uh the neighbor's fred win leg right Like, that was super creepy. But, like, with just the screaming almost. Yeah, and I don't think it was any fault of Miko's. No, no, no, no, no. Let me ask you this, though, Jay, because...
Jessica's like, I think kids should be seen and not heard. Join us next week for a spinoff podcast where three middle-aged people complain about children. Listen, I was not like that as a kid either. It's just that... Like kids are going to scream. That's how kids are. They just scream. Sometimes they scream for no reason, whatever. Jessica, you're like in your fifties and you scream all the time. I do. Yeah. So, but when you're trying to.
make a movie where the kid is supposed to be scary, the screaming just gets irritating after a while rather than being scary. Let me ask you this, Jay. Because Jessica and I combined have less children than you. Okay. Anything times zero is zero. And I have two that I know of. Right. That you know of. At least.
I have zero that I know of, and Jessica has zero that she knows of. She might have a couple running around she doesn't know about. No. That's not how that works. I would remember a pregnancy, you idiot. Well, let me ask you this, Jay, because maybe we're dismissing the point. Like if your kid just starts randomly screaming for no reason, is that very frightening? Because like, I don't know what's happening to my kid. Is he dying? What's happening?
Yeah, that was one thing I was going to underscore about this is, and I will say this as a parent. One of the scariest things in parenthood is when there is something wrong with your kid and you don't know what it is and the doctors don't exactly know what it is. So that taps into another facet of horror in this movie.
But again, it's a little tiresome. It was a lot in this movie. It was a lot. If it had been pulled back a little bit, it may have been more effective. Because every scene was just him screaming. Right. And her trying to figure out what was happening. I mean, this isn't exactly the same thing, Jay, but this person was saying that their child had something very strange like you.
A food wouldn't be this color. It was like a blue color in their mouth. Or like their spit or something was that color. And they were freaking out trying to figure out what the child had eaten. And she was like running around the house. Blueberry cereal. Like she's thinking Tide Pods, which can literally kill you. Yes. Like she's running around the house looking.
around at everything that the child could have possibly eaten so yeah i mean i could see that like if you your child doesn't feel well or something like that happens where you think they put something down their throat that's not food and you try to figure out what it is do you do you know when i think that was done best is um in the beginning the early stages of the exorcist film that oh
that's done very well in that it's like what is wrong with my kid uh oh you know and they're like trying to figure it out and they put her through all those tests yeah absolutely yeah yeah and she's doing all those weird things sure that makes sense so let me ask you guys this because i had a thought in when i was watching this this time and i've seen this movie i don't know half a dozen times it's not when i come back to frequently but
Do you think it would have worked better as more of a love letter to the rest of the franchise? Because I feel like they kind of tried to do that and they really kind of half-assed it. How so, though, Ron? Like, what do you mean more of a love letter? More Easter eggs to various movies of the franchise, not just the one that Wes Craven was involved with. I mean, because, you know.
Tuesday night makes an appearance in this film. She was Kristen in Nightmare on Elm Street 4. She makes a cameo appearance. More stuff like that. Maybe some of the other actors popping up in cameo roles. Maybe some mentions here and there of things that happen in those other movies. Because, I mean, in the movie, it makes it quite clear that all six of the other movies have been made. It's not pretending like only the first one was made. Right. Well.
For me, I wouldn't have done anything for me personally because I'm not really a huge fan, but maybe maybe a fan. Well, but if it's like watching this film, like, say, for example, this time, Jay, you've watched the other six films for this retrospective. It would have hit maybe better, you know, because now you've seen them all. At least you've seen them all recently. Yeah. Well, as we're recording this, though, we recently had a discussion among our our crew or somewhere.
I podcast so much these days, Ron. I don't know when what is said. But some people were complaining that – you know these little member berries and these references are annoying and distracting to them And for me, I appreciate them if they're organically slipped in where it doesn't stick out like a sore thumb. So. So, yeah, I guess I would have definitely appreciated it if it weren't blatantly like, hey, look at this member, this member, you know.
like that well i mean in today's in today's uh culture it's all about the easter eggs in The stories usually aren't strong enough, but it's like, hey, look at these cool Easter eggs you put in here. I know if the story is not good enough, Easter eggs should enhance your product. It shouldn't be the product. You know, so if you watch like a Star Wars or a Marvel.
You know, it's all about like, for example, the Deadpool movie that this came out. You can go through it and pick out, you know, 500 Easter eggs to other things that are happening. But if the story isn't interesting enough, the main story, the main characters, then who gives a shit? Right. But that's just today's culture. Back in 94, that wasn't an issue. I just thought maybe as a celebration of the entire franchise, it might have for me, it might have worked better anyway.
I don't know. Do you guys think the meta aspects of this really worked? Yes, I do, except her conversation with Wes Craven, though. As much as I actually hear it or did you hear Wes Craven go? It's a little hokey. It's a little – it's done. I don't know. I don't know what the problem is with it. I was trying to put my finger on what was bothering me. It's an information dump is all it is.
It's definitely a lot of exposition, but it's also done – it's a tiny bit hokey or something. What's explaining the plot of the movie? Right, but I mean – yeah, maybe it's just – a little too, um, ham fisted perhaps too much. Yeah. I mean, And it's not like we weren't going to get Wes Craven. We got Robert Shea. We got a bunch of people from New Line Cinema playing themselves in the roles. We got Robert England as Robert England. We got John Saxon as John Saxon. So it wasn't like –
If Wes Craven wasn't in the film as himself, we would have been like, where the hell was Wes Craven at? You know, so that scene kind of had to be there. But also, you know, we need to know. It's pretty because it's like.
more than halfway through the film right and we don't really know the plot it's just been a bunch of scary things put together allegedly scary things put together and something's happening we don't know what it is and then you know three quarters of the way we find out what it is um It's an interesting concept. I don't know that it was effective. See, I felt like this time I realized something while watching this.
She has the babysitter, Julie, who's sort of, you know, a peer, another adult. But after the husband dies, there's no other adult to really bounce things off of. So we don't get a real good sense.
of um nancy's thought processes and stuff i mean she talks to john saxon at one point but but i i kind of wish there was an one of the other adult characters we we would hear a little more from nancy i think nancy was relegated to simply being well it's heather it's not nancy yeah that's what i meant heather yes heather thank you i i think heather was relegated to some just merely being a concerned mom and and you know which is important but i i wish he had been a little more actively
I don't even know how to put my finger on it. I'm not explaining it very well. Maybe Jessica can bail me out. Jessica cannot. I can tell you this from experience. Wow. I would have liked to have had that conversation between her and Robert Englund that never happened. Robert Englund is just kind of in there as an anomaly, like, hey, look, everybody, here's Freddy Krueger out of makeup. He doesn't really do anything in the film, and he disappears halfway through.
Apparently there was an explanation that got cut out of the script as to why he wasn't in the second half of the film. But I mean – and you have to have him in there. Like I get that because that's what you're doing. But I would have liked more from him. Oh, yeah. Like this one may have been better maybe if the demon was possessing him to become Freddy Krueger. Or – or what if –
You know, he and Heather were besties, right? Best friends. And he was trying to help her fight this demon. So you'd have Robert out of makeup.
fighting robert in makeup some that would have worked for me yeah it would have been interesting yeah but but no now let's just have the kids scream a bunch what do you think about that jessica what do you think about the meta aspects of this film yeah i mean that might have been cool to have him in more i didn't think about that you know um robert england and then like
And the story that got cut out was just he had a weird nightmare that Freddy Krueger was going to kill him. So he got freaked out and him and his wife left town. So it wasn't like there was a whole bunch more. It still felt like, well, we have to put Robert in here as Robert. Right. We'll do that for two scenes, and then he's going to be Freddy Krueger the rest of the way out. I thought it was really long, too.
Oh, I didn't think it was long. You didn't? It was almost two hours. Yeah, I didn't really – I guess because there was constant simulation, I don't know. I didn't – it didn't feel like that to me anyway. A lot of times when the movie is almost two hours, it does feel that way. Yeah.
Did you think, Jessica, did you think Freddy Krueger was scarier in this movie than he had been in the previous few films? I don't think so, because I remember when I watched this the first time, I was kind of just like, what is happening?
what are we doing why we change the makeup like that's the big argument that a lot of that the people who love this movie make oh he's so much scarier in this film than he was in the other i don't think so i don't think the makeup looks good all the idea is put a trench coat on him right It just was kind of like, why? And Jay, let me tell you this. The end scene of this, when he's chasing Miko Hughes through, I don't know, the sewers of hell or whatever that is.
Uh, he's spouting the one-liners like crazy, dude. Yeah. Well, okay. Let me just back up for a minute. I'm not ignoring that, what you said, because that's, that is annoying to me, but, um. I agree. I hate his makeup in this movie. It's my least favorite Freddie makeup. I'm sorry to say that. But but I love his. His demeanor, his attack, he has a ferocity in this, which I really appreciate. And so I do think he is somewhat scary in this movie.
I mean, listen, the scene where he's trying to eat Miko Hughes was so badly done. I was I was literally laughing at my screen. Like there was a really bad special effect that obviously wasn't moving, and Mikko Hughes, as a six-year-old or a seven-year-old or a five-year-old, however old he was, was just trying to force his head into some latex mask that they were making. It was all comical. Yeah. Well, I mean, if I had a budget to make a horror movie, I wouldn't be making it about a damn dream.
Dream demon. I'll just say. Well, and this and this alleged demon I'm using is what it is. This alleged demon is easily murdered by Heather Linkamp, not even a character in a movie, just an actress. And her six year old son, like literally he gets stabbed in the foot and shoved into a room and burned by fire, even though he's a demon from hell. And somehow this kills him.
One thing I would say about it is that his Freddie in this movie, like, you know, not just the way, like how he seems more, Jay said, ferocious or whatever. he's for the you know for the most part he's more serious if that makes sense like because i never liked the whole you know the first movie scared me I can't even tell you how bad that movie scared me. I mean, it really scared me bad. And then we go to like the next couple movies and it wasn't scary. Like there was no scare.
And he just was, like, you know, making fun of people and heckling people. Like, at the pool party in part two, he gets crazy. Like, where he's got all these one-liners. And I just always felt like they ruined. Well, that's a – I mean that's a common – I know. That's a common thought process that we have discussed throughout this retrospective. But the difference between Freddy the character and Freddy the demon in this one.
Is Freddy the character has to play with his food because he lives off. He gets strength from fear. Right. This Freddy does not. He's a demon. He just I don't even know why he went. I honestly don't even know why he wants to murder Miko or Heather. Well, Dylan or Heather, I mean, I don't if that was made clear, I didn't catch it, which is quite possible because he's evil. Ron. Yeah, I'm evil. I'm going to kill this actress in her. That's what evil does.
Well, like for another thing, Jay, that I brought up the Easter egg type thing for fans of the movie, like he kills Julie in the only the only real death scene in the whole film. which is a complete take on the killing of Tina in the first film. Yes. Yes. Which is fine. I mean, I think that scene is by far the best scene in the movie.
And I enjoy that Easter egg. That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about. You know, this little call. Yeah. Yeah, I like that. I like that a lot. And and they tried. I think they should have leaned into a little more. But Heather Langenkamp's reaction. to that i think i perceived that she noted in her mind her character mind the the similarity to the death in that film
I wish they would have leaned into it a tiny bit more. But yeah, I did love that. And let me ask you this. There's a there is a portion of this film right after that, actually, where Heather and John Saxon. fall into their roles as Nancy and Donald Thompson from the first film. Yes. What the fuck is that all about? I don't know. I didn't understand that either. I thought maybe you guys were going to come on here. It was kind of cool, I think, but it didn't fit in the story at all. I don't know.
I was going to be like feeling stupid because I didn't know what the hell that was. No, I think I understand that actually. Wes, and I'm not saying this is a good reason, but I think this is the reason. Wes Craven, I almost said Wes Anderson, that's hilarious. Wes Craven specifically asks her to play Nancy one more time. And so... So it is, according to Mr. Exposition, it is a requirement to get this handle on this demon thing.
is to have her step up to the plate, play Nancy one more time, and I guess not encapsulate, but to sort of capture within this story, within the narrative once again, this evil. By creating this little world. Well, let me add to that, Jay. I just thought of this while you were saying that perhaps that is perhaps that was the gateway. You know, her being Nancy was the gateway.
To going into the other world to confront him. Yeah, that's that's sort of what I think the film and what Wes Craven. Yes, Wes Craven was going for. I think that's the gist. And again. You know, I'm not saying that was a great idea, but that wasn't it wasn't particularly pulled off very well. Yeah. Yeah. I think every time I've seen that I've seen this movie, I'm always like, it's cool, I guess. But what what's going on? Yes.
But I like the way – the thing is – and this is the younger Jay of the Dead, much younger. I remember my initial – even though I was impressed with this film when I initially saw it, I was – a little underwhelmed by there not being a ton of Freddy in there. There's not a lot of, there's not a lot of Freddy Krueger in this movie. He's only in about the last 10 minutes. Yeah. And so.
I guess I could see where fans of the franchise would be disappointed in that aspect of it. But I but I think they were trying to build. I think Wes was trying to build a story. That would, I guess, support the weight of bringing a dream demon into this real life scenario. Well, and then so he has this like, you know, thought process where we're going to do, you know, we're going to make this highfalutin and we're going to have.
take this idea and it's going to be better than the traditional slasher realm, but then the movie just falls all the way back into all of its regular slasher tropes. Yeah. And like, don't fall asleep or somebody is going to die. And then this person is like, oh, it's Freddy Krueger. And that person is like, there is no such thing as Freddy Krueger that we've seen in every single film.
You said something there, Ron, I really liked. And I agree with you. I want to support what you said when you said that it seemed to be at first reaching for this highfalutin conceptual storytelling. And I think that's true because even. There's that scene where she's having the bedtime with her son and he starts asking all of these. religious philosophy questions like philosophy 101 um religion like a little kid is asking all this and i'm like yeah i think i think they're
I think Wes is trying to swing for some fences here and get a little more into this. But yeah, later on, ultimately, they have to kind of resort to this standard Nightmare on Elm Street. Moves, I think. I will say most of that comes after they reprise their roles of Nancy and her dad. Yes. So perhaps that's just.
Part of part of this. Well, I guess some of it happens before then. I say perhaps that's just part of the thing. You become you go into the horror movie again. And so now you're you know, you fall into all the old horror tropes, kind of like the movie Final Girls. Yeah. Yeah. But I guess it happens throughout the movie, though. So I guess that that theory doesn't hold water. All right. So.
You two are making me sad. You two are making me sad because I really wanted to. We make a lot of people sad all the time. I was I was I was just our existence makes people sad. I was I told. Ron and via text yesterday to bring his A-game today because I was really excited about showing up on here and telling everybody why this is a great movie.
And unfortunately, upon revisiting it this afternoon, I did. There were a number of things that were like, oh, well, yeah, I realized her lane camp doesn't know how to act. Well. I think she's adorable in this film, but I just – well, let me – a couple little shout-outs though. Don't you love – and by the way, Miko was in another movie, Pet Sematary, which did this. I love when movies – Disturb the dead. And I'm not talking about necrophilia, Jessica. Yeah, Jessica.
I'm talking about, yeah, the coffin scene, which there's one of those in Pet Sematary as well. But that was really cool and upsetting and disturbing. I think that's kind of neat. And then there is a second reference to the Jaws. We had a Jaws 2 reference and we have a first Jaws reference, and that is the Dolly Zoom. the famous jaws shot. They do one of those in this film as well. Yeah. There's a lot of weird cinematography in this film too. There's a lot of shaky cam.
um there's there's a scene at one point where she's in bed and like everything around her is just shaking and it's not one of the earthquake scenes and i'm wondering if that's the play on the earthquake stuff you know i'm saying I thought there was a lot of weird choices made cinematography wise. And I also think they missed an opportunity. You're talking about horror references. You have Mikko Hughes fresh off of Pet Sematary. It's not been that long.
I'm running on a busy highway. You don't put them in front of a truck for a callback. Yeah. All right. So. Anything else you want to say in defense of the film, Jay? Before we go to final thoughts? You're really... For the record, I watched the Cisco and Ebert review of this film, too. Oh, yeah. How did they feel about it? Ebert loved it. Siskel did not. Nice. That's my boy, Ebert. Yeah. I miss them. Ebert said it was very thought provoking.
And Siskel said it provoked no thoughts in me whatsoever. It's just a basic generic slasher film. That guy was annoying. Siskel, I mean. Yeah, I mean I'll probably – I'll probably come up with something in the final thoughts, but go ahead. But I will say this. In my research, I found out that Heather Leggenkamp is still married to the person she was married to at the time of this film.
And they had two children. Unfortunately, one of their children has passed away of brain cancer. Later in life, he was in his mid-20s, but still. That's terrible. I hate to hear that. Yeah. Because a lot of this – a lot of the script was pulled from things that have really – had really happened to Heather, like those phone calls, the stuff in the mail. She did have a stalker around this time. Yeah, when she was – what? Oh.
Was this one – because I thought they said that – I watched something about it too. I thought they said it was the stalker came from Just the Ten of Us. Yeah, from when she was on Just the Ten of Us. Okay. See that? Which Just the Ten of Us also had. Jay, see if you know this. Maybe you know too, Jessica. There were two other Nightmare on Elm Street franchise alums that were also part of the 10. I don't know.
I don't know. Who is the roach girl from part four? Oh, OK. One of the sisters. And then the girl who. was the bitch in the back of the bus in part two also was one of the sisters in that movie or that show. Okay. Yeah, I didn't know that. I remember that from when the show was on. I was like, oh, those Diamond and Elm Street people. Wow. Jessica, we will start with you. Final thoughts and ratings out of 10. How do you feel about Wes Craven's new nightmare, 1994?
Yeah, I thought it was too long. And I hated the end of it. I thought that whole thing in the boiler room slash hell, whatever the... That was so stupid. I didn't... Like they did the tongue thing, you know, where his tongue is trying to like suffocate her or whatever. And I don't know. It just was too much. But this Freddy's scarier. He's not comedic. Yeah, he is.
I did say that. It doesn't mean that I think it's a good movie. And I already said, like, I wasn't into all the screaming. I don't know. Like, I don't mind the meta stuff from Scream. I mean, I really like that movie is like one of the best horror movies ever, in my opinion. And I don't mind it there. I just.
this didn't work for me, or it just wasn't not my cup of tea. It certainly wasn't worse than, and I tried to say this earlier, and Ron must have thought I was trying to rate this movie, and I wasn't. It was not worse than Freddy's Dead. That movie was horrible. Stupid Roseanne was in it and Freddy was on a broom flying around like a fucking witch. It was so stupid. That's my favorite. Who ever wrote that?
I swear to god they must have dropped acid before they fucking wrote that script it was ridiculous five not good four is okay so this to me though is definitely better than five and dead. That's not how we rate movies around here, though. We rate them with numbers. I know that. I'm getting to that. Am I allowed to have my thoughts? Because I'm sure y'all will ramble on. Damn, Jay, she called you out. I know. I was talking to both of you. For me, I would say a five out of ten. I mean.
It's a mid-range for me, but it's not a terrible movie, but it is not my cup of tea. All right, Jay, your turn. Okay, well... I just keep wanting to say to people... it's like i want to push people back a little bit like you know how cops at a crime scene they're like okay everybody get back i want to push people back and be like look i'm not a big freddy fan
Anyway, I like if I were picking horror movies to watch for fun, I wouldn't be picking Freddy movies. But so having said that, though, I do. This is one of my. favorites of the franchise for sure. And it is almost entirely because of the meta aspects of it. Now, it is very difficult to pull that off. And yes, I agree that Scream, we all know, did a tremendous job. I think this this film is a little less effective at pulling it off. Like, for example, at the very end.
When they come out of everything and then all of a sudden there's the Wes Craven script. for this movie and it's like oh so i'll pick up and start reading this nightmare material to my son for his bedtime story which is of course is the how this it's the actual script for this film and how the film begins it's just like Why is that sitting there? Why would she pick it up? Why would she start reading? I don't care. I still love the fact that what is happening within the world of this film.
is also happening to Wes Craven, who is coming up with this screenplay for another Nightmare on Elm Street movie, which ends up being... essentially this movie, that's really neat to think about that. So for me, it's a seven out of 10 and I own it and I'm glad I do. So I, you know, I call this a buy. Well, I also own this film, Jay, mostly because it came with the box set with all the other Nightmare on Elm Street films. Yes. But I.
I don't think this is a great – I don't think this is very good. I don't think this is a good movie. I think Wes Craven shot for some things, and I think it missed, which I appreciate the fact that he was going – just like the second movie, right? I appreciate the fact that we're going for something else, but –
Something different, but it just didn't hit. There's a lot of stuff thrown in this movie, and it's kind of a mishmash of all of these ideas that don't end up gelling very well together at the end.
Especially when we get a demon who's so easily defeated. He's a demon. By fire. When you said that, I was dying laughing. I mean I get it. It's so true. It's two things. It's – they're already – hinted at it with the hansel and gretel thing at the in the first act so that's kind you kind of have to go there because of that but and also because
You know, in the storyline, Freddy Krueger became died in a fire. So I get it. But but come on, this is supposed to be a demon from hell, man. He turns into a demon right after after the fire starts. He's no longer Freddy anymore. He's a demon. That's like killing a water monster with, you know, a fire hydrant or fire hose. It's almost like aliens coming to a planet full of water when their only weakness is water. But anyway, that's a different movie.
Stop picking on him. He's got enough problems. There are some hints of good things here, but it just doesn't gel together. I do think this is an important movie. I think that this movie led to other things like Scream that we would get later on, like Cabin in the Woods, for example, because it showed that you could do this even though it wasn't a tremendous financial success.
I do think retrospectively horror fans appreciated it much more much later on. And this could be fans that were conditioned by Scream, you know, for these sorts of things. It's a 1994. We didn't really have a lot to go by in this realm. There were some hints here and there of meta stuff in other movies, but it wasn't the focus of the movie.
Like when Hulk Hogan shows up to beat the Gremlins up in Gremlins 2 because the film burnt out because they were messing with the projector. That's not the whole focus of that film. Right. Know what I'm saying? Right. So I do think it's an important film in that matter. I just don't think it's that good. And I don't foresee the next time I'll ever watch this again. I don't care for this particular version of Freddy Krueger. I don't like the makeup. I don't.
It's just so funny to me when people say all the time, well, he's so much more evil in New Nightmare. He's just so much more badass. They put a trench coat on him, man, and his makeup's worse. And he gets killed a lot easier than Freddy Krueger does in the other movies. He kills one person. Like, I don't know. I bet you I know why the people say that. And he's not as funny in this one, and I hate all the funny stuff, and then while he's chasing the child, all he's doing is buying off one-liners.
And no one can watch that scene with the elongated Freddy jaw and not think it's funny. It's so poorly done in 1994. We had better special effects back then, kids. Also, I think contributing to the financial downfall of this film, that's the same year The Crow came out. And instead of watching a rehash of Freddy Krueger, I watched the crow 22 times in the theater. Did you see the 2024 crow? Cause I saw it last night. No need for me to see that movie.
Not great. Five out of ten. Not great. Five. You still gave me five out of ten. I'm giving this a four and a half out of ten. Oh. I think, you know, it's watchable, whatever. You could watch it and be fine and get your Freddy Krueger fix. It's just not good. It's not the worst movie in the franchise by any stretch. And it makes sense in the franchise, unlike the second movie. Storyline wise.
It really sits outside the franchise. Honestly, you could just run those first six movies, five of the first six movies, and have a cohesive story without the second one or this one. Why do you always want to cut out my favorite ones? Because you like weird shit, Jay. Yeah. I always got to like weird shit. I don't know. So now that we have successfully discussed.
Wes Craven's new nightmare and turn half the fan base against me. Oh, they were already against me. Probably. I know. I know. I know this is like, you know. A horror, a horror favorite, just like Halloween three. But I don't know. Watch it again, kids, and see what you think. I have some trivia, just like all the other shows. I have like five pieces of trivia here. You guys want to try to tackle these? Yes. Ready, Jessica? Yeah.
And there's no points or anything, so don't feel like you have to compete. So in the original script for New Nightmare, Wes Craven's character was presented much differently. How did Wes Craven write himself into the original script? As Wes Anderson. Not as Wes Anderson. Sorry. I had no idea. Instead of living in a giant mansion with all the amenities he could have, Wes Craven was down on his luck.
He mostly because he's being haunted by Freddy Krueger living in a van that was driven by Michael Berryman from The Hills Have Eyes. Nice. And at one point. He was going to have sliced his eyelids off. Oh, which is an idea that he had for the Nightmare on Elm Street franchise from the first movie that never got put in any of the movies.
He decided it was better for his image if he didn't do that. They'd made that change. Oh, yeah. Trivia question number two. What did Mikko Hughes get to take home from this movie as a souvenir? Oh, I know. I think I know, but I'll see if Jessica gets it before me. Go ahead, Jess. The Freddy Claw? Not the Freddy Claw. The T-Rex.
He may have taken the T-Rex, but that's not what was mentioned. The playground that he plays in in this movie was built just for the movie. And they were going to destroy it. And his parents, who were on set, said, you know, we got a lot of land where we live. And they said, well, you can have it. So he got the playground, the entire playground. Wow.
That's a cool little souvenir. I wish I had known that when I talked to him. I'm like, hey, where's that playground at, man? Yeah. Ron and Ashley go play on it. Here's one. According to the end credits of the movie, who played Freddy Krueger? I did not read that. Neither did I. Any guesses? How was it not Robert? It's Freddy Krueger as himself. Which we all know is.
Robert England. Come on. We don't. I mean, we don't know what happens with that movie set. He disappeared halfway through the movie. You know what happened to him? But are they trying to say that the name of the demon was Freddy Krueger? I know that Wes said he likes playing. He likes the Freddy Krueger concept. Maybe he legally changed his name.
Just kind of like meet Joe Black becomes death becomes Joe Black. Just like Jay. Your real name is Jason Piles. But when you're on public, everyone just calls you Jay of the dead. That's right. That's what's on your license now. That's right. I see. Fourth question. What was the working title for this film? Was it? Where is that called? Let me find it. I got to find it. That's my favorite quote in this movie. Screw your pass.
No, it was not called Screw Your Pass. It was called Nightmare on Elm Street 7, The Ascension. Oh. Like anybody would have guessed that. Well, I mean, you can just research it and find out. That's how I did it. Let me just say, in case people don't get this joke, the reason the screw your past line is so hilarious because Ron has commented on Heather's performances. In this film, especially the way she delivers that line is really funny. I laughed out loud because it's like, hmm.
I may have had her do another take on that. I would have had her do another take on that several of her lines, but that's just me. Last trivia question. The character of Julie was originally written. And aspects of this are still in the film as a completely different kind of character. What was her original role in the movie? I don't know. His her the husband's mistress or something.
Not the husband's mistress, although she was an attractive lady. I don't know. Julie was originally supposed to be a on-world avatar for the demon Freddy Krueger. Like he was going to be controlling her. Oh, interesting. Her death was going to be more of like, you served your purpose, I no longer need you.
See, I wondered about that when she kept showing up dealing with the kid and stuff, because I remember like back when I first saw this, I remember thinking that she was going to be on the side of evil. And I bet you. Well, they kept it in there on purpose as a red herring. Yes, yes, yes. That's really cool. Well, there you go. That is our coverage of.
Wes Craven's A New Nightmare from 1994. We still have one more movie left in this franchise, and we're getting a giant hockey goalie to come along for the ride in the next film. I am your host, Fred Head Ron Martin, and on behalf of Jay of the Dead, Dave, Dr. Shock Becker, the Gill Man, Joel Robertson, Mr. Watson. Dr. Walking Dead, Kyle Bishop, the Southern Gentleman, Greg Amortis, Macula, Dave Z, and for this movie, Little Miss Horner, Jessica Feeney.
We all want to thank you for listening to Jay of the Dead's new horror movies, the horror podcast where Jay beats us if they go off script. Hello everyone and welcome to Day of the Dead's New Horror Movies, the podcast where we haunt not only your nightmares, but your cornfields as well. My name is Fred Head Ron Martin and with me today...
is the man who once tranquilized me and stole me away in the back of a van to a very salty lake, Mr. J of the Dead. Yes, I thought you signed that NDA on that. NDAs are not credited in courts. I think we've learned that over the years. Okay, that's true. Well, thank you for having me here on this, Ron. And I'd just like to point out that as a...
As the resident non-Freddy fan around here, I have wanted to support Ron and show my love for him and his appreciation for this franchise. And I believe I have been here for every single... franchise review for this you have and i hope you have found a new appreciation for the franchise i don't know if you have or not but when you say jay and we have another guest here i'm gonna get to just a second but when you say you're not a fan of freddy
I take that and maybe I'm taking it to mean something differently. Like I'm taking that to mean you understand his place. um in the pantheon of horror films and horror icons and give him his due you're just not it's just not your kind of movie yes thank you that was um You can tell Ron Martin is my PR guy. He was just saving me a lot of grief from the community. But no, that's exactly how I feel. I appreciate and recognize.
That he is much beloved. But yeah, he's not my cup of tea personally. Yes. Right. There's plenty of horror franchises that aren't my favorite. They're not my thing. I don't like the Paranormal Activity franchise, for example. But I understand its place within the horror genre, and I understand why people do like it. Yeah, sure. I mean, I was going to say Saw just under your skin, Jay. There's enough of the Saw that I do like.
Good. That it kind of reaches on another level. I just like to bash it. I like to gaslight you. I love it. I love that. And not the only of the dead we have with us today. With us as well, a man who one day hopes to participate in a cornfield rave, Mr. Spawn of the Dead. Hi, guys. And I do not want to be in a cornfield. That's just because you've never been in a cornfield. You guys don't have corn out there.
Not really. We don't. Listen, one block away from me right now is a cornfield. Ooh. Nice. And every day I walk by it, I always look in there and, well, two things. One, if I'm doing my walk, I... I'm old, so that's how I get exercise these days. And I have to use the restroom. It's a good place to hide away and just take a quick leak. Do you ever run into Shoeless Joe in there? Yeah, Shoeless Joe.
I don't, but I have a great idea for a B-horror movie that would probably be pretty bad. You guys ready for this? Yeah. Here's the teaser trailer, right? There's a cornfield, and suddenly you just see... A red balloon pop up from the middle of the corn and then another and then another. And we have clowns of the corn. Oh, nice.
And then you could have a tagline that's like, you'll pop too. Oh yeah, because corn. And popcorn. And balloons. And balloons pop. That's right. Did I ever tell you, Ron, my theory? You probably didn't hear it. My theory on what that that whole you'll float to refers to that you have heard it. Well, if you're no, no, I have not heard it. But if you're one of the new directors of the new movies.
who are completely incompetent, then you take that to be literal. And there will be children floating in the air for no reason. Right. Well, there is a reason. Well, that's what I want to address. You think you know the reason, Spawn? I know why they float, and I have a theory on why they say that phrase. I mean, you know why the kids are floating in the new It movies? I do know why. Why? Because the words are, you'll float too. Because the dead eye.
It makes them float. The dead lights? Dead lights, yeah. Okay. Sorry. So you think there's something about the dead lights that make them float? Well, yeah. Spawn, that's off a week. Off a week. Well. Okay, you know what's also off a wink is that Pennywise is from a galactic space turtle that floated around before the universe. Obviously, Spawn, you have not read the entire...
the entire Dark Tower books and all of the books that it encompasses. That's where that comes from. I was busy watching good horror movies. Not if you're watching It 2017, brother. Sorry. This guy, Ron, he doesn't know. What a stickler he's on the horn with here. Ron is a very fact-based guy. Yeah. So buckle up. But anyway, I just want to throw this at you guys.
Get this, Ron. This occurred to me while podcasting with Dr. Walking Dead. Sometimes Kyle's brilliance like wafts on to me. Oh, that's good. I'm waiting for it to waft on to me. OK, so what happened was. I'm like, where in the heck does that come from, that whole you'll float to, you'll float to, what's going on? And what I figured out is in 1931, Frankenstein. Remember the little girl who's a child? She ends up drowning. Spoiler issue. Frankenstein.
And spoilers for a movie that's 80 years old. She was floating and dead. That's right. And so maybe when Pennywise is saying that, he's referring to the fact that just like that child floated dead. You'll float too. I mean, that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense because where does Pennywise live? He lives in the sewer. What else is in the sewer? Like a river of sewage water. So you're going to float on top of the water when you're dead. Yes.
So that makes sense, but it's also an allusion to the balloon, right? So – Yeah. I mean – Newsflash, guys. I don't know if you guys realize this. Stephen King is a genius. Imagine that. Yes, but you love – you love, right, the tie-in with – Frankenstein. I mean, that's pretty cool, I think. I mean, I think it's a good use of imagery to prove your point. Yes. OK, thank you. Only, unfortunately for her, it was it was not sewage water. It was just like a pond. Yes.
Spawn, have you seen Frankenstein 1931? Yeah. Of course. Now you're watching good horror films. You think I am some kind of neglectful father around here? What is this? Come on. All right, so before we get more sidetracked, without further ado, let's get into this episode. You are listening to Jay of the Dead's new horror movies, where we take our fire and water safety seriously. Burn your friends. Burn everyone.
And this is the conclusion of our retrospective on a Nightmare on Elm Street franchise because it is the final movie in the franchise. There are no more. Nothing else exists. Nothing else happened. Freddy Krueger has never been on the screen ever again. Right, Jay? Well, however, let me just say, out of love and respect for Ron's wishes, yes, we did not for this under Ron's tutelage cover.
Any other types of Freddy movies, but we had hitherto for prior to this recorded something earlier this year. Actually, two little tidbits that I have been saving and it will release after this episode or after Ron's over. Are you doing an overview episode, Ron? Undecided. OK, well. Either way, it will be following Ron's vision of how this should wrap up. And then we'll have a little bonus for people who want to hear other Freddy stuff. Well, I will say this as as the.
A creator and only person on every single episode of the Resurrection of Zombie 7 podcast, which was a franchise podcast. Our general rule on franchises were that remakes were not part of the franchise. That starts a new franchise. That's fair. That's fair. It's not a continuous part of the storyline. That's also fair. And some people may say that same role would apply to New Nightmare.
But I don't think so. Like I think it's just a different story that takes place in a different – just kind of like the Marvel multiverse, right? It just takes place in a different time period. I'll totally I totally do not argue with your logic on that. It's just like for me, I just can't. I feel incomplete if we're going to talk about Freddie a bunch. It's like.
Well, I think – Jay, just before we came on air, you said I completed you. You do complete me, but I'm just saying that I feel like there is another great Freddie performance. I know not everybody agrees, and not everybody's even seen that movie. I've seen Freddy Krueger hosting his show on MTV. I've seen that one. That's a great performance.
Anyway, Jackie Earl Haley, I love that dude. And if you've seen Little Children, it all makes sense to me. It all makes sense why you would cast him for such a role. Anyways, go ahead, sir. I've not seen that movie, but from my understanding, the casting of Freddy Krueger is the least of its concerns. I actually love that movie, and that's the truth. I'm not even exaggerating. I love it because it takes that dead serious tone that I really want this franchise to have, Ron. I know you hate fun.
That's right. I'm glad to learn through a couple of podcasts with him that Spawn does not share your hatred of fun. No. Hatred of what? Fun. Fun. Your dad hates fun. Oh, that's sad. Yeah.
i like fun but yeah this guy here he even likes some some comedy horror stuff so so watson's got me talked into showing him psycho gore man this guy's gonna love that i think okay Regardless, we are celebrating 40 years of your favorite nightmare slasher, Mr. Freddy Krueger, as he battles the other half of the most famous 80s slashers, Jason Voorhees and Ronnie Yu's 2003 film Freddy.
versus Jason, perhaps the most anticipated film of slasher, 80 slasher fans of all time. So a little bit about this movie. It's been around in some form. You guys want to guess? When it was first brought up to possibly do. Ooh. Yeah. Take a stab at it, huh? Was it as early as 1985? You're a little early. 1987. Okay. Paramount first went to New Line Cinema when they were still owned by two different companies.
And said, hey, let's make a let's let's just bring home a whole bank full of money and put these two characters together. So it's been around. It's been being tossed around at that point in some form since 1987. Anything from the time period of Jason takes Manhattan and Freddy's dead all the way up to when this movie was released could have been Freddy versus Jason. Like we didn't have to have Freddy's dead. We could have had Freddy versus Jason. But instead, New Line decided to go with.
Freddie's dead. Right. It's a very long and complicated journey to get to this film with dozens of directors, dozens of writers and executives from both companies, but mostly New Line because New Line eventually bought. the rights to Jason Voorhees, but not Friday the 13th. So it's a long and complicated journey with a lot of names involved. I'm not going to get into all of that. Just know that this has always been an active idea since 1987. Even when a new nightmare bombed, even when.
Jason was no longer relevant in the late mid to late 90s. This was still on the table because they thought, you know, hey, this is our last chance to make a lot of money off of these characters. Yes. And the people who have. Glance to the project is basically a who's who in the horror genre. And in the early 2000s, both franchises having been somewhat dormant since 1994. I know Jason X came out in 2001.
There's only the one movie since 1994. And that one was pretty panned, I think, critically and by fans, although I don't hate it. I don't hate it either, but it. It does seem, it is shocking that that ever got greenlit. I mean, it's a joke waiting to happen, right? Jason in space. Yeah.
Yeah, it is. But still, I'm just saying it's it's kind of a cinematic oddity, the fact that it exists at all. But I thought the story to get him in space was fine. But that's that's another podcast for another time. Yes. The ideas that was in the script for a long time included a cult of Freddy dubbed Fred heads resurrecting their spiritual leader only to do battle with Jason. There was some.
controversy over who would actually win the battle if there would actually be if there would actually be a winner As we know with the Friday the 13th franchise now, there's a lot of intricacies when it comes to copyright ownership, when it comes to character ownership. If you're wondering why the last few –
Jason Voorhees movies have don't have Friday the 13th in the title. It's because it's a copyright issue. So in the early 2000s, New Line finally pulled the trigger for good. They lured around you into directing. And working with screenplay that combined elements of both franchises and I think the practicality and meta references that had become commonplace in horror in the late 90s, early 2000s.
Casting-wise, of course, there's no choice for anyone to play Freddy Krueger other than Robert Englund. But New Line, and depending upon which source you want to believe, particularly Ronnie Yu, wanted to recast. Jason Voorhees, which was originally supposed to be played by Kane Hodder, who played Jason in part seven through Jason X and is like a fan favorite. Right. For Jason, even though.
The only really bad Jason films are the ones that he's in, unfortunately for him. That is unfortunate because I think he's a great Jason Voorhees portrayer. I agree, and I – the reason that I – tend to believe is Ronnie you wanted the bigger dude to play Jason like listen Kane I've met Kane Hodder several times I've been on an elevator with him I'm pretty sure he almost got me killed by Danny Trejo at one time he's a big dude
I love that story. He's like 6'3", 6'4", and he's muscle-bound. I mean, he's getting older now. We're all getting a little older. But we're talking about 2001, 2002, Kane Hodder. Yeah. Ronnie Yu allegedly – I say allegedly because it's not for sure. He denies this, but everything I can see kind of points to this. One of the – an actor who was larger to –
show the difference between Jason and Freddie and stature. Because Robert Ingram's a really skinny guy. Robert Ingram's 5'9", same height as me. So they cast Ken Kersinger, who played... uh jason's stunt double uh he's on a couple of scenes i should say it's not double because kane harder is a stunt guy
He was in a couple of scenes and Jason takes Manhattan and actually got killed by Jason and Jason takes Manhattan. So the second time Jason has killed the person who played him. By the way, I love this dude in this role. I think he's tremendous. I like him as Jason. Yeah, I think he's great. But I think for me personally, one of the reasons that I'm a Freddy guy and I'll preface this for what we talked about at the beginning of this episode. I've not seen anyone else play Freddy Krueger.
I just think Robert England brings something to the role that if anybody else had done it, it wouldn't be as successful. I love Kane Hodder. Don't get me wrong. I love a lot of dudes that play Jason. I've been stuck on an elevator with CJ Graham before. What about Derek Mears? I've met Derek Mears, yeah. He's a huge dude. He is probably my favorite Jason performance, physicality-wise. Honest to goodness, I love his performance.
So I listen. Here's a little Derek Mears story for you. Here's a little side story. When I met Derek Mears, he's a gigantic man. Yes. Bigger than Kane Hodder. And he has that disorder where he can't grow hair. Right. Mm hmm. Um, so I got his autograph and I told a story. We went to see that Friday the 13th reboot, me and my girlfriend at the time who became my ex-wife.
on valentine's day because it was my turn to pick a movie yeah and she got really scared as she was want to do and then we told that story to derrick mirrors and she was like you really scared me and then like so he's He stood up and was like – he was very nice. He was like, oh, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry that you got scared on Valentine's Day. But by him standing up, he's so large that she jumped back.
No kidding. I told him, I said, you should not be apologizing for being scary. That's your job. Yeah. But he's just a super nice guy. So, you know, that was a reaction or whatever. Oh, so he's a sweetheart of a man. Yes. In the one minute, you know, transaction, I think he was. OK. Outside of Freddie and Jason, this film is cast with a bunch of people you don't know with Kelly Rowland probably being the most famous. Oh, I don't know about that. I mean – Are you forgetting, Scott?
Farkas. Listen, let me finish my sentence, Jay. Forgive me. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. This is the sentence I wrote. Kelly Rowan is probably the most famous person in the cast. That includes Scream King Catherine Isabel and Jason Ritter. With the possible exception of Zach Ward. Scott Farkas. That's right. Who? Here's my Zach Ward story. Who? I actually bought my copy of Never Sleep Again from Zach Ward. Did you? I did. That's so cool.
Wow. I was kind of surprised that he had it at his table. I'm like, bro, you're in like Freddy versus Jason for about two minutes. But I'll take it. Yeah. That's excellent. I'm impressed. So Spawn, are you picking up on the fact here that – I love how Spawn has been just absolutely silent of the fact that you basically said you've met – several of the dudes who've played Jason Voorhees, as well as Scott Parker. I've met them all. I've met them all.
So you've met all of them. Did you not see my pictures from Father of the 13th? Well, no, it's just that you hadn't mentioned the others just then. So I'm just saying. But I have no doubt you've met. And I've met Robert Englund. Yes. Several times. So yeah, so he has met a ton of these horror celebrities. In this movie, I've met Zach Ward. I think he's the only other one in this movie I've met. No Monica Kina, huh?
Now, this movie doesn't do a lot of like horror convention reunions for some reason. They should because these guys aren't these guys aren't killing it. I mean, they're not so famous. They shouldn't be doing horror films. They should be doing they should get together and do a convention. Yeah.
I agree. I mean, Catherine Isabel's been at conventions. I've just never been at one with her. OK. And while she's, you know, she's horror famous, she's not on the same level as Kelly Rowland or Zack Ward, I don't think. But. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for me, I think Kelly Rowland's probably more famous just because from Destiny's Child. But right. And listen, you're not going to find a bigger Zach Ward.
supportive than I. But let's be realistic. Of course. Of course. I'm going to miss Jason Ritter because I think he's the only one in the cast that kind of went on to do some other things. And of course, I love his father. John Ritter was one of my favorite actors growing up. Yes.
And I thought he did a good job. I mean, come on. They're the body count gang, right? So you don't have to be a great actor to be a part of the body count gang. But I thought he did a good job considering that he was only cast in that role a week before shooting started. Yeah, not bad at all. So with all of that out of the way, all the production stuff out of the way, the final product.
I am not too big to admit the first two times I watched this film, both times in the theaters, I was elevated a little bit. So, of course. With that scenario, of course, I was in love with this movie. And then when I saw it the first time on a non-elevated level, I still very much enjoyed myself watching it. I probably watched this probably a dozen times, including today. Are you elevated all the rest of the time? I don't believe so. I don't believe so. You don't believe so? Okay.
Oh, Ryan. So with that being said, what were your first impressions of the movie, whether you saw it in 2003 when it came out in a theater, whether you rented it, or as in the case of Spawn, whether you watched it for the first time today? Is that for me then, are you asking me? I didn't see it in 2003. Okay, well then, I guess it's me. So, I've seen this a total of...
Two times. I cannot believe you've seen this 12 times. Oh, yeah. But anyways, for I think the first time obviously must have been for the horror movie podcast franchise review. It's got your boy in it. You love Jason, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, of course. But I mean, it just the thing is, my biggest complaint with this movie and.
and then i'm talking one in execution level my biggest critique of it is what we have here is a very rare and weird combination of characters who simultaneously ron martin simultaneously explain what is happening to move the story along while also delivering the exposition it's like it's Which I know is kind of similar, but I'm just saying that it's remarkable how many times in this movie the characters will stop to like.
piece every mystery together like out loud off the cuff just out of nowhere they just pull this out of thin air and they're like figuring out this weird stuff that's happening and it serves To explain to the audience, yeah, this is actually what the writers are intending. Yeah, so let me jump in here for a second, Jay. Please do, please do. Are you implying that that is a brilliant maneuver or a weakness of the film?
A terrible weakness. Oh, I think it's brilliant. No, no. Why is that brilliant? Because here's why it's brilliant. Because that's not, you know, hold back here. The movie's made for the fans of the slasher franchises, right? It's made for the Nightmare on Elm Street fans. It's made for the Friday the 13th fans. But everybody knows. Everybody knows who Freddy and Jason is. Right? Yeah.
So there was a good probability, and this is actually what happened, that with those two big giant movie characters in the movie together and fighting one another, something that we – and Jay, you're my age. You can attest to this. Something that was constantly talked about in schoolyards in the 80s. Yes. Between Freddy and Jason, our dreams are becoming reality. But there's also a portion of the audience like, for example, Spawn.
who just watched the movie for the first time today, that may not be up on the backstory of each franchise and what was actually happening or the attributes of the two characters in general, like what their strengths are, what their weaknesses are. in the movie, while it might seem kind of clunky because they're stopping to figure stuff out, it works, though, because they are characters figuring stuff out, but they're also explaining to the audience who these characters are, what they do.
And and advancing the story. OK, I see. Well, wait, wait. So the my problem with it is it's not like they're doing a kind of like a. a step-by-step mystery where it's like all okay so so you know looking at the evidence shown here it appears like this and this happened no they pull this this Just absolutely fantastical knowledge. It's like, how could you possibly guess or figure it out? Oh, what happened is. Freddie's angry because people don't know him anymore. And so he has.
somehow commissioned and found Jason Voorhees in hell and revived him to come back and basically be the attack dog to stir up all kinds of horror and get people afraid again. So Freddy can be... Strengthened by the fear in order to make a comeback. Now, see, all of that, like, how can any of these characters... That brilliant plot is making things move in my pants right now. This is a repeating plot.
Well, I'm happy to be able to do that for you. But I'm just saying, how can we expect characters to figure that out? And it's a little bit extra insulting that they're like... Also spelling it out for the audience. So the screen the screenwriters are like, you know, we can kill two birds with one stone. Let's let's let's use exposition and make sure the audience is following along by telling what we were thinking.
Yeah, I'm good with it. I think they show a lot of cases that push those characters into – Those situations where they're figuring stuff out now is a couple of times is a little force. Sure. I'm not saying this is a perfect movie, but that's but that's also I'm. Maybe I'll say something. I don't know if this is controversial or not, but what I'm going to say is I think this movie is the ceremonial end.
of the age of slashers. I think this movie denotes the end of the age of slashers. There's obviously been slashers since then, but not to the same prominence, aside from... I don't know, this crazy Michael Myers shit, which I don't understand, but he's the only one. So I think that that exposition that you're talking about also is common in other slashers as well.
I'm not saying I'm not I'm not I'm not saying it was like super deep thought meta like we're gonna make this because this is what other slashers do but I'm saying it's a slasher film and it's not uncommon in slasher films well here's the other thing I get a couple other couple you know, complaints as well that I think are reasonable, at least. Like, for example, yes, of the two monsters, I'm definitely a Jason Voorhees fan over. Yeah, definitely. But he was fine. You calm down.
But but he your name isn't even Jason. That's right. But he but what's interesting is he was brought to be the attack dog. And even though he was brought back to stir up the horror and get the killings going again and all that stuff. I'm surprised at still how much Freddie we're getting over Jason. We don't get nearly enough Jason. So for me, for my money.
When Freddy's on the screen, I'm like, oh, this guy, more of this guy. And then when Jason's on the screen, I'm like, yes, finally. I really feel like it's pretty equal. Well, what about this, though? But also you have to realize as well, Freddy talks. Jason doesn't. To understand the story, we –
By default, I have to get a little more Freddy. Well, or the characters. Yeah, the characters do it on their own. They can explain it to us. The other thing is. We have to see Freddy. You know, he tries to kill the one kid and he's not strong enough yet. We have to see Freddy try to kill Catherine Isabella. but she gets killed before he can get to her because Jason's getting greedy. Ron, you of all people, you're the one that I expected to say this.
How come in this movie, this is the first time Freddy's like whining about they've forgotten me. They don't know me anymore. It's like in multiple other movies, he was already preying upon kids. Who didn't know him or didn't know who he was. But people in the town knew who he was. In the town. Yeah. But all the evidence of him was still there. Like Nancy found his freaking claws in her.
Furnace in the first movie. See, in this movie, the town has gone understanding, you know, through the events of the previous seven films that the only way you can defeat Freddy is not to believe in him. Right. Which we've established since the very first movie. And that's a theme that is spoken to again and again in the franchise. So what they've done is they've erased him from their history. So the next generation, no one knows.
Who he is and therefore cannot be scared of him and therefore he has no power because no one's scared of him. So you're saying the absence of fear in the community, even among the adults, because they've just totally scrubbed him. Right. It's what makes him powerless, which I think is – I think that's a good storyline. That's the best that we could hope for for this movie. This movie is my go-to better than it had any right to be a movie.
But see, I would just say, and this is for all the Jason Voorhees fans out there, I would just say that that right then and there, I mean, shows that. Freddy Krueger is a wuss as a monster compared to Jason Voorhees. Because Jason Voorhees doesn't care. He doesn't need people to be afraid of him in order to be powerful. His powers are different. His powers are different. I know. And that's what makes him superior.
This guy. I got a little cheering section over here, Ron. What do you think about that? I mean, here's my rebuttal to that. Your dude would be still underneath a mound of dirt if Freddy hadn't brought him back. to do his bidding. He is Freddy Krueger's lapdog. Freddy comes back. I mean, Jason comes back whenever he wants to. Apparently not. He already would have been back.
Yeah, well, there are various things that bring him back. We can discuss why he was buried in Springwood for some reason. That's weird, isn't it? That's up for debate. Well, one last thing I'll say and then I'll get out of the way of you guys. I just want to say I do think it's kind of cool. And I think this was probably on purpose and probably obvious to everyone else. But it's cool that, OK, we got we got Freddy Krueger. We got Jason Voorhees. It would be nice to at least somehow have.
A little bit of Halloween franchise in there. So let's make our protagonist gal named Lori. That made me smile. Do you think that's I've never I've never considered that. In my research of the movie, I never came across that as part of a tribute. I'm floating it as a theory. I think it's in there just to remind people. Spelled differently. I know. Still pronounced Lori.
That's so that's so they could be like, yeah, yeah, yeah. We know Michael's out there, but we don't have any rights to that. And we're not going to get, you know, busted or dinged for, you know, spelling. Also, again, Jay, let me bring this up to you. This is 2003. This is before the resurrection of Michael Myers. As we have – well, I guess H2O would happen, right? But before he became omnipresent in everything.
Oh, he was beloved enough by 2003. But I would also say, and we've discussed this before in this franchise review, in the 80s, he wasn't. He wasn't on the same level. Earlier in the 80s, but I'd say by the latter. I'd say by the end of the decade. I mean, by the time we got H2O. I mean, listen, I was convinced for a long time that Halloween's four through six wasn't even released in theaters.
Because that's how, you know, unimportant he was in the 80s. He was definitely third fiddle to these two. He was. That's true. And I know. And a lot of Halloween fans. They, you know, they get a little bit touchy when you say that. But I mean, we recall because we lived it and we're old timers. There's no Halloween fan that likes me at this point. So that's OK.
I like you still. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Spawn's a Halloween fan and he likes you. Spawn, this brings me to you. So this is today was your first time watching the movie. Correct? Yeah. For the jury, we need to say today is your first time. So what were your first impressions of the film? And obviously through what we've heard so far, you're a Jason guy instead of a Freddy guy. But we should also mention you've seen, what, two of each franchise, right? You've seen three of the Jasons.
And two of the Nightmare on Elm Street. Yeah. Having watched this film today, what were your first impressions? So the movie just overall had bad writing. Freddy talks way too much. It's very critiquable. I'm not enough, Jason. It's kind of cheesy. I'm going to have to mute spawn. I'm just getting started. Go ahead. Go ahead. I did like when Freddy said, got your nose.
And then cut off that girl's nose. That was fun. That's Kelly Rowland of Destiny's Child. Yes. And then at one point, the computer files of Freddy and stuff was gone. And it might have been the police, but it also at first it seemed like Freddy just tacked the computer for some reason, which isn't how it actually went. But that's what I wrote down because that's what it felt like at the time.
I don't know how computer literate Freddy is. We've never seen him with a device. Yeah. And then there's just a random corn party. Listen, as someone who lives in a place where there are cornfields, I can – I can verify that those do happen. The raves. Yeah, that rave. Actually, that is my favorite sequence in this movie. That was pretty cool. And then just like people playing the pronoun game. Do you know what the pronoun game is? It's really like a known...
That's a known name of a thing that happened. I'm not sure what you're referring to right now. We're referring to grammar class or we're referring to. I mean, this is a 2003 movie. In movies, people are like, they. Did this. Say a friend just had. So say the person's name is Lori. And then her friend just got killed. Lori's friend just got killed. But one of Lori's other friends is there to comfort her.
and laurie's like they killed her and like that's the pronoun game because it's like really ambiguous i can't believe you didn't know about this Well, my mom, your grandmother, speaks that way all the time. And I'm like, yeah, mom, too many pronouns. I don't know who the antecedent is, who you're referring to. So anyways, some people just call that. I'm not communicating clearly. So there's a lot of that. Spawn, you didn't like the storyline? It was written dumb. I thought it was really clever.
Okay. Well, good for you, Ron. He does. Ron liked it, and he hates stuff. Well, let me ask you this. Let me ask you this then. Maybe you're not the best person because you haven't seen all of the movies, but what's the alternative? Jason and Michael and Xenomorph and... Well, you don't have Jason and Michael and Xenomorph. All you have is Jason and Freddy. What's the alternative storyline that's going to be any better than this? Well, I am not a director.
So you shouldn't be asking me this kind of question. Ron, aren't you the one who famously says you're not paying me to be the writer for this? If you say that, that's OK. But OK. If I say that or if anybody can say that, I'm not getting paid to do that. But I mean, it's my job as host of the show to ask for an alternative solution. That's right. So he's he's saying, do you have a better idea for making these two monsters end up fighting?
Yeah, well, Jason. Any other any other idea is not going to be as good as this one. And in my opinion, I have not heard another idea that's as good. OK, so Jason comes back anyways, every single time. Anyways. in mysterious ways that are ambiguous i'll admit like getting struck by lightning and then climbing on a boat or like in part four where he just literally gets up off of the autopsy table for no reason yeah he just got up and but like
So he would have come back anyways because he's Jason. But let me tell you this. In this movie, and not until this movie, it's established that his power is he cannot die. Yeah. And it was also dumb how – we'll get to that later because I have so many emails. So let me ask you guys this. A complaint I got from – Well, the plan I've heard about this movie is it doesn't include any of the previous survivors of the...
Other films, I think some people wanted this to be like this big climax where like all of the survivors of the previous films like Alice and the Dream Warriors somehow get involved and, you know, Tommy Jarvis and. The other female survivors who didn't get killed in the next movie come back and they're leading Freddy towards Jason or vice versa or whatever. Do you think that would have been a better premise?
I don't think so, personally. I literally think this is the best they could have done. Well, okay, probably. Ron thinks that, but I don't know. I bet you... If somebody would pay me, I think I could come up with a reason. I could come up with a really great reason. For them to fight that I think that you might appreciate, Ron. But, you know.
To be fair, you have to write a movie that gives equal time to Freddy. He's going to have to – we don't want a castrated Freddy. We want full-on Freddy. Right. We want the bad one-liners. We want the boiler room. We want the dream sequences. We want the score. We want the whole deal. This is the last Freddy Krueger flick.
Let me tell you, I think the biggest challenge to it, I think the most difficult aspect is the fact that Freddy hunts and prays. He kills in the dream world. Jason Voorhees kills in the real world. So I think, yes. Getting them to battle each other, given those circumstances, I think that is a conundrum.
No, and it's not because in this movie they did it. They battled in both the dream world and the real world. I agree. I'm just saying if I if I were looking at this and I'm like, OK, I got to write this story that I would look at that as the great. The great challenge, the nut to crack in order to solve the mystery of how to do it. This storyline led them to the dream world where they did a battle. Freddy Krueger got the upper hand, which makes sense. And then.
Later on, due to the side characters, the body count gang, so to speak, Freddy got pulled out of the dream world and fought Jason in the real world where Jason came out ahead. That was awesome. Yeah. Yeah, I actually like the way that they handle. I mean, I really think you have to do both. Right. Yeah, because they can fight in the where they're strongest in their domain. Yes. And here's what I appreciate about the film as well.
The dream sequences felt like real Freddy Krueger dreams. They weren't half-assing it. It was like a real Nightmare on Elm Street film. With the ambience, the music. The, you know, Robert England stalking a victim because, again, we've discussed this. This is the difference between him and Jason, right? Jason's just a murdering machine. Yes.
But Freddy needs that fear. That's why he plays with the characters. That's why he doesn't always kill them the first time that he stalks them. He gains that strength from their fear. Yes. Yes. And I also appreciate it. That we get to see what a Jason Voorhees nightmare looks like. That's pretty interesting if you think about it. It's like, right. What does a monster.
dream about but anyway you spawn you had something um before i keep going um oh my goodness it was just there it was like oh that happens all the time brother thanks um You like Freddy so much. And he needs to gain his strength from almost killing them, but not killing them, then letting them wake up and then tell everyone about it. He needs to like build up. But Jason and so many others that are way stronger are in the real world. And Jason doesn't care. He just, Jason, Jason just kills them.
Just because. And there's reasons, but this is just on Freddy. Jason doesn't need to build up. He just does it. Well, actually, Freddy charges him, posing as Jason Voorhees' mother. And sends him as an attack dog to go kill these. Yeah. So that's pretty cool, actually. So that's that that actually shows a tip of the hat to the Fred fans, I would say. Yeah. Ron is that.
The fact that Jason is doing his bidding in this movie. Right, so he takes Freddy, being the evil genius that he is, takes what Spawn just said, which is... Jason's main strength is that he just murders people. He doesn't have to gain their fear. It doesn't matter to him. It's a video game for him, right? Yeah. And so Freddy takes that strength from Jason and turns it in his favor. He says, I'm taking you to Springwood. You're going to murder all these people. People are going to think it's me.
Then I'm making my big comeback. The problem with his plan was he never took into consideration Jason's not going to stop murdering people. And there's not going to be anybody left. for Freddy to murder which causes the rift between the two because I think at the beginning there's some general respect between them at least from Freddy's side we don't know because Jason doesn't talk he seems to
have some respect for the killing prowess of Jason. Obviously, that's the guy he wants to use to get people to bring them back. And then it goes too far and Freddy gets pissed because Freddy is why he is. Right. So taking that strength and turning it against, you know, turning in his favor, you know, they say the pin is mightier than the sword. The mind is mightier than the brute. Yeah.
Let me ask you guys this. Were you surprised that there was a definitive winner? Although there's a lot of talk online now that Freddie actually won. But even as a Fredhead, I don't consider that a win. Jason is way stronger than Freddie. I think they undercut it, though, with that stupid wink that he does. Yeah, that's stupid. Well, that's setting up a sequel. I know, but that never happened. Does that bug you, though? Because it really bugs me. It doesn't. It's like.
If you're going to have a winner, which I believe we do, and it's clearly Jason Voorhees. Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that. Yeah, then I think that Fred needs to look. dead and totally owned and not like you know a goof especially in the low point the low point in this since at one point they have
Him playing pinball with Jason. The low point in this movie is when they use a body double for Catherine Isabel. Yeah, right, right. That's true, too. But they use him. Jason. Freddy has Jason. in a like a pinball situation and then the tilt but that but that it rather yes i get it tilt uh but that is vintage freddy krueger
But it's not Jason Voorhees, and that's the thing. Jason Voorhees is just the victim at this point. That's the show Freddy's in control. Freddy's doing what Freddy does, and that's what Freddy does in the other movies. That was in the dream world, right? Yeah, I just I can't see it. I can't. It's hard for me to buy him in that position. It's good. I don't know. Jason was getting owned in the dream world.
Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. But but it's the way that it was done. I just think that especially from a writing perspective, it's like, okay, if you make if you trivialize your monster. Like the weight and the heft and the ferocity and the threatening nature of Jason. And you have them bouncing around like a Looney Tunes character. I just feel like that totally undercuts that monster. I disagree 100 percent. OK, fair enough.
You disagree with a lot of things. Because it's Freddy's MO. You guys – it seems like you just want this to be a basic Friday the 13th film, but you have to give both characters half the movie. But why not? If he's going to do silliness, if we got to have silliness, have Freddy do the silliness to the human characters. Yeah, because I'd be.
Funner to see. I mean, he could still he could still own Jason in the dream world to make it fair and everything. But just don't trivialize and make Jason goofy. I don't I don't think it hurt Jason at all. I don't think anyone's coming out of that being like, oh, Jason. Jason's a puss at this point. He's going to beat Freddy because he got turned into a pinball. No one thought that. OK.
And literally, Jason, the scene later, rips off Freddy's arm and stabs him with his own claws. I mean, it's not as if it's not as if it's that's like. A boxer taking a knockdown in round 10 but then getting up and winning in round 11. No one's like, oh my gosh, you got knocked down in round 10. What an asshat. Right, right.
Just Freddie, you have to give – I think because this is the last film of these two characters. I mean I know each one has had a reboot type of film since then, but the last real film of these two characters. You have to give the fans of both franchises what they want. And that's what Freddie – I understand what you're saying. You could have done that with one of the human characters. I understand it. But we want to see it done with Jason.
It's Freddy versus Jason. The side characters are there, one, just to get the characters to where they need to be. The two main characters, Freddy versus Jason, they're the two stars of the movie. Monica Keene and Jason Ritter, whatever, but the two stars are really Freddy. and and jason and the other they're best there for gore the human characters and to push the plot you know we're killing all the humans yeah yeah that's my defense of
You you defend this film pretty well, and I'm surprised to hear you do it. And but I'm not surprised that you showed up to this podcast being ready to defend it in order to give. Listen, I'm not a Jason hate. I'm not a Jason hater. I enjoyed the Friday the 13th films as well. Yes, I know. But I do think it's some of the points you've said, because there are things, believe it or not, people out there, if listeners...
If there are anybody out there who's never watched this, it would be easy to just assume that you could dismiss this and write this film off. But there are clever aspects. And I do give you that. Like if I had been writing this, yeah, the way that they do handle how they fight each other in their respective domains, dream world, real world.
Yeah, I think it's done well. So there are a lot of things done well, and you've done a good job, Ron, at pointing those out. Well, thank you. How did you guys feel about making – Through three-fourths of the film, Jason is this terror that's just murdering all of the teenagers in Springwood in brutal fashion. There's some really good kills actually in this film. The first kill was in my top 10 of the Friday the 13th franchise, actually, I think, where he takes the dude and –
The holds him up in the bed. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. That was really cool. You know, we get an extended sequence of Jason on fire through a cornfield, which is a really good, really cool visual. Amazing. Do you know any trivia about how that was done? I do not. He's on fire for a long time. I always get nervous when I'm watching a movie and there's somebody doing a fire stunt. I get really like edgy in a real life kind of way. Like I'm worried for the actors, the stunt people.
But but man, this he was on fire forever. And the fact that he was just casually being Jason the whole time, like nothing was happening to him. Yeah. it could have been multiple takes like it could have they could just apply stuff together uh i do know here's what i know about people being on fire trivia i know that in jason takes manhattan the fire scene in there at the time was the longest anyone's ever, any person's ever been on fire continuously in a movie. Wow. But that's Jason.
takes Manhattan that's like what 1990 is 1989 and 1988 around there so I'm sure that has been beaten several times since then and maybe this was the new record holder at the time if they did it in one shot I mean that aerial shot would have had to have been one shot Mm hmm. And in 2003, they did choose to do some bad CGI in a couple of scenes. It's very 2003 CGI. For sure. Like when Kelly Rowland's nose gets ripped off. Yes.
But that wasn't that was you could tell that was real fire because CGI fire. This looks terrible. Right. Agreed. Agreed. And do you agree with me? It was clever the way they got him not on fire where he accidentally hacked into a. keg of beer yes that was awesome and it cooled him off that was great and in case you're wondering the the reason that the guy who probably should have been jack black said
This Everclear is kicking my ass. Everclear is 100% alcohol, so it definitely would catch on fire if you threw it on somebody and threw a match on them. Now what would probably happen is – You wouldn't continuously be on fire like the fire would just happen until the alcohol burnt out. And Ron knows that he's a bartender. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I catch I catch alcohol on fire all the time. It's fun. Anything that's 100 proof. Great.
But you guys, you Jason Defenders here, I mean by the end, he's such a sympathetic character that the human characters are giving him mouth-to-mouth resuscitation in order to keep him alive. Yeah. So if anything hurt your guy, it wasn't being played by being a pinball in the dream world. It's he's only alive because one of the Destiny's child girls gave him mouth to mouth.
But it wasn't because they cared about him. Yeah, he murdered them all. Yeah, I mean, they need they needed him to survive. And so they he needed to be kept alive. Yes, it wasn't. Okay, but through the course of the movie, the tone of the movie, by the end, he's the audience's – Freddy's a way more evil character portrayed that way at the end of this movie.
Yeah, Jason is a Jason's more of the hero, a sympathetic monster, even though he's still murdering people. Right, right. That's a great Kelly Rowland's death. And this is a great death, by the way, where she just goes off on Freddie. Again, this is part of the meta 90s, 2000s stuff where she's like, who's afraid of a guy in a Christmas sweater? No one would say that in the 80s, right? Yes.
Or like, oh, look at those tiny claws you have on your hand. Are you like making up for something? Because Jason has this big ass machete. Yeah. These are things that, you know. Wouldn't get said until the 90s or 2000s, which I thought was clever. Or even even the guy when the stoner guy says somebody really pissed off that goalie. Yes. I'm surprised we got through 10 Friday the 13th films without anybody mentioning Goalie. That's hilarious. Yes. Very cool.
So let me ask you this. Do you agree with me that this is the end of the age of the slasher? Well, like the OG most level 10 slasher, you know? Like, Jason and Michael and Freddie are all, like, the most known slashers. But there's been other slashers, like in Thanksgiving.
Well, Thanksgiving is a parody of a slasher while being a slasher. It's actually a very clever movie. And there's been a couple of one-offs, but I can't think – I mean because everything – every slasher since then, at least franchise slasher.
has, in my opinion, been pretty disappointing. And I don't think there's a lot of them. Nothing is really as good as the good ones. Well, and the thing is, and I haven't, this is really fun to... flesh out at some point and i'm sure other people have thought about this more than i have but um i you know i think yeah but if you're asking me ron
Have the flash has the have the slashers since this movie, the more modern slashers changed a bit. I do think there has been a degree of evolution to them. Right. They're all gimmick. They're all gimmicky now. Whereas this. You're saying, does this kind of serve as an end cap to what was the 80s and 90s slashers? And I think that's a fair statement. Listen, I obviously have a different take on the movie than the two of you do.
I think this is a fair ending. I think this I was even as a Freddie fan, like I'm satisfied. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't come away from this being like, oh, that should have never happened. You know what I'm saying? Right. Right. The way – and I don't know Ronnie Yu as a director. Like literally I can't think of anything else he's directed other than this. But from what I understand about him, he likes a lot of blood, a lot of core, and that's what we – that's kind of what we need in this film.
But it's the – again, it's the culmination of dozens if not hundreds of playground talk amongst middle-aged, middle-grade kids. Even maybe late elementary kids, high school kids from the 80s saying, oh, I mean, there are people probably like me that was like, well, Freddie will just get him in the dream world. Then he's done. There'd be people like you guys like, oh, well, Jason's so much bigger and better. He doesn't even need fear to survive, you know.
Yeah. Yeah. So we actually did see what would happen when these two collided and I was satisfied with the result. Yeah. Like, I mean, all things considered, even though it's not a great movie, it's technically a bad movie, but. It is fun. I have to admit it's kind of fun. You hate fun. It's kind of dumb fun. Yeah. What were you going to say, Spawn? I have so much more to say. Is that cool? Yeah, go ahead. Okay. So at one point.
Should I just do all the most important things on the rest of my mini notes? Yeah, the only reason, Ron. Spawn, you have free clearance to say what you need to say. Get it out of your system, brother, because if you don't. It's going to sit there and it's going to fester. And then until one day you have to create your own podcast in order to get all this stuff out of your system. We don't we don't have to happen.
Your dad has a plethora of podcasts. Yeah. Out of your system. So you go ahead and you get everything off of your chest that you need to get off of. So at one point there's a scene where like the guy. Needs to take pharmaceutical type drugs to stay awake. Not drug drugs, but like pharmaceutical type drugs. And there's a pill bottle of stay awake pills. And there was one left just for the plot.
Just saying that you've never you've never come across a pill bottle. I had one. Listen, I don't know. Yeah. At some point, there's going to be one. There's going to be one pill in the bottle if you keep taking the pills. At some point, there's only going to be one egg in the carton if you keep making the eggs. Well, I just thought it was dumb that there was that last one. But that last one fell down the sink anyway. He didn't even get to use it. Which makes it even dumber.
No, no, no. That's a common movie plot, especially in Slash Report. Okay. Next. Well, that's true. What else you got? There was blood coming out of the floor, and then a pile of snakes came out of that blood. And then one of them was trying to get away, but since the floor was covered in like an inch of blood, the snake was just like slithering pointlessly and staying in the same place like a dodo. Because it had no friction. It had no friction to do anything. So it was just trying.
It's best. I didn't watch the end credits, but maybe there was a no snakes were harmed in the making of this movie. While he's reading, Jay, let me ask you this. Would you have liked that wink from Freddy Krueger better had it been?
an after credit scene which wasn't a thing in 2003 right that's kind of a marvel thing that got that going i mean occasionally but not not very often the only reason if they had like if he if they showed Jason like throwing Freddy's head aside after he walked out like after the credits rolled and then he gets the wink would that be better for you not much because I'm telling you the imagery
Of Jason just like slowly marching, trudging along, carrying Fred. It should be a poster. It should be a poster. Yeah. I mean, and the way Fred's head looks initially when he's beheaded. It's really creepy and cool, and it's just such a strong image. And it's not because I prefer one monster to the other, honest to goodness. I just think, oh, wow, that's a strong image to go out on. I agree. And then it just...
It's my biggest problem with Freddy. It just trivializes like we're having a good horror time. And then all of a sudden it's like the Duke to do is silliness and he winks. So it just it just totally undercut. Listen, I'm not going to disagree that it doesn't take. some of the punch out of the scene. But my take on it is they're just vying for a sequel. Yes, for sure. Which never happened, but. I know, sadly.
Sadly. Sadly, right? I mean, because now we have this ending. I say sadly. With a wink. And that's it. Nothing came of it. Ambiguous, but. Listen, there was a definitive winner at least. Spawn, Spawn, are you ready? And then I wrote sleep fire pointlessly because at one point there was this guy that was asleep because he was in a dream with Freddy or whatever. And then.
He just caught on fire like his body, body caught on fire. Like, I don't think anything in his dream happened that was related to fire. So he just caught on fire for no reason. And then it got put out and stuff. There was a scene where the sheriff was smoking in the building and there is no way a sheriff would smoke in the building and it was a cigar. No smoking signs and stuff everywhere all over the world. And then.
There was the sorry, the police force. It was corrupt. Absolutely. Trying to like do shady things and stuff. Well, I mean, there's two. There's there's two. slasher staples that are representative in this that we have not discussed yet like one they brought back the elm street parents that are absolutely terrible uh-huh those that's representative here a couple of times also
Most – especially slashers, but most horror movies, most of them have inept cops, inept law enforcement. True, true. And that's a trope. Yeah. Yes, it is. And then at one point, the characters knew the plot. It came to them like our Jason said. The best Jason. Yeah, that's right. And that was dumb. And then, like, the scene where they were going to sacrifice someone to Freddy, that was done, too. Why would they think of that? That was Spawn. That was part of a nightmare. Still. Still.
That's a good defense there. And then there was this like ready caterpillar that was fat and ugly and then it smoked a bowl or something. And that was a dumb scene. No, that's a great scene. I thought that was dumb. That reminds me of, isn't that a callback to Alice in Wonderland? Yeah, I would say so. It's OK. I thought so. But also like Freddy, you know, it's not like we've never seen a Freddy snake or a Freddy worm before. That's true. Freddy caterpillar. The weed guy.
It was like brainwashed or something. Because he got possessed by Freddy. Yeah, he was like possessed. And I thought that's dumb because Betty isn't like Valak or anything. Well, your dad's favorite Nightmare on Elm Street movie would tell you differently. What's your favorite? Of Elm Street? Yeah. The first one. That's true because the original. The OG. The OG is really better. Freddie has possessed the power to do that to people within the franchise before.
Yeah, that's true. I guess. And then at one point, Jason falls asleep and he's like immortal. Well, Jason is tranquilized. Why would they? I don't know that Jason falls asleep ever. Yeah, he's tranquilized. I still think that was dumb. But he was. Ron, I wanted to clarify this with you, though. He was not tranquilized with hypnosil, though. It was tranquilizer because because with hypnosil, because I was going to jump on that with both feet.
Yeah. But but I'm like, wait, OK, it must not have been hypnosil because they don't dream on hypnosil. Yes. Right. That's why Freddie possessed the druggy guy and had him get rid of all the hypnosil. And then had him tranquilize Jason so that he would have control over Jason in the dream world. Brilliant plot. Brilliant plot. Yeah, that was good. That was good. At one point, like, well, at multiple points, the Jason X Freddy fights.
and stuff and the stupid pinball stuff and everything and like when Freddy when sorry when Jason was on fire for like three minutes straight fire being on fire full body is like I would say in the top two most painful things or the top one most painful thing a human can do or go through. And he wasn't even flinching. He didn't care at all. He's that's because he's a badass.
Yeah, but then when Freddie was just poking him with the butter knives, like the girl said or whatever, Jason was like, oh, oh, oh. He was acting like it hurt him. But that's dumb. And you're like, okay. Because getting stabbed with hand knives hurts less than being on fire for three minutes. Jason can be hurt. True. He's been down before. And I see that the way I view that, and I can't believe I'm defending this, but the way I view it is like Freddie's claw is his move.
Yeah. In Mortal Kombat, it would be like his finishing move. So, yeah, that would be the most potent pain that Freddy could inflict, whereas fire would be a general hazard. Yeah. I'm just saying you buy that fire is Freddie's weakness, right? So, yes, yes, that's true. But like Jason being on fire full body. Yeah, I take your point.
More painful than being stabbed. I get it. But he said he did say something funny, Ron, that I wrote down because because we were talking about this very straightforwardly. And he's like, he's like, I just. He didn't appreciate Freddy as much, but he said, it's like so much about him is not well conceived. That's what he said. And it made me giggle. But yeah, he's a chip off the old block, as people can tell. I mean, he's... He's a lot like me, but I try. The truth is I try not to.
And I know this is hard not to do, but I try not to like brainwash or influence him one way or the other. Well, we hope you wouldn't brainwash him. That's true. But I'm just saying, like, for example, he likes paranormal and supernatural horror. Yeah, so do I. And and that's really not as much my thing. So I haven't I haven't tried to talk him out of it just for the record, everybody. Yeah. You weren't an Elm Street father.
no you're a disappointment what are you doing no no i wouldn't i wouldn't say so yeah um and then like i know like even jason and freddie have some like fears but like jason would not be afraid he's like because he's been in water and hidden in water and like been submerged in water for hours and stuff and he wasn't afraid then so why you don't know he was afraid
When he – what? You weren't in his mind. You didn't know if he was afraid. But he was because that's what the movie was depicting. I'm saying in previous times that he was underwater. We don't know if he was afraid. But he probably wasn't. He's been murdered under the water many times throughout the franchise. Let me just say, on behalf of the Jason Voorhees fans, I can say this, and Dave Z will appreciate this, I think.
Jason Voorhees is not afraid because he is fueled by a mother's love. Yeah, that's true. Come on, Ryan. You know that. I'll hit you in the feels. Listen, you're going to tell me. You're going to sit here and tell me. How weak Freddy Krueger is when you're combating that with, oh, Jason really likes his mom. He's a mama's boy. That's right. That's what gives all of us power, us mama boys, is our mama's love. Yeah, man.
Right? Yeah. And then, like, so Jason's been submerged in tons of water before, and he never showed the slightest sign of being afraid. We don't know. Even in the same movie, he fell in the water and wasn't afraid at all. He wasn't depicted as scared at all. Not even in camera angle. But also, it should be noted that when Freddy got into his nightmares, Jason reverted back to his childhood, to his child self, to drown. Because it was Freddy's dream.
Well, he went into Jason's mind. Uh-huh. Yeah, but the Dreamlands is Freddy's domain. Still Jason's mind. Yeah. That's true. Where Freddy was manipulating him. Right. But Freddie didn't manipulate the story because it was a surprise to Freddie that he was scared of something. Yeah. Yeah. Because he actually says, oh, you are scared of something. Yes. And it is water. And if I drowned, I would be scared of water too. Understandable. And then I just wrote dumb.
But it's just a nice – from a film perspective, it's just a nice dichotomy, right? Fire versus water. Yes. Yeah. Very cool. It's like the prequel to the Elementals. I mean because honestly it doesn't make any sense that – Freddy's scared of fire throughout the entire franchise. He's surrounded by fire all the time, and he did catch on fire, but he's killed way more people since he's been caught on fire than he did before he got caught on fire. Another.
reference that could be tracked way way back to 1931 Frankenstein's monster afraid of fire as well so oh yeah anyways and for next year's retrospective series we're going 100 years in the past So, yeah, that's all my notes. Yeah, we're we're ready, Ron. We're ready. OK, well, did you get that out of your system? Yeah. How do you think about the writing in this movie? Dumb.
This one – this question is mainly for Jay since he's seen all the movies and he's watched them here with me. I want you to begrudgingly tell me where you think Freddy Krueger belongs in the Slasher pantheon. You mean among slasher killers? Yeah. Well, I mean if we're talking about – Because to me, there's now three guys. I will begrudgingly put Michael Myers there.
on the a level and it's these three everyone else is on a level below oh yeah i mean if you're talking are we talking about iconic status are we talking yeah i mean For iconic status, of course. Of course. You just can't argue it. You can't. I mean, you know, it was a test to see if you would try. well I mean I could tell you all the reasons I think that I don't think he's a great monster but
Oh, I spent all of last Halloween ranting about how terrible Michael Myers is, but I give him his spot. That's right. Well, same goes for Freddy with me. I'm with you. So, yeah. Yeah, it's undeniable. I mean, he is... Freddy's huge. So Spawn, now that you have all of that out of your system... You say that everything that you wanted to about the movie. Why don't you go ahead and give me like a final wrap up and rating for the movie? OK, I do agree with you guys that it was.
A fun watch. I enjoyed it quite a bit, even though it was dumb. And I think this would also be a fun movie to watch on a Friday night. Because it's like classic horror. Two horror legends combined. That's a really amazing concept. So props to the movie for that. It doesn't happen enough, really. Freddy and Jason and Alien and Predator, really. That's kind of it, right? Yeah. So I would rate this movie a 6 out of 10.
And a low-priority buy. Okay. A low-priority buy. So that means if you're a horror fan and you have a pretty decent collection, you probably should have this one. Yeah. All right, Jay. OK. Yeah, I mean, well, we we do finally get the monster mashup here that that people were clamoring for in the 1980s. Yeah, that's let me say that that's an accomplishment. Like how many times would.
We talk about this stuff and there's just no way it was ever going to happen. Absolutely. But we actually got one of them, right? Yeah. And I'm so glad you talked about that, Ron, because for the younger listeners who might not be aware of this, I mean, that was. It was a huge deal and we did finally get it. And so that was that was pretty epic, really.
The execution, I have some gripes with it, but honestly, Ron, I've got to give you some credit. You've actually talked me up on this film a little bit. up a whole a whole point okay so so yeah yeah after discussing it with you because i could see there are some there are some aspects that were laid out well i just
Yeah, so I'm right down the middle. I was initially going to say a four, but I got to say a five out of ten. And I'm going to call this a low priority rental. I mean, if you're a horror fan, you got to see it at least once. You got to see what happens when. Freddy versus Jason, of course. Absolutely. So that's what I give it. Five out of ten, low priority rental.
All right, and then before I go into my rating, I would like to point out to Spawn that most of the storylines in the Friday the 13th franchise are pretty dumb. But we just accept them. That's true. That's true. He stepped away because he wants the movie to happen. That's right. Yeah. Well, he can hear that on a after it's published. That's right. All right. So. Like I said before, this is my go-to movie whenever I talk about a movie that was better than it had any right to be.
Because this movie by all stretches with all the people involved, with the various storylines involved, with so many moving parts, shouldn't have been as good as I think it is. And elevated or not elevated. I've enjoyed it.
in both capacities i will say it's much funnier when you're elevated but i think this does a really good job of getting these two horror icons together in a way to me that i think makes sense I think the town of Springwood erasing Freddie from their existence in order to combat his maniacal ways. Because they don't believe in him, therefore making him powerless. I think that was a pretty good writing trick. I'm wondering how many.
You know, how many versions of the script had had to go through in order to get to that. And I think sending out Jason as, you know, Freddy's, you know, basically death dog. whatever you want to call it, in order to garner up fear from Freddie and I. I thought that was clever, too. I really enjoyed the fact that we get we get both. You know, both movie tropes.
We get good nightmare scenes. We get the score. Like I said before, we get some classic Freddy Krueger one liners. We get some Freddy Krueger posing. He loves to pose. So we get some of that. But we also on the other side, we get classic like Jason stalking. We get that score. We get some of Jason P.O.B., which is big in that franchise. And also.
as a nod to that franchise as well, Jason usually has a much, much higher body count than Freddy. So in this film, Jason kills like 18 people. I think Freddy kills like... Two or one and a half. Depends on how you want to count that stoner guy. Okay. So. That I also think is a nod to both films, and I was really happy. And that's something I noticed more this viewing than previous – like Spawn kind of mentioned.
Many times I've viewed this movie, it's kind of been on in the background. I don't want to say it's like a safety film when you have a bunch of friends over. But that's kind of been the case many times when it's been on like, oh, this is on TV. We'll turn it on or hey.
Here's three or four movies with anyone to watch. We'll just throw it in as we're playing Cards Against Humanity or something like that. So it has been – it has kind of made its way into that pantheon of movies I think. So this viewing I really noticed.
you know, how well they did the Freddy scenes versus the Jason scenes. And I don't know if you guys noticed this either, but there's certainly there's water versus fire. There's Freddy versus Jason. There's also red versus blue. So many. Oh, yeah, that's neat. Many of the Freddy scenes are in a red tent. Many of the Jason scenes are in a blue tent, which I also appreciated. And I didn't hate the.
human characters i thought they i thought they portrayed their job pretty well whether whether or not um it's just banal exposition or not um i thought they were i don't say flesh out full characters but you know i Better than the average slasher victims, I think, for the most part, except for a couple of those guys at the beginning, which that's just, I think, I don't know if I've purposely done or not, but a nod to traditional.
Nightmare on Elm Street and Friday the 13th victims. Yeah. Because the guy who was a dick at the beginning, I mean, he's no different from the first Nightmare on Elm Street, to be honest. Right. Other than he didn't. last long enough for him to redeem himself like rod kind of did in that film he just got murdered right away yes so that being said i think this is a must watch for any horror fan
who was around in the 80s and enjoyed either one of those franchises. I will not go as far to say as it's a horror cred movie. I think it's just outside of that door. I'm giving this an 8 out of 10. I think this is a must-have for horror fans. You should buy it. You should have it in your collection. Nice. Listen, outside of the original Nightmare on Elm Street, and I'm going to say any of the –
2, 3, or 4 of Friday the 13th. Like, I think this is the next one. Wow. Okay. And I love Iron Man 3 and 4. I have all of them. I have all the Friday 13s as well. But if you only have three or four, like this should be one of them, I think. Eight out of ten for me. So that being said, this is the last film. Last time I have a little bit of trivia. Are you guys ready?
Let's hear it. Cool. In many versions of the script that was passed around throughout time, another horror villain was brought in as a surprise at the end of the movie. Which horror villain was that? I don't know. Yeah, I have no guess. Tell it. Pinhead. Whoa. There were some scripts walking around where Pinhead comes out after the battle's over. But they didn't want to obtain the rights to him. So that got kicked out after a while. There was also.
A gimmick attached to the film for a while that didn't make it into the final product, but it was like a marketing gimmick that has been used before. Do you guys know what that gimmick might have been? I wish I could give you more information, though. I don't want to say it without giving it away. Little keychains that are like half Fred, half Jason hockey mask. No, but that should exist.
Like we saw with Daredevil and Wolverine. I'll give you a hint that will totally give it away. Tell it. It's a gimmick that was used in the mid 80s with a movie based on a board game. Clue. Clue. I was just thinking it was used in a movie. Because, yeah, Clue is based on a board game. What else? I don't know. What was the gimmick for Clue?
that they had multiple endings yeah so this is gonna have two separate endings film then you wouldn't know which ending your theater was gonna get oh or one oh that's cool one would win versus the other one would win i bet Yep, that was going to be the gimmick. Really? And then people could argue forever who wins. Well, can you imagine the arguments that would set up with dudes like...
10 years later in bars. Yes. No, I saw that movie. Freddy totally won. No, dude, I saw the movie. Jason won. Yes. Especially if you didn't know there were two versions of the movie out there. That'd be trouble. Until YouTube came along. Right, right. So this final script, the script that was written by the two writers who really haven't written anything else, they had some script doctors come in, tighten it up, take some scenes out, take some dialogue out.
but the original script was, was a hundred and like, like it was like 220 pages long. What was the, what was the original runtime of the movie before the script doctors came in? Wow. It was 220 pages long. So it would have approximately been 220 minutes, right? Because it's about a minute per page. Well, it was around that. I don't know the exact number of pages. Okay. I don't know. What was it?
It would have been two and a half hours. Whoa. What's it at currently? An hour and a half, which I will say, like you can get these two horror behemoths to do battle, murder like 25 kids. have a definitive winner in an hour and a half. There's no excuse for any horror movie being over that. Yeah, I'm with you. I like the...
The brisk pacing of like the, you know, 80 to 90 minute horror films. That's me, too. Yes, I very much. If you're going to give me a two hour. Here's what happens whenever I see a movie is two hours long, a horror movie. I start looking at scenes and being like, why is this scene in the movie? This could have been taken out and saved five minutes. Yep. That's right. I'm in one very late version of the script. There was a side story.
with tommy jarvis involved oh and there was an actor already tied to the role a known actor was going to play tommy jarvis do you know who the actor is no i don't Jason Bateman. Oh, that's awesome. I love him. That would have been cool. And the final trivia question of our 40 years later retrospective. What horror icon joined the battle in a sequel comic book series? Let's see. I discussed this earlier in the retrospective. Oh, did you? Okay. Was it Leatherface?
Was not Leatherface. Is it Pinhead? It's not Pinhead. Think good guy side. Yeah, Chucky, Chucky. So think good guy side. Not bad guy side. Oh, when you said good guys, I thought you said Chucky's doll. The good guy side. Oh, okay. Like, okay. So you're talking, let's see, was it Nancy? No, horror icon. So that would be Freddy versus Jason versus Ash. Oh, yeah. Okay. Watson would have gotten that one. Right. And at one point.
In the series, Freddy gets control of the Necronomicon and takes control of the Deadites. And Ash and the remaining survivors from the films have to try to stop them while Jason's also murdering people. So with that trivia, that concludes our coverage of the Nightmare on Elm Street franchise for the 40th anniversary of the franchise. And we hope that you have enjoyed our walk down memory lane with the man of our nightmares. And I am your host.
Deadhead, Ron Martin, and on behalf of Jay of the Dead, Dave Dr. Shock Becker, the Gillman Joel Robertson, Mr. Watson. Dr. Walking Dead, Cal Bishop, Greg Amortis, Macula, Dave Z, and Spawn of the Dead. We all want to thank you for listening to J of the Dead's new horror movies, the podcast where we remind you that whatever you do, don't fall asleep.