you Hi, and happy Thanksgiving and happy Black Friday and happy Thanksgiving weekend this weekend. You guys like how I did? I didn't commit to Thanksgiving release, but... It is, I am committing to a Thanksgiving weekend release. So now we're talking. Yeah. Yeah. Now expectations, managing expectations. This is Jay of the Dead and you are listening to...
Shay of the Dead's new horror movies, the gold standard, obviously, of horror movie podcasts. And thank you for being here. I am so elated to be shooting from the hip and just... Recording this intro outright with no script, no nothing, and with a raspy voice. And I want to welcome my co-hosts who are present thus far. We may have more en route. First from the Pacific Northwest. He is a lover of polar bears, karaoke, and monkey bones. We want to welcome Mr. Watson.
Hello, my friends. Yes, I'm in good company tonight. And yes, I've got a raspy voice myself. So we'll get through it. We'll power through this bad boy. And I'm also, just to put it out there, maybe I have a lover of raccoons. I've become obsessed with them such that on my way home from a movie we'll be talking about at some point in this episode or the next, however it goes, I took a street I normally don't take.
to get back a back road and in front of me comes this adorable little chonky boy, a raccoon and I stopped my vehicle. And got out to go try to feed him crackers. And then it hits me. What are you doing, dude? This is nuts. Like, you know, I mean, he could have rabies. He the signal I was getting from him was he was fine and just needed a buddy. But.
I think things are going out up in the old upstairs. So I will be more careful and maybe do less raccoon approaching in the near future, my friends. Brother. As a West Virginian, I can tell you, those things are very dangerous, those trash pandas. You better watch out. Well, I have a feeling there. It's just like if I lived in the Arctic, I'd feel the same way about polar bears. Hey, there's a good boy out there. Let's let Mr. Watson go hug him. And I think it'd go well.
I love and appreciate your love of animals, and I feel like you would be an amazing zookeeper or something, or maybe a wildlife preservist something. Is precisely the role because I don't have the mental bandwidth to have a pet. Yeah. My love of animals and I can't own one. I'm not even kidding. That's amazing. Maybe other horror Avengers on the call are our pet owners and can rock and roll like that. Yeah. Yeah. Let's see. So let's see. Let's see. From.
Hailing from North Cackalacky. He is the Southern Gentleman. And I think he has won the award for the nicest man. in horror podcasting. I think. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure this is the guy. Yes, the nicest man in horror podcasting. I want to welcome Greg Amortis. And I got one extra small gravy flavored condom for you. No. Whoa. Coming from the nicest man in the world, I had to quote Thanksgiving because it's Thanksgiving. Anybody ever seen Thanksgiving the movie will know.
That one extra small flavor condom is exact gravy flavor. Condom is what you need. So there you go. Yes. Yes. You're so good at that. That's amazing. Pearl's like, stop it right now. I love pets. I need another pet. I don't have a pet. Well, I have a catfish. that's really tiny and small and can live in the crappiest of conditions and he still lives. He's like, he's like Frankenstein. Honestly, man, we love Charlie. Hey, Charlie. Oh, nice. Charlie.
Yeah, Charlie. He's cool. You named him Charlie. I love that. That is perfect. I say bye to him every day. So, yeah, I'll go out the door to work. Bye, Charlie.
I like people who name things. That's how I know I like Greg Amortis. When I was growing up in school, I used to... In school, yeah. But seriously, though, in junior high school and high school as well... I would judge women, the girls that I was potentially going to try to date or... get turned down by one of my criteria that i would i would try to figure out is if they named their stuffed animals or not and a shockingly high percentage
of at least in West Virginia, the gals that I asked did not name their stuffed animals. And I found that so disturbing. And I'm like, where is that maternal instinct you don't name your stuff i mean i had a million stuffed animals and i named every single one of them and so i i don't know i don't know like watson i know you have a stuffed polar bear i do did you name that guy I call him him.
Listen, that is a reference to the polar bear. I'm serious. That's the reference to the polar bear that when you – when you come to my house, you sit down. I fire up the computer that's hooked up to the TV and I click – the bookmark youtube it goes right instantly to him it's a 47 second video of russians feeding a polar bear through a window and he's him and that's who he is Right. Yes. There you go. Yeah. There you go. So see, he does name them. Yeah.
Every normal person names their stuffed animals, right? That's right. That's right. Now, if I had to guess, I bet the Twisted Temptress did not name her stuffed animals. She names and talks to every single one. Now we're talking. Hourly basis. You found a... A normal gal then. Good. I did. I found a normal gal. All you others that don't name your stuffed animals, you're abnormal. You're just abnormal. Psychopath. Anyway.
So yeah, happy Thanksgiving. Try to get this out on Thanksgiving. Probably be late knowing me, but you know, here's the thing. We're... currently waiting for Dave Z to be joining us. So soon he is en route. And the other thing I want to tell you, I want to tease this for my co-hosts here who are present. We got lined up for you. a review of Heretic. And then earlier today, I went and I spent, I had lunch with Kagan, the fruit brute.
Breitenbach went to and visit his place. And I also went to hang out with the Vampire Lestat. And we did Kagan's musical segment in person at Kagan's Piano with two mics, right? And what happened was, you got to hear this. What we're going to do is, thank heavens, Kagan is editing it because it's like, it's got to be the longest segment. probably ever in the history of this show. So just buckle up. It's a podcast in and of itself, but we're going to conclude this episode.
with that segment and here's why it's fun and i hope this teaser will get people excited we cover like basically all the bases there's lots of watson talk in it Yes. No, that's not good. A whole lot of Watson talk. There is lots of Dave Z talk because Dave Z, when he comes, I'll have to remind him, but Kagan loves. The Shining. It's his all-time favorite film, as is the same with Dave Z. It's his favorite film as well. And Kagan really wants to do this special for us about The Shining.
He describes it as in-depth conspiracy theories that go way deeper than even the Room 237 documentary. so he wants to talk Dave Z about all this stuff and he's very excited about it so he teases that and let me just say I was moderately excited about that, but he tells a little bit about what they're going to discuss. You'll hear it in this episode because he teases it for us.
And once I heard that, I'm like, oh my goodness, I have to know. I have to know all this. So anyways, that's going to be coming. So he just kept saying, though, I don't know how to get a hold of Dave Z. I'm like, well, we can make this happen. So anyway, but the biggest, the, and I hope everybody else appreciates this as much as. The horror Avengers might not appreciate it, but the main event is...
For some reason, we got into this discussion where we ranked the Horror Avengers, all 10 of us. Ah, shit. Dang it. Number 10 again. I'm sure I'm going to be like fucking Ant-Man. No, we didn't rank in our favorites. We didn't rank in, you know, handsomeness or the ones we love the most. We ranked from... the most reasonable when it comes to discussions, debates and discussing movies to the least reasonable. And so, um,
And I participated, I'll just have you know, and this is what's really weird. And of course, I'm among the 10, but I just want to say, Kagan and I... have the we ended up having the exact same list which is crazy which makes me think maybe it's accurate so anyways um listeners out there if you want to play along at home you can put together your list and from the
least reasonable meaning the least able to be persuaded with um logical arguments um all the way up through to the most reasonable and man It is a hilarious discussion. But at the end, because Kagan's got a big soft heart, he was like, oh, I don't know if this is a good idea. What if these guys hate this? What if they're mad? So I'm like, I don't think they'll care or listen. But anyway. It's pretty fun. So Greg and Watson, what do you think about this? Are you intrigued?
I'm intrigued. I just hope I'm not number 10 again. I'm always number 10. I'm always the one that's in the schoolyard. And it's like, you know, we're playing baseball or basketball. And it's like, I'll take Joe. I'll take Sue. I'll take Ron. And who gets Greg? The last one. There I am sitting there with, you know, kicking sand around, looking at my ankles and stuff. Okay, I've got to take Greg. You better have made me proud, son. Y'all should have done it.
If you drank us by age, that would have been better. I know, right? Yes, yes. Watson, are you up for that? Are you going to listen to that, do you think? I listen to everything, and yeah, I feel like if the two of you are being intellectually honest, then I'll fare well. Now that word if, Greg, is doing a lot of heavy lifting. Yes, yes. I mean, in my opinion, Watson would be number one as far as that goes for most intellectuals. So I'm just saying, I'm throwing that out there.
That's interesting. That's yeah, we didn't do an intellectual list, but that that would be I'd be at the bottom of that one. But I wouldn't even I wouldn't even risk a list like that with you guys. But. But no, like, well, and here's the other funny thing about this is basically, and this is just still teaser and I'll move on from it, but one last teaser about the Kagan segment is that he...
He put together this incredible music that he arranged. I wasn't aware of that at first, but he actually arranged this music and he sent it to me to practice. So we could do this four-handed piano part. He plays two hands, I play two hands. And I'm like, dude, I can't. you know, I can't even do, I can't do this. So, so, um, thank heavens, the vampire list that as vampires often are, are extremely talented and he was able to step in and play the stuff that my.
Weak ass couldn't play. So, so it's still cool. It's still very cool and awesome. So that's a must listen coming later in this episode. I hope people are ready for that. It's going to be fun. So can't wait. Can't wait. All right. So, Watson, tell us about, while we're just waiting to get into Heretic, we're very excited about this. Tell us about your Thanksgiving traditions and especially Thanksgiving 2024, if you would.
Oh, wow. The plans are still up in the air about what Thanksgiving 2024 will look like, I believe. We will be heading over to my mom's. I've got a turkey. I'm sure she's got more than a bunch of stuff. And I'm mostly keto, you know, so Thanksgiving becomes a real pain in the ass. Yeah. We'll indulge. I have a feeling that's going to happen unfortunately, much to the chagrin of my blood sugar.
Yeah, we just – we do the cooking and we do a lot of fellowship, the hanging out. Maybe there will be a movie. It's just a lot of chilling is really what it is at the Watson house. I think my – A lot of my family moved over to Montana, so it's just kind of a... Small core group of us still here in Washington. But since my son lives with me full time now, 21-year-old Lil Watt, he'll be with me and we'll head over to my mom's and do a bunch of cooking, a bunch of smack talking.
youngest brother's there if he's back from his kind of long stay in Montana he and I will sure say a bunch of words we shouldn't say my uncle Mick is always there and we'll do some whiskey drinking some cider some turkey some I'll try to keep the pies in the
bread you know to a to a minimum but yeah it'll just be rocking and as traditions go i don't have many other than the you know the fellowship itself the family time itself and how important that is because that is first and foremost in my mind about all
holidays like this, including Christmas. I'm less the present guy than the time together fella. So we'll be doing a whole lot of that, talking smack, laughing, living it up. And we're the sort of family that we all get along very well. I know there's... A lot of strife in the world and sometimes that strife.
Comes to, you know, individual families. And that is a very sad thing. And thankfully, and by the grace of God himself, that's never been the case with my family. We are thick as thieves and it's sure to be. A tremendous example of what a Thanksgiving can look like minus – well, no, in addition to the colorful language. Right. Awesome. That's beautiful.
Well, thank you. I wish I could be there. Do me a favor and give your mom a big like do a huge kiss on the cheek for me and then say that's from Jay. I always every time I mention you, I do say my brother. from another mother she goes oh you're you're jay buddy she she knows you by at this point my jay buddy i like that yeah i'll be jay buddy well speaking of jay's buddies want to welcome
The horror Avenger that we were waiting for with bated breath. I want to welcome Dave Z to the table. Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. Sorry about the hold up. That's all right. I made it. I made it. Thanks for being here, Dave Z. Of course. Yeah, I'm happy to be here. The thing is with my mother, I'm at her house on Sunday dinner, right? And they are going to be gone. They snowboard. So they're going to be gone from January until May.
So basically my Sundays, I'm all booked in with my mother until then. So sometimes it goes late with her and everything else. And she always gives me the business when I say I got to go home for a podcast because she doesn't understand. But hey. Here I am, man. I flew out the door. I said, come on, we got to do this. Problem is I got to take care of this crazy dog I have, which needs all kinds of attention because she's elderly and on all kinds of meds and requires.
Food for the pills and this and that and my wife's working. So it's just me running things. But anyway, I'm here. Thank you. Thank you for waiting patiently. Well, you're a good son and a good dog owner. And you named your dog, right? You named your dog? No, this dog came with her. I don't have, I don't, no. You don't name things? Let me guess, you don't name things.
I named things. I named my cat. Yeah, I named two of my cats. He names things, Jay. Okay, good, good. Because we're judging people. Dave Z, do you name your stuffed animals? Greg's head. I did have a stuffed animal when I was a kid that they had a name. It was a dog, and for some reason his name was Tommy. See? See? Because Dave Z is not a sociopath. That's right. Thank you. Thank you. I guarantee... No, I'm not. I wonder if Ron Martin names his...
Stuffed animals. Oh, Ron Martin's a sociopath. Yes, he doesn't name them. I guarantee he doesn't. So one last thing, Dave Z, and we'll keep moving with Greg's Thanksgiving stuff. Dave Z, do you want to record a podcast with Kagan Breitenbach about The Shining? Yeah, I'll talk about The Shining, of course. Okay, good. Good, because every time I see him, I spent earlier today with him, and every time I see him, he's like...
I really want to do this episode with Dave Z. And he's like, how do I get a hold of Dave Z? And I'm like, we'll make it happen, brother. We'll make it happen. So definitely get you guys connected. It's going to be epic. Can't wait. Okay. Oh, and Dave Z, what are you doing for Thanksgiving, by the way? I forgot to ask. Oh, doing the same thing I did today, going to my mother's for dinner. Okay, perfect.
Yeah, I'm going to my mother's for dinner and she's going to make ravioli, especially for me. She's sick. So she's taking medication and this other stuff and everything else. So she can't do what I really would like her to do. And that's make lasagna. But that's a lot of work. So. I'm settling for the next best thing. I'm going to have some ravioli and I'm going to have pumpkin pie. And that's literally the only two things I will eat that day.
Jay, I got to cut in here because, Daisy, I was about to make a joke that I was hoping your Thanksgiving was as italiano as possible. And you just confirmed it for me, and I am so happy about this. Well – but check it. But check it. It's because of me because if I – I don't like freaking turkey. All right? I don't like – It's a tasteless bird. It's wet. I don't like turkey. I don't like the sides really. None of it does it for me. So for years, my mother used to always make –
And all Italians did at the time. Lasagna was one of the big dishes besides turkey. So for years, I would just literally just eat lasagna because it's like my favorite thing my mother makes. And that's it. I would eat lasagna and I would eat pumpkin pie. And that would be it. I love that. So now this year, she's not doing the cooking. She's not feeling well. My stepfather is going to be cooking the turkey. But again, I don't care about turkey. So I had to find another type of thing to eat.
So the compromise is ravioli is easy to boil. Okay, boom. So there it is. So I'll have ribs. Bada bing, bada boom. Yeah. My mom is half Italian. And no joke, some Christmases, Dave Z, she'd be like – because we're not like a ham family. It has nothing to do with a Jewish type thing either, friends. And so she'd be like, hey, Jesus was a fisherman, so we're going to have seafood Alfredo. Oh! Ah, that's okay.
Dude, Italians love having fish, especially if they're from the old country, from all the time. They're all about fish. Her dad was. Yeah, I think he was. I never got to meet him. But yeah, so I feel you about the alternate food selections, though, when it comes to hot. So I just wanted to pipe in. I was going to make some gabagool jokes, but you get it. I've done it on Exploding Heads a million times when you and Christian talk. But yeah, I love to hear this.
I think Jay is about to ask you. Since I'm blabbing, I'll just ask for him, Jay. I'll just step right in here. Thanksgiving traditions. Do you have any? I don't think so. No, I'm just happy that I don't have to drive far anymore. I just go to my mother's and it's freaking just a few. We used to have to drive to this place or that place and there's snow half the time. And I just, you know, I'm just the only tradition I have, I guess.
is just what it is just football's on i guess i watch some of those boring ass games and um and eat but i don't have any like traditions like the night before or anything else i'm just whatever man i just I'm just happy for the day off, I guess, you know? Yes. And Dave Z, I've got like 40 different things to say, but I'll just, I'll condense it into this because everything, you said so many things that I loved. Once again, I see that we have been separated in mitosis or something because...
Lasagna is my favorite thing my mom makes and I'm a pumpkin pie man. So everything you said just was ringing my bell over here. So thank you. Wonderful. Are you a turkey guy, too? Or do you not like turkey like me? Yeah, I mean, I'm an American, so of course I eat turkey at Thanksgiving. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. No, you're right about Turkey. You're right. You're right. It's, it's, it's not very good. Thank you. Do you, do you ever, ever.
Go out to dinner or go someplace out and have turkey. No. The only time you have turkey, I'm guessing, is because you're forced to on freaking Thanksgiving or maybe Christmas. Am I right? Let me just say, though. Turkey sucks. It's the most overrated thing in the world in this country. I agree. But the elder ladies in my family were excellent cooks. And so their turkeys were never dry and all the things you said. But most turkeys are.
And I'm not saying your family can't cook. I'm not saying that. Because you're right. Turkey has a tendency to be dry. But I don't know what they did. They did some kind of...
West Virginian witchcraft and it wasn't dry. It wasn't dry. But yeah, now if I try to have turkey... yeah like you know i've had wet turkey too i don't like that wet turkey yeah i do not like wet turkey jay so you guys make like good hill people turkey yeah oh yeah and it's probably not even turkey to be honest it's probably some other creature Yes, that's probably something. But the other day, I was driving with Spawn here in Utah, weirdly enough.
and he's like dad there's a giant turkey on the side of the road i'm like just quiet because we're always teasing each other i'm like whatever and i and i i didn't pay any attention i just thought he was messing with me so I drop him off and then I go back the other way and there was a giant, beautiful, like the most classic looking live turkey, like you'd picture in a cartoon. I mean...
If you drew a picture of a turkey that was like a beautiful artistic turkey, that's exactly what it looked like. And it was gigantic. It was amazing. So he was right. Anyways. And you were thinking Thanksgiving. You were thinking. Yeah, I was like, I was like, oh, that poor guy. You better.
He better duck and cover here pretty soon. Anyways. Dave Z, you missed Greg Amortis' turkey impression. You're going to have to listen. We may be able to get him to do it later, but you'll have to listen back to this episode when we started the call. Buddy, Greg Amortis. has the sound down. Wow. Down. I was going to say Watson. Greg Amortis is our very own dance monkey. He'll do it on command, I bet. All right. Shakma ain't got nothing on me, buddy.
Speaking of Shockma, I won't give any spoilers, but if you guys get a chance to see Gladiator 2, just saying, there might be a little bit of baboon action in there. Fake baboon. Fake CG baboon. Are they fighting it? Are they fighting a baboon in this movie? Multiple baboons.
See, this is my problem with this movie. I don't understand why people even have an interest in it. The first one was just a man fighting a man, right? It was combat sports gladiator style. This one, I saw the trailer when I was at the movies. I'm like... If this wasn't a jump the shark advertisement, I go, they're fighting freaking these giant animals. What the hell am I watching? I guess I'm the only one that found that weird because people seem to be loving this movie. I'm with you.
I'm with you. Thank you. I'm not seeing this garbage. It's fun and dumb. And for whatever reason. Can I say what other animals in it? Will you allow me? It's like a rhinoceros. Right. Okay. You said it. Dave Z said it. I saw it in the trailer. Yeah. So this freaking rhinoceros is dinosaur size. It's like. Like, guys, it is not a triceratops. It's a rhinoceros. It's just hilarious. Anyways, Greg Mortis, what are your Thanksgiving traditions this year?
I'm going to put my smoking jacket on. No, this year we're actually going to my mom's. So we're going to mom and dad's up in Mayberry. No kaggynaggy. Yeah, we'll have Thanksgiving up there. Eat some turkey. I would love to have some lasagna instead. That would be amazing. I will admit that. Mom makes a sick, multi-layered lasagna that just knocks you out of the world. Not pumpkin pie for me, though. No. Pearl will take it. But no, that's my big plan is just going up to see mom finally.
I don't get to see her about once or twice a year, so getting to see her makes it kind of special. Yeah. I'll finally get to see the kids. I haven't seen them in several months, so go up and see them. I say kids. They're adults now, but still. Yeah. Hang out on. few hours with them so that'll be interesting and uh yeah and as far as traditions the only thing we really do this is the third year in a row we had to do it early because we're going to be at my mom's but
One of our friends on Facebook, Mark Schiebel, we started this three years ago doing Casablanca. We watch it on Thanksgiving.
which has been very fun so this year we did it last night and we sit down and watch it he lives in North Dakota so it's basically we queue it up at the same time and we just text chat each other through the whole movie either cracking on it or you know crying on it or going oh you know because you know hunter bogart's so sweet and sexy and stuff so we just have a good time yep so that's been kind of our thing man just doing that the last few years so yeah wow fancy pantses i don't know yeah
long i love it that was his doing that was the thing he picked three years ago and it's just stuck so i said i had never seen it three up to three years ago and that was first time i'd seen it so now i've seen it three times so there That's a great film. Yeah. I love it. That's right. That's I think my, my favorite line in that is the, the sequence where it's like, um, He's saying something about...
no gambling. He's like, I'm shocked, shocked to find out that there's gambling going on in this establishment. And then they walk by and give him his, his winnings. It's so funny. But anyways, the line I like is, uh, of all the, of all the, lasagna joints in all the towns and all the world. She walks into mine. There you go. I think that's what he said. I don't know. No, actually my favorite line in that movie is the, uh, what's your nationality? I'm a drunkard. Yes. It's great.
Oh, what a good film. And if Doc Shock were here, man, he would be riffing right now on this. Yeah. Anyways. All right. Well, don't think I've seen it. Really? Okay. Well, put that on your list, man. One day, dude. I have a lot I have to put on my list, especially they have to do with like holidays and stuff like that. That every year I say, okay, this is going to be the year I'm going to watch it. And it just never.
Never comes to pass. I feel like Dave Z, I feel like you watch Survivor Series every year at this time. Yes. I really feel you do. Yes. Oh, I do enjoy the old school Survivor Series match. That's for sure. That's nostalgia. They used to literally have it on freaking Thanksgiving. Yes. It was great. Yes. And even Thanksgiving Day sometimes, right? Yes. Yes.
Freaking love it. Let me just, okay, real quick about Survivor Series because you guys got me going right now. If I were a dog, my back leg would be moving so fast right now. It's because I'm tickling it. Because I'm a good boy. So, okay. Here's the thing. You all know how much I love Royal Rumble. It's my favorite event. But my second favorite event is Survivor Series. Of course, right? And so, a few years ago, I found where you can order...
Like this whole set of the WWE Survivor Series. Of course, it was WWF back then. But anyways, it had like all these years. And you could order on DVD and it was very expensive, but I didn't care. I bought it because it was so worth it. It was gold to me. Well, it turned out that the discs were weird and messed up. it was such a heartbreak and I did some research and I guess from what I've read, like at least half, if not more than half of the, of that production of that whole set.
were messed up so a lot of people complained about that and the discs were messed up and then there were like the lucky few who they they were able to watch all theirs just fine no problem so I ordered the Wrestlemania. I've got all the Wrestlemanias in that original set. And there was a couple of those that kind of did the same thing. What you're saying, Jason. Oh, man.
Well, I have a three-second sad story about all of WrestleManias in a minute, but here's my Survivor Series sad story. So what did I do? Because I'm utterly and absolutely ridiculous. What would you do? I mean, I'm like, okay, if this is a 50-50 chance and I bought one set and it was corrupted... If I just buy another set, 50-50, I should get the one as if that's how statistics works. I was bad at math, okay? But anyways, so I purchased it a second time. That's how desperate I was.
And of course, it was corrupted as well. So stupid. Anyways, so if anybody knows how to find a set of the Survivor Series DVDs that are not corrupted, please let me know. Good luck trusting that. This is a great way to scam me because I will fall for it. Put it on Peacock for now. Can't you just stream it on Peacock for now? I know you like your physical media, as do I, but it's free on Peacock.
it's not free, but you know what I mean? It's on Peacock. Yeah. To be seen. Yeah. Yeah. By the way, in the meantime, I'm sorry. I'm all over the place. Dave Z what happened? To the WWE channel streaming service. What was the story on that? Did it die? The Netflix of professional wrestling for WWF? It actually continued to stay alive in certain countries, but not in our country because out here, Peacock absorbed it basically. And now in many other countries, Netflix.
is going to be taking all of that stuff on Netflix now. So basically what you see on the Peacock interface now is going to be on Netflix in other countries. In this country, they are only moving... Raw live to Netflix. As far as SmackDown and their other show and the other stuff, I don't know. I think Peacock is still going to be doing their thing, but I don't know. So it's really weird. It depends on the country.
And the particular, you know, program or pay-per-view or what the deal is. But yeah, you should just be all in the same place on their network. But they sold it. They got bought out. They've made so much money selling things over the last 10 years. That's why they – it's ridiculous. Ridiculous how much money they sold all their stuff for. Would you call them –
A bunch of whores. I would call them smart as hell. That's what I would call them. Okay, I'm just wondering if you had any resentment for that. Because I thought that was really exciting. Take the money and run. That's right. Well, my sad story, WrestleMania, and I promise we'll get underway. And it was circa 2013-ish. I was in Walmart. And my life was different back then. There was no buying two of anything. But they had all the WrestleManias.
Like the classic ones from the 80s at least. I think they had at least 12 of them or something. They had all of them on sale on DVD at Walmart and they were five bucks each. Wow. Did you guys remember that? Did you ever see that? And I was so tempted and excited. And I'm like, I should get all those. I love all those. But I'm like.
No, I could probably only get away with two. So I snagged my two favorites and that's it. But I regret that ever since. It's like not walking Angie Bowles home on Halloween that one night because I was such a freaking idiot. And I could have walked her home. Anyways, I know I just live, I live life just thinking about regrets all the time. It's great. So on that note, we're so happy.
We're so happy you're here, and we hope you're not regretting listening to this damn show. This is Jay of the Dead's new horror movies. The Thanksgiving lasagna horror movie podcast. Yes, thank you. Thank you. Okay, Jay of the Dead here. Real quick, just one last thing before we jump into our heretic review, I have something important to tell you guys.
Now, I typically don't subject you listeners to ads and we don't have any official sponsors, at least not yet, but we are open to it. So just write me at hauntingyourheadphones at gmail.com if you're interested. It's owned by my friend and former co-worker
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Are you interested in learning more about the Church of Jesus Christ? Come on in. We can't come inside unless another woman is present. My wife is home. Does that come? Great. You like pie? Yeah. My wife has pie in the oven. I could tell that you are a very spiritually curious person. I think it is good to be religious, to find your faith in a doctrine you actually believe. Well, our work here is done. I will go and check on the pie.
All right, Jay of the Dead here, and I am still joined by Mr. Watson, Greg Amortis, and Dave Z. Welcome, fellas. And we have a very interesting film to discuss. And it is the 2024 brand new release, relatively new, of a film called Heretic. There's so much to say on this, and I've been wanting, I have been busting, I mean, just coming out of my skin wanting to discuss this with people.
Because I feel like it's very close to home for me and it's very exciting to me. So we're going to start out, of course, with no major plot spoilers or anything in our discussion of Heretic. Just to begin. Post-production note. Actually, we decided not to go into any major plot spoilers for our review of Heretic. So even though we do discuss it for about an hour and 15 minutes.
Believe it or not, we don't go into any major plot points for this take one review. We will, however, at a future date, in a future episode, probably do a take two review where we go into major plot spoilers. Before we jump into any of the setup and anything, did any of you guys...
And I know you typically don't, but did you end up seeing trailers or hearing anything about this ahead of time? Does anybody have any preconceived things before you ended up seeing this film? Anybody? Nothing on my end. Absolutely nothing. I did not see anything and I didn't really hear anything other than it was supposed to be religious. That's all I heard. But other than that, I had no clue. OK, well, OK, so for me here in Utah.
where we have a huge population of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, aka Mormons, although we typically just go by... The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. However, and that is our official name, everybody. But two things I'll just say up front. I am a huge believer in everything. And yes, that's what I call it, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. But it is a little cumbersome to say over and over. And since I've said it three times now,
I'll just say LDS. Yes. That's right. I'll be confused with Dave Z's favorites of the substances, the LSD. Yeah, LSD. Very different. I need some LSD. with an LDS. You probably did. They will partake of this on Thanksgiving tradition. There we go. Well, the thing is, I'm 48 now. I'm 48 now. And I actually, I'm a convert. And I was baptized into the LDS church.
when I was 19 years old and I served a full-time mission, which pertains closely somewhat to this film. But anyways, I say all that and the people who are members of the church who happen to be listening to this will know. I say all that because we're definitely doing, our church is doing a very focused branding these days. And so our church leadership is encouraging us.
to always refer to the church as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints so people will know we are a Christian faith that it's about. centered around Christ. Because yeah, for the longest time, we got the nickname of Mormons because of the Book of Mormon. And so people just called us Mormons, but they didn't realize we were Christians. So that's just one little insight I'll put out there.
Again, for cumbersome sake, you know, so everybody knows we're referring to that. But anyways, I'm just, I wanted to be... And I'm probably already doing a terrible job of it. I wanted to sort of be, even though I'm not an official spokesperson at all.
For the church, of course, they would not hire me to do that or ask me to do that. But I just wanted to bring some additional insights maybe or just comments on... watching this because for so many decades and decades and decades, like our buddy Dave Becker, who's Catholic and raised Catholic. I mean, the horror has been kicking around Catholic. Catholic stuff, the Catholic Church. I mean, horror has done a ton with Catholics, but it has not done very much.
with Mormons, right? So, when we here in Utah heard, they're doing a mainstream horror movie starring Hugh Grant where two sister missionaries, that's lady missionaries, basically get drawn into a creepy, scary situation while they're out knocking on doors. Of course, we were all very intrigued by this. This is like super exciting.
And also like, oh, what are they going to do with this? Right? So anyway, that's just some initial setup. Any comments? I don't want to just keep talking and talking and talking. I fear I might if I don't shut up. Any comments about that before we get going? No. None for me. Well, I'll say something. Say it. Check this out. I saw this movie with my wife, and as we're driving home, she – and she was even telling me during the movie, I think. She was saying –
I don't think there's female missionaries. I said, I don't know. I said, but I have a feeling there must be if they're showing you in the movie. And I said, listen, when we get home. I'll text my friend Jay and I'll find out. But I have a feeling there are. So now we watch the movie. This is going on. Now we get out of the movie. We're driving home. My wife has a cousin who's.
My mother was LDS and raised her daughter as such. Her mother was from Utah, but her – but my wife's cousin was born in California where my wife is from. She knows that she knows a lot about it and everything else. So what happened was.
She called her on the way home because we're driving and I'm not going to text Jay as I'm driving. So she couldn't wait till we got home. So she called up and I'm going at it with her, not in a bad way or anything. I'm just like, I'm telling you, man, there are going to be female missionaries. I'm telling you. So anyway, she calls and she asks and sure enough, she says, yes, she is no longer a Mormon. But she did say.
That part, pardon me, LDS. I'm going to try to be good like that too, Jay. You won't offend me. It's totally fine. Go ahead. I know, but I still try to do things right. So she goes, well, here's the thing. She goes, she goes. The males have to do it as part of it. At least this is her experience. The females volunteer, and yes, there are female.
missionaries that do the same thing and my wife was saying yeah she goes I used to always make sure they got fed if they came and this or that because I know they're out there on their own and this and that and then she was having this whole conversation the woman said she goes no she goes they're well fed they get the food they get the
The LDS give them this and that. And she goes, don't think that they're out there starving and that they're abandoned. And anyway, she was talking all about that. And then we get home, we're talking some more, and she's talking about her experiences. She is no longer a, like I said, she left. And I don't know what the deal was, but she seems to have some resentment towards her former religion, whatever. So she was talking about it, and she goes, it's funny because when my wife called her.
She goes, yeah. She goes, we had just seen a movie and she asked, and the woman knew. She goes, oh, you saw The Heretic, huh? She said. She's like, yeah. She goes, how do you know? She goes, oh, I know. She goes, this and that. So I guess there is something to that, what you were saying. People that are connected knew about it. And then she went on to say, she goes, oh, did you know, by the way, that the two girls that played the missionaries are members of the church themselves? I said, what?
They go, yeah, they wanted to have something and this and that. They wanted to have more info. Well, I got home and I looked it up. They're both former members. They were both raising it and they are no longer. But they still had background. Yes. I thought I would add that to the conversation since you asked. Well, thank you.
May I piggyback off Dave Z here as so often happens when we're on the same call? Because, yes, perhaps the most important observation before we get into the movie itself I was able to make upon watching this movie is this right here. And I'll phrase it in the form of the. of a question where have these cute lady LDS missionaries been my entire life? And I was asking the same thing. Is this guys, is this really a thing? Cause over the years I've had dozens.
of missionaries knocking my door, LDS folk, Baptists, Jehovah's Witness folks, and they've – without exception been dudes uh and the occasional old old lady but the i'm just saying the lds church would have gotten me years ago if they'd sent a sister paxton to do the job just saying you want those recruitment numbers up which all of the evangelically inclined Christian faiths do, as opposed to the Jewish faith, which they just really kind of don't want you in, well then...
which Hugh Grant even brings up, by the way, we'll get to that. Then listen, you want those numbers up, send sister Paxton's and sister Barnes's and we'll be rocking and rolling. I'd have a family of 10 by now. Right on. Oh, I love it. I don't know. She's good, too. She was in The Boogeyman from last year. Was she? Yeah.
That's where I knew her, and anyway, we're getting ahead of ourselves there. I know we've got to set the movie up, but these are pre-film observations, and mine piggybacked right off of Dave Z, so I had to put it out there that like, yo, just – I love it. I love it so much. Yeah, everything you're saying is true. Yes. And I found that out as well, that they were former members of the church. And so they were able to bring some insights. Now, so Heretic was released.
What was it? November 8th. I just had it pulled up and then I closed it. Gee whiz. I believe it was November 8th, 2024, a wide release in the US. Again, I said I'm flying by the seat of my pants again. It's so weird. I've been wanting to talk about this for weeks. You know how my prep goes, Watson. It's like we never get the prep we want. Anyways, this was written and directed by Scott Beck and Brian Woods.
And we all know these are the writers of A Quiet Place. And Haunt. And Haunt. Yeah. And they wrote 65. as well. So I really like these guys, and I'm extremely curious. So when I first knew that this was basically the premise, and that is the premise, in essence, two sister missionaries knock on this door. of this very gentlemanly man played by Hugh Grant and the way that Hugh Grant can play a gentlemanly man with his...
English accent and everything, and he invites them in to discuss the gospel, and we get the sense that this becomes worrisome, right? Okay, so that's kind of the basic setup. But what I wondered when I was, when this came out. When I first heard that missionaries were going to be involved, I'm like, oh, okay, is this going to be kind of like with the strangers where they were just peripheral? Because at the end, you've got the two missionary boys.
And they didn't even really, because correct me if I'm wrong, you guys, aren't they extremely young in that? at the end of The Strangers when they first filmed that? How old were they approximately, Greg? You know those kids, right? Well, I met them one time, but they were young. I mean, I don't know. Probably. I don't know. They're pretty.
pre-adulthood. Yeah. I don't know how old. When I met them, they were probably, I'm guessing, 16-ish. And the movie had already been out, so I don't know. Honestly, I don't know. Yeah, because...
Because when I first saw the strangers, I'm like, yeah, those definitely look like missionaries, but they're too young because missionary age used to be 19 and up, and now it's 18 and up for males. And yes, something that... was said earlier and by the way you guys you guys won't offend me at all i we'll just talk straight about this and um so i because it'll be it'll be more fun and insightful i hope if i be able to give you this detail
Jay, I would bet none of us would aim to offend the fact that I don't think this – if I make it show my hand early, I don't even think this movie, when all is said and done.
is aiming for that. And I intend to get into that. Same, same. I absolutely agree. Okay. But, but yeah, there, it's like, it's just, it's ultra fun for me, I guess, on some level to have like, some additional insight to yeah you're the insider yeah and i'm not trying to be like oh i'm because i'm excited for kyle and mac to see this as well because also they haven't seen it yet but those dudes are also you know
know um same same boat is mac going to see it um yeah he should yeah he's he's very he's very curious about it and yeah he went should I do, too. I do, too. But, you know, it's funny because, and we'll get into this as well, but it's interesting how it may or may not affect people. But, yes, what was said earlier about the males, there is definitely... um it's an expectation like we we feel a duty for um the young men to go out and be missionaries
Um, but, but yeah, for young women, it's optional. It's between them and the Lord. So anyways, but I won't be PS. I won't be proselytizing on here. I'll just be trying to give straight answers like. as a semi-objective, in as much as that's possible, a semi-objective journalist. But anyways, so Scott Beck and Brian Woods, I was so excited when I saw they were behind this.
Okay. I'm going to take a pause and I'll ask you guys then. I'll, sorry, rated R, runtime, one hour, 51 minutes. And this is a... I would say a psychological thriller type horror movie. Do you guys agree with that for the genre breakdown? Okay. Anything you want to add?
Psychological, religious horror. Yes, religious horror. Yes. Okay, cool. That's fair. Okay, so that's just kind of a beginning of a setup. I'll save some other personal stuff for later. I've been talking too much. We'll start with Greg Amortis. What did you think? of heretic i loved it i thought the movie was amazing honestly and uh i know it's dialogue heavy so uh going into a movie
There's been some people in the group, Facebook group over at LOTC. Some of them were kind of, it's a little too dialogue heavy, and I get it. So if you are not into that thing, you're definitely not going to like this movie. But...
I think going into it as even a non-religious person, I think, can get something out of this. Now, I was raised Baptist to independent Baptist, okay? So a little bit different on some of the... A little bit more stern and strict on certain things than others, but still at the same time, I think the overall context of this movie...
really spoke man i'm sitting here questioning everything in my brain like as this movie keeps getting in i'm like wow this guy's really got me going through the ringer like am i going to go through disbelief door i don't know like uh Belief or disbelief? Don't make me choose. But I just thought acting was tremendous. Like, dude, Hugh Grant was so...
amazing in this movie is Mr. Reed. The way that he brought his innocence but yet his intellect to it was so freaking well done and i wanted to throw this out because uh talking with justin beam who is real good friends with scott beck and brian woods and uh he's done a piece on this for rumored magazine but The one thing that was mentioned was how long that this movie was in the making. And that's what really blew my mind was this is 10 years in the making. So, oh, they literally.
had an idea of doing a religious horror movie, uh, Scott Beck and Brian Woods and spent 10 years studying religions and studying, uh, all these different sects, whether it be Catholic or whatever, what you see in the movie, right? And it took him 10 years to finally say, okay, I think we're ready.
and then to know that they really wanted Hugh Grant for the star of the role and got him, and it's like, bam. I was just blown away after hearing that, and I didn't know that at the beginning. I didn't know it until after the movie, and then I'm like, wow. Uh, you could tell that they really put their homework in on this. Yes. Amen. And that's what I appreciated about this movie. It didn't feel phony to me. It didn't feel.
Hollywood to me. It felt real to me. I felt like, you know, I was with sister Paxton or, you know, I'm, I'm with, uh, or yeah, sister, I guess you call me a sister. I felt like I was right there with them. And, you know, and I'm going in the mazes or not scratch it, but I'm going into this house thinking, wow.
This guy's such a nice guy, right? And then I'm starting to get uncomfortable. I'm starting to pull my collar a little bit. This guy really knows his stuff, and maybe I don't know as much as I think I know. And I love where it went. And then by the end of this movie, man, I was just really, really just all invested, man. I'm going to be honest with you. It was...
So well done, man. And like Pearl said, it was done without disrespecting any religion. It was not done in a meaningful spirit. I don't think anybody can watch this movie and walk away and think. well, they really crapped on LDS or they really crapped on Catholics or they really, you know what I mean? Like they, they did it with respect at the same time. But the acting is so good in this movie, guys. Like I was just really.
mesmerized, hypnotized, and theologianized throughout this whole movie. I'm learning things that I know we'll probably get into in spoilers, something about some music. I don't know how far we want to get with that, but I was just... stuff i didn't even catch on while i was watching the movie and then when he said certain things i'm like oh crap i never put that together and
Wow. So there's so many things in this movie I just really want to get to. So I'm going to leave it there. I'm going to say I absolutely love this movie. And I'm going to let everybody else speak. But the atmosphere, the... Cinematography is amazing in this movie. It is so beautifully shot. It's so soft lensed. It's so warm. It's almost inviting. It's wholesome feeling and at the same time dread.
and and horror is involved so it just it got me in all avenues man i was totally enthralled in this one and man this one may definitely possibly be top three for me for the year I'm not going to say where it will fall, but it's definitely pushing for it. Amazing. Okay, thank you, Greg. Excellent comments. Watson, what say you, brother? Tell you what, Greg and Mortis and I are tracking.
This movie is impressive on a number of different levels. The filmmaking for one, which is to say the shot composition. Color grading, sound, these technical things, they are pitch perfect. This movie looks tremendous. I like how you said that, Greg. It's warm and inviting in the way that it is at first for – situationally for these girls and then it isn't.
You know what I mean? The set design most certainly plays into the film's aesthetic because this house where 95 percent of the movie takes place is a creepy, shadowy. The labyrinthian wonder, and the deeper you go into this house, the only way out being through, the more there is to discover philosophically, theologically, and story-wise the way the story is built.
is very much in keeping with the way this mysterious house is built. I, you know, I'll just, that's all I'll say about that. I don't want to say more than that, but the fact that this is the case is highly profound and extraordinary. So just hone in on that, folks who haven't seen it. Yes. The acting here in tandem with the character work is tremendous. Hugh Grant has possibly never been better.
And he's been great. I wouldn't be surprised if some award or another comes his way. Horror gets ignored. So, you know, maybe not, but, you know. I wouldn't I just let's just say if somebody if there were a nomination of a thing, I'd go. Yeah, I won't give much away with regards to his character, Mr. Reed, and what his motivations are. But as we slowly begin to understand what it is he's doing.
And even in the film's third act where it's all out on the table, his gentlemanly demeanor never wavers. His character isn't given to a lesser brand of sleaziness or perversion. This movie is not going for that. That's not what this story is. And Hugh Grant understands the assignment and knocks it out of the park. Additionally, sisters Paxton and Barnes, was it? Yeah, Barnes. Yes. Played by Chloe East.
And Sophie Thatcher are magnificent. Like we said before, they're both actresses who are former members of the LDS Church. And you can tell. that they brought this knowledge into these roles because they come across as 100% genuine. My best friend growing up was LDS, and sometimes I'd attend some youth group activity or another with him, and he'd do the same with my church. I'd hang with his church buddies and I've absolutely met these girls.
Like, you know, just five years younger than they are in this movie. And even into my adult life, I've always lived fairly close to the local LDS church. And my old church back when I was the drummer for the praise and worship band, this church was huge, often worked with them to put on.
Christmas programs and community events. It was an absolute blast. But the point of mentioning this was that I've been surrounded by LDS for most of my life. And going into this movie, I was feeling a little protective, if you will. Once I realized what this movie was about. Well, here's – and this is where the film gets extra marks. And then Mac and Kyle ruined it for you, and you're like, Mormons are jerks. I mean, yeah. I mean, definitely that little Mac.
But no, this is why I consider Heretic to be truly excellent because I went in going, oh, because I didn't know what this movie – I don't watch trailers. I don't do anything. I just went in. Once I was like, oh, okay, they're dealing with religion. All right. So this is why I was protective. The deal is that here in the West, Christian religions are easy targets. If you want to openly and purposely offend a group of people, Christianity is the lowest hanging fruit you can.
you can engage with you want to desecrate the iconography of the church you want to dishonor defile or pervert something the church holds a sacred no one cares put rihanna in a sexy nun outfit to make a sacrilegious or edgy statement on the cover of interview magazine no one gives a damn. Now, try replacing the sexy nun outfit with a sexy hijab and trust me, people will give a damn. Now...
There might well be interesting sociopolitical reasons and ideas as to why this is the case, that it's basically acceptable to pick on the church. The notion of punching up is probably the most compelling of these if you – If you buy into the progressive stack worldview with regards to power dynamics being between different social groups, I don't want to get lost in the weeds here because that can be an hour talk.
We're not going there. The point I'm trying to make about Heretic is that despite how easy and tempting it might be for Hollywood filmmakers to slam the church and its followers, including this specific church and its specific followers. This movie remarkably – and I can't believe this. This is why I was feeling protective. This movie remarkably never steps into that disrespectful or profane realm, just as Hugh Grant's Mr. Reed never descends to the level of a crass or bar –
barbaric type of antagonist when it would be the most convenient thing in the world to do. And especially when you consider the fact that he's an older man who's got these two beautiful younger women trapped in his house. This movie is taking the high road. with regards to these tropes that i cannot understate that i i i need people to understand that's the case and that's what this movie is doing it's walking a tightrope
There's a tightrope walk going on here that is nothing short of phenomenal. And so for me, this makes the movie truly great. A lesser script with an axe to grind, a lesser script that gives in to its most basal or lowest common denominator storytelling instincts. would not have been able to make this movie work at this level at this caliber and
Gosh, I feel like I could say a whole lot. My notes are a mess. You should see these bullet points. They don't make sense. I'll say this. The discussions going on at the heart of the film are provocative and compelling. I won't lie and say that I've found myself confronted by any brand new ideas or arguments that I haven't come across before. But that is not to say that what's here is handled in a stale.
or tired fashion. In fact, the way Mr. Reed presents his arguments to both us, the viewer, and to sisters Paxton and Barnes who are in the scene itself, it's quite profound. At one point, he – I think Greg – said the word and i'll just go slightly more than this he confronts the two of them using music as an example to make his point i won't say any more than that i i but i will say i found that to be a fresh way to argue this old
idea. In fact, I laughed out loud when the credits began rolling because I thought the song playing at first, you hear the acoustic guitar, I'm like... Oh, this is Mazzy stars fade into you. I love that song. Then the vocals begin. Turns out it's a version of aptly named knocking on heaven's door. How many iterations of that have there been? And that's a conversation for another time. Brilliant.
You know, right? But the title of it, the iterations, I see what this film was doing. And I said aloud to myself in a full house, I went, fucking clever. Okay. Well done. That's what I said to myself. And a little bit of trivia here. Sophie Thatcher, who plays Sister Barnes, was the singer at that end credit song. Awesome. Last thing I'll say, back to the religious arguments at the center of the film. What struck me and piqued my interest evermore was when one of the sisters would push back.
against Mr. Reed's points. As this movie began progressing through the first act, I thought I was about to find myself sitting through an hour and – what was this, 51 minutes did you say, Jay? Yes, I believe. Yeah. I thought I was going to be sitting through an hour and 51-minute long anti-religion lecture. I can go to Facebook for that. I've read Dawkins and I can go to Sam Harris. I can go find that easily and including find some great meat on the bone that would inform this film too.
There is an actual dialogue happening here. This is not a speech going middle fingers up to the LDS or to anybody else who is a part of an organized religion. There's a conversation here. And I celebrate that. Now, Mr. Reed is so careful and deliberate, and the script wants you to know this in a variety of ways. But he is fallible, and despite his studies, despite the upper hand he has as an older, more learned man.
Also as a bigger, stronger man than these two small, you know, innocent young girls as the one with keyword being control. Just leave it at that. Things don't happen the way he expects all the time. And this is what makes the film strong in my eyes. And that's why I think this is a brilliant movie that is doing more than.
you know, pointing fingers and calling names. So that's, that's where I am on this thing. Loved it. Amen. I agree with 98% of what you said. And it's just because that other 2% would be just things that. somebody of the faith would pick up on, which is honestly, and I understand this, and that's what I hope to bring to this review. It is not really appreciable from the view of approaching this film.
as just an average viewer out there in the world but but i i just thought it might be fun for listeners to hear some some things but i'll come percent yes i believe i could even justify Okay, okay. Maybe. Okay, maybe, maybe. That'll be interesting. Okay, so we'll come back around to that, but Dave Z.
But first of all, I just want to say thank you, Watson. That was very eloquent as always. Dude, I've been champing at the bit ever since I saw this to say some approximation of the BS I just said. I loved it. I loved it so much. Thank you. Okay, Dave Z, what do you got for us on this? Well, okay. It's going to be tough to follow these two. I know, right? Yeah, I...
But I'll tell you what. This is actually going to be easy because half my work is done. Okay. I'm going to agree. I'm going to agree with a lot that was said and a lot of the compliments. But I will add this to it. It seems that most of the compliments and most of the stuff that was discussed was all stuff from the first half of the movie. And that I agree with. and that's where i'm going to differ a little bit to me this was a tale of two halves and i was glued to act one
And I can repeat everything everybody said about the production values and the acting and Hugh Grant and the dialogue. And particularly for me. The whole spiel on different organized religions and the board games and everything else and some of the stuff which I already knew. I'm watching different things and researching and some things that made me think a little. But the thing is, for me, I really appreciate people that are of their faith, that are true blue.
and do what they want to do or have to do for their said church, and they aren't judgmental. And they are just people of faith that are genuinely good people. I'm happy for them. I'm happy that their religion works for them. And I'm happy that they aren't doing anything wrong with it. In the same respect. My personality and the journey I've had in life with Faith is not too dissimilar from Hugh Grant's in this movie.
And I actually had a big grin on my face when he was talking about the different types because I went through the same journey. He even said, he goes, I tried to find the one true religion. I looked at the – and basically he said I was able to poke holes in each one. manner of speaking and unfortunately for myself that is something that i've had uh issues with even though i i do have faith i don't subscribe to um any denomination
And I pretty much have a problem with all of them if I'm being completely honest about it. But again, I have no issue. I'm happy like Jay and anyone else that has faith and are just good people and whatever. God bless them. You know what I mean? I love it. I'm happy about that. But I have a different take on a lot of the stuff. So that stuff was like, you know, I had a big grin about that. I appreciate it. And my wife is an ectomy, and she is.
She has faith like me, but she was also raised Catholic. But still kind of holds on to some of those values where I am a little bit more antagonistic about my former crew. So she looks over at me and she knows that I'm just like, yep, he's right. So I was having fun with all of that stuff and I was really enjoying his comparisons. But aside from that, I enjoyed the movie for what was going on and for the minute.
these two girls show up obviously you're thinking okay what's good and i was hoping they were going to swerve me a different way but it's okay because my wife's like oh i don't want to say anything spoiler but she's like oh Oh, obviously. I go, no. I said, that would be too obvious. I think they're going to swerve us, and there actually is going to be a – without saying the word and this and that. And it turned out it wasn't that, and it still was.
There were still nefarious things at play here in what seems to be a straightforward manner. But all the conversations they had. Especially with the two girls, what I loved about that was that the one that I didn't think was going to be so pushy about staying with belief. And I really love seeing these two girls with their two different personalities and how they respond to it. And if they fight back or if they just try to get through and say, I don't want to argue because it's a waste of time.
Both ways, there's pros and cons, but these two women had two different personalities when it came to having to deal with a conflict like this where it's just – there's two things going on. There's discussions of faith and whatnot, and there's also – discussions of general safety and life you know what i mean so all the stuff's going on i really really enjoyed it hugh grant who i don't have a lot of history with i've seen layer the white worm once and i saw that waka movie
Last year, he apparently was the Oompa Loompa. I've never watched a Hugh Grant movie. None of his movies have ever appealed to me. So I know of him. I just – I didn't know what kind of actor he was. But I'll tell you what. This was a great way for me to really discover him because he did have a great performance. And of course he's going to be snubbed. So don't even think. Come on. If you don't know that by now. Of course. The only reason I.
say that just because he's the romantic comedy guy yes right you don't know apparently i guess you might not know that about him he's the you know the slick british romantic comedy guy you can't help but love and then here he is here oh yeah you're right he's gonna get snubbed if tony did, he's going to. Two quick notes on that though. As my beloved Italian friend, if I were to recommend a Hugh Grant movie to you...
I would recommend Mickey Blue Eyes, which is like a kind of a mob riff, but comedy. It's also romantic comedy. Right. And I think you might find that amusing. But I think... Tell me if this is right or wrong, but in terms of his best or perhaps most popular romantic comedy, maybe Notting Hill, would you guys say?
Yeah, Notting Hill or what's the one he did with Drew Barrymore? That's the one I was thinking. Yeah, Bridget John. Isn't there a one with a – No. Oh, shoot. There's that. No, no. What's the one I'm thinking of? The pop goes my heart. About a boy? Because About a Boy is maybe one of his best. Is there a number in it? Music and lyrics is the name of that movie. Music and lyrics, thank you. Wow, he came up with that fast. Wow, Greg. Good job, Pearl. Okay, Greg.
Yeah, right. Sure it was Pearl. Yeah. Sure it was. I have seen it multiple times. I will not lie. Dude, I like that movie. I don't lie either, man. I do like it. You're right, Davey. Wasn't the movie a nine in the title? Or a number? Yeah, nine months. Nine months. It's a baby movie. That's the movie I knew with him in it. Nine months. If you would have asked me last week.
That's what I would have been my answer. Nine months would have been my guess. But for your next two date nights that you want to do a romantic comedy type Hugh Grant movie, Mickey Blue Eyes, Notting Hill. Just saying. Go ahead. Sorry, I didn't mean to derail. Oh no. Well, I'd Mickey blue eyes. I have a little, I like the mom movies, but I've never even seen analyze this or isn't that weird that I love mob movies and all that stuff, but I'm not into making.
comedy out of it yeah same what i can say i'm like that too maybe even freaking steve martin who's one of my favorite comedians ever was in a movie like that Where he was playing a mob boss, but it was comedy. My Blue Heaven. My Blue Heaven. My Blue Heaven. There you go. Wow, two blues. My Blue Heaven and Mickey Blue Eyes. That's right. That's right.
Yeah. OK, so let me get to the only thing that's going to be different from what anyone else has said. It's a tale of two halves for me. And when we get to the second half, I was expecting something more. grandiose, I guess. Something more of a vooom. And ultimately where it played out, I'm not sure I 100% get the character's endgame for doing it. And then...
Something happened with something being beneath the skin, which I'm like, OK, what's this all about? Does this really exist? And are you really going to try this? Either way, I still enjoyed the second half. I was okay with it, but maybe because it's 824, I don't know what it is. I was just expecting after all that great first hour. And the tension that was just so unbelievable was right up my alley. I was really expecting something.
I guess bigger than what we got something it was fine it just kind of let me down in the direction it was going I was into it so much so I guess that's my problem you know what it reminds you of the situation do you guys remember when a movie came out called um antlers yes a few years back and at the time it was like it was kind of like
There was buzz about it and everything else. And it was supposed to be another another type of part in the term, but an elevated horror movie when they were really starting to make a splash. And I remember being excited about it based on the buzz. And when I watched Antlers. That's the feeling I had when it was over. I was like, yeah, you know, it's pretty good, but I was expecting something else. I was expecting a little more grand. And that's ultimately what happens to me in this movie.
I think it's a pretty good flick. I just wish I had the passion that it appears. I'm guessing Jay is going to be on board as well because I know a lot of people on Letterboxd and whatnot have his rated pretty high. I wish I felt that way about it, but the second half just didn't, it just, I don't know, it was cool. It just wasn't enough.
I guess. And I hope you guys can get what I'm saying. It's the easiest way I can convey it. It just wasn't enough. No, I see what you're saying, Dave Z, because that second half. opens itself up to possibilities like you're talking about of something grandiose, if you will, and then it goes a different way.
And if you have that expectation of the grandiose, you could be let down. Now, thankfully, and I guess for whatever reason, I was so in the moment. And I mean in the present moment with this movie. I wasn't looking ahead. So I never got that expectation. It was not let down in that same way.
This movie does lend itself to that. So it's not like you're not saying anything random and or foolish by having those expectations. I see exactly where you're coming from, man. Yeah. OK. Yeah, and Dave Z, I do have a one-liner for you, maybe when we're done recording or at some point, because I don't know if we'll do our spoiler section today or not on this, to be honest, because I'm wondering if we should save a spoiler section for later.
for a second take you know i don't know i don't know but i like that but putting putting that aside thank you putting that aside though i do have a one-liner we could say when we're done recording that might that may or may not help probably not but anyways Okay. Okay. I'm all ears. I love this, you guys. So I want to recognize and admit up front that I think part of my experience of this, obviously.
is 100% like subjective because of how much personal baggage I'm carrying into this movie for one thing. But having said that, let me just say up front, I'm just going to do something unconventional here. I'm going to tell you, I'm a 7.5 on this movie. 7.5 out of 10. And I do think it's worth seeing in the theater. And I'm going to buy it. But what's weird is... Some bizarre coincidences happened to me as well, if I may. So right before going to see this.
I met up with two dear friends. I won't say their names because you may or may not know them. But I met up with two dear friends here locally and we went to lunch together. And these two dear friends. used to be members of the LDS faith, and then they left the church. And in fact, I met them at... church. That's how I became dear friends with them is at church. And we have remained friends, but they have left. But we're sitting there at lunch.
And we're getting ready to go see this heretic movie. And of course, they're engaged and involved because it's, like I said, in Utah, I don't know about everybody, but a lot of people were really intrigued what they were going to do. But they start talking, you know, these people who have left the church are disenchanted. So every once in a while, they'll make little snide remarks or jokes. And they're usually respectful to me because they know I'm still, you know, a member of the faith.
But you know how friends rib each other. So they were talking about some material that weirdly ends up coming up in the movie. That was such an odd, bizarre coincidence. So that was one weird thing. And during the film, I'm sitting in between these two. And as the film opens, I just want to state this. And I'm not, I promise you, I'm not saying this. In a defensive manner. Because as I mentioned. When it was all said and done. The movie was over. I'm like you know. The horror genre has been.
You know, they've been working with the Catholic faith in horror movies for decades and decades. So, I mean, I... I don't need to be too sensitive and too precious, you know, just because it's kind of exciting that they use my faith in a horror film. Because, guys, I thought, I really thought that's where I was before. I thought there was going to be just a... mere peripheral look because, okay, they need some religious people who are proselytizing.
type missionary folk and it's like okay we got we got jehovah's witnesses we got mormons you know like it's like and i thought maybe they just chose us because we you know and i thought that was all it was gonna be is just a mirror like I guess, plot device to get these two young women in this dude's house. And then from there, is this going to be a full-blown horror movie? But no. And if any...
LDS listeners are hearing this who haven't seen this movie. No. In fact, what Greg Amortis said was right on the money about how much... Scott Beck and Brian Woods obviously did in their research because I'm telling you, and this is the best part for me, you guys. As a missionary, I served a full-time mission and I knocked on doors like this. And I met, I'm not kidding you, I met people just like this dude. Now, not quite as far and as scary as he is. Obviously, this is a horror movie.
So it didn't go quite that far. But let me tell you, I met a number of people like this who were very educated, really up on their homework. humble seekers of truth and or sometimes antagonists. And they would invite us in and put us through our paces to see what we had. And so... So much of this was absolutely 100%. It's like, I've been Sister Barnes. I've been Sister Paxton, you know? And another thing, let me just tell you, is that...
The way this companionship is set up, they're called a companionship. Sister Paxson is obviously the senior missionary. Wait, really? Yeah, Sister Paxton. Yeah, the girl wearing the black with the short hair. Wait, wait. No, no, no. Sister Paxton is the Anna Kendrick. Oh, okay. I had it back. Sorry. They look so different. She was the subordinate. No, let me see. So the girl who's very, the girl who's diminutive. Girl for the boogeyman. What'd you say?
The girl from The Boogeyman. Yeah, let me – Chloe – Well, yeah, you're right. One girl was in charge. Sophie Thatcher. Yeah, let me – do I have them wrong from the pictures? Let me see. It was my impression that Sophie Thatcher was the more experienced of the two of them. Yeah, the girl wearing –
The girl wearing the black is the senior companion. She's more experienced. That's Barnes. Oh, is that Barnes? Paxton was the girl who looked like Anna Kendrick a bit. Oh, I'm so sorry. Anna Kendrick is the queen of the white girls. i love her right right that's right she can drink a pumpkin spice i bet yeah
Well, forgive me, everybody. I'm sorry. I was looking at their IMDb photos, and it just totally has thrown me off, and I didn't have the character names. Well, they look different in their photos. Yes, yes. Okay. So, so sister Barnes is the senior companion for sure, for sure. And that's, that's the companion who's like the, the leader of the two and the little bit more experienced.
And then the other gal, I mean, they had this right on the money, and that's why I wasn't surprised when I heard they were members of the church previously, because the other gal is almost cliche, sheltered. Utah Mormon missionary gal. I love her. Yeah, because there are tons. They're just like that. So initially, and I just want to say this non-defensive, but I want to put it out there. The first 10 minutes of this film, I was not expecting.
The first 10 minutes of this film, the first 10 minutes, it opens with these two girls talking privately, these two missionaries. And they're talking about very frank discussions of things. Yeah. And I'm telling you. Were you worried when that started that way? Well, I won't say worried, but I was like rolling my eyes because everybody in the theater snickering here in Utah, especially my two buddies on my right and my left. And they're all laughing because these these two girls.
are having this conversation that I'm telling you, sister missionaries would not have. Now, do women talk about such things? Yes. Absolutely they do. I guarantee you they do. But let me just tell you. One awesome thing about this movie, and I'm going to try to back up what I'm saying here, is that there are two different types of missionaries, just to be very general. There are missionaries who have been...
You know, who feel the obligation, like for young men, a lot of dudes go on a mission because they feel like they'll have trouble getting married and finding a girl. If they don't serve a mission because they will be looked down upon. So for some people, there's this obligatory pressure to do it. Now, some people go because they're.
converted and excited and they really want to share the gospel. And that was me. I was a new convert and I really wanted to go. And so when I got out there on my mission and I discovered that there were these lackadaisical people who really didn't want to be there. It was a huge eye-opener and a shock to me. Anyways, I mention all this to you is because I think one huge smart move they did in this film is they have two earnest missionaries.
Like the two missionaries here aren't like slacker missionaries. They're legitimately trying to do a good job, which is important. And knowing that I will say to sister missionaries, because we, one thing we believe is to. when we're on our mission is to try to be as
as wholesome and as close to the spirit as possible to get guidance from God. And so they would not be having this conversation. Now I, I knew I realized, I realized, okay, they're, they're, they're just making light. They're making a little, they're doing. little razzing and that's fine. And then they start walking and they're still talking. Now, this is a true story. This is something that missionaries actually do. They made this joke as they're going up these stairs carrying their bikes.
They made this joke about working hard on their mission. And the more you work, then there's a joke that we male missionaries called elders. that we always make it's like if you're a hard-working missionary the harder you work the hotter your wife is going to be And that is true. Now, that isn't a Mormon belief, by the way. That is not something that Mormons teach doctrinally. But missionaries joke about it, right?
So, I'm just saying. And I've never heard sister missionaries make that joke or say that, by the way. So, the fact that not only do they make... They make that joke, but I don't know if you remember what they say. They say something extremely vulgar that, by the way, I don't think... I think middle-aged women become aware of the vulgar thing they're talking about. And I say vulgar in a very playful way here. I'm not really offended. But I'm just saying...
That, that, that, that stuff was just BS. And I'm like rolling my eyes and I'm in the, the film's beginning. I'm like, Oh, are they going to, is this going to be like make fun of Mormon's movie? It's like, okay, here we go. See, that's, that's why I asked you, were you worried? I was. And that's why I was protective.
They had that same feeling. The only reason I'm saying all this is not to be defensive, but I want to tell people who might be listening, who might be members of the church, who didn't know if they were going to see this or not. Hang in there because the film is genuinely earnest. But there's one more thing I got to cover real quick. In this beginning 10-minute sequence...
Let me see. I'm just I'm just I'm dealing with things that are in the movie. This is in the beginning of the movie. And I'm saying this not because of the spoiler thing. I'm saying this because of the faith aspects. There is a joke. There is a bit about the. What do they call it? Magic underwear, right? Oh, I was going to ask you about that because I never knew. Yes. And so, so, so yeah, let me just say it. No, this is great. This is great. So I have no idea. Well, here it is. Like the unicorn.
Here it is. So we have two different kinds of buildings. We have our regular church buildings, which is a chapel where we go on Sunday to regular church meetings and Sunday school and all that stuff. And then we have very special buildings called temples, and that is a place of worship where we go to pray and to make covenants with God. And when Mormons go to the temple, they can... They receive temple garments, which is a, and yes, I wear garments.
all the time. And this is a sacred thing. It's not secret, it's sacred. Now, I'm not giving you a missionary spiel right now, I promise. I'm just, I'm shooting straight with everybody listening. Now, it is sacred. to us and so when when like on the internet though there have been people who've left the church and people who don't like the church who've like take a picture so you can see garments everywhere on the internet and everything like that
But it is, it's out there. But just so people know, it is very disrespectful to a Mormon or a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. To like joke about, well, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, we don't joke about our garments or our magic underwear as they call it in the movie. So the fact that in this film... They have that incident where they show garments.
that I was a little bit, like, taken aback by it because I'm like, whoa, they went there? That's kind of a little bit of a low blow. I mean, I wasn't, like, offended, but I'm like... Man, we could see this on the internet. Why did they put that in there? But that's fine. I just want to tell people, once we get past that first 10 minutes, then it's very earnest. And I was shocked, you guys. The way they talk about their rules about, okay, they don't want to go in and talk to him.
alone, that he needs to have, you know, another person present, like his wife needs to be present. And so the way that he gets around various rules, now I was a rule keeper on my mission.
And the way that this film unfolds is exactly how it goes down because you do have people say, oh yeah, my wife's just in the... kitchen she'll be here in a minute and you do you make you have to make concessions from time to time especially if it's raining and and somebody actually wants to talk to you because i'm telling you 99 times out of 100 they slam the door in your face
And so if somebody wants to talk to you and they're nice, it's like, okay, so that stuff is all real, you guys. And then when we actually see a Book of Mormon in this and they open the Book of Mormon. And they show the Book of Mosiah, which is one of the books in the Book of Mormon. I was absolutely stunned. And yes, they did their homework. So all of this to say, this film has, aside from the goofy, crass, vulgar stuff in the beginning, it has a lot of accuracy to it. And even some of the...
objections that he's putting up are things that I would hear often. So I admired the film a lot and I wasn't, I wasn't ultimately offended at all. I was like, I appreciated the fact that they did so much homework and because, because the debate. the philosophical debate of faith and doubt and belief and disbelief is so earnest in this. I think the film is profound and I think it's valuable and I really love that.
Okay, I'll shut up there. I am so happy to hear you say that. I wish Dr. Bishop were here because I could drop a name, and the name I'm going to drop is Joseph Campbell. And the reason I'm dropping that name is because there is a point where – at which Hugh Grant gets into a very beautifully put – or not beautifully put, well-orchestrated – that's the – right term uh diatribe about different religions and the different um
You know, the board games and the songs. And there is a way there's a way you could argue that back to him in the two. In the case to stand for, to be, you know, Christian apologetics to go, well, this actually proves my stance as a Christian. There's a way to argue that back at him. And they didn't do that in the movie, but I was sitting there in the theater going, I didn't know we were going to this level of debate. And as somebody who is pretty – not the most well-read on this, I have a –
I'm one class away from a religious studies minor, and the only reason I didn't finish it is because I broke up with this girl and anyway, whatever. I didn't want to go back to the class, so I didn't get the credit. But I know a little bit of this stuff, and I'd be like, oh, okay. Well, Hugh, that's awesome that you said that. Well, here's how I can turn that back around on you to prove this. Or to at least philosophically prove this. And this movie's open for that discussion. It's not...
Pointing a finger at your dumb LDS dorks. It's going. It isn't right. Take it that way. I do believe you should. Be careful. in that anger and that offense and go you know what i think this movie is doing something more than that yeah and then you can embrace it that's just in case there are people in that church who are hesitant to see this or who you know you know maybe saw it and felt like oh man i felt targeted yeah you were targeted
But in my final thoughts, I'll say why I think that's a good thing. Well, yeah. And I think that people of faith might feel like that's the thing is and that's why I love this film. That's why I love St. Maude as a horror film, because.
Those two films, this one and that one, both kind of bring the wrestle of faith up to your face. See, a lot of exorcism films have that. It's become kind of a... that trope has become a cliche it's like we have the priest but does the priest have enough faith to you know but like this has done something fresh this and Saint Maude I think where it's like Okay, you're devout and you're committed.
And it really puts you through your paces, puts that to the test. But let me let me just say this with regards to St. Maude. Yes, this could go crazy because I know Dave Z has a different take on St. Maude than I do. And I've never. heard his take so i i have to put that aside because one day i really want to um but do you feel like saint ahmad's devout character
is seen with the same compassion and the same nuance as the devout nature of our sisters Barnes and Paxton in this movie because I don't. No, no, I don't either. Okay. I had to put that out there. I'm with you. I'm with you on that. Okay. So, okay. Here's what we'll do. I know we're like an hour on this review and I don't want to cut anybody off or anything.
But if you guys are cool with this, we'll do final thoughts and ratings. And then I have a scary mission story, true story to share with you. that involves me and some sister missionaries in a scary house if you want to hear it so baby okay okay right all right we are a horror podcast yeah hell yeah so anyways um okay Oh, yeah, a lot of Mormons don't swear like I do, but I only do little cusses.
And I do it for comedic effect. Just saying, right, Pastor Matt? Pastor Matt always jokes that I say little cusses. And you don't wear magic underwear, so you're okay. No, I do wear magic underwear. I'm okay with that. Send pics. Greg does too. I know. Just ask Pearl. It's very magical. I don't wear any. It's a unicorn. I'm just saying. Here we go. As I said, for me, this is a 7.5 out of 10.
I was very impressed with Heretic. And I will say this. I was glad that it just so happened because he wasn't with me. Otherwise, I definitely would have taken him. I was glad I didn't take Spawn of the Dead to this without being able to give some sort of preparatory primer. Now, believe it or not, I mean, I bet people will be skeptical out there, but this is the truth for me. I was able to...
I was given the freedom by my parents to choose my faith and to follow my own path and what felt right for me. And believe it or not, I have that same feeling about my kids. Now, Spawn is... My son, he is 16. He's two years away from being 18, and he is planning on serving a full-time mission as well thus far. And I'm not forcing him or anything like that. He genuinely wants to go.
Having said that, I was glad he wasn't with me on a cold watch coming out of nowhere on this because I think this film would have been like... pretty wild for him and I you know when he does watch this I'll probably do a little bit of primer just to kind of prep him for some things but then you know he can make his own decision but I just wanted to put that out there in case there are people listening who's like
Okay, well, should this be a family movie? It's like, no, this isn't necessarily a family home evening movie, which is family home evenings in LDS. That's our Monday night family night thing. But anyways, 7.5 out of 10. And I say, yeah, this is worth seeing in the theater. And I say, buy it. And I really, really, really want to have a take two discussion where we do in-depth spoilers and we got to get Dr. Walking Dead.
and Macula in here as well, as well as anybody else who wants to join us, but also having their perspective. So there you go. Greg Mortis, what say you, brother? Yes. I'm kind of in between a 9 to a 9.5, so I'm going to just bump it to a 9.5 personally. I had zero problem with it. And the only problem I did have, I think, is somewhat maybe where Dave Z's at on that second act.
There's a little bit of thing that takes place over there that kind of, but overall, other than that, man, this was just me. mind-blowing uh for pearl it's a nine out of ten for her uh i'll read what she gave me but i can't read the last part because we're not doing a spoiler part but i'm gonna ask you guys off air for this part but anyway she said she loved every reference and details given even including the blueberries that have a meaning guys and Hugh Grant was amazing
Do you have belief or disbelief? No matter what you chose, it's what you bring with you within. Yes, there is a significance to the blueberries, guys. It's often used in rituals to invoke blessings, protection, and good fortune. Nice. The deep blue color of the berry symbolized the sky or the divine realm.
And their sweet taste was associated with abundance and prosperity. Blueberries were also believed to possess healing and prosperity, both physical and spiritual. And yes, blueberries plays a part in this movie ever so slightly. So there you go. So with her, it's a 9 out of 10. And I will absolutely own this movie and look forward to watching it again now with fresh eyes because going into the theater, I've only seen it once. Cold watch, like you said, Jay, I would absolutely.
I don't know. I would maybe even give up a movie or two to be able to be in the same theater with you watching it with Spawn of the Dead. I think it would be awesome. Brother, let's do it. That'd be a crazy time. But anyway, I absolutely love it. I'm going to go 9-5 on it. Awesome. Okay, thank you. All right, Dave Z, what say you? You know, it's funny, when you talked about the blueberries, you know the connection I thought?
When you said blueberries, I was thinking of like a six degree type thing. And the first thing I thought of was how, what's his name? How Hugh Grant played the Oopa Loopa in the last Wonka movie. And in the original Wonka movie, what happened? with blueberries and Violet Beauregard. Yes, and he's in Mickey blue eyes and the other blue thing. Wow, my blue heaven. Stand by me. Yes. Music and lyrics. So there you go. Yes. Wow. It's all about the blues. I guess that's why they call it the blues.
Nice. That is one of the best Elton John, Bernie Taupin songs in existence. It's a great, it is a solid tune. I dig it. Yeah. So. Back to this movie. I'm with you, Jay, actually. My rating is also a 7.5. I would say go to the theater to see it. And if you wait and it comes home, that's something I would consider a high-priority rent. But because of what I have, my issues with the second half –
And these kind of movies aren't for everybody. They have a lot of dialogue as well. So it's almost like give it a test run and then go from there. But really good movie all around. I might go see it again, actually, to be honest. But yeah, I enjoyed it. Great. Thank you. All right, Mr. Watson, bring it home. You know, now that I've had a few days to sit with this film and ponder it.
I find myself remembering some lectures I'd attended back in my college days. I'd go to a lot of these when they'd offer them, especially when I could get in free. And one of my favorites was a live debate between two physicists. on free will versus determinism. This was, gosh, like what, 2012, 2013? In fact...
It's funny. Sam Harris's book, anybody who knows that name, Free Will, might have just come out at the – I need to fact check that. It might have been the reason for the lecture. I wonder if he was the guy who was arguing for determination, determinism. But Free Will is a tough one.
Tough thing to argue intellectually. Many do manage to pull it off, but it seems easier to me to do with the likes of Harris, Alex O'Connor, Richard Sapolsky, to name a few have done, which is argue in favor of causal determinism. I'm not saying that's my stance, but I'm bringing this up because this movie is definitely speaking to this grand debate. And I can't wait to watch Heretic again, knowing where it's going to see how it handles this underlying theme.
Now, as far as what this movie is going for in a religious sense, I find it rather rewarding and intriguing, especially when we get to the final scene of the film. There's a visual there, something suggested, and I wonder. What is being said there in terms of personal relationships with God and miracles and these sorts of things. There's a lot going on here. This is the sort of film where I wish all of us horror Avengers saw it together.
All 10 of us. Then went out for drinks afterward to talk it over. And if any of you out there can manage such a thing with your fellow film-loving friends, then by all means do so. I, gosh, I wish I could be like, you know, somebody brings up, oh, when Hugh Grant said this about the music and the iterations, and I have stuff. Oh, I have stuff. Nice. That you wouldn't think of me because I'm not a very good Christian at all.
And I understand this about myself, but I'm also fine with it to the degree that you can be fine about being bad at something. Anyways. Ironically, it's the best Christians who end up saying that usually. But anyway, go ahead. Well, thank you, sir. I am devout in my own strange ways.
This movie wants you to question your beliefs. It wants you to wrestle with them. And as a believer myself with a capital B, but like I said, I'm a bad Christian, guys. If you do not occasionally wrestle in question, you become complacent. lose sight of why you believe what you believe. Are your beliefs the result of forces you can't control, like where in the world you were born or into which family you're born? Would I still be what I am if I were born in...
India or this place or that place or that place. There's something they call that. And was it the – what is it? The something – oh, it's almost – it's almost Rawlsian Vale of Ignorance was that. That or is that something else? Anyways, I won't get into these things. I mean have you ever looked at an issue you have with your faith and just interrogated it under a microscope? Have you ever turned around on something significant that you once believed? And if you have, has your attitude –
Is your attitude good or bad about that? Has your faith been affirmed and strengthened? Have you seen a miracle? Even as we go through these trials and tribulations of life, what gets burned away? in that refiner's fire when we're put to the test, and then what's left strong after the fact. That's what's important. And I feel like this movie is proposing this line of questioning. And for that, I love it. 9.5 out of 10.
This is going to be high on my end of your list. Nice. Oh, I'm loving this. Cool, man. All right. Well, thank you all. And let's do a take two review. And if you guys have time, I'll do a very quick. horror story from my mission it's true story if you have time if you don't that's that's fine you can jump oh hell i'm here for it man okay all right so
I served my mission in Tucson, Arizona, which covered southern Arizona, like the southern third of Arizona, the southern third of New Mexico, and El Paso, Texas at the time. Arizona-Tucson mission. And I was Elder Piles, you know, just like they have Sister Barnes. I was Elder Piles. And so Mac was Elder Robbins. And anyways, it's really, really awesome. So. In my mission, I was, at this time, I was serving in Silver City, New Mexico, actually. And I was over...
I was given a leadership position over a small district. So it was me and my companion, as well as two sister missionaries. And of course... We live separately from the sister missionaries, but we would have like district meetings and stuff. And if the sisters needed something or whatever, it was my responsibility to try to help them out with things. Well, people who...
even aren't members of the LDS church will know that like, we're, we're kind of known for our commercials. We have a lot of family type. heartwarming commercials. And a lot of times we'll give out these free videos or books of Mormon or free Bible, like we do that stuff. So during my mission, which is in... This was in 1997, so it's been a while. But during my mission, they were giving out these free things. Well, in the sister missionaries, in their geographical area that they were covering,
There was one of these media referrals where they had to deliver a book that someone ordered. I think they ordered a Bible. And so they had to take it out, but it was way, way out. in their geographical area kind of in the boonies and they were nervous about getting lost so they asked us to accompany them and so my companion and i went with the sisters to go deliver this
Well, we finally arrive and it was way, way out there. We finally arrive and this is in the New Mexico desert. So if you're picturing like the yucca plants and everything. It's about, I don't know, six o'clock in the evening, you know, and it's starting to kind of, the sun's starting to go down a little bit. And there's this like a Pueblo type house. Um, it's got a flat roof and the windows are open and the front doors open and the TVs on it inside. And it is blaring like full blast blaring.
Which is always the case, by the way. Like when you walk in, like when they walked into this dude's house and it's all dark and weird and like, yeah, it's like that. It really is like that. You go into people's houses and you just have no idea what you're going to. encounter anyway we go up to this door and we're trying to get people's attention the door is wide open and the music's so loud they can't hear us knocking at all but nobody can hear and obviously
We would never walk into somebody's house. So we didn't. But I started getting this feeling. And we started looking around and we noticed that there were these... piles of fur, like piles of something. And we look around the yard, and there's these dead dogs, these domestic, just dead dogs.
piled up and the more we look around because we didn't notice this at first the more we look around there are these little like like I don't know if they're they're like bear traps but smaller probably with the teeth there are these bear traps around and then we look kind of to the side of the house And they have these skinned animals, and presumably they're obviously dogs, skinned animals hanging upside down.
Oh, boy. And, like, so the TV's on, music's blaring, nobody's around. We're out in the boonies, and they've called these, like, sister missionaries to come there. And I just, I have this. Maybe it's, see, I would call it the Holy Ghost or the Spirit guiding me. But maybe you're saying, Jay, this is from your horror training, brother. This is your horror training serving you. But I had this very strong feeling come over me that was like, you need to leave now. Go. And so it was very strong.
I'm like, you know what? We need to, we need to get out of here. So we left the item that they ordered and then we just, we left immediately because it was so, yeah, it came to me so strongly though. I'm telling you, I don't know. I mean... Maybe what they needed was a Bible, but I didn't want a heretic Hugh Grant situation there, so we left. Or a Texas Chainsaw Massacre situation. It was very much like that, yes.
So anyways, that's my story time. Love it. Awesome. Thank you for sharing that, Jay. Well, thanks for listening, and I'm glad to be here to tell the tale. And by the way... this is a deep cut Watson, but if you remember listening to movie podcast weekly, um, Cody Clark, film critic Cody Clark in Provo, who, by the way, this is such a weird tie-in, and then I'll shut up, I promise. Cody Clark married.
The gal who was one of the sister missionaries that I was there with. Hell yeah. And Cody Clark is the reason that I. started a film blog online, which then led to podcasting. So, in a weird way, this sister missionary and her husband, film critic Cody Clark, It's all kind of tied together, but that's kind of a cool aspect as well. Nice. We've talked about the two different Cody Clarks.
Yes. And I have gotten in better communication with the other Cody Clark, not the one you're talking about, although I would greatly like to know him. So, yeah, he's great. All right, Jay of the Dead here, and we just finished up our epic take one review of Heretic. And I am having a little bit of a Groundhog Day experience here with my good buddy.
Count Macula. Welcome back again, Mac. Hey, let's just do this every day. Just keep this going. This little insert segment that we're doing right here. We recorded it last night. And we were very pleased with ourselves. We loved the way it turned out. And then for the first time in my 14 years, it did not record. Damn it. So anyways, we're just gonna, we're gonna do it again and it won't be as good or as funny or as touching.
But, you know, it's Thanksgiving. So happy Thanksgiving. OK, Mac, what do you got for us, brother? I have got three winners of the cathedral giveaway. So yes, I've got them. It was sort of random. But it did sort of also prioritize the people who came and saw it first, commented. And what they're winning, Jason, is either, you know, one of the following, right? A Blu-ray of long legs.
A 4K Blu-ray of Godzilla minus one and a 4K of Prey. The rules to win. Don't forget, kids must be 18 or older and must live in the U.S. unless you're macula. And I had the clever idea, Jason. I think that these three winners could. give us like, cause how they win, right? As I'm about to say their name, they email us in to haunting your headphones at gmail.com. That's right. And then they're going to, I thought it'd be cool if they said, you know, give us your one, two.
and three like if you want godzilla minus one more than you want prey right then you put that as one two three now you still may get number three it just kind of depends on what the other guys say or gals right the other winners but i thought it might be a nice way to maybe get the Blu-ray that you really want instead of getting stuck with Jan Gell again or something like that. Yeah, poor John C.
John C's out there thinking, yeah, it'd be nice if I even get that. I haven't even gotten that one yet. Mr. Watson. No, but I just want to say thank you so much to everyone. Thank you. It's going to just live on YouTube. So anytime you guys hear this, you can still go check it out. It's a five-minute short. It is horror. It is abstract and artistic, Jason, but it's black and white, which is my thing, right?
Okay, enough of that. Without further ado, and these are just, you know, one, two, and three, so they can all email in. They're all going to get a Blu-ray. Okay. The first one is Horror Movie Fanboy 1261. I know that's Brian Scott. Mac, he wins every day.
Which I'm glad. I'm grateful because he's one of our most supportive listeners. But even he is saying, I'm so embarrassed because I always win. I feel like the other listeners are going to hate me. So maybe that's why he's done this mysterious code numbering.
Well, and these are their YouTube names, right? So when you leave a comment on YouTube, it just kind of says blah, blah, blah, whatever. But it is hilarious to me if he really is trying to hide Jason and you're pulling the curtain back and exposing him. That's right. Or because he was exposing himself, he's got a prison number and that's his prison number now. Just kidding. Brian Scott does not expose himself that I know of, but I'm just saying that might be his prison number.
And you know what? We will send it to the prison. I don't know if I can watch it or not, but that'd be nice if he you know, if I had a Blu-ray player, I could probably survive pretty well in prison. Yeah, seriously. OK, number two winner. Eric Shaw seven. So that last name is S H a W number seven. Okay. Eric, email us, let us know which one you want and we'll send you at least one of them. All right. Yes. Eric Shaw seven with the code numbering as well. That's right. Then we have Grayson.
Keanu. Grayson. He is someone that we know personally. So I'm just going to drop this one off directly at his house. I'm going to wait till it gets dark. I'm going to crawl up to the second floor and creak his window open. open and just pop the blu-ray in through his window okay and that's how he's gonna get his selection so Please email us, Grayson, and let us know which one he wants. And I have a strong suspicion that he's going to want Godzilla minus one. Wow. Okay. I don't know.
Yeah, Grayson is a man of fine tastes, so I could see him winning that one. Dave Z. He actually speaks Japanese, has lived in Japan, and recently visited Japan, so that's cool. And is... part japanese so is he knew all that i didn't even realize that that's amazing wow okay but um yeah the other thing i just want to say is if people go and check out the imdb page that could be cool too
because that will link. You'll be able to see the actress who started my film and see all the other work that she's done. And you can rate it if you want. That would be awesome if you guys did decide to do something like that. And yeah, we're just going to keep giving stuff away, Jason, right? This is the best and biggest podcast you've ever done, right? Yes. And we're just going to continue to give away prizes. That's right. And sometimes they're going to be Blu-rays.
And sometimes they're going to be severed hands just in a package. Or, Jason, I think when your cat passes away, I think we just tape her into a box and we just send it to one of the listeners. Oh, a dead Miss Kitty for somebody. Who would want a dead Miss Kitty? I actually sent a dead coyote skin to my best friend Bill Barnes when I was a missionary. I bet you could get out of or into some trouble with that. His dad was pissed. That cat called.
Oh, really? Yeah, because it was all seepy and smelly. See, the people who taxidermied it, I don't know if that's a verb, but anyway, they didn't know how to do it properly. So by the time it arrived to my friend, it was all... seepy and oh my god yeah anyways but but yeah dead cat that'll that'll go over real well so yeah who should we send that to but in case we didn't want to send dead things in the mail
I don't even know if that's a U.S. Postal Service violation, but in case we didn't, I have a weird random prize, which we talked about last night, but we'll talk about it again since these listeners are a little slow on the uptake. Just kidding. It's my recorder. I have a model, and I'm not talking about Mr. Watson. I am talking about...
a model like of a car. It is a Plymouth Fury. It is Christine. And it's awesome. Yes. It's one of those old school ones you got to put together and it's all like the plastic is all white. So you're going to have to paint it red and everything. But hopefully someone who wins that will be interested in putting together models so they could put together Christine and then send us a picture of it. So, Max, do you want to give a bonus giveaway with this Christine model?
I'm going to do a bonus giveaway. And check this out. I'm looking through the comments. I'm over here on YouTube looking at Ethedral. Okay. And I just pulled up a comment. And let me read you the comment because it's actually really nice. Okay. This is the comment. This person says visceral and haunting. Love the atmosphere. Love the design. Love the black and white. Love.
how each scene could be studied in a various majors in college level classes. And then this person also says, also love the OG horror movie podcast shirt and wear it often. Jason, this is at FOTNS1152. So if that's you, email in. You just got this model. At fonts1152. Now, last night we made some kind of Helvetica joke, but I don't remember it, so...
Just insert Helvetica here. I just remember in film school thinking there's no way you could make a documentary about fonts alone. But there actually is a documentary and it's actually super interesting. And it's actually... only about one single font. And it is crazy Helvetica. That's right. That's right. And you know what? I'm going to say I'm going to do a little song here that I didn't do last night. So this is bonus material since it's Thanksgiving. Come thou fond of.
Have every blessing. No, it's not font. It's fount. Never mind. Never mind. That's not the... I love it. Jason, I love that you're a musician. You're so awesome. Thank you. Yes. I hope you're having an awesome Thanksgiving. Brother, I am. And I'm so glad that you said that. This is not even hard to conjure once again because I said something very sincere to Macula last night.
I'm going to say it again tonight and I'm going to try to deliver it better because last night I delivered it poorly. So in the beginning of this episode, we talked about in the intro, Mac, we talked about what we were going to do for Thanksgiving. And I just... I actually intended to tell this at the beginning, but I forgot I got too excited to jump in. So I'm glad you're here because it actually has to do with you. So four years ago when I had my first post-divorce Thanksgiving,
My ex-wife had my kids for that first one and it is my favorite holiday. And so I was going to have a Thanksgiving alone because my family's in West Virginia. And Mac and his sweetheart were thoughtful enough to think. think about me and think, hey, Jay may, you know, he might not have anywhere to go. And because I was just going to watch movies, you know, but they invited me to have Thanksgiving dinner with their family. And that meant so much to me. It was amazing to be with.
Mac and his family and I will never forget that as long as I live so I just want to thank Mac once again I'm sorry this is a rerun for you Mac but I mean it I mean I'll remember it every Thanksgiving for the rest of my life so Thank you very much, brother. And Jason, you're always welcome at our Thanksgiving. And movies are awesome. And there's a couple of good Thanksgiving movies, right? Yes. Seeing that turkey steaming and all warm and delicious on the other side of the screen.
is fun but you want to eat that stuff you got to come to my house you got to you got to get a plate full you know you know it that's right that's right and um yeah i mean one could watch Eli Roth's Thanksgiving or Cretia or, you know, any number of Thanksgiving films. Son-in-law? No, we, Pauly Shore. is absolutely banned around me. I can't even with polish. I can't.
even with that guy. But Mac, real quick before we run, what are you doing for Thanksgiving? Tell the listeners, because I'm pretty sure they're going to be very interested in hearing this. Right this minute, I am... cleaning my house top to bottom because everyone's coming to our house. My wife's family is coming to our house this year for Thanksgiving and they really know how to cook. Like they are so good. Yes.
like the stuffing they make the stuffing by scratch and they do all of the you know the real stuff and it's just amazing so we're just excited about that and I am kind of getting excited about the gals are going to go see Wicked. The guys are supposed to go see Gladiator 2 at some point. Yes. I am in the mood for a Thanksgiving movie and maybe even a really great like native movie like.
spray or something like that i'm just like so in the mood to sit down and watch a movie of course do it very excited to catch the parade yes we watch we watch that too even though even though i will say that parade is the biggest advertisement I have ever seen in my life. I have never seen anything more egregious in its advertising.
Seriously, I'm just so shocked. If anybody watches the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade, I know that's part of the point of it. But if you watch it, it is absolutely shameless.
It is so bad. I think the thing that bugs me the most, and I get that this is a logistical thing and it's too cold and you wouldn't be able to sing for that long, but... they have all these like musicians, like really famous people that go out of their way to find the most popular and the best, you know, this year's top musicians, whatever it is.
And then they have them stand on a float and lip sync to their song. Have you ever noticed that, Jason? Oh, I know. But yeah, it does bother me. And yes, that would be logistically difficult. But to make up for that, listeners, Mac has prepared. A surprise for you. He is going to sing Sabrina Carpenter's Espresso right now. Take it away, Mac. Well, I'm so not musically inclined, Jason. You should know this. No, I thought you were going to sing espresso for them. Yeah. No, I wish. I wish so bad.
I play the trombone, Jason. Let me go get it. Hold on a sec. I'm just kidding. Wow, that's very cool. That's so awesome. You play that. You know Dr. Bishop? Dr. Walking Dead plays saxophone? No, I didn't. Yeah. You started a jazz band, a horror jazz band. Oh, okay. Well, jazz is horror. That's for sure. Yeah, I don't like jazz, and you can all talk smack on me all you want, because I was in the jazz band in high school. I was the jazz pianist, so...
Sweet. I'm allowed to. And that's when they tell you, they're like, Jason, we want to feel the piano. We don't necessarily want to hear the piano. Yeah, exactly. You know, everybody always says that to me, and I'm not sure why, but anyways. Well, Mac, happy Thanksgiving, brother. I'm so excited and congratulations again on Ethedral. Listeners, it's Macula's horror short film that he wrote, directed, produced, he stars in.
edited it it's amazing you have to check it out if you haven't already we the horror avengers are genuinely very proud of him i mean he represented and so i hope everybody will check out ethedral and mac um Let's go have some pumpkin pie. Let's do it. This is Dave, Dr. Shark Becker, and you're listening to Jay of the Dead's new horror movies, where we love horror movies as much as you do. Jay of the Dead here.
Just a little production note before we go into this specialty segment. The introduction that you're about to hear of the song Midnight, The Stars, and You, which is perhaps most popularly known from The Shining. It was arranged and produced by Kagan Breitenbach and is performed by his band, Bloody Cabaret. Oh, and by the way, I'm typically not a mouth breather.
Not that I know of, at least. And I was under the weather when we recorded this segment and the microphone was right in front of me. And so my apologies for sounding like Keira Knightley in this recording. Here we go. the stars It's Romantic All right. Welcome back everybody at this point in the show. This is the fruit brute and we are doing another.
segment of the midnight music society i'm gonna have to pay spawn to do that and his really cool yes what's his low voice that he does i don't know but he's really good at that it's it's it's uh impressive uh and As you can hear, I'm joined by the incredible, very musically talented, multi-talented Jay of the Dead. Yeah, thanks for that. Jay of the Dead, yes. Hey, if you are someone who fancies yourself a musician...
Do not play music with Kagan or Lestat, because then you'll stop fancying yourself as such. That's not true. Damn it. I want to... I think... I've always actually wondered why you never credit yourself on the show for the music.
Because you'll always say, who cares about Frederick Ingram anymore? I do. No, I'm just kidding. We love Frederick Ingram. I'm just saying, you record all those original... bits yes that's true a lot of the um interlude what would you call those as a professional yeah sure there's the interlude bumpers um are things that i've done yes
Yeah. And they're so well produced. They're cleaner than my production. I'm telling you. That's nice. They're clean and so beautiful and perfect. Well, thank you. Thank you. So we are rambling around my old family piano. It is the only possession I have left from my original childhood home. And to celebrate this wonderful festive Thanksgiving time of year. John Carver weekend, as we call it now.
Yes. What's your favorite Thanksgiving food? Oh, for sure, pumpkin pie. Okay, good. My two aunts that I quote with you apparently all the time, who are deceased, they both used to make me... poke pies but let me just say i've always found a horrible pumpkin pies usually because like there are different levels of goodness but the costco my workplace got me costco pumpkin pie for everybody and they taste almost exactly like my two aunts pumpkin
pies that's a little nobody cares but i just want to put it out there if you need a good pumpkin pie for it's even better than the marie calendars version The Costco pumpkin pie is famous. Is it? In my in-laws family. Good. Especially. That's good. And I will vouch for it as well. Yes.
And especially this massive pie, which would feed an entire family, is like five bucks. Yeah, it's huge. Yeah. And it gives me the worst heartburn. Oh, no. Like every time I eat a piece, I have to take tapas, but I don't. I don't care. It's worth it. We're a pie family too. Absolutely. You know, when I first started doing Thanksgiving with my in-laws and we'd go in there and for dessert, there would either be like one pie.
And I'm talking for like 16 people. What? Or like some non-pie dessert option. At the Breitenbach household, there are... Every person, like every family brings maybe three or four. Yes, that's how we do. And so we have Thanksgiving in the middle of the day and pie is at night. Oh, well, for me, pies are all day. All day. Well, then it's the next day, too. Okay, yes. Black Friday because it's Thanksgiving weekend. That's right, which is what we're celebrating. Exactly. So if you're...
not into Thanksgiving, my sister hates Thanksgiving, and you're into consumerism, then you're still invited to the party. That's right. That's right. Yeah. And if you're sad about Thanksgiving, I'm sorry. You can have some Costco pumpkin pies. Do it. Do it. I endorse this. They're good.
There's this sheet music in front of me for four hands piano. It's very exceptionally composed. And in here I thought... you you ordered this or something this is out of some book but no no kagan kagan did this that he did this so Yeah, I have this obsession instead of progressing my own, you know, music to go back and just do horror music all the time. I used to do, these are actually derived from, so today I should.
be telling listeners where we're um sitting at my piano in salt lake city utah and uh jason was nice enough to drive jay of the dead was nice enough to drive all the way up which is like an hour drive 45 minutes yeah it actually took me 30 you know It's great to be here. Yes. Yes. Thank you. No, it's only 30 minutes. We're going to hang out way more. Love it. I'm just saying. Yeah, I know. That's what I think too. And you were nice enough to come up here so we could do this segment at a piano.
And I wrote these... Piano forehand arrangements. That means for two humans, not four-handed people. These are actually derived from string quartet arrangements that I have done over the years.
um nice well some of them anyway the last one we'll get to was an original but um yeah i just i just have really thought that the you know noodling around on the piano is more interesting than just me pretending to be a music theory expert well you say that but i i know for a fact that many listeners myself included learned a ton from your music
So yeah, everybody loves to hear the performance aspect, but I do love to hear the theory side. And just one quick observation I'll make for the listeners. I've always thought as a pianist... want to be um the the christmas carols were really hard because they got um a lot of accidentals in them but that ain't nothing compared to horror music oh no horror scores have tons of accidentals i see Oh, yeah, absolutely.
In this first, you know, the first film that we're looking at, we have three music selections from is The Shining. And Stanley Kubrick was actually, I would call him a contemporary music, contemporary classical music expert. and curator and just by listening to any of his films you knew that the guy really knew his stuff and he branched out and listened to stuff that was very cutting edge at the time or
You know, the sort of music that was only really in academic circles. And so one of the pieces that you're talking about that's really got a lot of accidentals in it is this Bella Bartok piece. And this, I always forget the exact title of this because it's a little long. It's Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celeste.
And it is a very haunting piece of music and the adagio movement of this is used in The Shining in many key... points uh the most prominent of which are uh when Danny and Wendy are going through the maze and Jack Nicholson is like observing the maze from above and also the um The other really key sequence is like the... Known as the fatherly love scene when Danny wanders into the apartment and is sitting on Jack Nicholson's lap. That really slow, disturbing dialogue scene. Yeah, yeah.
I think one of the things we talk about in horror music that's really common is dissonance and when Jason was saying accidentals. So in a... You know in a typical piece of music you might have something that's just like You know, that's like just something I'm making up that's in minor mode. Do you want to do it? So, wait, lay down something for me in A minor real quick. Okay, you got it. Just A minor.
Okay, this is Jay of the Dead, bringing you some minor, A minor moods. And I'm going to bring to you a more conventional melody at the top. But then, keep going. So then this is when Jason's talking about doing accidentals, so he switched this up to a D minor chord. But I'm going to add on top what is considered a little bit more dissonance.
So that's kind of Bartok's doing but then you can push it even further and now just start going into a tonality okay so nothing matters anymore this is what happens in horror music Just within this A minor, A tone? No, anything. Just go nuts.
So that's kind of your various levels and music theory starts uh very solid in the beginning stuff that we're doing and then it falls apart uh and that's what's that's one thing that's really effective in horror scores is um and thank you for that that was beautiful oh thank you um so this
little bar talk segment and we'll we'll intercut uh lestat and i playing some of these together some of this bar talk i'll insert it here Hey everyone, the Fruit Brute coming to you here with a little post-production note before you listen to the first musical excerpt. So when I pitched this idea to Jay, my thinking on the music was that it was going to be much like the spirit of podcasting itself, which is
very off the cuff and not necessarily rehearsed. And so as we play through this music, we haven't practiced it one bit. We're just looking at the arrangements I put together and reading it. So if you haven't heard these pieces of music, I encourage you to go out and listen to the originals. In preparation for listening to our performances, just know that we're just having a little bit of Thanksgiving fun getting around the piano and messing around. All right, back to the show.
And for me, this is kind of like the main theme of The Shining because it's used the most. So this is really slow. you Good job. That was good. And as you can hear in that, it is just barely... within the fringes of tonality i'd say there's there's something that you can kind of grab onto but barely and and and so what's happening to listeners even listeners who don't understand music theory is this is having a psychological effect on them
where they feel very uncomfortable, right? Because we're so used here in, like, I don't know, North America or whatever. We're used to hearing Western music, probably. And we're very familiar with being in this... The typical major minor scales, a lot of the music you turn on the radio, right? But then what you're saying is... the horror composers will go into this atonality in order to give us some psychological unrest. Correct. Okay. Yeah, absolutely. Well said.
This is, you know, as we kind of talked about the fringes of tonality, The Shining also uses segments that are unarrangeable for piano, I would say. by a Polish composer named Christoph Penderewski. And Penderewski's music is actually notated more with diagrams.
than it is traditional notation. Yeah, it's pretty wild. You should look it up. And one of the pieces is called Polymorphia. And it is just like... It's just... chaos on strings and at that point that's what a lot of the finale music is in The Shining is this pure atonality stacked on itself and i i'll try not to go in too deep because like my knowledge my knowledge on the shining uh score and soundtrack is like a little too too much for just a you know a segment esoteric
Well, we could do a 10-hour series on it. Oh, that's impressive. Okay. So we're going to hop backwards, though, to the other segment that started this out, which is the Dies Erase. And composer and electronic music pioneer Wendy Carlos, who very cutting edge at the time, so Kubrick liked working with her, worked with her as well on A Clockwork Orange.
used some very, very haunting sounds at the beginning of this. So this is a little bit of a tease for what I'm hoping to do with Dave Z eventually with the Shining Theories. Nice, okay. For me, well, just some background on the DS series. It is a Gregorian chant that was originally written, I think, back in the, what is it? I think I would have written that down. But anyway, it, oh, 13th century, even older than that. So speaking of, you know, polar opposite ends of history, music history here.
You have this modern 20th century Bartok paired against 13th century Gregorian chant. Wow. And this is something that was written... To depict the last judgment, the judgment, last judgment. So it's always associated with events that are surrounding death. Yeah, and we're talking Last Judgment as in, like, scriptural Last Judgment? Okay, gotcha, gotcha. Of God.
Correct. Okay, gotcha. Yeah, because Gregorian chant is actually the earliest known Western notated music, really. It's the first thing to start using this convention of staffs, not necessarily how we do it.
today. They use these little notes called nooms and they indicate relative pitch and so when you hear those monks singing like chanting yes they're usually reading these uh these gregorian chants that are written in this kind of archaic way okay cool and so the ds aries would have been written and performed originally that way wow And as of today, the DS Ares is kind of a corny thing. Why? Do they make it corny by overdoing it? Yeah, I kind of think that it's...
Cliché now? Yes. Is it? Okay. I think it's the musical equivalent of like spooky skeletons. Oh, okay. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's like... our horror film has skeletons. Yeah. And vampires and bats. Right. You know, it's kind of the musical equivalent of that. But you're talking about these guys who are going like... Yeah. Like that, right? Mm-hmm.
Can you play it for us a little bit? Okay, I'll try. Just that low bass part. I'm going to try not to butcher it. Just play it nicely. Oh my god, I'm too slow. That's fine. There it is. Beautiful. Somebody after the last music segment suggested, will you tell us an example of all the places where the DS area is used? And I was doing a whole bunch of searches because you hear this show up all the time. Like, this is the only movie.
maybe the only movie i give this a pass for using the da series because usually when it shows up it's like the composer's like i wonder what represents death how about this really ancient thing that everybody uses all the time and it's like It's cool, but it's like...
uninspired okay to me yeah it is and so like uh who was it who took over after harry manfredini in the friday the 13th franchise like this guy named i think it was fred mullen i always confuse his name with the uh with the producer but um he started using the Dies Erase as a theme in Friday the 13th. And I'm just like, come on, that's so stupid. Really? Yeah. So I think by like, especially part eight in Jason Takes Manhattan. But what does it sound like in there in Friday the 13th?
just for those who don't know. Just like that. But like a little faster. That intro to the... Yeah, like Jason will pop up on the screen and you'll get kind of like... Oh, really? Yeah. And then Jason will be skulking around. I think it's even in part... Wow. Yeah, I think it's in part seven as well, but like part eight, like Jason Takes Manhattan is like, they just...
Here's Jason playing the spooky music. And what's so surprising about that is I would have never, like if I sat down to write a score, a film score for a horror film, especially by the 13th, I wouldn't just use the white keys, which is what... Oh, come on. What Kagan just did. He just did the white notes right there. What? Your scores are white. I know. See, I'm loving white.
No, but it just seems like it would be too easy. I would make it like, I would have to transpose it to like A flat minor. See, I'm a D flat guy. I like D flat. D flat major though, right? Yeah, D flat minor. D flat minor is from hell. Yeah, it is from hell. That's true. Oh, you know what's funny? Okay, this is what I was tripping myself up on. It starts on the third of the scale. Yes. So even though this is in D minor.
Yeah, because it starts on F and it's in D minor. Yes. You figured that out before. I'm behind the times. Look at you. Look at you transposing on the spot. But I'm just saying, like if I wrote it there, if you said, oh, I wrote the Friday the 13th music and it's this. And I saw you do it on the piano. And I'm like, oh, that's got like lots of black keys. So anyway, I'm making this child.
Sorry, go ahead. Go ahead back to your smart stuff. Well, I'll say smart words. Yes, say smart words. So the Dear Sirius is used in many examples in classical music, including... Is that your NPR voice? Oh, no, I usually do a Diane Ream, but I got, I used to do a Diane Ream, but I got canceled for it. I'm reinstating you officially. Whatever the opposite of canceling is.
Somebody needs to do that. You're rescheduled as far as I'm concerned. Rescheduled? Is that a movement? It should be. I'm making it one now. We just watched the Nicolas Cage movie. The A24 Nicolas Cage movie where he shows up in people's dreams. What was that? Do you remember? Have you seen that? Remind me. What's the title? Well, that's what I'm asking you. It's something about dreams. I don't know. Here, I've got Letterboxd right here. I'm not a dream guy.
This movie is... Is it... It's not Mandy, is it? No, it ain't Mandy. Because I don't know what was happening in that movie. I just remember when he wore that tiger shirt. He shows up in dreams. Yeah. It's called Dream Scenario. And it's not really a horror film. I think it's kind of a drama with moments of horror in it. It's like a... Kind of like a slightly sci-fi fantasy drama with elements of horror in it. Gotcha. But I don't remember why I even brought this up. We watched this yesterday.
Well, you were talking about how he reschedules people. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Dream Scenario is actually largely about cancel culture. Is it? Okay. Yeah. And because anyway, so let's take the road back. We'll get back to the DA series, but I'll just say that this has been used as an example depicting...
horror and supernatural and death for a long time. And the reason why I give it a pass in The Shining is because Stanley Kubrick is dealing with these more like... massive themes he's dealing with like themes of like um cycles of violence and genocide in the shining wow and so Having a song that's this heavy and on the nose to start your film, I will often, when I start The Shining, turn my head a little bit to the side and be like, that's such an on the nose choice. But I feel like only you.
or composers like you would even know that. Because most... And maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong. But I feel like most just like average Joe kind of people who are watching that think that's really creepy. The way that starts. It is. But you're saying when you hear it, you're kind of like, oh, this is kind of trite. You know, yeah, it is. To me, it's a little trite. But the reason why it works and it becomes elevated is then when you hear the tribal screaming behind it. With the...
Like that sort of effect because that's directly in my opinion making callbacks to native americans and more tribal sounds into the music okay which eventually gets called back to many many more times throughout the film yes and so it's just like subconsciously you know kubrick was obsessed with image like messaging yes and that's like this very introductory thing about grabbing this thing that in culture that made most people don't know about but is there the di series
and then also getting these tribal chants and putting them together. And it immediately kind of sets up this theme of... in this way, kind of generational cruelty and violence and genocide. Wow. Perfect for the... thanksgiving weekend so oh my gosh yeah nice timing but but no i'm just i'm not joking as in making light i'm joking as in that's something that i would
bring up, but I'm just saying, I'm not even, never mind, to hell with that. But I just want to say, I had a non sequitur there, which is, I was watching Forensic Files. And a murder happened in room 237 at this hotel. Oh, really? Yes. For real? Yeah. Because Forensic Files is real. I know. It is real. But that's what I'm saying. Like, the room was 237. Yes. And I just wanted to put that out there. That's all I have to say about that.
I love it. Happy Thanksgiving. Now this next chunk of The Shining, I'm indulging in The Shining just because it's my favorite horror film of all time. and the music in it is just nuts it's all over the place so the last thing we have here is the the a big band piece that closes out the film. It's also played in the main when Jack Nicholson meets up with Delbert Grady.
um in the ballroom not to be confused with charles grady yeah can i give you a tease on that one yeah do it because like honestly there's not a whole lot to say about midnight the stars in you it's a nostalgic big band piece that really just places you in the era and i don't think that lyrically or in any way this film has a whole well this song has a whole lot of significance to the film it's just a it's basically just a love song uh and it's eerie
I've always loved it. But, you know, are you familiar with the Charles versus Gilbert Grady situation in The Shining? I've heard that before. I don't remember it now, though. Remind me. When Jack Nicholson is interviewing for the job, Stuart Ullman says... So my predecessor in this job hired a man named Charles Grady as the caretaker. So that would have been probably in the 70s, being that the film takes place around 1980. Yeah. So there's a caretaker.
who uh killed his family with an axe as the quote okay um and uh he also says he had two little girls around ages eight and 10 or 8 and 12 or something like that. So they're different ages. But then in the hotel later on we see that there are twins. Yes. They're not a different age at all. Okay. Okay. And then when Jack Nicholson talks to Grady in the ballroom, in the pink and gold ballroom, it is not the 1970s.
It is like the 1920s. Yeah. If we're to believe the picture that was in the hallway before. Okay. Or at least well before the 70s. And this guy says his name is Delbert. Yeah.
Grady. Okay. And this is something that everybody thinks is a mistake. And there's actually an interview from Kubrick where he talks about themes of reincarnation in The Shining. Oh. And the idea is that Dale Burt, I mean, Grady had... actually been there at two points in time and so had jack torrance so it's not a oh it's not a mistake which is intentional which is why no no because because i guess
Before, when I thought about that, I thought that maybe there was some kind of a... It was an ancestor. But it's not like a son or grandson. It's reincarnation. Which is why, at the end, we see him in the photo. Correct. And that's actually, you know, folks can go on YouTube and actually listen to Kubrick talk about this and talk about this. There's a very short interview that he did with somebody over the phone where he confirms this.
evil reincarnation cycle where he is part of the hotel's history. Mm-hmm. So that's why the theories about The Shining are so compelling, because you can come up with something that's really, really ridiculous. And you're like, that can't possibly be true. And then it turns out that it was actually intentional.
But it's just, that's really, and I don't want to be reductive. Please. I'm not saying that's all there is to it, but in terms of like... under appreciating it but it is that simple that it's just he wanted to incorporate the reincarnation of these killers for some reason yeah the idea is kind of like um So one of the primary themes of The Shining is that...
history sort of repeats itself when it comes to human like violence in human history and so there's a lot of subliminal there's there's a lot of subliminal imagery for the genocide of the native americans but then there's really really subtle and arguable imagery of uh the holocaust as well yeah there are some images that are evocative of that and kind of the idea is that this is something that like repeats over time
And it's also talking about on more of a micro scale about themes of domestic abuse and how cycles of domestic abuse perpetuate themselves as well. So you think about things that Danny goes through. Yeah. With Jack Nicholson. How might that affect his life later? And so a lot of, you know, when you have these more subtextual themes, they're not meant to be taken super literally. The idea is just like this, this.
you know, violence kind of perpetuates itself through time. It's a, yeah, it's a recurring, the recurrence of humans harming other humans. Correct. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I sound like one of those crazy basement-dwelling neckbeards that is obsessed with shining conspiracies. No, that's not even the conspiracy, though, because it's in there. It is. That is in there. Well, and I mean...
Man, see, now all I want to talk about is The Shining. The Shining is replete with abuse and all sorts of messed upness. Absolutely. And I have even more. But we'll save it for another date. You and Dave Z can hash that out. Right? Yes. We're going to do it. I just need to get in touch with him. It'll be the endlessly teased segment.
But Midnight, the Stars and You, composed and written by Jimmy Campbell and Harry M. Woods. And the version that's used in the film is performed by Ray Noble and his orchestra featuring vocalist Al Boley. So I'll insert a clip of Lestat and I attempting to play this. Yeah, that sounds good. Two, three, four. you Turn the page, turn the page. Write it two, three, four. This is so bad. Ready? Okay, top of the page. Two, three, four.
I should have practiced. I should have practiced. I didn't think I'd be doing that. I should have paid attention in piano lessons. We'll go ahead and move on to a totally different film here because this one is just... whole lot of fun to play okay and we teased you when playing this one to see if you could guess what it was yeah it was it was hard it was hard for me here we go it's three Four and... Started seeing him. I did.
at some point today. We'll turn the page. Oh, there's more of it, huh? Any guesses now? Did we play it well enough? It sounds familiar, but I know. That is Hellraiser. Oh, is it? Yes! Which is funny, because I forgot that's what it was too, and it's one of my favorite movies of all time. But...
Chris? It was Chris... Christopher Young. Yes, Christopher Young. Should I quit this bit of, like, trying to play Name That Tune and torturing you? You can. You can do it all you want, but I'm telling you, I'm hopeless. I really wanted to have more things prepared. just to mess with you more. Yeah. But yeah, this is Mr. Christopher Young, and this is actually taken from Hellbound, the sequel, but it's the same theme.
And Christopher Young, we love, love, love Christopher Young. For people not as familiar with him as a composer, he's touched a whole lot of franchises and worked with a lot of really important people in... horror cinema history. Of course, Clive Barker with Hellraiser. He also did that, did The Grudge. He worked with Sam Raimi for Drag Me to Hell. He did the music for Sinister. He did the Pet Sematary remake recently. He also composed the music for Species.
The Fly 2, The Exorcism of Emily Rose. Major horror guy. Yeah. And one of the things we love about Christopher Young is that he... is a man after my own heart and loves writing music for orchestra he is one of those composers who didn't really fully adopt the synthesizer craze. Oh, and actually, most recently, he did Nightmare on Elm Street 2.
Recently meaning a film you guys covered recently. Freddy's Revenge. The only Nightmare on Elm Street score that doesn't have Charles Bernstein's theme in it. Yes. Which is a bummer. It is. It is. It should have been in there just a little. It should have. But Christopher Young likes to use a massive orchestra. And...
This score for Hellbound, especially, well, the first Hellraiser has a big orchestra, but Hellbound's orchestra is even bigger, including just like a gigantic string section, brass, choir. all the everything. He still writes music, you know. you know, wrote this and his scores today at a little upright piano with a paper and pencil. Does he, does he watch the film and write it as he watches like dailies or something like that? Like not dailies, but he watches a rough cut.
and then composes to it? Well, I think it's different for every film, and I haven't really watched anything that is his process per se. Okay. But I'll tell you, like my time working as a film composer, usually you get the, usually you get to, if you're lucky, you get to talk to the director beforehand a little bit before.
you see footage so you can mess around with some music. But you don't actually compose finished things most of the time until you have a picture locked cut or a pretty close to picture locked cut. And these old school guys like John Williams and Christopher Young, what he's doing still is, you know, stopwatch style.
writing, you know, making calculations with the tempo. Wow. And I have to, Christopher Young, I'm sure, is using a DAW like everybody else is these days, but I think he still likes to, you know, do an old school paper and pencil. Well, what does DAW stand for? Digital Audio Workstation. Okay. Much like Cubase, Pro Tools, Logic. Gotcha. Stuff like that. And, you know, everybody uses those. Digital Performer. Because you can kind of cheat with that, in a sense.
Well, cheat or... It's like what all computers do these days is they make our lives simultaneously incredibly easier and way harder. Yes, yes. That's right. Okay. So in Cubase, I use that. You can kind of just like drag. I'll be like, okay, I want the start point to be here and the out point should be here. I want to have a jump scare. Yeah. At this point in the time code. So then I use a tool to drag the beats, like the measure over so that I'm like, that jump scare is going to be right.
on the downbeat yeah on one yes so when the orchestra goes and gets up to it it's like There it is. Really easy to hit. Yes, I wondered about that. And computerized to a click, too, so you can't miss it. That's what I mean. That's what I mean by cheating, right? Yes. Whereas you're saying in the old days, John... Williams would have to stopwatch this stuff in order to get it to
Correct. Okay. Yeah. But even then they're approximating. So back in the day, like the archaic, like some people still use it probably more than I think, but they use a method when they're on the scoring stage. called Punches and Streamers, where they actually have the film print. And based on the timing, they'll go in and they'll start making little scratches on the frame. And if you ever watch like a conductor.
conducting like a live film score or something you can see the scratch on the image start to move kind of like from one side to the other so the conductor has a warning of when to hit the beat oh wow okay yeah so it takes like Conducting back in the day especially required real precision when you weren't using a computerized click track. Yeah, no kidding. That's how they knew when to hit the downbeat. Crazy. And Hellraiser 2 is still like a pre-computer score.
So this would have all been done in that way. It's really sad to think that this art form is being lost so much because it takes so much effort to compose a full orchestral score. And so many directors these days, the directors who I won't work with, they just want a drone. They're like, give me a moody synthy drone and let's vibe out, man. And it's just like...
They're like, copy Johan Johansson and Hans Zimmer who cares about the orchestra. So you're saying they just want like a single low note and then they want something like... They want that when you say a drone. Oh, okay. But it's not on a piano, obviously, because nowadays, timbre is king.
Yes. Meaning that like, how interesting can these synthesizers texture become? Right. So when you listen to like, like Ben Salisbury's music for something like Annihilation, it's like these tones that you've never heard of in your whole life. Yes. It doesn't sound like a... violin or a clarinet or anything it sounds like something wholly unique to match the polar bear that you've never seen in your whole life
Polar bear? Is it a polar bear? In Annihilation? Yeah, the one with the screaming. Yeah. I didn't realize it was a polar bear. That polar bear scene. You don't think it's a polar bear? Well, I don't know what it is. I think Watson would say it's a polar bear. Well, Watson has like a fetish with polar bears, right? He does. He has polar bear slippers. Oh, that's cute. Yes, he does. That's really wholesome for him, actually. I know, I know. But you don't know what he does with those slippers.
Oh, man, I thought of a segment idea for the other day for Watson. For his polar bear slippers? Well, no. Well, that could be involved in our segment smash or pass. Yes. Which, by the way, smash. Yes. Of course. Just saying. Yeah, no. Oh, man. The topic I thought of with him was really controversial.
But yeah, no, there's a... Sounds like Watson. Yeah, I think it's like people with music now are really about where the direction of music has gone now versus... uh you know the orchestral heritage of film music is all about can you capture a vibe it's all it's less about harmony and melody In fact, a lot of the times when I've presented melodies or complex harmonies to directors, it will get rejected. Wow. They really don't want that because they just want subtlety.
That is shocking to me. It's horrifying, actually. I mean, for somebody who appreciates melody and harmony, it's an art form that's really being lost. Do you know what that's equivalent to? And I'm sorry. No, you're just always throwing out things that probably don't even relate to what you're trying to say. But it reminds me of the way that they're taking ChatGBT. And using that to write instead of actual writers. Mm-hmm.
you know, like what happened in my day job. Not that this is about me, but I'm just saying that it reminds me of that. Cause so you as a musician probably feel like what the heck you don't want. You don't want melodies and harmonies. You don't want orchestration for this. Like it's just. It's very upsetting on some level. Yeah, absolutely. But won't it come back around though, Kagan, eventually? What do you think?
I really don't know. Like, it's interesting. I think there will always be a desire for it. Just because... The artistic merit and just like the way that music with rich harmony and melody, the way it can make people feel is undeniable. It's so good that you can't truly forget it, but... I will just say like modern taste and preferences have really faded away from that.
And also there's the matter of accessibility, which is that writing music with complex harmony and melody takes a lot of technical training. And I'm not saying that using synthesizers does it and creating unique textures because it obviously requires a lot of patience. I have hardware synthesizers up in my studio and I...
a lot of appreciation for how hard they are to use. But let me just tell you that entering to a synthesizer with knobs is a lot easier to just noodle around with than... the level of training that's required for you know complicated orchestral writing um it just takes so much more skill yeah well did you hear um and again
off the beaten path but did you hear max um or did you watch his short film by any chance i've been i've been waiting to like really give it its time okay yeah yeah sorry i didn't mean to put you on the spot no it's okay but Listen to what he did for the score. It's interesting because... Well, maybe you should just be surprised. But basically... Well, I'll just tell you. From what he told me, he took...
This very happy, it was like this Muzak type, very positive, like upbeat stuff. And he took it and he slowed it way down. Oh yeah. And it sounds like... It's very disturbing, but it's not overly musical. Sure. It's probably more along the lines of... It's like a vibe. Yeah, it's a vibe. It's more along the lines of what you're talking about. But I can see, I'm recognizing because when... And when he did that for his, I'm like, yeah, that seems to be what's...
In vogue. What I'm hearing. Yeah, what's in vogue, yeah. So when you said that, that all rang true to me. And I haven't consciously put all this together, but I agree with what you're saying is right. However, though, I'm shocked that... they wouldn't want like like the jurassic park theme is so recognizable like or halloween theme like why wouldn't why wouldn't a horror filmmaker want that
So you have this association. Like you might have Art the Clown, which is this great character, but why don't you want a musical association with that character? I mean, I know. I have, I have a theory. Okay. I have a theory and it comes down to one of Jay the Dead's favorite podcast words, which is verisimilitude. Oh, okay. I think that when you, when you have like more operatic podcast,
operatic film music there is a sort of awareness that what you're experiencing is theatrical in nature and you're watching a show yeah whereas real life really doesn't have music like that that's not how real life is yes and so i think in an attempt to create realism and deeper immersion and more convincing illusion. This old school approach to film music is being abandoned.
Even to the point that a lot of film music doesn't even sound like what we conventionally think of as music. I have a very broad definition of music. I think it's the purposeful organization of sound. very very broad but a lot of film music is that yeah you know you think about you know we talked about i think the shepherd's loop uh for um the dark knight where hans zimmer just has this constantly rising um pad yeah It's this audio illusion that sounds like it's always rising even though...
it's kind of resetting on itself all the time. Yes. I love that. It's very, very, and, and that's the thing about like, not like for me, trying not to be too dismissive because like, this is the future. Um, but you know, It's always sad when the future comes at the complete sacrifice of the past. Yeah. Why can't they incorporate some of the other stuff? I don't know. It would be nice if they could still incorporate that old stuff into what they're doing in modern times. Yes. But anyways.
Well, I even think about, you know, like getting back to Hellraiser a little bit here, what Christopher Young is doing with, you know, because I think the conventional approach for a melody would be a little bit like what we were doing earlier with like... like a four chord progression and you and you lay a melody on top of that yeah um but the thing with experimenting with harmony is that um
Christopher Young here is doing these moves where he's playing chords that are not in the same key signature. And by doing that is creating something that sounds more... fantastical and puts us in this world of fantasy. Yeah. Because usually the chords that would be in that key signature would be kind of like... Yeah. But here he's doing these almost like... chromatic chord. It is chromatic. So chromatic too. And honestly, I don't love that.
Oh, you don't love it? I don't. I don't love that because it's so dramatic. And this, I mean, Hellraiser is like the epitome of like gothic horror score. Yes. It's because it's verging on fantasy. Because that's what that film is. Why don't you like it, though? Tell me. Why don't... Well, probably what you're saying, because it is... Fantasy. Yeah, closer to fantasy. Well, it's funny you say it, because, like, in a similar vein...
The Nightmare on Elm Street theme is a lot like that with the chord moves in that. So same key, actually. Charles Bernstein's doing... Messing with we were talking about anti jokes earlier. Yes And this is kind of an anti joke of a melody because it's messing with your expectation Would be That's kind of what you would expect. Do the major fifth up from that. Do the D minor and go to A.
Is that what I'm hearing? I'm hearing something else. I'm expecting something else from it. Well, try it. Well, I don't even know what it would be. You would probably find it forever. Close. Well, it's weird because when you listen to Charles Bernstein talking about, and I really do think the Nightmare on Elm Street theme is really similar in tone to Hellraiser. Actually, my favorite 80s double feature is Hellbound and Nightmare on Elm Street.
street three because they're both these like fantasy like horror masterpieces okay but like um kegan's a fred head in case people don't know that We're setting the record straight right now. And because you're wrong. Because you're wrong. And because I actually have a little bit of a chip on my shoulder. Aren't you a Fred head? No. You're not? No. And I'll tell you why.
And I'm like, I'm sorry, Ron Martin. I'm sorry, Ron Martin, that you brought this upon yourself. So Ron Martin and I did a segment. And, like, here's the thing. I love Nightmare on Elm Street. Especially 1, 3, and 7. Okay. They mean so much to me. Now, Random Street 1, I recently commented online, is the film that got me into filmmaking. Okay. And I could talk about that for another 10 hours on a podcast as well.
Right. About all the things. Okay. Ron came for Nancy. And I don't know if I can forgive him. Because I was trying to back him up. And I back him up on the show. Yes. And I back him up. But then, like, he came for my Nancy. I know. I love her, too. And the thing is, like... You talking about his performance or his preference of... He doesn't... He prefers...
Alice. Yeah, Alice. To Nancy, which, like, I love Alice. She's great. Of course. But she's not in the good movies is my problem. And that's, like, my harder core preference is just, like, I love Nightmare on the Street. first and foremost because of wes craven which like it's so weird um like growing up this is such a diatribe but it's i guess it's slightly connected to hellraiser in a way we're talking about fantasy horror but
Wes Craven, it's one of those weird things where I never thought I would have to defend myself for being a Wes Craven fan. But when I started, because growing up, I'm just like, he's one of the big ones. when uh it just turned out that everybody was um deep throat in john carpenter and i'm like and i'm like great like i love john carpenter but then like also i think
All the horror podcasts I listen to, it's just like, John Carpenter is the Messiah. And Wes Craven is this person that people will almost like apologetically. I don't get it. But isn't it true that Wes Craven actually has more horror hits like classics than John Carpenter? Isn't that true? Isn't he more prolific in terms of quote-unquote big horror films? I'm just off the top of my head. I don't have IMDb in front of me right now, but I'm just saying. What would you say?
i think there's here's the thing i think they're similar and i think it really in in terms of hits number of hits and i think that it really just comes down to preference and i truly believe You know, when we were talking more about vibe versus cerebral you know and this theme of these these music segments of like minimalistic ostinatos versus the complexity of counterpoint yeah i think wes craven is far more cerebral because he's the
professor who's read every book that you've never read and so when his things really really work there's so much going on underneath the surface whereas John Carpenter's looks have films have a more of a look to them and they have more of a vibe and even his scores are minimalistic and i think that for some reason like people like the feeling of john carpenter films more than craven's
Okay, so yeah, we're going to get very controversial. I love it. Here we go. Sorry. Sorry. Every time I'm on your segment, I torpedo you into other things. No, I love it. Okay, so... I think, and this is, again, listeners, we do not have IMDb in front of us. We're just going from memory here. Like, if you look at John Carpenter's, like, okay, The Thing and Halloween, people, those are like, you know.
untouchable and yeah they're tremendous films um but but like john carpenter on some of his other stuff And I'm not saying it's bad, but I'm saying I don't think he had the same... Oh, Greg O'Morse is going to lose it. I don't think he had the same long-term, ongoing... horror genius that Wes Craven had because Wes Craven's horror concepts I feel like if you look over his filmography even if you don't love all the films I felt like
I feel like he instills so many facets of horror. And probably from what you said, I didn't know he was super well-read. But probably from what you're saying is why he...
He's a cerebral kind of director. Whereas I feel like John Carpenter was more of a bootstrapper. But maybe I'm wrong. What say you? That's an interesting thought that he... I do think, unlike, you know, if you think about trajectories, you know, George Romero and John Carpenter had a kind of a similar trajectory where they both like progressively, especially as they got older.
the quality went down and there weren't a lot of bright spots, you know, whereas Craven's career is a little bit more peak and valley. And, um, and like his first. you know, most important film. What year is Last House on Love? His first important film was Last House on Love, which is 72. 72? Somewhere around the early 70s. Yeah, because it took him a while before Hills Have Eyes of 77.
So yeah, so Last House on the Left, and then I think probably his last good horror film was probably Scream 4. But I mean, like, he was even making... like movies like red eye up until the very end which is like in my opinion a tight thriller Well, it's got Rachel McAdam, so we love it. I love Red Eye. I've seen it a million times. But, yeah, I mean, but, like, the impact of a film, like, just, like, the first scream. We're talking about, you know...
If we talked about the trajectory of his career, he has kind of three decades where he's got, or four decades almost, where he's consistently getting hits. Yeah. But here's the really controversial thing, too. Having said that, even though I think that, and this is dumb, it's dumb to try to qualify or quantify why one is more of a horror genius than the other. And while I do think that Wes Craven is probably more of a horror genius,
than Carpenter. I will say I don't think I would trade the thing in Halloween. I don't think I would trade that for... I mean, what's a Wes Craven film I can't live without? I can't. I mean, I appreciate most of them, but I can't really think. I mean, I can't live without the thing.
That's a good... I mean, for me, the Craven films, I can't... Because I know what you're talking about. You're making a really good point that Halloween... and the thing have a level of like technical mastery involved, especially the thing that I don't know if any Craven films get to, um, because they, I don't know. Craven's films are less about that. And it does kind of take away from the staying power. So you've helped me to zero in on this. Do you think that...
John Carpenter was more of a gifted technical filmmaker in terms of his... Well, and also his guerrilla ability to put something on screen that's visceral and affecting. Whereas I think that the psychological depths of horror that Wes Craven was swimming around in weren't always translated as... well technically in his film yeah oh yeah absolutely no that's a great way of putting it and i and i and i guess it's just the part it comes you know
this as many things do come down to preference and my favorite horror film of all time being the shining this film that is arguably almost objectively a mixed bag there are problems with the shining even though i consider it a masterpiece are there problems really i didn't know to me to me there's there's problems with it i think it has some imperfections that's really loving a film is being able to look at it and
just like when with your kids you know it's like i see my kids i love my kids but i can see where they're where they have you know struggles yeah so that's really amazing i can't i appreciate that you can do that i can't really do that with the village Oh, like you see it as flawless? No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I was messing with you. No, you're right. Because if you really love a film...
Rigamortis. Then you could maybe look at it and be like, maybe Halloween is kind of slow paced with not much happening. A little bit. A little bit. I love you Greg. I love you Greg. See and I let me go back. Brother there are sacred cows all around us and I'm just tipping them over. Tip them with me. Go for it.
You're like, yeah, you can do that. But no, you tip them too. I want you to, I want you to. I think my biggest, the biggest thing that, well, because, okay, going back to the Nightmare on Elmer Street thing. Is that... Are you going to tell us in a minute, though, what's wrong with The Shining? In a minute. I don't want to... Do you want me to tell what's wrong with The Shining? I bet your listeners are like...
But anyway, go ahead. I don't want to try to control your state. You say what you want, and then I'll just follow up. Okay. You're like, thanks for ruining my segment. No, I love this. It's almost because, you know, there's... my friend sent me, he's like,
He's like, this is what it's like listening to podcasts. And it's this meme of this girl, like sitting next to like a mural of people laughing and you're like staring at the people. And it's like, you know, it's like hanging out with friends that are like, you can't act.
interact with yes and so this is just me like letting the cork off the bottle of all the things i've wanted to say that's right and because we're in person it's a little more it's a little more conversational even it really you don't get to podcast in person very much no not very often i don't well i will say that um i i think that ron martin the contrarian that he is um loves Freddy Krueger as the pop culture phenomenon. Like truly enjoys Freddy Krueger as the rock star comedic wisecracker.
And he celebrates that as something that's good about Freddy Krueger. And I don't have any problem with that. I think that's fine. Enjoy Freddy Krueger for being silly. I don't enjoy silly Freddy Krueger. as much. And I really think that Nightmare on Elm Street 1, 3, and 7, I love those movies. And I think Freddy Krueger is a part of them. But I, you know, rewatching the first one again, because I've been rewatching along as you guys have been releasing these episodes. Okay. Nancy is such a...
And I think it had a lot to do with me coming to terms with certain things about myself when I was a young teenager. Nancy was such a strong protagonist. And she really fights for herself. And everybody around her is else. is kind of useless and she still kind of finds a way to succeed on her own yes and so Paired with a really genius concept for a film that's really, really heady, Nancy just was a really meaningful character to me. And I think that
what Wes and Heather do through their three films together is really fun and satisfying. So I don't, I will not assign myself the term Fred head. Because Freddy Krueger, I'm not going to watch anything that comes out that has Freddy Krueger in it. Does that make sense? Okay. I don't live for Freddy Krueger. Just because it has Freddy Krueger in it doesn't necessarily mean you're there to watch it. No. Okay. But I watched every single thing that Wes Craven did.
Yeah, okay. Anyway. Yeah, okay. And where are you on the remake, by the way? Just curious. See, we're friends. And? You don't have to get... Well, I left a comment on... Did you read my comment on the most... I have been reading your comments, so I don't... No, it was the one... It was kind of the one where it was like, I guess this doesn't necessarily apply to the remake, but I wrote this comment. I'm like...
You liking the pool party in Freddy's Revenge is kind of like loving a pizza when it's more like a hamburger. Oh yeah, I wanted you to explain it to me. Does that make any sense? I didn't understand the metaphor. Yeah, I was trying to find something that was clever and pithy, but basically it's like, I like Freddy Krueger most when he's not being Freddy Krueger at all. Whoa, that's philosophical.
I like Freddy Krueger when he's Jason Voorhees, is kind of what I was getting the vibes from in that. All you mean, you thought that's what I was saying. That's where the vibes that you were dropping, because you were like, Freddy Krueger is now in the real world, which is fundamentally not what... he is and now that he's not doing this dumb dream stuff like i'm really invested in how dangerous he could potentially be in reality so it was like
It's kind of like, I would really like The Matrix if they got rid of the dumb computer part of it. Yeah. You know what I mean? And then people who like The Matrix are like, but that's everything about it. So I like that. I like everything you just said. I will just add that the other facet was just people at a pool party are scantily clad. And so a dude with knife fingers, you're going to be very good.
vulnerable sure but anyway i loved that aspect but but yes you're what you're saying i take your point because yes i don't like so many things about freddie that I wish he were more like Jason. Right. Yeah, exactly. You're just like, right. I love seafood, especially when they serve it with hamburger and fries. Yeah, that's right.
yeah that that's kind of what i was trying to say yeah no that's good that's very good very good uh the remake uh i just don't think uh i and it's so funny i think it commits the biggest sin that steven spielberg would say about movies which is that i don't remember it and i saw it when it came out and then after you and i watched it like hung out again and yeah and you you
seemed to take umbrage with my dismissive uh dismissive nature towards the remake i went home and i immediately watched it again oh good okay and i still don't remember anything about well that's fair no i i just don't think it added anything meaningful to mythology in a way that like made me love the franchise more at least you're not like ron martin ron martin won't even watch it yeah he won't even watch it and joel just violently hates it
Sure. Period. I mean, he's violent about it. I don't think it's... Look, here's the thing. I would rather watch it than... I think my least favorite entry in that franchise is Freddy's Dead. And I think a lot of people defend that movie as like an oddity, like Rachel Talalay's bizarre freaking John Waters, Freddy Krueger film. Yeah. But I just don't.
That's not a movie for me. And so I think I'd probably rather watch it than that because at least it's trying to be a serious horror film. But I think that... Anything that it does, the first Nightmare on Elm Street already did kind of like more effectively. And it doesn't stay with me. Okay, well that's fair. That was actually me. That's totally fair. So... You're so cordial during my music segment. No, I am on my... Yeah, like I... I can appreciate... You know why I think... Here's the thing.
I think people who like the Freddy remake with Jackie Earl Haley. Yeah. Are people who also... Liked Little Children, which is a creepy drama film. I love that movie. Oh, okay. Well, then I guess that theory is wrong. I torpedoed your theory. Yeah, you did. You just destroyed it. But no, because he's such a creepy... pedophile kind of guy in there and so and i've always thought of fred is uh freddy is a pedophile yeah so he fits he fits that so well
And I love them in that. But anyways, okay, fair enough. I think that's a fair point. And that's actually a point where I do disagree with Ron Martin a little bit about. Because even though they removed the overt...
commentary about Freddy Krueger's origin in the first film about the nature of his crimes. Ronnie Blakely still uses this very, um, uh loaded word which is filthy he was a filthy child murderer he wasn't just a child murderer he was a filthy childhood yes and that's kind of like where i grew up in this place where the word pervert carried deep connotations yes similar to the word filthy yes and so even though i don't think they say it overtly i
I very much have always thought of Freddie as a filthy child murderer. Yes, he's a sexual deviant. Absolutely. Yes. Yeah, and so I don't know if that... I guess because I had always lived with that and believed it, that that movie also wasn't bringing that as a new thing to the table. But I do like that movie, Little Children. Like is a weird word, but I think it's very well done.
Yeah, yeah, it is a wild flick. And I do like Jackie Earl Haley. I do too. That dude, yeah, I think he's... courageous to take on some of his role like I just wouldn't want to be cast in certain roles if I were an actor there are just certain things I would never want to be in a movie you know and like that's one of them Anyways. So, we...
I guess we'll save. Maybe you could get into your... I'm not telling you what to do. But maybe your shining critiques are a better fit for your Dave Z episode or not? I don't know. Where is that? I almost would have to arrange them. I'll tell you the points in The Shining where I start becoming removed from the film. And I think the biggest one is Wendy running around at the end, going through the spook house where, you know, I actually think that the man in the bear costume.
That she sees at the end. That's the single biggest topic that I want to talk to Dave Z about, actually, because that was the moment in cinema that broke my brain as a child, and I never have recovered from it. It weirded you out. that like well because it was kind of like um it created an unanswerable mystery and i remember thinking if i read the book i will surely figure out what this means and i read the book and it doesn't And so I'm like, what the f***?
fuck is this and my 12 year old brain couldn't handle it i'm like what is this yes and that's when i became obsessed with that movie was because of that scene and i just kept watching it over and over and over and it's a different movie every time yeah but i do think that a lot of the stuff like that particular sequence with wendy we depart a bit from the cerebral subdued horror film that we've been in and we go into boo spooky halloween
And so when she goes into the lobby and sees all the skeleton there, for me personally, that has always just been a little too on the nose, a little too corny. Like the musical theme. Yeah. It's a little on the nose. Skeletons in a horror movie is like that. Yes. Not a dirge. What did you call it? Yeah, the DA series. Yeah, yeah, that. Yes, and it is a bit of a funeral dirge, but... Well, okay, let me just say one thing. Sorry. I'm just asking...
Do you think, though, that once her eyes are open to the horrors that abound there, that maybe then she's open to seeing what this place is? And I think, and I love this because I'd love it if you'd fix the ending of this film.
Um, cause no, I think that I'm actually, oh man, that actually, I just want to talk the shining theories with you now, but like that actually coincides with, um, And I can't take credit for the theory, but the theory behind the man in the bear costume and what that revelation actually means to Wendy. from seeing that and how that could serve as the catalyst where everything finally breaks open and i'm actually that is a great i'm getting the chills brother that's a great teaser see hey dave z
Let's get this recorded. Well, I don't know how to get... What do I do? Do I reach out to you and then put me in touch with Dave? No, I... I don't have his number. I totally, I totally give you his number. I totally give you his number. Okay, I'm gonna sext him.
yeah like seriously yeah yeah because he he would that's his favorite film too okay so yeah you guys gotta you gotta do this i would love it would be an honor to have that whole thing and just make sure like bring your sleeping bag bring waters yes because you don't know this but like later tonight when i get home i'm releasing an episode of um
It's Nightmare on Elm Street, the three and four. Yes, is it? Yeah, tonight. I've been waiting for this. And Dave Z and Ron Martin were going around and around about four for so long that Spawn and I... Like, I had to go feed the kids. We went and had dinner. And we were doing all kind of things. And then we come back and give our ratings at the end. It's like three and a half hour review. Just a four.
Just a four. Yes. So what I'm telling you is if you're going to talk something with Dave Z in depth, you be ready to deep dive and be there for a while because you got to camp, brother. I'm in. Okay. I'm in.
And especially if he and I end up arguing a little bit, I think that'll be good. Oh, yeah. You will. Trust me. I've podcasted, I think, with almost everybody on the show at least once with exception of... uh Dave Z and have I with Watson yeah I've podcasted with Watson yeah why yeah well you'll you'll love you'll love recording with Dave Z because When you're debating him, he's actually really reasonable. And if you, if you, unlike some people, no, I'm just kidding.
Everybody's being nervous because they think I'm suggesting them and they don't know. So I'm just going to leave that a mystery. I even mouthed my guess and he didn't confirm. No, I was just putting that out there to drive my co-host crazy. But you know what? None of them listen to this anyway.
Anyway, I'm just kidding. Watson does. Watson listens to the shows. He's a good friend. He's supportive that way. Greg listens. He's our little polar bear. And Greg Morris, of course. Greg Morris listens. And Pearl. Pearl listens. Anyway, blah, blah, blah. I wasn't referring to them anyway, because they're reasonable as well. Some people are unreasonable.
Post-production note, Jay of the Dead here. So at this point in the recording, we had immediately launched into ranking the Horror Avengers on reasonableness. But we decided that it was even more disruptive than I was already being to Kagan's segment. So it has been excised, that little portion. And we put the ranking after this segment. So it will follow momentarily.
okay sorry for the interruption back to the midnight music society you want to play some charlie clauser yeah yeah close us out yeah let's do that let's get you on okay trouble club again sorry i can move I'm such an old timer. Oh yeah, you're falling worse for you. So, Charlie Klauser, the composer of... One of those wonderful situations where a single composer has done every film in the franchise. Yay, we love that.
And Charlie Clouser, famous first for working with Trent Reznor in Nine Inch Nails. And he helped with the album... downward spiral as well as fragile and The thing I think of most, when somebody says Charlie Clouser, the thing I think of most is like, do you know that song from The Lost Highway called The Perfect Drug?
Maybe if I heard it. Yeah. You are the perfect drug, the perfect drug. It's a Nine Inch Nails song, but it's not like their big, big one. Oh, okay. But there's this badass, like, drum break in the middle. And Charlie Clouser is really known for these distorted, intense, industrial drugs. And whenever I listen to that in The Perfect Drug, I start thinking of, like, that's where the saw...
Salim was born. Nice. Was Charlie Clouser messing around in Nine Inch Nails and with Marilyn Manson and Rob Zombie and stuff. Which I know are bands you love. Oh, yes. Of course. As an acoustic guy. As an acoustic guy. So we're going to play the most un-pianistic stuff in the world, which is Charlie Clauser on the piano. Yes. Let's just do the first page, yeah? Yeah, I'll try not to butcher it. No, we're just going to do a little bit, and this is...
Yeah, this is just the Hello Zep from the ending of, which it's really always disappointed me that it never got a more proper name. Yeah. Because it's like, it's the... It's the Saw theme. Yeah, it should be called the Saw theme. The Thaw theme. Yeah, so, exactly. That's right. But, yeah, so this is, uh, let's just, uh... Okay. Let's do some of this. Do I, we both start in 74? Or I could, let me just, let me bring you in like before. Yeah, okay.
that makes the movie better like as soon as that starts playing you're like oh yeah i love this movie it works but every time there's a song i mean a film Ron's make fun of me for not liking, then he'd say, yeah, but if then he played the Saw theme at the end, you'd love it. And I'm like, yeah, that's true. And I would. I probably would. You could just play this at the end. of a horror movie, and even having an awful ending, I would love it again. Can you...
Can you imagine if this was used in a Wendy's commercial or something? Oh. I would eat Wendy's every day. I would. I would. Yeah, they better not. They better not do that to me. It's so amazing. Hold on, we're going to pause real quick. Are we still recording? Yeah, but we can be done in a second because I know Jay needs to leave. No, it's fine. I thought that was like cake was promised. Oh yeah, we should stop and have cake. Yes. I should keep this in. But anyway. Let him eat cake. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, he's going to make some more coffee, but like, let's go ahead and make up our, let's close this out. We're going to make up our own horror theme real quick. Do you want to do, do you want to improvise the melody? Yeah. Well, can I be this midsection? You'll be the higher section. You want me to come up with the... Well, I have something that I just... And it's not made up off the top of my head.
Yeah, that's cheating then. I shouldn't cheat. No, I don't want to cheat. No, play your thing. You play your thing and then we'll improvise something. Yeah, because this feels like that Jeremy Richter, that jerky kid in seventh grade who could play Richard Marks right here waiting. So every time...
he sat down at the piano and played that everybody's like you know and it's like dude it's not that hard but anyway no I'm just kidding but but no I um no we're gonna make a horror theme right now right we're gonna make it okay okay yeah let's do that I kind of want to do like, well, I'm wondering if we'll do something in like, can you make up like a, what, what minor key is going to be comfy? Brother, I like, um, I like all of them, but I, let's do, let's do it.
Let's do A minor, I guess, because that's real simple. Okay, now we could go two different directions. We can do an ostinato theme, or you can come up with a melody. What are you thinking? I know you taught us. what ostinato is and that's a recurring okay yeah okay um or or it can be what was the this Yeah, more like that. Something like that.
Do you want me to just make a big chord progression first and you go with it? Yeah, yeah. I'll just stick to like four chords or something and not go nuts. Okay, okay, and you're gonna, you're gonna be a pedal. Do you want me to pedal or do you want to? Yeah, give me a heavy pedal though for this. I'll give you a heavy pedal. Okay, thanks. Okay, three, four, four, four, six, eight. Ooh, let's do a waltz.
It's going to be on Heretic 2. That's right. Right? Or Exorcist Heretic. Oh, yeah. Or, like, Heretics. Or what would they do for a title, a sequel title for that? Oh, for Heretic 2? Yeah. Outer Darkness? Yeah. I want to do one more thing. One more chord. You do bass this time. Okay, cool. Let's do it. And then I'm going to try and make up an ostinato on the spot. Okay. And you do whatever chords feel right. Oh, thanks. Can I be pedal guy? Yeah.
It feels wrong to not have the pedal, huh? Yeah, I like having the pedal. Okay. So I'm going to come up with just like an ostinato, and then you throw in the chords that feel good for it. Oh, you want me to throw in chords under your ostinato. Okay. Because like, you know, like those things like a phantasm or something, there's the ostinato, but then the chords are the only thing that's moving. Oh, okay. So let me mess around. That's a good challenge.
and maybe i should let you paddle in oh are you sure yeah because then you because you know what you're doing Let's get rid of that G sharp. at myself. I was liking it in the beginning and then I got lost. I think that, if you develop it, that's like put that under a movie like Let's Scare Jessica to Death. Phantasm 10. Yes, there it is. There it is. Let's do it. I like your color. You got those, you're coloring them in there instead of just doing the boring. Yeah. I like minor sevens.
Minor sevens? Yeah. It's like my favorite. It's nice. Okay, well folks, thank you so much for joining us for another very long episode of the Midnight Music Society. Woo! Oh man, it's going to fill out this Thanksgiving episode. I better get an editor. Hey everybody, the Fruit Brute here in post-production one last time. The Vampire Lestat and I also did a read-through of the full Charlie Clouser Saw theme arrangement, and it wasn't great.
But it was super fun. So in the spirit of Saw, we're going to torture you with one last performance on the piano here. Happy Thanksgiving, everybody. too many you turn too many okay here we go you did you did a good try Did you get my hand out of the way? That's what you did in my ball. Last page. Here we go. For a breather we go. Thank you for the conducting. That's very helpful.
Thank you for joining us, and we'll catch you next time on the Midnight Music Society. I have been the Fruit Brew, and joined with me on the piano, we have the wonderful Jay of the Dead, and featuring Lestat. Now, as promised as our main event, we did also record. In the midst of all the chaos you just heard during Kagan's segment, we did record this impromptu list where we ranked the horror Avengers from least reasonable. to most reasonable. And Kagan and I felt that it would preserve
the sanctity of his segment a little better if we just took it out as a bonus extra at the end. And so here it is. You'll hear many radio DJs and talk show hosts talk about how at Thanksgiving time, how you can deal with reasonable and unreasonable relatives at your dinner table. Well, here we have, I guess, our example of the least reasonable. all the way through the most reasonable horror Avengers.
Who is the most reasonable person on the show? Rank them. Oh, okay. Let's do a ranking of the horror venues right now. Reasonable. Like, truly reasonable? Yeah. Okay, let's go least reasonable. And let's have you give a... Let's have you give it. Me give guesses? Who is the 10th? No. We're going least reasonable to most reasonable. So who's number 10? Who is the least reasonable? And I won't be offended.
wherever you place me and don't forget oh you want me to include you well yeah there yeah so so out of um out of spawn all the way all the way through me what would you do what would you do I'm sure the listeners... I almost have to write everybody down just so I don't forget anybody. This is kind of like, I'm writing a musical right now and I have seven characters. Oh, I know, I know. Or maybe I will.
Let me, here we go. Tell them a story while I write them down in my order. Alright, I'll tell them a story. So, once upon a time, Kagan invited me to his place to record his music segment with him. And that was the last time he ever invited me to do anything or talk to him. Because I just totally torpedoed the entire thing. But no, I do think, just so the listeners know, I do think that Kagan and Dave Z doing this Shining episode will be freaking epic because...
It sounds like Kagan has put a lot of thought into this, and I know Dave Z has because he puts lots of thought into basically everything. So that would be a good discussion, and I can't wait to have that on the show. Alright, so Kagan is about to give us his ranking of the Horror Avengers The Least Reasonable as number 10 to The Most Reasonable.
which is number one and i'll tell you my number one um and my and i'll tell you i'll give you my number one and number ten and the number ten will probably be offended but i can't help it Okay, I'm missing two people right now. Okay, there's me, Doc Shock, Gilman Joel. Yeah. Mr. Watson. You have to do an order, right? Kyle Bishop. Yeah, that's how I remember everybody's doing an order. And then we got Greg Amortis. And then we got Macula. We got Ron Martin. Dave Z. Spawn of the Dead.
And then our official contributor is Kagan, the Fruit Breitbart. But he's very reasonable. We all know this. Okay. See, I'm really reasonable. And then when I'm not on there, then I talk smack later. I'm such a Utah. Like if you want to know what people from Utah are like. Just two-faced. No, no, no. Utah folks are, in my opinion, passive-aggressive is my favorite. That's the Utah vibe. Oh, yeah. No, that's exactly. You know, I actually came up with the perfect passive-aggressive.
Here, this will tell you everything you need to know about Utahns. Good, good. Tell them. When you go to a performance like the ballet or the opera or the symphony or a concert, this is what folks do. They give a standing evasion to absolutely everything, no matter how good it is. Yeah. And then they leave early.
So they just want to get the hell out of there. P.S. I don't standing O everything because I'm a musician. Yes. Well, yeah, I'm a hack. But I want to be a musician, and I do not standing O. everything because I know also theater people they take that really seriously and I don't stand and owe everybody at the Hale Center either
No. Screw that. It's got to be standing O worthy. Absolutely. It's like giving a 10 out of 10. You don't give 10s unless it's an actual 10. No, and that's, you know, if my analogy didn't come across just right, because I'm with you too. Okay. Um, it's if you gave a film a 10 and then after you were off the air, you talked about how much you really hated it. Oh yeah. Because you didn't want to hurt the filmmakers feelings.
You had to tell them that their movie was a 10. But then later on, you're just like, freaking no screw that see that's what people will do at the opera they'll stand up and then before everybody's come out they'll leave so it's like which is it is it a standing ovation or is it so bad you have to leave before they actually finish the curtain call wow that's rude yeah that's a utah ham basket plus utahans do fry sauce anyway go ahead i'm just kidding
Go back to West Virginia. He's a native born Utah. I really am. So that's why I'm messing with him. Go ahead. Go ahead. I'm from middle of nowhere. Utah. Vernal, right? Yeah, I always say, so this is the shape of Utah. Do you see it? It's like the shape of Utah. You just do that to show off your biceps. No, no, no, no, no. So Salt Lake's here. He's all like, hey, check out the shape of Utah.
Look at my guns. No, no, no. Salt Lake's here. Yeah, okay. Are you seeing Utah? No. You see what I'm saying? This is just the right edge, the upper right corner of Utah. This is West Virginia. You see that? That looks like sign language for... Actually, no, that's the zapper. Like, you know what I'm talking about? There's wheeling. You know what the zapper is, right? That's what that is. What's Virginia? I don't. Ask Watson. He'll tell you. Okay. Tell me about the Zapper Watson. No.
He was doing the zapper with his hand, Watson. So this is where Vernal is. This is the right-shaped side of Utah. You know, Salt Lake's here, Bear Lake's up there. You know, Wyoming. Brother, this is Wyoming. This is how I would do Utah, probably. My whole joke is that Vernal's in the armpit. Yeah, I was going to say, so it's in your armpit. It's in the armpit. Oh, okay, okay, sorry. Yeah. I was like, butchering. Sorry. Okay.
You know, commit to the bit. Number 10. Commit to the bit. As in the least reasonable on the show. And I will give reasons so that people don't get mad at me. But I'm, by the way, because I'm just an official contributor. And I had to always have been wanting. to ask, why when you spell contributor do you substitute the first O for a U with me? I don't. That's a lie. I don't do that. He's just messing. It took me a minute to get that.
I did all my... You've got these long, complicated bits. I like it. Okay, so just because I personally believe that he's a contrarian for the sake of being a contrarian sometimes, Ron Martin. Yeah. Least reasonable. I agree with that too, by the way. And I love him. I love him so bad. You can't persuade that guy. I don't think I've ever turned him around not once. No. Correct me, Ron, if I'm wrong. Go ahead. Okay, he's next. Okay, and this is weird to put him here because he...
For the record, I happen to agree with this Horror Avenger on critiques more than anybody else. I have, if ChatGPT figured out the closest alignment, this is the person who I align with. But I do feel like he'll kind of dig his heels in more than... anybody else you're gonna say Doc Shock yes yes that's Doc Shock is my next as well yeah Doc Shock he'll really dig his heels in he is a heel digger because once he's decided like where he is where he lands
There is no, he's an immovable object. Yes, yes. And then I would say kind of like on a similar like immovable object wise. Boy, this is harder than I thought. This is... I... Because it's... I'll tell you, you were almost... You can put me next. I won't be offended. It's between you and Joel.
okay because like joel is also one of those people who like i happen to agree with joel most of the time yeah on everything yeah and so it's okay with me that he digs his heels in but he's a heel digger too Like he will really dig his heels in. Wow. But I don't know. He can also be, cause like, I think that we got the really controversial folk. No, I'm sorry. I'm putting you next. I just am thinking about those too many times. So I'm, I'm after, I'm after Doc.
Chuck see Dave I can I'm I'm we're close we're buddies once again just right next to each other because even when I hear you um I'm with you. I can hear you trying to put together reasonable points. I'm in the low end for sure. You are. I'm sorry, my dear. There's no doubt. i agree i agree i'm in the low end of reasonableness and well and i because i i've i've actually said like you're my roger ebert because like i respect you so much and you always have a perspective but then you're also
So very infuriating. Yes. Which is exactly how I feel about Roger Ebert. He makes me so mad sometimes. So mad. I know. Well, and because when somebody that you really respect dismisses something that you really like, it's hard to reconcile. That's right. That's what he did with The Village.
Yes, and you have a perspective on paranormal horror, which baffles me. I'm just like, I don't get it. Especially as a... believer why these movies don't scare you yes i don't get it we are we ought to do a concept discussion on that one of these days but go ahead keep going okay and then interesting next i'm i'm putting joel Okay, yeah, I see that. And then right in the middle, actually, because...
We're transitioning from the more dig your heels in sort of contrarians to the more reasonable people. And I put Spawn right in the middle just because he is your child. Yes. That's true. And I can already hear him, like, echoing your points. I know. And I'm just like, oh, man, he already hates Freddy Krueger.
He already hates Freddy Krueger. I know. And I'm just like, oh, we have a Jason part two. I know. And I try not, but you'll be happy to hear he is a paranormal guy. He likes supernatural horror. So anyways, I'm just saying. Keep those minds open, kids. That's right. That's right, everybody. Okay, just because he can be a little dismissive when he's reached his point, I put Kyle.
You know, like he can be very reasonable to talk to. Yes. But I think that Kyle can get to the point where he's like, he can be done. So he's number four. is where you have him uh five actually is where oh he's number five okay so yeah it's what's interesting about him is when i talk to kyle i say like
Out of 20 things I say, I'll say 19 really stupid things. And he'll still validate me and be able to build off of what I've said with intelligent things, even though I've said dumb things. But I agree.
that it is very hard to persuade Kyle. It's hard to persuade him. If he already believes it. Yes. Which is not necessarily a criticism, but I'm just saying. He's tough. Because what was the... original criteria of this most reasonable yeah okay so reasonable and where we are in this is people who are reasonable 90 of the time kyle falls into that category where he's reasonable Most of the time. So number five is 90% of the time? Or at least 80.
Okay. What's number six? You're such a numbers person. I would say that you and Joel are kind of like 60-40 reasonable. Okay, okay. Meaning 60 unreasonable, 40 reasonable. No, the other way around. 60 unreasonable? 60% reasonable. Oh, that's nice. You and Joel are 60% reasonable. That's very generous. As the Annie Wilkes of this podcast, that's my analysis.
Okay. So I would say Kyle is 80 to 85% reasonable. Wow, that's very nice. Okay. And I think Macula is like right there with him. I haven't heard a whole lot of like... impossible to persuade moments with him. He tends to hear people out pretty well.
yeah yeah do you disagree with this no he's he's an interesting one because if you if you start talking about something he's like like try to review the lighthouse with him for example oh does he hate it he he despises oh i love the lighthouse yeah he despises And I bet you he wouldn't budge much on that.
But he would hear why you like it. But I don't know. I don't know. He's an interesting case. He's a very interesting. I feel like I've heard him be persuaded before. Okay. And I think that's probably why. I think he's heard him be like, oh, wow, I didn't know.
that and yeah i i kind of want to watch that again well he's humble he has he has that bushy-tailed nature to him where he's like yeah he's going to take your words at face value versus like i love you dave becker but like a lot of like if you try and give a Dave Becker that and he's decided he'll be like no I know well Dave Becker will yell at me He just yells at me. He's also tired of your shit. Yeah, that's true. But Mac Yell is like a little squirrel.
Bushy tailed. Bushy tailed youngster. I love it. I love it. Yes. Okay. Okay. Now we're into... Like reasonable 90% or more of the time. Yeah. And what are, how many do we have left? Three. Okay. Okay. Ooh, this is good. Greg Amortis. Greg Amortis. That's right. Because Greg Amortis, although reasonable and totally amenable to other people's opinion. 90% of the time. And he's very, he's the most generous host on ratings to, to, to shows and to films. Yes. I still think that he will.
have the odd hardcore opinion where he is, he's like, I once in a while, absolutely. David Gordon Green. Yeah. There's like an opinion where Greg Amortis is not going to budge. Like no matter what you tell him. I know. Yeah. Once in a while. But usually you're right. Like even with people too. He's also, he seems to get in. the least amount of squirmishes in his life from what I can tell. Like people around him, listeners, hosts. He is just one of the most amenable, amiable, just wonderful.
easy to get along with people no you you definitely want that's why he's fun to listen to i mean well it's and that's why it's a good mix it's a good mix because you need to have people who are contrarians You. That's right. And then you need to have people who are like, okay, I see her. I know. That's a huge reason. And I'm not saying this to just try to make him feel better. That's why I'm such a huge fan of Ron Martin. Because...
I knew that bringing him into this crew, I mean, he is... Yeah, crucial. Yeah, he's crucial to our balance of making things really... wild and crazy but anyway go ahead if you have you ever watched the show shark tank before oh yeah totally totally so i would go there's a good uh film composer friend of mine and he and i would talk movies for hours and hours and hours and i said i cannot stay Kevin O'Leary on that show. Yeah. Because he's such a douche.
yes he's such a douche and i and i'll always tell the stat i'll be like if i was on shark tank and the only offer was kevin o'leary i would say no you're like no like no matter how good it was i'm not working with you i just wouldn't do it and my friend says Kevin, that show wouldn't be what it is without him. Not to... I feel I have to cut this out because I'm making the implication that I've called Ron Martin a douche. No. But I really like Ron Martin. No, leave that in there.
No, no. He's going to hate me. No, he doesn't. He knows. The thing is, he gets that a lot from people. He gets a very strong pushback. But in a way, like, he reminds me. That's what I, to some extent, and these are two very different people. But Bill Shetty was that way, too, as a horror podcaster. Contrarian. Yeah, that dude was a contrarian, but also, in my opinion, he wouldn't budge on stuff. Now, Ron, I think, is open to budging. If...
Yes. But I haven't been successful in doing it myself that I can recall. and so but I but he's used to this he he knows how people feel about his opinions and and I think he embraces it so it's totally good I do. Yes. And I to be fair, if Bill Shetty was on the show, he would be he would be the most unreasonable. Oh, yeah. But I think that people who have a strong opinion, like I'm a fence sitting past.
passive like um person for the most part and like i i would i'd probably be there around the macula range if i were if i were to like place myself in that you're three or four because if you do have an opinion I can get serious about it. I could be closer to Joel in some ways at times too. Okay. Because like I'll...
I'll rage about some things that are going on in Hollywood and Lestat can't stand it. But having controversial opinions... comes with repercussions yes like you can't have a controversial opinion that nobody else has and uh I'm going to take us on the ultimate diatribe before we come back in and close out with Saw here. Yeah. There's only one hill I'm willing to die on in this world. Ooh, okay, let's hear it. You know, people have really strong opinions about, like...
immigration and abortion and gun control. Yes. I can't abide donut cutters. People who cut donuts? Okay. And I am the one person out of ten. Who has this opinion? Is it because it squishes them? No, no, no. It's kind of like, I've tried to make the analogy of it's like, let's say spaghetti was for dinner. Okay. And somebody's like, I'm just going to eat half of this plate, but the other half of spaghetti is yours.
It's like they're making it's just like yeah, there's one plate of spaghetti and they're like I just want half of it though. Yeah, and they kind of like molest the spaghetti like yeah the portion of getting and it's like well that was one portion right that was for that was for one person yeah and now you like have left this disheveled Mess for somebody else. Yeah, and you've kind of like made the choice for somebody else to like share
Yeah. And for me, like donuts are, I love donuts so much. And when I go like, I'll have, this is more common, the experience than not. You'll go into a room and there's this box of donuts and your heart soars with possibilities. That's right. You open that box up and some skinny bitches come in. And I've been like...
I just want to try a little bit of olive oil. No, that's the worst. And I just want a quarter from this donut. And I want half of this donut. And I'm just too full to have a whole donut. And I'll be like, you sons of bitches. I'm with you. Because once they break the hole, once there's no hole in a donut, it's not a donut. I don't want that donut anymore. I'm with you. The only time it's acceptable to cut a donut is if I'm like, hey, Jake.
I'm not that hungry. Do you want half that donut with me? And you have got consent. Yeah, okay. You have consent to have your half donut. I agree with you on this. And you're like, you know what? But when you go, I mean, I'll...
You work in an... Anyway, that's the one hill I'm going to die on. Brother, I'm with you. And nine out of ten people do not agree with me. I agree with you. I agree with you on that. Because, yeah, even my own kids, and I love them dearly, if I open the Krispy Kreme box and there's a half a donut... left i'm kind of ticked off because i'm like i'm like who ate half of that that's weird
Brother, I am with you. It is weird. I would vote for whoever is going to outlaw donut cutting. None of the other issues matter to me. I don't care about the economy. That's right. Now see, here's what's going to happen. If Ron Martin hears this... He's going to argue with you. About donut cutting. About donut cutting. Now Dave Z. Yeah. Here's what will happen with Dave Z. He'll go into a 20 minute. Because he's. I'm telling you. He's already thought this out. He already has opinions.
And he will tell you all of his theories in life experience on why he's decided that. I know. So. Yes. We're up to number two, which is. Dave Z. Yeah, Dave Z. I agree with Dave Z. Because he can be persuaded. I've heard him be persuaded. I've persuaded him. He's changed ratings on things I've said, and I couldn't believe it because nobody ever changed ratings on things I say. So he does. So that's very reasonable.
Yes. Well, and that's actually why when you guys did the take two on Godzilla Minus One, I bothered to go write that massive comment for my defense of the protagonist in Godzilla Minus One. And it was because I'm like, if Dave Z ever reads this, he might be persuaded by it. Yeah. And so it was worth writing. Absolutely it is. Absolutely it is. So that brings us to our number one most reasonable. We both agree. Yeah. It is. Mr. Watson. That is. Yeah. Which is amazing.
Standing O. Standing O. Genuinely, Mr. Watson, yes. I call him the pinnacle for a reason. Yeah. Yes. And I think it's because even if he doesn't, like, I've actually adopted some of his... verbiage in like real life debates where even if you don't agree with somebody at all saying he's like i hear you yeah that's his response if he
He doesn't really agree. He lets you know that at least he listened to you. That's right. I hear you. That's right. I was like, oh, if people could have political debates that way. I know. This would be a better world. I know. I know. You know, however. The only thing I can't agree with Watson on which is reasonableness is his mid-priority rental.
Because that's just a rental. Mid-priority rental. Because if there's high... You tell us. You be an objective judge. If there's a high-priority rental and a low-priority rental... then we needn't say mid-priority rental we just say rental do you disagree sure i mean you do disagree i mean no i i agree i think I think that makes sense. It doesn't get in my craw.
a donut cutting level but like right but like i understand what you're talking about and i i appreciate it's a it's an atm machine sort of thing absolutely and anytime he ever says it machine machine i just write rental So it doesn't make me mad. I smile. And I think, oh, that little polar bear. How endearing.
I love it. See, the segment I want to do with Watson is actually, there's two segments I really want to do with Watson. Does he listen? Oh, yeah. He's in. I can tell you right now, he would be in for a segment with you. He's a big Kagan.
fan oh cool he is love it he is well i'm mr watson fan so um but no what's your second my two segments are i think he and i are the only people who are into kind of YouTube horror and I can tell that he and I get a lot of our um our regular just like passive entertainment from youtube joel too oh does he yeah joel joel too yeah okay that well then joel yes please join us um i i mean and this can be anything from just like
Uh, well, and I guess Ron is into this, too. And Dave Z has watched it. A lot of these guys actually like the YouTube horror. Dave Z does, yeah. I guess it's only because I've only really heard, uh, I mean... mr watson will do like more in-depth like reviews of things like yeah um various paranormal channels or just like scary videos things that don't fall underneath
what we would think of as a film but i like short form horror art on youtube yeah a lot cool and uh i think that would be a fun segment and it could appeal to the kids have so much fun broaden your market there um and then the other one i wanted to talk to um i because of mr watson's special skills yeah i wanted to cover actually politically sensitive topics in horror but do it in a way because like i have this feeling that watson and i might be on like i'm generally a
fence-sitter like i said and including in politics but i think there might be places where he and i diverge and it would be interesting to attempt to have a respectful conversation around some of the more charged things in hollywood right now i guarantee you two could i think you two could successfully do it i think a lot of a lot of plays a lot of podcasts
wouldn't be able to pull it off i mean i've actually i tried something like that one time on movie podcast weekly and we've been friends for years and years and years and we couldn't do it we had to just scrap it had to scrap it because it got too heated yeah We just couldn't keep it together, but I know you and Watson could handle that. See, if Joel and I did a conversation like that, it would turn into an angry echo chamber. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he's fun because he gets ranty.
which I love. I love when he's ranty. He always apologizes for it, but that's exactly why we love Joel. yes the rantiness see and i always i don't want i hope nobody's feeling self-conscious with you and i talking about this because uh with like digest if you want to listen to this before release i have i have stress from it because my sister
My oldest sister used to have a true crime podcast. She's from Vernal. And it was a big true crime podcast for a little while. Wow, okay. Just like hundreds of thousands of listeners. Yeah. I would go on there and casually talk to her like I would just talk to her. Yeah. Not paying attention to the fact that...
everybody's going to hear this. And I remember I talked smack a little bit on my younger sister on it, talking about how, you know, some untruthful things that she had done when we were younger. And I'm like, oh yeah. A hundred thousand people listen to that. Oops. So I don't want to like be smack talking people and be dropping it. No, no, no, I don't. I don't, I don't feel like that's what this is. And the thing is.
Ron Martin, Doc Shock, and then was I next? So since I'm so close to the bottom of that list of unreasonableness, I feel like... I feel like, you know, I'm among them. So I, you know, I don't think they'll mind or care, honestly. I don't. People with perspectives are interesting to listen to. Yeah, and in fact, it's boring if people don't have perspectives. And I do like when people will fight.
to the death. Like when they have a hill to die on. My critique on things, and I don't think any of our guys are like this, is when people are just downright dismissive. They don't listen.
yeah like like you can talk but they're not hearing you they're not letting it in like i dismissiveness is my that's where i feel like frustrated but no i i feel like um You know, I feel like our crew... will consider opinions because we all care about the cinema we care about horror cinema and we're all coming from a perspective and that's why i'm so proud of the team so anyways that's
That's my two cents on that and Kagan's two cents. From an outside... I love it. You know, because you've been listening to a lot of... us for many years now like from back in horror movie podcast days even yeah yeah i don't know what year i found you guys but yeah i i listened to a handful of other
horror podcast but i i consider your shows like my home shows you know like i will listen to every single one whereas like other other shows like i can't keep caught up on everything because especially it is the fashion to release you know, three plus hour shows. I can't listen to apps. I can't listen to everything. Yeah, of course. Yeah, who can? I listened to all yours. Yeah, well, thank you.
Okay, Jay of the Dead here. I just got a little quick update for you during this Thanksgiving celebration. So, longtime friend and listener, friend of the show, he's been with us since horror movie podcast days, Dark Passenger. from iowa actually got to meet him he came out to our salt lake city meetup and uh got to hang out a little bit so dark passenger it was back in late september september of this year 2024 he attended a
horror con called Nightmare Weekend in Des Moines, Iowa. He told me he went with his eldest son and a couple of friends. He called it a horror fans dream weekend. Dark Passenger said they had Art the Clown, Michael Myers, Jason Voorhees, as well as an actor that he's fond of. And that's Devin Sawa, who, by the way, plays in Hunter Hunter from 2020. That's a horror flick. should definitely see if you haven't already. That one packs a wallop. Check it out.
And given that it's Thanksgiving weekend, this Devin Sawa was also in a zombie movie called Black Friday. I have not seen that one, but maybe Dr. Bishop will tell us if it's any good. Anyways, Dark Passenger also reported that like most con...
They had a bunch of artists and vendors there. And the thing that he liked most was, of course, seeing the actors in person instead of up on a movie screen. He said they had all kinds of different events and speakers. I think anybody who's been to a horror con is familiar. with this he had hoped to watch night of the living dead with some commentary and then they had some of the actors afterward but that didn't work out but if you go in the show notes there you'll see uh
Two photos that he sent me. I only posted two of the three. And you'll notice that Dark Passenger, he's aged a little bit. But he looks like, just like Tom Atkins now. It's amazing. Actually, that is Tom Atkins. And so the dude beside Tom Atkins, I'm like, you know.
I met Dark Passenger. And that does not look like him, right? Because I immediately looked at the photos first. And then reading in there, he said it was his buddy that got a picture with Tom Atkins. I'm like, yeah, I'm pretty sure that's not him. Anyway, I guess he was camera. Shire Bashful. He didn't want to put his picture in there for us. So maybe next time. There's also a very cool painting of Pinhead. Little Cenobite Hell Priest action for you.
And Dark Passenger said he picked up a couple of things to make his house more evil. And so he did send a photo of this statue.
And maybe that's something that he was referring to to make his house more evil. But here's the thing. I did not know what the statue meant. And so I was hesitant to post it on the website. I apologize to my friend, Dark Passenger. But I can tell... you this though, my nine-year-old daughter immediately observed, she looked at this statue photo and I quote, she said, he has balls.
I'm like, what, what is it? So anyways, um, I actually do have a good buddy. My buddy, uh, the vampire Lestat actually is a well learned in identifying various statues and of sorts I learned this uh just this past weekend so um I've sent it over to him to look at this photo so when he tells me what it means or what it represents then maybe we'll put it in the show notes here for episode 128. But in the meantime, I just want to thank my good buddy, Dark Passenger, for sending the...
Tom Atkins' photo with his buddy, and also that penhead painting is very cool. And he said you can check out more about Nightmare Weekend at galaxycon.com. I'll have it linked in the show notes. All right. I think that just about wraps up this special Thanksgiving episode and Black Friday episode and Thanksgiving weekend episode. episode of Jay of the Dead's new horror movies. We hope you enjoyed the show. And if you stuck through all of this, I'm very proud of you.
You have finished your meal and cleaned your plate. Bravo. Those who won in Mac's giveaway and the Blu-ray and 4K and Christine model car giveaway, make sure you email your... mailing address to hauntingyourheadphones at gmail.com and remember if you visit our website at newhorrormovies.com and you look in the show notes there for this episode for example episode 128
And you look down at the bottom of the show notes, you'll see all of the Horror Avengers and their various links to their websites and so forth. Once again, I want to thank our official contributor, Kagan, the Fruit Root Breitenbach, as well as the Vampire Lestat. for their musical talents and their contributions to this episode. And we appreciate hearing from Bloody Cabaret as well. All right, so time for pumpkin pie or...
Cannoli, right Dave Z? Leave the gun, take the cannoli. So time for that now. And so on behalf of Dave, Dr. Shock Becker, the Gill Man, Joel Robertson. Mr. Watson. Dr. Walking Dead, Kyle Bishop. The Southern Gentleman, Greg Amortis. Count Macula. Ron Martin. Dave Z. And Spawn of the Dead. We all want to thank you for listening to Jay of the Dead's new horror movies where we are all still dead serious about horror movies.