New Horror Movies Ep. 126: A Nightmare on Elm Street 40th Anniversary Retrospective - Parts 3 and 4

The episode you're about to hear contains major plot spoilers for A Nightmare on Elm Street 3 Dream Warriors from 1987. and A Nightmare on Elm Street 4, The Dream Master, from 1988. Also, be sure to check out the show notes at newhorrormovies.com. for episode 126, where you can see some great photos of Ron Martin with some of the Elm Street cast members. Enjoy. Hello everyone and welcome to Jay of the Dead's new horror movies where we allow straight talk only on this podcast.

For this retrospective series on a Nightmare on Elm Street franchise, I will be your host, Fred Head Ron Martin. Today, we will be dissecting the third and arguably the most popular of the Nightmare on Elm Street franchise, a Nightmare on Elm Street 3. dream warriors with me today to slice our way through the quiet room is the guy with his name on the podcast jay of the dead hey thanks for having me

Also with us is the guy whose voice calms even the most diabolical of the gremlins, Mr. Dave Z. What's up? That's a deep cut for horror Avengers only. So without any further delay, let's move into the show proper. I want to thank you for listening to Jay of the Dead's new horror movies, the horror podcast that will fight claymation skeletons to the end.

For those of you who are new to this retrospective, Nightmare on Elm Street turns 40 this year. And as a group, the horror Avengers have decided that a serious retrospective was in order to pay proper respects to one of the most iconic horror villains of all time.

Plus, we want to be on this good side just in case he invades our dreams tonight. There's no evidence that he's actually dead in these movies, so that could happen. If you've not heard the first episode of the series where Jay, Doc Shock, and myself... discuss the original Nightmare on Elm Street and its sequel, Freddy's Revenge. It's not necessary to enjoy this particular episode, but I do highly recommend that you check it out. It's a pretty good episode.

Speaking of Freddy's Revenge, despite overwhelmingly negative responses from critics, audiences, and even those who were involved in creating the film, It did make money in the box office, and I don't know if you guys know this, but the rule is if you make a slasher horror film and it makes even $1 more than its budget, then you are required to make a sequel. That is Hollywood Unwritten Rules. Good.

Especially in the 80s. Especially in the 80s, that's true. For this particular episode of the franchise, New Line Cinema once again asks series creator Wes Craven to contribute. Seeing what happened last time, he did not contribute. Wes Craven said, OK, I'll write a script. So he wrote a script that continued kind of the boogeyman motif of Freddy Krueger. It's apparently very dark.

and brought Nancy and a handful of other teens haunted by Freddy into the dream world in the same place where they decided they needed to fight Freddy Krueger as a... Which is a natural, I think, evolution from the first film where Nancy kind of fights Freddy Krueger by himself. However, with the film being very dark and had some issues with the.

kind of suicide motif. The director, Chuck Russell, and others decided to rewrite the script and kind of add their own stuff into it. And this is kind of, I think, the... evolution of horror in the 80s by this point in the 80s this movie came out in 1987 I think we had evolved more I don't want to say into

comedic horror because that's not true but we definitely were adding some comedy and some lightheartedness into some of the horror so chuck russell got a couple guys uh bruce wagner and a guy you may have heard of frank dorabont to help him rewrite

the script, and so we get Nightmare on Elm Street 3 Dream Warriors. It's kind of a mishmash of ideas. I think that kind of shows through in the final product, especially if you know that story. So for this... particular movie Robert Englund returns as Freddy Krueger Heather Langenkamp and John Saxon reprise their roles from the first film this film marks the debut of Patricia Arquette and became the genesis for the format of the rest of the franchise this is kind of where

all of the uh freddy very creative death scenes kind of all i think the basis is kind of here although the scenes in the first couple of films were were pretty creative uh so basically this film begot what I call Freddy Mania, which ran wild for the rest of the 80s, and making Freddy Krueger arguably the most merchandise horror icon of all time, sans the Universal Monsters.

So we will discuss this and wrap up as a franchise as a whole a little later on in this series. But for now, let's focus on A Nightmare on Elm Street 3, Dream Warriors, and Jay of the Dead, I want to ask you. What is your relationship with this film? What will be your first impressions upon watching it? Okay. Excuse me. I'm so glad you asked because at this time in the 80s, coincidentally in that.

This is not, you know, retcon memories. This is true stuff. At this time in the 80s, I was learning, and maybe you guys can tell me, I was learning about the whole ability to... realize you're in a dream and then start controlling your dreams. Do you guys remember that from this time period? And I think in my early teens, I shoot, there's a name for that. I had that ability.

And I remember specifically like in every dream, it's called lucid dreaming. And in every dream kind of ended up the same because I was 13, 14 years old. I'm like, oh, OK, I'm in a dream. What if this hot chick comes around the corner and wants to make out with me? So all my dreams kind of ended like that, and then the powers that be decided, okay, he's not using this power properly, and I didn't have it anymore after the age of 14. Yes, yes, unfortunately. But no, so that was one thing.

that I was excited about, just in general, which coincided with experiencing this film. The other thing that I was excited about is I was really into martial arts, specifically karate. Especially the flipping martial arts stuff. And as Dave Z knows, and some wrestling. So all of that to say, I'm just going to put this out there. I do think there was definitely this movement in the 80s, as I recall it. Was this based on Karate Kid, Jay? Well, yeah. I mean, I actually think that Karate Kid...

inspired a little bit in this. We see Freddie do a kip-up just as good as... Johnny Lawrence, which is really freaking cool. And then when Nancy's done all that flipping and stuff and then that drop kick is like the double drop kick. That was super exciting to me because I remember, for example.

In the Police Academy movies. You mean Kristen? I think she dropkicks him. Yeah, sorry. That's who I meant. Forgive me. Yeah, Kristen. How can I forget Patricia Arquette? I love her. Anyways, but yeah, when... When she does that, I'm like – it reminded me as well of the Police Academy movies, and I forget which year this came out, but for example, Citizens on Patrol. That being the fourth Police Academy movie? Yes.

Yeah, good job. I'm so impressed you got it. I'm a Geek Police Academy fan. Oh, yeah. Same year. Okay, and then, you know, the dude. Same year, 1987, Jay. Yeah, same year. And the dude who does all those amazing, Michael Winslow. You know, there's amazing sounds with his mouth and stuff. He usually would have this Bruce Lee themed karate outbreak into it. So anyways.

This movie was right up my alley for all of those reasons. And the last thing I want to say, just for opening thoughts, is Freddy's one-liners, although they irritate me a little bit now as a horror fan. I think that was also influenced. My theory on this is. from Arnold Schwarzenegger action movies. That's when we started getting the action movie one-liners. Okay. After the kill. And we see that here in this film. So it's really cool to me.

And I even I wasn't aware of all these things simultaneously in the 80s, like, what, an 11 year old. But yeah, you would. But no, that's true. But I did. I can tell you now, just looking back, that I appreciated. It was just right in my bailiwick with all the things that I was excited about. This kind of hits all those neat little things from the 80s. And Jay, I'm assuming you did not see this in the theater.

This was probably a rental at some point, right? Right. Yeah, it wasn't in the theater. Yeah, it was a rental for me, too. But I believe this was a new release rental, though. It was one of those where you had to get there. early on the weekend. You do remember that, you guys, when you go to the video store? If you were doing weekend rentals and you wanted to get the new release stuff before...

Blockbuster did like 100 copies of everything. You had to get there super early in the day to get anything good. Well, even they would have like 20 copies of Nightmare on Elm Street 3. And the saddest thing is when you'd go to the new release section is that was the movie you wanted. And all of the all of the boxes. were there, but the VHSs were not behind them. That meant there was none left to rent. Yes. For you Gen Z and millennials, that meant there was none left to rent. Yes.

Yeah, dude, we were waiting around when that happened, and we would look in the horror section anyway, but we would be in the video store for usually a couple hours looking at new releases, looking in the horror section, having fun, this and that, and anytime somebody brought movies...

back we would walk up to see what they were and if somebody returned it boom that's how you swiped it so we were like right on top of it all matter of fact part two i waited around i saw part two before i saw part one and when part two came to video I'm surprised you watched the rest of them. No, I liked it. I liked it. And the thing is, part two, I didn't, for some reason, when the first one came out...

I don't want to say it just came and went, but it wasn't on my radar as much as other movies were. I don't know why. But when the second one came out and he had a name. And it was in the title, Freddy's Revenge. I'm like, okay, this makes it legit now. In my mind, that made him a legit...

horror villain. So I said, I want to see this Nightmare on Elm Street stuff now. So I went to Rite Aid of all places and I remember waiting around. I mean, I was such a loser though, but I took my bike down there and I probably waited five to six hours. for somebody to bring back Nightmare 2. And that's how I got Nightmare 2. Oh, wow.

Wow. I'll never forget it. And I had to kill time in this place. And at the time, they had like, I don't know if they ever did this in stores where you guys live, but sometimes they would have like new computer systems there. And they had like a Commodore.

Or a Macintosh something or other. And you could actually play on the computer. And I was like playing and trying to keep myself occupied. And I waited around this place for hours. And the guy knew I was waiting for it. And when somebody dropped it off, he told me. He goes, it's here. I'm like, ah, thank you. And that was my.

first introduction to Freddy, part two. That's a great story. I love it. Those are the days. It's super interesting that you bring up the action one-liners, Jay, because I do think that was... influencing the horror genre as well. I disagree. I think this came first and it's the other way around. I think that this influenced pop culture all over the place. And again, I'm going to say thanks for it. In a bad way. No, this movie did, especially the horror genre. Oh, my God. But leading into this.

Sebastian Stallone, Arnold Schwarzenegger were having these action flicks where they would spout the one-liners. I mean Predator came out the same year as this. Yeah, but probably in the summer, and this came out at the very beginning of 87. Well. And it was a whole fad going through the horror genre anyway. Here's some other horror films that were released in 1987 that have a comedic bent like Summer Party Massacre 2, which I love. I really love that movie, but most people don't.

House 2, The Monster Squad, Evil Dead 2. I mean, those all came out the same year as this film, and they all kind of have a comedy bent to them. Well, you know what I credit for that? 1986, Jason Lives was the start of all that. The first shark jumper of franchise movies was right there. Part six comes in, they put the comedy in, and next thing you know...

Then we had comedy movies and then Freddy came out and then this one really got it going. And again, I'll say thanks, Freddy, because to this day, I don't like the impact that comedy has had on horror since then. With the one-liners and that stuff. Yeah, I don't mind. I think it has its place in a certain way. It depends on the franchise, honestly.

True. And obviously Nightmare on Elm Street made a big name off of its one-liers after this movie. Like the first movie and the second movie aren't in the same boat. I would disagree with you that the part six is the –

jump striking moment for friday the 13th but that is a discussion for friday the 13th retrospective at some point and i will say the comedy in that film there is comedy but i think it's more subversive in that film than anything else the comedy is kind of front and center here and would overtake the rest of the franchise. But at the same time, if you're New Line Cinema, that's also what makes Freddy so marketable. So he was everywhere between 87 and 90.

because he's the horror villain who talks and we didn't have a lot of those. And, you know, people think that he's funny, which also has the, you know, the effect of maybe making him not quite as scary as he should be. One, one second. We've got to straighten something out here, Ron. Sorry. I've got to straighten out Dave Z. I've got a lot to say. I'm just going to say, let's back up a little bit, Arnold. Okay, so Arnold. The Terminator, right? Slacker. The Terminator.

He says, I'll be back. And that wasn't intended to be funny, but that did catch on as a big thing. And then by Commando, which was 1985, he says. I eat Green Berets for breakfast, and right now I'm very hungry. So I'm saying it's coming from Arnold in the action flicks. Also, The Running Man came out in 87 as well. That's Predator. It had headlines in it.

Oh, for sure. Big time, big time, big time. Anyways. Yeah, so no, I mean, that's fair. I guess Arnold was kind of doing that stuff, and yeah, that is fair. So Dave Z, your Nightmare on the Street 2 story was amazing. Yes, my favorite. What about Nightmare Animal Street 3? Were you hooked at that point? Did you see this in a theater? Did you see this on a video rental? Did you not see it until many years later? Okay, here we go.

So this movie comes out, first and foremost, this movie is special to me. It's... When I watch this movie, it's like hanging out with an old friend. That's my feel. I'm very, very comfortable with it. It is not my favorite in the franchise. My favorite in the franchise is the first one, but this is my fifth favorite slasher of all time. So I am very high on it. Now, when this movie comes out, I'm 14 years old.

And I'm head over heels in love with the horror genre at this time. And I'm running VHS tapes, multiple tapes a week, reading Fangoria, everything just... balls deep into it all sucking it all up it was beautiful a beautiful time so now i remember there are certain movies that i remember the night i saw them and i

I went out to a theater called the Riviera Theater. It's this little thing in North Tonawanda, actually, where I live, a little suburb of Buffalo here. And it's an old-timey theater. It's a small theater. And it has a balcony section and there's a stage there. They put plays on there. So it isn't necessarily a movie theater that you go usually see movies at. But sometimes they play movies. So they would have the screen there and whatnot. But I remember I'm 14 years old.

And so jazzed up to see this. I think the video had already come out for Dream Warriors. So that was exciting. There was a lot of, you know. A lot of stuff leading up to it, man. We were excited. And I remember this night like yesterday. I remember walking into the theater, me and my friends, sitting in the balcony. Way up there wearing jean jackets. Yes. Yeah. I had an ACP hat on the back of mine. Oh, boy. And I remember being there, and every time I watched the beginning of this movie...

When the credits come on and it says Nightmare on Elm Street and then three of the Dream Warriors come out and green like that. And then you see her sitting there and she's playing into the fire and she's building the thing. I it takes me back. to that night and the excitement of sitting there and watching this movie. And then I still remember the feeling I got at the very end when we get that little cherry on top, light in the window.

And it goes to black and the Dream Warriors music comes on. And sitting there in the audience, just blown away. Just what an experience. So this movie, when it came along. It did everything right that a horror movie should do. And it was innovative, fun, enjoyable from start to finish. England's great. The score is great. The soundtrack, characters, effects, kills, just.

And I don't know. I don't know how heavy the nostalgia weighs in. But at the same point, I don't think I'm going to get a lot of pushback from other people that think this is a great movie. So I think it's part that. There's part nostalgia. Boy, oh boy. It's really unfortunate that my love affair ends after this for the rest of the series because to me, this was perfect in every way. And it's always going to be a special movie to me.

And perhaps your love affair ends because I don't, you know, I don't know that the rest of the franchise holds up to this film in the first film. But I loved your description that it was like an old friend. Because that's absolutely the perfect description. And nostalgia does play a role, especially for people our age. Because when I was growing up, I was 11 years old and this came out. I didn't see it in a theater, obviously.

I was probably in fifth, sixth grade, something like that. But it was the talk of – this movie was the talk of the fifth and sixth grade, right? Everybody was, oh, have you seen Dream Warriors? How awesome it is and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So it was definitely in the social conscience.

And that was why at that point, I'm like, I got to see these Nightmare on Elm Street movies because I got to go see this fourth one when it comes out in the theater. I'm going to be this loser at school. Right. Well, and I had a horror bent to my personality at that point anyway. when it did come out on VHS, it would be like, Oh, we don't.

we don't have anything to rent this weekend. We're just going to grab dream warriors again. And me and my friends were playing Nintendo, uh, we're spending the weekend each other and you just throw dream wars on. It's like, you know, the background noise, like having MTV on the time or have dream warriors on. Two, Ron, two two second comments. I'll be super fast. Number one, if we had all lived around each other, we would have all been best friends.

Just like we are now, number one. Number two, there's something to what you're saying that's absolutely true where you feel like you would be behind socially and kind of, I guess. You'd be an outcast sort of if you weren't in on stuff. And that's why in raising my kids.

I brought him up with pop culture movie stuff so they would know what all this stuff is. So anyway, I just want to back you on that. You're absolutely right. I'm guessing the same thing probably happened last year with kids. I'm like, oh, you didn't see the Barbie movie? You know.

What are you doing? Like, are you even do you even care that no one likes you at school? Yeah. But back in the day, you know, back in the 80s, especially by this time in the late 80s, it was Freddy Krueger and Jason Voorhees.

You had to be up to date on those two or you're going to get kicked in the ass during recess. You don't know you're Jason Voorhees? Come on, man. It's funny though because a lot of people – Like, I was known as a big horror fan, and I had friends that were big horror fans, but in my experience, it was already a niche audience at the time, even though it did play to, uh...

theaters and it did make money and it was there pop culturally, especially after this one when he became an MTV icon and a joker and everything and whatever. That's a whole other discussion. But at the time, you know. I was into it. I was like...

I don't want to say the leader, but I was like the person at school that everybody knew was seeing it, and I would talk about it. And I remember I had a kick-ass shirt that I got from Spencer's. I remember it, exactly what it looked like, front and back stuff. I want to find that shirt again because to this day it's one of my – favorite t-shirts I've ever had. Did it have a dick on it? Sadly, no. Most thing in Spencer's have dicks on them.

Now it is, yeah. But in the 80s, they did not. There was that one section of dicks. There was that one tiny area with it, but they had everything. Now it's like... It's like 50% dicks in there. Yeah, it used to be 20%. Here's a little trivia, a little Ron Martin trivia. I got my ear pierced at Spencer's three different times back in the day. Wow. Yeah, all on the left.

On the left ear, because back in the 80s, you only got your left ear pierced. That's right. Mostly because of Lost Boys. I'm not going to lie. Mostly because of Lost Boys. Right. I don't even know why I did it, but I bought the only earring I ever had.

I bought it at Spencer's, and it was a magnetic earring. So you put the thing on the front and then the back, and that's the only – I've never pierced my ears. But that was the only – and, of course, it was a left ear because I didn't want to be – perceived it as gay at the time you know let me uh that's what it was that's what it was that's right left there's not was it true by the way

No, I don't think there's anything to it. I think that was just playground rumor stuff. I don't think there's anything to it. I gotta find out. I don't think having your right ear pierced was like... some sort of sign to others that you were homosexual? I don't know, but I'm going to ask if you were gay in the 80s. It definitely was rumored at the time. I have some older gay friends. I can ask them.

Yeah, I'm curious. I will ask them to find out. Let's get to the bottom of this. Let's solve this mystery. Yeah. Mythbusters. It's a Mythbusters. See, there you go. I don't know if I'm overstating this, but I would say I think Friday 6 and this film. led to the time period in the late 80s where I think horror has been the most mainstream it's ever been.

Yeah. Well, it died off in the early 90s. And that kind of is, you know, it's a genre thing. And a horror movie sometimes surpasses that. But overall, like in the public conscience, I think. From 86 to 90 is when horror has been the most mainstream. Now, granted, I wasn't alive in the 40s and late 30s when the Universal Monsters thing was popular. Forgive me, Ron. I'm always talking. I'm sorry. That's okay.

Sorry. You have to talk over me, bro, because I'm just going to keep talking. No, I apologize. Because I love what you're saying, and it's really like lighting up my cerebral cortex or whatever happens in your brain when you're, like, intrigued by something. But the other thing.

I'm wondering because I think you might be right there, but also what about The Walking Dead? Because, man, that series initially early on took mainstream culture by storm. Yeah, I know what you're saying. There was a lot of discussion about it. I'm wondering with that phenomenon if it wasn't more so the fact that you – it was – the mainstream concerts was more you have to be on the streaming. You have to be on the show as opposed to horror in general. OK.

Okay. Does that make sense? I don't think I stated that very well. No, I see what you're saying. Yeah, I have to think about this. And that was kind of the apex of the whole zombification of the 2010s, right? Yeah, I got it going. But not just that, because I do agree with you, Ron, as far as it being mainstream success at that time. Yeah.

A hundred percent. But I do see what Jay is seeing, but not for the reasons he was thinking. Yes, The Walking Dead was the phenomenon when it first came out. But I want to say shortly after that, that's when we started getting the Conjuring movies and stuff like that. And you seem to see. More people going to the theater, more normies, if you will, casual fans, going to see horror movies again in the theater. It's kind of a big deal. It could be. I'm not.

I wasn't a teenager at that point, so I can't – I'm not really probably qualified to say how mainstream the late 2010s were. I can just say that I've never seen The Walking Dead and The Conjuring films were terrible. That's what I can say. It is hard to – and I'm not going to take that bait, by the way. It is hard to, I guess, assess a period and era when you're in it. But I bet you –

Dr. Walking Dead might say, and I would say that post 9-11 really, really hit us hard with horror again. And I think maybe our. Well, not everybody, obviously, but I think a lot of people kind of looked toward horror in terms of just societal reaction. But but anyways. I guess that's not really what we're talking about, but I just thought I'd throw that out there. Yeah, just one last quick thing, and then we'll actually get into the movie. Okay. Sorry.

As a person who has a degree in history and is currently a graduate student in history with an emphasis, I'm trying to make an emphasis anyway. They don't really have this. I'm trying to make my own emphasis on pop culture. I would love to take a scholarly look at the late 80s as far as how it was affected by horror. I think that would be amazing. Nice. Do it. Maybe I'll have an opportunity to write a paper about that at some point in my graduate studies. And brother.

You are totally welcome if you want to release a series. You know how Mac did the collectors. If you want to do any kind of series through this show along those lines. I'm doing this one. This was mine. This was my idea. No, I know that. I'm not talking about franchises, but I'm talking about your, I guess, your points regarding that. Yeah, I have a lot. I have a lot, actually. So, Nightmare on Elm Street 3. the I mean that

Watching it in 2024, my question is, does it hold up as well? Or are we looking at it through the rose-colored nostalgia glasses that Dave Z has already mentioned? Because coming into this film, this film has some issues. I'm not saying it's a perfect film. By any stretch. And sometimes if a movie is good enough. Or you have enough nostalgia for it.

It can overcome those issues. The issues in this one is pretty big, so I don't know if that exactly overcomes that. I just want to mention this has nothing to do with anything else, that Joshua Gabor gets an opening credit in this for some reason. Right after Dick Cavett. Before Robert Englund.

by the way. Yeah. It's kind of ridiculous. Even though they're on screen, Dick Havid and Jessica were on screen for literally less than one minute. Mm-hmm. It's amazing. See, I miss that. I miss those. That's what I love about the first three. As soon as Robert Ingram became front and center, the series went down, in my opinion. Well, yeah, so this is like the early stuff before he was the big star. This kind of propelled him into that arena, but...

That's what I like about the first three, just like the first four, Friday the 13th. And I've said this about a few franchises. If this series would have ended here. And if Friday would have ended at the final chapter, like the fourth movie, and it was truly the final chapter, I don't think there would even be a question, not even a matter of opinion.

It would just be almost a fact that Friday the 13th would be considered the best horror franchise ever, and that Nightmare on Elm Street would be more revered as a franchise. Oh, I already consider Friday the 13th the best horror franchise. Well, it's definitely my favorite. So I won't say it's my favorite, but I think it's the greatest. It's the quintessential.

Post-production note, Jay of the Dead here, sorry. I will lose my mind if I don't state this properly for the record. My all-time favorite horror franchise is actually the Alien franchise. With the Saw franchise... being a close second and for the record I still feel as I've stated previously that the Saw franchise is the most consistent from film to film in terms of its quality.

Nobody else cares, but if I didn't put that on the record, it would bother me for a long time. Thank you. I love Saw too. Speaking of Saw, how about this is the original Dr. Gordon? Good call. Good call back. There's a lot of things that are introduced in this that will be a regular thing throughout the rest of the franchise. We got a little bit of hypnosis, I think, in the first film, but this is the proper introduction of it.

1428 Elm Street is no longer the Thompson House to be possessed by homoerotic Freddy. Now it's the dream house that's dilapidated, derelict. And this is where you go when you're in the dreamscape. And this is kind of Freddy's playhouse. Like he has all the power here. The house has no dimensions. He can do whatever he wants to do in the house. This is the house probably, as you know, and love it throughout the rest of.

The franchise coming into this movie, there's evidence that Freddy has killed a bunch of kids. They said there's this mass, this mass hysteria of suicides that have been happening, which we can. Right. We as a viewer, we know that's probably the work of Freddy Krueger. So my issue with this is so we've killed Freddy with by not believing in him, not being afraid of him. And then we killed him with love in the second film. But in.

This film, he's not coming back because he's the demonic possession of a possibly homosexual teenager. He's just back. So this is weird to me. He's just back. They don't do anything. You know, I know that. A lot of people give bad press to Nightmare on Street 4 because there's a dog pissing that brings him back. But at least something brought him back. Well, wait a minute. In this film, he's just back. It's like in Friday 4, Jason just...

Gets off the table. He's not dead. You know, at least in Friday seven, he gets electrocuted or something or Friday six. I mean, he's electrocuted and he comes back in this one. We find out basically that. whatever you do to Freddy, it doesn't matter. He's just going to come back. So there are really no stakes, right? The only stake is you're going to live. Maybe this movie, maybe the next movie, although in nightmare fashion.

Most people don't live through two movies because even if you kill Freddy, he's going to come back. Here's my question. These are all single child, only child children. As far as we know, no one ever mentions a brother or a sister. So. The children that Freddy Krueger murdered when he was a human weren't the children of these parents who apparently burned him, which is weird to me. Well, okay. There's a couple things.

I'll say this about the Freddie just appearing. Now, they don't come right out and say this, but it's almost as if they're doing what they did with the... The Halloween franchises when they've had, you know, restarts and whatnot. They're just ignoring the second one like it never happened. It's just like there's the first one and here we are in the second. That's right. This is what I feel. It's like almost like we're completely disregarding the second.

They're not ignoring the first one, which also is Freddy being defeated. But again, that end is always going to be up for debate, and they do address it saying that... You know, my mother died in her sleep. You know, basically saying that that kid did happen. No, those are those are canon. You know, the first movie is canon. The second movie, I don't know about, but.

That's what I think they're doing. I think it's a skip. It's a skip thing. They're not acknowledging the second. They also acknowledge how he came back from being. Well, my two cents on this that Freddie just already being back at the beginning of this film is that. It his appearances, his haunting or whatever you want to call it, is already underway as this movie starts. So so they drop us into the story, you know, so they don't have to explain it, you think? Exactly. Exactly. And so I think.

If Wes Craven is trying to get the ship a right back again, then maybe that's just the way he did it. Well, maybe in his script he had an origin again. Maybe. I don't think – so in this movie, we get into the lore of Freddy Krueger, more like how he was conceived and why he was even like he was. We delve more into the character. He's the son of a hundred.

maniacs or whatever he's the bastard son the bastard son yeah because his mother was a nun who was locked in a room with 100 maniacs for a week and then constantly raped yeah That's insane. That's great. It's great. What a great freaking portrayal. What a great thing to say about the creation of pure evil. I mean you're defiling a nun on top of it and you're already in this place. So now let me address the other thing that you said.

about the Elm Street children. Yeah. See, I've always believed that. I'm more willing to overlook that. I don't think it's something that needs to be overlooked. I think it's great. I've always respected it. I remember when she said that the first time.

And the light bulb went off. I'm like, oh, that's awesome. So their parents were in on the thing, and these are the last, and that's why these ones were targeted. So I always thought that it was a great thing that they – incorporated that in this and of course it makes all the other movies null and void in my opinion because well it makes sense no no there's a no there's a passing of the torch in the fourth one he explains it in the

Fifth film, actually, I think fifth or sixth film, he explains it, too. But we'll get into those when we get into those. That's fair. I understand what they say in the sixth film, and I get that. But I mean, as far like this movie, with what they said, with everything going on, the mythology and the end.

Ending of evil. You can't end evil any better than burying the bones and using holy water and everything else. This is something that nobody should ever, ever be able to come back from. This is what they could have done. Just like this one here in Halloween H2O with the B heading. And they never really did it with Jason except in the final chapter. But then he was dead. They had to go zombie style to bring him back. But to me, for those three characters. Those are the quintessential end.

of their characters it would have been just great that they ended because to me those really are nail in the coffin that's that nobody should come back you're talking about kristin kincaid and joey who are the survivors of this film i'm talking about Well, no, not that. I'm talking about Freddie himself, the way he was disposed of.

That's nothing to come back from. I mean you see holy water. If this is evil, you have a nun on your side who's convincing a man of science, all this stuff, and you're going the religious route and you're burying the bones. That's the tale as old as time. The bones have –

They're – what do you call it? They need to be put to rest. They're just in the back of a trunk. So you're burying the bones. Yes, so many times they've done this with ghosts. It's a horror trope for sure. Yes, and it's a great one when you do it right and execute it. I would absolutely say that the ending of this film is probably the best of the franchise. But I think I know what Jay's problem is, but I'll let Jay say that.

Well, my one critique is when the nun, you know, is his mom, when she prescribes. Amanda. Yeah, Amanda Kruger. When she prescribes what is needed. He needs to be buried in hallowed ground. Right. And now they bury him right there in the damn junkyard. Now, I know these sprinkles holy water. You're trying to tell me a junkyard is not hallowed ground. What is hallowed ground? Let's get right to it then because I did think that.

Exactly. Exactly right. I mean – What is it? What's your answer, Jay? Why is this not hallowed ground? What is – I'm curious. Well, see, my – where I'm coming from isn't a personal – opinion as much as it's a critique of the writing in the film because, yeah, she didn't define...

What is hallowed ground? And I just had to assume. Well, just consecrated ground. We have to assume that because he sprinkles the holy water in there on the grave on top of the body of the corpse. That he consecrated. That it becomes hallowed ground at that point.

But I just wish they had written that, caught that in the writing because it bugs me a little bit. Like you want a couple lines to explain that, right? Yeah, or just – yeah, or different words. It's easy to put in. I get that. Doesn't Holy Water, by definition – make it hallowed ground? Because isn't hallowed ground something that's holy and consecrated and the church stands behind what's happening there? So if you're using holy water, wouldn't that make it hallowed ground? Or am I wrong?

I'll take it a step further and say that I believe it's belief and faith that makes it holy ground. If I don't believe in your religion, this means nothing to me. Yeah, that's true. Well, if you don't believe in your religion, you're not going to throw holy water on them. So if Freddy Krueger was chasing me in the real world, I probably would start believing in religion real quick. Yes. But that wasn't even the problem I was thinking of, Jay. The problem I was thinking of.

It has to do with the rules of the franchise, which Wes Craven and Robert England were so adamant to defend in the last film. But the same thing happens in this film. Freddy Krueger starts enacting. of things in the real world, where he should have no power. Not in the dream world. Because he possesses that skeleton of himself.

And that's a real-world issue, and it kills John Saxon's character, so that shouldn't be happening because Freddy should have no powers in the real world, according to its creator and the guy playing it. Correct. I thought that, too, this time. Even though I've seen the movie 50, 100 times, I was trying – every time I watch something for a podcast, I try to pick up on something else for discussion, and I didn't think about that. For the first time, I was like, well –

John Saxon and whatever, Bill Maher are here, and they're not dead, and they're not dreaming, and what have you. So how is this happening? And I just kind of pass it off as well. He's able to, what do you call it? Defend himself because this is his very existence because of the hallowed ground, because this is basically evil saying, OK, well, if they can do this, I'm pure evil. This is fight or flight. And so I guess he just got he was allowed to buy.

whatever, Satan or whoever's pulling the strings. I don't know. It's hilarious. You call him Bill Mark. He does look a lot like him. That was funny. We get a lot of our Freddy Krueger. iconic pop culture stuff from this movie, right? We get the dream powers, which we already hinted at in the first movie, but we get the dream powers. We get the Freddy snake. We get.

The finalized makeup of Freddy Krueger that will be used throughout the rest of the films, at least in the films, like when he shows up on TV and stuff, it's a little spotty. We get the, you know, the hypnosil. We get the dilapidated house. We get Weston Hills. All this stuff comes from this one. We get a couple of iconic horror lines, like who hasn't listened to the Welcome to Primetime Bitch line a thousand times.

Jay hates that line because it's supposed to be funny. It's fine, but I got to compliment that scene on something, though. Even now, even now, if this... corruptible age that I am or whatever. I'm like so cynical or desensitized or whatever. When it shows that shot again of her just hanging out of the TV, that disturbs me. It's freaky.

It's really creepy. I've got to give them credit on that scene. Yeah, but it was suicide, right? Quote, unquote. The institution calls it suicide even though she's 10 feet in the air with her head stuck in a TV. Right. That is funny. I thought you were going to insult it. I'm glad that you said you loved it because I've heard people look at that same scene and say, well, how is that possible? But it looks creepy.

Oh, I love it. I love this since the first time I saw it. I never questioned it until multiple views because that's how it is. First time you see it, you know, I'm like, wow, awesome. Welcome to Prime Time, bitch. I've seen a girl at a horror convention cosplay that scene. Nice. It was awesome. That's cool. That's a great costume. Wow. One more thing on that. Let me just say, even though it is supposed to be one-liner-ish and all that, I like the line because...

The spirit of it is so evil because her little heart, her fondest dream is to be on TV. And she's got hopes of getting out of this situation. And getting her life on track so she can go be a TV star. And he is mocking that. It's just, it's ruthless. He does that constantly throughout the rest of the series.

Whatever your hobby is, whatever you like, he's going to use that against you. Right, right. That's right. But yeah, so I just wanted to say I can't critique that line too much because that's pretty awesome. Well, and I will. I will say, and I don't think your complaint is uncommon. I heard a lot of people say Freddy's too funny with the dad jokes. But I will say the lead up to those one-liners.

are usually, like, really good. Like, the scene with Taryn in the dream world where she eventually is killed by Freddy, he has the one-liner when he sticks the needles in her arms or whatever and forces her to overdose. But the setup for that, the creepy alley, the weird guy that's there, I mean, that's all really well done. There's a big difference. Before he gets his one-liner, is what I'm saying. And most of these deaths, as we go throughout the series...

Well, I shouldn't say most of them, at least the ones in this film. They're really well done death scenes before he does his one line. Yes, true. Well, check it out. I'm going to I'm going to freaking drop science on all this stuff because I analyzed it. Oh, no.

Because one of the reasons I have issues with what follows is because this was the perfect way to do it all. And there's a noticeable difference between everything here. And I can cite examples starting now and stay tuned for four and everything.

Make sure you're available before, Dave. Oh, I will be, my friend. Are you kidding me? I will come to Buffalo with my equipment. We will podcast in the same room if I have to. I love it. Hopefully by the end of it, I've convinced you and you've solved the difference and you'll be able to say, ah. Now I get what and why he feels that way. Dave, I paid $400 for a picture with the whole cast. I don't think you're changing my mind. Fair.

But you might still be able to admit the difference in the execution and Freddie's style. You'll be able to acknowledge this is the way he did it here, and does it change your opinion on how much you enjoy it? No, I'm not expecting that, but I'll tell you why – and I'll tell you why I don't enjoy the others. But first and foremost, when we're talking about Freddy speaking, okay, you don't even – just like the first two movies.

Okay, you hear very little talk out of him at all for a while. Matter of fact, it is 22 minutes into this movie, the first time Freddy Krueger speaks, and all he says is, you. Okay, then. We don't hear anything else from Freddy until the 39-minute mark, and that is when he says, Welcome to prime time, bitch! Does his thing. Which, yes, I understand it is a little comical, but I also take Jay's side on that, that he was...

When I saw it in the theater the very first time, I laughed and I didn't think ridiculous. I just did not. I enjoyed it. When he says it, Freddy's voice in the first three movies, period, except for one or two lines, which I'm going to highlight. are the same where he talks a different way. Like you could think about the first movie and the things that he says, like this is actually a perfect example. He only says bitch one time in this entire movie.

And that's Welcome to Primetime Bitch. Stay tuned to the next ones and how they freaking beat that dead horse until it was freaking stuck under the ground. He does spell the word though. Yes, he does spell it. I get it. Come and get him. That's fine. But isn't overkilled yet. It's just the one time he says the word bitch. Yeah, he's not Jesse Pinkman in this yet. I don't.

I don't want to jump too far into the next movie or the rest of the franchise, but I will say that I think that was a reaction to Freddy's popularity with the general public. Right, but I don't think it did him any favors because it got too comical, and it's like anything. It's oversaturation. Now it's not special anymore. It could be, and I'm not going to disagree with the later films. I mean we're going to disagree about four probably, but that's foreshadowing the second half of this episode.

Correct. We'll get there. It's going to be great. He doesn't talk again. I can't wait until 15 minutes later. And it's the tongue scene. But listen to the way he says it. What's the matter, Joey? feeling tongue-tied like that and this is the but his voice is different it's not hammy he's not looking at the screen And hamming it up and trying to be Benny Youngman or Henny Youngman. He is doing it to entertain himself and to be sadistic and have fun. Now.

Later on, this is the perfect – Also, there's a whole aspect of Joey not talking and the tongues involved and him talking to kind of mock Joey at the same as well. Yes, yes. A hundred percent. But later on when he does speak on that little part with Taron and he says – Let's get high. His tone isn't – he's talking slower and deeper. There is this one scene which perfectly can accentuate what I'm saying. It's the perfect – the kill of – what's his name?

Oh, well, well, what is the dream master? The killer will wizard will. Yeah. Yes. So that kill there, he's speaking one way and he says back in the saddle. Again, and it's badass. And then one second later, he says something. He never had that tone before, but he's going to have it tons of movie after. And he says, it's the chair for you, kid. That is the difference. I love your impression.

That is the difference between Freddy, that was one line used in this movie once, and Freddy Krueger, the remainder of this franchise. And like I said, he talked so little. 22 minutes, 39 minutes, and then 15 minutes later came the scene. So really until the last 20 minutes when we get, you know, which is an incredibly played climax. It's so weird to know that at 20 minutes left.

He has to dispose of those dream warriors quickly with the feathers coming in and everything else. And there's this stuff going on at the same time in the graveyard and everything else. And then it's kind of a montage of the quick kills. But he doesn't. Ham it up the same way is what I'm saying. Like what he did here was the perfect portrayal of –

In my opinion, if it could have stayed just this way and they didn't crank everything up to 11, 12, and 13 in the next three movies, it would be different and it would have been a more popular and a better series in my opinion. But that's – That's what I wanted to get out there about Freddie's vocabulary and how he talked and how often he spoke. Two quick things, and then I want to jump into the Dream Warriors themselves.

One, I think that scene went with Taron in the alley. From everything that I researched about this movie, I think they just forgot to modulate his voice. That's why it was so much slower and sounds so much just like Robert England. Interesting. I feel like I've read that that was a mistake, but we don't know that. I don't think the people who made the movie said it was a mistake. I think people are just picking up that his voice wasn't modulated there. Could have been on purpose.

You and I are old friends. When he says that, because when he says let's get high, it does work. It's let's get high. I thought that was badass. Secondly, I want to say that I think that what you're saying is part of the effect of Wes Craven writing the first draft of the script. Yes. And I would agree that if Wes Craven kept writing the movies, they probably all would have been much better.

Well, that's why Wes Craven says in Scream, you know, well, I like the first. The rest sucked. You know what I'm saying? He's critiquing that he has the same feeling about the franchise. Another reason why Scream is so great. And Dave Z, just to chime in with you on the drug. kill um the way he delivers that line what a rush i think is yeah i remembered that being played like more hammy but this time revisiting and i'm like okay that's that actually worked for me and it seems very uh

It's just demonic. Yes. You were thinking of Legion of Doom. You were thinking of the Road Warriors. Oh, what a rush. Yeah, exactly. I may be on an island on this. but acting wise, I thought a lot of the acting was pretty good in this film. I, I've never been a fan of Heather Lichtenkamp's acting. And I, I don't think Patricia Arquette is particularly good in this film. Everybody else is great, but I think the two of them.

I think because everybody else is so good, this really stands out to me. The two of them are just not doing a good job in this film. Maybe I'm on an island on that, but the scenes with the two of them that are just the two of them are just brutal to me. Yeah, yeah, I think that's a fair critique. I will say, though, with Heather Langenkamp, I mean, no disrespect. I mean, I don't think she was a tremendous actress in the first movie. Yeah, I say that in the first film. Yes, you did.

Yes, she did. And I think this is her cutest appearance as Nancy. Oh, I have no problems with her looks. Yeah, I'm just saying. Just putting that out there. She's Wes Craven's girl, right? So, like... Whenever he's involved, she's involved. And I think that's true through her whole career too. For sure. I have no problem with any of the acting in the first three movies personally. But that's me. I have the luxury of...

Not noticing bad acting that other people notice. I do point it out from time to time. But a lot of times I just – I don't notice it. And I'm glad. I'm glad. Ignorance is bliss, right? That's right. Absolutely. So let's talk about the Dream Warriors because they're super popular amongst threadheads like myself. And I think in general with slasher fans, they make several appearances in later media because they are so popular, which we'll discuss at a later point.

But so the Dream Warriors, poor Jennifer and Philip, they don't get to be a part of the Dream Warriors. They didn't live long enough. Unfortunately for them. So the Dream Warriors, I guess, technically are Taryn, Joey, Nancy. Kincaid and Kristen, correct? And I would like to say that despite the fact that they're beloved in the horror community and it's a cool group and they have cool looks.

And, you know, I enjoy their presence on the screen. They're pretty ineffective. Freddie kicks their asses and it's really one sided, which is a critique for me. I think it's great. Well, no, I see both sides, but, like, the reason I don't love action horror is because the victims, the would-be victims, are too powerful against the villain.

But the whole premise of this film is, hey, we can actually fight back by using this. So I guess I wish they would have given him a little more leverage on him, maybe just a little more. But they just seem pretty much right. Because. Because half of the film is built up as saying we have to fight Freddy together as a team and we can take him out. And we have all these cool dream powers that we've discovered. And then when push comes to shove, they don't really fight him as a team.

Because Taron and Will get knocked off before they even get to Freddy Krueger. And then when Freddy fights Nancy, Kristen, and Kincaid, he kicks their ass. And he's going to kill all of them if it wasn't for his skeleton being buried in the, depending upon how you look at it, consecrated grave. Yeah. So the Dream Warriors as a group are ineffective.

But they're cool, but they're cool. I mean, I agree with you, Dave Z. You know, like, the spirit of what you're saying. The monster should be formidable. And that's what instills the fear in all of us, because it's like, oh, we're screwed. Right. But but I just think the premise of this film suggests I mean, they're not called dream defiant.

They're called dream warriors, you know, so I think it asks for them to be a little stronger. They're called the dream minor inconveniences. Yes. Thank you. Thank you. That's what I was looking for. Awesome. I think it's fair of you to say that, Jay. I just think maybe, I think this movie is perfectly paced. Something else about the movie that I love? Yeah, it is very well paced, yes. You know?

If they wanted to make the movie longer and add another 15 minutes and have an hour and 45 minute movie, maybe they could have made them more formidable foes and done more with it, but... I think that's what it is. I think that it's not enough time because they had so many of them, and that's why – like what I said earlier, it was almost like a montage of those three getting killed. It's just like boom, boom, boom. In retrospective, and this is speaking with –

100% hindsight. It would have been nice to have a scene with them fighting Freddy together and maybe getting run up on him. And then he separates them. And the rest of me plays out like it plays. Yes. So we can see their power as a group and then their weaknesses as individuals. Yes. Which is also, you know, a main theme in the book and the movie TV series It. And it kind of plays out that way. So I think this would have been a nice.

Nice to follow that, which came out in 86, so right around the same time period. Although, it's like 1100 pages, and then I probably had to read it by 87. Yeah, well, you know, it made them front and center characters. In other movies we've seen like what appear to be formidable foes for somebody. but they didn't make them the main characters. The movie's called Dream Warriors and everything else. So I do understand where Jay's coming from. So that opinion I get. But I'm glad...

that they were disposed of it at the same time that way because it just speaks upon, you know, how powerful Freddy really is. Yeah, in the dream world for sure, yeah. Yeah, you're going to do this, this, and plan and everything else, almost like the first movie, depending on how you interpret it. And at the end of the day, oh. Too bad. You're gone. The best thing of all is the ending with Nancy's father. I mean, to me, I remember the first time I saw it, that stuck with me.

forever is one of my favorite scenes in horror of a surprise and just like wow and they went there you usually don't see it so i just love stuff like that when they pull the rug up from under you you know Yeah, that's another great thing about this film. It kills the protagonist of the franchise. Yes! And she doesn't come back. Which is kind of something we've seen, right? Where...

The final girl from a previous film dies in a subsequent film, and we've seen that in Friday the 13th, so they're kind of following that. Usually in the first scene, though, she's not usually also the protagonist of the second film. Right. But I'm just saying that's that was. Yeah, it's great. I think they did it in. Well, they halfway did it in the Halloween five and they did it really well.

In my opinion, a lot of people didn't like it, but when they did Texas Chainsaw 2022, that was a highlight for me how they did that and how... You know, what happened with, you know, with Sally's character that she actually got a good shot in, but ultimately spent all that time. And oops, sorry. Yeah. At that point, though, they.

People were wanting the legacy characters to be killed off. It's a little different, I think. I always wanted to be killed off. This is why. Maybe because of Nightmare 3. It put that in my head as a 14-year-old that I want the legacy character killed off. Why, to this day, I want freaking all legacy characters killed off eventually. Maybe that's why. It's effective. It's effective, and as a movie maker, I think it's brave.

And you remember it. Nobody remembers that somebody survived some vicious attack like the girl in the last Scream movie. You know what I mean? You think they're completely dead and somehow, oh, we got a live one here. But you remember. When Nancy got killed, you know? Yeah. So I will say that I was 12 years old when I saw this movie, so Taryn was always front and center in a lot of dreams for me.

But so let's go ahead into some final thoughts and ratings here. So Dave Z, this is your chance. If you've got anything else to say, this is the time to do it, buddy. There's so much about this. That is great. We've talked about a lot of it. I think it's actually the Souls of the Children stuff is great when he pulls this thing back and you see the kids in his body and all that stuff screaming. What a great idea.

They took that and ran with it more in future installments. But that was such a cool thing when I saw it here the first time. And I remember my friend had a Halloween costume. The following Halloween. And to this day, I've looked for that mask online and I cannot find it. And he he came up and I don't know if your friends did this, but we used to always kind of like.

surprise each other with our costumes and you pick up one person and you pick up another person and everyone kind of had an entrance with their Halloween costume because we all really went all out. So I remember going to my buddy's house and He comes up, or I think he was getting help from his parents or whatever, and then he came up and he had the freaking full Fred clothes on and everything else, but Freddy's head.

Wasn't the normal Freddy head. It was the head with the souls of the children all over it. Nice. That's cool. I'll never forget it, and I've looked for it online. Did it have Linnea Quigley's breasts on it? That would have been amazing, but no, not yet. Man, but I'll never forget that, the souls of the children and all that stuff.

I think it's – I love the stuff with the skeletons. I love skeletons, and I love the claymation stuff and all that. I love that scene. I remember popping for it the first time. It's amazing. I love that little – how he does for no reason. He does that little spin around. before he hits him with a shovel. And then after he celebrates that way and then collapses. Oh, God. I love it. The Hall of Mirrors.

I thought it was cool, and it kind of set up a precedent for 87 and 88. All of a sudden, I think there was three different movies where you had a character who couldn't speak, and when they spoke, it was like some major moment, and it saved the day. But I think that that was a real cool trick. Keep that in mind when we talk about part four because that's another issue of part four because of what happened with the mirrors here. Just saying.

Amazing scene with the father, like I said. I love the holy water, the way it's portrayed on Freddy when all of a sudden you see the lights coming out and everything. God, there's so many things. Shoot. Okay, I'll just... I'll sum it up. I think there's a lot of much more meaningful dialogue in this one than the other ones. It's important stuff.

I love the group, the Dreamwires, the characters. I love the different score. It's a different score, but it also has stuff from the original movie as well. It does bring back the other stuff. So it's kind of a cool thing. The second one, it was a score all its own. The first one was amazing, and the second one was on its own. The second one did not have the Freddie score.

No, it was just his own thing, and I remember that being a mistake I thought at the time. Like why would you abandon that awesome thing? And I think it's still an amazing score. I just think – You know, it's very different. Where this one had its own score, but it did bring back all the cues from the original. So I thought that was a wise choice. Love the stuff with Amanda.

That was really cool introducing her. Great kills, great quotes. To this day, I always say, have a nice stroll, asshole. I say it all the time. There's so many to Kincaid. You bought yourself a night in the quiet room. My friends and I still talk about it. There's just Kincaid has a bunch of lines. And having Nancy come back is huge. And the cherry on top ending.

which I love with the light, and like I said, the Dokken song. I just have memories, and I think it's amazing. It's a 10 out of 10 for me. And I – there's not a whole lot of movies that I'm going to say I think are a must-see for horror fans, but this is one of them. And as far as nostalgia and everything else, my daughter, my daughter when she was a kid, like –

11 years old. I started letting her watch horror. Nightmare on Elm Street was her favorite movie. And then eventually, about a year or two later, she saw the second. And she liked it not as much as the first, which I'm sure it was a lot different. And she loved the third as well. So, you know, even though she was 12, 13 years old and, you know, Generation Z.

It didn't bother her. She was all about it. That's one that she'd watch. Meanwhile, I showed her the monster squad and she doesn't even remember what it is when I brought it up. I think that one holds up pretty good too, but all right. Well, the thing is I didn't grow up with the Monster Squad, so I saw it the first time when she saw it. So we watched it together. It happened to be playing on Netflix. Let's talk about it. And we watched it, and my takeaway was, yeah, yeah, that's not a bad film.

And her takeaway was kind of the same thing, but she forgot about it. So I think nostalgia weighs very heavy with Monster Squad. And I think a movie like Nightmare 3, you don't need to have that nostalgia to appreciate it. That's what I think the difference is. Not that I'm knocking on Monster Squad. It's just the comparison to two movies she watched around the same time and her takeaways. Sure. What about you, Mr. J of the Dead? Thank you. All right, so I have a –

a couple of things here and, and just a reminder on, we also have a comments in our texts from the other hosts whenever you want to do that. But, um, so just a weird coincidence here. Um, this is neither here nor there, but. This is directed by Chuck Russell. And just last night, as we're prepping for things, our mirror pick coming up is The Blob 1988, also directed by Chuck Russell. That was weird. I thought that was weird, but...

Again, once the audience listens to this, that won't be a month ago probably. I know, I know, I know. Neither here nor there, but it's just weird. How often does that happen? Yeah, that's right. There's a save.

uh save the cat kind of a screenwriting trick where in the beginning we see that our our heroine she runs into the house to save the little girl who was riding on the trike i appreciate that i'm gonna say i'm gonna make a big claim about this film Of all the horror films that I can think of, and I kind of keep track of this unofficially, this has the most, like, in terms of number of stories and disturbing.

It has the most satellite stories, which are those like background little tales that they just tell. But the scariest thing in this whole thing is the satellite story about the kid who cut off his own eyelids to stay awake. Yeah. Right. And then we get the satellite story, you know, about Freddie's mom and what happened there. It's neat that there's a drug.

used in this film to make them go to sleep. And this is another coincidence, neither here nor there, but I recently started this different medication that makes you drowsy. So as I've been watching these run the past few weeks... I'm always drowsy, and I have to stay awake while watching these, so I have this extra appreciation for the characters. Well, aren't you prone to just falling asleep anyway, Jay? I am if the movie's not good, if the movie's not good.

But no, but that's just kind of interesting because it heightens the experience. It's like one of those. Dead series horror challenges. Anyway, there's a Daily Pig in here. Yes, I was waiting. And that pig's a little scary, don't you think? I'll give you this one. It is. It looks good. It looks good.

And I'm sure we mentioned it, but I just want to celebrate it again. The Phillips marionette puppet kill with his tendons being led around by his tendons. That looks like the most painful thing in this movie. And I know everybody like rails about that, but I just love that's my favorite. I thought it still held up fairly well. Yes, it does. I remember seeing that the first time in the theater, sitting down and witnessing that.

And knowing that I was watching a game changer, that I have never seen anything like that in a horror movie before. Seriously, because before this. We didn't see that. We saw great stuff in the first movie. I agree about Tina's death is amazing and so is Glenn's. But when I saw that in this movie, that was another thing. I was just like.

okay, horror is taking – this movie is taking us in a different direction. We haven't seen these type of effects and kills before. Oh, my God. That's one of those scenes where – Your mom happens to walk into the room when you're watching that scene and they're like, what the hell are you watching? My mom always walked in the room when the nurse got naked. I was going to say that for sure. Yeah.

Oh, man. Yes. And then we talked about how, like, action stars like Arnold Schwarzenegger may have influenced this movie. Well, this movie may have influenced The Rock because that interview where he's like... Who gives an F about what you think? It reminds me of, it doesn't matter what you think. Right, Dave Z? Were you thinking about that? Right. So I just wonder if Dwayne Johnson pulled that from this movie. I love the concept that there's, that Freddy's in.

unquiet spirit who must be laid to rest. That's great writing, I think. Because, you know, prior evil, there's so many, like, and haunting and ghosts, you know, they're... They're ticked about something. The worst line in the film, if we're talking about bad lines and bad delivery, the worst thing is this, quote, In my dreams, I'm beautiful.

And bad. Like, no. I don't know that that's the worst line in the film. It's memorable. I remembered it all the way through my entire life. Maybe because I had a crush on Karen when I was a kid or whatever. It's so 80s, man. I love it. Yeah, because bad back then meant hardcore, tough. For sure. Here's a question. Sorry. Go ahead. No, no, go ahead. Finish. Just go ahead.

Okay, I'm sorry. Let's see. The Nun gives us quite a lot of exposition. And the first time I, like, if I had seen this, I'm just saying. If it weren't her role that she was ultimately Freddy's mom, then that would have been super dumb that she had so much inside knowledge. But I yeah, but I just want to say because of who she is.

That works in this instance. Now for my biggest critique of this entire film. This is, and you guys are probably going to have kittens right now, but guys. I'm allergic to cats. My. My critique is I think Freddy is too passive in this film and not active. I feel like the screenwriters were like...

Okay, kids, kids, character development. Let's pull out Fred. Here he is. And then put him away. And then kids, kids, character development. And then pull out Fred. And I just feel like he's not actively. hunting them i feel like he's a screenwriting insertion where it's like oh we've gone 10 pages we need a monster attack well to to what dave z hinted that before uh and i think that

most good horror movies do this. And as you get later in the franchises, it kind of reverses roles because people are expecting the character, they're expecting Jason Voorhees, they're expecting Michael Myers, whatever. So...

What happens in good horror films is you want your antagonistic character to not be the star of the show. You want to get to know the protagonists so that when they fail, you have some emotion. I agree with what you're saying, but I think we're actually... talking about two different things because for me it's not um i don't see enough freddy it's it's it's actually the attitude of freddy he's he seems less aggressive here i mean he plays somebody every single night in the movie he what

He hunts somebody every single night in the movie. At first it's Kristen, and then he kills Philip, then he kills Jennifer, and then he kills the Dream Warriors. The movie takes place in like a week, ten-day span. Yeah, I don't know what it is. Maybe maybe I'm crazy. But like in the first movie, for example, I feel like he's he's so much more vicious in his pursuit to attack. He's like an attack dog. And in this one.

And in this one, he's a little more laid back about killing them, almost like, I don't know, like he's, I'll get around to it. We can also say that just from a character development perspective. He started in the first one, so this was like his first kills. Now, coming into this one, it's been known to us that he's killed a bunch of people coming in. So now it's more second nature to him. Now it's more something that he's more familiar with, and he knows he has a lot of kids that he can kill.

Yeah. But I think that's why the first film is superior because you only have three kills, but it's what leads up to the kills. Like the first 20 minutes of the first movie is legendary, and all that stuff leading up to Tina's death. She starts with a dream. Rod later, it's a long – it's like a long – it's a new kind of stalking scene for a slasher is what they do in Nightmare. But this isn't – I wish I would have been here for the first one because of how much I adore it.

That's what I think where this one was going for like the bang. But Jay, think about this. You say this now, but now – But when you watch the next ones and you're going to see Freddy on the screen way too much hamming it up and everything, you're probably going to wish it was more like this. I mean we'll see. Also, there's a storyline mid –

mid-movie about the hypnosil, and the kids aren't dreaming, and that's why he asked to capture Joey to get them to come back. Yeah, yeah. Okay, fair enough. Well, why does he do that with Joey? That is something weird.

For no reason, he just doesn't kill somebody. He just decides, I'm going to hold this guy hostage. Well, because they're taking the hypnosil at that point, so they're not dreaming. He's taking him hostage so that they'll come back to him. Okay. That's why he writes on Joe's chest, come and get him, bitch. Yeah, you're right. He's fading them. Very good, Ron. That's an excellent point. Very good is right. Yeah, I wasn't even –

I probably did know it at one point, just wasn't thinking this time watching it. Here's one funny thing about Joey. How the hell does Joey play that game where you have to speak? That freaking Dragon Warrior game that they're playing? He's like, no, you have to say it. How can he play it? He can't say anything. Maybe he was just a passive observer.

I love how Dave Z inadvertently conjured Kung Fu Panda into this discussion just now. I love that. Anyway, you are the dragon warrior, Dave Z. Anyway, speaking of dream warriors. For me, this film, I do like it and I appreciate it. And I've always liked it. I do. I'm giving it 8 out of 10. I think it holds up still great. And I think especially if you appreciate 80s cinema.

I think this is a great example of an 80s horror movie. It's classic 80s horror. So I call this a buy. I own it, and I'm glad I do. So before I get into my rating, we'll just mention real quick on our group text, even though he could not be here today, Gilman Joel rated this film an eight and a half. For my. rating and little mini review here. I would say that I think that.

Nightmare on Elm Street 3, well, I don't believe it's the best film in the franchise. I believe it's the quintessential film in the franchise. And if you had someone who had never watched a Nightmare on Elm Street film before and they said, I only have time to watch one, I think this is the one that you should.

them. Nightmare on Elm Street, the original, may be scarier. It may be a better movie overall as far as storyline goes, but this is the Freddy Krueger that everybody wants to know and remember. And this is the Freddy Krueger that started Freddy Mania. So that's why I think this is the quintessential Nightmare on Elm Street film. Even though some of the acting is questionable and I had some issues with some of the storylines, I do think this is a very good film. It holds up extremely well.

And maybe, as Dave Z mentioned earlier so eloquently, it's like inviting an old friend over that you haven't had for a while and getting caught up on your childhood. For those purposes, I'm giving Nightmare on Elm Street 3 Dream Warriors a 9 out of 10. That is my rating of Nightmare on Elm Street Dream Warriors. But do you have a few trivia questions for you guys if you want to try to tackle these?

Yes. If I can go like five minutes, I'm fine. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I'll make up the time on the road. Okay. P.S. There were two other little texts from Watson and Greg Amortis. Just want to tell you that. I did not see them. Yeah. I think Greg gives it a 10 without even knowing. It's his favorite in the franchise, and Watson said he loves this movie, but he doesn't love it like a friend. It's more like a friend to him.

He said a lot of people love it. He didn't give a rating. Yeah, those guys – yeah. So he likes it like a friend. All right. So here is some trivia. First of all – I want to say that I've had two lifelong mysteries growing up as an adult. My first one, I answered, and it was, who holds the door open for Snoopy in... That's a great pumpkin, Charlie Brown. I eventually got that one answered after like 25 years. And diving deep into the peanut's lore. The second one was involved. No.

The second one was involving this film. And if you guys have an answer, please let me know. I've researched this online. dozens of times. Basically, every time I watch the film, I do another dive and see if somebody figures something out. There's no definitive answer. The first time you see him in the film, Rodney Eastman, Joey,

has a little tear drawn underneath his right eye. Yeah. And it's never seen in the film again. There's no explanation for it. I'm assuming it was some storyline thing that got taken out of the film. And I've never found a rational explanation for it. Other than the only thing and it's just a theory. Is that.

uh, in prison apparently when you, when you, when you have a tear under your eye and it's filled in, that means you've murdered someone. Right. You have a tear under your eye and it's not filled in like it was with Joey. That means you are grieving someone. Again, that's just a theory because the filmmakers have never talked about it. You know what? I've met Rodney Eastman.

If I meet him again, I'm going to ask him about it. Yeah. You know what I think it is? It's something you alluded to earlier. Maybe. Maybe. They all have lost a sibling and they just didn't have time to get into that conversation. Well, they can do one freaking line to explain that. There's time for one line.

Yeah, but what are they going to say? What does that have to do with anyone? They say you're the last of the Elm Street children in that room. No, I think it makes a big difference because our stereotypical Elm Street child now is an Elm child. Well, maybe that's why. They were afraid to have other children because of what happened to the children in town.

Speaking of Rodney Eastman, my first trivia question is about Rodney Eastman. It's not really a trivia question as much as observation. There is a running joke online if you're on forums about Nightmare on Elm Street that Rodney Eastman... Very much in this film looks like a future Scream Queen. You know who that is. What?

Looks like a scream queen. You're talking about Joey? Joey physically resembles a person who would become a scream queen later on after this one. Neve Campbell? It is Neve Campbell. Wow, I just guessed. Did you know that? Or are you just like, yeah, he looks like Neve Campbell. I just guessed. I was trying to think what screen could he possibly look like. Look how Rodney Eastman looks like Neve Campbell. It's all over the internet. Interesting. Okay. Before her untimely death.

Being welcome to primetime, Jennifer is watching a movie on the screen in the TV room. What movie is it? Dude, I was trying to figure it out today as I was watching it and I still couldn't. So I'll give you a hint. It stars the great Dee Wallace. Howling? It's not the howling. It's not Cujo. It's not Cujo. It's not E.T. No, it's not E.T. In the same vein as E.T., kind of. Wow. It also stars... Lost Voice? Who is this star? Christ.

The Krites. Oh, the Critters? It's Critters she's watching? Yeah, she's watching Critters. Then she flips to another quick... scene of Alone in the Dark, which is the very first New Line cinema movie, and then she clips over to Zsa Zsa Gabor. Cool. For this one, Dave pretty much already answered it, but I'm going to say it anyway.

Which 1980s heavy metal band makes several references, has several references in this film? Dave? Dokken, of course. Yeah, and they sang the title track, right, Dream Warriors? Dream Warriors, what a great song. Yep, and Into the Fire. And I think that's it. I think those are the only two tracks. Karen is wearing a Dokken shirt at one point in the film, too. Awesome. Yeah. Have you guys seen the video? Yes. Okay. Yeah, it's great.

So the bar that John Saxon's character, Lieutenant Thompson, or Mr. Thompson, is in is called Little Nemo's. What is Little Nemo's a reference to? Is that Captain Nemo? No. Okay. That's a good guess. I mean, that's my guess. Yeah, I've heard Little Nemo. I think it's from like an older movie, though, like a classic movie, but I could be way off.

It's from an old comic book called Little Nemo in Slumberland where the main character, Little Nemo, goes on adventures in his dreams and then he wakes up from his dreams and his adventures are over. He's not a fish. He is a little boy. Okay. So I think that is purposely called Little Nemo's. It's pretty, yeah, because of dreams. Yeah, that's sweet.

That's neat. Why did I think Dee Wallace was in the Lost Boys? What's a man? I don't know what you thought Dee. Oh, that's cool. Diane Weiss is in the Lost Boys. Yeah, with her short blonde hair at the time. It kind of resembled. Okay. There is a Lost Boys, Nightmare on Elm Street connection. I'll get to that when we get to that movie. What? Yeah. Cool. I love that. Yeah. So in this movie, what is the profession of Donald Thompson?

John Saxon's character. You know OJ? Well, he was in law enforcement, right? But is he retired by this point? My guess is he... Probably got kicked out of law enforcement because of everything that happened in the first movie. Right. Is he a security guard? He is a security guard. But he has a badge, which I don't know how many security guards wear like a five-pointed badge that way, but whatever. Well, you only know his security guard because of the patch on his.

on his jacket. Maybe that was just a misdirect you'd make you think he was still in law enforcement. But it's a nice little touch because they didn't have to do that. No one would have cared, right? Two more real quick. What effect was originally supposed to be in the death scene for Terran, but the effects team could not pull it off. So they just cut it from the movie.

Oh, I think I know. We should mention to the listeners that this movie, if you're ever really into this movie, there's a lot of behind-the-scenes footage out there of this movie. The making of stuff. Thanks. I'm going to guess that her head was supposed to explode. Close. Her eyes were supposed to explode, so. Okay. You can see footage of the eyes kind of exploding, but it just wasn't.

It didn't do much of anything, so I think they just scrapped it. Finally, there's one scene in this film where Robert Englund is in the Freddy Krueger outfit, but not the makeup. and it's in the final and it is in the final cut of the film you know what scene that is hmm I have to dive deep because Jay got all my questions right in the second. I have a guess after Jay makes his guess. No, I don't know. Go ahead. It's the scene with Joey being tongue-tied with the nurse situation.

No, but that's a good guess. I understand why you said that. Okay. So the answer is at the very beginning of his battle with the wizard master. Because he's just down the hall in his shadow. So he just had the outfit on. He did not have the makeup on. Cool. Wow. And then later for the battle, obviously, he had to have the makeup on if they were getting close-ups of him. But there you go. There's some trivia about...

Nightmare on Elm Street 3, Dream Warriors. So that is the third movie in our retrospective look at the Nightmare on Elm Street franchise, which is again turning 40 this year, so still younger than almost everyone on the show. At least the majority of everyone on the show. But we were all little children when it came out, at least. So stay tuned for the second half of this episode, which will have the contentious of Nightmare on Elm Street 4, The Dream. Buckle up.

The Dream Master. Yeah. But I am your host, Fred Head, Ron Martin, and... For my co-hosts, the Horror Avengers, Jay of the Dead, Dave, Dr. Shock Becker, Gilman, Joel Robertson, Mr. Watson. Dr. Walking Dead, Kyle Bishop, the Southern Gentleman, Greg Amortis, Macula, and Dave Z. We all want to thank you for listening to... This retrospective of Nightmare on Elm Street franchise on Jay of the Dead's new horror movies where we are beautiful and bad. No problem.

Hello, everyone, and welcome to Jay of the Dead's new horror movies podcast. the podcast where you can check in, but you can never check out. I'm your host, Fred Head Ron Martin, and with me today is the man that Freddy Krueger has nightmares about, Mr. J of the Dead. That's right. We also have my personal favorite horror Avenger, Dave Z. You'll need my powers. I will need your powers. I know.

Think about why your powers might be. It's going to come up later. All right. We also have a very special treat for the listeners of the back half of this episode. Not only do we have three horror Avengers here, we have our horror Avenger in training. Mr. Spawn of the Dead. Hello. Spawn, let me ask you a quick question before we go on. Was this your first time ever watching this movie? Yes. And have you seen the first three? Seen the first one.

Okay, so you kind of went into this with a mini vacuum. You've never seen the third one? No. What kind of data are you, Jay? I know, I know. And you let them watch four? There's a quick note about that. So I was talking to Macula about this last night. If you recall, all of us kind of did this with various franchises where...

We actually saw them out of order too often because it was like whatever was playing in the theater or whatever your friend was renting. So a lot of times we saw the franchises out of order as well. So I don't think it's that unusual. Yes, you know, I didn't ask him if he saw part two. So we don't care about that one. Well, I care about it. I like that. But I feel like part three, you have to see to understand this one.

Yeah, well, I provided the sufficient contact. Hey, don't make me call CPS in Utah. I will do it. And you have to see part three. And how great it is in order to really see all the flaws of how great part four is as well. Yes, I agree, Dave. I'm glad we're on the same page. I can't wait. I love what Dave Z did. I'm glad you guys are on the same page. This is going to be alright.

This is the fourth installment of our retrospective of a Nightmare on Elm Street franchise, celebrating the 40th anniversary of the franchise. And in this half of this episode, we will be discussing a Nightmare on Elm Street for the Dream Master. And we will be spoiling this 35 year old movie. So without further delay, let's move on to the show. We want to thank you for listening to. Check out the Dead's new horror movies, The Screaming Meatballs of Horror Podcasting.

Second to none. Don't let them put you to sleep. He has no mercy. And no equal. Now no one sleeps. Get ready. This August, your wildest dreams will come true. How sweet, freshman. A Nightmare on Elm Street Part 4. The Dream Master. So with the overwhelming success of Dream Warriors in 1987, of course, New Line Cinema 1's quick turnaround to take advantage.

of the Nightmare on Elm Street franchise while it's at the height of its popularity. And we should mention this is also the height of Freddy Mania in America, right? So between Nightmare on Elm Street 3 and Nightmare on Elm Street 4 and a little bit after between 4 and 5 as well. Freddy Krueger is literally everywhere in the country. I know maybe Dave and...

Jay, you probably remember this. Spawn wasn't alive yet, I'm assuming, so he does not remember this. But Freddy Krueger was hosting in TV specials. Freddy Krueger was being merchandised. Literally, you could get a Freddy Krueger door knocker. You could get a Freddy Krueger trading card. You could get Freddy Krueger action figures, anything Freddy Krueger that they could make, they did make.

He had a rap album that came out in this time period. He got his own anthology TV show that would start a few months after the release of Nightmare on Elm Street 4. magazines, talk show appearances, anything you can imagine. Freddy Krueger was there. He was definitely at this point a household name. Everyone in America knew who Freddy Krueger was. The New Line Cinema definitely wanted to take advantage.

Of that. Ron, objective, objective question for you, because I know you're a Fred head. I am a Fred head. I mean this with sincere respect because of that sort of. Over saturation, in my opinion. Don't you think that takes the monster and makes the monster less scary the more familiar he becomes? Yes, but it's a natural evolution of all.

horror monsters. It just happened a lot quicker with Freddy Krueger because he's a talking monster and he has a comedic tent. At this point, I would say Jason and Michael Myers are jokes at this point. Do you not see the TikToks where people are dressed as Michael Myers doing the funky dances? That's true. Do you know what I'm saying? Well, yeah, after Friday 6, of course. That's when everything changed. That's when the comedy came in that way.

Friday the 6th is the fan favorite of that franchise, but you hate comedy. I don't understand you, Dave Z. I don't understand you. You know what's funny about that? I like Friday the 6th too, Dave Z. You and me. You and me were... We're so weird, huh, Dave Z? Yeah. He doesn't like Friday 6. I like Friday 6. I like Friday 6, too. It's one of my favorites in this franchise.

It's good for like a 12-year-old sleepover party. Yeah, it's fine. I was 12 when it came out, Dave. Right. No, and the thing is – here's the thing. I – one, two, three, four. okay to me are what they are and i'm very passionate about them five was a different step and they did introduce more humor in that and i am very passionate but when i saw the things that happened in six it was almost insulting and made me sad.

Because of everything that came before and what it become and how they made Jason do a joke. And they put all that slapsticky stuff in there. I was just like, well, you know, this isn't Friday the 13th. We'll sell that for the Friday the 13th retrospective. Fair. Well, this is this movie. This is this movie to me. Nightmare 4. We can talk about that later. It's a product of its time period.

Therefore, it's adjacent to me. I think that's fair. And this franchise probably inspired that sort of change in tone, I bet. I don't know, man. I think a lot of things happened at that time. We talked about this in the part three episode, right? This is something I want to look into anyway. I would say the introduction of Chucky inspired a lot of that, honestly. Yeah, but Chucky didn't do this.

Chucky was 88, and he wasn't freaking acting like Bugs Bunny until the third movie. Yeah. No, he was way over the top from the beginning more than Freddy is at any point, I think. I disagree. Over the top, the only thing he did was say, F you in the elevator. That's the only thing that people laughed at in that whole movie. Everything else was a serious movie. I laughed at the entire movie. He's a doll. I could kick him in the face.

Yeah, but still, it was presented as horror. You know what I'm saying. It wasn't presented as – anyway, we're off topic. Sorry. Dave, let me get through my introduction before you start talking. Yes, I'm sorry. I'm going to be a heel this whole episode, so I guess I started early.

So with Freddy Krueger being a household name, of course they want to get a script out. They want to get a movie out quickly. That's how it worked in the 80s. You try to put a new movie out every year. That's the Friday the 13th syndrome. But they had an issue. The issue was this impending 1988.

writer's strike. So they had to get a script and they had to get a script quick. They talked to Wes Craven. He had an idea that would basically break all of the rules of dreaming about time travel. And I'm like, no, we don't really want to deal with that.

So they got a guy to write a script in seven days, and they didn't love the script. The basic skeleton of the Dream Master storyline is in the script, but they didn't love the script, and they didn't love any of the directors that tried to get – rob robert shay to take them on for this film rennie harlan for example who ended up directing this film i don't love rennie harlan but

The guy who ended up directing this film was rejected three or four times by New Line before they finally said, look, we can't get anybody else. Just hire this guy. They're casting the main character in the movie, Alice. They go through hundreds of actresses, including Lisa Wilcox. They reject all of them to the point where they have to have a second calling where they bring back the best of the worst, right? We rejected all these girls, but I bring back the best like 10.

At that point, Lisa Wilcox is told, hey, listen, you got rejected the first time because you're too pretty for the role, so she elegant herself up. And then ended up landing the role. So they have a lead actress they don't love. They have a script they don't love. They have a director they don't love. What's up? You don't think Patricia Arquette was pretty? They think that this girl is prettier than Patricia Arquette?

Are they out of their minds? Am I missing something here? I think you are because we're not discussing Patricia Arquette. We're discussing the role of Alice. Oh, Alice. Lisa Wilcox played Alice. I always confuse her and the other one. The names. Tuesday night is the other one. So I was going there. They're bringing back the Dream Warriors. Ken Fago signs on. Rodney Eastman signs on to reprise their roles of Kincaid and Joey. Trish Arquette, however.

does not want to reprise her role as Kristen. So they hire Tuesday night who was actually hired very early in the process. She was one of the first people cast. There's many, there's many like, theories out there as to why Patricia Arquette didn't reprise her role. In the 2010 documentary, Never Sleep Again, they don't seem to know why. There's some speculation that maybe she just wanted to try other roles, or she was getting too big, but it's only been a year. So I don't know what other...

how many roles you can get in a year. And it's not like her acting in Nightmare on Elm Street 3 really tore it apart. So I don't really understand what other roles she was getting. My theory is she had a baby in January of 1989. So she is fat pregnant while they were doing. Yeah. And she's an Arquette. Maybe people kind of like, you know, hit her site and say, oh, yeah, you're better than this. You're an Arquette. Did you say she was? Did you say she was?

Fat pregnant? Yeah, fat pregnant. I don't know if you know this, Jay. I've never heard that. I don't know if you know this, Jay, but when women get pregnant, they happen to put on some weight in their belly because that's where the baby's at. I know, but I've just never heard it characterized that way. That's hilarious. I mean did you see Spawn of the Dead when he was being – No. He was so tiny that he was barely a bump. Yeah, man. Hey, listen. Listen. There are stories of bigger ladies.

That's true. Who did not know they were pregnant. Yeah, true. That's true. That's true. I'm assuming Professor Kit did not have that issue. She seems to be a smaller lady to me. I figured she would know if she was pregnant or not. That's right. That's right. Indeed.

So we have a movie that the production company has no faith in, but they got to put it out because they got a hit while the iron is hot. They have the script. They have a director. They have a lead actress. They don't – they're not really – They're not really behind any of these. The mood I get from watching behind-the-scenes documentaries and from other things that I've read, there's a lot of behind-the-scenes on this one because of the popularity of three.

documentation of four was huge. And I think MTV actually did a special, an hour-long special, the making of Nightmare on Elm Street before the movie even came out. It's available on YouTube if anybody wants to watch it, if anybody's into 1988 in TV stuff. I am, but I'm a collector of Ephemera as well, so that's kind of up my alley.

I also want to mention real quick before we actually get into our personal thoughts and stuff. There was an actual soundtrack for this movie that was released, which was pretty unheard of for horror films at that time. I don't know that this is the... First horror movie ever to have a full on soundtrack with actual bands that wasn't just score. I'm pretty sure I must have owned it at some point. I don't own it now. I should probably get a copy of it, but.

On the soundtrack is a rap song by the Fat Boys, who were big at the time, and they had a contract to be the official rap song of Nightmare on Elm Street 4. Which is where DJ Jassy Jeff and the Fresh Prince come into play because at the same time they released Nightmare on My Street. Which, while the plot points are more about the first film, definitely...

is trying to let you know that they're dealing with Freddy Krueger. They have a Freddy Krueger voice actor. I don't know if it was actually Robert Englund or if they did something with post-production to make it sound like Robert Englund. So they got sued by New Line Cinema because – using their intellectual property and also because it's a violation of the Fat Boys contract that they had, that they're the official rap song of Nightmare on the Street 4.

We brought this up last time. That's why I'm kind of going through this before we go into our personal thoughts. So the settlement out of court was that DJ Jazzy Jeff and the Fresh Prince had to pay. $1 million in reparations, and listened to two movie pitches by New Line Cinema, one of which ended up becoming the House Party movie. Interesting. That's great, isn't it?

So that is the – if anybody wanted to know the story of Nightmare on My Street and why it's not officially in the movie or on the soundtrack, that is why. So, yeah, it's weird because I believe that was recorded after the second one came out because there's no references to the third one. It's all about the first and second. And one more thing after.

This song was reissued years later. The lyrics were changed. The original lyrics, it says, and something about Elm Street was the movie we saw. Anyway. When it came out later, and if you stream it now, it's going to have different lyrics, and it says, we saw Elm Street, and yo, it was death. It does have different, yeah.

I don't know if that was a lawsuit or what. I noticed that as a kid, too. And you're probably right that it was written after the first Elm Street, but it was released in 1988 on the album He's the DJ. Oh, yeah. Yes, sir. First track. It's one of my favorite rap albums, honestly. I have that album in my collection. I bought the tape when it came out. Awesome. Me too. 100%. Congrats.

So let's move on to thoughts and reviews. First of all, what's your relationship with this movie? How do you see it the first time? What was your initial thoughts of it? Don't get too crazy just yet. On what you hate about it, just like your initial thoughts of it. And Dave Z, you can go first. I'll let you get it out of your system a little bit. Oh, this is my first impressions. No, I mean, I was a kid. Yeah, I was right in the middle of everything. Did you see it in a theater?

Yes, of course. After seeing three and everything, all the experience I had that night, sure, I couldn't wait for four. Are you kidding me? It was built up. It was pressed on MTV about it. It was in Fangoria. People were looking forward to it. Let me ask you this, Dave. Do you think – because you loved it as well, and I think you're a couple years older than me and Jay. Is that correct or no? Yeah, so in 88. I was born in 72, so yeah. Okay. So would you say –

This was one of the first, if not the first event horror film. Event. Well, for me, my first event horror film. Like so hopped up, everybody had to go see it. Well, no. I kind of like the It movies were a few years ago. Well, no, you've got to keep in mind there's E.T. and Star Wars and things like that in our lives and Superman. I mean it's a horror film though. They've been a horror film. It's a horror – a big event horror film. Well, to me – Maybe The Exorcist?

Well, the re-release was kind of big, yeah, but I mean – what can I say? Friday the 13th, the final chapter, to me. Was a big experience. I'm talking about as a cultural phenomenon. Right. Gremlins was pretty big too, you guys. I don't know if you remember that, but Gremlins was a big deal. I was way too young to go see that in the theater. I don't remember the hype around that, but I know that it.

Gremlins is one of the reasons we have the PG-13 rating. Correct, and I have a story about that. I was in line at the theater waiting to see Gremlins, and it was at University 8. And somebody put up a sign on the door. Inside going into the lobby part and on the walls, you're in line. And it was like a piece of like typed paper with the freaking little holes that you rip off, like the old fax machine type. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll never forget it. And it said.

Although this movie is rated PG, we would like to advise you that there are some scenes that are going to be too intense and something scary for children under 13. And I remember that was the first time I saw that. And it made me like being like, wow, never saw that before. So that is my memory there. But yeah, Gremlins would be, I would think, no? I mean, what year did it come out? 84.

84, and I saw it in the theater, yes. So your first impression of Nightmare on Street 4, though, was a positive one. I'm not going to say it was a positive one, but I'm going to say – Back when you liked fun, yeah. Well, you've got to remember, I was turned off in 1986 when I saw Jason do the James Bond thing in the opening thing.

And that was two years prior. So I'm the same person I was then. I just didn't like going to make mockery of horror. So anyway. The negativity of the Friday the 13th franchise carried over into the Nightmare on Elm Street franchise. Yeah, because the X started kicking everything off and then Freddy became the worst of them all as far as the comedy aspects. But this movie here, I will say this. I did enjoy.

The kills and the things I got and the special effects, that was quite cool, you know? But ultimately, even the first time I saw it, I was just like, yeah, that seemed like it was trying. to be like part three, but, you know, but not as good. And it was too much, too much choking it up. Freddie's changed too much.

So I was just kind of like lukewarm on it. I was like, yeah, it was okay, you know. So that's kind of how I felt. Now looking back on it, it's another thing because it's more of anger. Well, and I'll let you release that anger. I don't wait to hold on to that. When you get it out. OK, sometimes we need a good cry to make ourselves feel better. Yeah, I'm going to let you do that verbally over the Internet. I hope you're ready. I hope I have so much to say.

You might have to cut me short, but we'll get there. Well, you'll be like my Scream 6 diatribe where we all just leave and leave the guy just ranting. Okay. I'll try for that. You guys can watch that. Like even Jay leaves sometimes when that happens. My feelings won't be hurt. What about you, Jay? Okay, yeah. So I did not see... This in the theater. That was a rough summer for me, as I recall. And it ended up being like probably 89 was when I ended up catching up with this. And I liked it.

at the time because um it has more martial arts in it as well you know yeah we discussed this last time right right yeah and i like the that's what i liked about the dream warrior concept i was i was into that and this even had more of the martial arts, and so that was pretty cool to me at the time. So I know you wanted more of a first impressions, and that's kind of where I was the first time I saw it. So like the first time you saw it, just like Dave, so you're like, that's all right.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was, you know, I've never like loved Freddy just in just monster design or anything. I've never thought he was like the best thing ever. But but yeah, I thought it was OK. You don't have to love Freddy for Freddy to love you, Jay. That's true. That's true. He believes in me. But I'm going to.

I'm going to go real quick here because I'm also of the 1980s, and then we'll let Spahn talk about it, and I'm interested in what he has to say because he did not – he wasn't there when it happened, right? He's coming in. It's very late. Right. So my initial first impression was very much the same as you guys. It was the first of the Nightmare on Elm Street series that I saw in the theater, but it was such a big event.

at least for me in my area, that I actually had to be like we had to have my friend's older brother take us because it was like, you know, rated R horror movie or PG-13, whatever. We couldn't get in on our own.

We had to have our – my buddy's older brother took us in to see it. And I, at first, like everybody else, I thought, okay, well, this is really cool. I don't know if it's as good as part three, right? But I'm pretty happy with it at that time. And then I didn't watch it again for like another –

I know I probably saw it once in like 94 again, 95. It kind of fell out of my frame of reference for a while, as did most of the Nightmare on Elm Street franchise, save for the third one, which we discussed in the last podcast. So that's my initial thoughts in my initial relationship with the movie. I would have a much more I'll have a much more. What's the word I'm looking here for? I have a close relationship with it at this point, having met the entire cast and had.

Of all of the Nightmare movies, this is the cast I've had discussions with the most and hung out with the most. Mostly because they've done the horror convention circuit the last couple of years. celebration of the 35th anniversary, which was just last year. And I have a little story about that. I'll tell a little bit later. And Ron, do you this is not a trick question. I'm just saying, do you.

believe that because of your close association with the cast and everything that you have a little softer spot in your heart for this film because of that well i will say that the only member of the cast that i could probably email right now and get a response from on a personal email basis is Ken Sagos, who's also in part three. Nice. That's cool. I thought about this too.

When I was watching, I'm like, do I have bias towards this? Because I've met all these people and I have a picture with them and I genuinely like them as people. But I came to the conclusions I came to about the movie when we first. Covered this on the Resurrection of Zombie 7 podcast over 10 years ago. Before I met any of them. Okay. Okay. So I feel like that's not.

Making me biased. Yeah, you got evidence then. Yeah, you got evidence that you liked this film even before that. That's fair. Great. Yeah, I mean I didn't want to – I wanted to save this, but I think of all of the Nightmare on Elm Street movies. I think this one's aged the best. Wow. Yeah. I say that because Nightmare on Elm Street, the original, has always been a horror classic, still a horror classic. Nightmare on Elm Street 3 is a great movie, still a great movie.

This one I was meh about for so long, and then it became a great movie as I watched it more and more. Wow. Wow. That's why I think that – It's surreal to me. Wow. That's why I think it's age the best. When I say age the best, I'm not saying it's better than one in three, but I'm saying it's gotten better with age to me. I'm sorry to laugh. Dave's responses are humorous. I apologize. I don't know if this is a spoiler or not because I don't know when the episode will come out.

But during my episode of The Collectors, it might have already been out by the time listeners are listening to this. Macula did ask me, meeting these people, does it change how you watch the movies? And the answer I gave at the time was accurate, but I don't think it was as descriptive as it should have been. And the answer is if the movie is good enough, it doesn't.

Right. So like I've met everyone in this movie. I've met everyone in Lost Boys. I like both these movies a lot. So when I'm watching, I don't think about, oh, I've met Lisa Wilcox a hundred times. I'm thinking about Alice. You know what I'm saying? I don't think about, you know. that I've hung out with all the vampires from the Lost Boys. I'm just in the movie. I'm just watching vampires. Now, if it's a shitty movie, it might be a little different.

I'm never going to be able to watch Terrifier 2 without thinking of the lead actress because that movie is terrible and she has to do something to get people to come. You don't like Terrifier 2? No, it's absolutely awful. Someone didn't show me those movies, so I have no idea. We're working up to it. We're working up. Yeah, I understand that. So Spawn, this is a question for you.

So I'm assuming this is your first watch of this film. Yes. What was your first take on the film? And be absolutely assured you can give your true opinion no one here is going to attack you or anything. First thing that comes to mind. Unless you love it, then Dave's he might. No. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Freddie looks different than he did, than in my memory.

Yeah, well, if you've only ever seen the first film, yeah, he does look a lot different. Yeah, and it was definitely – it felt newer because it was. And then it felt kind of –

Very similar to the first movie, I would say. But I don't remember the first movie very well. And... Yeah. That was my first impressions. Yeah, and your first impression that you... enjoy it was it like man did you like yeah i liked it yeah okay it's okay it's fun you're not like your father right well and he even said is this true you you think freddie is a

A scary monster. Yeah, I would hate to have him chasing me. Okay. Yeah, he is scary. But also to his credit, he didn't live through all of the merchandising and the D. It's terrifying of Freddy in the in the late 80s. And this is a concept that goes way back. Like we've been through it a number of times. Like how many times have the universal monsters been made into jokes?

Yeah. And if you go back to the 1930s and 40s and you tell the audiences then, oh, Wolfman's a joke or Dracula's a joke, they're going to yell at you like Dave Z yells at me. I mean – Yeah. Yeah, well – Speaking of Terrifier and monsters becoming jokes, do you think Art the Clown is a joke? Yeah, he did become a joke in the second movie. Yes, you're right. Wow. That quick? Dang. Yes.

I'm not sure about that. But anyways, back to Freddy. Which that's an interesting analogy, actually, because Art the Clown just based on. Him being a clown has some humorous aspects about him. Now, it's dark humor, for sure. But I feel like Freddy's dark humor as well. I mean, Artacon doesn't talk, so he can't spit out one-liners. Yeah. But asking a question, since you're on that road with the monster, why would a child killer be like Kraken Wise, to quote Dave Z? Okay, well, okay.

Let me respond to this then. OK. OK. So I believe – and this is why I like this movie. Every time I watch this movie, it gets better to me. And that's, I believe, and especially watching the four of the movies that we've watched so far in a row for the purposes of this retrospective series. It's not like this is the first time I've ever watched all the movies in a row. Of course I don't.

That's what I did for a living. Not that I was getting paid, but what I did for a hobby, I should say. I think that's a natural evolution of the Freddy Krueger character. So in the first film. He just has received his powers, right? He just – he doesn't really know what he needs to do. He just knows that he needs the fear of his victims, right? So he does a bunch of scary shit.

The first film is – that's the first film, right? It's much scarier. It's much darker. It's much more Boogeyman-esque, if you will. Then as the series goes on, taking the second one out of the series, of course, because it doesn't really belong. We find that at the beginning of the third film, he's on a murdering spree, right? And in the third movie, let's not act like he wasn't spitting out one-liners in that third movie either because he definitely was.

He's more playful now because he's much more comfortable in his role. And he finds that... He can get like one last little bit of fear out of them like that. And I think this is a natural evolution of that character. And I think this movie is a natural evolution of the entire. of the entire franchise. Now, as we go along, if I remember correctly, it kind of falls off on that. But this, I would say, even though this isn't the best film in the franchise, I would say this is the height.

right of the of the franchise well one question about the one-liners and and we can save this if you didn't want to get into this now but i let's we're into it let's go okay okay because my next question literally i've written down is dave z what is your problem with this film Okay. Let's just go. Okay, well, just with the one-liners in this, see, I actually, in three, I appreciated the one-liners to some extent because there was a cleverness to them, and I could even see a humor value.

In these, I don't think these one-liners are funny at all. I don't think they're as intrusive as you guys think they are. I was actually, when I watched this, and I watched it. This week and I watched it again today leading into this podcast and I watched it this week because I wanted to watch it for the show and I was planning on rewatching and I've watched a long time ago the making of documentary that's on YouTube and I haven't seen it.

in a while, but I didn't get the chance to watch that this week. I was going to watch it today, but I decided to re-watch this film again because of comments made in the text messaging and comments made on the last, the review of Nightmare on Elm Street 3.

by Dave Z and I was looking for specific things and I just don't think the one-liners are all that intrusive in this film and I don't think that when Freddy's in front of the camera he's playing to the camera it's usually a point of view thing or it's a framing thing

I mean I understand where it could be mistaken or taken like that by someone who wanted to look at it a different way. Maybe I am looking at it through rose-colored glasses. That's perfectly acceptable reasoning I suppose. But I just don't think – I just don't think they're as bad as you guys think they are. I will say this as well. In this film – okay, we talked about this last film, right? Robert Englund is credited last of the entire cast, behind Zsa Zsa Gabor of all people.

yeah yeah yeah in this film he's credited before the title sequence yes but they're letting you know freddy's the star and this is freddy's show now it's not about it's not about the elm street kids And fighting off an antagonist. This is about Freddy. And, you know, at this point in horror and slasher horror in the 80s, we're all rooting for Jason and Michael Myers anyway.

Because we know that's the character we're going to follow through the films. We don't have a character that we're going to latch on to that's going to be in five or six films. And honestly, with the storylines of the various horror franchises, we shouldn't. Because if Jason Voorhees can't kill a guy in four or five movies, what kind of horror icon is he? You know what I'm saying? Same with Freddy.

I would say the same with Michael, but his timeline – there's literally six continuity, so I never know what's going on in that franchise. Plus he has Loomis for the first six. Yeah. That's true. Yeah, but Loomis is a protagonist, but he's not the protagonist for those films either. No, but he's another recurring character. No other franchise has that except Scream. But I would say – and this is no disrespect to all the Halloween lovers out there, and I've been on record about my –

opinion about the Halloween franchise. No disrespect to Greg Mortis. It's funny we always say that when we have to say something bad about the Halloween franchise. It just wasn't as big a deal in the late 80s as the Friday the 13th and Nightmare on Elm Street franchises were. Yeah, that's fair to say because it didn't last long. It came back in the 80s in 88, same year as this with four.

And it was okay, and five wasn't really good, and it wasn't received well. And by the time six came out, it was almost like... You didn't even have any fanfare going into it. It was almost like direct-to-video. It felt like it was such a small opening. It really plummeted fast. Like 4 came back because, hey, let's bring back a slasher because they're hot now and sequels are hot. No, I feel you. Because of all of the Hyatt put into this movie is why slashers got reheated at that point.

Yeah, but everything crashed. It's like what happened post-Scream. It's like what I always say. Scream, it ignited things a little bit for like a year and a half, and then boom, it was gone. It was dead. This movie came out. Right. And then what are we getting 88 and 89 as far as slashers? Freaking the only ones we got. Most of them are bad. I don't disagree. I don't disagree with that. But the next three years, all the slashers we got, I think, are because of the success of this film.

This is the highest grossing slasher film in the 80s. Correct, but, but. It's high grossed because everybody was coming off the thrill of three. So why would you think that four would be any different? Now, if you really want to look at this movie, look at the plummet from freaking what the box office brought in for five. Nobody even cared to see it after.

for great i don't think that's true i don't think that's true dave i understand what you're saying to 20 million well listen i know i know i understand what you're saying and that make and that's absolutely correct your box office is only as good as your last film i understand that But also this film was very well received critically. What? It was. Go back and read the reviews. This film on Metacritic is rated higher than Nightmare on Elm Street 3. That's nuts.

Rotten Tomatoes, not as much, but it's not rated bad on Rotten Tomatoes. Right. People like comedy, I think. So I could actually see that. People that were like not big horror heads, like critics who usually didn't like horror. If they saw that somebody was putting something into it and we have a personality in horror and he's joking around a lot. And let's face it, there are clever type ideas. But take that aside.

Most people are going to appreciate the effects because they are done and they're done by quality artists. And they're going to appreciate, unfortunately, the comedy. Because they're outsiders. So they're like, oh, this isn't just straight horror. This is actually fun now. So they rate it a little bit higher. Well, also, also, Dave, taking consideration the time period that it's made. This is a product of its time. And this is what I'm saying about 70s horror.

All right. 70s horror is a product of that time. Everything everything that 70s is very much they want you to know. This was made in the 70s. Right. Look at Dawn of the Dead, for example. That's a very 70s movie. You can look at that movie and say that movie was definitely made in the 70s. Same with Texas Chainsaw Massacre. Same with Exorcist. Same with Omen. These are very – the 70s are very –

They're not making movies that are timeless. They're making movies that are very 70s inclusive. And I feel like this movie is the same, but for the late 80s, for that MTV generation. That's why Robert Englund calls this the MTV nightmare. I agree with you there. It is. It definitely is. Even the early 80s movies, a lot of them when they first came out, like early 80s slashers, 80, 81, 82, a lot of them feel like 70s movies still. Granted, some of them are filmed in 79 and 80.

But you don't see – when people think of the 80s, they think more of the vibe going on in this movie than they would like the first Friday the 13th. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I'll meet you on that. Yeah, 100 percent. I agree. I think this – I mean one of the reasons that I like this film, I think it's just a fun movie.

And I realize you guys hate fun, and you guys eat bread and rice every day. That's so rich. So rich coming from you, Ron, about we hate fun. I like bread and rice. Okay, you would. I just like logic, and there's none to be had here.

Dave, Dave, let me run this through you, okay? First of all, I want to say something that might be controversial for everyone. This has nothing to do with... your logic situation, but I think that Lisa Wilcox on Tuesday night did a better job as the top two leads in this film than Patricia Arquette and Heather Leidenkamp did in the last film.

That's blasphemy to me. Well, it could be, but Heather Lankamp's never been a good actress to me, and Patricia Arquette was not good in that film. There are some clunky performances in this one, though. I'm not disagreeing the supporting cast is up and down. No, I mean, even the leads, though. I mean, I'm serious. Spawn and I laughed out loud in a couple places at delivery.

The delivery and the sound quality are very stylized for some reason. I don't know if that was a budget issue or not. But that's throughout the film though. I don't think that's the acting. I really think this would be much more – I think Dave D would love this more if it didn't have Rennie Harlan at the helm, honestly. No, no, no, no, no, no. Rennie Harlan is – I don't like him because he made this movie.

It's the other way around. This is my favorite Steve Harlan film. This is – I am now – I kind of like Cliffhanger I guess but – Actually, I like The New Strangers, and I like the foul footage movie that Jay didn't like back in the day, the one about the – Hey, if this one came out in – Devil's Pass. Wait, wait, wait. I love Devil's Pass.

Okay, someone else on the early days of HMP was talking about it, and they didn't like it, so maybe I'm wrong. Yeah, that wasn't – in fact, just a side note, I just barely watched that for the first time and loved it just recently on HMP. Sweet!

Horror Movie Weekly. But anyway, back to that. So let's talk plot real quick, Dave Z, okay? Listen to me. Listen to me, though. I mean, if I go in order, I'm going to listen. Let me explain this to you real quick, and then you can destroy me if you want to. Oh, boy. So the beginning of this film, we bring back the remaining survivors from the previous film, except for the doctor. Right. We recast upward trajectory, in my opinion, Kristen. So Kristen's paranoia.

about Freddy Krueger leads him to having a year of gaining power because we know he gets power when someone fears him and she definitely fears him and keeps pulling Kincaid and Joey back into

Her dreams. By the way, if anyone wants to know what I was like in high school, Joey's pretty much it. That's pretty much what I look like in high school. That's not as Nev Campbell-ish. I wasn't as pretty. And you used to be a debater too, and you still are. And I had long hair, and I wore the T-shirts and ripped jeans, but that's – I didn't have a sweet setup as he had in his bedroom. That was a pretty sweet setup he had. He didn't shut up for a little while like he did. What's that?

I said too bad he didn't shut up for a while like he did. I'll never shut up, Dave C. You will never shut up. I'm sorry. I couldn't help it. I love you, dude. No, no, no, no. I just had to say it. It's fine. I had a waterbed. Did you guys have waterbeds, by the way? Yes. Yes, I did. I didn't have one, but I've been on many of them. But I did not have hope. Waterbeds are a mess. I'm glad they were only a fad. Anyways.

Anyway, because of her paranoia about him coming back, he gains power and enough power to eventually resurrect himself. But he's in the consecrated grave, right? So he – when Kincaid – he can finally pull Kincaid into a dream. Someone else other than Kristen, right? He pulls Kincaid into a nightmare. But that's not Kincaid's dog because Kincaid doesn't have the power to pull other people into his dreams. That's Kristen's power. So that's a dream dog.

So Kristen decided out of nowhere that just in case this dog is asleep, I'm going to pull him into? This isn't Kristen's dream. This is Kincaid's dream. Well, there he is. Kikade can't pull people into his dreams. He's a super powerful, right? Right, but doesn't – This is a dream dog that Freddy uses to unconsecrate his grave so he can rise again, which he does.

You're saying that's not Kincaid's dog. It's a dream dog. It can't be Kincaid's dog. It exists. Its name is Jason. Wait a second. Yeah. Yeah. Which is a slight to. Friday the 13th. Probably. Yeah, probably. I'm certain. Isn't this light, though? Isn't this light, though? Yeah, I am 100% certain. Because Jason literally, like, sees fire onto Freddy. How is that? Well, they wanted to diss Friday the 13th, and I think that's hilarious. So that's the funniest part. But no.

Ron, I think that is Kincaid's dog, Jason, because... It's a dream version of Kincaid's dog, Jason. No, every time you see him, though, he's not. Kristen's not asleep. She can't pull the dog. No, I get that. But she gets bit by the dog. Am I correct? In the first dream. This is the second dream. Well, either way, I'm going back to even the first dream because you didn't mention the dog.

I'm going back – well, I mean, yes, the dog has been pulled into the dream before. So I'm going to where Freddy resurrected himself, which a lot of people have a problem with because it's allegedly a dog pissing on a grave, which I understand. is, you know, it's just silly, but it's not, it's just fire.

And second, this is a dream dog. It's not actually Kincaid's dog. Kincaid's dog is not asleep, and Kincaid cannot pull a dog into his dreams. That's terrible. That's not worse than what they gave us. Why would it be? We're ready to unconsecrate his grave in the dream world. Ron, if it takes a dream dog to resurrect Freddy and he can instigate this, why didn't he do it sooner than this?

Because I just said because he was slowly gaining power over the year because he needs fear to have power, and no one feared him except for Kristen. So Kristen's paranoia eventually gave him enough power to resurrect himself. With a green dog. It still doesn't make sense. I think it makes... Even for Freddy, that's far-fetched. I think it makes sense. He said fetched. Green dog. Yeah, fetched! Brilliant! Oh, wow. The dog... The dog missing fire on the grave. Brilliant.

That was just whatever. I'm choosing to believe it was to unconsecrate the grave. Now, Rennie Harlan in Never Sleep Again just says they were rewriting the script. Like they started filming before the script was done, and they were doing rewrites without a writer on script because there was a writer's strike. So it's something he came up with and actually ran it by James Cameron of all people. Today they think it's something silly.

But I'm going to invoke Jay, right? Jay, who in part two – I don't think you're around for this, Dave Z, but in part two, Jay – Came up with a point, and he said death to the author, right? I can think of what I want to think. So I'm invoking death to the author. That's correct, yes. Even if I have to eat a little shit from what I gave Jay from the second film. You can read. I'm okay with that. Yes.

So I'm invoking death to the author, and I think that the dog pissing fire – which it's not piss. It's just fire coming out of a – That general area. And I believe it's unconsecrating the grave so that Freddy can rise again in the dream world. Then he kills all the dream warriors real quick because as we learned in the last episode, dream warriors are not effective. Right. And then at this point, the last Elm Street kid left is Kristen.

And we know that she can pull other people in her dreams. That's her power, right? So Freddy attacking her. And, you know, there's lots in her last dream there. There's lots of references to Alice. So she automatically thinks of Alice and accidentally pulls Alice into her dream, giving Freddy more people to kill because he's run out of Elm Street kids and he wants to keep killing. So because she has.

She accidentally pulled Alice into her dream. She knows she's going to die, so she passes Alice her powers of pulling people into dreams, which we learned throughout the movie. Alice is the dream master because of this. mythology that she studied because of her mother throughout the course of the years. So now the rest of the movie, whenever Alice falls asleep, someone dies. I mean, that's the basic thought of the movie.

I mean, I didn't understand that when I was 12 or 13 years old, but I certainly got that in later viewings and I. In this viewing that I just watched today, I was like, man, this is actually I know they didn't mean this. They really stumbled onto this and it was a complete accident. This is actually a really good story.

And I love the evolution of Freddy Krueger. I love the evolution of the final girl going from Nancy to Kristen to Alice. Do you know what I love, Ron? I love seeing you feel so passionate. And it's heartwarming to see you fight for a film like this. I love it. Don't you, Dave Z? Isn't that just endearing you? For once in my life, I'm not on an island. This film is generally well received by the general public and critics.

And I will say that in my time between when I first reviewed these films on my old podcast and now I have gotten into studying and the collection of Ephemira. And if you're. Looking into that, especially in the late 80s time period, which is a time period that I hold dear because that's my formative years, 12 to 15, then Freddy Krueger is going to be a big part of that.

He just is like he's just a part of mainstream, no matter what you're looking at. There's Freddy Krueger is there in your face. So that's why I've come in with a new appreciation of the character and the franchise. I've always liked the franchise. But I think because of that switch and focus for me, I now love the franchise, if that makes sense. Okay.

These first four movies, well, three of the first four movies, I think are just so solid together. I don't see a hole in it, but apparently you guys do because you guys don't like comedy. Oh, no. I don't like the comedy, but all the stuff about the plot has nothing to do with – because of comedy. It has to do with nonsense, and I'm just so surprised. Yeah, what's your problem with the plot? I just told you the plot.

I just told you the plot as I see it. The only plot hole I see is where is Hypnosil when it was in the last film. We could have that here, and no one would be dying. I have never taken as many notes for one movie as I have for this one. This is like four pages worth of notes. Now, probably like six pages, considering it's like I watch six movies. That's what I have. I have six.

Pages worth of notes. There's only a few movies I have this many notes for. I love you, Dave C. You're my favorite Horror Avenger. Thanks, brother. This and Insidious 2 are the only movies that I have this many. Things on it, and 90% of them end with a question mark because none of it makes sense, and I have questions, and I define – Listen, I can't explain it. I will openly say I can't explain it. Well, here's the deal, brother. You can put up with me as long as you want because –

I am going to tell you everything in order. All I got to do is grocery shop tonight, and the grocery store is open until 11. Let's go. Okay, but I will tell you before, at the one hour mark, I have every single mitten. Minute written down from 1 to 101 to 102. OK, all the way until one hour and 30 and 26 minutes.

And every one of them is going to have a complaint and why nothing that happens after the first hour makes one lick of any type of sense. Okay. No one can make sense of it. Okay. So let's do this. Okay. All right. Okay. So let's start at the beginning. Okay, this is the personal thing. I don't like the song for the intro. Not that I don't like the song itself. It's kind of nostalgic for me. I don't like starting the movie off this way, especially after the way they had the epic start.

With a pop song. Yeah, dude. Epic's part one start, okay? It's amazing. One of the best intros of any horror movie ever. Part two.

It's cool and creepy and starts in a dream. It's very uncomfortable. Part three has that spooky organ stuff, this and that, and then it has it come up and then boom, cut, and then it goes to Kristen in her room. But they at least have that. This starts off with a freaking... pop song yeah again it's the mtv nightmare i know but that's my issue and i love mtv and i'll talk about that as well but when one of my trivia questions is about that song so don't dive too deep dave

Oh, yeah. Don't worry about it. Okay. So anyway, I know the reason for the song. I have nostalgia for the song, believe it or not. That song is literally on my playlist. Right. No, I can dig it. I can dig it. I think it's on my Halloween playlist. It's one of the, you know, every year. So here's some of the good stuff. Steve Johnson and Screaming Mad George. I see that on the screen. Okay. I know I'm in for some good stuff.

I can dig it. Here's one. I'm going to ask Jay and Spawn, can you name the characters in this movie? Yeah, like you mean by name? Yes, by name. Let's see how I remember. Character names or actors' names? No, character names. Because I know everybody can name everybody from part three. That's easy. I mean, there's Kristen, right? There's Kincaid and Joey.

Yes, yes. That's right. And then Alice, the new gal. There's Freddy. Correct. Yep. And the rest are their friends. They're gang, whoever these other people are. Nick, because he's the martial arts guy. Nope, that's wrong. It's not Nick? What's his name? No, it's close. It's Rick. Is it? Oh, okay. I guess I wrote Nick in my name. I wasn't looking. Even with notes, you can't remember these people. Okay, continue. Anybody else?

How many do you need? That was a good number. Everybody knows the carryovers. I'm talking about the friends group. Hold on. Hold on. Jay, can I ask you a question? Yeah, go for it. What's the name of the girl who got slammed into the TV in Nightmare on Elm Street 3? I don't know. TV head. Jennifer. Jennifer's the correct answer. What's the name of the kid who got killed via Puppet Mastery in the part three? Oh, that's easy.

I love that kill. I don't know. I don't remember character names typically. Yeah, Philip. I can remember all their names. I don't see the issue here then. I just thought I would try and see if anybody remembers these characters because all the Friday the 13th movies, I can tell you all the people. Well, you're an anomaly when it comes to Friday the 13th though, Dave. I mean that's fair. I mean come on.

And probably for Halloween too. But anyway, I'm sorry. That's a small, small nitpicky thing. I understand what you're saying, but my point was that's true for any slasher film. Okay. Well, that's fair. All right.

I don't like the fact that let's put Hellraiser chains in this movie for no reason. You already have a freaking boiler room. You already have your own freaking franchise. Come on. Don't do that. I saw them when I was a kid. I'm like, what is this? Pinhead's going to pop up now? It's just lame. I mean, have they not been in the other movies? I mean, I feel like that's the boiler room thing. I feel like there was a change in other movies. Maybe I'm wrong, but...

There might have been a random chain dangling here or there, but it wasn't set up to look like it. Dave, would you rather have the asbestos pipes from the first film where all of the actors get cancer because the pipes are full of asbestos? Dave? I just want originality. Yeah, I know. Okay, so here's a question. Why does the dog have blood in its jaws? Let's think about logic here. Let's think about nightmare rule logic on top of it. Tell me how that happened. He bit Kristen, and in those –

What happens in the dream world can be pulled out because Nancy did that in the first film. So you're saying that the dog who was not asleep got pulled into that dream. And bit somebody by by Kristen, because that's her dream power. I understand about the dream power, but she has to do it to somebody who's asleep.

She can't just pull any – otherwise, every time she had a dream, she could pull in the President of the United States if she wanted to or the cops. Why did she want to pull in the cops? What are they going to do? Well, to someone in danger. In the dream world, they're all going to get murdered. I'm just saying.

I mean if you were – if you could pull somebody in your dreams, whether they were awake or sleeping. I'm not going to deny that. I'm not going to deny that that is a gray area, Dave, but I feel like that's not really been super established. the extents of her powers but i don't think she can pull they do they do answer this they've already said they do answer this with a one-liner where kincaid says yeah my dog's tired of getting pulled into your fucking dreams too man

I know, but it doesn't make sense. At least they approach it. In a movie franchise with a pediophilic... magician with a knife glove, it's not so unrealistic to assume that someone can pull in awake people into dreams. That's a dream world!

I get what you're saying. Spawn didn't see part three. That's true. He doesn't understand the powers. Also, Spawn, I would bring up that Freddy Krueger in this iteration is not pedophilic. That's true. And we were talking about that, and I told him that in the – But he hasn't seen all the movies. I know, I know. Don't bring back the tongue thing at one point. I appreciate it. Sorry.

Well, that's just to call the gross out. I mean, come on. Yeah, that's how I heard the story. I will always think of Fred as a pedo, but anyway. Yeah, that's how I heard the story. Yeah, with the tongue thing. I know technically he's a child killer. Listen, I'm assuming that the people who burned him also assumed he was a pedophile. Yes, I bet you're right. Either way, I want my villains.

I want my villains to be villains. I like to say he's a pedophile. That's how he should be. He's the villain. I don't want Johnny Depp's character to be a pedophile in part one or Nancy's father or any other adult. But if you're a villain. Yeah, by all means, be a pedophile in a fictional story. Please. Be a racist. Be a pedophile. I never thought there would be a situation where I could hear, by all means, be a pedophile.

You're right. Oh, my God. I better move on. OK, so I know. So the dog thing, I presented it. You know, it is what it is. It just doesn't make sense. The dog to be asleep. But I will. I mean, I'm willing to I'm willing to say that's a gray area for sure. Okay, that's fair enough. Then we get introduced to the freaking people, the friends. We go down. We have Tori from Saved by the Bell. You're talking about Debbie? Whatever her name is.

She's 100% freaking a knockoff of Tori from Saved by the Bell. This whole movie is a knockoff. Even though Saved by the Bell wouldn't come along for like another six years. Stop it now. I'm still going to call her. She's a lovely woman, and if you guys ever go to a Horg convention and she's there, you should stop and talk to her. She's really awesome. Who is? what size the girl you're calling tori oh yeah right even though even though she was uh tori was six years away from being made but

Yeah, I'll always call her Tori, and I'll always say she's a ripoff even though she's game first. I'm just being stupid. Anyway. Hey, Dave Z, I have one of those too, by the way, for this movie because obviously this preceded. But the whole fact that Alice – I know where you're going. I think I know where you're going, Jay. That Alice has Walter Mitty's –

condition of daydreaming in a big way and getting super distracted. But this precedes Walter Mitty. But anyways, go ahead, Daisy. Sorry. Well, to me, she just looks like Carrie with a little bit of makeup. The daydreaming aspect. falls into the Dream Master aspect. Don't even start. It's a different part of dreaming. Let me read into that. Let me lead up to that whole daydream nonsense. Anyway, I will. Tori from Saved by the Bell.

Carrie with some makeup. I do like character stuff on the intro. I like that in 80s slashers. So I'm going to give a props. I like when they have the quick intro of each character and their little, you know. idiosynchronicities and personality traits. I do think it's a little... What's going to be used against them to murder them? Yeah, that's the thing. It's a little contrived because we're trying to be like part three.

So I find it to be a contrivance, but at the same time, it has a charm to it because of nostalgia for me. And also, Dave, I'll just mention that that's just the format of the Nightmare franchise now since part three. Right. No, I feel you, and I just wish that he didn't have to evolve or devolve, as I'm going to say. Imagine if 4, 5, and 6, it would have been the same kind of movie and the same kind of Freddy as Part 3. Just enough. Don't you think that would have been awesome?

I explained to you the evolution of Freddy. I know, but does there have to be an evolution? Can everything, if any, broke don't fix it? Unfortunately, listen, Dave, listen, I am the flag bearer for if it's not broke. You know, don't fix it. Yeah, franchise. Situation. And I don't think that this is breaking it. I do. I mean, I haven't watched them in a while, but I do think the later films are breaking it. I don't think this one is.

I mean it's subjective to the person, of course, but I just don't think this one is. Okay, now I'm going to get a little into this here. Okay, give a bug a break. I like it. You know where they got it from? My brother had a – what do you call it? In the first grade, my brother was in a play called Going Buggy, and it was about these bugs protesting. And they went to Washington, and they had picket signs, and they were holding them up, and they were saying, give a bug a break.

And that was like four years before this. I was like, wow. That is the deepest dive I've ever seen into a horror film. There are some pop culture references that don't exactly land now, like the AT&T, why don't you reach out and touch someone? I had to explain that. But again, AT&T. As I explained earlier in this podcast, Jay, this is not a movie that's meant to be timeless. I know. This is very much a product of its time.

And I would not and I would not detract anything from it for that, of course, because, I mean, we have things now that are coming out where they're referencing pop culture. I'm just saying it's interesting, like even like the teacher. The teacher in this film at one point is like, go for it. And that's such an 80s expression. They're taking the physics test.

Yes. Good, good, Ron. Wow, Ron. You're mine. Steel trap, brother. Wow. Go for it. That is great. Look at Ron knowing exactly what I was referring to. That's impressive, Ron. Yeah, he knows the movie. God bless him. So here's this one. Okay, what you said was perfect about reach out and touch someone. Freddie would have never said that in one, two, or three. In three, he did have things, but it wouldn't have been a commissary. Reach out and touch someone.

Do you know what he would have said in three? Do you know what he would have said in three, you guys? He would have said... How's this for a wet dream? That was his best line in this. I like that line. That was the best one. That was a good kill. It was nice and simple like three. Thank you, Jay. You know exactly what I'm saying. That was like a part three. in line. Yep. How's it for a wet dream? Quick, over. So what you're saying, can I interject here for just a second?

Well, Daisy and I are on a date right now, so you're interrupting. So far. And it's going well, Ron. Come on. Can I be the waiter on the date? We're off to a good start here. Fine. What you're saying, what I'm understanding here is one-liners are okay, but one-liners that reference pop culture, not okay. Those are the worst kinds, yes, because that's just – yeah, I mean that's just – everybody does that. That's a cartoon. That's just – but –

It isn't that one-liners are okay. It's just that the delivery and the verbiage are different in every time. There's a certain way to do it. I don't know. I think Robert Englund is masterful in this entire series. He's the one highlight in every single movie. Yeah, that's the comedy stuff that I don't like. But anyway, okay.

Reach out and touch someone. I think it goes over the line. And I agree about Wet Dream being good. So that's cool, I guess. So I like the character stuff. That's fair. That's fair. Why would this guy say?

to his girlfriend and they've had a long relationship i mean i don't know how but they have i mean if you apply logic to the first one i assume you're talking about kristen and rick and this movie takes place a year after part three so i don't know how long it's been They seem to be really into each other, yes.

Well, they show the videos from the back, and she goes, you made her so happy back then. So they kind of have the appearance of being around. Yes, when she was alive. Yes. Yeah, and all her friends know each other a long time. And I always thought that was silly. Regardless, they're a couple. And why would he now of all time choose to say to her about Kincaid and Joey like he just met them off the street like now for the first time? And he's like, those guys are kind of spooky.

He wouldn't be saying that this far into the relationship. Well, we don't know that. It's just contrived interjection to me. Dave, that's a weird critique, I think. Well, that's fair enough. It's just an interaction between the new group and the old group is what it is. I know what it is. I know what they're representing with it. I just think that they're –

I just didn't think somebody would say that. If you've been around for someone a while, you don't make that type of – they would have said it a long time ago. Dave, I don't think it's an unfair critique. This is the same kind of critique I would make. That's fair. If it didn't work for you, it didn't work for you. Right. Okay. Like, I've been friends with, like, certain people, like my friends, for, like, years and years, and then I would say something new, like, and then it would be funny.

Maybe it was. But is it kind of like, I think what Dave Z might be saying, if I'm understanding, is it's kind of like when people give exposition in movies of things that they've already known for a long time. Correct. Okay, gotcha, gotcha. Well said, Jay. That's – yeah. Okay. That's what I meant. Okay, so here we go. So we're skipping by that. Give a bug a break. Okay, here's the worst thing of all.

Well, that's not the worst thing about the worst thing. No, it's not. It's the first thing that sticks out to me that angered me in the movie is the foreshadowing, which we've talked about before, which can be done nice.

I agree with it. A little tiny thing happened. But having the claw marks on those lockers strictly for the audience is going too far, man. No, no, no, no. Everything's for the audience. No, no, no. Wait, wait, wait. Dave Z. I was going to say that Locker Slash with the red light shining through, for whatever reason,

That is an iconic horror image in my mind. Absolutely is. And when I saw that again in this movie, I'm like, oh, I love that. I remember this image. It stuck in my mind all these years. No, it absolutely is. I love it too. And listen, absolutely, it's a horror icon, but I'm going to surprise you guys, and I'm going to agree with Dave Z on this one. Thank you. Thank you, sir. And I love the shot, too. That should not have been in the real world.

Right. Thank you. It goes against all the rules. And if for no reason, he's dead, kids. He's dead. But how do we know it's in the real world? Because they show it in the locker. In the closet. Because Rick and Alice walk by, and at this point in the movie, they haven't been pulled into the dream world yet. I'm just saying, like, you don't know for sure. They're all awake!

It should have been used in a dream, Jay. How about that? Don't you think that would have made more sense? They have a dream later when the kid is in the toilet. It was obviously for a commercial. Yeah.

It's for the trade. It is contrived. It is contrived. Thank you. Listen, it's super cool, but I'm with AC on this one. It is contrived. If it does occur in the... real world if it does in fact then yeah that's breaking the rules but I'm just saying in these movies it weaves in and out of dream there always seems to be one scene that happens in the real world that shouldn't happen in the real world huh

In these movies. And then last movie, it was the skeleton, right? And the first movie, it was his powers when he killed the mom or whatever. Second movie, we're not counting. So this movie, maybe if that's it, there always seems to be like one. That's almost a nightmare tradition. There's one thing that shouldn't make sense. Well, the whole 30 last half hour of this shouldn't happen, but we'll get to that in a minute.

We can go minute by minute. You're going to have to generalize. I'm going to try to fly through. Believe me. That's what I'm saying. When you get sick of hearing me, I'll stop. But I mean I took all these notes. I agree with you on that one. Okay. So where was I? Okay. Okay, he calls his daughter the daydreamer, foreshadowing about something else. People, daydreaming is what you call an expression. You are not asleep.

It is to be taken literally. Because someone's daydreaming, they are not actually dreaming in dreamland and can have dreams. So stop. And nothing happens in the daydreams. She's just a daydreamer. We see this specifically in the movie several times. What about when Rick dies? Or what's his name? It's not a daydream. She falls asleep in the classroom. Oh, no, no, no. Hello, baby. She's standing up, my friend. She's standing up. Why is she falling asleep?

There. How can she fall asleep? That is a daydream. Yes. And what happens? Is she already killing anybody? So you're saying a daydream is a dream then. So if I daydream – She had a – she wasn't dreaming. She just had a flashback to that movie that she watched earlier in the film. It's a callback to that. But he came out of the grave and walked over to her and said this is all a joke. But he didn't in real life. She was having a daydream.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. A daydream doesn't work that way. Have you had daydreams? In the mythology of a Nightmare on Elm Street franchise, it works that way. Her daydreams are very vivid, and I think that has to do with her being a game master. But yes, to Dave Z's point, dreams while you're sleeping and daydreams are two different things, two different phenomena. But we have established what a daydream is for Alice in this movie.

And it may be more realistic for her because, like Jay said, she is the dream master. Well, I have a different opinion. The dream master is a nice evolution from Dream Warriors as well. Oh, God. All right. Then I'll get to that too. Dream Warriors, not effective. Dream Inconveniences. Just saying. You're right about that. Dreaming inconveniences, right. Minor inconveniences. Awesome. Listen, I've been to both Buffalo and Utah. I know how to get to both places. You better watch it.

I'll move along, though. Okay, speaking of dreams, who the hell has a dreamland? That's his whole thing. And Michael James. I understand. Okay, that's fair. Those guys can have them. Kincaid wakes up in a freaking trunk, opens it up and looks around the truck yard and says, this ain't my dreamland. So in other words, every time Kincaid has a dream, he's in the same spot. After you. That's stupid, dude. Bid. You can't deny that. Dave, come on. Really? It's stupid.

Yes, it's stupid. Fred sold him into the area he wasn't normally in. This isn't my dreamland. Dreams – I've had plenty of dreams where I've only been there once. I can tell you because I still remember how bad it was. It's a one-off line where he says, ah, I don't want to be here. This isn't where I dream. It's stupid. This is written by children. Well, I mean, it was written by not writers because there was a fucking writer strike going on, man. Yeah, this is children for sure.

So anyway, okay, this ain't my dreamland. Worst resurrection ever. There's no question. I've seen tons of horror movies, tons of resurrections. Nothing is worse because it shouldn't happen. I'm going to say something that's really going to make you angry, Dave. Are you ready for this? Probably not. I might agree with you. I might agree. Go ahead. No, you're not going to agree with this. I know what you're going to say.

I don't think you do. This resurrection is better than Jason's resurrection in part four. I'm sorry, it just is. I love part four, and I'm not going to say that's not a better movie, but... He just literally gets up off of the off the freaking morgue table. At least we have explanation as to why Freddy got up out of this grave. Why? Because a dog peed? Because Kristen's paranoia gave him the power to come back, and the dog unconsecrated the grave. Right, so that's more powerful than religion?

Jason literally just set up off of a morgue table with no explanation. He was put – oh, dude, listen. I'm not a fan of that Jason thing. It's kind of silly. I'm the same. This resurrection is better than that one. And I love part four. A dog pees. A dog urinates fire for no reason at all. He doesn't urinate. There's no urine. There's no urine.

Fire comes out of his penis. What do you want to call it? Well, it comes out of that general area. His dog is snossages. Let's say snossages. I wish there was a snossages reference in this movie. I know. Either way, in part three, he was consecrated. He had holy water. A nun came out of heaven to freaking say, this is how you put somebody down permanently. And they do it. It's insulting.

We should be grateful that they went through all of the – jumped through all the hoops to make sure that we know why Freddy got resurrected in this film compared to the third film where he's just there. After he was murdered in both the first two films. I have a quick clarification question. At first, Dave Z, I thought you were critiquing the effects of Freddy's resurrection. But you're critiquing the way.

that it happened which is the dog situation and i of course i agree with that but i thought we already hit that at the beginning and that's not that's not uncommon like i i expected that Yeah, there's a reason for it. It's terrible. So anyway, I'll just go buy it. Even logic in the dream world, Dave. In movies. Logic means something to me. I don't care what movie it is.

It just doesn't. But there's no logic in the dream world is what I'm saying. In dream world, Freddy is a god, basically. Well, in the dream world, that's fine. He can do what he wants, but keep the dream world in the dream world. Well, he had a dog piss fire on his grave down consecrated in the dream world. Yeah, but a dog shouldn't be there in the first place. It's not a dog. It's a dream dog. See, that's where we got a problem.

Were you asleep and having a Freddy Nightmare? I didn't retort. I waited until now. It doesn't make sense to me. I can't believe you of all people, Ron, who always looks at movies with a critical eye about logic and this and that, is willing to overlook. all these flaws i'm not willing to overlook the dog pissing right i'm not giving this movie a 10 again i'm not saying it's a great thing it's the thing that i wanted to put up with to get the rest of the movie

Okay, fair enough. Okay, let me go on. I'm not going to try to defend that. Renny Harland didn't even try to defend that. That's true. That's stupid. Don't make movies like that. So now in the last movie, you throw bones in a bag. And you throw him in the freaking ground. You throw the stuff on him. You cover it up. Conveniently in this movie, all the bones are placed in a perfect order. The head connects to the neck bone. Everything is lined up. It's completely freaking ridiculous.

And I'll give props for the Hellraiser type resurrection. The effects are cool. The fact that he is spread out as if he was a regular human being that was buried in a casket laying from head to toe is insulting. Well, Dave, that's because Kristen's paranoia, he was ready to resurrect. He was establishing himself in the grave. Yeah. Yeah, okay. All right, so that's fair. I don't like that. They dub it.

Have you noticed there was a dub line when he says, you shouldn't have buried me. I'm not dead. His mouth isn't even moving. It's just being dead. Oh, no, there are some other dub lines in this, and that's going to be one of the trivia questions. But I did not notice that one. I did not notice that one. You never noticed that his mouth wasn't moving at all and he's saying two sentences? Oh, no. No, I did notice his mouth didn't move. I just assumed it was like he was mentally –

That may be so. I just find it an odd choice. That's all. Okay. That's fair. Neither here nor there. Okay. Now, this is something – There's one part of this movie that I really hate, and I hope that you get to that. I'm sure I will. So – This is the shot that I hate more than anything, and I think this is the first shot of Amateur Hour. When they had that zoom up, which would have been an amazing scene, when he's like, Freddy!

He's back! And they go up and up and up. They should have just cut the scene there, right? And then you don't see him again or they do something later. Or if you're not going to cut there... you should zoom back down and then go and then show them together next to each other. Instead, you zoom up. And it's a cut, an edit. You never see that in movies, ever. I'm not going to defend that. It's a real bad cut. I'm not going to defend that. Thank you. Okay. It's a terrible cut.

Cool. Fair enough. Good. Thanks. Thanks for being fair. All right. Cut to the right. No, listen. I listened to our review of this movie 10 years ago or 12 years ago when I first did it, and I spent literally 10 minutes just complaining about that cut. Okay, awesome. I'm not going to defend that at all. Okay, now.

It's nice to see MTV. That's my note. It's cool with the kids watching it. It's very much like part one with – Yeah, let me ask you this though. Real quick. I know you're in your zone, but let me – real quick. This is a spawn. I'm sorry that you're excluded from this because you just didn't experience MTV when you should have. Yeah, I know. But Jay and Dave, what was playing on MTV? Do you guys remember that?

100%. I remember that. Yeah, I remember that. That's awesome. Oh, dude. Oh, I remember all the commercials he was in. But it was like modern. I mean at the time it was – at the time it was – it's what was on MTV, right? Yeah, dude.

I just wanted to have a nostalgia moment with you guys. Yeah, it was really cool. Yeah, I appreciate seeing that so much. And then that one commercial, I remember the commercial when it's him stomping through the city like Godzilla or something and it ends up being a big M when they reveal it. Yeah. That.

Yeah. Yes. Awesome. Awesome. It definitely gave me a nostalgia boner for sure. Yeah, dude. Love it. So I'll give that props. The wet dream line is okay I wrote, which it is. That's fine. But here's my problem. But that kill was good. That kill was good, right? The kill itself is excellent. I love what happens. However, the aftermath, imagine you finding somebody you live with or your child, if you're the mother, in there. Something like that, if it happened.

It would make national – no, it would make worldwide news because how did he get in there? We don't have any – it didn't make worldwide news. Right. When the cops came over and they saw them like that, that would have been – They would be bugging out. They're like, this is supernatural. Let me present this to you, Dave. So in Springwood, Ohio, where this movie takes place. Right. There has been an amazing. amount of teen suicide slash murders that happen in weird locations in weird ways.

So I would think that the Springwood police would be excellent at covering this shit up because they all know what's happening. That's a good point. We are in a situation where we know that all of these adults know that Freddy Krueger is killing these kids despite what they want to say. That's good. No, thank you. So obviously the Springwood police would cover this up.

Yeah, I like that. It's a really good kill. Yes, it is. It's great. And just to show where the slasher genre has evolved to in the late 80s and in this MTV universe that we're living in. We have to make sure we get that one with that one tit shot in the movie. Right. And Joey is a horn dog. We know this from the last. Yep. And that's where we got it. And I thought that was a really cool kill. I agree.

It's all good. Having a waterbed, there's many days that I woke up and I felt like I was actually inside the waterbed because I was covered in water. Waterbed sucks. Oh, that does suck. I hate waterbeds. They suck for certain things too. I know where you're going. One tiny gripe about the waterbed though, the aftermath shot of it.

See, there was a lot of blood included in the kill itself, and I thought that it would have been cool to see blood in the aftermath. Okay, yeah. Red water? They wanted blue. They wanted a difference of colors. Yes, probably. Yeah, good point. But Pieces has my favorite waterbed kill. But what happens in the dream world...

Compared to what happens in the real world are two different things. Maybe he just had a heart attack in the real world. But in the dream world, he was hacked by Freddy. But often their injuries when they're killed in the dream world are still manifest and visible. In some way, I agree.

Yes, I guess. It was still a good visual. It was still a cool visual. Yeah, it did. Absolutely. Love it. So let me continue on with children writing and contrivances. All right. Suddenly, Kristen Parker is a cigarette smoker. Well, I mean, if you've been through what she's been through, you would smoke cigarettes too, Dave. Okay, but I will tell you this. I have never, in any movie franchise series I've ever seen...

Somebody who didn't used to be a smoker become a smoker. This would be the only time it's ever been done. So I got to point that out. Yeah, but that's – I don't think that that's – I don't think that's – I think it's lazy. It's lazy to have – it's an ends to a mean. It's a means to an end. I get where you're getting it because they show Alice trying to smoke after Kristen dies. Yes, and that's horrible. Yes, so anyway. I don't think that's a good one. I'll tell you why.

We're going to agree to disagree on that, Dave. From a moral perspective, though, it is funny because this franchise is always showing teenagers. popping pills and taking drugs. So now they're adding cigarettes to the mix. So yeah, anyways. Well, there was lots of cigarettes in part three. Lots of cigarettes in part three. Jennifer smoked. Karen smoked. I can't remember if Kristen smoked or not. She definitely drank Diet Coke with coffee grounds, which is basically smoking. Right.

Actually, she downgraded in this film because she was drinking Diet Coke with Coffee Grounds in part three. In this film, she was drinking generic Diet Coke. It just said Diet Cola. And then in the – which is weird because in the movie scene – In the movie scene, Alice definitely had a cup that said Pepsi on it. You would think that she could be drinking Diet Pepsi or something, but anyway, that's neither here nor there. Interesting. Okay, so.

Where was I? Okay, here's one now. Suddenly she goes to school. The other two are dead now. The dream warriors are kaput. So she goes into school. Suddenly she thinks he killed them right away. Well, she knows. Of course she knows, yeah. Even though she's the only one who was afraid, it doesn't make any sense.

They were telling her, cool out, everything's fine. You're the one who's afraid, not us. You're going to wake them up, stop thinking about it. It makes zero sense that they would have the dreams before her. She's the one that should have freaking had the dreams. It's stupid. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's wrong.

That's just wrong, Dave. Tell me why. They didn't even believe Freddie was. Her paranoia brought Freddie back. Yes, but it should have brought it back to her. He attacked. Well, no, when he was strong enough to be resurrected, he attacked the weakest ones first. And that was Kincaid and Joey. Yeah, but he didn't believe. No, listen. And he knew that Kristen was the last of the Elm Street kids, and he needs a new...

Group of kids to kill or he's done. And Kristen's the only one who can pull people into their dreams. So he has to save her for last. And that's why she pulls Alice into her dreams. And then Alice just happens to be the dream master who can also. When she's asleep, bring other people. Yeah. Also because Kristen passes her her powers. That's why Kristen has to be less. God in heaven. I know. I know. Well.

Let me just say – Whether you like it or not, I mean that's just – I don't like that. You don't have to like it, but that's the plot. That's the plot. But does it make sense? Jay, does that make sense to you that they would be the ones that – It makes total sense to me.

Okay, that's fine. That's one person. But Jay, think about this. She's the one that's afraid constantly, and they're telling her, stop. We're not afraid. The thing's cold. You ever think that if she's talking about him, you'll bring him back? They're telling her to stop because he – because –

Freddie gets his power from fear, and if she doesn't stop, she's going to bring him back, which is what she did. And Dave's Eve, maybe this whole – it's kind of the goose that laid the golden egg thing. If you're getting golden eggs – You don't want to kill the goose who's laying them. So if he's getting strength from her fear, he shouldn't take her out first. He could take out the other friends.

And get to her. But he's still regaining strength as she's fearing. And I buy Rhonda. Dave, I will admit that you and I and Jay and Spawn right now... are putting way more thought into this script than anyone else ever did. Okay, yeah, that's fair. But these are the things I pick up on every time I see the movie. Listen, again.

I don't think Rennie Harlan is this genius director who came up with all of this, but I just – for some reason, it just all fell into place, and it all worked. Okay, you know what? That's one I'll give you. That's fair. It's okay. I'll concede on that one. I can do that. Okay, so, all right. The nurse thing was a terrible, terrible move to do in a movie. I knew you were going to go to the nurse thing. Was one person fooled?

Was one person fooled? I don't think it was going to fool anybody, though. But they should have done that. They shouldn't have done the second one when they had the close-up. It was completely unnecessary. They should have had makeup on. That was a framing thing. And then when the reveal comes, we get revealed along with her. It would have worked so much better to me than amateur writing.

It's bad. Well, it probably was written on the fly because the rider strike was going on and probably written on the fly by a non-rider, honestly. But just a better writer just writes the scene differently. We don't know. I'm thinking this was written on the fly because of that's fair. I think so. My children. Yes, I. Yeah, I think under Wes Craven or something like that would have been.

much better scene, but, you know, Winnie Harland did what Winnie Harland does. Okay, so we'll call that even. We got what we got. I didn't feel like it was him playing to the camera, though. I felt like it was just the framing thing. Well, the second was he looked at the Karen one. And if it helped LGBTQ kid, then great. Well, hey, if retroactively it's done that, then I can't say that's a bad thing.

So that's cool. So either way. But I want to draw some blood. That's the real start of things getting real bad. OK. Well, that's a hammy. I want to draw some blood. He wouldn't have said that in the other movies. He just wouldn't have. Because this movie, I can sum a lot of you. He's evolved into, though, is what I'm saying. He's evolved into this. He's more comfortable with his nightmare situation. So he's comfortable giving these one-liners.

Yeah, I know. But look at it this way. And this I've always said this about this movie. This to me is part three turned up to 11. They did not have to do this. They could have kept it at about an eight. It would have been awesome. They took everything about this movie and cranked it to 11. The next very scene after this that we're talking about, we see her mother who for one second in the first movie.

I 100% agree with that. I 100% agree with that actually, Dave. Okay. There you go. Let me ask you this. Let me ask you this before you move on. Let me ask you this real quick. Let's say your task with the task of following an incredibly popular – slasher film in the 80s, and you have a script that the production company doesn't believe in, you have a lead actress the company doesn't believe in, you have a director that the company doesn't believe in. I mean, what are you doing?

You're going to take everything that was successful about the last film and you're going to turn it up to 11. I would write things like how sweet fresh meat. Now is not the time. to be subversive. It's just not. You have to be over the top. I mean, that's how things were in the late 80s. Yeah, but it didn't work. People don't like that. Like I said, if part three would have stayed like a part three. I think the Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic scores would disagree with you there, Dave.

The box office numbers won't... I think the box office numbers really disagree with you. It's the highest grossing slasher of the 80s. Right, because of part three, but if you wanted to look at the results, look at part five, everybody fell off. Dave, I... And I completely agree with your movie's only as good as the last movie. I completely understand that. But also, when I was researching this, because of one situation, I looked at a lot of Reddit posts.

And there were plenty of people, lots of people who said, I went and saw this movie five, six, seven, eight, eight, nine, ten times in the theater because I thought it was so good. So I don't think that's the only reason. No, I understand some people liked it. You know who they were. Most of them were casual. No, no, I get it. They were casual fans who MTV turned them on to. They weren't the regular horror movie.

Absolutely. Yeah. Good things about that. But we all know what happens when things go mainstream. It just it's part of the thing. Well, it's positive for people's pockets. But in the long run, they'll end up crashing and burning because of it.

And I don't disagree with that, Dave. I think we saw that in five and six, right? Right. Yeah, for sure we saw that. But my point is I'm not trying to tell you this is the best movie in the franchise because it's not. I am trying to tell you it is a good movie. I'm not trying to tell you it's better than one. I'm not trying to tell you it's better than three. I am trying to tell you it's a good movie. I agree. Yeah, it is pretty. I would say it's good for like.

Maybe a Halloween type of movie. It isn't a Halloween Halloween movie. But if you had a Halloween party, this would be a fine movie to put on, correct? Yeah. Because it's fun. Yeah, totally. And Dave, what you mentioned about the first part, the very first movie, I think this has at least five or six iconic moments in it. I'll mention the stuff I do like. There are some good moments, all of that stuff. Yes, there's no question. Yeah, the elbows and the insect kill.

That was tremendous. Listen, I have seen – I can't tell you how many people I've seen at horror conventions that cosplayed that cockroach stuff. Oh, I love that. There's been at least a dozen over the years, which – and that's a pretty like – It takes up a lot of space, right? So it's very awkward, but people love to do it. Super cool. And she's got an action figure out of it, too. That's awesome. So now, check it.

Let's talk about the scene, the jump the shark scene, literally, when Freddy turns into a shark fin. I don't think it's literal, but okay. Well, yeah, it is literal because he turns into a shark fin. That's why. What's wrong with that? It's ridiculous. Why is it ridiculous? It's stupid. It's comical. It's not needed. It makes total sense within the frame of the movie. It changes the whole franchise, man. Things like this change the tone. I don't think you're wrong.

I got to weigh in. Dave, I don't think you're wrong. Please do, Jay. I got to weigh in here, and you're going to be shocked. You put down sunglasses? Dave Z, you're going to be shocked. I don't see what's wrong with that. I hate when he did that. I hate the sunglasses, but you're going to be shocked by something. The shark fin thing, because we have such an iconic horror movie as Jaws.

So sharks are in our horror lexicon, just in general, like in our psyche. But he is a dream. You might attack me right now. He is a dream demon, and he can do anything in his stupid non-parameter dream world. So he could do a shark fin. Oh, yeah.

He can do anything he wants to do, as we've seen, but he wouldn't have done that in part one, two, and three. It's simple as that. This changed the tone for the worst. It just simply did. We had a great series. Dave, I don't disagree with you that it changed the tone. But I will say in this movie, the scene before this scene, Alice explains to Kristen how she can control her dreams.

So when Kristen goes into dreaming, which she does not want to do because her mother has drugged her. Drugged her. Yeah. She starts to control her own dream. And if we control, you know, not for me personally, but for like 80, 75 percent of the people out there, if they're going to.

Go to a place that they're comfortable at. They're going to go to a beach on a nice island, and that's what Kristen did. I agree. And then Freddie said, you know what? Fuck your nice dream. I'm still going to invade this dream. I'm going to take you. I'm going to push you down to where you're in my dreamland where I like to do business. And then she dies. So I think it makes complete and total sense within the context of the film.

Whether or not it's a switch that flips into a more comedic Freddy Krueger or not, I'm not going to argue that because it probably is. Within the context of this film, it makes total sense. Well, my other defense of it is, and this is an overall critique of this film, so this is one place where it kind of appeases me. this shark thing is, um, this is, we're, we're talking about a dream. We're talking about a, a monster who wields nightmares here. And so.

It's remarkable to me how boring and repetitive this franchise has already become. by the fourth film, because we're always going back to the Nancy house and the boiler room imagery. I'm like, come on. So when we do get the shark fin situation, I'm like. Well, at least it's not the boiler room with the chains and the fire and all that. So, I mean, you know.

I think the other imagery becomes pretty ho-hum, and since we have zero parameters, you know, I think it's kind of exciting that we get something different. Brother, I love that. Right. I love changing. Sorry. Well, and Jay, to your point, we discussed this in the last episode with me having a very unique perspective. When the franchises get away from what works is when they start going downhill.

For sure. But let me say that I agree with you guys on this. This is a personal opinion thing. This isn't – I'm not saying that because – You know, he turned into a shark fin and put sunglasses on. It makes it a bad movie. I'm telling you that I personally don't appreciate that stuff, especially after.

The first three. There's other things that I'll say. I'll say that makes it an amateur or a bad movie or bad writing. I'm not saying this is necessarily bad. It does look good. And, Jay, I agree with the fact that I like to see different things. But we saw different sets in the last. When Freddie was the snake at one point, he'd come out. That was great. We could see that. And I even like the idea of her going to a beach, right, and thinking of someplace good, and then bad things happen.

That is fine. Just not that. Just let it be something I would have been okay with if he would have came out of the sand like a worm in the last movie and freaking gobbled her, to be honest. I don't see the difference, but I mean that's – Well, speaking of the – the shower, the sunglasses. Yeah, it's a nod to Jaws. It's a performance. Wait, wait, wait. Okay, two quick things about this beach scene.

Spawn and I laughed out loud because once he does go through the sand and then he bursts up through that sand castle, it's like, ta-da! You know, it's just so hilarious the way that's framed. Anyway. But here's the funniest thing about it. I think it's hilarious when he pushes her down the quicksand with his foot and is like, no, you're going to my funeral, bitch. Well, let's talk about that very soon. He should have killed her then.

He wants to play with her a little bit. He can't cover them because he has to get another person in the dream. We have to go back to the board. So he's going to convey. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Jay. She's the last Elm Street kid, so he has to get another person so he can continue killing. But real quick, one quick, just about this quicksand situation. The funniest thing in this film, and next time you guys watch this,

Please pay attention for this. Please. And this quicksand. And Spawn picked up on this, too, and we were both laughing at it without even acknowledging it to each other. Yeah. When she is struggling in the quicksand. She sounds like she's making sex noises. And there are a couple different places in this film. I think that's ADR, by the way. Okay, well, fair enough. But they put it in there, Ron. But you're right. You're absolutely right.

There's a couple of places in there where we've got sex noises and they're supposed to be struggling and dying. It's like, come on. Anyways. They must have been filming a porno next door, and freaking old Kenny Rowland walked over there and said, hey, can I just put this up here in good audio for a few seconds? I'm trying to save a few bucks. Yeah, that's probably right. Listen.

I have a trivia question later about how this film ran out of budget, so you might not be wrong. Word, there you go. Did you see that freaking cloudy-ass water when she picked it up? There's no way.

She's not going to notice that in her water. I thought it was milk. We don't know it was water. Yeah, we don't know it was water. It could have been lemonade. Yeah. They show it. They show that it's a thing of water, and it's cloudy. She never says it was water. I thought it was lemonade. No one says it was water. I actually thought it was water. Yeah, lemonade. Well, whatever it is, they show the poison floating around in it. It was cloudy.

Not good. Not good filmmaking. The movie has to happen, Dave. Yeah, but be better at what you're doing and not show it that way. Show it a second prior and then it just dissolves. I don't necessarily disagree with you on that one, Dave, but I feel like it could have been lemonade. It was fine. Yeah, no, I'm just saying I can't not notice these things. It's just what I know. Listen, Dave, you're right now. You are you are like my the enemy right now when I'm watching something else.

I completely understand what you're saying, but I was willing and able to write that off as Lemonade. Of the Horror Avengers, you two are the sticklers of this podcast. That's why we were the last two actors. Dave. That's why we're the last two actors. Because Jay was taking too much heat and he needed to take it off of him. He added me and me at the end.

But we need sticklers because I think if we do get too gushy, then we're very permissive of – But you also – You guys catch stuff, and I appreciate that about you both. But you also have to take the franchise into consideration, the rules of the franchise. franchise like I am I'm going by different rules for Nightmare on Elm Street than I would by Friday the 13th than I would by Saw for sure so you know in Saw you have to take every word that's said into consideration

And the way they put their franchise up, that's what you have to do. My ministry is not the same, not the same situation. That's right. Well, I apply logic in what it should be applied in when I'm watching things. If it's during the dream, that's different. If it's in the real world, well, now I've got a problem. So I'm still playing. And I do it in Saw every time, and I always – we've been through that. But let me say this. I might be ranting today.

I might be ranting today, but I do it all. I glow. I blow. I freaking rave and I rant. I do all different things to different movies. What you do on your own time is none of our business. Many times I said people are blowing movies, and I've done it myself. It is what it is. It's just the expression. Here's the scene, though. I've hated, hated this scene with a freaking burning passion for years. I think it's worth writing.

Oh, yeah, because it's so egregious in every way. I mean that's terrible, but there's so many things wrong with this. All right. Okay, so here we go. Let's talk about the passing of the torch, if you will. So anyway – okay. Call a friend, reach out, and touch someone. Is she supposedly burning? Okay? She's supposedly burning. Kristen gets thrown in the freaking thing. You can see her burn marks on her face. She's going straight to hell, hot, fiery, watery hell. It's bad. So this is what we're –

Well, this is a different type of how you see what she's going through in there. Oh, my gosh. Yes, it's painful. Yes. Boy, it's awful. So during this, she takes it upon herself that. She is going to zap Freddy. He's facing the other way. Out of nowhere, she's going to zap Freddy with some type of, as if she had a proton pack from Ghostbusters with her.

It's literally what it looks like. It's a white one. So she just kind of zaps him. This is the passing of the Dream Warrior power, correct? Yeah. And then Freddy. Freddy's in the way. But now. Then she says the worst lines ever in film history. You'll need my power. It is the most childish. freaking thing ever uttered in a rated R horror movie. It's like watching an episode of Rainbow Brite or Care Bears or She-Ra. That is literally...

Maybe that's who they got. Maybe they weren't on strike, the cartoon writers. There are a lot of lines in film history. I find it hard to believe that's the worst one of all of them. It makes me the angst. That's a very hyperbolic statement. It makes me the angriest. So by default, I would not say it's a fantastically delivered line or a great. No, not even how it's delivered. The idea behind it. It gets the cross.

It gets the point across. I'm giving you my powers. Yeah, so she can just give somebody her powers. What is this? What are we watching now? You know what? Nancy didn't do that because Nancy's a bitch. This isn't She-Ra, dude. This is Nightmare on Elm Street. You're passing powers around? Yeah, she's passing powers. The Dream Master. Climb off it, Marsha. What's wrong with that? I think that's a great evolution of the series. I think that is a great...

How does it not make sense? Because if you could just give things away, why wouldn't they're doing it in the last movie? It's childish. It's stupid. Here, we're going to kill this one off, but I'm just going to give you my powers. Between the last episode...

This entire episode, between the last film and this film, we have realized that the Dream Warriors are not very effective against Freddy, so they don't really know what they're doing. So in order to pass her... She's upset because she didn't mean to pull Alice into her...

So the least she can do is pass her powers on to Alice, which she does. I don't have a problem with that. She just has this power. Who the hell is she? What do you mean she just has this power? We want Jesus' mother in Elm Street 3 establishing the fact that they have these dream powers, and that's hers.

Yeah, but it doesn't mean she can pass it. They would have been passing it to each other the last minute. She pulled Nancy into her dream last minute. Yeah, that is her – hold up. I get that. She has the power to pull people in. That's fine. I can accept that. But you don't –

You don't dictate. You don't just say, you know what, I'm going to give my power to somebody. Well, who are you to say? It doesn't just work that way because you want it to. Who are you to say you can't do that? Do they do that in freaking X-Men? Does, you know, one turn to the other and say, you know what, here, take this for a day.

You can't do it. I don't care who you are. And if you do, it's a cartoon. It's like Rainbow Brite. You can't take the ethnic mythology and establish it in the Nightmare on Elm Street franchise. That's not how it works. It's horrible. That's what I'm saying. This franchise has its own mythology. And in this mythology, apparently you can pass powers and you're about to die. I mean, that happens. I'm with Dave Z. I don't like this, Ron. Come on, Ron.

It's so childish. Let's just call a spade a spade here, Ron. Listen, you guys can take the other side. I don't have a problem with this. Okay. Let's just sum it up this way. Let's just explain how Alice can pull people into her dreams. Although I don't know that Alice needs that power because Alice is the dream master. Oh, stupid. All right.

Why is it stupid? It's a natural evolution of the Dream Warriors. Why is it stupid? I'll get to that. So check it out. Let's go, man. I'm trying, brother. I am. Okay. I really am. I'm even skipping through. I'm pretty poor as in. We got to, you know. I skipped. Okay, you'll need my power. Okay, she zaps it into Freddy, and then Freddy zaps it to Alice, like they're playing a freaking game of tag. Let me throw this power. Why would he throw it to Alice? He goes through Freddy.

I don't know why it goes through Freddie. No, he throws it to her. You should watch it again. He makes a motion where it comes out and he's, you know? Yeah, no, no. No, it totally makes sense because he wants more people. The only way he can get more people is for Alice to bring him more people.

That's the only way he can kill more people is if Alice brings in more people because he's out of Elm Street, kids. Kristen's the last one. I mean, yeah, that is true, but it still shouldn't have happened. But either way, I guess. And later on in the movie, when we have the famous meatball scene, which I think is one of the iconic scenes in the movie, by the way, when he says, bring me more people. And that's when we get the cockroach scene.

That's true. I know I like that. No, that makes sense why he throws a ballast then. Yeah, but it still doesn't make it any less dumb and childish and stupid. It just doesn't. I understand what you're saying. I understand. At least you're giving me a reason, so I can at least say.

It's just they should have been written. That's why every time I watch this movie, I don't know why it is, but every time I watch this movie, and I'm not – it's not a bias. It really isn't because I'm not even thinking about my relationship with these actual actors. It just makes more sense to me every time I watch it.

Nice. That's a good thing, so I can't be mad about that. Okay, let's talk about things in the real world that you're going to agree, Ron. This shouldn't have happened. Okay. When it says greetings from hell and the thing catches on fire, Freddy should not be in the outside world, correct? Yeah, I mean, no, I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying with that. The photo. That happens a couple of times in the other movies too, but – It only happens – when it does happen, it's done more –

I don't want to say elegantly. They're being more coy about it. There's the word on the tip of my tongue that I want to say. The real point of that scene, Dave, is to start uncovering Alice's mirror. So the mirror is a metaphor for self-confidence, right? Obviously you understand that. It's pretty beaten into your head, right? That's really the real reason for that, but yeah, no, I...

I'm not going to try to defend that. I understand what you're saying. Okay. Okay. Now, Jay, I think you'll love this. Okay. Next scene is the graveyard scene. And isn't it convenient that Kincaid and Kristen – are buried near each other, right next to each other, and Nancy Thompson and her father are also buried next to each other. All in that one little patch. Listen, I have a note written right here. It says...

Freddy has a whole portion of the graveyard dedicated to his victims. Yeah, he sure does. Yeah, it's a little silly. It's a little silly, but it should go back to the other movies. Right, right. I know what it is. It's a little silly. Yeah, I think they wanted to put the little Easter egg in there where you see those other names.

I'm okay with that, I guess. But you're right. I'm more upset than the fact that Kincaid's grave was completely covered and not like all dirt and stuff. He only died a few days ago. Yes, that's true too. Come on, man. I don't know how those grave guards work.

Yeah, I don't know what they're up to. But I'll tell you this. I know what I'm up to. These next two freaking scenes. These next two dreams. I'm ready. These next dreams are two of the worst dreams ever. Ever in the whole franchise. Okay, so. Best dreams ever. Oh, you're killing me. Okay. First of all, she realizes she doesn't smoke then. She's sitting in the bathroom, light up a cigarette. I don't smoke. So you didn't think about that when you walked into the store.

Pulled the money out of your pocket, sat it down, bought the cigarettes, put them in your pocket, went to school, and then pulled it out. Oh, I don't smoke. I understand the semantics behind that is stupid, but it's just for the audience.

It's just to show everyone that when someone dies, Alice becomes part of them. I know what it's showing, and it's stupid anyway. Yeah, I know you know what it shows. But, you know, I get it. Yeah, it's a little silly. Dude, look at it this way. Ron, write it with me. If I'm writing this movie, I have her walk in the store. If you're writing this movie, you're not writing this movie because you're on strike. Grab a freaking – grab a drink.

But I'm still Joe Blow in my basement, and I'm just saying this is what I could do compared to who they got. I would have her walk into the thing, get a Snapple out of the freaking fridge, walk over here. Get a beef jerky. I don't know if an apple existed. Wait. A fruitopia. 88, brother. You know? Fruitopia. New Coke. New Coke. A little hug. Oh, I love little hugs.

Fuck yeah. All little hugs are freaking the bottom. Right? Let's go. They just don't make them, right? Yes, but they taste different to me. Everything tastes different. Yeah, everything tastes different because they can't use all the same chemicals. That's why. Yep, they change it. So anyway – No, yeah, I understand what you're saying, Dave, but – I know, but they could have done it in a much cooler way than – You know what I'm saying?

I don't smoke. Anyway, so that ends. And now we go into the dream. Learning is fun with Freddy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kind of an embarrassing scene for me. Because now my wife's come and she's sat in the room and I'm watching this movie. And I don't know how familiar she is. I know she's seen one and three with me for sure. And she's seen two. I don't know if she's seen this. So she sits down and all of a sudden I get the feel.

As if I'm watching like an episode of Freddy's Nightmares because it's a lot what it looks like, especially this scene because it's in a classroom. Huh? Yeah. That scene, Learning is Fun with Freddy, that begins. So as I'm watching this, that comes on. I'm feeling a little embarrassed because I'm watching something so stupid and goofy with that starting. And there's my wife in the room. So anyway, it reminds me of the TV show.

Freddy and the Apple. Ridiculous. You never would have done that before. No, I thought it was fine. It was fine. Stop. Come on. Apple for a teacher. It's freaking fine. He wanted to do that in the other three. It's Cork. The most embarrassing thing about this scene is the robotic arm coming up, which Renny Harlan also has a long record saying he regrets. Hated that. But...

Sheila making out with him and him turning her into, like, the 1988 version of the girl who smokes weed in the commercials in the 2000s is fine because she has asthma. Yeah, I mean, that kill was disturbing on some level. Spawn found it disturbing. But I think they did the apple. Just so he could slice it with his claw, obviously. Of course. Absolutely. Yes. Obviously. Yes. And during that scene.

by the way i don't know if you guys how much you guys read into everything and this is not one of my trivia questions this uh but during that scene when robert england was kissing toy newkirk right her first on on-screen kiss by the way how crazy is that His dentures, his Freddy dentures fell into her mouth. How gross is that? Yeah. Yeah. Awful. So, yeah, two of the worst dreams.

That thing happens. Actually, I don't mind. I don't – that's okay. I think it's okay. Like what's wrong with that, Dave? Hold on. Besides the Apple thing and the – I mean the death scene where – He sucks her face and she'd be – he kills her because she can't breathe because she has asthma I think makes sense. No, no. I'll tell you this. I don't think that is – I wrote that there, but I don't think –

This is actually so bad. Two of the worst dreams ever. Oh, maybe there was the two before it. Okay, let me try to fly here. That gurney? Good effects on that thing. I don't like that. None of us like the way it looked as far as the CGI. And that's fine. It was the time. But the other effects were good looking. My main thing with that whole scene was like, so you've had like five students or four students.

die within a week can we not get a day off of school here what the fuck seriously come on so did you see the way she he was all tucked in on the gurney or she She was like, yeah, that was weird. Yeah, no, here's what they did. They tucked under the head and under the feet. Usually they just lay the thing and they put it on top and they pull it. But she was like tucked in for some reason. It was weird.

And I didn't even notice it. My wife did. You're not taking points off of that, Dave. Come on. No, I think it's funny. I'm not taking a point. I never noticed. Listen. At least something was funny. A dozen times that I've not noticed that. So good call. Good call. I noticed it, baby. Did you?

Yeah, I did. I noticed that. I'm like, well, that's weird that they wrapped them. But anyways. You never know, Jay. That's awesome. So I've always – and this is ridiculous, but it's always – and my wife laughed when she saw it, so I know it's not just me. Speaking of we're dropping like flies here, right after he does that, the way he runs, who runs like that? Every time I see it, I laugh. It is like Naruto, right? I'll tell you exactly what happens when he runs away. He...

That dude, the actor, was gunning it hard down that hall. He wanted to run really fast. Have you ever done it where you've run a little bit too fast for yourself and you've got to catch yourself? I think that's exactly what he did right there. the actor again, Andreas Jones, I'm going to ask him. Yes. Dude, that's epic. That is an epic run to me in the same vein as the epic, what do you call it, hot tub scene in Madman.

What's his name dancing in freaking Creepshow? Don't let go. Anyway, that's how epic that running is to me. I love this. Dave, I don't know what this says about my life, but I'm having the most fun I've had in months right now. Yay! All right! I'm having a great time. I'm glad I'm not being completely healed out yet, so that's good. No, no, no. I'm good. I love it. Before I forget to ask, where –

Which side, if we were saying a Ron side and a Dave Z side, which side was Joel on in this movie? Joel texted me earlier today. He was very upset about the fact that he can't be here today. And he told me that he gives this movie an 8 out of 10. And the thing is... Joel wanted to be here because he thought I would be undermanned in fighting off you haters. And he told me...

That if Dave Z gave him – gave any grief about him giving the movie an 8 out of 10, that I should remind Dave Z that he liked the sequel Star Wars trilogy. I do like all of Star Wars 1 through 9. I will give you that. And I knew Joel would like the movie. But when he hears my last half hour thing, boom, that should change people's minds. Let's go. Let's go. I'm ready.

I'm just about there. I'm almost there. Just hold on. How can I not talk about this? Okay, who runs like that dropping off like five? Can't get to them unless I bring them. Okay. Why is a kid? can i say dave really quick that my my biggest issue with this movie and why it's not one of the top tier movies in this franchise is because of the ending so

Thank you. Okay, well, it's the whole last half hour. It doesn't make any sense at all. That's the whole last hour. Either that or the whole last – here's one or two things. The whole last half hour is all a dream or – If not, that's the only explanation to make any sense. But we'll get there. Just hold on. Let me just say this. Okay. Who runs like that? Dropping off like flies while they fall. Okay, here it is. Why is a kid, you know, 17 years old, athletic, whatever.

you know, who's not having any issues with dreams yet, doesn't believe in Freddie or any of that stuff. He's not having bags under his eyes. None of this discussed. Why is a healthy kid going into the toilet? In school in the middle of the day and falling asleep. No, you're talking about Rick, right? No, the scene before he goes in the toilet, he literally says that he's been up all night with Alice. Oh, thank you. And he's not slept in a couple days.

Thank you. All right. I accept it. All right. There you go. Thank you. For years I've had a problem with that. Listen, there's a lot of problems with that scene, and I'll get that into that in the trivia. It makes no sense.

But there's a reason for that. But that's not... one of the problems he said he's been up a couple nights in a row with alice because she's afraid to sleep because when she knows she sleeps all right that someone dies and he's her brother and he's very supportive of her so he stayed up with her he says that Fair enough. No, thank you. If it's the dialogue, then I am wrong.

Thank you. OK, so as long as it makes sense, I'm fine. That makes sense. OK. Other ones, they don't. And for the record, I think the special effects crew did a very good job of making these kids look tired and are drunk for the parents because. Alice and Rick's dad, he's a single dad, which most of the Elm Street kids have a single parent, even though they're not technically Elm Street kids, I guess. They do a good job of making these kids look tired.

And they do a job of making their dad look drunk, I think. I agree. No, I agree with this. And, you know, this is a typical Elm Street kid, right? So Kristen's mom is a drunk. And Alice and Rick's dad is a drunk. But as we'll get into in the next film, their dad makes this great resurrection where he becomes actually a good dad.

I like that part of this movie, and it's what the only thing I like about the next movie is the topics that they cover. I'll give you that, and I'll give it in this. I like the fact that they have the drunk dad and stuff, and there's a little bit of... heart to that so absolutely and i love i love alice's storyline honestly yeah it's fine i just don't yeah i mean in a way i do in a way i do

But also, like, I think that the storyline makes sense from her having a mirror that's covered in all in pictures because she doesn't have any self-confidence in the point where. She's gaining all these powers from her friends as they die, unfortunately, to where she has total self-confidence and she's ready to face Freddy. I think that's a good storyline for a slasher film in the 80s.

I'll get to that second part, but I understand what you're saying. I do respect the whole coming of age and the growth of the – I respect that. I'm agreeing. Okay, so going down. Bad, bad line. Yeah, okay. Another awful dream. Too wimpy to show yourself? And then he's fighting nobody. I don't disagree with you, Dave, but there's a reason for that. Terrible. Just cut the scene. I know, budgetary.

I watched Never Sleep Again. You're killing my trivia right now, Dave. Oh, dude, everyone's seen Never Sleep Again. Come on. Also, in the 80s, in the 1980s. The term wimpy was used quite a bit. Quite a bit. Wimpy, wimpy, hefty, hefty. People were called wimps. That's right. Hefty, wimpy. Hefty, hefty, hefty. Wimpy, wimpy, wimpy. Does Spawn of the Dead know what wimpy means?

Yes, that's fine. I'll ask him. Do you know what wimpy means? Yes, he does. Okay. Yeah. You guys hearing a mic? No, but he... He is over resting on the bed now. Okay. Well, I have some questions to respond later. Okay. I'll bring him back when he's – yeah, when he's – but go ahead. Go ahead. Sorry. But in regards to the story, him sitting there kicking the air, too wimpy to show yourself. And guess what? Apparently he was because he never showed himself. I don't like it. I don't like Freddie.

His voice just going over, talking trash to him. Yeah, I don't love that scene either. I don't love that scene either. Okay, I didn't think you would. Okay, see, that's easy. Budgetary issue, but I don't love that scene. But after that scene. After that scene, why the hell did the window shatter in the classroom? Because of the power. It's zero sense. The power. Yeah, the power. The power of somebody else's dream.

No, I understand what you're saying, Dave, and I question that as well. Thank you. My general, like, Freddy sort of... giving him the benefit of the doubt situation would be that everyone in Springwood kind of knows what's up all of the time. So this is something that happens when Freddy's active. It's not a great scene.

I don't love it, but it happens. Yeah, but they should have cut it. It was a bad idea. And again, the students are okay with it because they know this kind of shit happens in Springwood. Listen to this, Dave. Whenever I drive to Salem, Massachusetts, and I go right through Buffalo, when I do that, by the way, I also drive through Springfield, Ohio, which I think is the basis for Springwood, Ohio.

And I always send a picture to Hammer, my former co-host of the podcast. And I say, listen, I'm in Springwood, Ohio. I don't know if everybody's going to get me or not. You never know. That's cool, man. I like that. And you know what? That's the thing about the Fredheads, and that's fine with me. They just have a different taste than me. I'm a total Fredhead. I'm a total Fredhead. That's what I've noticed. And that's what I've noticed about Fredheads, most of them.

They're actually good people. They're not combative as much as the Halloween fans are. And I love the Halloween franchise. It's my number two. So the Fred heads, there's two things about them. They are more forgiving on all that stuff that I'm not forgiving. Well, we realize there's stupid shit that's happened. Yeah. We've seen part five and six as well.

Oh, boy. Yeah, fair. And they all seem to have this genuine love for Alice. Alice seems to me to get just as much attention as Heather, and that's saying something. Heather is the – The talk of the town always, but amongst the hardcores, they're big A-list people. Because it's true movies. I'm hearing it. Let me speak on behalf of the Fred Heads here, Dave.

When we did the Nightmare on the Street franchise on the Resurrections Online 7 podcast, it was really the first really big franchise we did. Like, literally, we did, like... Exorcist and Scream, and we did Final Destination. And Hammer, who was my podcast co-host at the time, finally said, listen, I want to do one of the big franchises. When am I going to do one of the big franchises? I said, well, let's do Diamond and Elm Street then.

And then when I watched all the movies, and I never was a person who wanted to interview anybody in the movies. I just wanted to review the movies. I never wanted to be that podcast that has to happen. Yeah, I never wanted to be that person. And we only did like four or five interviews, but I feel like we did really well on those interviews.

When I got finished with that podcast, I told Hammer, and later on, Little Miss Horner, Jessica Feeney, if you might know it's the Resurrection of Zombie 7 podcast, you know who Jessica Feeney is.

I said, listen, if there's one person I want to talk to in the Nightmare on Elm Street franchise who's not Robert Englund, obviously that's the number one guy you want to talk to. I want to be Lisa Wilcox because I really feel like Alice is the real – heroine of this franchise because and i don't want to foreshadow anything here but i guess i'm going to um she faces freddie twice and she wins and she doesn't die at least in the movie

Anyway, and then I went to a convention that had what I believe to be the largest collection of actors from the Nightmare on Elm Street franchise. all the movies, not just one movie. And my goal, I had three goals, and I talked about this in my interview with Lisa Wilcox.

One of them was to get Lisa Wilcox on the podcast, and I chickened out because she was eating at the time, and I didn't really want to bother her too much. But eventually we did get her on the podcast. And the reason is because, one, I just think, honestly. Personally, and this is a personal opinion, I do think she's a better actor than Heather Langenkamp. And she faces Freddie twice, and she wins twice. Like, Kristen doesn't do that.

Nancy doesn't do that unless you count New Nightmare, which is questionable at best. So I really feel like Alice is the heroine of the franchise. That's my personal opinion. Right on. I can see it. Maybe not a lot of people want to – maybe that's not a popular opinion. I don't know, but I really feel like Alice is the key. to the franchise because she's in the middle of the meat of the franchise. Now, Nancy was the first. She was Wes Craven's girl.

Right. So any West Craven movie has her leg campaign. And that's true. Not even that's true outside of the Nightmare franchise. Like if you go to other West Craven movies, her leg camp has a part. Yes. And then Kristen, you know, she has a. She plays a role for sure. And then we have Alice who doesn't die in parts four and five. And then in part six, I think we see a.

Brief vignette of her and her son leaving Springwood, and you never really, in the filmography world anyway, you never really understand what happens to her. In the comic book world, different situation, but we'll get to that when we get to those movies. So I think that's why Fred heads like myself tend to gravitate towards Alice. Also, maybe. One of the reasons we gravitate towards Alice, too, is because Lisa Wilcox is more available than Heather Lane can.

As far as interviews go, as far as autographs go. Not that I've not met Heather Blankamp. Obviously, I have met Heather Blankamp, and she's fine. I feel like maybe Lisa Wilcox is more willing to talk about her role in the Nightmare on Elm Street franchise than Heather Lankamp is. And maybe that's one reason why Fred heads tend to gravitate towards her.

I mean, what else does she have? Of course she's going to want to talk about it. Everything else. Lisa Wilcox has – let me say this. Lisa Wilcox has a – I'm not dissing her, by the way. No, no. She's been in a lot of movies and a lot of stuff. But she also has a really popular Star Trek character named Yuda to the point where on the Star Trek Next Generation. Monopoly game, she has a spot. So she has some fame in the Trekkie world as well. She's done a lot of stuff.

And she's a sweetheart, right? You said she's cool? Oh, she's awesome. If you ever have an opportunity to meet her, I 100% would say definitely talk to her. I can dig it. Okay, but I think that's why I'm saying I think that's why Fred heads tend to gravitate towards her as opposed to Heather, like you can't. Okay, so I'm team Nancy. Just saying. Oh, yeah. I just wanted to throw it out there.

Well, I mean, Nancy's Wes's girl, right? And she's been in three of the movies, even though one of them she was playing herself, which I don't think she played herself very well, but we'll get to that. Yes, we will. That's certainly a fair pick. Well, yeah, and she's straight up where, I mean, for me, the character of Alice, number one, shouldn't have powers because it's stupid. And number two, shouldn't just naturally avoid some other powers where she can, when people die, she takes on their...

Well, I think that her powers are due to her – I will say – Stupid to me. Let's jump into this right now because we've gone a thousand hours on this. Yeah, I've got to do this thing here. I've got to do this. Run down there. I might turn you around. No, I won't. Okay. I think that Alice's powers come from her learnings from her mother, who is already deceased by the time of this film, but also...

They're undefined. The Dream Master poem that she uses to kill Freddy at the end of this movie is not established well enough. to actually kill Freddy at the end of this movie. I think in order to have a satisfactory ending to this film, you have to establish the entire poem, which she does not do. Throughout the entirety of this one, that's probably that's probably a. Because this film was written on the fly because of the 1988.

uh rider strike and because they were just kind of doing everything on the fly um so it's probably a product of that but that's why i don't love this ending because that poem where if he sees himself, if real evil sees itself, it will self-destruct, has not been completely established. And that's why this film is not as good as part three or part one.

That, I'll say one thing about that. That's not the only reason. That is super weak. The only reason, Dave. Wait a second. That is super weak and dumb to me. However, however, in monster lore. There is an incident. There is, what's that called? court has covered something a precedent there is precedent very good thank you for for monster seeing its own reflection and that's medusa um so yeah absolutely and if it were

If it weren't for my knowledge of Medusa, right, and how her own reflection defeats her, if it weren't for that, then I would have thought, that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard in my life, that his reflection is going to beat him. That's so stupid. And the other interesting thing about that is Dracula has no reflection. Just saying. Don't even. It's stupid as can be. It's just something that a kid made up. It's like She-Ra. Oh, yeah, the mirrors kill him. Okay, let's roll with it.

Okay, so I'm just about to that thing where I can bang, bang, bang. So let me say this. Okay, I've covered it earlier. She's standing up at the funeral, but I guess because she's a quote-unquote daydreamer, she could have a dream right there about her dead brother. I thought it was okay. I thought it was okay, yeah. Okay. Agree to disagree, but I'm not dying on the hill. Who cares? Then we get the worst stand-in I've ever seen in any movie when she's doing the freaking nunchucks in her room.

With the freaking standing with that wig? Oh, my God, dude. I'm not going to defend that, Dave. How could you? See, that's an amateur hour. Should not have been in the movie, man. I'm sorry. It's not great. It's not great. Okay. So now after an hour, we get the theme. So I'm happy. Okay, so I'm like, yeah, all right, at least we got the theme. Oh, we get that before.

No, I think this is the first. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong. I just I popped when I heard it because I was having a rough time with it. And I was like, oh, that takes me back to better movies. OK, so here we go. This is the one hour mark. One of the greatest scores of all time, by the way. Oh, it's fantastic. I agree. That makes Alice stay at home. Then we see Rick waiting outside to meet her, but she's not showing up. Correct?

Okay. 101, Tori's workout begins. 102, Ella sneaks out. She shows up, and he isn't there. So she was supposed to meet, what's his name, Rick? Dan? Dan. Dan. Okay. So she was supposed to meet Dan at this place, and he's not there. Craven, the Craven, which is a nod to West Craven, by the way. Yes. It is cool. Yeah, got to love that.

So then, okay, that's what happens. Now he's not there. So now she walks into a theater. One minute and three. One minute and four, getting sucked into screen. So did she fall asleep in the theater or in the bed at home? She fell asleep at the wheel of the vehicle. Okay, so hold on now. She mentioned that. They both mentioned that.

I'll tell you why that didn't happen. Listen, getting sucked into screen, so does she fall asleep in theater or in bed at home? Okay, 105, the welcome to death row sound. Oh, yeah. They use the welcome to death row. You know, on the chronic, it goes. Welcome to death row. You guys are familiar? Yes, yes. Six years later, by the way. Yeah, it's the same gate closing thing that they sampled in the freaking in the chronic and always get sampled.

But I think it's been sampled in movies for like ever, you know? Sure. But I always notice it because of that album. So I had to mention that. Welcome to Death Row Sound and this awful dream scene with the pizza and the awful one-liners. Oh, no, it's a fucking amazing scene. What are you talking about, Dave? The effects save it. But all the lines, everything that happens, it's over the top. Spirit Halloween sells.

Nightmare on Elm Street pizzas with that fucking theme on it. It's amazing. That is a cool thing to sell. No doubt about it. And from my interview with Lisa Wilcox, just so you know, Pizza Sheet orders from Domino's in L.A. It's half cheese, half Italian sausage, so that she can memorialize that scene in Iron Elm Street 4. She's just telling you that, Ron.

Well, maybe that was the case, but whatever. I got a fucking horror boner because of it. I mean, Jay, come on. Those are awful lines. They're fine. You little meatball. No, they're fine. They sold a million fucking like fake pizzas from Halloween, Spare Halloween for the next 30 fucking years. Okay, like I said, I'm not saying that this is bad. This year.

Dave, is there a Spirit Halloween in Buffalo? Yeah, they're all over the place. Yeah, go over there this year. You can buy a goddamn Nightmare on Elm Street 4 pizza that has fucking spirits and meatballs. That's awesome. Dude, that is awesome. I would buy it. I would buy it. This is a movie. See, I think Ron's late. I'm going to buy you one, Dave. I'm going to drive by Buffalo on the way to Salem. I'm going to throw it out the window, and you're going to come pick it up off of Highway 90.

I'll do it. Ron, I think you're on to something about the writer's strike situation. I'm also three bourbons in. I agree. The reason is – I may not be able to go grocery shopping at this point. I think you're onto something because of that writer's strike situation. Because, like, yeah, this is the movie where he's like, well, it ain't Dr. Seuss. I couldn't believe. No, that wasn't great. I'm not going to lie. That wasn't great. I'm not going to defend that.

Another weird just a line comment is when he says, I am eternal. That's it. Yeah, that's kind of cool. But but the way he says it, the way he pronounces it, he says, I. I am eternal. Yes. And I'm like, what's eternal? Eternal. This is going to be like a three hour retrospective on this movie alone. I am Peter Wolf. Jay, I have two things to say about that. All right.

One, are you questioning the great Robert Englund on how he pronounces things? Well, that's not how I say eternal. Two, no one knows about the Krugerberg and Robert Englund. I'm guessing that's correct, right? That's two. Two, you're telling me there's never been a bad line written in the Saw franchise, your favorite franchise of all time? Time to win.

not a goofy line the franchise that in the later movies brings back fucking jigsaw as a ghost because they can't get him in there because he fucking died in the third fucking film is a ghost he's not a ghost he is a ghost and like Six and seven or whatever. No, he's no brother. He is a fucking ghost. Has parameters and it's set in reality. Oh, the one that has a movie in Mexico that speaks Spanish? I'm like...

Unlike in this clown show where it's no parameters. Listen, when we do the fucking – We did. Oh, we did this all last year. Oh, my gosh. But listen, the pizza scene, it wouldn't have happened in the first three movies. It's over-the-top comedy to me, so I just don't like it. And I know I'm not alone in that. Dave, can I – it's fair that you don't like it. It's a personal thing. But can I at least – can I at least –

bring this to the table. The fact that Spirit Halloween is still selling soul pizzas, like, that's the legacy of Nightmare Novel Street 4, don't you think? Yes, that's cool. I'm glad I used Screaming Meatballs as a description of this podcast earlier on this very podcast. Wait, Ron, I think you're giving credit the wrong direction. Why? I think that it is a credit to Spirit Halloween and their coolness for celebrating an 80s horror movie, not...

The reverse, which is because Spirit Halloween does this, it must mean that Nightmare's decision to do the pizza thing. They wouldn't do it if it didn't sell. So if the general public didn't want it, they wouldn't do it. Am I wrong? Yeah, it's a cool thing. It's year after year after year. Yeah, well, like I said, I props. Is it not one of the iconic scenes in all of the Nightmare on Elm Street franchise? It's memorable. It is. It might be. I don't know. But all of his lines.

All of his lines during that are really – They're fine. They're fine. You guys just – Okay. Well, anyway. You guys love your rubber bread and rice for dinner. That's just my taste, but I'm still getting onto the logic. So far, this is what's happening. It's subjective. For sure, it's subjective, yes. Right. So now, welcome to Death Row, pizza scene is bad. One hour and seven minutes. We see Tori.

And Freddie tells her your shift is over. So he dismisses her. This is Alice. And she wakes up in bed. Answering the question also at the start. Okay. The question I said earlier. And you said she was at the wheel of her car, Ron. And I said she's either in the theater or she's at home in bed. But she's definitely asleep.

Okay, so that's where she was. She never left. So now she's there at one point. You both must be asleep in the car. But it makes no sense. I'm giving you open up for like 48 hours. Why does it not make sense? No, no. I'm talking in order right now, though. OK, just listen now. Hour seven. This is what happens. We see Torrey says your shift is over. He kicks her out. He kicked. He kicked. Yes.

Right. And then she wakes up in the bed answering that question. So now this is also the start of I'm driving. So here's the problem. So is this real life or is it a dream? Because how could they keep going in the loops of I'm driving? It's not a breach. No, she makes it quite clear that she – that they are dreaming. She is fondly but the – well, that's why she – Just because she says so? It's official? So then what did we see five minutes ago?

Well, hold on. Well, that's just terrible logic. I can say, you know, rabbits have a dream is happening. Yeah, but hold on a minute. And I tell you what she does say when we get to that. This is what happens. Five minutes ago, we just saw Rick, whatever, Ron, Dan, waiting outside there. And now we know for a fact. It's Dan, yeah. Dan. And we know for a fact that at this time.

Alice is at home asleep. She didn't make it to meet him. So why would he suddenly be asleep when the last time he saw him he was standing? But that was real life when we saw Rick. They had nothing to do with Rick or her. She was in a dream. Remember, she was in the theater. I'm not going to say the timeline is really descriptive and super explainable, but –

She did wake up at some point and she went and met Rick and then they were in a car driving and they both fell asleep because they haven't slept in like 48 hours. And that's why they had the accident because she hadn't slept in a while. So she fell asleep at the will. And they were in a loop. I'm not – again, I'm not saying it's super explanatory. It could be explained more.

But that is what happened. I think that you can tell that from the movie if you watch it. I hate that loop. I love the loop. I hate it. It's like Groundhog Day. It drives me nuts. Jay, we're going to sword fight over that. Okay. They're looping. So that's got to be a dream if they're in a loop, okay, which makes no sense. Why would Dan be dreaming? But we'll get to this. So all of a sudden.

They're driving. She says, here we are. She says, here we are, which is ridiculous. Like you wouldn't know that they were stopping there to go and run. I'm Tori, but whatever. Here we are. She said here we are better than they have. I can't put it said it. Come on. I'm just joking. You might be right. I'm just joking. Here we are. Okay. So she fell asleep. Now here's another one. So we're to believe.

Now we're back in the other girl's dream. So we've left the dream that Kristen is in or whatever her name is, Alice, and somehow Dan's with her, which makes no sense. And now we're going to flip over. Dan fell asleep as well. It makes sense. Why? They both happened up for hours. They both fell asleep. I don't think it's that hard to believe. Have you ever been in the car where more people fell asleep? Tell me this. No, but he wasn't in the car. The last time we saw him...

Hold on. Last time we saw him, he was looking for her. She was she woke up from the dream and then she left the house. OK, now I got in the truck with him. So what do you think he would do if he was waiting there for five minutes and she didn't show up? Don't you think he would go looking for her? You think he's just going to drop dead in the street and fall asleep? Well, I mean, I don't know that you can dictate what someone else does.

It's just illogical. It's not the best. I'm not going to disagree with you. It's not the best. But I don't think it's terrible. Well, I'm just going to tell you. All I can do is tell you what I see. You're going to tell me that this girl, physically fit, not having any trouble with sleep, this or anything is going to fall asleep while she's ventured. It's been obvious through the film she's had trouble with sleep. I don't agree with that. I don't agree with that. I don't.

OK, well, agree to disagree. I didn't saw anything. She literally says in the scene before she's not slept in like two days. If she says that, she knows when she falls asleep, someone dies. No, no. I'm talking about the girl who's bench pressing. You're going to tell me she's going to – Oh, you're talking about – Well, she's bench press Tori. That's fucking ridiculous, dude. Oh, sorry. I never drop F-bombs on this show. Sorry. Sorry. This show is explicit.

I tried to be good a long time for Jay, and then I just – I am good. He doesn't seem to care. He doesn't care, so I just – I'm just like crazy. Yeah, this shows the explosion. I try. It's fine. I mean I don't think Spawn's listening anymore, so it's okay. Well, here's the thing. I just want to say, Dave and Ron, you have such an endearing love for this movie. Dave Z is right. I think in this film, there's people falling asleep way more in places you just wouldn't think they would.

In the scenes leading up to this, I agree with you. I agree with you. Don't get me wrong. Don't get me wrong. Okay. But in the scenes leading up to this, these people have said they've been up for like 48 hours. Yeah, yeah. I don't think she ever said that. Yes, oh, she has said that. Oh, no, not Deb. Tori, I'm watching it tomorrow. Okay, I'm watching it. Why do you keep saying Tori? It's Deb. Whatever her name is. I can't help. I get it, okay. Tori's fell.

You're right about Deb because Deb never is a true believer until it happens. Yes. But there's no reason to believe that she hasn't fallen asleep. It's late at night. Well, she's bench pressing. This athletic person who lives for working out is going to be a teenager, is going to be bench pressing on a bench and fall asleep? Come on, dude. What are you trying to sell me?

What are you trying to sell me? What is this? Dave, I have two answers for that. One, this is the most fun I've had in like two months. So thank you for that. Two, I don't really have a legit explanation for that, other than...

I don't know. She's been up because her friend died. Her Sheila died and she's been upset about it. And she kind of almost all believes that the Freddy Krueger thing is real. So maybe she's been up for a minute, but I don't I don't have a stronger explanation than that. So I guess. Again, can I say I'm not giving this a 10 out of 10. I know that. My 10 is perfect. This is obviously one of the plot holes that have poked its head through. And this whole...

When I'm done, look at – this whole thing is a plot hole. I'm talking – one giant one that we're in the middle of right now. So anyway – I don't think that the time leap is a plot hole. I think it's one of the best parts of the movie. I don't see how Dan is asleep. It makes zero sense to me. He's been awake for a long time. He says that. Yeah, but we don't see him going to sleep. We're just supposed to accept it just because the movie says, oh, here he is.

What would you do if you were watching people? You didn't see them going to sleep. You just see them in the dream world, and then you realize they're asleep. When do you see Alice going to sleep? Show her right before it happens. They never not show in the entire franchise. They never not show somebody.

Right before it happens that something's going on with them and then they wake up. That's not true at all. No, no. In fact, in fact. They always show them dozing. One of the hallmarks, Dave Z, of this franchise is the fact that, I mean. The films, they actually show us in a dream before we realize they're in a dream. So, yeah, they show people asleep. I mean, they show the dream. No, I'm not saying that.

You misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm really – during this time loop, Alice actually – He didn't – he appeared in a car. Right. You understand what I'm saying? We're supposed to believe, if you're following Ron's logic, that he's standing outside this restaurant while – She is in another dream with somebody else. She's all concerned about Tori. So that's all going on. And we're supposed to believe he doesn't meet her there. And then for some strange reason.

He falls asleep. We don't see it happen. And he just appears in a truck. No, this is what I'm saying. Dave, this is what happened. First of all, the girl's name is Deb, not Tori. So Tori. Deb. God damn it, Dave. Deb fell asleep at some point. And Alice accidentally shows Freddy Krueger this is the next girl that you can kill on accident. She doesn't mean to do that.

Then when she tries to save her, Freddy Krueger, because he is the master of the dream world, puts her in a time loop where she's asleep and Dan is asleep. They fall asleep at the wheel because they've been awake for – You know, days at this point, and I don't know if you've ever been on a road when you've been asleep, even awake for a long time, but it has a very hypnotic effect. And when they see Freddy on the road, they crash into a tree in real life.

which puts Dave's life, not Dave, Dan's life in danger, but wakes Alice up. But at this point, unfortunately, it's too late for Deb. Because she has been crushed in the cockroach hotel. And it's awesome. It's beautiful. It's great. It's a great death scene. It's a great death scene. But one of the best of all time.

One of the best of all time. It's a highlight of this movie. Absolutely. Agreed. Yes, yes. Absolutely. It's next level in two ways, okay? One is good, and the other is bad, and it really shifts the series. After that... Then the kills get even just more. They go to all these fantastical places, and it just gets to not my cup of tea. I like what I see in part one, two, and three, my personal taste. So, again.

That's just my opinion, but for me – I haven't seen five and six in a long time, Dave, so right now I can say you're not going to get much pushback from me on that. But four – listen, again, I'm not saying four is better than one. I'm not saying four is better than three. I'm saying four is a good slasher film for 1988, and it deserves to be one of the better slasher films in this franchise and in the 80s.

In total. That's my take on it. That's fair. So here I'm going to go. One hour, 11 minutes. We're both asleep. He's got us going in circles. So I can buy that. I can buy that she's still in bed sleeping. And we just discussed this. But Dan was just there a few minutes ago meeting her, and he didn't show. He's not asleep, and he's not out looking for her? Question mark. So I've already said that. He's a dude.

He's a dude. You can fall asleep anywhere. So she pulled Dan in, even though in real life he's supposed to be meeting her at the Crave Inn. Wouldn't he have to be asleep? For her to pull him into his dream. Dave, the situation there is they're both in the car. That's why they crash because she's asleep at the wheel. Okay. Which also begs the question, so why wouldn't Freddie do that every time someone –

Pulled someone else in a dream. Just pushed him out of it and say your time is up. You know how he does that? No, no, no. He needs Alice. He needs Alice to bring him people. So he can't kill Alice. Now, yes. Now, yes, but I'm saying all the times prior to this. He's been getting – he's been in situations where people have been pulled into dreams since part three, and he never did that before. No, no, no. He's only done that with Kristen before.

That's what I'm saying. But remember, Kristen was bringing friends into her dreams. No, no. As soon as Kristen bought him something else, he killed her. Okay, then why doesn't he just – that's what I'm saying. She gave the power to Alice to bring other people in, so he doesn't need Kristen anymore because Alice can do what Kristen did. Now he killed all of the Elm Street children.

Everything else on top of that is just like icing on the cake. Okay, so yeah. Why would he push the other people out of him? He would just kill them. He didn't kill her because he needs her alive. Well, he needs her to bring more people, yeah. She's the bridge. Okay, no, that's good. All right. I can accept that. Okay, hour 12. You can see the chain in the back of the truck for the crash, amateur hour. Don't tell me you haven't noticed that. Dave, honestly, I guess I never noticed that.

Ah, yeah, it's a bad freaking edit. I'm not going to say you're wrong. So, yeah, it was an amateur hour move. I don't like it. Okay, fair enough. Well, I mean, you know. Hey, I hear you. It was a troubled set. I hear you. I listen. I understand, and I know there's excuses and everything else, but it's like we always say with every movie. All we can do is judge what's on the screen. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's fair. Okay. Hour 12. Oh, you can see. I just said that. Hour 13.

Put him to sleep. He's already asleep, right? That's my question. Yeah. Unless they woke up in the crash. Well, this is what I'm going to say. And that's what I said. Unless they woke up in the crash, but that was all a dream, wasn't it? Yeah, but wasn't the crash a dream? Weren't they in the dream world?

So if they had a crash in the dream world... They crashed in the dream world, but they also crashed in real life. Because what happens in the dream world happens in real life. We've seen this a thousand times in this franchise, where if you get slashed in the dream world, you get slashed in real life. So they crashed... What looked like they crashed into Freddy in their car imploded in the dream world also means they crashed like a tree in real life.

Well, that doesn't make sense because what about if she's in the theater and she gets sucked into the freaking screen? That was like four or five scenes ago. I know, but it's still the same movie. So how can they pick and choose which things are going to happen that happen in real life and which ones aren't? I mean, that's a little picky. I mean, that's a little picky.

You don't think breaking the old – it's breaking its own rules. She was just in a dream. No, she was just in a dream. Anything can happen in a dream. Right, but your argument is because it happened in the dream, it also happens in real life, right? Sometimes. So sometimes there's no – that's the problem then. There's no – it's not a consistent thing. You can't just make rules as you know. You know this. In the dream, she went into the theater, okay?

And she got pulled into the theater. The fact that she's dreaming doesn't mean she can't get into the truck and still be dreaming. Yeah, but that doesn't make sense to me. It's just trying to fit too much reality in Dream World all at the same time. You're just throwing things against the wall and just saying, okay, this is the new rule. We're just going to do this. It's poor writing to me. It may be too much, and it may be poor writing. I'm not going to disagree with you there.

In the reality of the movie, she just went to the movie theater in the dream and then she ended up in the truck in the dream. It's all part of one dream. You never had a really fucked up dream where you were in like several situations. No, I get that. I understand that. It's all part of the dream world, which has – which fortunately for the writers of Nightmare on the Street franchise really has no rules, right? So you can kind of do what you want to do.

In the dream world, because we've all had crazy-ass dreams that didn't end where we wanted them to end. Sure, but this whole thing only makes sense if the whole last half hour is a dream. Otherwise, it doesn't make any – because you and I, we're not going to see – I think the whole half hour – I'm guessing that you've done the math on this, so I'm going to trust you. I'm guessing the whole half hour is a dream.

Yeah, just for no reason they go into this dream because it doesn't make sense. We're not going to see eye to eye about Dan. Not for no reason. She knows she's got to fight Freddie. She says to Deb and to Dan. We got to fight Freddy. We got to come up with a plan. And then she goes to sleep. And unfortunately, Deb is killed in the cockroach scene. And then her and Dan are caught in that. So if the whole thing is a dream, that's just what they went with. This is what I'm getting at. It must be.

Now, I think it's lazy writing to just say that because then anything goes, and I don't appreciate that, especially with the other three movies being what they are. I'm not going to say it's not lazy writing. I'm not going to say it's not lazy writing, Dave. Again, there was a writer's strike, so I'm not going to say it's not lazy writing. But I think there's enough here to keep it okay. It doesn't offend me by any stretch.

I think it makes sense within the series of the storyline that we've established between all of the movies from the first one to the fourth one. Well, only if this whole third act. But it still shouldn't happen. This is my problem. Ultimately, here's my problem with the movie. Well, the whole giving away the power. I don't like. I think it's stupid. And the whole her acquiring the power of her friends after they die is also stupid. It's taking the it's taking this franchise. It's.

Yeah, but again, they're just saying it. You can't just say anything and you've got to go with it. Why can't you? You're making up your own mentality. Why can't you? Why can't you? Well, because people do it in other movies and people critique that. So this movie can't be free of critique when it's that egregious. They can make a powers for Freddy. It's a mythology that they're creating as they go, as long as it doesn't.

Country Dick, any past issues that they've made in the franchise? I don't see what the issue is. Well, like I said, it's a different kind of movie, and I don't appreciate it. Um, that type of writing of making it saying here, here's my powers. And all of a sudden I got powers. This franchise was never, it's the only reason the kids in the last movie.

had powers is because they were the last of the Elm Street children and it was worth the gimmick. And it was fun for a one-time thing. That's what I'm saying. It was perfect. They're saying the Elm Street kids only went to get that powers. I'm saying I can accept it if that because they never had before. So I'm like, you know what? I can accept it because of that.

So that's why – but now you're going to take this franchise and from here on out just say, well, that's the new rule. Everybody has a fear and everybody has a power. Let's ride the cliché. It's just not good writing, man. I feel like – the writing in this particular franchise is set up for this sort of thing like in the first film we established that Nancy has the power to pull things out of her dreams and then in the third film

We established the fact that the different dream warriors have different powers. Kristen's power in general is the power to pull people into her dreams. I mean, I guess it's a personal preference, but I don't have a problem. with the power of the Dream Master in this particular film, the fifth film, being the power to be able to absorb the powers of her friends as they die, because I think it falls right into...

The usual plot of this entire franchise. I just don't understand how Alice has all these powers just for no reason. There's nothing to base it on. Why is she the dream master? Just because they say all of a sudden there's never been any hints. That's all I have to go by is say, yeah, I mean.

I understand what you're saying. That's literally all we have to go by is the fact that they say she's the dream master because she has been practicing these powers since she was a child because her mom taught her these powers. But that's all we have to go by. Didn't Armand just teach her a rhyme? I thought it was just about a rhyme. My problem with this song is that rhyme.

And that it wasn't firmly established. The rhyme wasn't firmly established before the end of the film, which the rhyme was used to defeat Freddy. That's my major problem with this film. But I mean, we're probably not going to get. Well, I mean in the first film, all we had was the power that Nancy said, well, I don't believe in you, but you're gone. Right, which I like because I have my own theory on it.

So it's all the power of belief, honestly, and if we – we're probably not going to get a prequel film that shows how Nancy's mother – I'm sorry, Nancy. Alice's mother teach Alice. this rhyme and how she could defeat a great killer in the dream world. We're probably not getting that film, so we're going to have to take the film at its own merits as they wrote it.

Yeah, I mean I just don't like what they've given us. I can't – what can I say? That's your personal objective opinion. That's fine. Right, but I can still say it doesn't make sense. I think it's okay within the realm of – Within the realm of this franchise, to me, it's not any more egregious crime than Nancy just being like, I'm turning my back on you, and now you don't exist, and now we have won.

Yeah, but look at the end. Cherry on top, man. I think of all of the movies up to this point, up to part four, I think of all the movies, this has the most definitive ending with the souls of the people that Freddy has killed. coming against them. I don't like the fact that the Dream Master poem hasn't been established throughout the film, and I don't like...

I don't like the fact that, oh, you see yourself in a mirror. It must mean that pure evil sees itself. It must mean that you're going to die. Because in the third film, right, there's a whole hall of mirrors. There you go. Bad, bad, bad. You can make an argument that he didn't see himself in that hallway or whatever. I just don't think it works very well. It doesn't fly. My main issue with this film is the ending, that ending, only because they didn't establish it.

And they didn't really – it was just kind of like a cop-out ending. And with the Rider-Strike being what it was at the time and the film having so much production issues as it did at the time, I kind of understand it. But at the same time, I just got to judge the film. Based on what I see, the end result, right? I think the other nine-tenths of the film is pretty solid. And I think it's a worthy continuation of the Elm Street mythology.

To this point, and that's my take on Nightmare on Elm Street 4. That's how I feel about it. That's fine. Right on. I'm just – What can I do? Tell you what the problems I have the whole third act. I just do. I just don't get it. So if it's all a dream, OK, she jumps into the mirror and comes out in the operating room. Right. So.

He is asleep because Freddy shows up. But wasn't he already asleep when they were in the loop? And then I said, oh, maybe he woke up. Yeah, he's asleep until they crashed, and they both woke up. And then she went to sleep.

and he goes he was put to sleep i get that because she understands that he's put to sleep she's got it she's got to save him and that's when freddie shows up in the operating room right and then she crashes through the mirror whatever because you know she has to confront freddie to save dan who's the only friend she has left.

Yeah, no. And then Freddy decides to spin them around instead of killing them. I understand why you're not going to kill Alice, but he had opportunities. And in the past, he just goes and kills. All of a sudden, now he's playing with them. I think it was more – his attention was more taken away from Alice than it was worrying about Dan, honestly, because Alice was coming at him with that mirror thing. Well, that's at the very end. Right now there's no mirror. That's when they're spinning.

I'm saying the Dan and her are together. So they're just doing whatever. Frankie's – Freddie's playing with him. I don't think it's a problem. I don't think it's an opportunity at that point. So apparently Dan did go to sleep because we see him bleeding in real life in the OR when he was just hurt in the dream by glass. So now this is like a dream within a dream within a dream. That's the entire franchise, man. That's how it works.

This is what, but again, this didn't happen to me in the first three. So I don't, it just doesn't, those things made sense. This stuff to me is just like, well, we're just going to do anything because we can. Oh, no, it happened in the first one. Like a dream within a dream within a dream happened in the first one for sure.

It's the only way you can explain the ending. Oh, well, I have a whole thing on the ending, but it's – Well, you were in there for that discussion at the time. Right. No, to me, the whole movie is one big dream. And then the first dream ends, and then a new dream starts at the very end, and that's when freaking that's why it happens. So she beats him once, and then goes and gets killed in the next dream.

Which is what happens, right? Okay. Well, I won't get too deep anymore because it's just going to be why this, why this. Right. Well, I guess she does have a proton pack too. Because remember, the thing that she got Freddy with at the end, she pulled something out of the freaking wall and it was a proton pick. And I was like, what are you doing? It was part of what she gained from Sheila dying. Yeah.

Sheila created that, and she just pulled the power plug into it. And it's part of the power of belief, too, which is part of what killed Freddy in the first film. So wait a minute. Your opinion is this. Like, here's my question. And I'm going to answer, too, because I what you've already said. Tell me if I'm wrong, though. This was my question. Why didn't Kristen take all of her dead dead friends powers?

She wasn't the Dream Master. Kristen wasn't the Dream Master. Her power was she could draw people into her dreams. She wasn't the Dream Master. Alice is the Dream Master, not Kristen. Yeah, so that's your theory. That's your whole thing. Kristen did not know that Dream Master existed. until alice mentioned it to her no i understand but so you you're putting this dream master in a literal type of sense

When I have always just watched the movie and took the Dream Master as this was a poem that my mother said to me when I was little, when he had bad dreams. Isn't that what all happened? In my opinion, the Dream Master... I mean, the way it's presented in the movie, it makes sense that Alice is the dream master. Kristen's dream power is she can pull people into the dream. She's not the dream master. Alice is the dream master.

But why is she the dream master? Just because her mother said a poem to her when she was a kid? Because she's been studying dreams her whole life. She's been studying dreams? Yeah. Is that what they say? I'm asking. Why does Kristen have dream powers? Why does Nancy have dream powers? She's just a person who lives on Elm Street who has powers. Yeah, but they're in dreams, so it's okay. It's fine. I get that. It comes out, right? So I get that, but...

Why is Alice this being, this freaking dream master being? You've crowned her this title. This is your pet theory. This isn't like anything that I missed on or anything. That's what I'm asking. My theory is that she's practiced this her whole life because her mother, who has deceased before this film, begins.

imparted this knowledge upon her so she's and we see her daydreaming several times so she's practiced this study lots of times and anyone who is familiar with like modern day witchcraft or modern day remote viewing or modern day, for example, palmistry, anything knows that you have to practice this.

skill in order to become a master of it so i feel like alice has done this with her daydreaming and her knowledge of the dream master and her practice in that dream master mode that's just my personal opinion i don't know that rennie harland i don't know that rennie harland would agree with that i don't know that lisa wilcox would agree with that uh but that's my personal opinion from setting this movie and studying various forms of other religions, of alternative religions in my lifetime. Okay.

So you've come up with this on your own to make the movie work, and that's fine. I don't mean that – I'm not saying it in a condescending way, I promise. I'm just stating the fact, like not being jerky. Sure, absolutely. But I don't think that that's – I don't think that's necessarily not represented in the film either. I don't think I'm jumping through hoops to make a movie work. I think that that's insinuated because of her daydreams and because of her discussion about her mother.

Teaching her about the Dream Master poem. Interesting. OK, that's. That's kind of cool. That's kind of a cool theory. I do it all the time. There's movies that I like, and I do my best to try to make them work. And I come up with reasons that if I believe they're plausible enough, I could do it. Sometimes I can. Sometimes I can't. When I can't.

I can't give – I can't rate the movie as such. Just like what I was saying about – this is how I am with every movie, even The Godfather 2. So that's just – I'm big on – I need things to be illogical. So – With all that said and everything you've said, here's what happens. I'll tell you one thing. My wife is watching the movie still, and this happens. The Dream Master thing comes up. She holds up the thing. Evil will die. Blast.

And it goes away, and my wife says, lame. And I totally concur. Listen, it's not the best ending. I'm not going to lie. I have a problem with the ending. I know you do. I said this throughout the podcast. I don't love that ending because the Dream Master poem is not established well enough. Right on. And why did Freddy's Girls suddenly help Alice? And remind her of the poem. That makes zero sense. Those are her through part two and part, pardon me, part three and part four.

anytime we've seen these girls before them yes we know what they are but they seem to be what do you call it even though they are what they are and they're dead kids from him they seem to have this admiration In a way, a sick type, almost like they're part of a cult. That's his house. I don't know, but they fear him. But at the same time, it seems like they're like, you know, in a way, in a weird way, teamed up with them. They're part of his package. Is that fair to say?

Yeah, I think it's just part of the dream. Like you said, I think it's just part of the dream package. Like, maybe they were just fed up with Freddy at that point. So they decided, like, we're done with this. Yeah. David, Freddie, you got a hot 401k. Listen, listen. Keep on fair treatment. Freddie. Again, this movie isn't perfect.

But I think that it is a good movie, and I think it's one of the better movies than The Nightmare on Elm Street. And I think it's one of the better slasher movies of all time, honestly. Wow. Okay. I'm not going to say it's top ten. I'm not going to say it's not top ten, but it's in that area. It's in that area, I believe, personally. Nice. I can respect that.

Yeah, so I think it's a kick-ass freaking destruction of him when he gets tore apart by the soul. It looks great. We got Linnea Quigley's little – And we see Linnea Quigley's tits, right? Yeah, yeah. Always a good thing.

Great scene. Great destruction. The end of him is not a bad scene. The lead up to that where they use the poem and they use the mirror, I don't think that was established enough throughout the – throughout the rest of the movie which might be just like a case of you know the writers being on strike and rennie harling kind of making shit up as he went um it's amazing this movie's as good as it was

dealing with all of the production issues that it had. So I'm not going to defend the ending so much, but I do think that last scene, and I don't know if you noticed this, Dave, or not. But when the souls were going up to what I assume is heaven, there were several – if you watched, there were several souls that you could actually tell what character they were or not. I think I saw Kincaid for sure. I saw Sheila for sure.

That's sweet. I like Sheila, by the way. That's one character I liked in this movie. Several of the things that you've pointed out are legitimate issues with the movie. It's not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. So, Dave, after our discussion, okay, we discussed minute by minute the last half of this movie. I think we've done a fair job of showing our various points of view.

What do you rate this movie? Okay. I'll say one more thing. Hour and 26 minutes. Absolutely. More reasons to stay awake. Don't like that. She just lost her brother and her friends. But now, because she just got a boyfriend, she has more reasons to stay awake. So, yeah. Screw you, Alice. Every horror movie, though, Dave. That's every horror movie.

Hey, no matter what movie I see in it, if I see a line like that, I'm calling it out. I don't care if it's Friday the 13th, nothing. I'm an equal opportunity guy, I promise. I do. Like the reflection scene. I do. To me, that's the way to force you. No, I love it too, Dave. I love it too. That's how you do it.

That's how you do it, not the thing on the lockers like we saw earlier or things like that. That's how you do it. A little – And for listeners, what we're talking about is at the very end of the movie, they have a scene where they go to a wishing well. And Dan says, oh, I'm going to throw a quarter in the wishing well. Do you believe? And Lisa's like, yeah, I believe. And then she sees Freddy's reflection in the wishing well. And once he throws a quarter in Freddy's reflection.

goes away. And I feel like this is the most definitive ending to any of the Nightmare Noble Street franchise we've had so far. Right on. No, that's cool. So before I give my rating, I'm going to say one thing. I spoke about my wife's opinion of the movie earlier. I'm going to take it back real quick.

I don't know. Well, she didn't watch the whole thing, but I know she said lame about the one thing, and she complained about something else. I don't think she liked it. But my daughter, her favorite horror movie was A Nightmare on Elm Street when she was 10 years old. And I waited to show her anything else. And by the way, the things I showed her, parents listening out there, if you have young kids, do this. If you still have TV, I don't have TV.

TV like that anymore, but a lot of people, I think, do. So if you do have TV... Every Halloween, when TNT or whatever channels are showing horror movies, that's when you record your Friday the 13th, your Nightmare on Elm Street, all that stuff, and then you could show it to your younger children. It's edited out. So it's a good introduction, and you can still censor it if you so choose. So that's an option. So that's what I did. And Nightmare on Elm Street was her first movie.

And she loved it. And then after that, I did show her the uncut thing. I just muted the sex part. You know, when they're moaning upstairs, oh, reality sucks and all that. Yes, I just muted that part while she was watching it. And I think that's about as bad as it gets. I mean, there's violence, but I mean, as far as like sex, I just didn't want her to see sexual stuff at that age. It's just me.

Yeah, so she loved the first one. It was her favorite horror movie, period. So when she got to be 11, I recorded part two because there's a little different. There's a little more adult stuff in there, and she watched that one. Then I decided I was going to let her watch part three, the real one, because I was so high on it. So she watched it, and she really liked it. And she liked the first three. The first one was still her favorite.

But she loved all the first three. I showed her part four. Remember, this is an 11-year-old. After we finished, I said, so what did you think? Because every time I did it, I used to do this thing called the 10-year-old horror fan or 11. I forgot what, but I did it on Exploding Heads in the early days of it. And I would interview her and play it. It was cute. It was her response. So I would have like a voice memo on my phone, and then I'd play it on the show.

i would do so she watched part four and then afterwards i recorded her and i said so what did you think and i never when i watch movies i never i want her honest reaction i don't want to influence her at all So don't think I went into it telling her, oh, it's too much comedy. I believe you. Yeah, I didn't. I want the real reaction. So she watched the movie, and I said – and then it ended. I go, what did you think? She said, it was okay. I said –

I go, do you want to continue on and watch part five? And this was her question. These were her words. She goes, are the rest of the movies going to be like comedy skits? And I said, if that's what you thought this was, then yes. And she says, she goes, no, thanks. I'm cool, she said. Dave, that's a fair reaction. Like, I don't.

I don't necessarily disagree with that. Like, I think that's fair. Yeah, well, that's good. I kind of see where the franchise is going at this point. Yeah. But I don't think that negates the quality of this movie. Hey, that's fair. I have problems with it, not just the story and everything, but I have problems with the production, the editing, just a lot of stuff, mostly the writing. So I can't really go. But I will tell you this.

And there are problems in all those areas. I'm not going to lie to you. So now I'm stuck here, buddy. The rating I wrote down was a 5.5. Okay. I was almost considering going a six based on some of the times I conceded to you. And I said, yeah, you're right. That does work if you do this. That's what I do. But then I started thinking about how poor the writing – not the hell with it. I'll give it –

I'll give it an – you've talked me up to a six. Okay. Okay. That's fair. Because you made a couple points on me that worked. So I try to be fair.

With the ratings. So there you go. I'll give it a six, which is definitely the highest I've ever rated it. Hey, listen, I'm super happy with a six. Listen, I'm with y'all on this, and I think... I didn't rate this as high 10 years ago, but because of my recent – and I say recent because of the last 10 years – my recent love for collecting and studying Ephemera.

I think I'm also giving this an 8 out of 10. I don't think it's the best film in the franchise by far. It's not even the second best film in the franchise. But I do think it's a good slasher film. And I do think it makes sense storyline-wise with Nightmare on Elm Street. Every time I watch it, it just gets a little better because I see things that connect with the first or the third.

movie that makes more sense, whether or not the filmmakers meant for that to happen or not, because we know this was a pretty troubled production. I'm sure we'll explore that more when we get to Nightmare Normal Street 5 and 6. Even though Jay and Spawn of the Dead have abandoned us, I'm sure that they would give this movie a 10 out of 10. Can I say something before you wrap it up? Sure. Thank you for being a good sport.

It was so much fun. And see, this is what we sell. We can have these discussions and we can have a real freaking difference of opinion on something. But we're both adult enough and cool enough to say, hey. We can agree to disagree on that one, and that's the end of it. And that makes me very happy. And I want to know if I changed anybody's minds or if anybody's minds can be changed because it is hard to do.

It's just like what you said earlier that you could say this, this, and this, and this, and then what's the phrase? I still feel the same or whatever. It was a film that was a product of its time, and I take it. As such, as being a product of its time and not being meant to be timeless by any stretch, I think it's fine. But given the fact that... This film had such high expectations and then came to even like a portion of that I think is pretty impressive given the production issues that it had.

So I'm giving this an 8 out of 10, as is Guilt Man Joel. And I assume that Jay and Spawn gave it a 10 out of 10. I assume that they gave it a 6. That's what I said. Which isn't bad. Get laughing. I'm the host, so I get to exhum. Well, let me ask you this. Let me tell you this, I should say. I was going to ask you if you understand what I'm saying. Tell me. Okay. Nightmare on Elm Street.

1984, Nightmare on Elm Street Part 3 are in my – both of them are in my top five slashers ever. Absolutely. And I love slashers. So a lot of my feel towards this movie – is anger for taking something that I loved and I thought was peaking right before and taking it into a different direction and taking the Freddy character down their road. So it's almost like I have a – because I love the others and I'm –

including two. Two I like a lot too, not like one and three, but because I was high enough on one, two, and three, this just, I guess, angered me. It's weird to say sometimes you take something personal. Do you like two more than four? Yeah. Really? Four would be, here's how I'd rank them. The original, three, I know, two, the remake, and then four. Wow. Yeah, I think two is terrible. But we went over that in a previous episode. I wish I would have been there for that one. I really wanted to.

I want to be for all of them. Well, Dave, you sign this with some trivia, and no one else is here, so you have to do my trivia. Are you ready? Okay, I'll listen. Let's do it. Okay. Let's see if you can get any of these, Dave. Are you ready? If I answer, should I? If I know the answer, should I answer or no? Yeah, I only have four. Okay. So if you don't know the answer, just say I don't know the answer. Okay. Are you ready? Yeah. So...

My first question is, Lisa Wilcox and Tuesday Night, and you might not know this one because it's not really anywhere. I just kind of know this because of my interview with Lisa Wilcox. Oh, nice. They started their own company. After Night on Elm Street 4, years and years after, they were both in the corporate world, what did they sell? Wow. What did they sell?

I'm going to say handmade clothes. You're close. They sold footwear jewelry. It was called Toe Night. It was called Toe Night was the name of their business. Toe Night. They sold, like, toe rings and things. And I think they were active until just recently when both of them started the horror convention circuit. For a while, you could get toe jewelry from a couple of the Norman Elm Street alumni. That's sweet. So here's another question for you, and we discussed this earlier in the podcast.

Opening song to this film, before the credits, was a pop song called Running. Do you know who sang that? The original? Are you talking about... I know Tuesday night saying it. Tuesday night saying it. You're right. There you go. Okay. Wait for Daisy. Yay! Yeah, Tuesday night sang Running, and she was very surprised when they used it for the movie. She didn't know until they actually did the Hollywood screening.

They were using it for the movie. I thought that it was made for this movie because obviously the lyrics, Nightmare. Oh, no, she did. No, no, she wrote it for this movie. Oh, I thought you said they chose her music. I thought maybe you said it already existed, and they heard it, and that's why you want to put it in the movie. No, no. She wrote it for this movie. She didn't know that they chose it for the movie until she went to the premiere.

She didn't know it was chosen. That's amazing. And for those that are listening, I assume Jay would have put up the picture of me on Tuesday night holding up a single of one of her pop songs. Yes, brother. Just send them to me, and I'll post it in the show notes for this episode. So, Jay's returned from the dead, apparently. Okay.

Jay, I gave you a 10 out of 10 on this movie, just so you know. You gave me a 10 out of 10? Thank you. Well, you're welcome to give your actual rating on this at this point. I know you're going to pop back in. So David and I were talking for 18 hours about Nightmare on Elm Street 4. Hey. I mean, the thing is – We're into trivia now. If you have a plenty harder thing – I'm way too drunk to go to the grocery store at this point. I'm not going tonight.

Ron, if you have a one-hour, 33-minute movie, why shouldn't it have a three-hour, 22-minute movie? Three hours seems like it's been 17 hours. Yes. I wanted to change his mind, man. I couldn't do it. Braun gave it a 10. I'm not going to say, they brought some good points. I'm not going to lie. I had one more thing before we do ratings. Yeah, we got to make sure we get everything covered.

So this could be a spoiler if you're super, super, super. We're done spoilers. Okay. So at the end, when the glove was off of him one of the times. Yeah. The knives were facing towards her, like, and then she kicked the knives like you wouldn't want to kick a knife. Like, could have stabbed her in her toe really hard. It didn't, and that's really lucky of her. Toe pain sucks. Yeah, toe pain sucks. So it would have been so funny if, yeah. Jay, we're in the middle of the trivia right now.

Oh, okay. So let me finish the trivia, and then we'll get you and Spahn's rating on this. Okay. So I gave it an eight. Joel gave it an eight. Dave gave it a six. Guess what Doc Shock wrote? If he's wrote something in the last – since we've been on this podcast for like the last 18 hours, I have not seen it. He has because I – at the beginning of this recording, I'm like, hey, Doc Shock, are you recording with us?

for A Nightmare on Elm Street 4. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he wrote, nah, that movie sucked. He was all about it, I thought. Right on, Dave. Well, I mean, Dave, he gave it a 6 out of 10. That's not true. He gave it a 6? You're right. Well, I had a 5.5, and I said because I conceded a couple of times, so a couple of things you guys said, I feel like it's only sporting to go up to a 6.

It's a six. I respect that. I respect that. Okay. So do you want Spawn's rating next, Ron, or what? Or are you still doing trivia? Hold on, hold on. Let's finish the trivia, then we'll get you ready. Are you guys going to be here for now? Okay. Well, yeah, but, yeah, we have a – I have another podcast to record. Well, I got two trivia questions. Okay, cool. Sorry. Sorry. Okay. Go ahead.

So there was a song in the theatrical version that changed during the VHS version. It was taken out of the VHS version. It was on the soundtrack as well. Do you know the song? No. I don't. So in the theatrical version, the song when Deb starts doing her bench presses before Freddie appears is the song that played in the theatrical version was called Refer to Shreds by Blondie. And it was replaced in the VHS version. Hmm. Okay. Cool. Okay. Next question. Next question. Next question. Dave Z.

Robert England's favorite scene from all of the movies combined is in this film. Do you know which one it is? Oh, I used to know it. Hold on. His favorite scene in all of them. Oh my gosh. I think the teacher, but I don't know. I don't know. The what? I said, I think the classroom means the teacher, but it's probably not that. No, it's not that one. I would guess the elbows cockroach scene. No, it's actually the time loop scene. Ew. He said that one. He's not even in it.

He said that was the most dreamlike in any of the scenes in the franchise. Okay, okay. Jay. Cool, okay. It's been 18 hours. Yeah. What do you rate Nightmare on Elm Street for? Okay, I'm at a 5 out of 10. I call it a low-priority rental. What about you, Spawn, having not seen Nightmare on Elm Street 3 or any others for Nightmare on Elm Street 1? Okay. Thanks for bringing that up again. I'm going to say...

Six out of ten low-priority rental. Okay. Well, I mean, I think that's fair, and I think that's probably where... The users of Rotten Tomatoes and the critics and other critics, it's around the same area that they rate the movie as well. Yeah. To wrap up this $1,800. podcast about Nightmare on Elm Street. I am sure that the four of us have talked about this movie more than anyone else in the world, including the people who were involved with it.

so to wrap up the show depending upon you know where you fall I don't think anyone rated it as a terrible movie so it's like Basic, mid to good movie dependent upon where you fall. I am your host, Fred Head. Ron Martin. And on behalf of Jay of the Dead. Dave, Dr. Shock, Becker. Gilman, Joel Robertson. Mr. Watson. Dr. Walking Dead, Kyle Bishop. Greg Amornis. Macula. Dave Z.

And you guys were especially privileged to hear from Spawn of the Dead in this particular episode. We want to thank you all for listening to J of the Dead's new... Horror movies. The MTV Podcast. A poor podcast.