Hello everybody, and welcome to another exciting episode of JavaScript Jabber. I am Steve Edwards, a host with the face for radio and the voice for being your mind. Amine, excuse me, but I'm the host at least I am. Today with me on the panel, I have coming with us live from Tel Aviv, Israel, mister Dan Shapire.
How are you doing, Dan, I'm doing well.
I'm perfectly fine with you being my mind. I could use the mind.
Yes, mine is a terrible thing to waste, as they used to say. So, how's weather in Tel Aviv? We always have to talk about this. It's still warm and hot.
Yeah, well, I don't know about lovely, but it is hot.
It's a it's a.
It's humid because we're on the Mediterranean's humunity too. Okay, yeah, but on the other hand, we've got the beach, so, you know, some of the nicer things that we have among the also lots of not so nice things we recently have. But that's a topic for a different discuss.
Yes, exactly. And coming as our special guest today is mister gunner Berger. How you doing Gunner? All right, I'm doing great. While these voice messages come on my phone, so we are here to talk today about vibe coding, that hot topic across the web and across the world these days, it's at least in the tech space. Before we get into the topic, Gunner, can you give us a little backgrounded on yourself?
Sure, full background or vibe coding background or I'm.
Whatever you deem relevant to the topic at hand.
All right, sure, I'm I'm a true nerd, been a nerd for twenty plus years, been in tech industry for twenty plus years. First half my career is centered it traditional. It switched over about fifteen years ago. I was a Gartner analyst for a while. I covered in computing. It's worked Dan and I met.
I went over to Citrics, was there for about six years.
Have been currently now at Amazon. Been here about six years and I've been leading product in some form another. It constantly changes, but I've been doing some form of products for a while now. At CIDRICSS, I would say more new product initiatives and PI. I always kind of choked at our CEO, Mark Templeton would always have like and one more thing on stage at Synergy that's typically where the CTO department would have something to do with
that and one more thing. So I did a lot of MPI mergency acquisitions, that kind of stuff at Citric and yeah, and I jumped over to product, which is where I've been ever since. Yeah, and so I'm I'm really interested in this topic because I think the definition of product manager or at Amazon we hire product PMT product manager technicals, and I lead a team of these professionals, and I think that that definition is changing rapidly because
of what AI is empowering product managers to do. So Yeah, I thought it's really fun to have a conversation with technical people about this coming as kind of a I'm a nerd technical, but I'm definitely not like a developer technical.
So I would like to add to that, Soner. If you recall, we kind of started talking about you coming on the show after I posted on X kind of a shout out inviting people who are involved with vibe coding in some form or shape to come on our show to talk about it. And about a month ago we had Anthony Compolo talking about vibe coding from the developer perspective. So I thought it would be great to
have somebody coming at it from a different perspective. One of product management because I think again, looking at product managers in the company that I work at, Size Sense and other companies I talk to other people who are in product management, I do see it making a whole lot of impact. And I do think that one of the most impacted fields are developers and product people, but they're impacted in somewhat different ways, although there are a
lot of similarities. So I thought your your take on this, your view, your point of view, would be very pertinent to our listeners.
I think it's interesting that even I'm assuming your listeners are typical like in the development world, which is exactly kind of what I'm seeing happen within the product management worlds, Like those worlds are crossing more because it's almost like we spoke two different languages in the past, right, I speak the language the customer, and where I work we are very big writing culture, so I'm used to like great stories you go deep to the customer that world.
But because of what this new technology has created, it's almost like having a translator with us at all times, where now I'm speaking developer language, even though I'm not right, I'm I'm vibing, and I think that has has massive change to how we approach building products.
Uh, throughout the industry, and I think everyone.
A conversation I've had with a lot of my you know buddies at work is if you had to start a new company today, would it look the same as if you did it five years ago? And I argued that it would not, like you know we have. I'm sure we'll talk about what is the role of junior devs? How do you get senior devs in a world where junior devs don't have a job anymore? Like, Uh, there's so many different directions we can come to this, but let me let me get one more dig in before
you jumps some work. I do want to have like a legal note here.
I'm Gunner. I'm just here talking about my experience.
I in no way in speaking on behalf of my company at all, So please don't edit that boasts. Just make sure I'm required to have like a legal disclaimer that I'm speaking on behalf of myself and experience.
I haven't product well, I don't know.
We just got a response to our sweet on job script jabber from the head of AWS that said tell Gunner to be careful.
No, I'm kidding turn go ahead, turning my back.
Yeah, I do have to say that it's it's essentially the same for us. We're all here talking on behalf of ourselves, not representing our employers. It's uh, you know, take our opinions for what they're worth.
Uh.
Interestingly, I recently spoke with one of our senior developer slash architects at size Sense, and he's one of the people that has really bought into AI. He's the one using up all the tokens in his development environment. And the way he talked about it is how he feels in a lot of ways like he is becoming kind of product working with a team of junior devs that he's instructing on what they should be doing doing and then critiquing their work.
So it's it. It is very.
Interesting that we are coming at it from different perspectives, but it seems that they are kind of converging on on on this kind of a central place. But again, I'll hand it over to you to get your opinion on this.
Yeah, I mean, it's what is the output that a product manager should have these days? Like I still think the input is very much the same, Like you need to go deep with your customers, like be customer obsessed. Understand what the problem is that you're trying to solve. Like that's something that is still very firmly a product manager role.
But then it's what's the output.
Well, previously the output is you know, writing a PRD, you know, a business requirement doc, product requirement docs, product feature request, whatever, it's it's in the world that I live in, as always some form of a document that then we have some paperwork, right, and we have a meeting, and I have a meeting with you my head of engineering or you know, some SDEs whoever it is with someone on the development side, and we have conversations, they have questions. So then I go back and I modify
my documented. Maybe I'm doing focus group testing. Maybe I have a UX team coming in and uh sharing you know, their perfection how this thing should look right, and just this is just how it works.
This is you know, in the industry, that's just this is normal product manager one of one stuff.
And so we spend weeks, if not months, in meetings and doc reviews and back and forth, back and forth, back and forth in what I like to call agile full because it's neither actual nor waterfall. But you're doing this over and over and over and over. Whereas that iteration changes, everything changes. When I can just go into a tool like Cursor, like Caro, like you know vs Code with some MCP's running, Like there's so many tools out there right now, I can go on a tool and literally.
Just like bullet point my thoughts.
It's like this is this is this, and then have that tool take my thoughts, stretch them out and either write me a better BRD that makes me think of, oh I didn't think about the yeah QA testing, I should have done that. Yeah, And it thinks about that for me just fantastic, because then I add more questions. Now I'm having this back and forth from a product manager perspective with the AI on what are the requirements? Like, fully, what am I? What am I missing? Just ask the
prompt what am I missing? And it it's like, well, did you think, well this is this? So you have these better docs that are written in much much faster times. But and I think, more importantly, I don't need to generate a DOC.
I still do.
That's still kind of the expectation, but more often than not, I'm actually more interested in building a prototype, and you know, working in sandbox environments and saying, you know what, I have this idea, let's.
Just run with it.
And I don't have I don't need a code review, I don't need security all this kind of stuff because I'm not a developer, right, But now I can develop and I can actually show a working system to my development team, where now the handoff is not necessarily just a document, it is a working experience prototype that I vibed, and I think that's where things change. And then we have this whole question of like what does that mean
for developers? How many developers you need? If you're able to do quick prototyping like it used to be, I would maybe write a one pager up, send it to a junior dev. The dev like whips up a prototype in a sprint. We look at the prototype like that's we're talking weeks of time down to an afternoon. For me, we're talking less communication errors because now I'm actually showing you, not just telling you. I've said this multiple times with
never on a podcast. It's you know, there's this phrase that a picture it's worth a thousand words, but a prototype is worth a thousand meetings. Just showing me the thing that you're trying to build, and it shouldn't matter that the code is not that good, Like it doesn't matter. What matters from a product standpoint. It's because I'm not I'm not trying to say build it like this as
far as like the code goes. I'm saying, build it like this because this is how I fundamentally want this thing to work.
So are you saying then that it's a it's from a Okay, you're saying so the underlying code may not be what they want, but the UI, the appearance, the flow, this is what you're trying to give them. The idea is gives me. The ideas is the is the says, is it very close to what you want? As an end product ors? You'r I would assume this is just sort of okay, this is a general idea of what I'm looking for. It's not going to be you know,
fit and finish isn't going to be there. It's just sort of a general, yeah, this is what I want it to do, so you can see it instead of me'b describe it on paper.
That's just it. It depends. I would agree with what you said. The fit and finish doesn't necessarily have to be there. But at the same time, it depends how deep we go into using these AI agents.
Okay, I gotta be someone careful.
Let's just say there's an MCP that exists that has my UI framework built into it. Well, now my fit and finish is my fit and finish.
Now is the code fit? I don't know.
I'm not intelligent enough to tell you if the code is right, but I can tell you that the fit and finish like the when I pull it up on.
You know, a browser.
Yeah, that's actually what the end result should look like because I can use an AI that takes like a figma and turns it into working code that's public information, right doing taking advantage of these tools out there, Like now, all of a sudden, like my UI is my UI, even though it maybe only took me an afternoon to do it, I actually have a rich UI using the components,
using everything that I wanted to use. But again, I do want to draw a really firm line that I'm not saying that the actual code makes any sense.
That right, for sure?
Yeah, we get that, but the fit and finish might depending on the tools you're using.
A few questions about that. So, first of all, I totally agree with you and understand the concept that the code is not production ready. For example, it might not be secure, it might have you know, it might not require our log in or anything. It just it just looks like, you know, there might not be issues like permissions and all this stuff, although you might actually vibe code some of that in order to show how that works, if that's part of what you're designing. I totally get that,
and I totally agree with that. I am curious about some other aspects though. So first of all, how likely are you actually going to be to try to actually connect it to back end data versus just mocking some data? So that would be one question. Another question, you mentioned that you can take Figma designs, but will you actually even be waiting for the UX people to you have the designs ready or will you also kind of quote unquote jump the gun on them and say this is
kind of I'm not like, I'm not a developer. I'm also not a UX expert, but this is kind of like how I envision it working. I don't know if this is the proper color scheme, if this is like it has accessibility and stuff like that. I just want to show you how I feel it should kind of look. So those are the two questions that I have.
I come from a position of privilege here. I just want to be really clear about this. I have a UI framework, and in fact, I can pick from a set of UI frameworks that have a wonderful UX team
behind them that are built on it. So your question of like as a product manager, when I just like, hey, this is how it works, honestly, like I would point it to an MCP of like, hey, using this framework, right to talk to this MVP about that framework, I can within a few minutes, I can have something like I don't know if you've messed with.
Like lovable AI or these other ways.
There's a lot of these guys out there where they can actually give you the fit and finish that is aligned to your standards. So even accessibility, this is actually one of that I'm glad you brought that up, Like that's a common one.
It's like, oh, well, you know, a product manager.
Doesn't necessarily think about that because they're just thinking like the end customer problem is, Dan needs to talk to Steve, and this is how we got to make it work right, and they're not thinking about light mid dark mode and whatever else is going on within the Accessibility to I framework. But that's where I point to, like that may be
true and how a product manager thinks today. It's like, hey, I'm just going to solve this problem, but these tools make it so even though I'm not necessary to think about it, they're embedded into it. Even your comment Steve about security, if you're using the right tool, if you're using the right I don't want to call it prompt because they're like the prompts before the prompts, I forgot what they're called the rules.
I think that's what they're rules.
Like if you have the right rules in there is like and when you respond, like think about securities, think about this, think about that, like when you have those embedded in the background, even though I might not me thinking about it, which is what I love about it. By the way, it's like, I'm just thinking, I want to get Dan to talk to Steve using my new in semessenger app.
I'm making it up.
It's like cool, Okay, well I didn't think about this, that and the other, but it did. And that's where I was saying earlier is like where I used to write a BRD and I have to think about every single edge case scenario. Getting a meeting is like, Gunnard, did you think about this edge case?
And then I get mad.
It's like, my gosh, we're going to be naval gazing for the next four months about every edge case. Well, now I can throw it in here and it's it's got doing a very good job. Like these tools six months ago to today are just completely different as far as I'm concerned. Like I remember trying to do this about six months ago and I'm like copying and pasting stuff into like chat, GBT or Rock two five or whatever it was at the time.
Now you know it's fully embedded.
It's thinking the latest one that I'm very impressed with this amount of QA testing that it built. I've never once asked it to build a QA test for this
feature that I'm biting. But these tools are as they're getting more mature, they're thinking about scale, They're doing all this stuff where it is thinking about accessibility, is thinking about security, is thinking about how do you test this stuff at scale so you automatically alert when things are working properly or latency is getting too high or you know you're.
Yeah, but even when you do have a design system, UX stood as a job. I mean, you know how to organize stuff on the page, how to break things between pages.
That's where I say it came from a position of privilege in that, yes, you exit the job. So I have a rich library of components that I can talk to an AI and have it use those commonents. Now the question is what happens when you come up with an idea that doesn't it within that library component? My position privilege is, well, then I that would be kind of traditional product management of like, hey, go talk to the UX team, have a meeting.
This is what I'm thinking. They build a component and so yeah, that would be maybe I'm moving back into the traditional world.
But you only have so much of that because once you built this library up, I can in that library is understood by AI.
It just doesn't.
So in effect, you've not only cut kind of the developer out of building the MVP, you've also cut the designer out of building the MVP. You could, let's let's put it bluntly.
I would say compress. We've compressed the amount of designers we've needed. We've compressed the amount of developers we've needed within this process of creation. It just allows me to iterate much quicker now. I think you actually kind of hit an interesting point. And I think AI in general, AI is only backwards facing, right, it can only tell you what it's been taught. I think it struggles more with like, hey, I want to do something that's new
and different. I have a much harder time and I'm like, hey, I want a UI component that does this. Those prompts have done that, Like those are painful, whereas it's lot easier when if it's something that's more common, like hey, this thing don't exist, it can do that no time.
But thinking I don't know. At the same time, you see.
These freaking crock AI videos that do interesting stuff. But in my experience that the creation side of it that's like new and different, I find that to be a little bit.
I had that amusing situation recently. I had I was trying to get and I was playing around with a new library that does a certain thing, an alternative to an existing library that we're using, and I asked it to build a mall application for me using that does a certain thing using this new library, And I was going. Cursor was chugging along, and a certain point it says, I failed, I'm going to revert to that old library, which I found to be really amusing. It's kind of
almost a human type response in a sense. So I stopped it because that the whole point was building the thing using the new library, not just doing it again using.
The old library first.
Or deleted my entire front end because it got tired of my type script airs the entire front and said compiled successfully.
Your airs are gone.
And I literally tweeted at the time, I said, a I will kill us all. Don't ever tell it to fix the human condition.
Yeah, sometimes sometimes it, you know, there was this kind of funny story, it's it's a bit old about back in the COVID days, they were looking to use AI to analyze X rays chest x rays to try to figure out to see I kind of a doctor assistant trying to figure out based on the X ray if that person has COVID or not. And they came out
with some amusing results. So, for example, it turned out that a lot of the healthy people were the picture was taken while they were standing up, while people were sick. Pictures were taking while they were laying down, and the chest is kind of positioned differently when you were laying down, So basically they I based its decision on whether they were standing up or laying down.
Such for machine learning use case, I'm like, generally they either.
Yeah, I know, but it's kind of like, of course, I was just giving it as an example with that. With these systems, you all don't always get what you expect to get. Sometimes you get funny shortcuts like you mentioned. But fixing all the errors by deleting all.
The farms, well, basically your computers do what you tell them, do you know what we want them to do? Is the adage I've always Yeah, I.
Had the problem with my kids as well.
By the way, that's amen to that, brother, Amen Gunner. I wanted to ask you a lot of this has been pretty high level, and I'm sort of a nuts and bolts kinds of guy, so I'm curious if you could walk through this, maybe the steps and the tools as much as you can to. When you're vibe coding, you know how you're creating, what are you opening up? What do you talk to me? What are you typing into? How is it giving you your output? Sort of hard to do audio, you know, without the visual I'm sure,
and that would be very nice. But I'm just curious to see what the actual mechanics are of vibe coding, because everything I've heard had been is a high level. Oh hey, it's as great. I can tell to do this and it gives me this, Okay, great, how do you do it?
I I have quite a few friends that are engineers, developers, and they all laugh at me on my text chains these days because I'm learning things that developers learned ages ago. Right, it's not in my world as a perfect example, and the thing is, like I spent ten years in it, I should know better. Is the answer to some of this stuff, But just something as simple as using Git. I didn't bother using Git until it deleted my entire front end and I had no backup.
Damn it.
I spent a couple of days on the front end and literally I couldn't get it back.
It was just John.
I have to interject that I've come to a similar conclusion that Git is one of the is like the thing to use together with five coding slash AI coding, because it usually asks you do you want to keep something or reject it, but I found that it's easier to just mostly accept it, use see that it works, and do comparisons using git, and if it's bad, then just revert using Git.
Yes, because there you're talking about curser.
I did a lot with Kurser.
I have more recently moved to clock code because cursor just I don't know what they're ll and they're using as band scene. I don't think they're using clots on it,
but it's just not great. Like I just I'm sure you guys have had the experience where like I'm gonna I got promise a okay to fixate, I got to go change B B broke, C C broke, and then you're just watching cursor go in circles for an hour, even though you can read it literally like even though I'm not a developer to answer your questions, see like.
How do I'm kind of get in the middle of it, but how do I actually do it?
Is I'm reading the AI, I'm reading NonStop of what
it's doing. Again, I'm not a developer, so what am I doing is like it's code code, code, code code, But then I start to see things like tenant ID and it starts to show up often enough, and I start having airs often enough where I have actually caught it doing the wrong thing, like from a developed code standpoint, where it's like I did one five thing where I'm like, I was doing a single database using rols and then I switch it to like one database per tenant to
make the permissions easier by the way, things I couldn't say a month ago, and in that I could say, it's like I did this migration between these two database search for multi tenancy, and I could see it like doing it wrong, and so to interject and like no, like that variable doesn't exist anymore, like you're doing it wrong, and they're like oh, and then it changed it and I literally helped it troubleshoot its own stupid air cursor drives me crazy. Cloud Code have had far, far fewer
actual coding errors as I'm using the software. But anyways, so how do I use this stuff? Well, I've tested a lot of different AI systems. The one that's currently on my screen is visual Studio, and I'm just using cloud Code via the CLI, which is how clock code works. It's got a great in it function where we'll actually look at your entire project, and in my opinion, it's the best at actually understanding the project. And yes, I've
done curser from from zero to one in cursor. Cursor is very good at this and understanding your project as well. But I've just got too mad at the Cursor circular chasing of errors.
That just drove me crazy. I have. I've found that Claude is much much or cloud code is much better at that. Unless is no plug for anyone, I don't really care.
So cloud code is a terminal application basically, if I'm looking at it right, I haven't used it yet. Yeah, Like, it's not like an I d ee. You open up and here's your files and here's your code. Net is basically command Linehere you're typing in text.
Hey do this for me?
Yes, I mean I could screen share it with you, but I'm literally doing a terminal in the side of my ide.
Right.
So I'm in there at typing Claude. Boom, it launches, I do slash a knit. It then goes and reads the entire Fulder structure that I'm that I'm in uh, and then it creates a empty file.
And it's just very similar to Cursor, right, Uh.
Curser's just looking at that fuller UH structure, and it's creating its own documentation of what it sees.
A Cursor and Claude are doing very small things.
I wish Claude actually had that more id rich integration. I like the UI of Cursor.
Better than I like the UI of Claude, but I will.
Say I like the results of Claude better, so I'll deal with the small amount of changes there.
So you said it reads your fulder structure. Do you have to have a Fulder structure in place before you start or are you starting with basically nothing that says here, I'm going to create this project.
Yeah, yes, you can always start playing.
It's just I'm often code or vibing on something that you know, I didn't vibeuse. This isn't my day drop like, this is just something I do from about six pm to midnight most nights. So that's the other thing I find really interesting is that as a non I'm a creator. This gets into a different sidebar. But like I do in my spare time, I am a woodworker. I like
to I like the active creation of things. That's actually why I choose product management is because I like the act of creation, but it's often been too difficult for me to understand.
The languages are changing all the time.
I did computer science twenty years ago to college, like the language of college is changing.
I don't think my C plus p bus knowledge helps me anymore.
And so it's nicest to be able to truly create and feel like I can see an output of an idea in very short amount of time.
But now I told you I went on a tangent there. What was your question.
Well, I was just going to say, we can call you gunn or the creator, but no, I was just I'm just trying to get my head around what it is what you're actually doing when you're vibing, you know, how are you doing it?
So I start like, right now I've got ID open a blank I just start open new folder, blank folder.
Right now.
The product I'm currently looking at, I got two of them open. One of them is Caro, which is ki r dot dev. It's on a wait list right now, but it is public and it's very similar to Cursor powered by clouds. On it you can switch it to three, seven or four of course fron on four. And the thing that I found really interesting about this one to get to your question, is it has the vibe It literally is called vibe as a function, and the other one is spec as a function. And you can think
of this and other ones like ask versus agent. I think is what curser calls it, like am I going to write you code? Or am I just going to respond to your questions?
Similar?
But the SPEC in this thing is really interesting because that's kind of like as if I'm talking to a really good product manager or program manager depending on.
Your miro suft.
But this this thing is going to start taking my idea is, hey, I want to create a new instant messaging app.
Okay, cool? Uh.
The spec is going to start asking me questions, what what do you want to do with the instment? Is some interesting app? Blah blah blah, And we kind of go through this whole thing together. It's going to then create my PRD. From there, it will we're talking about compressing a different use cases. Product manager is compressed, right because now I'm able to write docs much faster. You talked about UX, We talked about that. The other thing
is impresses the program manager's job. Everyone is effected by this thing inside this industry. So it goes back to my question, if you were to start a company, what would it look like. So the next step of this spec is to design it. Right, So here's all the normal stuff you get from a product manager. I needed to do this, you know, as a user. I want to do this so that I can do the standard
user story, very product manager centric user story. So now I can do that by just talking like a human and saying I want this messaging app that allows me to connect to these people. I wanted to only be for government employees, you know, so let's bring bring in some you know, tough security stuff into it. It's like, do all this kind of stuff.
Okay. Now after you do that, now it's going to go to a design phase.
So now I'm in a principal engineer level at least you know where I work, be a principal engineer.
Okay.
So now it's going to look at this and I can say, you might ask me the question or follow up and to say, like where do you want to design songs? I want it all built on a bus. Every service is a bus for obvious reasons for me. But I could say is your I could say, GCP, I could say, go use some startup, doesn't matter, so then it will do a full design spec. And that one is really impressive. How well, because that's actually something
I'm smarter act. If you're outside of the development world, you're like, you know, my world of actually understanding how different services work together.
Okay, so real quick design, you're talking about designing the structure of the app. When I think design, I'm thinking you I design.
And then.
So just a clarify are you going to use for this type of workload the system, market system market that role?
Okay, I just want to clarify what design we're talking about here.
So we're designing the entire system, So what is the front end going to use? We're going to use React whatever.
Uh. So we go through all the things they will do it.
I have some back and forth with it on that, and then it gives me a design spec.
Now this is me vibing. You asked me a vibe question, not what I'm doing it like for my day job. Just this is me vibing.
So give me a full design spec, which I enjoy because now I can, as a product manager turn back around and I start looking at.
It wants me to use Eacy two containers.
It doesn't just as an example, or wants me to use a far Gate container and make sure you use a doctor container. Well, now I actually do my little product management thing of like how is this going to cost me?
Right?
So then I started looking at these different design specs and I say, you know what, that one's pretty expensive. Can we use serverless here, don't use serverless here, use already s here, use my squel here, right, And to have these different conversations, and then just like you with chat GBT, it's going to start telling you is like, well, here's the advantages of this type of databas system, resist
type system. These are the different you know, running it as a service, and these cost tructures for these things. So all these things kind of again get compressed in you in you you know, my job to build a five year p and l of these things. So as I'm looking at the design, I'm also looking at the cost of the design that there's ways that we can adjust that design to make it more cost effective without
necessarily to directly impacting customer experience. I had one the other day with use puss grass versus Aurora, and you know.
The gives and takes there.
So it's doing design doc which I would actually in my day job send it over to a principal engineer, some senior level architect type person to just to design that. From that, this is where the program manager comes in. Once you have the agreed like product specs, you've now got the design of the system done that it will literally break down. I did it. I did it by accident the other day. I didn't realize I was going to do it. It will break it down by sprint.
I will get an entire burndown chart using this AI. Now I haven't tested any of that, but it was like, dang, like talk about yet another role in this industry where you look at this and it's like this will take I think the one idea is like seven months to complete.
I'm like, no, you just do it. It's a good about maur. That's scary.
That is scary because the obvious question that that this brings up is where do, aside from your you, yourself kind of sitting in the director's chair as it were, where do other humans fit into this process.
I'm biased your developers, I'm not someone has to sit in director shares. You put it like what are the right problems to go solve? Like, I don't know about you, but I've got family members that love to call me up with their million dollar idea, sure, like I can get you.
Remind me there was this old Dilbot strip which now gets a whole different meaning thanks to vibecoding, where the boss comes to Dilbert and says, I have an idea for a product. How can I get it off the ground? And the but ask them, well, do you have the technical know how? It says obviously not, So do you have the money?
Says no?
Then basically what you have is nothing. Well, now, thanks to vibe coding, you might have actually have something even if you don't have the technical know how or money.
So that gets into another interesting conversation that I think one of the advantages I have is because of my background. I'm not like I've hired NBA grads with no technical background.
I think that's a different struggle.
But for my background, like I started in it, like I was a systems engineer at some point in time, Like I've had a lot of different roles in my life. So a lot of times when it's giving me a design, like I understand like even a simple term like database.
I know that's asbout as high level as we can go.
Some some pms fresh out of school may not really understand what that means, right, And that's being kind of but you get into these lower levels, like you do have to have a fundamental understanding of how how building applications work. And if you don't, you can ask the AI to teach you. But you do need to have that. So when I say to Steve earlier, like I'm reading it, I'm reading it because I do have a fundamental knowledge
of what it's doing. Right, Oh, it's doing this thing to do this, and that's going to go plug in over here. It's like, okay, I have some fundamental knowledge over twenty years of history here where I kind of get it now. I don't necessarily on the code, but as they say in the Matrix, I don't even look at the code anymore.
I just see blonde girl, blue dress. Whatever he says to the matrix.
If you understand my reference there, Yeah, that's kind of how I think about it, Like it's doing a bunch of stuff, but I'm starting to just kind of see what it's doing, right.
Yeah.
The other aspect is something that came up with our discussion with Anthony when he was talking about vibe coding from the developer's perspective. He talked about the there's still the need to be able to take complex problems and break them down into parts. So obviously, you know, as AI gets more sophisticated, it can also start doing that itself, but it can go veer very far off track if you just give it a very general problem and tell
it to solve it. So it's like, you know, if you tell it, like, I don't know, bake me a cake, you might not get you get the cake, but you might get a cupcake, or you might get the cake in a savory cake, or you might get the cake in a totally different flavor than what you want, or you might get the cake that's not edible at all or whatever.
Yeah, you can get yellow cake uranium.
I mean, that's kind of the point I'm saying, Like I would agree that was true about six months ago, I don't think that's as true now. These tools have gotten significantly better. I literally just put in my I want to create an instant messaging app for the government use case. When I used earlier and it is now giving me exceptance criteria across the board of my requirements that I go through, and it is thinking about scale, it is thinking about how do you actually break this
thing down into components that are more easily manageable. It's doing all of that for me. And that was kind of like the mind blown thing I had a couple of months ago because I used see you, I'd build a I'd go into chat TBT and have.
It build a lambd, Python and function.
Of some sort for me, like it was good at kind of a single page, single use.
I've been doing that for a couple of years. It's only more recently where when you were wanting to do some things at greater scale that I feel like these tools have caught up to that. I'm not saying it's there yet.
I'm not saying I can vibe and have a production ready anything, but I can vibe and have it think around the big stuff that you don't normally do. But again, that requires a certain level of background and expertise to understand why that's important.
My family member calling me up.
With their million dollar idea, they don't have that background, they don't have that understanding of like why it might be important to understand permissions or I don't know, that's too easy, but you get my point. So these tools
have gotten significantly smarter. And I'm saying this is in the last this year, last six months where I've seen a significant shift and the tools ability to just write me a quick script that's been going on for a couple of years now to thinking bigger, thinking, scalable, thinking, modular.
It's they're much much better.
And I would actually point to kiro Is I think one of the better ones of doing exactly that. Even but even like Claude Code and others, I've noticed that they are looking at how I structure out a folder from zero to one?
Right, how do I structure this thing out?
And if you ask, if you put in the right prompts, which that's where the user experience starts to fall apart, because you have to know to ask the right questions. But if you put the right prompts in, it is going to give you the type of experience I would expect, you know, working at a large, high scale company. And I think that that's an interesting thing is when it is smart enough to do this with a bigger picture in mind.
So if we think about that, and let's not even talk about today, let's talk about I don't know, two or three years down the road, which seems like a whole lot, but it's essentially nothing. Are we going to have like a convergence of the developer role in the product role where in both cases you're basically describing to the AI what you want and you're technical enough to use the correct terms and proper and proper explanations and be specific enough in what you request to get to
actual the actual desired results. Uh. And that's essentially going to be programming, Like being a programmer is going to be being is going to be what used to be known as being a product person.
The product persons their number one job is still to understand the customer problem that we're trying to solve. That doesn't change, Ever, the output of that does change, Like does that mean I'm writing a PRFIC q br D, Like what.
Is the output of that? I still think there is plenty of room for us.
You know, perificu is like an Amazon way of writing any kind of business business strategy doc. I still think there's a lot of room for As you know, Jeff Bezos would say, working backwards from the customer problem, you never go wrong there. So I think product managers still have a very important role in that. And I still as I surrounded by developers, I know them well enough that they have no desire to do that, like they want to build shit.
Sorry, I don't know the rules on language on this podcast, but yeah, so like that that role is still there.
But to your point, what is the output of me to the input of developer. That is where it gets more gray area. And I'm you know, I'm literally like meeting with my team and saying, you need to have an ID running as your primary these days, like instead of Microsoft word right, it is work with your ide Don't give me a doc that you didn't write with an AI because we have a very high bar for writing where it work. And you know, I don't have
to deal with grammatical issues anymore. I don't have to deal with tense issues or hyperbole issues because of how we work as a company. It's like so grammarly, yeah, yeah, grammatically like all this kind of stuff.
It's well, grammarly is different.
I'm just saying, like you have someone in your office that's you know, just you have an expert in any field that you want for the most part right here, put that on your screen, write your document, and collaboration with this thing. And as you get better at this, and as these these tools get better, you're gonna get
better docts. You're going to start doing a better job of not just understanding the customer problem that's still a human endeavor, but putting that in terms that and making it easier for developers to then build the next thing.
There's another conversation. We don't necessarily talk about it.
I do think the idea of sprint changes once this stuff really starts to steamroll, because I don't necessarily think we need to be working at two weeks prints anymore. I know some people do one three, But I do think there's a fundamental shift in program management.
That's another topic.
We might touch on that. But I have a question when you so you said that Amazon is is very kind of strict in terms of, you know, what the doc what the product, role is the product, the documents that are created, the standards that they adhere to.
Et cetera. A high bar. It's gonna be a high bar positive.
If you were working at the company that was not Amazon, would you would you still have these documents or would you just.
Use the vibe code result, I'm fully in on the kool aid over.
Here of our leadership principles as a company. And I'm not saying that because I'm recorded. I really do believe. I think we have great leadership principles here, and I love the perific format and you can google it.
This is publicly stuff.
I don't know how much talk about it, but I know there's a lot of stuff out there, so I want to somewhat avoid talking about that because again, I'm just here as Gunner. I'm not here as any Amazon appointee. But yeah, I would use them because you still need to have you need to understand the problem that you're trying to solve.
Period.
Now, how I build a doc, I would build it with AI, and I have built any doc I've built of that scale in the last two three years has had some type of AI assistance involved in it. So I build a doc because I can go I can be more rapid in my in building of that document.
And you know the pr press release epic.
You frequent last questions, the questions what questions should I be asking, Hey, you've you're I'm working on this thing. What questions am I not asking here that I should be asking? I might ask the AI. It's like, well, you know someone might ask about this is this is It allows you to look around corners that you may not naturally look around.
And that's why i'm you.
Know, you're you're You've got an expert of the room with you as you're, you know, a human, and you're not always going to think about all of the questions that I should be asking.
So having this this.
Tool at your disposal that's been trained on basically the human intelligence collective human intelligence like you, you'd be remiss not to use it. So I'm really interest stive you said you're the you'd be the anti AI, because I've been speaking down for thirty minutes of very pro AI, So I'd love to hear kind of like the anti version of this.
But from my perspective, like I can move faster, I can.
Have better documents, I have better questions, I have everything about It improves in.
My ability to make good product.
The negative, if you're going to have one is I do think it's the doom for all of us that we are having a job. But that's a whole other issue that I'm going to just sweep down the road into the future.
Well, so you want to say you want to hear my vay point, and then is that what you're saying Gunner. I'll start out by saying that there is not a tool that exists that, when not used in its proper context or as proper purpose, can be abused and is not going to work. Well, that is true of anything from I'll give a weird example carbon fourteen dating. In terms of dating, you know, geology and stuff like that. I see people uh twist and use that, you know,
to in various contexts and stuff. In my experience, you know, AI has can be a great tool. It can do a lot of things, but there are other things that it really sucks at. We had a discussion in my workplace the other day about somebody said, I am so waiting for the AI bubble to burst. And there's an article that I was going to do for picks that and I had to tweeted it out the other day and I got to find it again. But the gist of the title is basically, I'm going to e think
pile drive. The next person who talks to me about AI because people are so you know, sick of it, especially in the development where about everything everything's AI AI AI.
And as a person who uh prior to you know, Chat dpat Chat GPT's release that sort of made everything explode a couple of years ago, I lived a lot in the search world, Lucine based search, you know, Google type stuff, views and Lucine PATCHI, solar elastic search, that kind of stuff, and knowing one that AI is a model and models, whether it's climate models that I see have used all the time, whether it's economical models, whether whatever,
garbage in, garbage out. And also the developers have a very very large impact on the AI and what it generates. You can see models with bias, you know, from a
political standpoint, from any other nandpoint. You see it all the time in terms of oh, I'll comment on this guy, but no, I can't say anything good about this guy, even though they're both political figures in the same positions that have been You know, there's stories that I've seen, horror stories that I've seen from a legal standpoint with AI, where I basically literally made up cases that did not exist and attached them to some guy and he had
to clear his own reputation, you know, an attorney. There was a recent legal case in California that I've mentioned before where a judge censored attorney because she said, this is obviously AI. He quotes these cases and it goes to look, they don't even exist. The AI made them up to try to fulfill, you know, its request instead
of just saying say, I don't know it now. From a code standpoint, you know, when IT first came out, a lot of it is, oh, you can tell a I to write your code for you, and great, here writes are your code for you, And then you start seeing surveys that eighty percent of code that was generated AI eventually gets reverted.
I have to interject with a funny thing I saw next a while back where somebody wrote the dumbest person you know is currently being told by AI that that's the very good point.
Yes, right, exactly, you know, and so you know AI, it's it's like I said, garbage in garbage. I used Geminia to use chat GTP for troubleshooting code a lot of times, like shoot, why am I getting this error? You know, help me figure this out? Help me make PHP stand happy that kind of stuff, and even then I got corrected a lot of times because it gives me bad data. You know, last night I was messing around with the JavaScript inertia thing and we use this function.
I go look it like, no, that doesn't exist, and it's like, oh, yeah, sorry, I was wrong.
You know.
So there's so much that it gets wrong. There's so many dependencies, there's so many things that can influence it. And you know, one of the things that I think is obviously having to be work on is that if you give it a task and it can't do it, instead of saying I can't do it, it makes up a bunch of crap to try to fulfill what it's
told to do. And so to me, we had a guy on and I forget his name, and we were talking about AI models and he was going into detail about how AI models work and what they do, and I came out with that thinking that's basically just search on steroids, is what it is. And so so from a generative standpoint, you mentioned this earlier when you wanted to create something from scratch, it really can't do that. Generative generative AI is not something I would trust at all.
You know, if you're asking it to work with something that's already there and maybe helping you figure out in your case, is generating stuff, it's generating products and stuff like that. But it shouldn't be everything. In all you know, in all that it's being used in abuse for and I think, so back to my original point, I think as a tool, when it's used properly, it's very efficient.
You've mentioned yourself vibe coding, how it saved lots of time because it can do stuff so quickly and generate a demo for you, where in years past it would have taken documents written in meetings. And I know because I went through all those meetings and writing documents and that kind of stuff. But it's not the solution to everything. And you know, I've seen it takeover jobs. My daughter's fiance lost his job because it got you know, farmed
out to AI. And we see stories about Junia developers getting hired now because AI can do it for you. So there's pros and cons to you know that part of the argument too. But my point is, yes, it's a great tool, but let's not use it for everything and just saturate our entire lives with AI and it can solve all their problems because.
It can't well that it can't generate from zero.
I would fundamentally disagree with that, but let me caveat the point because you were you were jumping on what I said earlier. Using djingo, it will build a great thing. You have a framework, and it will build from that framework. My point was that we were talking about UI at the time. So if I already have a framework with a UI framework with a bunch of bones in it or assets in it, it can use those assets into
a fantastic job. It's when I want to create something that's fundamentally different from that where I would start to struggle. But if you think about that, that's that's not necessarily a bad thing. Like it's not creating type script JavaScript like it's it's not creating.
A new script, right. It's using that which it has been trained on and does a very good job of writing.
Code because it has billions of lines of code that it has been trained on to do. But I don't think it's going to come up with gunner script anytime soon that's going to completely change it. Maybe because I have read some of the non generative AI, but some of these AI tests where like all of a sudden, the AI are talking different AI in a completely different language and the researchers can figure out what it was doing. Maybe, but that's like way outside the realm of like generative
AI and what we're talking about. So my point is just simply like it's really good at taking something that exists like JavaScript, like typescript, like I don't know C plus plus whatever, and it's going to write that better than human I think, like to your point, you're arguing that, oh no, it's not. I would take the other argument. I think it will do it better. And we're talking less than twelve months time. I've seen in the last six months how much better it is.
Just switching from Kurser to Claude and saying how much better that is.
It's like significantly better in very short periods of time. So I do think the reason it can be better is because it has billions of data points to look from. The problem is like, if I want to create Gunner script, is the new better than Java script, Well, it has zero lines of code to learn from that, so it will be zero helpful in that endeavor.
Right. That's where I say, like it can't generate from zero.
From that standpoint, it can, but it can do a fantastic job if it has billions of points of reference to draw from to write code. So almost everything I do starts from a blank slate. I just want to be really clear, and I've gotten very far with prototypes from a blank slate, So I do believe it can do the zero to one thing very well.
But you also are having another comment. You said someone lost their job, and start to hear.
That I talk to me in a year, I who knows, Like I'm literally like I've talked about us the other day.
It's like, look, I just.
Can't worry about that anymore. If it comes from me, it comes from me. Do I think it can and should come for me? Yeah, I do. I think this stuff is getting closer, uh that less and less jobs are needed. And this is as far as like I said earlier, like I think AI is going to be a downfall, Like ultimately in the end, it's it's it's going to have a bigger negative outcome than a positive outcome. But unfortunately, I'm going to sweep that to the future. As I've been telling my kids. I used to tell
you go to computer science. Now, I say, flee from it. I don't want any of.
My be aware which job is not good to good luck with that one. There.
You know, there's a in the US. There's UH to answer your question about where to go, dan Uh. There's a guy named mic Ro who goes around talking about trades and the dearth of people that there are for them.
That for the people that are as compared to the people that are needed for jobs in the trades where they can make good mind me without going to college and sinking hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt and so and the joke, and he made a great point a little while ago, he said, And the Democrats used to be really bad about this is they would say, oh, you lost all your job because EPA shut down. Your come mines learned to code. Well, now you can't do
that anymore because there's no junior debs being hired. Because people are using AI. So there are places to go. It's just from the developer standpoint, people like you and I who have been around a long time and already know how to do some of this stuff more at a senior level, we're fine. It's the newer people who don't know this and want to get a job, they're in the cast twenty two. Okay, I need more experience if I want to get hired, because they're only hiring
FEUs a lot of experience. But where do I get the experience?
I think?
And to me telling an AI to do something, I'm a you know, I'm a ground level, nuts and bolts kind of guy. I want to know how something works at it's a base level. And if I'm just telling AI to do it, what am I learning?
Nothing?
But is it a bad thing for those junior debs to start in my position in the product world? Is it a bad thing for developers to really start with a firm understanding and with the customer problem is that we're trying to solve with this firm understanding of the cost model of solving it, how different database structures can cost you significantly different expenses on your P and L. I don't know why the things a bad thing. You
just might gravitate more towards the development side. So you start with this AI prompting PM type role that does prototypes in your traditional junior dev role. But now you're maybe just learning a little bit differently than how it's been taught today that you can't be separated from the customer problem, that the only way into this field might
be through the customer problem. But then you're like, hey, I'm going to gravitate towards the actual code that it's building, and you build a whole new chain of Like how you get to senior dev is you start from a different place like I didn't.
I didn't started as product manager.
I started it having problems with technology and I wanted to go to the vendor side because I incorrectly assumed I could make a huge difference over these technologies.
Okay, but where are you getting the actual coding experience?
Then? Well, I'm just saying like if would it be a blended thing?
Would it be as I'm not just going to learn CS in a vacuum of CS because I'm going to go sit in the cubicle and code all day. Maybe it's I'm learning CS within the context of AI is out there helping you along the way. But what are we talking about about AI? It is the inputs that we're giving it, right, the prompts that we're giving it. So are you learning the type of prompts that I am giving it. I would argue your customer centric prompts are we learning to start with the customer problem, which
I would very firmly believe in. As a product manager, you should understand your customer base, understand your customer problem before you write a line of code.
Well, that's always been true, A bad thing, that's always been true. I mean, what's the classic line about building. You know, if you build, they will come, or you build something for a problem doesn't exist. You see companies fail all the time because they built, Hey, this would be a great product, will nobody wants? So who cared about it?
Right?
That hasn't changed. That's always been that way with software, right, So I don't think that's anything new. What I the way I see it.
That is what I'm saying. I'm not saying it's new.
I'm saying the responsibility could shift where that junior role is a mix between the responsibility of that and understanding the code behind it.
Yeah, but I see as more as writing to the tool instead of underneath. And I think one of the best examples, you know, you hear people talk about prompt engineering as a whole new field. So what are you doing you're learning how to tell AI to do something. To me, that's like a grade school And this is a common thing you'll hear in education. My daughter is a teacher, and I remember hearing this when I was going through school, where.
You have.
State tests that you know your kids have to pass in order to do well at the end of the year. You want they make your school look better. In teacher if they do better on the state test. So what do you end up doing. You teach for the test instead of teaching for the material. To me, it's the same thing. Now you're not learning how to do the task, you're learning how to tell something else to do the task for you.
Before we cut to picks, I have to mention something amusing in this vein that recently happened to me. And this might not be indicative of anything, or maybe it is, I don't know. So I was reviewing code that one of our mid level engineers had written and she used AI quite a bit, and AI implemented a certain is it needed to iterate through database entries, and she had to generate the code for it, and it generated working code.
But when I reviewed the code, I noticed that it used recursion to do the looping, which would mean in the case of JavaScript, that if it did enough iterations, the stack would blow up. So, just out of curiosity I had, I asked the AI myself, hey, look, changes code not to and she didn't fix it. She she did not review that part of the code, so she
was not aware of that problem. She just ran some unit tests and the unit tests passed, and therefore it looked because none of them used enough data to cause the problem. And so I asked the AI, please fix the code by writing this loop non recursively, and it said fine, and it did it, but it implemented it as an as a loop within a loop, so it made an O of N problem into an.
O of N squared problem.
And then I basically got fed up with it and I just rewrote those ten lines of code lines of code myself.
But that's where I think an MCP steps then to soay, you know, like, that's my point I made earlier. It's like, you need to have an AI that's the smartest AI on JavaScript, and as you would build something like that, you would teach it. These are the things you look out for, right, So then your code review would be, oh, this isn't jobs or whatever? Did you send that through the MCP for the for jobscript review and literally an
AI you have taught it. Look for this, look for that, look for the other type of thing, and you can have the output if you want it.
Don't output new code that creates an N squared problem, Like, just tell me when you see it right and give you a proper code review, not new code.
Just capture the things that you see that are wrong. That That would be my kind of reverse to that.
It's like, yeah, I agree, and I think we will get there, and we'll get there pretty quickly. I think that eventually AI is coming from all for all of us, except for certain service jobs. Like I guess we would still like to interact with actual humans. I don't know in restaurants, go to McDonald's reacting out with the computer. Yeah, but that's not a fancy risk. I anyway, I think
it's time. So before we go to pics, is there anything else gonna that you would like to say that you didn't get around to say about this thing?
Let me see my notes. No, I think we're all right.
I I haven't didn't get a chance to talk about the downfall of humanity and how.
It all started with social media. But outside of that not, Yeah, I think we're all called end of that, Gunnar.
If people want to get in touch with you, In case you actually want people to get in touch with you, how should they go about it?
You have LinkedIn probably i EX or LinkedIn Gunner w B either either one of those.
If you want to chat, I'm happy to debate.
My points on AI and product management with anybody it's out there.
Just don't ask me questions about code. Not I think we should go to pics.
Then, right, Steve, Right, let's do it. So I will start today and get the high point of the of the broadcasts right here, and then we'll just sort of slide down hill from there, the high point being the dad jokes of the week. So when I interviewed my current place of employment, my interview asked me what makes you a good fit for this position? And I said, I broke into your system and scheduled this interview myself.
Right.
I decided that, you know, having that latent desire for fame and fortune, that if I ever start a band, I'm going to call it day job. So when people say, don't quit your day job, I can reply thanks. We practice a lot, and then finally my son is now at the age where he's curious about the human body. I guess I'll have to hide it somewhere else.
Now I got one for you, Steve. What's that my family's favorite dad joke? What did Pardikus do when the lion ate his wife? I know this one, tell me nothing. He was Gladiator?
Gladiator? I knew it, dang it. I've used that one before Gladiator. And what's the song is that? My son listens song called Gladiator and we always make cannibal jokes about that one.
I still the dad joke that you told that I still like. The best is the one about the half brother?
All right?
Oh, yes, my dad was a magician. So I just have half brothers now or something?
No, it was.
I have a half brother. Oh is does he have a different mother? No?
He met a shark. Yeah that's right. That is so good.
And I'll throw out a couple of titles to some I guess you want to call them anti ai a blog posts that somebody else had brought up work lately. One is called I will I think pile drive you if you mentioned AI again, it's from about a year ago.
Pretty funny and one thing that we didn't talk about AI with a little bit, and maybe this is included in your part about the dawnfall of humanity later, Gunner, there's a document called the Hater's Guide to the AI bubble is the money involved, the losses that a lot of these companies are taking simply because of the computing resources that are required in terms of energy, in terms of servers power. It's just insane.
If there's an energy crisis in the world. A alternatively, if China invades Taiwan, then AI will be delayed significantly.
In either case, bitcoin bitcoin probably burns through more than anybody else, and that thing is.
What it does too. You're right, but sure they suck power like nothing.
Yeah, but with bitcoin, when the power cost goes up, then bitcoin money stops. And the point is exactly that that if the if the cost goes up or the chip availability goes down, that would put a significant break on on AI.
So anyway, that's enough of my ranting, Dan, What do you got for picks anything?
Okay, I'm going to So I was I surprisingly enjoyed the show that I guess I wasn't supposed to enjoy. It's on Netflix. It's called WWE Unreal. It's it's a behind the scene look at the WWE. Now, obviously this is not a sport. This is a show. This is kind of like a soap opera with people throwing each
other around, and it's literally interesting. It's it's kind of interesting to see how the sausage is made behind the scene, how they you know, beat each other up and then hug each other behind because they're close friends or stuff like that.
And some of the most like.
Supposedly violent people are actually very you know, nice homely type people behind the scene. Obviously they're all kind of fed in the head to be doing that, but it's still interesting. The other kind of interesting pick that I have so it's it's a show worth watching even if
you're not into wrestling, in my opinion. The other thing is is, as I was searching for it, Google, instead of just providing me with the link to either the Netflix show or to the IMDb section about it, just gave me an overview of it from its ai, which is the fact that you know, we are a podcast talking about you know, using JavaScript ostensibly to build websites, and people are visiting websites a lot less than they used to because they're getting their results from Google itself directly.
And I'm you know, thinking about the point in time again, unless energy costs go up through the roof, where instead of actually being served some existing website, Google might generate custom website dynamically on the fly for you based on the query that you with it. I think we're on the way there again, unless it becomes too expensive to do so, I guess those would be my pick for today.
Yeah, I don't even It's very rare that I Google anymore. I most always use aii chat et.
Yeah, well, Googling these days is AI because nine times out of ten you get the answer.
F I'm just saying like themes where I go to chat GBT and I ask my question, so I don't get a bunch of garbage result, I just get the answer I want. I have a Google thing in my kitchen. I ask a question, it always gives me like a paragraph and the answer with like forty two. It's like, I don't need the paragraph, I just need forty two.
The paragraph for the answer to everything.
Then yeah, yeah, it's way too much, all right, So I'm supposed to picks here I did give you. I put a link in our chat. So white people are called cognitive empathy. And it's actually talking about the issue that you guys mentioned earlier, which is that AI will always agree with even.
When you're wrong.
And it's an interesting documents on GitHub to read about this problem and how AI will I think, adapt change over time to stop always a green and actually have a sense its own stance. Not necessarily political, but when it comes to something that's scientifically code that it would actually say the best way.
Hitler was actually a good person.
My gosh, I'm glad that's coming from someone who lives in Israel.
Anyway, I did one as a joke with my kid. I'm like one plus I proved to my kid that one plus one is three, and I just wanted to see how it respond to that, and the fact that it tried to like give me every option it could be like why you might say that, well, because it's synergy and businesses like to use this term like and I said, no, you should just tell me one plus one is two like I'm I'm wrong. And so this cognitive paper is really interesting one. But it's called cognitive empathy.
It's a short read. It's like a ten minute reading to look at it. What other things?
I don't know. You said a show? I'm up. I just got done watching season two of Netflix's Tires Shane Jane Gillis.
Yeah, that guy is like he's got a direct line to my funny bone.
I love that guy.
He does the best Trump impression I've ever seen. Good, whether you like him or hate him, just the hand, the voice, the mannerisms, the hand movements, even with the wig on it.
That's so funny.
He's so good at it.
Yeah, he did kill Tony and Madison Square. Yes, was dying watching that thing. Uh, something of that. I'll end with kind of what we talked about this whole time.
I encourage anyone listening to check out the cure ok I r dot dev id. It's an interesting one. And then you know, you guys, check out cloud code if you're using cursor. If I was still stuck using curser, I'd probably be as mad at ai as some of the comments of her today. Uh, clod code is what actually brought me to the next page. Or I'm like, hey, look a I can write half decent code. It's a pretty big jump. So yeah, give back you can get
you know, seventy trial or whatever. It's like twenty bucks. I do them.
I'm actually using at work.
I'm using a cursor with Claude four Sonnet okay, and I'm getting fun probably the more results because yeah, it's all cloud for it so and for Sonnet thinking whatever that means.
Cool. Well, thanks for having me on.
So just for a reference for Kiro is the new aws UI ide that uses AI and we will be having Eric Canshit from ABS or the DevRel been on here multiple times before to talk exactly about that topic about four weeks from this recording. Not sure when this will have come out, but we will be discussing that in detail.
Okay, thank you very much Gunner for jumping on. I know that you have to drop off about right now, so it was very informative and I very much was happy to catch up with you and talk about all this stuff.
Yes, thanks everybody for listening to job scrip drabber and we'll talk at you next time.