Will Trump invade Europe next?

it is three minutes after ten a very good morning for you can we can we um can we not do this again can i not the first message i've seen this morning i mean thank you fiona it's a lovely sentiment but can we not begin the new year with the words daddy's home appearing in my uh in my text inbox please i mean i quite like the sentiment but i i don't know i i'm not sure that i like the

The delivery. I'm just making a little list, not a Christmas list, obviously, although I hope you had a lovely one, of things that are sort of floating around in my... mental orbit this morning as we prepare to address the extraordinary events with regard to the USA and

Venezuela. I'll start with four and there are prizes galore on offer for anybody who can explain why all four of these people are in my thoughts this morning. But I shall explain why. The first is Yuval Noah Harari, whose geopolitical writings... Well, in fact, it's essentially... Commentary on humanity itself has been one of the great joys of the last 10 years to discover. The second is Mario Puzo, who is, I think...

probably up there for most people, whether they know his name or not, as the man responsible for some of the finest entertainments of our time. The third is Juan Orlando Hernandez, who you may not have heard of or you probably hadn't heard of. until relatively recently, unless you follow matters South and Central American very, very closely. He perhaps is, at first glance, the most significant character in this cast. And the fourth is Fiona Hill.

You will remember Fiona Hill, the daughter of a Durham coal miner and a guest on one of my favorite episodes of Full Disclosure who ended up working at the highest level in Donald Trump's first White House. Why are those four people in... my thoughts this morning. Do you think? Shall we try and work our way through it? Yuval Noah Harari wrote, and I read this to you at the time in April of last year, about Donald Trump creating a world of rival fortresses.

The surprising thing about Donald Trump's policies, he wrote, is that people are still surprised by them. Headlines express shock and disbelief whenever Trump assaults another pillar of the global liberal order. At the time, the best example was his support for Russia's claims for Ukrainian territory or his contemplation of the forced annexation of Greenland or the unleashing of financial chaos with his tariff announcements. And you...

have to sort of recognize that there is nothing surprising anymore about what he does. And sadly, there is nothing surprising about the desperate contortions undertaken by the people who love his moral corruption, who love his disgusting attitude. and behaviours to defend his latest conduct. Because I don't know today, let's start where we ended last year, I don't know who has rendered themselves more ridiculous in their attempts to defend Donald Trump. It is either.

Nigel Farage, who you probably have heard of, or a chap called Richard Littlejohn, who writes columns in the Daily Mail. They have scaled, frankly, extraordinary heights of absurdity in their inability. to criticise Donald Trump even as the evidence... of his awfulness, well, even as all of his critics are proved completely and eternally right about everything. If you are built a certain way, if your psychology is sufficiently flawed, you can never climb down from a position that you've adopted.

you end up having to defend everything, up to and including, presumably, whatever it is in the Epstein files that he remains so desperate to keep secret that he's ended up invading a foreign sovereign country.

almost on the day actually that he was required to produce the goods or to lift the final sort of limits on those disclosures so Yuval Noah Harari has like many people but he perhaps expresses himself best, been calling this out for years and been pointing it out and been describing every single facet, every aspect of it in beautiful, almost poetic terms.

And on it goes, the annexation of Venezuela, effectively. Mario Puzo. All right, probably the least obvious character on this list. Mario Puzo. as you probably know, is the author of The Godfather. I watched the first two, the only two really, Godfather films over the holiday period and was reminded of two things. both of which came into very sharp focus when Donald Trump illegally invaded Venezuela. The first was, and kidnapped the president,

The first was, you know, I nearly said then, you know, no one's going to mourn much for the passing of Maduro's political career, but you don't do that. That way madness lies. You are not allowed to invade foreign countries and kidnap the president.

It doesn't matter how awful he is. It doesn't matter whether or not he tortures... kittens or pulls the wings off butterflies it does not none of it matters you just don't do it any more than you pardon people just to jump ahead slightly who are serving 45 year sentences for trafficking cocaine while president of

foreign countries. It's just not allowed. So you don't caveat your support for international law by saying, well, you know, this time, you know, well, the guy they broke international law for, he was a bit of a wrong. That's not how law works. Right?

You don't, for example, say, well, do you know what? If the police want to kick down someone's door and string him up from the nearest lamppost because they know he's a wrong and even though they haven't been able to prove it in a court of law, then that's all right. I'll look the other way. And do you know why this matters? do i have to explain because next time it could be you that's all

Next time it could be your country that gets illegally invaded because the president says it's the right thing to do or because they have decided that the leader of your country is a wrong one. One newspaper today has Greenland on its front page. A possibility of Greenland. European territory being next. Well, what is it that the leader of Greenland has done that constitutes justification for an epic breach of international law? I'll wait. So...

The idiots, and I use the word very kindly, the idiots trying to defend what Donald Trump has done are ignoring several things, not least, of course, international law. But Mario Puzo, and it makes the second volume of the movie this. Pre-revolutionary Cuba. There's also a brilliant book. The name of the author.

It might be Rachel Kushner called Telex from Cuba or Telex from Havana. It's a brilliant book. I often find, as you know, fiction is a really helpful guide through facts, particularly through history. But if you take them in conjunction with each other. Watching Godfather 2 and thinking about pre-revolutionary Cuba, there's a scene, I'm pretty sure, I may have slightly misremembered it, but Hyman Roth, who's...

I don't want to do spoilers, even though the book's been out for the best part of 50 years, if no more than 50 years, actually. But Heimeroth is a major character. And a big player in the illegal gambling prostitution scene, which is the focus of enormous American interests in pre-revolutionary Cuba. So if you like your legitimate businesses, they had sugar sewn up. bit of oil as well actually but essentially the country was like a

It was like a farm, a money farm for American interests, both legal and illegal. The legal would be handling the sugar trade. The illegal would be handling the gambling and the prostitution and quite possibly narcotics as well. And Hyman Roth is talking to Michael Corleone and dreams of the day when they have somebody in the White House who is as sympathetic to their ambitions.

as the then president of Cuba was. I mean, he wasn't actually long for this world, Batista, at the time that the film is set and the revolution occurs during the passage of the story. But the point was that they had a president in place in Cuba who would let them... do whatever they wanted so sitting around the table you have the oil companies and the sugar companies but you also have the mafiosi they give him a golden telephone

That also resonated with me. When you think of the gifts that people have been handing to Donald Trump over the last couple of years, they give the president of Cuba the incredibly corrupt, incredibly venal, incredibly greedy, unbelievably self-interested. President of Cuba, a golden telephone. And he passes it around. But the point is that sitting around the table are vested interests of epic wealth who have in their pocket a president who will do whatever they want.

So I found myself thinking about that a little bit because Hyman Roth says shortly afterwards, imagine when we get this from the White House. Imagine when we have our guy in the White House.

And he is going to be as sympathetic to our causes as the guy that we've now got in charge in Cuba. And then I was reminded of a... comment Donald Trump made it when he was still in campaign mode, inviting $1 billion worth of donations from the oil companies upon the promise that he'd give them something brilliant.

and he's now giving them Venezuela. So that was point two. That's Yuval Noah Harari describing what the world was going to look like when you had rival fortresses, when the rules-based order had gone out of the window, and when there was an essentially accepted... reality under which you can do whatever the hell you want if you're strong enough.

No one will be cheering louder this week than Vladimir Putin and Xi, the Chinese leader, because they are being told that their tactics, whether it is in Ukraine, actually, or Taiwan, potentially, their tactics are not only... going to be given a green light or going to be ignored by the US, but the US is now pursuing identical policy positions. So that's the world that we inhabit.

And then the lesson from history, pre-revolutionary Cuba, and the dreams of vested interests, whether legal or illegal.

of actually having governments who act entirely and exclusively in the interests of wealth, not in the interests of the people in the country. Then you've got what for me is probably the biggest card in this deck. You've got a chap called Juan Orlando Hernandez, a former president of Honduras. He was, until very recently, just getting stuck into a 45-year sentence for cocaine trafficking. So you're going to hear the phrase narco-terrorism.

You're going to hear the idea that Maduro, the deposed Venezuelan president, was involved in the drug trade. Probably true. Irrelevant to the importance of international law.

But you're going to hear that a lot as a rationale from the idiots, as we're going to be calling them all year, from the idiots, from the Trump apologists, from the fascist adjacent commentators. They're going to be pretending that this is all... In fact, one guy in the Mail, Richard Littlejohn in the Daily Mail, tries to compare...

this to the people smuggling gangs crossing the English Channel. You write an entire page without mentioning the former president of Honduras who was serving a 45-year sentence for cocaine trafficking. Until Donald Trump pardoned him. Imagine writing an entire page of words about your fever dream, your weird fetishistic fantasy that Donald Trump is such a tough guy.

that he is going to whip everybody into shape because he's doing it for the right reasons. He's doing it for moral reasons. He's clamping down on drug traffickers. Imagine writing that for your readers, all 11 of them, without mentioning that he gave a pardon to a former president.

of Honduras who was literally convicted in a literal American court of cocaine trafficking received a 45 year sentence so it doesn't matter how far you bend backwards, it doesn't matter how Gordian the knot is that you tie yourself into, you cannot possibly justify on any imaginable level what Donald Trump has done in Venezuela. if you acknowledge the existence of Juan Orlando Hernandez. You just can't do it.

You can't even begin to pretend that you're not completely corrupt, dishonest, intellectually bankrupt if you acknowledge his existence. So the only way you can do this is by not acknowledging his existence. It's a bit like John Cleese and the Second World War.

in that seminal episode of Fawlty Towers, don't mention the Honduran president. We can pretend that Donald Trump's not all of the things that his critics, old Trump derangement syndrome people, have told us that he is. He's not riding roughshod over international law. He's not riding roughshod over... He's not...

probably focusing on Greenland next. He's none of those things. He's not a sort of fascistic despot in embryonic form. He's none of those things. And we can pretend that we can pretend we can pretend just don't mention the guy he gave the pardon to. Answers on a postcard, please, as to why he would give a pardon to a former Honduran president serving a 45-year sentence for cocaine trafficking. You might find the answer to that in Mario Puzo's work. So that's piece number three.

And then piece number four is Fiona Hill. The, um... The brilliant, I don't know how you describe her, I mean, academic, civil servant, Russia expert, and her memories, which she shared with Congress when Trump was being impeached. You can't make this stuff up, can you? Her memories of... of the first Trump administration's plans, if you like, for Venezuela.

The idea that there is anything surprising about what has happened or anything admirable, decent, or indeed to be welcomed. Fiona Hill was there. during the first administration and described not only the ambitions to do it, for the oil, first, second, third, for the oil.

and what was likely to follow. We're going back to 2019 when Fiona Hill... former US ambassador to Ukraine, testified to Congress that Russia was signaling very strongly that they wanted to somehow make some very strange swap agreement between Venezuela and Ukraine. In other words, the US could have Venezuela if we let Russia have Ukraine. The suggestion being the price for letting the US go after Venezuela without any protest was and will be Ukraine.

It was also suggested that Taiwan may already be on the table as a bargaining chip with China in order to secure its acquiescence to further US regional hegemony in the Americas. So that's why Nigel Farage is the other contender for stupidest. observer of the week, him claiming that this will somehow upset the leaders of China.

and Russia. Donald Trump behaving just like the leaders of China and Russia will really put the heebie-jeebies on the leaders of China and Russia, says the daftest man in British politics. So I'll leave you to decide who is stupidest. The Daily Mail columnist writing peons of praise to Donald Trump without mentioning the existence of the actual cocaine trafficker he pardoned just months into a 45-year sentence or the politician claiming that Donald Trump

Trump is going to scare men like Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping by behaving exactly like Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping. What I want you to tell me is what our leader should be doing. That's it.

You now understand what is going on. I mean, however much you've been swallowing your granddad's Daily Mail regurgitations or listening to people who haven't got a clue about what is really going on and care even less or whether or not you just haven't really been properly engaged.

now know exactly what is going on. There is your trademarked J-O-B guide to the invasion of Venezuela, the deposing of the president via Yuval Noah Harari, Mario Puzo, Juan Orlando Hernandez and Fiona Hill with a few little tiny contributions. So where the hell does that leave Keir Starmer? Genuinely, where does it leave Keir Starmer? Donald Trump is behaving like a medieval monarch, an empire.

a completely corrupt dictator, a Putin, a Xi Jinping. He is behaving with utter disregard, with contempt for democratic norms and international law. Spoiler alert, Keir Starmer knows this. Keir Starmer understands this better than almost anybody in Britain because this was his profession at one point. Keir Starmer and everybody in his inner circle fully understand the gravity, the awfulness, the depravity of what Donald Trump is doing.

But that doesn't mean he can say so. It really doesn't mean he can say so. It's almost like a Faustian pact or some sort of Greek tragedy what's happened to Keir Starmer. He's got a touch of the sort of... Sunaks to it. You dream of power and then when you get it, it's absolutely awful. He has to go to bed tonight. He had to go to bed last night knowing that what Donald Trump has done is objectively disgusting. Criminal.

internationally I mean he's a 34 time felon you know the man incited an insurrection lied tried to steal an election no one can be surprised by what he's doing But Keir Starmer knows. Keir Starmer gets it inside out. He's not pretending for professional reasons like the Daily Mail columnist who kind of has to because he's climbed so far up Trump's backside he can't get down again without getting vertigo.

He doesn't have to pretend for professional reasons that Trump is anything other than an election-stealing, insurrection-inciting. Sued a woman, of course, for libel who accused him of rape and lost. Make of that what you will. Boasts about his own... sexual offending, of course, in what Nigel Farage describes as locker room talk. Keir Starmer knows exactly what he is. Always has done, always will do. But what can he do? What can he do?

03456060973. Donald Trump is making almost all of George Orwell's predictions about the West come true in real time on television. that the idea, just pause for a minute, and you can't complain about the length of this introduction because I've been off for two weeks and you know what happens. Just think for a second about the front page of the Daily Telegraph this morning, which literally, and I know it's a bit of a comic.

on the comment pages, but the news pages and the foreign editing is still pretty strong. Trump sets sights on Greenland. It's 2025. The President of the United States of America is openly coveting sovereign European territory and minded to deploy precisely the same illegal tactics to annex it that he has just done in Venezuela. You've got Daily Mail columnists so bent morally, intellectually, I don't know.

What other ways that they're trying to defend it? You've got UK politicians like Nigel Farage almost trying to praise it. You've got a prime minister of the United Kingdom who is too terrified of the consequences to criticise it or even to describe it accurately. And you've got, I mean, I don't know what else you've got. You've probably got people trying to turn this into a problem.

the leftists in the Labour Party who liked Chavez, it's all their fault, or that's what Keir Starmer really should be worrying about. It's all there. Those are the facts. This is the only analysis you need. Those are the simple facts of the matter. It's 2025 and the President of the United States of America... 2026! Ticks!

So at least we don't write checks anymore. Number of pizzas I bought in early January when I was a student with a year out of date check. It's 2026. I'm going to write that down in front of me in very big letters. Thank you, Keith. You've already earned your crust for this year. 2026.

And the President of the United States of America is openly coveting sovereign European territory. His cheerleaders in this country are queuing up to praise his illegal invasion of a foreign country, his installation of the deputy of the man he's got rid of, which tells you exactly how concerned... he was about the nature of the regime that was in place. The money was just flowing in the wrong direction. And our prime minister has to decide how to play this.

There's no debate about what I've just described, by the way. There's no, oh, what do you think of the invasion? Are you in favor or against international law? That's cowardice. That's the conversation of quizlings. That's like talking about... Hitler going into Sudetenland or talking about who was right, Neville Chamberlain or Winston Churchill. That's madness. That's the way of cowards and traitors. Trump is disgusting.

Trump is now doing on the world stage what you would expect the worst kind of. corrupt dictator to do and he's doing it in plain sight he's doing it in full knowledge that some of the people that cheered him into the white house are so invested that they can never climb down from the ludicrous positions they've adopted the job of the rest of us

is to respond to that reality, not to question whether it's real or not, but to respond to that reality. And the job of Keir Starmer is to do it soon and to do it well. And I don't know what it is that he would do. 0345 6060 973. How does Keir Starmer play a scenario? like this 27 minutes after 10 all bets are off how does Keir Starmer handle it 0345 6060 973 Michael is in Kensington Michael what would you like to say so I

It's real strange talking about what Keir Starmer should do because I'm not British, but I've lived here for almost 20 years and I love this country and escaped from the United States. I was a previously proud American. And now I'm just mortified at what's going on. I don't know what Keir should do in specifics. No, of course. But I know that my own father... would say to me, I may not leave you with anything, but I will leave you with a good name. And if you don't have a moral ethical stand.

for what you do, you're damned. So I just, you know when you're watching a movie and you see the villain who has tricked the protagonist to do something and you're like, don't do it, don't do it. Don't go that way. And everybody keeps saying Trump is doing this. Trump is doing that. Trump is weakened at Bernie's being propped up. He can barely stay awake.

through his own press conferences. This isn't Trump. He doesn't know who he's pardoning. He doesn't know. He's literally, I mean, Ronald Reagan had full-blown Alzheimer's. and was president for two years during that. This guy isn't in charge. It's the Stephen Millers, it's the... the heritage foundation project 2025 and they've told us exactly what they were going to do and now and now they are doing it so if you don't do it well okay two things don't do it

Three things. The first is, I was quite pleased that I managed to bring Godfather 2 into this analysis, but I bow to you. I bow to you for bringing Weekend at Bernie's into it. That's a stone-cold victory this morning. May I bring up one thing? Yeah, of course you might. Okay. This is obviously because, and I'm so happy you brought up Fiona Hill, because this goes way back to Ukraine and Russia. I just always don't understand why nobody has picked up.

on the fact that when Trump ran the first time, the singular piece of the Republican platform that changed. which had nothing to do with LGBTQ, had nothing to do with the economy, had nothing to do with drugs. The singular point that was changed in the Republican platform was the stance on Ukraine. and whether aid was going to be guaranteed or not. This has been going on since then.

And everything is tied to everything. And it's in plain sight. And I don't fully understand why some people who have paid for their opinions can't see the nose on their own faces, let alone the nose on Donald Trump's face. And I love what you say. And that idea and remembering your father's comments about a good name, it reminded me slightly of The Crucible, actually, Arthur Miller's play, which, as you know, is a massive allegory for the McCarthyite witch hunts. But Starmer is a lawyer.

And lawyers are not... morally binary creatures lawyers have to defend killers lawyers have to defend people they can't go to the place where they think they may be guilty the pragmatism that kicks in is a huge strength of our legal system it means everybody has the right to a fair trial And that sort of pragmatism means, I suspect, that Starmer won't think he is able to simply stand up and, you know, damn the consequences.

Tell the truth and shame the devil. I forget exactly what the phrase is. I mean, honestly, Michael, can a politician do that? Can a weak, and he's not weak on a personal level, but a weakened politician because of Brexit, because of the end of empire, because of the...

host Suez settlement, whatever reason you want. The UK is not Royal Britannia anymore. Can Keir Starmer really? I mean, the only leaders really that could do this would either be heading up the entire European Union or running Russia or China. No? Okay. Let's bring up old movies. Love Actually. How good did everybody feel when the prime minister was like, no way, US. No way. Don't.

But what do you think happened the next morning? The law is obviously clear. Yes. I like that. And, you know, we'll get Hugh Grant on speed dial. And, yeah, look, my heart agrees with you. And it may be that my head should. But at the moment, I think my sympathies, for want of a better word, would lie with the impossibility of Keir Starmer's situation rather than... the incredibly seductive, but I think you'd agree, quite simplistic notion that he should just tell the truth and shame the devil.

Can he? Can he? I mean, maybe Michael's asked a better question than I have. It's not what should Keir Starmer do. It's should he do that? Should he just damn the consequences and do what he knows to be right? 0345 6060 973 is the number you need. It's 10.32. Dominic Ellis has your headlines. 10.35 is the time. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC.

I find myself, because you know I never go out, I find myself in a slightly odd position of having given an award to the sort of de facto Venezuelan opposition leader. I had the great privilege, the great honor. of awarding her a Magnitsky Award, Maria Corina Machado, who is the international figurehead of the Venezuelan opposition. She collected a Nobel Peace Prize last month. But prior to that, she received a Magnitsky Award, which I have.

the honor of presenting every year. And you might have expected her to be at the forefront of Donald Trump's thoughts. Two things on this, because they really matter. I wish they didn't, but they do. The first is that he appeared to dismiss the prospect of involving her in any transition of power. So Maduro effectively, successfully stole an election, unlike Donald Trump, who tried to steal an election and failed.

And the successor to the man widely believed to have actually won it, Edmundo Gonzalez, has essentially already been frozen out by Trump. describing her as a very nice woman but saying it would be tough for her to lead the nation because she did not have the quotes respect within or the support within the country. Nobel Peace Prize winner. Donald Trump casting aspersions upon her suitability to lead. And then you learn from the Washington Post this morning.

that people within the White House, two people close to the White House, have told the Washington Post that the president's lack of interest in boosting her stemmed from her decision to accept the Nobel Peace Prize. when he so obviously wanted it. And you have to hope this is hokum, right?

But look me in the eye and tell me that you can't possibly believe it to be true, that Donald Trump would literally defy the democratic will of the Venezuelan people, because that would mean giving power to the woman who had the audacity to accept the Nobel Peace Prize that he thought he should have received. I mean, she actually dedicated the award to Trump. But one of the people speaking to The Washington Post describes her acceptance of the prize as the ultimate sin.

in his eyes if she had turned it down and said i can't accept it because it's donald trump's she'd be the president of venezuela today i don't know That's just something else on the long, long list of things that people blowing smoke up Donald Trump's backside have to pretend have never happened and continue to completely ignore. But Keir Starmer can't.

He can't pretend it hasn't happened, and he can't completely ignore it. So what on earth should he do? Apart, perhaps, from going full Hugh Grant at the end of Love Actually. Chris is in Fife. Chris, what would you like to say? Happy New Year, James. Please, please don't make it be too interesting.

25 anymore. We've got at least three more years of this. Please don't make it four. Really, I can't. Slow it down. Yeah, absolutely. What should Keir Starmer do? He should... Stand for what he always says he stood for, which is international law and rights and all that. He should publicly tell everyone in this country and all of our allies that the US is no longer our friend. It's no longer our ally. It doesn't stand.

for what we believe it always stood for, what it did for all your life, all my life. He should stand with Greenland and the EU. He should stand for international law and the UN Charter that says you can't go around. In raiding people, deposing people. Or even American law, because this would need the consent of Congress to be legal. Yeah, but he hasn't bothered with American law much in the past 12 months.

Well, he does keep breaking it, but I take your point on an international stage. He hasn't been in court for that. By bother, I mean impinge any of his actions. The problem is that nobody's going to stop him. He knows that he's untouchable. Putin and China and Russia, they love this kind of thing. Keir Starmer knows because he's in a bind. We are not powerful. We are impotent. We have nothing.

We cannot impose sanctions on anybody. We've proved that we have no moral backbone in the last year or two. We've proved this in the Middle East. We've proved it in many places. And I don't see where he's going to get his backbone from now. So what should he do?

stand for his professed beliefs. He should stand for the fact that the United Kingdom, British values, the old thing of British values, what are they? Well, I always thought they were standing for law, standing for the UN Charter that we helped. to right-standing for the European Convention. And so, I mean, is there any defence in the... I mean, we'll probably take it live if it fits into our scheduling, but the line around this morning that...

We need to find out more. We need to wait and see. I mean, I can't quite... Yeah, you're laughing. But, I mean, not least because you just bring Juan Orlando Hernandez into the picture and you can't possibly say, oh, no, we had the right to do... You've just pardoned the guy who did the thing... things that you're accusing Maduro of. You literally just pardoned him. Yeah, I last night looked up Trump's answer to a question on December 2nd, or the day after he pardoned Orlando.

saying, just because there's drug traffickers, you can't make the president be in charge of all that. It's not his fault that somebody did bad things. And it's brilliant. in the level of hypocrisy. And now if you asked him what he said on December 2nd, of course he would just say, I never said that. I don't know what you're talking about. I've never met that man. That was his first defence against the pardon. I don't know what you're talking about. Never heard of him.

Well, I mean, you know, it could be true, of course. As Michael in Kensington reminded us, there's a touch of Weekend at Bernie's about it with the forces behind him, the kind of latter-day equivalents of all the people sitting around the table in pre-revolutionary Cuba towards the end of Godfather II. 100%. But do we know what the consequences would be? Because I'm looking at what Mark Carney has done. I think when I ask questions about Keir Starmer...

I always find myself wondering what Mark Carney has done, you know? It's like the old T-shirt, what would Jesus do? Replacing it, what would Mark Carney do? I think Jesus...

would give his money to the poor and not have cryptocurrency to get the money for himself. But that's different. But Carney has spoken and he has said, he's referred to the lady I was just talking about who... I gave that award to in 2024. I spoke with Maria Corina Machado today.

I affirmed Canada's support for a peaceful Venezuelan-led transition of power, one that respects the democratic will of the Venezuelan people. So Trump has already made it clear that he does neither of those things. He has rubbished her publicly and he has put... the deputy of the man that he's deposed in power.

We could sit here for hours coming up with a game plan or explaining why or what that means. It doesn't really matter. It means he doesn't have a problem with the established regime. It is just almost certainly that the money it was harvesting from its own corruption was flowing in the wrong direction. um from trump's point of view and by putting the deputy in charge and you know i'm no expert in these fields no expert in any fields as i prove to you on a daily basis

I can't quite see how you get to depose a president without some help from inside the building or from inside the administration. You literally even physically wouldn't know where he was. And so there it is. Mark Carney essentially allying himself with the de facto leader, democratic leader of Venezuela.

condemning in terms what Trump is actually doing because it ain't no Venezuelan-led transition of power. He's literally stated that he or they will effectively be running the place and he is categorically not respecting the democratic will of the Venezuelan people.

How much more evidence do you need? So why, to evolve our question slightly, why can't Keir Starmer do what Mark Carney has done? Even in relatively diplomatic language, he is... supporting the opposite of what Trump is doing and endorsing a woman that Trump has already...

publicly denigrated, the de facto successor to the de facto winner of the last Venezuelan election. Thank you, Chris. Andrew's in Montana, in case anybody needs a little... guide in in the united states uh andrew what would you like to say um everyone ahead of me has really kind of covered the bases i wanted to cover but as you were talking just recently i kind of thought well why doesn't the un and the uk

send down their own troops. This is a crazy idea, but send down the troops to ensure there is a peaceful succession of power. Because we know that's not going to happen under Trump. He's boldly said he won't let that happen either way. I don't think that will happen. I don't think Keir Starmer has any real right decision because unless there's actual physical doffage of the Trump regime, they'll just keep going and going. There's nothing that will stop it.

So what you do effectively is cite the possibility, and I fully accept you said it ain't going to happen, but you're talking about NATO. or even European troops on the ground against the US president in a way that they haven't been able to do against the Russian president? Something that I would just wish the rest of the world would stand up to my own president, because I'm...

tired of this. I'm not the only person who is. It's not going to happen. And so I guess my question that I would pose to you instead of asking what should Keir Starmer do, what is going to stop this? I don't know. What action would stop this?

I don't know. And I don't think anyone has an idea of what will. And that's what scares me the most. Yeah, I hadn't thought of it in those terms. I mean, even a cursory reading. of the national security strategy that came out towards the end of last year makes it clear that NATO and Europe are the real problems from Trump's point of view or from Trump's people's point of view.

thirst for empire and riches. The big obstacles to that would be NATO and Europe, not Russia, not traditional enemies. China barely mentioned. It's people protesting outside abortion clinics in Scotland that are apparently the real enemy. of freedom and the American way. But if he does, and this is why the headline that probably should be even more front and centre, although rare credit to the Daily Telegraph for sticking it right across the front of page one.

Trump sets sights on Greenland. So all the idiots will be pretending that there's a rationale for doing this because Maduro was so awful or because drugs were being... pumped into the United States and they have to ignore the fact that he gave a pardon to a bloke who was serving 45 years for literally presiding over precisely that kind of trafficking. They can just about knock themselves up on that.

If he did it in Greenland, then what happens? Then your prospect becomes more plausible, doesn't it? Not if, when is going to be my question to you then. When they move to Greenland. What should be the response then? Not if, when. Yeah. We do need Greenland. Absolutely, he told the Atlantic magazine, adding that the Danish territory was surrounded by Russian...

and Chinese ships. So he will pretend, and this perhaps provides the answer to the question of what the idiots will do, what the Daily Mail columnists and the Reform UK politicians will do, is that they will pretend that it somehow...

helps protect the West from Russia and China. I don't know. But yeah, I mean, I hope you're wrong, but I'm not going to put any money on you being wrong when you say when, not if. Remember when people used to say, don't worry about what he says, just worry about what he does. And they've gone very quiet now. The same as the people who used to use the phrase Trump derangement syndrome as a pejorative. He's invading foreign countries. He's deposing foreign leaders. He is taking over.

for himself and announcing to the American oil industry that all the oil in Venezuela is now effectively theirs. And he's setting his sights on Greenland, sovereign European territory. But hey, everyone just needs to chill out. Everyone just needs to relax. Oh, do you know why I like him? Because he upsets all the right people. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, good luck with that.

It is 10 to 11. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I suppose the answer to almost every question that attempts to frame this as something less... awful or less significant than it clearly is, would be, okay, then imagine it was Greenland. So, you know, there will be plenty of Venezuelan people both in the country and outside it who welcome the removal of Maduro. They'll be very nonplussed by the replacement of Maduro with his own deputy.

Very nonplussed. In fact, I saw some analysis yesterday suggesting that they thought Donald Trump might have misspoken when he denigrated the reputation of the sort of de facto opposition leader in Venezuela, Maria. Karina Machado, who I think is either, she's in either exile or under house arrest. But they should not be surprised by this. So you can answer the question, okay, why are so many Venezuelan people celebrating? Answer, because they don't like Maduro.

quite rightly, and because they think that this will be what Mark Carney is calling for, a Venezuelan-led transition of power. But it won't. And then you're left with the question, OK, what if it's Greenland next? And that's not even an exaggeration. I still have that thing. Is it like a human condition? Do you have it? You suggest something enormous and there's like a safety catch in your own brain that starts going, no, don't be silly.

So I'm literally looking at an interview with Donald Trump, who as long ago as 2019 made his ambitions to steal all the oil from Venezuela crystal clear. It came up in the impeachment hearings in 2019, thanks to Fiona Hill. And I'm literally looking at his own words in an interview in which he talks about needing Greenland. We do need Greenland, absolutely. In the same way that Vladimir Putin needs Ukraine to protect himself from...

You know, the Faragist lies that the Kremlin sponsored propaganda about being worried about NATO or being worried about having Europe on his doorstep. Complete lies. A justification of the unjustifiable. Donald Trump is... It's not just excusing Vladimir Putin or facilitating Vladimir Putin. He is literally borrowing his playbook. We need Greenland to protect ourselves from... From Russia?

He's never done a single thing in his entire life that upset Vladimir Putin. And if he were to invade Greenland, you can be 100% sure Putin wouldn't have a particular problem with it. So... If you're trying, and I've mentioned one Daily Mail columnist, Richard Littlejohn, who is trying, bless him, to pretend that this is anything other than egregious, anything other than hideous, then you have to answer two questions.

You have to answer two very, very simple questions. What if it's Greenland next? And if that's too complicated for your tiny little brain, then you have to account for the pardon given to the Honduran leader. Juan Orlando Hernandez, who was in the middle of, well, not even in the middle of, in the foothills of a 45-year sentence for cocaine trafficking. I love Donald Trump. He's smashing the gangs. If only Keir Starmer could be so ruthless.

Would you mind taking a moment out of your morning sunbathing to explain why he gave a pardon to the former Honduran president who was serving 45 years in a US jail for actual cocaine trafficking? Could you do that? Or would that be a little bit too much for you? Yeah. So Fiona Hill predicted it. Juan Orlando Hernandez makes a complete mockery of any rationale for it. Yuval Noah Harari explained it.

And Mario Puzo foreshadowed it in The Blinking Godfather. All of which makes the question of what on earth should Keir Starmer do altogether harder. Until you look at what Mark Carney... I'm going to put Mark Carney as name five on my little list this morning. Mark Carney has done more than Keir Starmer. He hasn't said, oh, we need to wait and see. He hasn't condemned the illegality of the invasion, but he has essentially endorsed from afar.

the de facto leader of the opposition, Maria Corina Machado, winner of last year's Nobel Peace Prize and the previous year's Magnitsky Award for Outstanding Opposition Leader. He has effectively allied himself with her.

And Keir Starmer hasn't even done that. It's beginning to look like he does have a case to answer. Nicholas is in Beckenham. Nicholas, what would you like to say? Good morning. Hello. Right. I think everybody's kind of covered it off. I've got the best callers in the business, but you have to rise to the challenge, not just take the credit for what they've already said, Nicholas. OK, well, so in terms of what does Keir Starmer do?

Keir Starmer needs to actually look at the reality of it. Like you said, Trump has put out there everything that he wants to do, everything he's going to do, and he's gone and done it. You ask, is Denmark next? Absolutely it is. They're all flexing. These have all been tests. This is a small test. It's Venezuela. Who cares? Flex, see what the national response is, move on to the next one. If you think about what he's done in terms of currying favor around the world, I mean...

He's best buddies with Saudi Arabia. They're going to look after the Middle East and Africa, probably. He's looked over to the Far East. He went to meet Kim Jong-un, realized he's a bit of a wrong-un, and has now sidled back with the Chinese. And you've got his friends now in South America, Argentina and the like, who are saying, yeah, we agree with everything that you're doing.

What's left, the question mark, is Europe. What are Europe going to do? Well, Kyrgyzstan, we're out of Europe effectively. We're not really going to be telling them what they should be doing. But we do need to have a serious conversation as to this is real. This is happening. This is next.

I don't think there's anything stopping us from moving in lockstep with Europe, albeit that we wouldn't have a seat at the table, as it were, and we wouldn't be leading. I mean, I think Starmer and to an extent Boris Johnson assumed... I have assumed some sort of... perceived leadership role in the context of Ukraine. So it's not impossible. It's not leadership in a traditional sense, but they've certainly been front and centre in support for Ukraine.

endeavors together and all that stuff. I get that, but... Ultimately, somebody... No, we lost that. You just used a naughty word, so Keith dumped it. He's like a ninja. He's like a ninja. I think in the circumstances it's excusable, but sadly Ofcom doesn't see it the same way. Sorry, sorry. Sorry. Anyway, anybody that knows me knows that they're every other word these days anyway. Me too, actually. So, yeah.

I get the feeling that what's going to happen now is he's going to go after Greenland. We're going to say, well, Denmark's going to go, you can't do that. Mark Carney's saying what he did this morning. Who cares? It's Canada.

You know, they're not going to do anything. Well, I care in the context of there is a world leader who is showing what more Keir Starmer could do. We need to check out what Ursula von der Leyen has done. But it's not going to make any difference. No, because why would it? Might is right. Might is right.

This takes us back to Yuval Noah Harari. It's just become a world of fortresses. And the American fortress, through no effort on Trump's part whatsoever, as with everything in life, it's all landed in his lap. It's entirely inherited. But America's might and America's... heft and America's importance on the world stage. gives a corrupt leader extraordinarily untrammeled powers. Nobody really, up to and including the founding fathers, perceived, or conceived, forgive me, of...

circumstances in which a US president would do this. There are cases for arguing that US presidents have behaved similarly in the past, but they've done so covertly. They might have sent the CIA in to effect a little bit of regime change. You're not supposed to do it live on Fox News. then boast about it and then ride roughshod over all of the traditional defences of your actions. So he is doing it. Why? Because he can and because he wants to.

And nothing else matters. Nothing else ever has, nothing else ever will. Why is he doing it? Because he can and because he wants to. And the only role that the rest of the world can play is on problem one. They can create a circumstance in which he can't do it. But as Nicholas reminds us, it's very hard to imagine what that circumstance might be. So Mark Carney can do what he's doing, which involves going further than Keir Starmer has managed to do. But can they stop him?

from doing whatever he wants to do. And there, as a consequence of having the finest callers in the world, there is the question. There is where we've been led. Can anybody stop Donald Trump from doing whatever he wants to do next?

That is the world in which Kirstama is operating. That is the question under which he is governing. This country, is there anything? I mean, tariffs? Like a taster, an aperitif, if you like, of blowing up the world order, even against his own country's interests, or at least against the interests of normal people in his own country. But who's ever going to stop him?

Ursula von der Leyen, who I mentioned a moment ago, has said that we are following very closely the situation in Venezuela. We stand by the people of Venezuela and support a peaceful and a democratic transition. But you're not going to get one. She also says any solution must respect international law and the UN Charter. Yeah, so what if it doesn't? Arguably, barely even arguably, international law's already been blown to pieces.

The UN Charter is in tatters, so what if it doesn't? What if Trump's annexation of Venezuela and theft of Venezuelan oil is in obvious and direct breach of international law and the UN Charter? He is looking at Ursula von der Leyen. He is stroking his chin and he is saying, what are you going to do about it? Three minutes after 11 is the time you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC, where we will inevitably, I think you'll agree, continue to try to make some sense of events.

In Venezuela and beyond, the U.S. scrambling to justify their intervention as a legal act. You just heard a shadow politician there in the news. bulletin suggesting that we wait until they have had a go at justifying it or laying out these charges of narco terrorism and cocaine importation. No mention of fentanyl, of course, which is the rationale given for blowing up boats with no evidence. of wrongdoing by their occupants in the sea between the two countries.

And, of course, no mention of Juan Orlando Hernandez, the former Honduran president, serving a 45-year sentence for literally cocaine trafficking, who received a full pardon from Donald Trump about 10 minutes ago. That's a figure of speech. It was late last year. Those are the two questions you ask anybody. Anybody at all. Because this isn't, again, one of those mornings where you have a debate. It's a weird thing for a phone-in host to say.

We're not having a debate. There is no debate about the rights and the wrongs, the good and the bad. There is no justification for it. If you really want to argue that there is, then you have to tell me why he pardoned Juan Orlando Hernandez and what happens when he invades Greenland. If, if he invades Greenland, which he has said that he wants to do or annex it. Because anything, any desperate, mealy-mouthed, pathetic, morally bankrupt attempt to justify what he's doing now falls apart.

If you can't explain why he pardoned a bloke who's done all the things that Maduro is accused of, or what would happen if he were to do to Greenland what he's just done to Venezuela? Essentially annex it and... take all of their resources, take all of their minerals. In Venezuela's case, oil. In Greenland's case, all manner of extremely valuable.

natural resources and if they can't answer those two questions then they should be shying the door unfortunately in this country they'll be invited onto question time and given full pages of national newspapers to vent their ignorant spleen but those are the two questions that you need

Let's have a little look at what some other foreign leaders have said. The Foreign Minister of Norway. International law is universal and binding for all states. The American intervention in Venezuela is not in accordance with international law. Ah, man alive, it happens. Those little moments where you just go, yeah, this is real. Of course it's not in accordance with international law. But here's an op-ed.

Here's a column. Here's a commentator. Here's a member of Kemi Badenoch's busted flush of a shadow cabinet. Here's a member of Keir Starmer's cowering cabinet to pretend that it might be. To pretend, oh, we'd better wait and see. International law is universal and binding for all states. Well, we can think off the top of our heads of a couple of states with whom international law isn't binding at all. The kind of states that undertake...

illegal invasions of other countries or indeed genocides. They don't seem to be bound by international law. But the United States of America, historically, is a counterbalance to those sort of states, as opposed to a staunch ally, which is the world we live in now. The American intervention in Venezuela, says the Norwegian foreign minister, Espen Barthida.

is not in accordance with international law. A peaceful transition to democratic rule is the only viable path in Venezuela. Donald Trump has announced that they are in charge now, and the puppet leader will be the deputy of the bloke that they've just kidnapped. If that sounds like a democratic transition to you, then I have a bridge that you might be interested in purchasing.

Final sentence from the Foreign Minister of Norway. This requires inclusive political processes that respect the rights of the population. The population have told you what they want. Essentially, they want... the opposition leader, the de facto opposition leader to be in charge. Donald Trump has already publicly insulted her and close allies of Donald Trump are telling the Washington Post that the reason why he doesn't want her to be president is because she accepted the Nobel Peace Prize.

that he thought should be rightfully his. Again, those little moments. So you've got the Norwegian Foreign Minister describing a breach of international law in a world where it needs to be stated. Not in a world where everybody knows it is. Give me a ring and tell me why it isn't. Give me a ring and tell me why it's not a breach of international... So that's one moment where you just stop and go, what?

And then of course, the other moment is where you look at the likelihood of a peaceful transition. We're in charge now. And the deputy of the man he's deposed for being so awful is currently... their choice for puppet president. Prime Minister of Slovakia, Robert Fico, the US military action in Venezuela is further evidence of the breakdown of the world order created after World War II.

I think that's a simple statement of fact, something that will be cheered and celebrated by precisely no regimes in Europe except Vladimir Putin's. And of course, there are politicians in this country who make no secret of their admiration for Vladimir Putin, or indeed, detestation of the post-World War II.

Politicians who, for example, spent their school days claiming that Hitler was right and making jokes about gas chambers to their Jewish school friends. Those kind of people probably would welcome a collapse of the post-World War II settlement. President of Brazil.

The bombings on Venezuelan territory and the capture of its president cross an unacceptable line. These acts represent a grave affront to Venezuela's sovereignty and yet another extremely dangerous precedent for the entire international community. predecessor, of course, tried to steal an election.

and failed, which is something he has in common with Donald Trump. Attacking countries in flagrant violation of international law is the first step towards a world of violence, chaos and instability, where the law of the strongest prevails over multilateralism.

So many, many foreign leaders are finding rather more oomph. than Keir Starmer has managed to find, because this is what Keir Starmer has to say. I want to establish the facts first. I want to speak to President Trump. I want Trump. I want to speak to allies. I can be absolutely clear that we were not involved. And I always say and believe we should all uphold international law, Starmer said in a statement to British broadcasters, which is, at the very least, a little bit wet.

Isn't it? Isn't it? I don't know. I don't want to spend 2026. adding to the voices condemning Keir Starmer without justification, but I absolutely don't want to become a voice that fails to condemn Keir Starmer with justification. Let me read you this from Aussie. I'm a vehement defender of Keir Starmer right from the start.

as he's been unfairly criticised every step of the way while he's just been getting on with the Herculean job he inherited. But this is one of those moments when I disagree with his tact and his response to Trump's latest despicable act. This is an act where diplomacy is out of the window and you need to scream from the rooftops your disapproval and disappointment over the annexation of Venezuela. Democracy itself is in serious danger and if the right...

call isn't made by those who should be holding Trump to account, and that democracy still remains the best form of government. It will be difficult to defend democracy, let alone unravel all the lawless acts committed by the current US government. And again, if we add a little list to the, another sort of little factor to the list that we're assembling together today, he tried to steal an election. Maduro succeeded.

They both tried to steal elections. They both tried to overturn the unquestionable and unquestioned results of democratic elections. Maduro succeeded and Trump failed. The idea that Donald Trump has started 2026 as a champion of a democracy, of a champion of democracy, a concept he despises. is, again, for the birds and one or two Daily Mail columnists. Oh yeah, we love Trump because he sticks up for democracy.

Apart from that time, he tried to steal an election and incited an actual insurrection against his own seat of government. Oh, and sent a baying mob after the blood of his own vice president. Yeah, he really upholds. He's doing it because democracy really matters. Who is again?

The bloke who tried to nick an election? Yeah, him. He really cares about democracy. Oh, and he hates drug traffickers, especially when they're presidents. Except when he's pardoning them. You see what I mean? About the planets aligning. Trump derangement syndrome, this is called. Remember that. So, yes, he really cares about democracy, except when he's trying to steal the election in his own country.

Full stop, new paragraph. He hates drug traffickers, especially when they're presidents of nearby countries. He just pardoned the former president of Honduras who was serving 45 years for cocaine trafficking. Well, don't worry about what he says. Just focus on what he does. OK, he did those things. And now he says he's going to go after Greenland next. I don't know how many callers I have in Denmark or indeed in Greenland.

But if I have any, I would love to know how this moment is being reported and responded to in your countries. 0345 6060973. You don't have to be there. necessarily it'd be great if you are you could just be from there and therefore much more closely allied with the news agenda and the political climate in in your home country of Denmark or in Greenland, and you'll be able to tell the rest of us what is going on. 0345 6060 973.

is the number that you need. And speaking of people who will be more closely allied with the news agenda in the countries where they live, Simon Marks will join us at about 11.45 to give us a quick steer through how this is all going down. at home in America and indeed what it means. Let's go to Prague in the Czech Republic. Antwi is there. Antwi, what would you like to say?

Hey, James, thank you very much for having me. First of all, a big fan. I've been listening to LBC for years. As you can hear from my accent, I'm from Philly, from Philadelphia, from the U.S. So you're Welsh. So anyway. Yeah, expert on accents. I thought so. So anyway, about President Trump, we all need to understand that this is real. What we say, African-Americans in the States, we say that this was a stick up.

Basically, he stuck up Venezuela for the oil. He and the craziest thing about it is that in the past, the presidents, they always had a modest hop around. I'm not saying it out loud. Right. they always had something in the background like weapons of mass destruction for iraq or something like that here all the everything is removed like all the filters are off all the masks are off they're telling it as it is

And it's crazy because, indeed, nobody knows what to do now. There is nothing that can stop this guy. There's nothing that can stop Trump from going down for Greenland.

And we know for a fact that it might really happen because Venezuela was not like an easy thing to pull off. Right. Like he even kidnapped. And this is one thing that I also want to mention. The media in the US or all around the world says that they... Why don't they say it out loud that it was a kidnapping? I mean, Maduro, like, I'm not on the side of Maduro at all. No, of course. He's a terrible dictator.

He's done terrible things. Eight million Venezuelans had to basically immigrate from the country because of him. But what's the precedent now? Let's put it on like figuring out what if China thinks Trump, we don't like the way Trump is behaving. So let's send our commando to kidnap Trump and trial him in China. Is that the precedent that we have now in the world? Well, it's because what you're doing...

And I know that you know that you're doing this, but it's worth me pointing it out for people who are just tuning in. You're almost fondly imagining a world of equality, a world where international law doesn't take into account the size of your country, the size of your economy. or the size of your army, the rules either apply or they don't apply. So what Donald Trump is doing could obviously not be done by almost any other country in the world, except arguably Russia and China.

And they, therefore, will be watching this with absolute glee. I'm going to frighten the life out of you, if I may, Antwi. I've got a little bit more of the transcript from the evidence that Fiona Hill gave to Congress in 2019 with regard to Trump's... one of Trump's impeachments. And the language is even more stark than the clip I found earlier when she is talking about what they knew.

with regard to the relationship between Venezuela and Russia, or between Venezuela and Ukraine on one side, and Russia and the United States on the other. And she describes the Russian signaling publicly through the press. but also privately. And this was her job to watch this and to be aware of all of this stuff. And essentially, the message that Russia was sending to Donald Trump's first White House was this. I'm quoting Fiona Hill.

you stay out of Ukraine or you move out of Ukraine, you change your position on Ukraine, and you know we'll rethink where we are with Venezuela. Yes, quid pro quo.

It's that! Yeah, exactly. And that's crazy to think that in the background, all the cars are now being opened. Just basically, let me derail a little bit. I don't want to derail too far away. Jack Smith, the U.S. attorney, basically had a hearing. I don't know if it was the Senate of Congress.

They released it on the 1st of January to make sure that nobody sees it or hears about it. He confirmed that all the things that basically they had prepared would put... trump in jail like everything that was prepared although they had a case he had a case that would if it succeeded have seen have seen trump go to jail this is the epstein stuff Exactly. And then lo and behold, he invades Venezuela 24 hours or so later. Thank you. Thank you. No, thank you.

So basically, that's all I have to say to this. That's all you need to say. I mean, it is all there. And some days, I don't know, as the year passes or the months tick past, you begin to think, what's the point of pointing it all out when it is so obvious? But it is because it is so obvious that it is so...

important. And when you see the efforts put in to pretending otherwise, to either lying or being too stupid to notice what's in front of you, then those of us in the business of laying it out there have to work even harder. So there's one line from Fiona Hill, you change your position on Ukraine. And, you know, we'll rethink where we are with Venezuela. She goes on. I went to Moscow. It wasn't this is this is Trump's key Russia adviser.

It wasn't a classified trip because I was going to meet with Russians. And in the course of those discussions, it was also apparent, including with a Russian think tank and other members, that the Russian government was interested in having a discussion about Venezuela. and Ukraine. Do you feel that Ukraine today is more or less supported than it was when Joe Biden was in the White House by the United States of America? Do you feel

that the US position on Ukraine has changed since Donald Trump became president? Yeah, of course you do. And which way has it changed? Well... It seems to be a lot warmer towards Vladimir Putin and a lot colder towards the man that he insulted in the Oval Office than it was when Joe Biden was president. So if Russia is saying to America...

Change your position on Ukraine and we'll rethink where we are with Venezuela in 2019. And then the United States changes its position on Ukraine. And then the United States... annexes Venezuela, I don't think you need to be a conspiracy theorist to join those particular dots.

It is 11.21 and this is the testimony given by Fiona Hill to the congressional testimony, her congressional testimony as part of the impeachment inquiry into Donald Trump in October of 2019. Add to the sense of wonder that anybody in the UK would still be seeking to defend what Donald Trump has done. Here is a question put to her.

Did you state earlier that there was a nexus between Rudy Giuliani associates and Venezuela? To which Fiona Hill replied, I was told by the directors working on the Western Hemisphere. I was told that. by the directors working on the Western Hemisphere. I didn't have a chance to look into this in any way.

And now this is the bit I want you to listen to. I was told that the same individuals who had been indicted had been interested at different points in energy investments in Venezuela and that this was quite well known. So that would be sort of some of Trump's closest associates were interested in energy investments in Venezuela. And we know that Russia was saying, if you step back a bit from supporting Ukraine, then we'll...

change our policy towards your designs upon Venezuela. This is here. This is in congressional testimony. And I think it arguably gets a bit worse, although bits of this are redacted. Fiona Hill talking again. In the course of my discussions with colleagues, and their names are redacted, I also found out that there were Ukrainian energy interests that had been in the mix in Venezuelan energy sectors. as well as the names again.

Some of these are redacted as well. Talking about guys who were notorious in Florida and that they were bad news. So I no longer feel that I was necessarily stretching things a bit when I brought Mario Puzo into the mix at 10 o'clock this morning. energy interests, Florida people who are notoriously bad news.

Russia saying, nice country you got there. Be a shame if something happened to it. To Ukraine. Trump saying to Venezuela, nice little setup you got there. Be a shame if somebody happened to it. What happened to it? Well, they got rid of their head man and replaced them with somebody who they consider will be a lot more sympathetic to their interests. No democratic transition, no role for the Venezuelan people particularly in this process.

Why is he doing it? Why do you think he's doing it? Because he wants to and because he can. Why does he want to? Because he and people close to him will benefit personally from it. Full stop, next question. Which is...

What on earth does Keir Starmer do in this situation? And if you're in Denmark or indeed Greenland, then what is going on? How is this playing out where you are? 0345 6060973. Ruth is in Toronto. Ruth, what would you like to say? I'd like to say that Mr. Trump started this whole thing on putting on terrorists, for instance, on Canada, because of all the drugs flowing from Canada, which is absolutely...

Crazy. There's next to nothing coming. But that was his claim. Yes, exactly. That was his claim. All right. And then he suggested Canada should just join the U.S. and be the 51st state. However, we don't need anything that Canada has. I've got to tell you something. You're worried about Greenland? Be worried about Canada. Be worried about Canada. Really? You would say that? Oh, sir.

You believe me. I do believe you, but you understand our capacity to be shocked is stretched at the moment because our front page has Greenland as being in his sights. He has said that he quite likes the idea of annexing Canada as well.

If we've learned anything in the last 12 months, it's that he rarely says anything he doesn't mean. Of course. And of course, although I... I do believe he respects Mr. Carney, and of course most of the people that advise Mr. Trump worked for Mr. Carney when he was at Goldman Sachs, etc. But... This is a man who says Canada has nothing we need. Canada has gold, nickel, copper, zinc, potassium, uranium, oil, gas. We are one of the most mineral-rich countries in the world.

besides the fact that we have two-thirds of the world's fresh potable water. You know, let's not be so naive. If they had stopped, Russia went into the Crimea. there wouldn't have been Ukraine if they had stopped. They can stop him with Venezuela. Then whatever comes next wouldn't come next. I mean, that's a really brilliant point, that, about Crimea, actually. And, I mean, the world in which...

It feels fanciful to look at the leader of the United States and the leader of Russia through exactly the same lens of self-interest and corruption. That world is over.

isn't it? So I mean, how widespread in Canadian media or among the Canadian public are the fears that you're articulating? Because I mean, you understand why I asked about Greenland, but I'm interested to know. how deep these concerns go in Canada. Well, I'm not going to say there's a lot in the media at this time. It's all spoken.

between people. I have a brother who was once in the Canadian military and he has already said, I'll pick up a rifle again. And I have a brother who's a pacifist who said, He's not coming across any bridges into this country without me having something to do about it. I mean, people, Canadians are getting, Canadians are already saying, you know, we have more people applying to be in the military than we have for a long, long, long time.

And you know. Yeah, no, I mean, I think even six months ago, certainly two years ago, well, one year ago, just prior to the second inauguration. probably would have in a slightly patronizing but i hope not misogynistic fashion i probably would have urged you to calm down a bit but i can't do that today because of what has happened and what he has said will happen next. And yet, of course, the idea that this is anything other than egregious and illegal.

continues to gain traction among both commentators and politicians here. I don't know what the Canadian equivalent is. I look forward to talking to you again. 28 minutes after 11 is the time. I've got a caller in Jutland, actually, in Denmark, but we'll take that first after the news. Simon Marks.

Remember, he'll be joining us at about 11.45. I have got a missed information for you, which is kind of relevant to what we're talking about, that there is a political position. And I know that you know this, but I don't know that it is. ever something that can be explained or repeated too often, that there is only really one conflict at the heart of democratic politics. And it's the conflict between wealth.

and everybody else. There is a reason why St. Paul wrote that the love of money, not money, but the love of money is the root of all evil. So when you have people whose pursuit of rewards, whose pursuit of money is utterly, utterly...

dominant. Nothing else matters. A, you understand the existence of people like that. You understand the existence of politics and behaviors like Trump's. But it happens on a tiny level as well. So something as innocuous as sticking VAT on private school fees because it feels like an assault upon wealth. And the one thing you must never do is question or query or in any way control wealth.

untrammeled wealth. That's why our right-wing media, in fact, the Venn diagram between journalists in this country who are comfortable or were comfortable with Trump, the honest ones, of course, will be waking up finally now. if they haven't already, and passionately opposed to a VAT on private school fees for a relatively tiny proportion of the population, will be exactly the same people.

But we now have the numbers with regards to what VAT and private school fees have done. And despite the best attempts of the Mail on Sunday yesterday to pretend otherwise, the numbers make more or less a complete mockery. of the predictions of imminent doom and horror. So I feel that a missed information on those facts and statistics may be in order before home time today. But first, Dominic Ellis is here with your headlines.

It is 33 minutes after 11. You keep me up to speed and no one's capable of keeping up to date with everything, but a remarkable article. which perhaps explains his animosity towards NPR, National Public Radio, that has been forwarded to me, just detailing some of the other drug dealers that Donald Trump has pardoned.

since becoming president for the second time. So while he promises to attack drug gangs and the lemmings among his support pretend to believe or genuinely are so stupid that they do believe that his opposition to... Drug trafficking is real. Just don't mention the former Honduran president serving 45 years for trafficking cocaine who Donald Trump pardoned. We'll also have to completely ignore...

all of the other domestic drug dealers, gangsters and sundry other criminals that he has pardoned since becoming president for the second time as well. I mean, hand on heart, how surprised would you be? if it were to emerge at some point in the long and distant future, that it didn't really matter what you'd been sent to jail for. If you could oil the right wheels.

with Donald Trump in the White House, then you could have your sentence commuted or you could receive a pardon. 1,500 people that undertook a violent insurrection in an attempt to steal an election got pardons. But here we are, sticking up for democracy and law and order.

I ask for callers who could provide a Danish perspective. Jonathan is there in Jutland. Jonathan, what can you tell us? Hi, James. Welcome back. And a Happy New Year, I think. I'm not quite sure anymore. It's up to us, isn't it? It's as happy as we make it. Go on.

How is all of this being greeted and reported in Denmark? Appallingly, people are really angry and frustrated. They're not confused because we've been seeing this. likely to come but we didn't actually believe it all his rhetoric and sort of saber sort of rattling as he's always done but I think last night he said Denmark and Greenland

we'll actually see in a couple of months. I think people are starting to believe it and are really angry about it. I took my car in for a service this morning and people were talking about it. We then went to the vets for our cockapoo's annual. I thought I'd mention yours and mine. There we go. Yeah, you've got to bring them in.

And the older vet was saying to me, yeah, you're from England? I said, yeah. He said, what's it like? I said, fine, you know, what people are like talking about Trump. He said, don't you mention Trump. People are just angry about him, but also... Fearful. So they believe that... For me, the front page of the Telegraph focuses the mind. It shouldn't because the newspaper is edited by absolute halfwits. But it's the quotes from the Atlantic magazine that are the point.

not the decision to stick it on the front page of a UK. We do need Greenland, absolutely. We need it for defence. That bit's a lie, of course. Yeah, we think he needs it for the oil and actually minerals, don't we? Yes, of course he does. Of course. Of course. It's obvious. It's obvious. I can't quite believe we're having this conversation. Can you? I can't quite believe it's 2025. We're talking about a US president having designs upon 2026, 2026, 2026, 2026.

2026, 2026, 2026. There we go. And we're talking about a US administration having designs upon sovereign European territory. Even worse, it's actually NATO protected. Because Greenland's part of... And then we track back to the national security statement at the end of last year, which made it clear that NATO is no longer a shared or no longer has a shared interest with Donald Trump.

Trump's administration, NATO and Europe now treated with a much colder shoulder than Russia or China are. I come back to that question. I can't quite believe that we're having this conversation at the beginning of 2026.

Can I put in the first possible conspiracy theory? Yeah, go on then. Epstein. Why has he done what he's done now? Well, there's two points to this. Number one, it's not a conspiracy theory, because the timing works. And he is obviously desperate, having campaigned on a promise, not a frequent or a very loud promise, but certainly a widespread perception that he would release everything.

for reasons, in quotes, he can't or won't. And the timing is suspicious because the dates upon which all bets were supposed to be off. coincided almost entirely with the invasion of Venezuela. But it's what Fiona Hill has said about Ukraine and Venezuela, Russia and the US that undermines that dead cat being...

entirely invented just to distract from Epstein. They obviously have always wanted to do this. The reason to do it now may have something to do with the Epstein papers, but it didn't create the desire to do it, Jonathan, is all that I'm saying. No, I agree with that, but because they've been practicing, as it were, for their invasion for four months.

but maybe they brought it forward slightly because of what's been going on. We'd certainly need to dominate the news agenda with something other than the fact that the man who promised to release all the Epstein papers is still refusing to release all the Epstein papers. And the one element... of us media or the one thing that proves he hasn't yet managed to bring it completely into line and to turn it into an into cogs in his propaganda wheels is is that one story um

Thank you, Jonathan. I may speak to you again. I may need your Danish perspective a little more in the coming days, months, probably not years. It's probably going to be sooner rather than later that we find out the seriousness of... This claim, this statement, which was made last night.

And then you've got Katie Miller. I presume you know this, but a lot of my listeners won't. Katie Miller, the wife of Stephen Miller, widely perceived as the most sinister and influential member of Trump's inner circle. Deputy Chief of Staff, posted on social media an image showing the map of Greenland painted with the US flag and captioned soon.

Again, I can't... It's got that little weird thing in my brain, like a kind of bimetallic strip that clicks when it gets too hot. I think I've remembered what bimetallic clicks do from my GCSE physics.

But it's just, it clicked, you know, like it gets a bit warm and it clicks. You think, no, you can't do that. That can't be true. The wife of the deputy chief of staff, the really sinister bloke who everybody credits with being... kind of Project 2025 made flesh, posting a picture of Greenland, a map of Greenland, painted in the colours of the stars and stripes and captioned with the word, soon.

Sovereign European territory. Ah, man. Marianne is in Slough. Marianne, what made you pick up the phone? Oh, hi, Danes. Well, because you were asking for, like, Danes. either abroad or back in Denmark. And I'm Danish and I've lived in the UK for more than 30 years. And I just feel like this is surreal.

And I'm angry and I'm frustrated and I'm kind of worried as well because I would not put it past him at all to go into Greenland. And if he can't, if he doesn't actually put... boots on the ground and go into Greenland and he might just use some of his tech throws to try and you know, cut back a Danish digital society. Just hurt it in other ways. I mean, it's part of... It's Danish territory, for people who don't know, and therefore part of the NATO alliance. But...

you know, if we learned anything last year, it was that these guys hate NATO. Yeah. But, you know, the interesting thing, James, is that, you know, in 1945, after the end of the Second World War, the U.S. actually had 17 military bases. in Greenland and thousands of soldiers. But they have just been, you know, scaling it back and scaling it back and scaling it back. So now they have one and maybe like, I don't know, a couple of hundred soldiers. But they have every right to have soldiers.

in Greenland. All they have to do is have a discussion with Denmark and Greenland about it. That's what NATO does, of course it is. If you're worried about Russian expansionism, genuinely worried about it, then it becomes a NATO matter, not a matter for an independent. in the United States acting in direct contravention of what NATO wants and approves. I believe so therefore the whole security issue is just like it's just like it's just wrong you know it's just a total lie.

It's unreasonable. Well, there it is. I mean, just the same as Maduro. drug trafficking being the reason for his removal, then we can simply point at the case of Juan Orlando Hernandez literally getting pardoned for exactly the crime that Maduro is now accused of. So pointing out the lies is sort of comforting because it reminds you that you're not going mad. but it doesn't really move the needle. I don't know what question to ask you about.

what the conversation is like in Denmark. So I'm going to ask you a very lazy and simplistic one. On a scale of... And maybe you can only answer it from your own perspective as well. I can't expect you to speak for the entire country. But on a scale of 1 to 10, how... How plausible do these territorial ambitions feel to you? That when, you know, if you factor in Trump's interview with The Atlantic, Stephen Miller's wife's hideous social media posts.

Your prime minister, the prime minister of Greenland, not Denmark, saying yesterday that Trump's administration was disrespectful and that the territory was not for sale. It doesn't feel like... A lot of sound and fury signifying nothing. If I forced you to put on a scale of 1 to 10 how worried you are about Trump's designs on Greenland, what would you say?

I would have said three. Yeah. If you ask me now and I can't speak for the whole of the famous people, of course, I'd say nine. Wow. And I don't, I very, very, very much doubt that you're in a minority or that that's an unrepresentative position because he has done it to a country with lots of natural resources. And he has said he wants to do it too.

parts of your territory, parts of Europe. And here we are now. I wonder if, I mean, should we give a prize to the first person who still uses the phrase Trump derangement syndrome to describe those of us? who have been predicting and describing exactly what is now happening in real time. I don't know what the prize would be, a big wooden spoon perhaps? How do you do it?

And I know I started the program with it and I keep circling back to it, but it is the experience of the Honduran, former Honduran president. that speaks to the absolute indefensibility of what Trump has done. And it is the testimony given to Congress by Fiona Hill in 2019 that speaks to the absolute corruption. She laid it out. Vladimir Putin says, hey, give us a break on Ukraine and we'll let you go into Venezuela. He effectively says that.

So the only way you can resist this analysis is by arguing that Donald Trump hasn't changed the United States approach to Ukraine. And we ended last year. asking what you thought the most significant moment of 2025 was. Actually, we didn't. I did that on a podcast with other people, but I stole the idea and asked you on the final day of the show, the final show that we did together.

What was the most significant moment? And I asked the colleagues upstairs, most of whom are younger than me, which I always think is interesting. It's not necessarily important. And there was no debate. There's literally no debate. Tom Sawbrick's producers, my producer, everybody sitting around the table all answered. It was the Oval Office. It was when Zelensky was in the Oval Office. That changes everything.

To have the President of the United States and his ludicrous coterie of cronies and sycophants attack Volodymyr Zelensky, attack him on live television in the most vulgar and vicious of terms. Why did they do that? Well, if you now know that Vladimir Putin had let it be known that were the United States position on Ukraine to change visibly and notably. then Russia's position on the United States helping itself to Venezuela would also change visibly and noticeably. You can probably trace.

What happened in Venezuela this week? Back to what happened in the Oval Office that day. Kanye? I might run that theory by Simon Marks, among other things, after this. It is 11.49. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. The questions continue and they ain't going anywhere soon, I don't think. Simon Marks is. You must be heading back to...

The state's ready. Heading back tomorrow. Tomorrow indeed. Can hardly wait. Do you remember the last time I sat in this chair in 2025? Yes. And the last thing you asked me was, what did I think was going to happen in 2026? Yes. And the only thing I was able to do was let out a deep sigh. And here we are. Now you know. January the 5th, and he's invaded Venezuela. We just checked our times. I think that the former deputy to Maduro...

the man whose regime was so awful that Donald Trump had to remove it. The former deputy to Maduro is about to be sworn in as president, we think, at 12 noon GMT, which is 8 a.m. It looks like that's 8 in the morning in Caracas, yeah. Absolutely. So not so much regime change as changing the head of the regime and hoping that you can now essentially force.

Delcy Rodriguez to her knees because you've got this blockade of oil tankers. I see that a substantial number of Venezuelan sanctioned oil tankers have departed, reportedly. departed port all at once in what seems to be a bit of a group effort to try and evade President Trump's self-described armada that is, he says, besieging the Venezuelan nation.

You know, look, if the British government, as Mike Tapp suggested on LBC this morning, is waiting for Donald Trump to offer up a explanation of the legal justification for what he's done. before they think they're going to be able to opine on whether it was or not legal.

They're in for a very long wait because they have no legal justification for what they've done. And the one that was furnished by Marco Rubio over the weekend has sort of immediately been flattened by Donald Trump. Marco Rubio arguing this was...

kinetic action that was only designed to remove a fugitive wanted in the United States. This wasn't an act of war and insisting that there wasn't going to be any kind of full-scale occupation of Venezuela. But let's take a listen to what Donald Trump said. Donald Trump said on Air Force One last night as he once again insisted the United States is running the country. Don't ask me who's in charge because I'll give you an answer and it'll be very controversial. What does that mean?

We're in charge. We're in charge. We're in charge by which they appear to be seriously indicating that they are simply going to put the thumbscrews on Delcy Rodriguez as soon as she's sworn in and becomes the country's new leader officially and force her to bend to their will. But what happens if, as is highly likely, she refuses to do exactly what Donald Trump wants? I mean, there are reports that there have been discussions mediated by the Qataris and that Delsey Rodriguez is.

indicated some willingness previously to work with the United States in a post-Maduro environment. But, you know, he wants absolute control of Venezuela's oil industry. Force One last night. Listen to this. Venezuela right now is a dead country. We have to bring it back and we're going to have to have big investments by the oil companies to bring back the infrastructure. And the oil companies are ready to go.

They're going to go in, they're going to rebuild the infrastructure. You know, we built it to start off with many years ago. They took it away. You can't do that. You can't do that with me. They did it with other presidents. And notice not a word about democracy, about elections. And there is growing evidence that one of the reasons why he is not interested in putting Maria Carina Machado, getting her back into Venezuela, first of all, demand. Thank you.

irregularities to prevent them from taking power. So he successfully stole an election. Right, exactly. And growing evidence... No wonder Donald Trump hates him. And growing evidence that the reason why... he's not backing Maria Karina Machado is because she pipped him to the post for the Nobel Peace Prize. Accepted it. Had the audacity to accept it. I saw that in the Washington Post, this line.

If she'd said, I can't accept this because it rightfully belongs to Donald Trump. She'd be back in Caracas this morning. Absolutely. It's unbelievable. Well, it is and it isn't. How many times have we said that to each other? We've got the same look on our faces. We might be a year older, but my goodness me, the song remains the same. It's unbelievable, but it's happening. And he isn't finished yet. Again on Air Force One last night. Take a listen to what he said.

direct threats to at least one of Venezuela's neighbours. Venezuela is very sick. Colombia is very sick too, run by a sick man who likes making cocaine and selling it to the United States. And he's not going to be doing it very long, let me tell you. And he went on also to make fresh threats to Cuba. He even threatened Mexico. He is absolutely serious about forcing Latin American governments to bend to his will. He's also serious again on their...

Of course, one, I'm not going to play the audio, but he again made fresh threats to Greenland. Even as you know, the Danish prime minister was pushing back and saying, don't even think about it. He is deadly serious about Greenland and it all goes back. To what Fiona Hill was testifying about in that congressional hearing and what she has been saying relentlessly over the past six plus years, which is that what Donald Trump wants is to be seen as a strong man.

alongside Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping, carving up the world and developing absolutely clear spheres of influence for the United States, for Russia and for China. and everybody else is just going to have to fend for themselves. I mean, I hesitate to mention it, but I suppose, given his position in the polls, that people deserve to be reminded that Nigel Farage either pretended to believe or genuinely believes that the two men you've just mentioned...

Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin will somehow be cowed or concerned by Donald Trump. I know, don't laugh out loud. He's a very important politician, Simon, but that's what he has been claiming. on social media and presumably elsewhere as well. A position of such epic stupidity that you have to presume it's dishonest rather than simply stupid. Well, especially given the fact that at the very moment that he was typing it...

trebles were being poured in the Kremlin and in Beijing all round to celebrate a set of circumstances that neither the Chinese or the Russians could ever have dreamt they would be confronting at the start of the year. I'm going to play you a clip, actually, which doesn't happen very often, but Natasha Clark.

our political editor, has been with Keir Starmer this morning and managed to get in a specific question about Greenland. The future of Greenland is for Greenland and the Kingdom of Denmark. And it's for Greenland and the Kingdom of Denmark only. Denmark is a close ally of the United Kingdom in Europe and a close ally in NATO. And so it's very important we stand by our ally and very clear.

about the future of greenland and that's your message to donald trump as well when you speak to him next it's my consistent message in relation to greenland and so that's not a new position it is the future for greenland is for greenland and the kingdom of denmark They are a European ally, they're a NATO ally, and we stand with Denmark on this.

You're leaving aside the question of what he could be doing differently or whether or not he should be sounding a little bit more robust. How... Can I use the phrase US media anymore? Well, no, not really. I mean, it's an interesting question in and of itself. No, not really. Right. Because, of course, it's not a single media in any sense, and it is increasingly a pro-Trump media. I thought it was notable yesterday.

that Marco Rubio had a very combative interview with Margaret Brennan on CBS. And as you know, CBS is increasingly now, and has to be seen as, a pro-Trump network. And even there, he had an... extremely rough ride, and it all got quite intemperate at one point where she was asking why on earth they'd left the regime in power but only removed Maduro, which of course is, you know, a breathtaking question. I mean, I think...

Look, Americans are not in large measure being presented with coverage that is asking the same questions that we are all asking about. Why is it that in his press conference on Saturday he referred to oil?

and oil companies 40 separate times. And it was the first thing he went to when he was asked about the future of Venezuela. Never, I think, used the word democracy. Or drugs. Brushed away the... Well, I mean, of course, now this... notion that it was all about drugs you know it seems like it's distant in our rearview mirror tell the daily mail that they're adamant this is exactly the reason why they're doing it and also no no

commitment whatsoever to fresh elections in the country. Is that the bit that surprises you the most? I mean, surprise isn't quite the right word, but you sort of think the bits that you thought they might not have to... audacity to attempt would be the regime reshuffle rather than the regime change i think it tells you exactly what donald trump is trying to achieve in venezuela he wants the resources he wants the oil

He wants the business. That is his main desire. And he thinks he's going to get a better opportunity to force that with Delcy Rodriguez surrounded by this armada, this threat of an embargo that would...

prevent them notionally from engaging in any trade in oil. He thinks he can get that faster by forcing her... to kneel before him rather than waiting 30, 60, 90, 120 days for elections and then a new government coming in that may not be as open to the idea of an American takeover of Venezuelan oil as Donald Trump is demanding.

He has no interest in democracy in these countries whatsoever. What he's interested in is making them become part of America's, as he sees it, unique sphere of influence in the Western Hemisphere. The Donro, as they now style the Monroe Doctrine, the Donro Doctrine. And, of course, the more you read into that testimony that Fiona Hill gave in 2019, the more you realise that it's...

perfectly possible to actually name the people who are likely to be most enriched individually by these interventions. And you've done all of that without mentioning Juan Orlando Hernandez. I know. Well, I was just going to come to that. I mean, the complete...

lie to Donald Trump's policy as far as the drugs issue is concerned relates to the former president of Honduras Juan Orlando Hernandez who of course President Trump pardoned and freed from an American jail where he was serving decades, a 25-year prison sentence, after... having been convicted in American courts of many of the same crimes that they are going to present today before Nicolas Maduro and his wife. I do think Nicolas Maduro, I mean, if you watch the video of him...

the perp walk, is exuding confidence. It's very odd. Well, I'm not sure that it is. I mean, in two ways. Go on. First of all, I've met him. Right. I met him in 2007. And he always exudes confidence about everything. And often that confidence is misplaced. Yes. He miscalculated Trump. only a couple of weeks ago, was reportedly offering him the opportunity to go into exile, gilded luxury in Turkey. He didn't take it because he thought he could outmaneuver Trump. Now he's discovered he can't.

But the reason why the confidence may not be misplaced is because I think Nicolas Maduro is going to have a strong case to make that he was illegally apprehended by the United States government. that the court in New York has no jurisdiction to hear the case because by Donald Trump's... own admission on Saturday, and this is why the British government's position is so supine in all of this, Donald Trump has already confirmed that this was, in his words, an attack

on Venezuela's sovereignty, one of the most perfect attacks on sovereignty ever carried out by the United States. He has confirmed that this was... Illegal. And I think Nicolas Maduro is going to go to great lengths through his lawyers, obviously, to try and prove that there's no case to answer for in the United States. Call the president as a witness for the defense.

Right. Absolutely. Or just, you know, tough it out, get through the trial, get through the conviction, and then find a way of making sure that you can line up a whole series of circumstances that lead Donald Trump eventually to pardon him.

Do you want to end with another sigh or are we looking forward to the year ahead now? Oh, I think we're into it now. We're off and running. We're always grateful for your help and look forward to lots of it in the year to come. Thank you, Simon Marks, LBC's US editor, on his way, en route, effectively, back to the land. Well, can't call it that anymore either, really, can we? The land of the free. It's 12.02.

It is six minutes after 12 and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC where our own, our very own Natasha Clarke has... Stolen the march on the rest of the lobby this morning with that question to Donald Trump about what would happen with regard to Greenland. And it is yet more evidence of the necessity of focus. I don't know how long this introduction is going to be, by the way, but I just wonder what's going on in your head sometimes. Do you feel these things like I do? I can't quite...

It's like looking at Simon's face when he was in the studio a minute ago. He is describing things that have happened. And then he is sort of rolling his eyes and saying it's unbelievable. Of course it's not unbelievable. It's probably a German word for this. It's not unbelievable because you can see it happening in front of you. And yet it's unbelievable because it is happening in front. That's the bit that's unbelievable.

So, I mean, if you had to pick a favourite bit of what is currently unbelievable, what would it be? I'm moving your focus now away from Venezuela and towards Greenland. I mean, that might be the bit. You're doing what? Sovereign European territory under threat from a rogue regime coming out of Washington. Yes Well, you're mad. Yeah, but they've said that that's what they're gonna do. Oh Well, you're not mad then he is did you see I mean, what's the bit?

If I have misused the physics of bimetallic strips during my attempts to make sense of this madness for you this morning, then I apologise. But that's the thing I've got in my head. You know, you do it in physics. It's how indicators on cars used to operate. You've got a bimetallic strip, a strip. So it's got one metal on one side and one metal on another. And they've got different boiling points or melting points or whatever.

And so as you heat it up, it clicks. And I've got these bimetallic strips in my brain where I say something and it just clicks and goes, no, stop, that can't be true. And I wait for it to cool down. It clicks back again. And you go, no, that is true. Donald Trump.

is openly salivating at the prospect of taking over Greenland, annexing Greenland. What word would you like to use? I don't know. Invading Greenland? I don't know what the defence would look like unless NATO were to step up to the plate and defend. NATO territory against an aggressive United States of America. It's gone again. It's clicking again. This can't be happening. We can't be having a phone-in on LBC in 2026.

about the prospect of the United States of America helping itself to European soil. This has never happened. What on earth are we doing? What is happening? But here we are. Here we are. We need Greenland. We do need Greenland. Absolutely. Donald Trump sold the Atlantic magazine, claiming, and this is the lie in the same way that the deposition of Maduro has anything to do with drugs, and you know it doesn't because he released the Honduran guy.

claiming that the Danish territory is surrounded by Russian and Chinese ships and therefore he must annex Greenland for US security. We need it for defence, he said. And then you have the wife of the deputy chief of staff, Stephen Miller, showing a map of Greenland painted with the US flag and captioned, soon. And we have to have this conversation now.

An invasion of Greenland. One newspaper reports today is deemed unlikely by analysts who point out that the Danish territory is a part of the NATO alliance along with the United States. However, the renewed threats are likely to alarm European leaders as the American split with the continent grows, which prompts Natasha to ask Keir Starmer just a few moments ago. I'm going to say this again. The political editor of LBC.

is asking the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom his thoughts on the possible invasion of European territory by the United States President. Why is she asking him that? Because he said that he wants to do it. Not only that, but he thinks that he has to. And the wife of one of his key conciliary is boasting about it being a work in progress.

as we speak. Here it is again. The future of Greenland is for Greenland and the Kingdom of Denmark. And it's for Greenland and the Kingdom of Denmark only. Denmark is a close ally of the United Kingdom in Europe. and a close ally in NATO. And so it's very important we stand by our ally and very clear about the future of Greenland. And that's your message to Donald Trump as well when you speak to him next? It's my consistent message in relation to Greenland.

And so that's not a new position. It is the future for Greenland. It's for Greenland and the Kingdom of Denmark. They are a European ally. They're a NATO ally. And we stand with Denmark on this. I mean, the question had to be asked and the question had to be answered. And because I'm live on the radio and I've had two weeks off, I'm sitting here slightly nonplussed about the fact that we're having this conversation at all.

The question had to be asked and the question had to be answered. Essentially, what about the idea of President Trump invading Greenland? Essentially invading Denmark, invading Europe. What do you think about that one? Now, how long ago would you have gone, has Natasha taken leave of her senses? Has someone spiked her drink? What on earth is she doing? Using one of these rare and precious opportunities to ask the Prime Minister a direct question by asking her about the...

likelihood of the presidents of the United States of America invading Europe. There wouldn't have been a single person in that room who thought that that was not the right question. In fact, a lot of them would be kicking themselves and not asking it themselves. And he answered it in what I'm afraid we're going to have to start describing as Starmer-esque fashions. He answered it in a Starmer-esque fashion. He did say something, but it wasn't much.

And there's no... So what's missing here? There's two elements missing now from this extraordinary conversation. What would it look like? what would the tactics be and this is an invitation to you to speculate to your heart's content i mean one extreme is the one described as unlikely

by analysts speaking to one newspaper this morning. And a US invasion of... Well, let's start there. Who on earth is qualified to answer this question? What would that look like? How many people are now Googling the map of Greenland?

Looking at where it sits geopolitically, where it sits topographically, and thinking, well, hang on a minute, if they came from there and they... Oof. And anyway, if Russia really didn't want it to happen, then what would Russia do to stop it from happening? Terrifying questions.

really. But what would it look like? What would the options be? Okay, so imagine the flag goes up tomorrow morning. I don't think it will, but I think the likelihood of the flag going up at some point is... probably more than 50%. God forbid it's 52-48, the infernal ratio. The flag goes up tomorrow morning. Donald Trump instructs his administration, up to and including his military, that he wants Greenland.

I want Greenland. And they then come up with a variety of plans in which Greenland becomes part of the USA. What does that... look like what are the ways of achieving that what are the means by which the united states of america could annex greenland You're doing it now as well, are you? You'll now think, I can't believe he's asking this question, but my God, he has to, doesn't he? Oh, three, four, five. Rarely has the phone number sounded so inadequate.

0345 6060 973. How does the United States get its hands on Greenland? What are the options? All of which will potentially trigger a chain of events that we also need to examine as well. So does NATO... Resist. I mean, who would take odds on the likelihood of the American army lining up against its NATO allies on a European battlefield? I'm going to say it. I'm going to say it now. I still can't for a minute believe that that is going to happen.

right but there's quite a lot of things that have happened recently that I would once have said were never going to happen so I'm not taking that off the table I'm merely suggesting that if that is the scenario that you're going to moot then you're going to have to have all your ducks in a row Or are all your geese in a line? How does the USA get its hands on Greenland? 0345 6060 973.

And you might know a lot more about the region, the politics of the region, the demographics of the region than I do, in which case your answer will be probably a lot more interesting and certainly a lot more informed than mine. So how does it happen? 03456060973. Is it boots on the ground? Is it some sort of diplomatic coup? Is it regime change? How would that even work? Is it, I don't know, a bribe?

What have you got? Seriously, what have you got? How does, if Donald Trump's dream is to be realised, how does it happen? Hit the numbers now, you will get through. obviously people with connections to Denmark in particular, or Denmark in general, and Greenland in particular, have particular priority at this point. And then the second bit is, I'm going to use the word we.

How do we stop it? Because you asked me why Donald Trump has invaded Venezuela and my answer to, or not invaded, but has essentially annexed Venezuela. My answer to you is because he wanted to and because he can. That's all you need to know about Donald Trump. Does he want to do it? Yes. Can he do it? Yes. It's done. It's happening. He wants to do it. Is it legal? Doesn't matter.

Is it right? Doesn't matter. Is it hideous? Doesn't matter. Is it morally wrong? Doesn't matter. Does it involve setting a mob, begging for the blood of his own vice president? Doesn't matter. Does he want it to happen? And can it happen? So we know he wants it to happen. The question I'm asking you really is, can it happen? So question number one is, how does it happen? And question number two then becomes, how can it be stopped? Do you remember?

When people were telling us that the last thing we needed and we had to leave the European Union because there was a prospect of there being a European army one day. Do you remember that? Oh, we can't have a European army, they said. Oh, down with the European, they're going to be a European army. It was probably Farage. In fact, it was almost certainly Farage, wasn't it, leading that particular line of treacherous rhetoric? Mustn't have a European army. What does resistance look like?

to Donald Trump's dream of taking over Greenland. I haven't got a Scooby-Doo, but hopefully you do.

And if you do, then the number you need is 03456060973. So how would it work? And how could it be stopped? Two of the strangest questions I have ever asked you. And possibly, depending on what unfolds in the next months, in the coming months, possibly two of the most important from a European perspective and even from a global perspective. How does Donald Trump's dream of Greenland?

reach fruition? And how can the rest of the world stop it from happening? Most obviously, in the first instance, NATO and the European Union. Sadly...

Thanks to the kind of Lord Whore Whores who cautioned against having a European army, sadly the United Kingdom is currently only in one of those supranational institutions. 03456060973. 20 minutes after 12, I mean a lot of counterfactuals and a lot of theoreticals going on today as well some of which I reserve the right to be a bit dismissive of but others of which really get under my skin and make me think quite a few of you have posited

the notion of Argentina having another crack at the Falkland Islands, and where Donald Trump would sit on that, given that he's very close to the leader of Argentina. increasingly less warm towards the leader of the United Kingdom. So if Argentina were to invade sovereign UK territory in the Falkland Islands again, could Keir Starmer rely on Donald Trump in the way that Margaret Thatcher could rely upon Ronald Reagan?

Well, it's a thought, isn't it, for the ages. I wonder how many people have Googled Greenland this morning. I know we have. I know you have as well, Lisa. But we'll be embarking upon a crash course. But the questions are pertinent. You know and I know it's got nothing to do with US security or fears about China and Russia, both of whom Donald Trump looks up to like a little brother or a small boy looking up to the biggest bully in the history of the school.

His designs upon Greenland are entirely corrupt and self-interested, just as his designs upon Venezuela are, in my humble opinion. How does his dream come true and how do the rest of us stop it? Let's start with Michael who's in Greenwich. Michael, what would you like to say? Well, I think, yeah, I'm very concerned. And first of all, I think the way that Trump could...

make this all come to pass is just the U.S. already has a base in Greenland at Bidufik on the northwest coast. You just expand that. exponentially. You just move in troops and they're already on the coast. You bring in naval assets and then say, well, it's done.

They don't have to invade. They're already there. They don't have to land. So the first thing they would do then is take down the Danabrog, the Danish national flag, which must be flown at the base at all times to recognize that the base is on Danish...

territory yeah and then you and then nato at this point is for all purposes for most purposes defunct since the u.s is no longer reliable so then Denmark can appeal to the other European powers, but realizing that there are 100,000 U.S. troops based in Europe, including a fairly large... about 10,000 here in the UK. So you say, okay, we're going to, they already occupy a large part of Europe and have military assets here.

I mean, I know you share our concerns, but you're making it sound worryingly feasible. Well, I think it is. And what bothers me is that no one, though you have... So few people have taken this seriously. No one should be surprised.

well in terms of media i'm not here to speak for anybody else but they can't take it seriously without admitting that they've been absolutely horribly wrong about trump from the very very beginning so the more that his critics are proved right the more people who used phrases like trump derangement syndrome as a pejorative or write Daily Mail columns even today about how Keir Starmer should be more like Trump, the more they are held hostage by their own ridiculousness, ignorance and treachery.

Really. So I don't know that that's going to change anytime soon. It's gratifying to see it on the front page of the Daily Telegraph. It's gratifying to hear the UK Prime Minister. talk about it at all, acknowledge the urgency and the importance of the question. But what worries me is that the relatively casual nature of your description and that they are already there at Patufik.

are obviously militarily supported across Europe by their own troops, by their own forces, all of which leads to one inevitable question, which is, well, two inevitable questions. What does pushback look like and when would it start? at what point i mean let's say because at the moment as i say the danish flag um flaps alongside the stars and stripes at this base in denmark if they were you could focus a camera on it and they were to to lower the danish half of that

Does NATO do something then? I mean, what would pushback look like? And when would it actually happen? My other concern is that as the Danish flag goes down, Russia moves in the Baltics and takes one small town in Estonia as a challenge. And then Europe is faced with... attempting to defend, at least not ostensibly, a NATO ally against Russia.

Or do they take on the United States and then are and they're really I mean, they're already faced with the potential of a two front war. The United States in Greenland and in all of their bases in Europe. and a Russia that is being encouraged by the U.S. to act. And so I think there is a real serious... And that takes us back. I don't know if you're listening at 10 o'clock. That takes us back to the...

scenario outlined by Yuval Noah Harari in April of last year when he talked about a world of rival fortresses in which the United Kingdom would belong in none. And just on that question of the US... incremental annexation of greenland they do that with numbers, with boots on the ground, arguably without a single shot being fired, and then they start digging stuff up and helping themselves to it. Because that's the point of the whole process. Well, that's the... Yeah, that's... I mean, that's...

That's the point. And again, this all could be done incrementally. And I think the challenge for the UK is what position do they take? And my fear is that they'll say, well, we'll we'll be neutral because. You've got, in a sense, a third column here, which is saying Russia, good, NATO, bad, who are more than willing to celebrate any success.

of Donald Trump. Our opinion polls are currently led by a man who's a lot closer to Russia than he is to NATO. Well, yeah, I mean, you kind of wonder who's... finance parts of that. We know who financed his leader in Wales, and we know who financed his close friend and protege, Nathan Gill. That was a Kremlin stooge, getting him to parrot Kremlin talking points. But you're right, we do wonder who finances the rest of that bazaar.

political project and and i mean neutrality notwithstanding what would internationally speaking what would i mean what does nato look like without american leadership or without i mean i don't know who Who breaks the glass to sound the alarm? Do you see what I mean? Well, it should have been broken a year. I know that. I know that. But I think it really will come down to...

What are people willing to sacrifice and what are they willing to risk? I mean, I still think as long as, and you've said this earlier in the show, as long as money is everything, as long as growth at any cost. As long as we're more concerned about, you know, the cost of living than we are democracy or freedom or anything that's more abstract, at least.

ostensibly abstract, I don't think they're abstract at all, but those concerns, then we're going to say, well, you know, we've got to keep trade going, and okay, it's better. We don't really want to have to face tariffs, and we're not really in a position to do much about the U.S. bases in Lake and Heath and Mildenhall anyway. And so –

you know, it will be a supine Europe. I'm not sure that that's going to happen, but unless people are willing to say, well, you know, as Ben Franklin said, we all hang together, they hang us all separately. That's beautifully put. I was going to quote Kissinger back at you, but it would feel inappropriate in the circumstances. Thank you, Michael. And I mean, obviously we all hope you're wrong, but...

that grasp of the possibility is quite chilling. And it leads inevitably, inexorably, to the second question that we're asking this hour, which is what would pushback look like? And of course... Where is it going to come from? Is it going to come from Ursula von der Leyen? Does the European Union exist in that space? We were talking about defending Ukraine.

creating a necessity the awfulness of donald trump the dilution of nato and the vulnerability of ukraine creating the necessity for more european military germany in the post-war unprecedented position of Increasing military spending. I think even considering conscription, was it? Or doing conscription at some point. Traitors in this country warning against the European army for the best part of 20 years. When, of course, the only people who would be celebrating...

In Europe, if the United States were to invade or annex Greenland, would be Russians. Half past 12 is the time. 03456060973 is the number. Michael has set the bar high, but I'm confident you can match it. In answer to these two questions, what would it look like? And how would it be stopped? How would it be stopped? Amelia Cox has your headlines.

12.33 is the time. I'm like you, trying to swat up now on the Pitufik space base, which I'm almost certainly mispronouncing, but which Michael and Greenwich just... well, for me at least, introduced us to the existence of, let alone the importance. It had 6,000 personnel during the Cold War.

Denmark, of course, a founding member of NATO, but there's only about 150 United States service members there now. That's the first thing you'd look at, perhaps. If you're just tuning in and you've been taking a bit of time off from the news over Christmas, we're talking about Donald Trump invading Europe. What? Hello? Excuse me. Nurse! Nurse! Brian's lost it, finally! Because he said he wants to. Indeed that he has to. And the small part of Europe he has his eye on first is Greenland.

currently an autonomous part of the Kingdom of Denmark. And so the first thing you'd look for probably would be troop movements, because we are asking the question of what that annexation would look like. How does Donald Trump's dream come true? And...

The first thing you'd look at under Michael's analysis, which is going to be pretty hard to beat, my slightly simplistic suggestion that the first thing you'd look for would be for the Danish national flag to be lowered at the base because it currently flies alongside the US flag. But prior or perhaps alongside that, you'd be looking out for troop movements because you get enough troops on the ground, like the boiled frog, my favourite analogy. So at some point...

You can't resist. So you add 50. And nobody goes, good Lord, we're going to have to mobilize NATO forces. You had 100 troops. Suddenly there's 2,000 US troops on the ground in Greenland. And European leaders are still sitting around like bald men arguing over a cove. And then there's 5,000, and European leaders are issuing strongly worded statements, and Mark Carney is rattling his sabre. Maybe not Mark Carney, but you know what I mean.

And then suddenly there's 10,000 US troops on the ground in a region that's only got a population of about 30 or 40,000. And the next thing you know, there are as many US troops on the ground as there are... people living there. These are simplistic exaggerations and embellishments for the purposes of illustration. But you see what I mean? Because somewhere on that graph...

There are currently 150 troops in the base, on the ground, right? That's the bottom of the graph, 150. And it goes up at a fairly steep gradient to, let us say, 20,000. They could accommodate 6,000 during the Cold War. These are troops who can pitch tents, you know. So suddenly there's 20,000 there. There's almost as many troops in U.S. uniforms as there are residents of that region.

So what now does pushback look like? Ah, I'm this close to saying it's going to happen. And now I think I know how. Michael, one of those callers who, I hope he doesn't mind me saying, clearly is a lot more qualified to be talking about this sort of stuff than I am. Gives us pause. We've had a few callers like that. We're very blessed with callers like that over the years. We must be doing something right.

But now you're beginning to see what it might look like. And the question of how you would stop it from happening becomes, A, more urgent, and B, rather harder to answer. Moona is in Kilburn. Moona, what would you like to say?

Hi, I just want to start by, I actually didn't start watching the whole show, so I'm definitely going to go back later today. So I don't want to repeat anything, but let me know if I am. Don't worry. And welcome back. Thank you. I have a cold too, so sorry about that.

So the question is, how would they take it? So we're like spectaculating what they can do. I personally think it's involvement with the tech companies and the tech leaders that were behind him. I think tech has to do a lot with that. But the question I really find interesting and maybe within this is, do you think it will happen? And personally, yes, I think it will happen. Do I think it's right and wrong? I think that's a different thing. I think it's wrong. But this is unprecedented, which is.

Looking, he's going to find all of this is unprecedented. And when the UN was created, it was after the Second World War. What Churchill did before all of that was to stand up against unprecedented time. And what we need to do is... stand up again and this is how it will start. But what does that look like? Standing up is an easy phrase to utter, but what does it actually look like? By calling out what is wrong and what is right. By going into Venezuela...

And doing unprecedented, regardless of what it was, it was unprecedented and it was wrong. I think we can all agree. They've called it out. I mean, maybe not in terms. Some leaders have called it out. Some have come very close. Some have bottled the opportunity completely. Sadly, Keir Starmer is on the final list.

Let's imagine that every world leader on the planet said this is against international law and this is wrong. And Donald Trump looks at me in the eye and says, and what are you going to do about it? And yes, we're going to stick...

Go against fascism. I mean, that's just, again, I don't want to sound, that's just a phrase. These are just words. Donald Trump is saying, what are you going to do about it? Not what are you going to say about it? What are you going to do about it? I don't think that's either going to happen, unfortunately. That's my problem.

Well, no, your problem is that even if it did happen, it wouldn't achieve anything. No, I'm saying if Keir Summer, I don't think Keir Summer would even say that. Yeah, but it doesn't matter because even if they did, even if they all said it, Donald Trump would say, yeah, and so what?

Do you think Vladimir Putin cares about widespread condemnation about his invasion of Ukraine? Vladimir Putin goes into Ukraine. The whole world is up in arms. Everybody describes it as illegal. Everybody condemns it. Everybody chips in to the refugee effort. Everybody chips in to the defense. Everybody champions. They put sanctions on him. Putin's not gone anywhere. It's completely different. It's not. It's exactly the same. It's exactly the same.

Vladimir Putin is saying, what are you going to do about it? Your protests mean nothing. Donald Trump, in the event of the protests happening, which is, I agree with you, is not yet happening, but even if it did... What would pushback look like? Pushback wouldn't look like unanimous international condemnation because that wouldn't change anything. It has to be actions, not words. It has to be actions, not words. It's actions that have helped Zelensky.

Not words. All the words in the world aren't going to butter any parsnips or arm any troops in Ukraine. I don't know what it looks like. I'm not criticizing you because I don't know either. But my goodness me, it's a frightening scenario. It's a frightening prospect. Donald Trump wants...

Greenland. He has made no secret of the fact. His closest confidants are openly describing the annexation of Greenland as a work in progress. It is something not devoutly to be wished, but something to set your watch by. How would it happen? Question one, 03456060973. How would it be stopped? And the absence of meaningful answers to that question is, well, speaking volumes. How would it be stopped? Because remember... I've got them all lined up here. Imagine if they greeted...

An attempt to annex Greenland in exactly the same way as the attempt to annex Crimea was greeted. Lots and lots of condemnation, but they did absolutely nothing. The only reason why Ukraine stands today... is because their resistance to the Russian invasion surprised everybody except Ukrainians. It surprised allies, it surprised Americans, it surprised Europeans, and most of all, it surprised Russians. It surprised Vladimir Putin. If Ukraine had not been ready...

and able to defend itself against that invasion, then it would have gone the same way as Crimea. There'd have been lots of noise. Barack Obama on the hook for this one. Oh, it's terrible. It's awful. It cannot be. Oh, it's disgusting. It's disgraceful. Who's in charge now?

Oh, I am, says Vladimir Putin. Thank you for all your condemnations. Thank you for all your criticisms. I think you'll find I'm still in charge. What does resistance look like? Resistance looks like firing guns and shooting bullets. Nothing else works. Perhaps. So what does resistance to Greenland annexation look like? It's a terrifying question, right? Because there's only really one answer. It looks like war.

And then you find yourself wondering whether that is likely to happen. I don't know your answer to that question. And I don't even know what it would look like. A military resistance of the United States on European soil.

But I've got a horrible feeling we might all find out. Ryan's in York. Ryan, what would you like to say? James, nice to finally speak to you. Likewise. so basically from what i can see at the moment it's already kind of happening already um So basically, as we know, a few months ago, JD Vance was already in Greenland handing out maggot hats to everybody, you know, trying to get them on side.

Europe is deeply fractured at the moment, so this is basically what's going to happen. Not only is Europe deeply fractured, but people like J.D. Vance are finding those fractures and hammering chisels into them at every opportunity. Absolutely. So basically, yep, absolutely. What's going to happen is, as Michael put it, they've already got bases in Greenland at the moment. They're going to pretty much have troops on the ground. Trump is going to turn around and say...

Come at us, Europe. Because he knows for an absolute fact that Europe is weak and they're not going to do anything about it. They're basically just going to appease Trump like Hitler did, like Britain and France did. back in World War II. They're going to do exactly the same thing, and it'll just give them a chance to rearm, basically, in terms of... I mean, historically... I mean, the more worrying element is what Vladimir Putin might do as a consequence in the Baltics, seeing the...

American annexation of Greenland and thinking, well, I'll help myself to Estonia or Lithuania, because I don't think, and this perhaps flies in the face of historical precedent, I don't think Donald Trump has designs. beyond Greenland on European soil. I think it's so rich, this soil.

that he wants it for financial reasons. I don't think it's like annexing Sudetenland or invading Poland. I don't think we sit here saying, well, you know, this isn't ideal, but I think we can trust him. And then the next thing you know, he's marching into France. I just can't quite conceive of that happening. So it adds to the likelihood of inaction, the idea that, well, it's only Greenland. Let's just let, I mean, you know, never mind the people that live there. Well, to be honest...

Yeah, to be honest, Britain and France did the exact same thing with Sudetenland. I mean, they weren't even at the table to discuss it. So, you know, you're absolutely right with what you say about it's only Greenland, but where does it stop?

Well, that's what I wonder. I think it arguably does stop with Greenland for Trump, but not with the ripples coming out of Russia as a consequence of what Trump will do in Greenland. That's what everyone should be most worried about. You know, the problem you've got there is that... Basically, us, Europe, we're basically looking at two fronts then, in the same way as Germany did. We're looking at America on the other side of the Atlantic, we've got Russia.

And if they come together, they've got two very big armies. If they come together, we will be absolutely screwed. I'll tell you what, if you were sitting in the Kremlin in 2016... wondering about what pieces need to be in place to completely dismantle the post-war peace, the post-war European order, then you'd have been backing Brexit like it was.

going out of fashion you'd have been treating brexit backing british politicians like royalty because the idea of of a unified europe standing up to this is pretty hard to swallow isn't it it's pretty hard to buy but a completely fractured Europe with the far right on the march in pretty much every country going. The idea of that standing up to either American or Russian imperial aggression is just a non-starter, right? Absolutely. I mean...

It already started with the Brexit vote. His whole game, Putin, was basically to fracture Europe so that they would not stand up against his might. And that's kind of what's happening. We've fallen for it hook, line and sinker, unfortunately. And this is... basically one of the first steps i'm not saying that this is the this is the end game i'm not saying that this no or that it's irreversible or that it's irreversible but it is the direction of traffic

And you can't mix the two up, as I mentioned quite a lot at the moment, because almost all of her chickens are coming home to roost. But Carol Cadwallader on the absolute necessity of seeing Brexit and Donald Trump in exactly the same light. as part of exactly the same project, becoming ever harder to resist, let alone to challenge. Not that I particularly want to, but there were, of course, plenty of people.

that did, and in some cases still do. Thank you, Ryan. I think you grew up in Denmark. I missed that bit out of our conversation. Yes, I did. Yes, sorry. I forgot. Sorry, I got called to my own. Well, yeah, I grew up. I mean... They love, you know, we love the American culture and the films and everything like that. Over the last... They've sort of grown, the Danish have sort of grown against...

Mainly American politics. I mean, American politics, they hate everything. The social democracy of Denmark stands for. Which is education, health. I mean, it's almost a socialist utopia, isn't it, in a way?

It's very, very well structured. It's very well governed in my personal... Yeah, of course, there are problems. There are problems in every country. But there's a reason why it tops the happiness charts along with all the other Scandinavian countries. And it's everything America and Russia hates.

everything yeah a touch of the londons there it was nice to see some pushback on that over the christmas period but why on earth do they hate london so much the best place to live in the world including york ryan no offense but um

Answer, because it makes a mockery of all of their biggest bigotries and prejudices. You know, the most popular city on the planet, according to countless surveys and measures to live in, to work in, to visit. And yet you've got British politicians and British commentators routinely... maligning it why because it works

Why do American right-wingers hate Scandinavia, hate Denmark? Why? Because it works. Much, much, much more equality, much fairer distribution of wealth, brilliant public services, free to access, not the point of need. Oh, damn with that sort of thing.

That's not how you enrich oligarchs evermore. It is 1247. It's ten minutes to one. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. There's lots to read. Oliver Moody in Berlin, a Times correspondent in Germany, is rather good. Writing today under the headline is Greenland next in the firing line. Magus says soon. You sit in some mornings and think, oh, who's going to calm me down? Who's going to explain?

that we've got nothing to worry about. And then as you read into the piece in the title there, you get to Phillips. Our good friend Phillips O'Brien, the Professor of Strategic Studies at the University of... St. Andrews, using the phrase deadly serious to describe US plans to dominate and control the Western Hemisphere, adding take the threats against Greenland very seriously indeed.

And whether you go from the Project 2025 dossier that clearly informs everything that Trump does, despite him denying that it would have anything to do what he did on the campaign trail. Or you look at last year's national security statement. It's all there. That's the thing that sometimes you find a little bit baffling. I find a little bit baffling. It's as if the baddie in the pantomime has said to you, and now I'm going to kidnap the princess.

and lock her in a tower. And we all shout, oh, no, you're not. And then he kidnaps the princess and locks her in a tower. And I don't know, maybe Richard Littlejohn at the Daily Mail writes an article about why Keir Starmer should start kidnapping princesses and lock them in the tower instead of being such a coward. But normal people who hold this country's...

indeed peace close to their hearts respond by going oh my days why didn't we pay more attention when he said he was going to kidnap the princess and lock her in the town he's telling us what he's going to do he told us he was going to steal an election and he tried

He told us he was going to pardon the criminals that are on his side of various divides. And he did. You think that the pardon for the former Honduras president is a big deal? Wait until you learn about Larry Hoover and the gangster disciples. All sorts of drug traffickers and criminals that have been given a free pass by Donald Trump. Whether or not they have...

made the right contributions to the right funds, or whether or not they've oiled the right wheels, or whether or not he just really likes some drug dealers and doesn't like others. I do not know. But... please can we please if we do nothing else in 2026 can we stop pretending that there's any form of moral universe by which this man is bound he does what he wants to do and he'll do whatever he can

Which leads us to Greenland and the question of what annexation would look like and how on earth you stop it. Mohammed is in Redbridge. Mohammed, what would you like to say? Yes. Hi, James. It's great talking to you. I've always been a fan. Thank you. I think Greenland is gone. Greenland went the day that Trump decided to kidnap... a president of a sovereign country with no pushback from the world whatsoever.

At the end of the day. It's too early to conclude that there has been no pushback from the world whatsoever. It's also too early to conclude the opposite, that there has been pushback. It's been three days, James. It's been three days, you know. But I can chuckle at that as well. And I could say to you, it's only been three days, Mohammed. So we've both got chuckle rights on that one. To me, to you, to you, to me. Yeah, OK.

So they might push back. I doubt it. I'm not going to lie to you. I can't quite see Keir Starmer waiting up tomorrow morning and going, actually, on reflection, Donald Trump's a menace and we should do everything within our power. I take your point. So this is like Crimea. Venezuela is Crimea. Ukraine is Greenland. Yes, yes. Because at the end of the day, what is Trump? Trump is a bully who is surrounded with yes-men, right?

So when the rest of the world also say yes, he's got the green light, right? Nobody's ever said no to him. The fact of the matter is... The woman he sued for libel said no to him. Just briefly, what would meaningful resistance look like? Sanctions from the US. Sorry, from the UN, right? So cutting America loose. removing ourselves from the teat of the American economy and taking the hit fiscally and financially, which arguably...

Could have happened years ago or months ago and would need to happen now in order to put any pressure whatsoever upon the administration's ambitions in Europe, in the Western Hemisphere. Yes, UN sanctions and economic sanctions. from Europe, right? The fact of the matter is the man's a bully and he hasn't been told no. And on he goes. But I don't know what telling him no looks like. That's the point of this hour of the programme, really, is because we can all shout no. Telling him no. Yes.

would take the shape of you're not acting like a real country, so we won't treat you like a real country. No, thank you. We're not doing business with you. And, he says, how does that hurt me? I don't think, right, from what I've seen of Trump, and I am no expert, but I don't think Trump is the type of person to say and. He will back off.

And the people around him, the reputation of the states, if the public, if the American public started to feel that they were moving into pariah territory on the international stage, I don't know. I mean, I don't know if they'd be well informed enough. I don't mean that as a criticism of them.

criticism of their media i tell you another thank you man we're great stuff i mean dispiriting but um but but but but great nonetheless there's one thing i was thinking and this is i mean pretty chilling actually I was thinking, I'll tell you what we could do. We could use the World Cup, right?

So if everyone boycotted the world... Here's what you do if you've got a country that has embarked upon illegal imperialistic aggression across the world. You hit them where it hurts. You hit them in the... I was going to say in the balls, which would have been quite appropriate given that we're talking about football, but you might have misconstrued it. You hit them in the footballs. And then I remembered where the World Cup was hosted in 2018.

You can't make this stuff up. Every day is like every rock I look under, I find a hundred more rocks. So, hands up if you can remember where the World Cup was hosted in 2018. Keith? Bueller. Anybody? Yeah, Russia. So good luck with using FIFA, who've just given Donald Trump a peace prize as the lever with which you somehow prize him out of his...

Greenland ambitions. I've got time, I think, for one more call, and it's going to be Gary in Calais. Bon ane, Gary. Bon ane. Hello, mate. It's looking like the Battle of the Bulge up here. We had about three foot of snow. Oh, lordy. Exactly. Okay. The Greenland thing, first off. First, you would obviously look at a military operation. And it's not going to be small. It's not the Venezuela thing, special ops, go in, come out in your backyard. This is completely different.

And they're also looking at another NATO country. So with that logistics trail, that's going to be noted pretty soon, you would assume. Yeah, and we're going to run out of time. So what... do you do? What do we do in response? So when the flag goes up or the alarm goes off... Close every American embassy. Wow. You can stop... Why not? That's what you do. You can then stop American bases.

You've got to come up with a better suggestion. If you don't like Gary's, you've got to come up with something better. You've got to say, no, no, no. I thought you were going to say, close every door to me then. I thought you were quoting Andrew Lloyd Webber. Close every American embassy. What else can you do? What else can you do?

Do you then get them out? Then you've got to look, ask you that question. Are the American military prepared to face up to another NATO country? Because already there are questions being asked in America within NATO people. in Belgium that have been talking Americans, what do we do if we come up against it? Then you've got that other scenario, America's back fighting itself. If you think Putin's going to do anything, bring it on.

because he'll be fighting a war on two fronts, in the Ukraine and up in the Baltic. The Poles, they'd want to have a go tomorrow. I hear you. I'm out of time, but I suspect we'll be returning to this territory sooner rather than later so we can find out the rest of your thinking. Although, of course, the situation could move. It could move within days, hours. Who knows?

I've just seen helicopter footage or footage of a helicopter containing Maduro flying across New York as we speak. And I think they've sworn in his deputy now as president in Caracas. If you missed any of today's show, you can listen back on our free global player app where you can stay up to date or the LBC app where you can stay. I'm not calling it new anymore.

2026. No more new on the LBC app where you can stay up to date on the top stories and opinions. Put your news categories in the order you want. Pause and even rewind live radio as well as listen to a range of podcasts including mine. Download the official LBC app for free from your app store now. Old Tom Sawbreak will be with you at four on LBC, but now it's time for Sheila Fogarty. Thank you.