Why the Brits are so bad at foreign languages

It's three minutes after ten and you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. This is going to sound slightly ridiculous, but we had our little Christmas lunch yesterday. Do you know my team now stretches to eight people across the various... um empires that i oversee but sort of the radio show and then of course the podcasts and um and and we went out for chinese food which has become our tradition on this program and one of my colleagues one of my younger colleagues

is one of those people who knows her way around a Chinese restaurant menu in a really inspiring fashion, a lovely thing to watch. And it occurred to me, oddly, this morning, that it's a... Mark of our, is it insularity? Because I'm afraid that I historically am very much a sort of sweet and sour king prawns, egg fried rice kind of character. But if you're happy or lucky enough to work next to London's... Chinatown, then really you should be digging into the menu, particularly the dim sum menu.

in ways that are constantly throwing up new treats and delights, and that was one of the lovely things about yesterday's lunch. Keith ordered sweet and sour chicken balls, of course, as is his want, but we all tried dishes that we hadn't tried before. And it just occurred to me how I don't like the word insular, but that is the word I've got, I'm afraid. That's the only word I've got. And that thought bubbled to the surface of my brain this morning as I greeted news regarding...

The Erasmus Student Exchange Scheme. A couple of things to say before we get stuck into the question of why we... as a nation, are so unenthusiastic about learning foreign languages. Now, listen, this isn't one of those things where, hang on a minute, I speak 17 languages, James. How dare you suggest that we're all unenthusiastic? I'm not saying we're all unenthusiastic about speaking foreign languages.

But I think it is a measurable fact that we embrace foreign language learning with rather less alacrity and enthusiasm than almost all comparable countries would do. And that will be the question I open up shortly. But before that, this is Brexit related. And this, of course, this programme is the home of Brexit truth. So we should probably reflect upon the...

Well, it's the opposite of every cloud has a silver lining. Every silver lining has a cloud. Every oyster has a bit of grit in it. There isn't a figure of speeches that express the idea that all good news has a sort of small side order of less good news. Every silver lining has a cloud, I suppose. But this is a reminder of what not being in the European Union looks like.

And I think all of us have a degree of arrogance, almost jingoistic arrogance, born of having been in it for so long. We presume...

Well, two things, really. We presume that we will be treated differently from other third countries because we're British, for goodness sake, if you're jingoistic. Or, hang on a minute, we were in the middle of it until very, very recently. Surely that gives us more... clout, more credibility, more status in negotiations than it would if we'd never been in it at all.

And of course it doesn't. And that's quite a bitter pill to swallow, whether you're a lever or a remainer, whether you're deluded or whether you are married to facts and evidence, because it feels wrong, right?

It's a bit like the old analogy that we used about handing in your gym membership but feeling aggrieved that you can't pop in every now and again and use the facilities. I don't want to be a member on a monthly basis. I just want to do some bench presses every other week. Or I just want to pop in and...

have a sauna but you can't because you're not a member anymore so even if you've been a member for 50 years if you if you surrender your membership tomorrow then by friday you will have exactly the same rights as someone who has never been a member at all And that's us now. So the negotiations over Erasmus were quite hard to process because...

is a reminder that not only are we now in exactly the same position of any country in the world that has never been a member of the European Union, but we are also a junior partner in a negotiation. We have less to offer. The greatest myth of all, of course, was that they needed us more than we needed them. So even if you are a passionate pro-European, pro-EU, you look at this story and think, hang on a minute.

This is... We're... What? Why are we... This... Huh? And that's just the way it is now. So it was reported not long ago that this wasn't going to happen because the EU was demanding... too much in return, whether it was going to cost Britain money or whether there were going to be links to other areas of negotiation, whether it was going to be...

an unbalanced deal, why the EU would offer us anything without getting quite a lot, arguably more, in return, was really strong evidence of what I'm trying to describe. The simple fact that...

We kind of go to them as a supplicant. That's a great word, isn't it? I love that word. We go to them as a supplicant. It's the same in our negotiations with the United States now. That's why Trump has paused the... tech deal that was signed amid great fanfare during that ludicrous state visit he's now pressed pause on that because he will tighten the thumbscrews he will demand more

from the United Kingdom in return for what was already on the table from the United States. We have become a less powerful trading partner than we were when we were members of the largest... trading bloc in the history of humanity. That's not a Brexit re-litigation, by the way. That's just a statement of fact. It's not even an opinion. It's just counting. So...

What is it? Did anyone come up with an answer to the question of what's the polar opposite of every cloud has a silver lining, every bit of good news has a little bad news with it? Because it's great news that we're rejoining Erasmus, but... It is also bad news, I think, that you can't have the rainbow without the rain. Does that work? That's Andrew in Sutton Colford. I quite like that. I've never heard that before. Have you heard that before? You can't have the rainbow without the rain.

That's nice. But it doesn't quite do the job that I'm looking for. It has been a reminder, this announcement this morning, that we are... simply supplicant. We go to the EU, we ask for things, which we used to get as a matter of calls, which we used to get as a matter of membership, which we used to get without even really noticing. In the words of Joni Mitchell, you don't know what you've got till it's gone.

words of Matt, we have become a vassal state. But that is a reminder of that. That's not what we're going to talk about today. Although I suspect that the B word will be appearing more and more in public discourse next year. Anyone else feeling the wind down yet? It's Wednesday. I break up on Friday. I don't know when you do. But the wind down seems to be underway. So it's about 100 to 200 million pounds a year, the resulting cost.

to britain um too expensive on membership under boris johnson he didn't have to pull us out of erasmus but he did because he is boris johnson and he can't help himself. He sees something nice, he has to break it. He sees something beneficial to the country, he has to try and stick his dirty little fingerprints all over it. He sees something valuable that involves...

cooperation with foreign countries other than Russia and he hates it. So he pulled us out of it and it has cost us as a consequence. And it also meant, of course, that we couldn't send students to other European countries to study. The UK made a net profit of about £243 million from having European students in this country. They provided a lucrative customer base for the higher education services and hospitality sectors. So Boris Johnson shut it down. It is essentially an educational scheme.

under which European students come here, students from other European countries come here to polish up their English, and students from here go there to polish up their French, their German, their Spanish, their Portuguese, their Polish, you name it. If they're in the EU, you can do it. And what occurred to me first this morning was that families like mine will be delighted by this. One of my daughters did a foreign language A-level.

and would have loved to have spent more time in France as an undergraduate or to have spent time in France studying French. If you go to a university in Dublin, by the way, you have to have a foreign language up to A-level. struck me as among the most positive proofs, certainly if you go to Trinity College, Dublin, it struck me as one of the most positive proofs of this observation that other countries take foreign languages a heck of a lot more seriously than we do. And I just want to know why.

And I'm just nibbling at the class issue here because, again, I'm going to make a generalisation. And, again, it is not a claim that it applies to everybody. That's the thing about generalisations. But I think that a middle class pupil is much more likely to study a foreign language to a high level than a working class pupil.

And I don't know why that is either. I mean, there are some obvious answers. If you're privately educated, you're going to have a greater provision of non-core subjects in your school and they're going to be taught with more attention and more. but it doesn't necessarily explain what that impulse is like. So I've got two or three questions for you. The first is, why do you think we are so...

bad at foreign languages? 03456060973. That's a question everyone can answer, because you could be multilingual or monolingual and still have an interesting... insight into why that would be. Why are British youngsters so much less likely to be studying foreign languages than almost all of their counterparts? Some of the questions will be historical and perhaps even philosophical.

empire may play a part in this but some of the answers may be very current and very curriculum based it may be that as a teacher of foreign languages you can explain why enthusiasm is even lower now than it was when you started teaching. It seems such a self-defeating. thing to do in the land of self-defeat, to actually dial down access to and appreciation of speaking other languages seems like such a stupid thing to do. What about yesterday's? discussion about NEATS.

If you weren't listening yesterday, we turned our attention once again to the nearly 1 million 16 to 24 year olds currently in neither education, employment nor training. And the conversation immediately becomes a conversation about opportunity and aspiration. And both are essentially under siege from reality for a lot of young people in this country at the moment. And yet, if it is opportunity that is lacking, then surely a foreign language becomes a multiplier.

If you play Uno, it becomes one of those cards that you can put down and enhances everything. If you speak another language, that's an entire another country in which, had we not abolished our own freedom of movement, and another example of... voting to punch ourselves in the face in 2016, you would have that avenue open to you. It's still there. It's just not wide open in the way that it was prior to Brexit. So opportunity, aspiration.

All of the things that learning other languages would deliver seem to not register or resonate as greatly with our children, with our youth, as they do with other countries. So, straight up question, why? 0345 6060 973. And then what you might call the warmer way into this story. And it's not... I'm going to go down in history of one of the heaviest hitting of the questions I've ever asked you, but it might be quite helpful. I love the idea sometimes that...

People have made some lovely comments about the program recently, haven't they, when they've come on and talked about, very, very kindly and complimentarily talked about the difference that we might make together to each other's lives.

But I love the idea of somebody coming away from today's programme with a slightly enhanced... idea about learning a foreign language becoming more likely to encourage their 13 year old perhaps to to do it at a level or indeed if there are young people listening to make them a bit more likely to do it because there cannot be a downside can there And that's the second question. What difference has it made to your life? 03456060973. So, question number one. Why are we so bad at foreign languages?

So unenthusiastic, so unengaged. 03456060973. And if you're not in that category, if you are someone who has learned and continues to speak languages other than your native tongue... What difference has it made to your life? You know, a few people thought I had been hallucinating yesterday when I suggested that the Daily Mail had run a big article at the weekend complaining about Polish people leaving this country.

And I double-checked. It's true. The Daily Mail has now started complaining about Polish people leaving this country, having dedicated almost all of its energies to telling Polish people to clear off. ASAP and to not let the door smack them on the backside on their way out. They are now complaining about Polish people leaving this country in their droves.

because of the economic damage done in large part by the Brexit that the Daily Mail told everybody to vote for. I'll share some more details of that with you in a moment. But I remember when Farage was wanging on about children. who didn't have English as their first language and pretending that that was some sort of tragedy or scandal. He's been doing it again, actually, in the context of Glasgow.

So, so disingenuous, so deeply dishonest to do that because A, it includes his own children. His own children are in that category. And B, it denigrates multilinguistic. Lives. It literally says, here's a child who speaks two languages, down with that sort of thing, because their mother tongue isn't English. So he includes his own children. That's the mad thing about lots of Farage's propaganda and dishonesty. as you scratch the surface of it and the hypocrisy is 125 feet high

But crucially, it also spoke to a real, for someone with a French name to complain about kids who can speak more than one language just struck me as extraordinary. And it still does, but it feeds into something. I was looking at some of the polling for the Senate elections in Wales next year, and Plaid are currently ahead. But their support, Plaid Cymru's support, is drawn from the more educated sections of the electorate, and Farage's support is drawn from people more likely to...

to have left school at 16 and done no study afterwards. And that's not a reflection of intelligence, of course. It's just a reflection of education. And if you are trying to woo the uneducated or the poorly educated, then you might be able to portray speaking foreign languages as a negative. Let's do the opposite today. Let's paint a very positive picture of the benefits.

that speaking more than one language can deliver to every life, to every child from any background. And although some of the benefits might be obvious, some may not be. They'll be the ones that perhaps are more interesting to hear. Shall we open Idiot's Corner early today? Shall we do that?

Okay, we're going to open Idiot's Corner a little bit early today. This is Edward who writes, do you really need to rejoin the EU just to learn a foreign language? No, Edward, but you need to be in the Erasmus scheme to benefit from the Erasmus scheme. You absolute... Wally. 20 minutes after 10 is the time. I should perhaps have been a little more open with you. I can't really speak foreign languages. I've got O-level French. I've got kind of slightly better than...

average tourist Greek. I speak enough Greek to delight Greek people. And I speak enough French to dismay and disgust French people. Isn't it funny that? Probably got slightly better Greek than French. But only because I've been to Greece a heck of a lot more over the last 30 years than I've been to France. But French people don't seem to enjoy my efforts to speak French. Maybe that's just in Paris. I don't know. Whereas Greek people, probably because they're so unused to somebody.

as pale as me popping out with a little bit of the lingo. They absolutely love it. Like, true double-take territory, but I don't have enough. I couldn't, I mean, I can't write it, I can't read it, I mean, not even for a minute pretending that I am... multilingual. And I really wish I was. It's shameful. Three things I wish I could do. It's never too late. I wish I could speak a foreign language properly.

ideally greek and i'm intending to learn sooner rather than later i wish i could play a musical instrument other than the kazoo and do you know matthew who works on my podcast works on the full disclosure podcast and puts together the um the whole show podcast for YouTube. He played all the recorders.

This came up at lunch yesterday as well. Including the one that's... There's one recorder that's about eight feet tall. There's only about... I think there were only about five of them in the whole of Wales when he was studying. He plays all the recorders. But I can't play anything.

I can play Take On Me by a har on the piano with two fingers. That's it. That's the extent of my musical abilities. So I wish I could speak a foreign language. I wish I could play a musical instrument. And I wish I could draw or sing. That's four things. Can't do any of them. Why are we so poor at languages? And what benefits can you point to from actually being able to speak more than one? Hannah is in Huddersfield. Hannah, what would you like to say?

Hello. Yeah, I'm a languages teacher. I've been doing that for about 20 years now. I think children just, there's a lot more choices available to them as they go to take their GCSEs now. Kids on average will get a slightly lower grade in their language. Why? Is that all your fault? Yeah, it's my fault.

I'm not even at work today. I'm part-time, so I'm not working hard enough. Yeah, I think on average, you know, I've seen over the years kind of your A grade student might get a set of A's and then, oh, it's nines now, isn't it? And then like a B. in their French. So they just think they can get a better grade if they do something else. Well, hang on, I meant it. Obviously, I didn't mean it when I blamed you, but why would that be? Why do you think that... Because I get that, and I've got...

Both of mine are over the GCSE hump, but the grades, it's a tyranny, isn't it? It's a fascistic tyranny of grades now that they suffer from, these children. And they are going to choose a subject in which they're more likely to get an A. But that means there's something wrong going on. There's something weird going on. Why would they be less likely to get an A in French or Spanish than they would be in, say, I don't know, geography or history or one of the things they might do instead?

The exam is, like, notoriously difficult. Sometimes I look at the questions and I'm like, I'm really not sure why they're asking that or putting their question in that way. They try and trick them sometimes with the questions. I think it's... It's a multitude of reasons, really. I mean, even native speakers are getting questions wrong on the papers. So...

Well, this is chicken and egg, isn't it? This is poulet and oeuf. Because, I mean, if it was taken more seriously as a subject, then probably the examining... And some people might dispute your... account of the examining but in terms of basic enthusiasm why did you do it well how many languages can you speak

Right, okay, yeah, because you were saying, because I grew up, I've got a pretty working class background, as it happens, and used to holiday on the Yorkshire coast as a kid, so I didn't really travel, I just really enjoyed it, so I did French and German at school. I've got French and German to A-level, did a French and English degree. So I've always taught French with a bit of German. And now German is, and that's a whole other conversation, but that's been pushed out of schools, which is...

Really? I didn't know that either. I mean, locally to me, a lot of schools are moving from German to Spanish. I mean, Spanish is amazing, and I've been learning Spanish. In fact, I've got my lesson this afternoon. But it's... It's very similar to French. I find it easy because I can speak French. It's a Latin language. It's a Latin language, isn't it? So in a sentence, why...

Are students today less enthusiastic about learning foreign languages than students were when you were one, when you were a school pupil? What's the biggest change? Yeah, I don't know. I think...

I'd have to know, because I mean, I think the whole, everyone speaks English attitude has always been there. And that's their experience of travel, because English is this lingua fanka that people... But that's why I'm fascinated by Trinity College Dublin, making it a requirement for everybody to have a... foreign language and everyone there can speak English.

You know, everyone in Ireland can speak English. An increasing number of people can speak Irish as well. But it's not just the case that if you can speak English, you're going to be all right everywhere in the world. You're going to be better off the more languages you can speak. Spanish overtaking German because of Central and South America, I imagine.

and the fact that the options or the doors that you can kick open with good Spanish outnumber the doors that you can kick open with good German. But why? Why would that be? Why is it that, I mean, Boris Johnson, a man who pretends he can speak Latin, pulling out our children, pulling our children out of a scheme under which their horizons could have stayed broader.

than they would otherwise have stayed, even as he was shutting down other horizons as a consequence of Brexit left, right and centre. Hannah, thank you. Mike is in Wesentepe, is it, in Cyprus? Did I pronounce that correctly? Yeah, good morning, James. Good morning. What is your answer to the question that I'm asking? It's basically lazy. It's pointless going to school and learning the language. You're never going to use it. So at school, again, I came from a working-class background.

Spanish, did French school. Lost those, I suppose, up to about 16, joined the military. I did a military junior leaders regiment, learned German. I was almost fluent in German. Lived in Germany for three years. My German got better. Moved to Holland. Stopped speaking German because German and Dutch contradict each other quite a bit. But I had no choice. I was married to a Dutch girl.

None of her family spoke English, so I had to learn Dutch. So I did quite successfully. So what have you got now? German, Dutch, you're in Cyprus, so a bit of Greek or Turkish, presumably? Turkish. A bit of Turkish. So you've got a facility for languages. You can pick them up. I mean, that's well above average. And I mean, I like the word lazy. I like everything about the word lazy, actually. But I like the way it sounds when it comes out of your mouth. I like Zeds.

And the noises that they make. But I don't know that I necessarily like it in this context because, I mean, insularity is what you're describing. What is the point in learning a language? Because I'm never going to go to a foreign country except on holiday. is what you're describing, that mindset. Yeah, but imagine a Turkish guy coming to the UK, a UK citizen speak Turkish, an absolute way where you go to Spain, France.

And we expect them to speak English. So for me, it's rude. So no matter what country I go to, I'll learn at least the basics, please. Thank you. Numbers. Excuse me. And that's the Irish. thing nailed down isn't it because the history and the tradition of of emigration

So, you know, thinking about why would an English-speaking country like Ireland have a much greater emphasis upon learning other languages than England does? And the answer is pretty obvious, because if you're Irish, you're much more likely to...

emigrate. Historically, not so much now, of course, but just in terms of culture and tradition, it's a much more... popular option, and not just, of course, to English-speaking countries, but the British experience doesn't and hasn't included emigration for, I mean... since Empire, really, and then we wouldn't bother learning the language because we'd go there and jolly well insist that they all learned English. Absolutely. And then if the last school had it spot on, so a teacher...

They make the exams difficult, and even for a native speaker, they get wrong. So why not teach colloquial conversation where every day you're going to ask... Just the basics. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, how are you? And then you can, because in my experience with most foreign countries, if you attempt to speak a part of their language, their barrier comes down. Not the French.

Well, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. That will make it difficult. Pretend they can't speak. Anyway, I'm late for the news. I like it. I've said this every morning, I think, this week, and it's only Wednesday, but I like patchwork quilts. And every caller provides a patch. And on a good day, my job is to sew them all together so that by the end of the hour, we've got a lovely quilt. In fact, by the end of the show, we've got three. Half past ten is the time. Thomas Watts has your headline.

I don't use this word very often on the radio, but I think you know what I mean by it. It's quite sexy. isn't it, to be able to speak foreign languages? It's kind of, you know, a sign of sophistication and urbanity. Urbanity? Urbanity? Or cosmopolitan natures. But at least it is to us. I presume it isn't to us.

I've never met, for example, a Scandinavian who hasn't got impeccable English. So to a Swedish person, being able to speak English as well as Swedish isn't going to be very sexy. But to an English person, being able to speak Swedish and English is quite sexy. I'm not using the word in an erotic sense necessarily. I'm just using it in a, oh, that's just impressive. Why then are we so rubbish at it? Where does it start?

I'm sure it was better when I was young, but of course I went to private school, so possibly there was more emphasis put upon foreign languages. One of my early French teachers, in fact I had two French teachers with strong Yorkshire accents, would you believe? i remember one of them used to talk all the time about the past participle you know what young boys are like that became like a catchphrase in our school the past participle

And so there must be a generation of people who went to school in Chattersley Corbett in the 1980s who speak schoolboy French with Yorkshire accents. Hey-oh. Le factor est dans le jardin. And then when I went on to my next school, I was taught French by another man with a Yorkshire accent. He used to play fullback for England rugby, so you didn't argue with him much. He certainly didn't take the mickey out of his accents. But I don't know. I just don't know. Why? What would my life be?

ever been like if I'd gone to school in in a European country and learning English would have been almost second nature I think certainly at a private school James is in Chippenham James what made you pick up the phone Hello there. Good morning to you. So a combination of... It's a combination really with me. So I took part in the Erasmus programme. I'm also a languages teacher in a secondary school.

in a state secondary school and you know i can see how the benefit of the erasmus program but also um the difficulty languages are suffering at the moment and how it has changed over time and how languages are really dying a slow and painful death, really. Obviously, it's going to be a complicated business. There's not going to be simple answers to it, but I'm going to ask you one for anyway. I'm going to ask you for one anyway.

Why do you feel over the course of your career the enthusiasm for foreign languages has diminished in this country? I think that the emphasis on content over communication in the language courses has been a bit of an issue, and they'll say it's sort of a go-performs sort of thing. That hasn't helped. Just put some flesh... Sorry to interrupt again, but...

Also, you're a teacher. You're not used to it, are you? But could you put some more flesh on the bones of that for people who don't know what that means in detail, the Gove reforms and content over whatever it was you said? What does that mean in real life? So the amount of work that we need to cover in courses in order for children to act as the highest grades and also the level of complexity that children are expected to deal with.

For example, we're having to teach children content such as related to the European Union and complex... political elements, they wouldn't necessarily know how to discuss in their own language. So we not only have to get through the barrier of the children learning information that they're totally unfamiliar with, we also have to do it in the...

That's just stupid. I mean, I'm happy to blame Michael Gofer if it is his fault, but is it just absolute silliness on the part of the curriculum setters? Because why would you be doing that and not teaching children or young people how to... get about in the country other than their own. Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I mean, when I did my German aid, I had to be able to argue...

about the BSE crisis and nuclear energy in Germany, but I couldn't necessarily go into a cafe and sit down and have a conversation with someone. How bizarre. that was something i had to learn and ironically the way i learned that was by taking part in the asmas program where i was dropped in a foreign country and had to get on with it and that's how i learned to do it

How funny. Would you be a languages teacher today had it not been for Erasmus, do you think? No, absolutely not, because I come from a working class background with no languages at all. And the opportunities that that gave me really was highly beneficial to me. And actually, that also, I think, links in as well with a point that you've made about sort of elements of private schools and state schools and so on.

I've taught in an independent school and I now teach in a state school, but also in terms of grades children get in their GCSEs, and I know a previous caller mentioned to this, it is actually much harder for children without a languages background to achieve... higher level grades in the country and one of the reasons why particularly at a level is because of the amount of native and semi-native speakers that are taking the same exams as children coming from the background

And because the government, well, I say the government, because Ofqual only give out a certain percentage of a certain number of grades each year, if, for example, you have a high proportion of native speakers... you then are loaded against it straight away. And of course, this really highly benefits schools in the independent sector, who I would argue that the significant majority of children that take, say, for example, Russian or Chinese...

Jesus, he's an A-level. Russian or Chinese kids. And they're skewing it. That's absolutely fascinating. Exactly. One of the stupidest people I've ever met was bilingual, and he did French at my school, and he got an A-level. He got an A and two U's. Yeah, and we do get what that was for. I'm going to crack on because the phone line's a bit clicky and you've already made some absolutely brilliant points. I'd never even thought of that.

So, in fact, if Farage wanted to complain about children speaking foreign languages in British schools, he should be complaining about grade inflation. He should be saying, all these terrible bilingual children are making it harder for our own children to learn foreign languages. But, of course, he doesn't want our own children to learn foreign languages. Thank you, James. Sophia is in Barnet. Sophia, what would you like to say? I would like to add that one of the reasons that this...

segment of your radio programme is really good because... Hang on a minute. What's wrong with the rest of it? What's wrong with the rest of it? We don't often hear people talking and praising multilingualism as a value in this country. And what you don't see... you can't encourage for young people. We know that children as an example are more likely to pursue language learning if they have seen multilingualism in practice.

In my own case, seeing a bilingual mum who spoke Italian and English because she's Italian meant that I had the confidence to go and study not only Italian but other languages as an adult. You also have the case, as your last caller said, very well. GCSEs, the languages, are harder. I think that's one of the reasons they're often marked more harshly. But they, generally speaking, are some of the most harshly marked GCSEs you can do.

So how are you going to encourage young people? This is an absolute revelation to me. I had absolutely no idea that this was a well-recognised thing, that you are an English kid, a monolinguistic British kid. is less likely to get a top grade in a GCSE, however clever they are, than they are in a non-foreign language GCSE, because you don't have people who are native geographers skewing the grades, or native historians, do you?

It makes perfect sense once it's been explained, but it needed to be explained to me. And a fun new word for listeners today, if they aren't already familiar with it, is glottophobia. Glottophobia is what we have seen in this last month with Nigel Farage and his comments about Glasgow. Glottophobia is discrimination or hatred targeted towards... people's languages or accents. It's like the linguistic version of xenophobia and it's glossophobic attitudes coming out like this.

Which from a bloke whose children speak fluent German is absolutely hideous behavior, isn't it? And profoundly and obviously provocative. And that is part of it. Also, you know, the line about people speaking foreign on trains. Also something we're supposed to be frightened by. How much of it? is because we're an island. If we were going to get historical, how much of it is because as an island, we lend ourselves much more readily towards insularity than we would if this were not an island?

Hey, we're a very multilingual island. Don't forget about the other languages besides English, Gaelic, Welsh. We are a multilingual island. It's less the problem that we're an island and more the problem that we are a nation. It's since, you know... the creation of nation states and lots of countries building themselves with a one-language, one-nation policy that's gifted us this legacy. And actually, in reality...

That's not how, that's not necessarily what a cohesive society is. We know that linguistic diversity is absolutely part of what can make, certainly what makes London London, I believe, as a Londoner. Of course it is. to acceptance of this. Speaking of London, sorry to interrupt you, but I'm just conscious of the time. Tell me what the London language map is and what is your role in it? Yeah, it's whilst you're doing this today, because today is the day that I am launching this.

I am creating the first ever language map of London because a linguist who did the same thing for New York last year has called for it. He said, we need a language map of London to understand.

the full diversity of London's languages to recognise endangered languages. And a map like this would have recognised the language that my nonna spoke and that my mum still speaks today, which is an endangered language variety from Italy. So anyone who's interested... in submitting their language can go to languagemap.london

and they will find a survey that they can fill out. And what does the end product look like? Will it be a map with keys on it, with colours on it, that show where languages are spoken, or am I being a bit stupid? It absolutely will be. I've already been filing loads of freedom of information requests. How exciting. That I'll publish next year, but I also need survey data. And, you know, ordinary people whose languages are normally ignored need to fill it in.

What was it again? London? Go on, tell me again what it was. LanguageMap.London. LanguageMap.London. So anybody who speaks or whose mum or a grandad speaks a language that is not... extremely well-known, not obvious, should go along to languagemap.london and record the details of their own experiences and their own lives.

Absolutely. Sophia, that's brilliant. Thank you so much. What a lovely touch. I'd like to say that how lovely that you were listening today. I'm going to work on the presumption that you were rather than the rather more likely.

possibility that somebody you know rang up and said hey they're talking about something on the radio that you absolutely need to get involved in but i shall cling to the notion that you listen religiously every day uh at 10 45 very nearly is the time you are listening to james o'brien on lbc It's just quite sad, isn't it, this conversation? The advantages are obvious of learning other languages.

The implications, the impacts are all positive. There are no negatives. And yet, there you go, glottophobia. There's a new word for you from the Greek. just as insular comes from the Latin, and yet we are living in a country at the moment where all of these things are being denigrated and diminished, even by people whose own children speak many languages. Boris Johnson, when he pulled...

Your kids out of Erasmus knew that it wouldn't affect his kids, by the way. An awful lot of Brexiters were diminishing your children's opportunities while supremely confident that their own children's opportunities wouldn't be diminished at all. You know, Jacob Rees-Morgan and Boris Johnson most obviously, knowing that their own children's access to foreign languages and foreign countries would be considerably less compromised than your children's, even as they encouraged you to vote too.

abandon and abolish your own and your children's freedom of movement 1045 is the time It is 10.48. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I don't know if he's doing it on purpose, but I did actually notice it as well. John points out. Do you realise that Thomas's news bulletins start with the words, it's been confirmed the UK is to rejoin the EU?

Erasmus scheme. Is the pause intentional? It sets my heart aflutter every time. I noticed that earlier as well, actually. I don't know whether he was just breathing. It's been reported. It's been confirmed that the UK is to rejoin the EU. This is a bit like that War of the Worlds broadcast, isn't it? By, who was it? Was it Orson Welles who did it? Based on the HG Wells book. And it was a radio play and everyone thought it was real.

No, we are not rejoining the EU. We are rejoining the EU's Erasmus Scheme, the EU's Erasmus Scheme, after Boris Johnson pulled us out of it, or at least pulled our children out of it. And it begs the question, why? In this country, are we so un-linguistic, so glottophobic? And we haven't really answered that, but my goodness me, we were right to ask. Nicole is in Brighton. Nicole, what would you like to say? Hello.

I'm currently a university student studying German. And I have the opportunity to go into schools promoting languages and speaking to them. And I believe... One of the main reasons of the decline of languages actually comes from the push of STEM subjects and linking it to jobs. So if you do a STEM subject, you're automatically more likely to get a job.

than other subjects like languages. That's the message children receive. It's not necessarily the truth. Yes. Yeah. I believe languages... especially now in the global world, is becoming increasingly more important and you get skills which you might not get from other subjects like creativity, problem solving, communication.

Why did you do it? Was it an inspirational teacher? Was it a lifelong enthusiasm? What sent you down that path when so many of your contemporaries were heading towards the STEM subjects instead? I had the opportunity to go on a German exchange in year eight, which sort of then sold it to me, sort of exploring the culture. And I've recently completed my year board, which definitely, I think...

Lots more students would enjoy it more with the funding because I know, especially speaking to other students, we struggled a lot with the funding. having to almost save up in order to go. And do we know what approach other countries do? Here's a message which is relevant. Our local grammar school used to have German up to A-level standard on the curriculum due to subsidised...

Funding from the EU, but following Brexit, the funding was cancelled and now German is no longer taught. Do we know what other countries do? Do German schools, for example, put a lot more weight on teaching English and subsidising English exchange? for their pupils yes definitely um students in germany have to learn english compulsory up until they leave school and actually i found lots of students

It could be because we're in Ireland, so we're away from different countries' borders. They have the idea of we're in Ireland. We don't need to learn languages. Everywhere speaks English. And there's some truth in that. That's why I keep using the Irish example in that the Irish recognise that they would benefit from speaking other languages as well in a way that the British don't. But I suppose we are also measurably less likely to emigrate.

And therefore, why would we bother learning another language given that we're never going to want to live in another country? And if we do, it would probably be the United States or... But my goodness me, it's such a mad thing to do, isn't it? Such a self-defeating thing to do, to limit the number of doors that you can go through or to limit the number of horizons that you can explore. And on that subject of emigration...

I didn't dream it. I didn't imagine it. The Daily Mail really did run an article under the headline at the weekend, The Great Polish Exodus. I mean, you'd just wonder, wouldn't you, whether or not they are familiar with the work of the Daily Mail over the last 15 years. But here it is. The arrival of hundreds of thousands of polls changed the face of Britain. But now they're returning home in droves for a better life.

in their low-tax booming homeland. Could there be a more damning indictment of our decline? Can anybody think of something that has happened since the... um influx of people from eastern european eastern europe to this country that might have made this country a less attractive option for people looking to broaden their horizons or to what can anyone think of anything i don't know a daily mail reader maybe something that has been done to this country since

We opened up our gates to Polish colleagues and friends. Anything happened since that might explain why the country has become measurably less attractive to them since? Yeah, that would be it. Thank you, Nicole. Sebastian's in White City. Sebastian, what would you like to say?

on the radio. Well, you are. I can confirm that you are not hallucinating. It is real and it is happening, Sebastian. Good morning. I called. Essentially, I'm from Malta and I grew up... speaking English as my first language because we were a colony and my father insisted that I should learn English first and then sort of the other languages followed. So growing up in the proximity, you learn Maltese and you learn Italian also.

So most of us grew up as bilingual or trilingual. Second nature. Second and third nature, isn't it? It's not even a challenge. It's not even a thing that you think about or talk about. Of course you will learn other languages. That's it. I'm like Maltese. facilitated that because it's such a mix of languages so you have its roots are Semitic and then you have a mix of the romantic languages being thrown in so we get to be able to think

quite quickly between Italian, French and English as well. And one of the problems here is that we've only got the brain we've got. And we've only lived the childhoods we've lived. So it would be hard for you to articulate what difference it has made to you. intellectually or professionally, but I'm going to ask you to try. Imagine what your life might have been like if you only spoke one language. How different would it be?

Right. If I only spoke Maltese, then I probably would never have been able to leave the island. Right. But since I spoke English, I got to come to university here and do really well at university here. Then, through the fact that I spoke Italian, I met one of my closest friends, who's Italian, who was studying here. And through him, I ended up meeting my wife, who's English, who, again, if I didn't speak English... So in a way, I could put you on the other side of the argument.

In terms of, well, I already speak English, why do I need to learn anything else? Because English is the language that unlocks probably the most international doors for non-English native speakers. It does. And English is, I think, one of the most beautiful languages that I've learned. I think Borges says that he writes in English because it is such a versatile language. And like Maltese, you have... you have the influences from everyone who conquered you or who came in close proximity and

How does it reach you, your sensibilities, when you encounter glottophobia, when you encounter even quite well-meaning English people or British people who just can't see the point of learning foreign languages? It's quite a bleak worldview. sad. Yeah, sad's a good word. It is, because as I said, languages have opened up so many doors to me. The fact that

I don't know who said that the fact that you can speak multiple languages mean you have multiple souls. Wow. You get to understand cultures in a way you wouldn't. A lot of the people I meet in the UK are astounded that I know Blackadder, Fawlty Towers, Monty Python, the comedy. I get the slapdick. Or Shakespeare. I know you went to watch Othello.

I did, yes. It's a library you're describing in your own brain, and my library is only in the language that I... spoke as a child i don't have any other books in my mental library except ones in english whereas you've got of course entirely different cultures opening up in front of you every time you close your eyes

That's it. Well, you're quite lucky that English is... Yeah, there's some fairly good English writers out there as well. You're right. Thank you, Sebastian. That was beautifully put. I haven't heard that line before about multiple souls. It's going to stay with me. Emma is in Stanmore with the last word on this. What's it going to be, Emma? Oh, I love that multiple souls line. Isn't it gorgeous? That's exactly how I feel. Absolutely gorgeous.

I love languages. I am completely passionate about them. I spent four wonderful years in France. And understanding a culture is all about being able to speak to people in their own language. It's completely enriching. It's completely beautiful. And it totally breaks my heart. My daughter... who's just done A-levels, did a French A-level and did fantastically as an English person without being bilingual. But it is very, very hard to do.

That has been a real lesson for me today. That's the big negative takeaway. The positive takeaway is the multiple souls. The negative takeaway is that kids with, you know, English as a second language quite often or for whom English... which isn't necessarily the mother tongue, can hack our exam system to the detriment of children who haven't been born into multilingual households. I don't think they're necessarily hacking it. They are a bit. I think it's actually our fault.

Well, the truth is because there's such small numbers doing the A-level. But it gets even more skewed. It gets even more skewed to native speakers. Yeah. Yeah, well, two things can be true at the same time. It can be our fault and it can also be a hack because I make no apology for saying this because I didn't like him very much.

One of the stupidest people I've ever met, whose mother was French, did French at A level and got an A. And he was as thick as mince. He got an A and two U's. I'll never forget that. It was a year above me at school. He got an A and two U's. To spend that kind of money on the education.

that we received at that school and to come out with two U's is absolutely extraordinary. But he got an A in French because his mum was French. He should have stayed at home with his mum and done the one. Absolutely should have stayed at home with his mum and done the one. I don't know. I hope I'm not indulging in glossophobia. I had no problem.

with him being french or half french i just had a huge problem with him being a um a character it is 11 o'clock you are listening to james o'brien on lbc and um the phone lines are still full on that doesn't show what i know sort of untapped thing that we are talking about the number of people who are Well aware of what we've been discussing and yet unable to access it for whatever reason some of them systemic some of them historic some of them quite modern

some of them philosophical and some of them very, very current, down to changes to curriculum and disproportionate representation in exam cohorts of people who aren't really learning the language, they're already very good at it. Every day's a school day. Four minutes after 11 is the time and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I just need to have a quick word with Keith about something. Could you talk among yourselves for a moment? What if...

I randomly select a winner from all the correct answers. Would that need terms and conditions? Do you know? Would it? Are you serious? Can I not just give stuff away without having to go through all the rubric and rigmarole and have terms and conditions put on the website? Oh, that's annoying. Anyway, I've got a game. There is a story in the news today.

Quite well reported, which is, and this is only really for people who are quite familiar with this programme and also the broader context of phone-in radio, the history even of phone-in radio. There is a story in the news today that is the...

absolute mothership of what I call the anti-topic so there is a story a specific story in the news today that is the epitome of a story that if we were to talk about it on the radio, we could make the phones ring off the hook, but it would be among the most boring hours of your life.

not just of your radio listening experiences, but it would be among the most boring hours of your life. And what I wanted to do was to give a copy of the new Mystery Hour travel game, which is in a tin, to whoever guessed correctly. But I can't do that because there are terms and conditions and it would be a proper competition. So I'll try and work my way around that in consultation with my crack team of colleagues and also Keith.

But the jeopardy, if you like, would be that there is a story in the news today that is the very definition of... All the things I hate about phone-ins that would make the phones ring off the hook, but wouldn't yield a single interesting call. And I wonder if you, just from your cursory contemplation of the news this morning, would be able to work out what that story is. I don't think I've ever actually seen this specific story before, but it's as if...

It's as if it assembled all of the constituent parts of a phone-in topic that was mind-numbingly dull, but would somehow also elicit. an avalanche of callers to the programme. So I'll leave that one hanging.

This is a subject, isn't it, that has really changed during the years that we have spent together. I'm going to turn your attention once again towards... ADHD or attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and not not for the most obvious reason that there is a story In the news today that involves an employment tribunal where a colleague with ADHD being described as disorganized was found to have had...

their rights violated or their rights breached. I've got a slight problem with the way that newspapers report employment tribunals. And it's not a criticism of anybody in particular, but it's highly unlikely that we get all... of the detail.

in in in a few paragraphs in a news context that is dedicated to grabbing your attention so calling a colleague with adhd disorganized was discrimination is the headline I would bet my life that there is a heck of a lot more detail to that story than the simple headline allows. But it is another example of ADHD moving into a place in public discourse that it has not previously inhabited. In fact, you can tell how big an issue it's becoming because...

Nasty columnists have started writing about how it's not real or how it's not something that we should as a society be taking seriously. If you've ever dealt with a child who has off-the-scale ADHD, then you would know that there is... There's absolutely no way on earth that they're either faking it, exaggerating it or signing up to it because they think it's fashionable. But columnists have got to columnist, haven't they?

That's not the story that I want to draw your attention to, though. It's another story involving ADHD that I find really, really interesting. And it's research from the University of Cambridge. It came out last week, but we didn't have time to get around. to it suggesting that over an eight-week period in london last year roughly half of all the people arrested arrested were found to potentially have undiagnosed ADHD. Now that's an extraordinary figure, isn't it?

A team from Cambridge University worked with the Metropolitan Police to explore the idea of offering informal screening for neurodivergence to people detained by the police, which would, of course, improve access to support and help them receive fairer treatment in the criminal. justice system, if you don't like the sound of that, it would also reduce the likelihood of them offending or reoffending.

Simon Baron-Cohen, Professor Sir Simon Baron-Cohen, who's the director of the Autism Research Centre at Cambridge, was also involved. in this investigation and suggested that screening for possible neurodivergence will allow more informed legal decision making, taking into account cognitive and communicative differences. It also helps ensure defendants

get access to legal protection and appropriate counsel. So this is fascinating to me for two reasons. The first is that I love the stories that... that grow in our garden. The garden that we share together and the garden that we till together every morning and stories that grow while we are spending our time together in the garden. Dyslexia 20 years ago was not.

widely understood or talked about much and it's grown in the time that we've spent together into something very real and something much more widely understood. ADHD is growing.

in in in front of our eyes it is it is growing as an issue there is not there are not more people with it than ever before but there are more people being diagnosed than ever before precisely because it is better understood than ever before there is a brilliant and quite beautiful analogy that i saw the other day that addresses that simple question of the difference between increased diagnosis due to increased understanding and increased testing versus the lie that there is proof that...

people are faking it or exaggerating it because so many more people are being diagnosed with it. There was a wonderful analogy and I've completely forgotten what it was. So I'm hoping you'll remember and you'll send it to 84850 or you will WhatsApp it to 0345 606097.

Somebody said it's like saying that. So saying that ADHD must be overdiagnosed or must be fraudulent because there are more people with it than ever before. More people being diagnosed with it than ever before is a bit like saying that.

Dot, dot, dot. And if you can remember what that analogy was, I may even have shared it with you at the time, then I will give you the money myself. Terms and conditions apply. So this story is fascinating to me for that reason, because it is very much one of those. issues that is growing in the garden that we share together, that we spend time in together every morning. But it's also fascinating to me because it's one of those conversations that really breaks down.

between people who know a lot and people who know next to nothing. That's what I mean about knowing children, if you do, with ADHD, who... Probably I'm on this particular scale myself, although, of course, that leaves me open to accusations from idiots that I'm only saying that because it's become fashionable. You try to make sense of things that didn't make much sense in your own childhood.

Having answers, meaningful answers to some of those endless and eternal questions is incredibly satisfying. It's like a sense of relief without boring you rigid again. For me, it was getting into trouble when I really didn't want to get into trouble and not being able to help myself and almost in the middle of doing something that would get me into trouble, feeling a sense of shame engulfed me at the trouble that was coming. I've spoken to you a few times about corporal punishment.

not corporate punishment, which I think I called it last week, but I've spoken to you a lot about corporal punishment, about being beaten as a child for being naughty. It's extraordinary how people react to that.

And it will depend slightly on age and generation. People older than me would have experienced it quite widely. Even if they weren't beaten themselves, they would have known that their classmates were being beaten. Sometimes it would even be done in front of their classmates. And then the younger you go. on this, the more disbelief there is at the idea that an adult would beat a child for talking in class or for being disruptive.

or even, to tie it in with the other ADHD story today, for being disorganised. You could get beaten at my school for being messy. For being messy, they'd beat you. And it seems to me pretty obvious. that some of the behaviours for which children are punished and have been punished through the ages were not simple matters of choice. I don't really believe in innate.

I don't really believe in bad seeds, as the phrase goes. And it begins with children being labelled naughty. That is such a sentence. It's such a life sentence. Again. It's okay if you're at a school like mine because people will put effort and energy into finding the things that you're good at and doing the things that you love. But you can disappear.

as a child dyslexia is the entry the gateway to this comprehension but um but you you can disappear as a consequence of being labeled naughty as a child that can be it uh who was it that was talking brian conley uh the the you know the entertaining genius he he was on full disclosure earlier this year and talked about being labeled as thick Being labelled as thick or being labelled as naughty from an early age can kill something in a kid that never gets resurrected.

And Brian was lucky. You know, he had supportive parents and he had this extraordinary talent, of course, as well, that would shine out in almost any circumstances. But he was labeled thick. He remembered teachers calling him thick because he was... sort of weapons grade dyslexic just couldn't understand what was sitting in front of him and i think adhd has a very very similar impact on people it puts

It puts you in positions that everybody presumes you've chosen to be in when actually you had next to no control over it at all. And that's why the question I'd like to ask you today is simple. I'd like you to tell me why.

You think half of people recently arrested by Met Police may have undiagnosed ADHD. I'd like you to tell me, drawing upon your knowledge and experience of ADHD, why it would lead... to people it would massively increase the likelihood of someone doing something that could get them arrested.

This is not about innate criminality. It's about something much more subtle and sophisticated and sympathetic than that. It's about, I think, that feeling I've described to you or tried to describe to you on a couple of occasions where... You hate yourself for being naughty, but you can't stop being naughty. I need a better word than naughty, but that's the only one I've got. And the reason I often refer to corporal punishment during these conversations is pretty simple.

It's because it was always the same kids getting beaten. So it wasn't working. I don't think I need to apologise to you for labouring this point. But it would be so obvious to anybody compassionate. or intelligent, wouldn't it? That if you are beating children for behaviour and it's the same children being beaten all the time, then it's not working. It's not changing their behaviour.

You got beaten last week for something and you're getting beaten this week for something. That last beating didn't work. It had no deterrent effect. It had no impact. Short of indulging sadistic tendencies among adult teachers, what on earth is the point of beating the same kids every time? term three four five times a term it's it's mad i could just about cobble together a defense that well it works as a it's pouring courage a les autres isn't it to tie in with the last hour um

about learning languages. It's to encourage the others. So you beat me and it means that Keith behaves because he sees me being beaten and thinks, crikey, I don't want to get beaten. I'm going to wipe my nose and pull my socks up. But that's nonsense as well. Keith would never have.

put a foot wrong or misbehaved anyway. Doesn't need to see me getting battered in order to decide that he's going to behave himself because he's capable of behaving himself. And some kids just weren't in the same way able to do it. You know ADHD and shame go together like cheese and biscuits. They really do. And I've learned this third hand. It's not in my own immediate family, but kids I love.

Kids I love the bones of have got ADHD on levels that you simply couldn't argue with. And the relationship between behavior and shame is, it's compulsive. It's like a compulsion. And you either get it or you don't. And I don't get it. Not completely. But I get it enough to know that this is a question worth asking. And it's a question you can answer by simply thinking about why. Why would...

Undiagnosed ADHD, in this case, can be diagnosed as well, of course. But why would ADHD massively increase the likelihood of you doing something for which you could get arrested? That's the question.

0345-6060973. I don't know... that you will be able to persuade people who are paid for disgusting opinions in national newspapers about vulnerable children and pretend that this isn't a very real thing or that this isn't a very... debilitating condition, but you can certainly persuade decent skeptics. You can certainly dissuade or persuade some of the generational skeptics. Well, in my day, we just called it naughty. Yeah. And in my day, we call it ADHD. What is a more helpful label?

The one that encourages understanding and treatment and improvement, or the one that actually stigmatizes a 10-year-old in ways that they will never, ever be able to remove? That's a rhetorical question, by the way. Obviously. Providing a label that encourages understanding, sympathy and improvement is infinitely superior, infinitely preferable to a label that stigmatizes like naughty or bad or uncontrollable.

So why? Just in your own words, to a compassionate, kindly sceptic, to an unconvinced, kind person, why would undiagnosed ADHD, or diagnosed ADHD, massively increase the likelihood of you getting arrested or of you doing something for which you would then get arrested. 20 minutes after 11 is the time. 0345 6060 973 is the number. A lot of wrong answers, but not, as far as I can tell, a single right answer. There is a story in the news today.

that is the very definition of what I call the anti-topic, the topic that will make the phones ring off the hook but not yield a single interesting contribution. It's not... a story that was around yesterday as Ahmed in Sheffield and Mike and Karen and David and Gillian and another David and others have suggested. It's not the story that was around yesterday about speed cameras.

um being faulty or something or giving out um incorrect tickets i mean that's up there has anybody ever got a speeding ticket that was really unfair give me a ring now boom switchboard explodes not a single interesting contributor it's even more boring than that

In fact, it's even more of an anti-topic than that, and it is in today. All right, I'll give you a clue. It's in the Times newspaper and other places as well, but it actually makes the print edition of today's Times. Is anyone going to guess it correctly? So far, nobody. But the main topic of conversation this hour, half of people recently arrested by Met Police may have undiagnosed ADHD, a study has found. You listen to that and you go, yep, I get it. And then you ring me and you tell me why.

Rob's in Brixton. Rob, what do you reckon? Hello, James. So just straight off the bat, because obviously there's a lot of people listening, I have ADHD myself, and I just want to just tell everybody to not listen to... adhd tick tock okay there's a lot of people out there trying to make it sound cute and stuff it's really difficult and that's we're not talking about what what that is so my um my my experience i have been arrested uh several times

in my youth. I'm an older wiser now. But I can look at each one of those situations. I can look back and look at what led up to me doing the thing that got me arrested. And I can see how my ADHD played a role in getting me there. I was arrested, just a couple of them. One's burglary, one's drunken disorderly.

One's assaulting a police officer. Now, they all sound, those in and of themselves, those sound really bad. Of course. But I wasn't doing those. I wasn't doing those things. Especially in my mind, I wasn't doing those. at the time. The choices I was making was not, I was not burgling a house. I was exploring what I thought was an abandoned building. I didn't assault a police officer. I pointed, pressed my finger into his chest while I was talking to him because

my brain followed that impulse to do that, didn't get the chance to be like, that's a cop, don't poke him. You know what I mean? Yes, I do know what you mean. Well, I do and I don't. I kind of could imagine myself in the foothills of some of the behaviors you describe, but I would get nowhere near the top of the mountain. And yet that's what it is. It's just your brain. It's impulse control, isn't it? It's a lack of lack of.

Impulse control. You know when you're standing at a tube station or you're walking through a restaurant and you think, what would happen if I took a chip off somebody's plate? and you know that you're not going to take a chip off somebody's plate, and yet there'll be some people who don't have that voice going, don't take a chip off that person's plate, and they'll take a chip off that person's plate, and all hell will kick off. Well, I think that's more...

those behaviours are more controlled by social pressure. Yes, of course. And a person with ADHD is very responsive to social pressure. So it's not like, oh, I have a thought, I do it. Right.

I can put it this way. ADHD basically... So a neurotypical person will weigh up potential outcomes of situations and choose their... choose their action based on what they think will get the best result or the result they they want or need um that's when they're emotionally regulated if somebody has if somebody's let's say extremely angry

then that regulation is diminished and people will act on impulse. And they'll say things that they didn't mean or later regret. That's the quickest way I can describe how ADHD informs decision-making. but it's not emotionally driven it's dopamine driven so instead of weighing up the best potential outcome my brain will weigh up the the the best source of dopamine

So I don't get to, unless I intentionally do so, take stock and go, that won't get me the result I want. My brain is telling me that is the best choice. How did you come to this clarity? Because that's the other element of the story, isn't it? Is that recognising it, diagnosing it and addressing it will...

As you said yourself, it will help you become older and wiser and minimize the likelihood of this kind of behavior. So what was your journey? So that's why I opened with... trying to move people away from Instagram and TikTok to learn about ADHD, because a lot of people, whether they buy ADHD or not, people use social media for attention and engagement, and they'll tell the cute stories.

embellish on things. I was diagnosed two years ago. I'm just about to turn 38. And I worked in a lot of industries where it wasn't...

where it wasn't a problem. So I worked in film, in front of the camera, and I worked in hospitality, nightclubs and stuff. So it was actually an advantage. Yes, I understand. It got... It wasn't until... what we're talking about um no i don't and yeah there was kind of like oh you poor sweet summer child when i said i don't have an hd they're like no you you absolutely do mate um i thought you knew um so

Getting educated is about, you know, there is research, there is so much, and for so long there's been psychological research, peer-reviewed research into how... by respected psychologists in the field explaining it. And the first, I can't remember the name of him, but he's a white boy who looks like a professor. He's a professor with glasses. Not Gabor Marte. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. He's a controversial figure. I mean, we don't need to open that.

door now i find some of his work very impressive but i don't have the investment in it that you do in some of these issues but if if we if we could nutshell it Rob, in terms of why you are now less likely to get into trouble with the police as a consequence of knowing and addressing your ADHD, how would you put that into words?

I mean, a police cell is the worst place on earth for somebody with ADHD. It's the most boring thing in the world. Yeah, but it happened five times. So something has changed in you to make sure it hasn't happened six times or ten times. How do you describe that change? Well, with age comes experience, it doesn't control you. It just makes it very, very difficult to understand.

how you're making decisions and that you are making decisions in a way that potentially is is not great because it doesn't it to you you're doing the same thing as everybody else so it doesn't make sense why you keep getting bad results Yeah, okay. And to understand it in a way, I mean, the best thing that can happen is that it is explained to you. It's a lot easier than it would ever be to work it out for yourself. Not necessarily impossible, but you mentioned videos.

There are experts working in this field. And once you make sense of this thing that you can't make sense of, then the repercussions of it become less likely. You are less likely to get caught up in that. In that cycle, again, that cycle of lack of, I would call it impulse control. You may not like that phrase, but I'm groping around in the dark. I like this from Bill. This is about you, Rob. If we were also self-aware.

The world would be a much better place, he says about you. And I'm inclined to agree. Half past 11 is the time. Thomas Watts has your headlines. It is 33 minutes after 11. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. And I mean, that was an extraordinary call from Rob. And of course, it opens up a very difficult door, which is how much...

account should be taken of neurodivergence when addressing criminality. You know, a headline that says half of people recently arrested by Met Police may have undiagnosed ADHD is quite provocative so you can immediately say well the reason why it's worth finding out and diagnosing treating or addressing the condition is because it reduces the likelihood of further

It reduces the likelihood of further incidents. But of course, how should two people be treated who've committed the same crime? If one has got ADHD and one hasn't, you would... I think struggle to persuade many people that the one with ADHD should be treated more leniently than the one without, even though...

Most of us would probably agree that they've had less agency, certainly after listening to Rob. They've had less agency over their own actions in those moments as a direct consequence of how their brain works. You can see why it's such an interesting subject. Anthony's in St. Austell. Anthony, what would you like to say? Hello, James. I got diagnosed about five, six years ago after having a bit of a breakdown.

And for me, it was a lift. It was just such a weight off my shoulders when the doctor sat me down and spoke to me. Almost like all of a sudden I just went, that's why I do that. That's why I behave like that. Wow. That's why I've done that. I'm not an idiot. I'm not violent. I'm not the guy that always gets me. That's why I do these things.

And it was, you know, I left in tears, absolutely in tears. Because for years, why have I done that? You know, waking up in a police cell again. What have I done now? Self-medicating with drink and other things. and always feeling so ashamed like what you know go out with some mates well they didn't end up in the neck did they and he didn't end up with a black eye and fighting and why is it me it's always me it's always me

And eventually from that comes like a self-hatred. Shame. Or maybe not, but a very low opinion of yourself. Shame, it's shame. You're describing shame. Shame's a horrible, corrosive, toxic.

phenomenon, isn't it? Yeah, and it snowballs. You know, and my daughter, who's 10, is incredibly... dyslexic and she's been having loads of stuff done with that and the likelihood that she's well we're pretty sure she's adhd as well and i talk to her about it all the time and it's important you don't use it as an excuse yes

It's also important that you don't make everybody else bend to the way you are. You have to fit in society. You have to make your own way in life. You can't just go, well, you know, I'll whack that bloke because I've got ADHD. You know, whatever. It doesn't work like that. No, of course it doesn't. But it's helpful to hear you say it out loud. So again, for people who just don't quite get what you're talking about, you would not...

So I'm there thinking, shall I hit that bloke? And then my internal whatever it is, machine, my computer, my brain makes it absolutely crystal clear to me that I shouldn't. But that doesn't happen to you, or it didn't happen to you back in the day. No, I just react. I would just react. Impulse control. So your impulse was not controlled. You would just do it. And then even halfway through doing it, even mid-swing, you think, oh, God, I've done it again. Yeah, and what...

What didn't help is that, you know, social anxiety, that not fitting in. So you start playing up, you know, you drink a bit more. But then people are laughing at you because...

Because, you know, I'm a funny guy and I'm being funny and everyone's laughing and I'm thinking, oh, this is good. I'm in it now and I'm having a laugh. But ultimately, I've annoyed somebody and they've turned around and told me to pipe down. And then everyone's looking at me and then you just react. You're just in it then. And then, you know, it's a snowball. And that last caller, I mean, was spot on in everything he said. How interesting. And now I'm 45, obviously got...

Got diagnosed by the doctor as well as other things. I don't take any medication for it. But what I do now is I allow myself just a moment just to stop and think. Just a moment. So if you say something, we're in an argument and you say something, instead of me being reacting and just firing back at you, what I do now is I just have a moment where I just think, you know, give myself a couple of seconds before.

I react. And you've learned that. Did someone teach you that? Is that a therapy thing or is it just that you've worked it out for yourself? It's a lot of failed relationships. Yeah, fair enough. And, you know, just, you know, you can't always be right. Tell me about it. You know what I mean? You think you're the guy that, you know, no, they're wrong, I'm right. You're in a room, everyone's wrong, I'm right.

You know, and it's just growing up and you learn. Give us an idea of how it's changed then, how your life has, I presume, improved as a consequence of these discoveries and these little tweaks and changes that you've made to yourself. Yeah, I still struggle with relationships. I still do struggle with relationships. And sometimes in a social environment, I can play up.

to get reactions. But it's not uncontrollable. Do you know what I mean? I'm very good at reading Aru. Well, maybe I'm not, but I think I'm very good at reading Aru.

I still suffer from depression and things like that. But, you know, you've just got to get through it. You can't just say to everybody... you know you've got to give me a wide berth because i'm this i'm that i talk to people and i say to people i'm not feeling right today or i'm feeling a bit down or do you know do you know what i mean you've just got to surround yourself with good people and just try and do the best you can as long as you've got that

You know on the back of your mind that it's not you. You're not some wild, crazy thing that no one can tame and you need locking up. This is a condition. You have to be a bit easier on yourself, be a bit gentler on yourself. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And the rest of us can just try a little bit harder to understand. I read you something from a mum of a seven-year-old who is fairly sure that they're...

Their child has inherited their ADHD, or one of their parents' ADHD. And this is a seven-year-old talking. Sometimes someone will say red, and my brain suddenly says, no, blue. and I know that it's red, but my mouth can only say the blue word, and I don't know how to make that stop. It's like defiance disorder, isn't it? I guess so, yeah. I think that I have my own universe and no one will ever understand what it's like inside it. It's an aversion to being told.

anything as well. Yeah, because it's visceral. It's not about facts and intellect and reasoning. It's something that you feel. You feel that something's wrong or your impulse is making you do something that doesn't actually make sense. to anybody else. Yeah, you defend yourself. You'll defend why you've done that. Instead of going, I've done it again, haven't I? Oh no, I've got to go and apologize. It will be... No, no, no, he said this. He asked for it. Yeah, absolutely. You're amazing.

I don't know what you would have been like if we'd had this conversation five years ago, but it's been an absolute privilege listening to you explain this stuff today. Thank you, mate. No, thank you. Thank you. onwards onwards and upwards 1141 is the time and and you know what a great thing it is that you will be able to recognize and and help with what you are seeing or the echoes that you're seeing of yourself in your daughter and her own

journey, her own future. Thank you, Anthony. From St. Austell to Leeds, Christian is there. Christian, what would you like to say? Morning, James. This is an answer to your question, in answer, as if there is an answer, but the point about... Criminal behaviour and ADHD. Why might ADHD be more prevalent in people who commit criminal acts? Yes. My perspective on this is I worked in special educational needs for 16 years in all.

And most recently in a construction college. So a very kind of pragmatic environment. Get your head down, learn a trade, that sort of thing. With increasing numbers of students. either with a diagnosis or with suspected ADHD. And probably more than half of my caseload of 25 students.

were engaged in some kind of criminal activity. It would be something. You'd see them on Friday. Right. And then over the weekend, they'd be chased by the police for something. You'd see them again on Monday or they got arrested for this or, you know. Yeah. And my original point to one of your team who I spoke to before was that behavior is self-medication through behavior. When you carry out certain behaviors, it induces certain brain chemistry, and that brain chemistry...

does an approximate job of what the official medications for ADHD would do. Dopamine regulation, as Rob mentioned before. So that's like a point of departure. This is why I called. Yeah. And it comes with a big hangover. like other like other dopamine releases yeah right right but come down yeah yeah um and so it wasn't

It was the impulsivity again. I mean, I almost didn't bother carrying on through with the call because the guy Robert called before explained it all so well about impulse control and dopamine regulation and so on. I wondered if I had anything to add. Oh, you definitely do because, I mean, you're observing it from the outside.

side as opposed to necessarily living it from the inside and you're also speaking about the people you used to teach with a degree of sympathy when it would be very easy to go all all daily mail on them wouldn't it and and you know why should i have any understanding or sympathy for people who are out fighting or robbing or doing things that are anti-social is the best word yeah yeah i think because implicit because it was a one-to-one role rather than teaching groups

And so there needed to be trust and therefore there needed to be confidentiality. So if you'd sort of... Well, I was often wavering. I don't do this work anymore anyway, but I was past tense, often wavering on that line between...

certain things that are said to me by a student I ought to pass up the chain of command so to speak. But then at the same time I have to maintain the student's trust. And you don't want to get them into trouble that isn't going to serve any purpose but punishment. It's a tricky one isn't it? I mean, they were lucky to have a teacher like you, I think, to be so thoughtful and so open-minded about things as well. What helped? I mean, would you...

I mean, it may be that it was too big a mountain for you to climb with the access and the contact you had with these lads and young women. But this idea of it being worthwhile... Diagnosing, being worthwhile doing this study, because recognised and addressed, these vulnerable people will be less likely to do the things that get them arrested.

So what would make somebody less likely to do the things that would get them arrested, do you think? I mean, this is a very sort of broad comment, but I'll bring it into specifics of what I used to do. It's to be understood, you know? That's like all the stuff we've had before about I'm the weird one, I was labelled the naughty kids, and you take up that label, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I could say on this one too, or maybe more things.

I used to try and educate them about ADHD. So I had information about ADHD and I'd talk them through it. So to be seen, to be understood. Yeah, to be seen. As opposed to being stigmatised and labelled. Yeah. But then on the sort of criminal behaviour thing, this is what I mean about wavering on that line. Like, as you said, there's no point grassing them up if the impact of it is just going to make things worse for them. And if it's kind of low-level stuff, I don't know.

Well, no level. I mean, let's not go into specifics. No, no, we don't have to. But it is about trying to reduce the likelihood of recidivism, of repetition of behaviour, isn't it? And that's in everybody's interest, especially, actually, the person committing the... Well, yeah, and this is why the benefit of the student and the trust and just keeping some things under my hat works.

Because then they can come of, when they're engaging in this impulsive criminal behaviour, they're just in the thrill of it, right? They're self-medicating. And that just makes sense. But then afterwards you think, oh, crap, I've done it again. Now what? if they understand adhd if they can report all this to somebody who listens to them sympathetically connects that with the adhd and they're growing understanding of it over time um and even like i i'd said to one student

who was doing a certain kind of crime, because he's not going to stop doing it. Shopping him is just going to make his life worse. What he needs to do is understand of his own account that the... I don't know, it's almost like you can apply conscience to behavior. Well, that's what Anthony said. That's what Anthony said just before you. That's that two-second pause with that voice that you listen to telling you not to do it, and you somehow have to learn to listen. Yes, and it was...

I had to. I saw fit to explain what a victimless crime was. If you have to have the thrill of criminality, don't take it out on some old lady who's restored a pension out on the street. It sounds like a daft sort of mitigation if you're still in that criminal area. But there's something of think about the consequences on another human being. If that was your nan, would you do it? You know? Yeah.

So I took that kind of approach for disbehaviour. Like, don't, you know, don't be nasty to people. But you can hear in Rob and in Anthony's voices that... repulsion at their own behavior in a way and that that that desire not to be nasty and you've articulated it really powerfully from the outside but to be understood that's the thing isn't it that's the uh

I mean, everybody wants that, but I guess the harder you are to understand and the more you struggle to understand yourself, then the more powerful other people's understanding can be. And, of course, it's the gate. through which you pass on the way to understanding yourself. Thank you, Christian. 11.48 is the time. It is 11.51. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I make no apology for being a soppy git sometimes, all right? So that analogy earlier.

about this being a garden that we tend to together. And some of my favorite conversations involve the things that are growing in front of us in real time rather than the things that we talk about that are...

established in the same size they've always been. This is very much one of those subjects. And let me read you a couple of messages that prove my point in a way. This is lovely. This is from Andrew. He writes, This hour is incredible. Such beautiful and intelligent insights. Best callers on the radio. Full stop.

and this from Brendan the listener base you've nurtured is amazing it's like a much better version of a large language model only with heart and a soul it's a large humanity model an lhm i love that brendan thank you and you know i'm just one part of it And you're the other part. And long may it continue. And on a rather lighter note, we actually have one winner. I thought that more people would get this. The question of which story in today's news is the absolute epitome.

of an anti-topic. In other words, a phone-in subject or a story that would prompt a radio phone-in in which the phones would ring off the proverbial hook, but not a single interesting contribution would be made. A good guess by about 20 people, but...

A day late. So there was a story around yesterday about speeding fines being wrongly issued as a consequence of cameras being wrongly programmed or something. I don't know. But that is really, really boring. But it would make the phones ring off the hook. This is even more.

an even better example of that and only daniel has got it right which is a shame because that would have made it really easy to decide who to give a prize to if i was allowed to give out a prize but keith won't let me because he's a spoil sport and also because there are laws and rules and regulations and terms and conditions and small print, and this is a proper grown-up radio show. But here it is. Park rangers to hand out fines to speeding cyclists.

So Wandsworth's in-house parks police have been stopping riders on Tooting Common in south-west London and issuing them with £50 fixed penalty notices. And I can tell you now... that if you were to come onto the radio and say, do you think cyclists should get speeding notes, speeding fines, or you'd say, has a cyclist ever gone really fast and annoyed you? Then your switchboard would go... Boom! Shakalak!

But you wouldn't hear a single interesting contributor to the programme. So there it is. Well played, Daniel. You know me so well. A special shout out, if that's the correct word, to the person who suggested the subject would involve nuclear fusion or nuclear fission. And quite how your brain works, I do not know. So you think that a story in the news about nuclear fission would prompt an avalanche of boring callers to a radio state. What on earth would the question be? Nuclear fission.

Tell me your thoughts on 034560609. What on earth is going on in your head? And of course, the difficulty in understanding what is going on in other people's heads informs the conversation we're currently having about ADHD. Time for one, possibly two more calls because... Hold on to your hats. PMQs is just around the corner. The last one of the year will be upon us in minutes. Before that, though, Tasha is in Staines. Tasha, what made you pick up the phone? Context.

I'm an ex-police officer, currently a teacher, but I'm also a criminologist. Rightio. And I think what we need to do is really turn this around a little bit. I'm listening to these callers and I can always...

almost a mind map in my head. I've got a daughter with ADHD as well. How we need to think about this is how many offenders don't know they have ADHD? Yes. And there's so many different... factors here take a scenario you're drunk there's disorder you're having a punch-up with your mates the officer comes along do they really need to arrest you

What if they were trained or had that experience to actually deal with that situation in a different way? To explain the behaviour to them. Why are we always having an arrest as a default? Policing isn't just about arresting. Policing is about empathy and trying to prevent the crime. And when I was an officer, there were so many occasions where, maybe from my own experience...

that you could turn a situation around simply by the way that you speak to that person and the way that you're responding to their behaviour. Whereas now, with so much of the figures culture, data... The default is arrest or the amount of officers that we have. They do a fantastic job. Sure. But they're not trained to deal with that situation. That's brilliant. You've got an offender who's reacting in to that way.

If we look at the types of offences, their fight or flight response, they don't know they have ADHD. They don't know that they're not reacting. Their response is to do with that. But the officer doesn't know how to deal with them. It can be the tone of voice. It can be where they move them to physically.

And this is to everybody's benefit, not just the potential or actual offender. It's to everybody's benefit. I'm going to read you something from a regular listener who used to be, as things go, used to be the governor. HMP Belmarsh. John Podmore has been in touch. He writes, people with ADHD, etc. are sadly easier to arrest.

They are low-hanging fruit. Their behaviour is seen as irritating and frustrating, rarely dangerous except to themselves. So they're part of a large cohort of people imprisoned because we are mad at them rather than frightened of them. We are. And if we think about another scenario, someone that's a repeat offender of burglary, theft, shoplift him. They can't hold down the job, for example.

Because they're not coping, they can't organise, they can't be timely, they speak out of turn. So their only resort is to go and steal. Because nobody is in custody after that arrest has suddenly thought, right. Is there another reason why they are a repeat offender of this type of offence? It's not just greed, it's not just drugs, it's not just alcohol.

because they simply can't hold down a job and feel that there's no other option. This is joined-up thinking, joined-up policing. It'll never catch on, Tasha. But how many times have we sat in a custody, you've arrested the same person? three times in a week, they cannot regulate themselves. And it's not working. It's not providing any service. It's not a deterrent. I mean, that is actually the adult equivalent of me asking an hour ago, why do you keep beating the same children?

In school, because it's not changing their behavior. And now you're saying, why do we keep arresting the same people for the same offenses? Because whatever it is the system is doing is not changing their behavior, improving their outcomes or enhancing their community. It's just like a weird... It's like that thing that Einstein never actually said about the definition of insanity being...

doing the same thing over and over again in expectation of a different result. Tasha, you've taken me right up to the wire. It's the only reason I'm moving on. I could listen to you for a lot longer. Extraordinary level of qualification and literally by complete coincidence, as Tasha was...

reflecting upon her time as a police officer and her current role as a criminologist and teacher, John got in touch, the former governor of HMP Belmarsh, singing from a very similar hymn sheet. I wonder what hymn sheet Kemi Badenot will be singing from today, Natasha Clark.

you were going to go with the definition of insanity is doing the same thing again. Yes, that would also work. That does work. Yeah, the final pre-MQs of the year is Among Us. Are you excited, James? Excited is a very broad, gold mouth.

wasn't quite on the ball last week, we both agreed. So it felt like, you know, potentially Kimi Bednock had a little bit of a better run. So will he have done a little bit more homework for the final one? Because this is, like I say, the final chance for him to stick the boot in a little bit of each other before we all go home for the Christmas.

break. He's got a few bits of good news to point to. Inflation being unexpectedly down. The Erasmus scheme announcement today. Lots of his backbenchers I'm sure will really welcome that. He's got the violence against women and girls strategy which has generally been quite well received by most charities.

of course, some more allegations against Nigel Farage. I wonder if there'll be a small joke to sort of poke fun at Nigel Farage in some way today because he does like to do that. What are the new ones? I've somehow missed that. There's more allegations against Nigel Farage today. More than 24... My students and staff have signed an open letter calling for him to apologise. ITV News has been speaking to some of them as well today. Gosh, how did I miss that?

I'll send it to you direct next time. I'll look it up now. For 26 of his school contemporaries now calling upon him to apologise. But of course, I mean, there was a reformed mayoral candidate yesterday who told David Lammy to go back to the Caribbean.

as his loyalties were. So this is the difficulty Farage finds himself in, is that if he apologised for saying those sort of things as a schoolboy, he'd have to fire his mayoral candidate for saying those sort of things as an adult. Exactly. And I think, you know, Jake Richards, the Labour MP and minister that was on speaking. with Andrew Marr last night sort of said it.

pretty just succinctly, you know, if this had been a Labour candidate, they would have been gone by at the end of the day. You know, Keir Starmer has taken incredibly strong action against anybody he doesn't feel is a proper candidate. And they really can put the boot into anybody in the Reform Party that they feel isn't going up.

to those standards. But Kemi Baden-Ock, I'm sure, will have a choice of topics as well. Will she do a scattergun approach like she did last week, which I think we both agreed did... did work for her quite well. She was quite effective. Topics she could use, I imagine she'll probably go on doctor strikes, won't she? You know, five day walk out again. The Tories say they want to ban this kind of strike. We've got flu season, that last minute deal with...

West Streeting failing to get over the line. Farming as well. I wonder if that might come up. Keir Starmer earlier this week at his termly appearance. at the liaison committee was asked about inheritance tax and farmers and claimed that he was aware that some farmers, according to reports, are considering taking their own lives to avoid this new tax. So pretty powerful stuff happening at that liaison.

committee. I also wonder if Kemi Bade not may talk about the reaction of the Jewish community in the wake of the Bondi beach attack in Sydney. Obviously, many of that community, many of that Jewish community has been very angry and frustrated that the government is not doing more.

in terms of action, in terms of anti-Semitism. The government, I'm told, are going to be doing an action plan later this week on anti-Semitism. I haven't been able to find out too many more details. That's according to Steve Reid, the Housing and Community Secretary. But we've heard just from the Met Police.

the last hour or so that they are going to be changing their rules around chanting at protests. And they say that is in light of recent events which have been happening around the world. So I wonder if Kemi Badenock will mention that.

There's a lot of options there. There's always a lot of options. Yeah, it'd be quite an achievement if you managed to get none of them right. Yeah, I hope so. It's like whack a mole. I'm sure one of them will pop up. We shall see. It is that time. I remind everybody that we will cross with very little ceremony or... live to the House of Commons as soon as can be better not gets to her feet and asks the first question. I suppose I mentioned this to you last week that she is...

going to end the year in a fairly good mood because she's still got her job. She has indeed. Whereas at the beginning of the year, I don't think many people would have put a large sum of money on her lasting the course. I would not have. I genuinely thought... Including Robert Jenrick. Yeah, I thought that she might get to the conference season and face it.

It's a leadership challenge and she hasn't. We did speak last week about how we thought that Kemi Baden-Ock's been a lot better at Prime Minister's questions in the last few months. You asked me last week, had Kemi Baden-Ock changed some of her top team? And I said I didn't know. The answer actually is yes, according to...

It's almost like I know what I'm talking about. You do. Did you read the article from Dan Bloom from Politico? I didn't know. Okay. Well, they have shaken up the top team. And one of the people who they've brought in was an MP, Rob Butler, who's formerly a BBC and ITV presenter. And I wonder if that might have helped. It would be gaming.

Exactly. PMQs. Yeah, absolutely. And to be fair, it has worked out pretty well. Now, you know, Tories I speak to say it's just that she's got more comfortable in the role. She's enjoying it more. She's settled in. She's obviously not facing any leadership challenge, but they have really cleared out. the top team and put a whole lot of new MPs into that leaders of the opposition role and clearly it's working. Yes indeed it is.

Whether or not it's any more entertaining, more or less entertaining for the average Joe, we have no way of knowing. A curious mixture of sort of anoraks and geeks. who follow PMQs, but you don't have to be a professional anorak or a geek to find it engaging on a weekly basis. I do always get a ton of messages of people who clearly don't listen on a weekly basis and express absolute horror and shock.

the uncouth nature of it all, the braying and the shouting. I mean, I guess the more exposed to it you are, the less shocking it is. Exactly. We watch it every week and we are not surprised to see MPs. basically shouting at each other across the dispatch box and everybody jeering and laughing and poking fun. It's pantomime politics, isn't it? Some people say it's best. Some people say it's the House of Commons at its worst. Yeah, that's really neat.

Distillation. And then they break up, do they? Tomorrow? Tomorrow's the last day of term. And they come back when? Do we know? I think it's January the 5th. Okay. So a good break. Decent break. And here it is, the final PMQs of the year.

Mr Speaker, can I thank the Prime Minister for his words on anti-Semitism. What happened at Bondi Beach was an atrocity. But words of solidarity are not enough. We know the evil we face. Islamic extremism... is a threat to western civilization it abuses our democracies and subverts our institutions it is incompatible with british values so it is not enough just to protect jewish communities we must drive islamic extremism out of this country

Mr Speaker, I would also like to send my best wishes to our armed forces, to the emergency services and to everyone who will be working over Christmas. And I would also like to take this opportunity to wish you, Mr Speaker, the House staff and all members of this House, including... including the Prime Minister, a very Merry Christmas. Mr Speaker, it is the Prime Minister's second Christmas in Downing Street and by his own admission, he's not in control.

He says nothing happens when he pulls the levers. Does he blame himself or the levers? Mr Speaker. I'll just set out what we've achieved this week, Mr Speaker. We're setting out our violence against women and girls strategy tomorrow. That is my specialist support for abuse victims and the 999 calls experts. I expect better from you. Ex-serving officer, we expect the standards of a good officer. Prime Minister. The next lever was 500 jobs protected at Grangemouth.

partnering with INEOS to safeguard the plant's future. The next Leaver was the Erasmus scheme, which is being announced later on today from January 2027. The next Leaver, Mr Speaker, the Employment Rights Bill became law.

the biggest uplift in workers' rights in a generation. I've got a whole more list, Mr Speaker. I could go on for a very long time. I'm not sure exactly what that had to do with the question, Mr Speaker. The fact is, the Prime Minister... promised economic growth promised economic growth but the only thing that's grown is his list of broken promises he promised to reduce unemployment

But yesterday, unemployment hit its highest level since the pandemic. It has gone up every single month since he came into office. Why is that? Mr Speaker, the facts are these. 350,000 people, more people in work this year. We have got the lowest inactivity rate for five... We are taking a number of measures to address this, particularly with the young unemployed. I would remind them that, under their watch, unemployment averaged 5.4 per cent, higher than it is today.

Mr Speaker, I don't know what planet the Prime Minister is living on, but unemployment has gone up every single month under him. Youth unemployment, record levels. Graduate recruitment, lowest ever. He promised that he wouldn't increase taxes on working people, but he has. Last year he increased national insurance. Last month, he froze income tax thresholds. So will the Prime Minister finally be honest and admit he broke his promise on tax?

We stabilised the economy and we bore down on the cost of living. They voted against all those measures. But, Mr Speaker, it is the season of goodwill. Let me congratulate the Leader of the Opposition. She's broken her own record since last week. Last week, 21 former Tory MPs had walked away to reform. She's broken that record.

Because this week it's gone to 22. The former vice chair has now gone. So the question is, who's next? Now, it's hard to name anyone. Mr Speaker, it's hard to name anyone. Because according to the Shadow Transport Secretary, the Shadow Cabinet is full of, he says, non-entities. That's you lot. He should know. Mr. Speaker, the Prime Minister is talking about non-entities. As he looked at his cabinet, a bunch of turkeys, they could fit right in a Bird and Matthews factory.

And he is one to talk. Last week, his MPs were calling him a caretaker prime minister. After what he's done to the economy, they should be calling him the undertaker prime minister. Let's look at what else he's promised. The Prime Minister gave his word that he would help pubs. Yet they face a 15% rise in business rates because of his budget.

Will the Prime Minister be honest and admit his taxes are forcing pubs to close? The Prime Minister knows very well that the temporary relief that was put in place during Covid has come to an end. That was the scheme they put in place. We supported it, but it was always a temporary scheme coming to an end. We have now put in place a £4 billion transitional relief. We have also taken other measures, creating hospitality zones.

greater licensing freedoms and tackling late payments. We are also bearing down on the cost of living, Mr Speaker, so more people enjoy a drink or a meal out, freezing railfares. Freezing prescription charges, £150 off energy bills, driving wages up. What did they do in relation to each of those, Mr Speaker? They voted against each and every one of those measures. Mr. Speaker, what pubs has he been speaking to? They've been barred from all of them. Let's look at another broken pubs.

I don't know why they're shaking their heads. It's not my fault they've got nowhere to drown their sorrows. Let's look at another broken promise. He promised to end the doctor's strike. He gave the doctors a 28... point nine percent pay rise what did he get in return this morning they've gone back on strike for the third time in the middle of winter in the middle of the worst flu crisis in years mr speaker

This shouldn't be allowed. We already banned strikes by the police and the army. Why doesn't he put patients first, show some backbone and ban doctors' strikes? Mr Speaker, let me be clear about the strikes. They're dangerous and utterly irresponsible. And my message to resident doctors is don't abandon patients. Work with us to improve conditions and rebuild the NHS. But, Mr Speaker, they left the NHS absolutely on its knees, waiting lists through the roof.

and confidence absolutely rock bottom. And Mr Speaker, I take no lectures for them on industrial harmony. More days were lost to strike action on their worst than any year since the 1980s. Mr. Speaker, of course he's not going to ban Doctor Strikes. He doesn't have the baubles. The trade unions didn't just buy him. They can shake their heads all they like.

We all know who's running their party and it's not him. The trade unions didn't just buy him for Christmas, they bought him for life. And this matters for all those people out there facing a difficult new year. The Prime Minister has lost control. It's not the levers that don't work.

it's him he's breaking every promise he has made he promised to bring down unemployment it's up he promised he wouldn't increase taxes they're up he promises he promised to end the doctor's strike they're on strike again Mr Speaker, he said his main mission was economic growth, but the economy is shrinking. With a year like that, is it any surprise that all his MPs want for Christmas is a new leader?

Mr. Speaker, we've got the Muppets Christmas Carol here. The defections are happening so fast that at Christmas the Leader of the Opposition is going to be left home alone. And the member for Runcorn is clearly dreaming of a white Christmas. But, Mr Speaker, we know what the Leader of the Opposition wants for Christmas. Her list to Santa is this. Dear Santa, please freeze the minimum wage.

Please push hundreds of thousands of kids back into poverty and scrap maternity leave. Merry Christmas from the Tories. Mr Speaker, what we're bringing is cheaper mortgages, new rights for workers. and lifting half a million people out of property. We have achieved more in 14 months than they achieved in 14 miserable years.

Ukraine is facing a fourth Christmas of war and loss. A Ukrainian family I met last week spoke movingly of the help and support that they had received from our community in Newport, but also of the real pain of separation. ymwneud â phobl yn ymwneudol yn ymwneudol, yn ymwneud â'r ffwrdd. Mae'r Gwasanaeth Gwasanaeth Gwasanaeth yn ymwneud â'r gweithio'r gwaithio'r gwaithiau a'r ymwneud â'r ymwneudol.

And can he also take this opportunity for them in giving the House an update on what more we can do from this government to support our Ukrainian friends? Well, can I heartily agree with her? British founders have shown incredible kindness and hospitality. We have been working by an update with our allies on frozen Russian assets to support Ukrainians in their hour of need.

Today, Mr Speaker, I can announce that we're issuing a licence to transfer £2.5 billion from the sale of Chelsea Football Club. That's been frozen, those funds, since 2022. My message to Abramovich is this the clock is ticking honor the commitment that you made and pay up now And if you don't, we're prepared to go to court so every penny reaches those whose lives have been torn apart by Putin's illegal war. Sir Ed Davey, Leader of the Liberal Democrats.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I wish you, everyone in the whole house and the whole country a merry and peaceful Christmas? And can I join the Prime Minister in expressing our horror at the appalling anti-Semitic... terror attacks and Bondi Beach on the first day of Hanukkah. Our thoughts and prayers are with the families and friends of all those who've been killed and injured in this senseless act of violence and our thoughts with the whole Jewish community.

Mr Speaker, I'm sure we've all heard British Jews explain how they no longer feel safe in this country. Many of us have friends who volunteer to put on stab vests and stand guard outside their synagogue. And at Heaton Park in October, we saw why. Antisemitism is real. It is poisonous. We must all work together to stamp it out. The Board of Deputies have called for a comprehensive...

government strategy to tackle anti-Semitism. So will the Prime Minister commit to that today and set out what concrete steps he's taking to make sure Jewish people are safe in Britain? Well, can I thank him for raising this really important issue? And it is really important that we have actions that match the words that we have expressed in response to these horrific attacks.

The actions we've taken so far are increasing the funding for Jewish security up to £28 million. I'm pleased to do that, but I'm sad to do that, having to pay more money. and to provide security for people to be at their place of worship and to go to school is a sad thing for this country to have to do. I've ordered a review of protest and hate crime laws to stop protest breeding hatred.

We're looking at new police powers to deal with repeat and targeted protests. And we've launched a review and training to tackle antisemitism in the NHS. There are other steps that we are talking to the community about taking, but all of those actions have already started. Thank you Prime Minister for that answer and I hope he will look at the proposal from the Board of Deputies. I think we can work across this House to end the scourge of anti-Semitism.

Even before today's irresponsible strike by the resident doctors, patients were facing a terrible winter crisis. Thousands have been left on trolleys in hospital corridors for hours. No privacy, no dignity, some even sorting themselves because there was no response. And there's been some tragic cases, Mr Speaker, some people even dying on those trolleys and left undiscovered for hours.

And the expectation is that this could get worse. So will the Prime Minister make this his number one priority to end this crisis? vaccination programme to stop so many people ending up in hospital with this virus and funding the social care places people need. to leave hospitals when they're ready. Can I say how unacceptable the conditions that some are enduring in our hospitals are and there's no excuse and it is our number one priority.

On vaccinations, we've had over 17 million patients vaccinated this year. That's an increase on last year, but I want to drive that up again next year because vaccinations make such a difference. patients and those who are staff within the hospitals and of course we touch non-social care. Thank you.

Mr. Speaker, and Merry Christmas to you and all your fantastic staff. And the time is 20 minutes after 12. We will pick over that with Natasha shortly, but this thought from Scott perhaps sums up one element of PMQs rather well. He writes, no one delivers a joke like... Keir Starmer at the dispatch box and for that we can all be grateful.

22 minutes after 12. PMQs is, well, the main bit of it is over. Natasha Clark, our political editor, is with us. I think you got that pretty much right, didn't you? Another sort of potpourri. I guess so many things, they all came up. Yes, well... True, but they did all come up, so I take the win.

Yeah, obviously another scattergun sort of approach. I think Kemi Baden-Ock's theme was Labour's broken promises. That was what she was trying to tie all of her answers together in talking about the doctor's strikes and talking about sort of a series of other topics.

But yes, obviously littered with several Christmas jokes in it. Which ones did you find most effective? Well, the one we missed was the best, apparently. At the very start. This was Keir Starmer before we crossed life to the House of Commons with a joke that I think he... I think someone might have pinched this from me. Mr Speaker, may I also take this opportunity to wish you, all the staff in Parliament, every member and their families across the House, a very happy Christmas.

and a little festive advice to those in reform. If mysterious men from the East appear bearing gifts— This time report it to the police. It's quite good, wasn't it? It's not, but I... Wrote four days ago in response to that dreadful woman who can't bear to see brown faces in adverts posting about a Carol concert. I wrote, it drives her mad that the fighting age magi always have to come from the East.

What's wrong with white, wise men? Why are we being cancelled? Yeah, he's definitely taken the sting out of that. There's a thing, I don't know, maybe everyone else was making the same joke at the same time and it's a coincidence, but anyway. It's no such thing as coincidences. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. You probably don't know who Bernard Matthews is. You know that I asked, I said, I don't understand this joke. And I didn't. He is synonymous with...

So it's like a massive poultry producer from Norfolk. What Keir Starmer should have known, and although I suppose I had to double check, but I was fairly confident that they were forced to close factories largely as a consequence of Brexit. So the UK poultry giant. And this is from the AI Overview. So pick a fight with them, not me. I don't read those, you know. They sometimes are really wrong.

Well, I've checked this one. Okay. And the news stories back up the AI overview because you're talking about higher costs for energy, fuel, feed, and crucially, post-Brexit changes to labour shortages, restricting EU worker access. a terribly deleterious effect upon Bernard Matthews' business. But Keir Starmer elected not to point that out. Maybe just not on the tip of his tongue. Probably doesn't know, to be fair. Who does? Well, AI had Keir Starmer as the leader of...

the opposition earlier this year. So I've now completely stopped reading AI summaries because I don't trust them anymore. But yes, Kemi Bejanot going on the idea of broken promises that she calls from this Labour government, economic growth. She talks about the unemployment. rate as well. It's fair to say that's probably going to be a bit of a thorn in the Prime Minister's side, the unemployment rate.

slowly ticking up. If it goes over 5.4%, Keir Starmer is not going to be able to say, well, under the Tories, it was far worse. It was 5.4% on average under them. If it continues to tick up anymore, he's not going to be able to have that excuse to use. And, you know, it's fair to say, you know, lots of people worried about the economy, graduate recruitment, as Kemi Bednock was talking about, his promises not to increase taxes, national insurance, freezing those income taxes at the budget.

He's got a definitely, I think, a weaker argument on the economy and she's able to sort of point the boot in. Both parties, of course, are suffering from defections at the moment. Jamie Driscoll, the former mayor, the Labour mayor, defecting to the Green Party earlier today, which is an interesting one. A bit embarrassing for Sakir Starmer.

He decided to talk about the 21 formatory MPs that have walked away to reform. He names the 22nd one. I didn't know that that was even a thing. So it wasn't 21 last week and 22 more this week? No, not 22 more. They've had the 22nd. started talking about how he thought that the shadow front bench was full of non-entities and then Kemi Baden-Ock went

Or what about you guys? Have you looked at your cabinet? That was pathetic, wasn't it? That didn't really work there. That was a real, well, I know you are, but what am I kind of moment, which you maybe would expect better in PMQ. So there have been 22 Tories defecting to Reform UK, have they? According to...

I've not written them all down. And you as the political editor of LBC and I as the presenter of the biggest show in town couldn't name the most recent, the deputy chair. I think he's referring to Jonathan Gullis, which was last week. I think that's where I thought that was last week. I thought that can't be him. That was that was ages ago in the land of reformed affections. There's usually one a week from the Conservative Party. Yes, despite, of course, this. Never trust a Tory.

Did you get that? I'll repeat it. Never trust a Tory. This is a serious point here, right? What? You've forgotten where you are. Sorry. How many former Tories have to come over to reform before people start going, hang on, I voted for you or I'm voting for you or I keep saying I'm going to vote for you because you're not like the Tories. Why are you taking... in so many former MPs. I think at some point...

Many people are going to get a little bit upset with Nigel Farage welcoming so many formatories to the fold. I just don't think it's going to last long. I would have thought so, but I suppose it adds to the veneer of respectability that he's desperate to apply to the party. But that's not why people are voting for reform.

They're not voting for them because they feel like they are a respectable party, are they? I don't know. You'd have to ask them. They don't ring me anymore. And then to Ed Davey, who was very... quiet today, very measured, very dignified, I would say, actually, in contrast, arguably, to the other two. He doesn't do pantomime politics in the same way, does he? Which is odd, because when he's out on the stump, he behaves like a court jester. Yeah, exactly. But in the chamber, it's a serious...

Davion. Very true. Yep, talking about British Jews, anti-Semitism, and is the government going to commit to a strategy? Again, I thought that was odd that Keir Starmer didn't say that when his own housing secretary has said we have a specific strategy coming as soon as this week. Keir Starmer choosing to put the boot into Abramovich, obviously those frozen assets from Chelsea Football Club's sale, which the government...

says is fully prepared to take him to court over to try and get those funds released and to give them to Ukraine instead. That's something that the government have been pushing on for quite a while. There hasn't really been any news on that. I think the last report I saw on that was about six months ago. So they're clearly... trying to put the pressure on him to act there. Davey also talking, obviously we didn't...

Didn't do our predictions on ADV, did we? But NHS strikes and hospital care, corridor care, and some really shocking sort of descriptions, people dying on corridors. Calling on the Prime Minister to do a mass flu vaccination programme to stop people ending up in hospital care did not take that opportunity, but says that 70 million people have been vaccinated, saying corridor care is our number one.

priority. Wes Streeting said last week that they are going to try and end corridor care by the end of the parliament. That seems like a very ambitious target for them. It certainly does. And that is it for another year. Parliament continues today and tomorrow, but then they will be hanging up their stockings and hoping for a visit from Santa Claus. Yeah, and they both will be hoping for a...

I think, a better year than, well, especially Keir Starmer will be hoping for a better 2026 than 2025. But, you know, for both of them, I think it's fair to say, James, these local elections that we're having in...

in May are going to be really, really tough for both of them. And I wouldn't be surprised if we're talking about leadership challenges for both political party leaders within the next six months. What a time to be alive. It's going to be great fun. We'll see you, will we, before the end of the term?

you will back in the studio lovely half past 12 is the time amelia cox has the headlines it is 12 33 and you are listening to james o'brien on lbc you know some stories just make you kind of go hang on a minute that can't be right There's a refugee processing center in Johannesburg working on behalf of the United States government has just been raided by immigration authorities.

And seven Kenyan nationals have been arrested during the operation while working illegally at a center processing applications by white South Africans who've been given priority for refugee status in the US. I don't have anything to add to that. It's just an absolutely bonkers story, isn't it? And a mark, perhaps, of how mad everything is becoming. Let's inject some sense into proceedings with...

Peter Gagan, the editor of the Democracy for Sale Substack. And before we find out why you're here today, are congratulations in order, Peter, or was I hallucinating? You weren't hallucinating, James. I think we became the first, correct me if I'm wrong, with the first Substack newsletter to win a British Journalism Award last week. And probably useful for our conversation today, it was about our investigations into dark money and British politics.

And, Mark, perhaps of how where you lead, many are still a little bit slow to follow. And you are here because Sir Keir Starmer has announced an investigation into foreign election interference following... The conviction, of course, of Nigel Farage's close friend, protégé and former leader of Reform UK in Wales for accepting bribes to promote Russian interests in the European Parliament. Before we get into the...

likelihood of this achieving what we would both like to see it achieve. What was your sort of initial reaction to the announcement? Do we file it under better late than never or were you more cynical than that?

I think I'm a bit of both. I think better late than never. I think this is an issue that we've long known we need to look at. We had the Russia report that came out from the Intelligence Select Committee years ago. We will remember, I'm sure we talked about it, and the show eventually came out.

it did cast a lot of questions about the Brexit referendum nothing was done nothing to see here so in some respects good to see something happening I do wish it hadn't been done in this very nakedly partisan political way i think that's a real problem i think it's going to damage its credibility you know it's clearly it's clearly aimed at reform and already that's the way it's been interpreted by a lot of people not just say on gb news i think that's that is that is unfortunate

Yeah, I mean, is that... If they'd announced it before the conviction of Nathan Gill, it would have landed very differently from announcing it afterwards. And yet, I suppose if they were here to defend themselves, they'd say, well, you know, we've had a major British politician jailed. for taking bribes from a Kremlin stooge, obviously we have to find out whether or not this conduct extends further.

Yeah, I think that's a good part of this. But as I said, we've known that foreign interference is a problem in British politics. In fact, we've known that our general political architecture is just not fit for practice for a very, very long time. The government knows it. That's why they brought forward an election bill.

And so it's good to see it. It's good to see it's happening. But as I say, I think given how strong Labour was about these issues in opposition, it hasn't really delivered in government. You know, it talked so much about Tory sleaze in its manifesto. It talked about...

reforming political donations etc and they haven't really done very much so far but as we say at least we're here we're talking about something's going to happen it looks like it's going to happen quite quickly in terms of a report it should be out by march so we will have something at least to talk about with some sort of concrete detail in it. And where do you want them to look? What should they be looking at and what should they be looking for, Peter?

Well, so what they've said is they're going to look at political finance and they're going to look at our laws around political finance and see whether they're strong enough and robust enough. They're going to look at potential listed contributions into things like cryptocurrency.

the funding of third-party campaigns. They're going to look at things like the Electoral Commission and its independence. These are all well and good, but I think, frankly, they don't go far enough. There's a number of big things, big-ticket items that are missing here, really. One is...

We have a political system in which you can give unlimited amounts of money to people. So we had it last week. Christopher Harbourn, who's perfectly entitled to give money, he gave £9 million to reform. It's the biggest political donation by someone who's living in the biggest...

numerical donation. He's a Thai-based multimillionaire. That's totally allowed. How that money is spent, we won't actually ever know because we only have spending caps and reported spending during general election years.

That's another big, massive loophole. Our lobbying system is a total... joke anyone can walk through it we did a big undercover investigation recently with led by donkeys which showed how easy and cheap it was to buy political access for just five grand we posed as a fake chinese company we're able to meet 10 mps in the government and a couple of government ministers that's big problem and actually coming on top of all of this one of the biggest ways in which we have foreign interference

particularly from Russia, but from others, is online and through social media. And that's where a lot of this is happening. And this isn't really going to even touch the sides on it. It looks like that's not the only part of the conversation on this. What explains the reluctance? Because, I mean, you mentioned the work that you've done. You mentioned Led by Donkeys. Byline Times, of course, have also done sterling work on this.

Sergei Christo himself, a whistleblower on very obvious, very naked attempts by Russian diplomats, in his case, to infiltrate or influence. the Conservative Party, why wouldn't there be a greater desire, a greater appetite from a Labour government to look into all of this? I mean, could it be because they're frightened of other things that might emerge?

I think my general kind of Occam's razor approach on this, what's the most likely outcome is... what i've always found is basically a general election is 650 mini general elections so every mp in parliament has won their own little general election so they know how this system works they think it's broken most of them they think it's really bad we incentivize politicians because we have

unlimited donations we incentivize politicians to get into positions where effectively if access isn't been sold some attempt some suggestion is always going to be hanging around so we kind of incentivize scandals which is a very bad way it feeds this massive distrust in our policy So even on that level, it's bad.

But part of the problem is every party that's won a general election for a very long time has taken in more money than anybody else. It happened last time with the Labour Party because everyone saw the Tories, the Tories' donations in the short campaign. we're down 90% on the 2019 general election 9-0 because people just abandon parties that look like they're about to lose power. So parties that are in power often think, we know how the system works. We can, you know, we...

The money side of it, we can make it one. So this is a bit like the system is bad, but it can't be that bad because we just won. Pretty much that. And we know how to win, so it'll work again. It's a very cynical perspective. It's one of the most cynical aspects of our politics. And I think it opens up our politics to huge, huge problems and huge potential of this kind of foreign interference.

Unless there's a willingness to do something about those big things, I do worry that this inquiry is going to find, you know, it's not going to be able to do the kind of... And that is the danger of those of us that have been following this more clearly.

closely than most is the danger of enhanced expectation, isn't it? So, for example, The Russia report published in 2020, when it was finally published in 2020 from the IS, from the Intelligence and Security Committee, that line about MI5 actively avoiding looking for evidence that Russia intervened in our democracy.

should have been broadcast from Piccadilly Circus in 30-foot-high neon lights, shouldn't it? Under Johnson, the security service, actively avoiding looking for evidence that Russia interfered in our democracy. And then Johnson coming out. and doing a lap of honour crowing about the fact that they hadn't found any evidence of Russia interfering in our democracy. So an extraordinary juxtaposition of...

positions. So those of us who would be desperate for MI5 to have a better look for evidence that Russia interfered in our democracy are unlikely to be satisfied with this. It's not going to sort of revisit or relitigate some of those rather obvious potential scandals in our very recent past.

No, it's not, frankly. I think that's a huge failing. Exactly that. If you don't look for evidence, surprise, surprise, you're not going to find it. I actually can understand the police's position because no one wants to get involved in politics.

political leadership to do that and unfortunately there's a turkey as i say there's a turkey's voting for christmas aspect to this but all it does is feed distrust and feed mistrust of our politics which is which is what the government says it cares more than anything else about so if you really care about it

think there's there's a real and there's an opportunity for an elections bill coming so it's not like we have to you know this is already happening and at the moment from what we're hearing about this elections bill they're going to be very technocratic small changes that people like me who are in the weeds will will talk about and think about but actually

the big picture isn't at the moment isn't there and that's when the government needs to act far more significantly and perhaps this inquiry will provide the kind of ammunition that the government needs but that is it it only will do that and it only will work if the government is willing to actually sit down and have take a hard look at it and make some big decisions yeah it's a neat explanation there of why perhaps they aren't um for people again who

across the facts or the recent events as you are, just let me steer you back to something else they won't be looking at properly. What would, to the uninitiated, how would you best describe? what has almost certainly happened with regard to social media, interference and influence, how Russian sponsored actors have, if you like, poisoned the well of public discourse in this country.

well we know this has been happening now for a very long time it's for over 10 years the internet research agency working out of st petersburg initially and now we are seeing just incredible number of bot accounts incredible number of pushing of and what's fascinating

pushing multiple messages that are basically there to sow discord and sow division and that was really that's been happening since before the brexit referendum we know that and it's been supercharged it's been supercharged for two reasons one of the reasons is just more of it's happening

is also changing the game on this you can do this before you have to have physical people sitting in st petersburg or in troll farms in macedonia doing this stuff you actually don't even need real people to do it anymore you can do it all with ai but at the same time the tech bar

and zeal on most of this world who himself has talked about interfering in british politics let's not forget they have open season on this and what that is doing it's also driving a new news cycle in the uk so you've seen some you know the rise of things like gb news they kind of

the way in which our general political Overton window has shifted so quickly and so fast and so polarized. We're becoming increasingly polarized. And I think you can only see that within the context of social media. And I think that's the important thing to think about as well.

When you're thinking about interference, both domestic and international, often it's not about achieving a single political outcome. We want this one thing to happen. It's about achieving division and polarization because that just weakens societies, it weakens governments, it weakens the ability.

to do anything. And you end up having, as you've seen in the last few years here in the UK, increasingly angry conversations, increasingly angry arguments. And social media has really just... absolutely supercharged and it does it at a fraction of the price it does it for for almost nothing and our unwillingness to even have that conversation to even grapple with that and we need frankly we need the culture secretary to really come out and talk about this stuff too i think there's been a real

resistance to you know i've heard some of the comments that are just seen absolutely we're not going to tell people what to what people should say and say well it's not about that it's about actually using legislation that already exists Yeah, and I mean, sometimes it feels like a lonely business, doesn't it? Pointing out that the polarity is the point. And most recent examples would include trying to portray London as some sort of...

crime-ridden hellhole, which adds to the sense of division and, of course, is now being taken up by UK politicians who've appointed themselves as sort of latter-day Lord Hawwhores. But a lot of these roads lead back to foreign interference. Almost all of them lead back originally.

to foreign interference. The problem, and I know you appreciate this, is that no one realises they've been a victim of it. Nobody thinks that their opinions are a result of, you know, St. Petersburg bot farms interfering with their Facebook page in the run-up to...

the Brexit referendum any more than somebody listening to this 100 miles outside London believes that the reason why they're convinced London is a crime-ridden hellhole is because of propaganda that's been punted by our enemies and taken up by... some of our own journalists and politicians. It's a brilliant operation, isn't it, to be clear?

Well, the extent of it, the radicalization aspect of this, because what you do is you take these things that already exist, and that's what Russia did so well. Look at the 2016 presidential election. You know, all this stuff now, we can't ever talk about Russia and Trump. But what's fascinating, if you look at what was happening, at some instances...

Russian Facebook pages were running both pro and anti Hillary Clinton protests next to each other. It was really clever and they were kicking off. There were huge conflagrations.

all what you ended up there was just discord and division so what you do is you take these nubs that already exist in our societies you know every there is always you know we don't all agree with all of each other all the time and you sit within them and you radicalize them and push them further and further and that's exactly what's happened

And we have no, there seems to be a complete unwillingness on any of our parts to kind of want to sit down and go, OK, what's happened here? And how do we unspool this? And I think, you know, unless we are willing as well to have that conversation about the role.

big tech in our politics all of this is going to be for now as well i think that is also a crucial part of this Thank you, Peter Gagan, editor of the award-winning Democracy for Sale Substack, and always a great pleasure to have you on the program for reasons that will be obvious to anyone who's just been listening to you.

for the first time uh the time is 12 48 we'll pop over the atlantic next because one of donald trump's key allies And closest colleagues, really, or some of the most senior appointments has given a succession of interviews, which have been collated into one article. which, I mean, frankly, could have been written by his harshest critic. Another extraordinary development. To add to yesterday's attempt to make some sense of his appalling, appalling abuse of...

The murdered film director, Rob Reiner, and his murdered wife, Michelle Singer Reiner, their own son now under arrest for those murders, but Donald Trump turning it into some bizarre combination of... of celebration and attack. Just a slight sense, and you always have to be wary of some of the people closest to him beginning to wake up to what he's really like. More on that after this.

It is 12.52. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Scott Lucas is the Professor of American Politics at University College Dublin. And Susie Wiles is Donald Trump's Chief of Staff. Mix all of those... things together with an attention grabbing profile in Vanity Fair magazine and you have another example of cracks appearing in the MAGA facade, although these cracks are as potentially significant as they are entertaining. Scott, give us a thumbnail sketch, if you would.

Well, thumbnail sketch is that Susie Wiles has been credited with bringing some type of stability to Trump 2.0, as opposed to the chaos of Trump 1.0. And that stability has underpinned the destruction. that the Trump administration has been able to wield at home and abroad.

So it comes as a surprise that when Vanity Fair, what effectively started off as looks like as a PR spread, all the glossy photographs of Trump's key advisors, J.D. Vance, Marco Rubio, Stephen Miller, a number of them were interviewed not just wiles with the veteran reporter chris whipple but whipple comes out and focuses on wiles because he had 11 i repeat 11 interviews with her and he recorded all of them

They were on the record. So when Wiles comes out with the following about personalities to start off with, it's damaging. Trump has the personality of an alcoholic. even though he doesn't drink that's significant because susie wiles who's the daughter of a famous sports broadcaster named pat summerall he was an alcoholic jd vance is a conspiracy theorist pam bondi is incompetent

Marco Rubio, and notice this contrast, is ideological and principled. We may come back to that in a second. Now, what Weill says on the specific, oh, sorry, and Elon Musk is an odd duck who is... hooked on ketamine. Now, just to stress, hang on, for anyone just tuning in, this is Donald Trump's chief of staff. Not us. Not us. We're not going to get in legal trouble here. This is Susie Wilde. Donald Trump's chief of staff describing Donald Trump's key consigliere and allies. Absolutely.

Now, when you link that up to the specific policies and actions that Trump has taken with his alcoholic personality, in other words, being aggressive, feeling invulnerable. always feeling that he is in command and correct. You get, for example, the destruction of the U.S. Agency for International Development, including life-saving programs like the programs against aid.

that had been developed by the George W. Bush administration. Weill says she thinks that went too far too fast, but it went ahead. When you talk about the deportations of migrants, sometimes legal migrants. mothers and children among them. Wiles thinks that that was sometimes too aggressive, but she let it go ahead. When you talk about Musk's destruction of the government,

At that point, she says, yeah, that probably went a bit too far. Although we have to remember that most destruction of government was sanctioned by Donald Trump. So what I find interesting is this juxtaposition that Wiles is willing to.

very subtly and she is a veteran operator yeah undercut the people she worked with but she still is defending what they did albeit putting her hands up and said maybe it went a bit too far too fast or i was initially aghast i mean this is the bit i don't get there's been for people not following the story she's described it as a disingenuously framed hit piece on me and the finest president white house staff and cabinet in history which is you know i mean so much yada yada

But she hasn't, as you've reminded us, been able to deny any of the details or any of the quotes. So, and this will be speculation because we may never know the answer to this question, short of her publishing some memoirs a few years hence. Why on earth would she speak like this? Just a brilliant journalist that has lulled her into a false sense of security on 11 separate occasions? Or could there be a hidden agenda? Or are we missing something? Why on earth would she talk about her?

colleagues in such an unguarded and critical fashion? And that's the huge question, which has significance beyond the damage that we talked about. Because unless Susie Wiles simply fell for the veteran journalist, Chris Whipple, who clearly told her, and who recorded every conversation, because that's Vanity Fair's standard practice, than in fact she has deliberately. planted these seeds i will also emphasize by the way that the white house has organized rebuttal yesterday every single official

came out and said, oh, he omitted, Whipple omitted vital context. As Whipple himself noted in the response yesterday, when they say you omitted context because they can't challenge your facts and you can't challenge the record.

you know that you've got them now i'm going to speculate here james and i will emphasize this is speculation of course i think susie wiles is looking to undercut certain people and she may be positioning for where she goes next in 2026 2027 and beyond and remember that before working for donald trump she worked for ron de santis the wannabe presidential candidate who failed miserably and who cut her loose

J.D. Vance does not come out well out of this. Trump does not come out well out of this. The one person who escapes damage personality wise is Marco Rubio. We are in the midst of a serious fight within the administration. for example, over Ukraine and Russia, in which you have a Vance camp and you have a Rubio camp. We also know that Vance is no fan of Rubio. Just speculation here, but I think Wiles is positioning herself.

if she is dismissed or decides to leave in the next few months. I think she's positioning herself in terms of where she goes in 26 and in 28. Gosh. Yeah, well, we'll keep an eye on that. Very briefly, if you would, because Sheila Fogarty is... raring to go. The National Review has published an extraordinary article today which has one editor describing Donald Trump as a hateful, raging lunatic with all the empathy of Jeffrey Dahmer. How significant...

Do you think those hideous comments about Rob Reiner might prove to be? They do seem to have reached parts that previous behaviors of Donald Trump's haven't reached among his own support base. I think they're corrosive. I don't think they're fundamental.

because I think the fundamental is going to be where the U.S. economy goes. But when people are feeling the pain of the economy, for Trump to go to them and say, you be loyal to me, when quite frankly, he's violated the number one rule my grandmother set for me.

you don't speak ugly he's spoken ugly for years and gotten away with it but the way that he trashed not only rob reiner but remember rob weiner's wife yeah michelle singer reiner who who were murdered as well and when he showed no compassion no sympathy and he gloated about their murders. Yeah, I think you may see even some of Trump voters peeling away now.

Thank you, Scott. Scott Lucas, Professor of American Politics at University College Dublin with that growing. I mean, it's always going to be gravity. It's just a question of how heavy. It has to become before this ludicrous character starts sinking. And we're not there yet. If you missed any of today's show, you can listen back on our free Global Player app or the new LBC app where you can stay up to date on the top stories and opinion. Put your news categories in the audience.

you want pause and rewind live radio and listen to a range of podcasts including mine it's gareth southgate on full disclosure this week one of my old-time faves download the official lbc app for free from your app store now tom sawbreak will be with you at four but now it's time for sheila fogan