Why do we keep backing insular, dishonest, ignorant politicians?

It is four minutes after ten and you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I hope you're all right. I presume you want to talk about domestic politics today. Not least because, as some bloke in the news just said, the Conservative Party is not, but of course it could be, facing an existential threat, which is of interest to anybody.

who has any interest in this country, regardless of your politics. You also have this Generic character, Honest Bob Generic, one of... Do we know what happened to him? I mean, he went from being... inadequate and not ridiculous to being inadequate and enormously ridiculous. In the space of about two minutes, was anybody paying enough attention to his ridiculous existence to actually track the point at which his little brain broke?

I honestly don't know. I probably should do. I should be the one paying attention to this sort of stuff. Speaking of domestic politics, of course, Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan will be with us in the next hour. I'd quite like to put my feet up. if that's all right with you, ease my way into the weekend. So please send in some decent questions.

by getting in touch with the program in all the usual ways. You can get your question in a little bit early on WhatsApp if you want, 03456060973. Make sure you include the word Sadiq. But that is in the next hour. This hour, we're going to look at... the domestic framework. I'm going to use that phrase again. I've got two phrases popping around in my brain at the moment. One might make you smile, the other one won't. The first is, I love talking about it, but I hate living it.

it's a variation on how I've been asking questions about how I get through the misery of doing elements of this job since about 2016 and the answer is well it's very good for business but it's bad for the soul the fact that the country keeps voting for ridiculous things and disgusting people is very good for business but it's very bad for the soul we had a brief hiatus when the Labour government got elected but I think you could fairly say that they haven't really delighted even

Perhaps they're most ardent supporters. At least they're not disgusting and or ridiculous in the way that previous administrations were. But still.

It's good for business, but bad for the soul. And that has evolved this morning into, I do rather like talking about it, but I don't like living it. In fact, the weirdest element, to be very personal for a moment, the weirdest element of this is the... I don't know if there's a German word for it, but...

I wrote a book called How They Broke Britain. If you're new to the programme, you may not know that. If you've listened to the programme for more than 30 seconds over the last few years, you almost certainly will know that. It's not bad, actually. Looking back, I'm quite proud of it. And what it does is essentially describe what has happened to this country. It's somewhat surprising to hear a character like Robert Jenrick. And I haven't got a copy with me, so I can't remember.

whether or not he appears in the book. But if he did, it would be as symptom, not cause. But let's trust symptom, really not cause, although probably 52, 48 on that one. I...

I can't remember. If you've got a copy of the paperback, actually, just check the index, will you, and see if Jenrick's actually in it. But to hear him stand up in public yesterday, or to watch it later, I was watching John Higgins at the snooker at the time, and... to describe correctly the fact that Britain was broken and that it was done during 14 years of Conservative rule was...

This is where I don't know what the German word would be. It's a bit like Schadenfreude. Do you know what I mean? What is that word when your own position is endorsed by somebody who is very near... very nearly the last person on earth who should be endorsing your position. I mean, the only thing I can think of next would be Boris Johnson coming out to blame Boris Johnson for the state of the country.

For a middling Tory to come out, albeit one that was nearly leader, for a middling Tory to come out and blame the Tory, someone who's been in Parliament, I think, for over a decade, someone to come out and blame the Tories. while having been a Tory for that entire period. I'm not going mad, am I? It's comical. It's absurd. There are now, I think, and again, you can do the homework here.

Seven members of Boris Johnson's government have gone over to Farage's outfit. Seven members. You know, never mind the old lot, meet the new lot. Seven members of... Johnson's government or government have gone over to Farage's outfit, all of whom complaining about the state of the country. I mean, what would be, can you think of an analogy for this? Like an arsonist complaining about how hot it is.

These are the people that did it. There is no analysis of UK politics over the last... probably 40 years, but certainly over the last 10 years, that doesn't lay all of the blame for the mess that we're in at the feet of, in no particular order, David Cameron, Boris Johnson, Dominic Cummings. At lesser extent, Liz Truss, go back further, you have to bring people like Rupert Murdoch into the picture and Paul Dacre at the Daily Mail. There is no analysis of British politics. I mean, so...

I think there's a very funny thing going on here. And, of course, Nigel Farage, who probably deserves more credit for Brexit than anybody else. Certainly in the terms of getting it into public discourse and turning it into something feasible and plausible, as opposed to the obvious idiocy that it was always and has now been proved to be. So there is no...

I didn't see this bit coming. I saw elements of this bit coming. Of course I did. Farage is always going to be saying there is a good Brexit, it goes to a different school. But the more senior a Tory is... the more absurd, the more disgusting, actually, let's call a spade a spade, the more disgusting it is for these arsonists, for these can carriers, for these match strikers, to somehow...

see themselves as able to claim that they are diehard opponents of arson. These are the people that set fire to our country or who cheered on the people that were doing it. And they are now up to and including Nigel Farage and the seven members of Boris Johnson's government who have def...

I keep wanting to say defecated, forgive me, who have defected. I suppose you could say yesterday that the Conservative Party defecated Robert Jenrick and Robert Jenrick defected to the Conservative Party. But these are the people that did it. all and um yeah he gets a mention in the book for painting over the murals because that's evidence of how disgusting the man was prepared to be

and presumably is. I never know. The only question I have in my mind when these people defect is, were they lying then or are they lying now? Were they lying when they said all the stuff? In his case, it would be, you know, the importance of remaining or liberal democracy or centrism or all the things he accurately said about Nigel Farage. Was he lying then or is he lying now when he pretends that he's somehow a different person from the person that said all of...

those things and and i don't understand this is the bit i don't get and don't patronize me because i have written a book about how it happens but i don't understand how it keeps happening I honestly, today, find myself, and again, this is what I mean about loving the conversation, hating the life, hating what it's doing to my country. The football analogy here is perfect, right? Your team is going through the worst imaginable period, but you really love talking about why.

You really love coming up with ideas about what the manager should do. Probably you have more interesting conversations about your football team when it's doing badly than you do when it's doing well. Am I right? Don't ask me. Kiddermists are on a massive roll at the moment. But... Politics is similar to me. And you look at, and if I say we, I mean a country in which reform are currently leading in the polls. The distillation.

of all the rottenness of the last 14 years. And not just in terms of policy. The obvious stuff, like Brexit, like Farage thinking that Liz Truss's ludicrous budget was brilliant. He said so. It's on the record. It's another one of the things that people... never seem minded to remind him of so he thinks Liz Truss is an economic genius he thinks Brexit was going to make us richer and reduce immigration all of the things that he represents are bogus dishonest racist or all of the above

And there he is leading the polls. But that's him. Now you have the people who had varying, and I suppose Nadeem Zahawi is a good example of someone who had quite a big job under the regime of arson. Under the arson regime, the arson arses, we might call them, these people are now trying to wash their hands of responsibility for what they did and jump into bed with a bloke who represents...

probably more than anyone except Boris Johnson, everything that went wrong over 14 years. And people are still minded to vote for it. Do you know that Albert Einstein probably never said... that the definition of insanity was banging it, was doing the same thing over and over again in the expectation of a different outcome. But it's a brilliant line, right? Whoever said it first deserves credit.

You do the same thing over and over again in expectation of a different outcome. I don't know how we would describe the thing this morning. Do you? Do you know how we would describe the thing? As in voting for populists who understand nothing. Voting for nativist anger and xenophobic provocation. Voting for...

Whoever the Daily Mail told you to vote for, what is this thing that we, and I use that to describe a country that currently has reform at the top of the polls, what is it that we keep doing despite it always going so horribly wrong?

0345 6060973. How do you explain it? How do you explain it? This migration of... Die-hard Tory Brexiters, whether they were pro-Brexit before the referendum or not, is actually moot. Because the self-interested ones, the most fraudulent, the most dishonest, the most venal. of them became Brexiters immediately the moment it became clear that their career would be enhanced by becoming a Brexiter.

I mean, just think about that. Think about how disgusting that is from an objective moral perspective. Something as important as membership of the European Union. I recognize the importance of membership of the European Union. I think my career might benefit from attacking the European Union. European Union now and pretending that it was a good idea to leave. Step forward, Liz Truss, Robert Jenrick, I don't know who else. And as if you need even more proof of what I'm trying to describe.

Kemi Badenot had six hours yesterday when she had an opportunity to remake the Conservative Party in the image of something that isn't identical to Nigel Farage's outfit, right? She had six hours. Do you remember when Rishi Sunak gave his speech on the steps of Downing Street? And we spent about six hours thinking, oh, he might actually rescue the party from...

this slide into, well, I mean, you could call it oblivion. The Conservative Party doesn't become... non-existent if it morphs into the reform party it's the same people it's they've just got a different name but you thought for six hours or i did that rishi sunak might be able to um or was minded to, was determined to detoxify the Conservative Party, get rid of that empty...

unintelligent, racist rhetoric that allowed people like Braverman and Patel to be propelled to the very top of the party. And then he put Braverman back in the Home Office. So we had six hours yesterday thinking, oh, he might do this. Same thing yesterday. Not yesterday, sorry. We had six hours when Sunak got into power. And we had exactly the same thing yesterday. Six hours where it looked as if Kemi, well, Kemi better not had an opportunity.

to detoxify, to almost atone for the fact that she didn't get rid of Robert Jenrick when he went full racist, when he started making his comments about the colour of people's faces in Birmingham. Something which would have got you thrown out of any conservative party from Ted Heath to Rishi Sunak, but it didn't get you thrown out of Kemi Badanox. And she had a chance to atone for that. She had a chance to make up for it. And what has she done?

She's replaced him with the bloke behind Theresa May's go-home vans, who thought it would be a brilliant idea to call a general election. which they then nearly lost to Jeremy Corbyn. That genius, that mastermind, that top bloke, that absolutely not a xenophobe. Nick Timothy, his name is, for those of you lucky enough not to know. She's given him Jenrick's old job.

So, you know, goodbye to the old crew, meet the new crew. Here's the new crew, they're the same as the old crew. And why do they keep doing it? And by they I mean we. By we I mean you. Why do we keep doing it as a country? Why do we keep putting all our chips on insular, dishonest, ignorant? increasingly racist policies and politicians, and then sitting there marvelling at the mess that they make.

And then thinking maybe we need to find someone who's even more insular, someone who's even more ignorant and someone who's even more racist. This is one of the most important questions I've asked you in a long time. And there's a little bit of me that thinks we should give Downing Street to Farage tomorrow just so that we can get...

quickly get on with the business of realizing how ridiculous that would be, how dangerous, how disgusting that would be. Best case scenario, he lasts as long as Liz Truss, the man he thinks is an economic genius. But why do we keep doing it? So Brexit was driven by nativism and ignorance. I'm sorry if you're uncomfortable with that description, but it's not an opinion. It's a fact. All right. It was driven by nativism and ignorance. Nativism in the terms of immigration.

and ignorance in terms of what membership actually meant and what leaving would actually involve. That's not an insult to people who voted for it. You have people like David Davis.

senior cabinet members who displayed their absolute ignorance of what it would mean on a daily basis. Digby Pudding Jones, who ended up, I think, did he run the CBI at one point? Didn't have a scooby-doo about what it would actually mean. These incredibly... entitled men, convinced of their own intelligence, standing up and stating in bold terms that the moon was made of cheese, that black was actually white, that up was down and everybody quieter people.

To paraphrase WB Yeats, the best lack all conviction, the worst are full of passionate intensity. Quieter people, less confident people. who actually did understand things, got railroaded, got absolutely destroyed because they didn't have the blithe confidence of the ignorant man who thinks he's a genius. The Nigel Farage is talking undiluted bills about what leaving the European Union would mean. The Boris Johnson's talking undiluted bills. The Liz Trusses.

legislating undiluted bills that anybody intelligent who could pay attention and understand issues could point out would be disastrous calamitous catastrophic And you're going to do it again. Potentially, if the polls stay as they are, people are going to do it again. People are going to think to themselves.

What we need to do is find someone even more ignorant than Liz Truss, even more populist than Boris Johnson, even more racist than Robert Jenner. What we really need to do is find someone who is thicker, more bigoted, more dangerous. than all of those people that we've pecked the house on before and let them have a go. And that is absolutely extraordinary. A large part of it, of course, is the cheerleaders.

The front pages that segue effortlessly from telling you that Liz Truss is a genius to telling you that Keir Starmer is a wrongman. The people who are still paying Boris Johnson hundreds and hundreds of thousands of pounds for his quotes opinions. And Nadine Dorries, another one who's gone from Boris Johnson's government into Nigel Farage's outfit while claiming that somehow all the mess that the country faces at the moment...

It's nothing to do with me, Gov. I was just in government. I was just in power. I was just cheerleading for Boris Johnson or Liz Truss or Brexit or austerity. And we're still there. What would make the country wake up? Listen to this. David, thank you, mate, from Brentwood. James, do you ever pause and remember that your left-wing views are in the minority? It doesn't matter how loud you shout. That's what we're talking about. There's David listening to this radio programme.

voted for Brexit, voted for Boris Johnson, believed Nigel Farage when he said Liz Truss was a genius, wants to vote for Nigel Farage, wants Nigel in Downing Street. And he still thinks. That he's not somehow responsible for the mess that the country's in by voting for liars, by voting for idiots, by voting for racists. So what are we going to do next? Where is the country now? What we need is an even bigger liar.

An even bigger idiot, an even bigger racist. And then everything will be okay. Two questions for you today. I could carry on, but I suspect it would be, well, dangerous. Why? Why does it happen? You can't dispute the analysis. Well, you can, of course you can, but I think it would be very hard to dispute the analysis. If you're looking at Johnson Trust and Brexit and thinking Farage is the answer, then you're saying we need a bigger idiot, a bigger liar, a bigger racist.

and then everything will be okay. How does that happen? That simple, psychological, political process. You back a racist, you back a liar, you back an idiot, everything goes south, everything goes wrong, and you think what we need now is a bigger racist, a bigger liar, a bigger idiot. And then the question of how does it stop? What breaks this spell that enough of the country is under?

to lead us out of the single market, to lead us into a country where Boris Johnson can be prime minister, to lead us into the mess of a Liz Trust budget. What breaks the spell? It's a question I can't answer it.

If I could, I would have accepted the pleas of my publisher and signed up to write another book. I don't know what breaks this spell. What breaks this spell? 0345 6060 973 is the number you need. So why do people keep... doing it despite the evidence that it makes everything worse except very briefly in the general election of last year and why or how does it end how

Do we break the spell? 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need. And this is not necessarily what we're up against, but, you know, David in Brentwood isn't on his own in Idiot's Corner today. This is part of the problem I'm trying to solve. So here's another text. This one's unsigned. I'm so looking forward to hearing you when Nigel gets in. You and the lefty brigade are finished. What will you win?

What will you win with someone who thinks Liz Truss is an economic genius? With someone who told you that Brexit was going to make you richer and get rid of all those foreigners that you... What is it you're going to win, mate? It doesn't... I mean...

Make any sense at all to look at what you've won. You've won everything for 10 years, except last year's general, except the general election that Keir Starmer won. And you want more of the same. The lefty brigade. Who brainwashed you? Who hurt you? It's insane, right? Just those three things. Johnson, Trust, Brexit. How did they work out for you, lads? So what are you going to do now? Oh, I'm going to go for the bloke who really, really loves all three of those things. It makes no sense.

But my challenge to you at 25 minutes past 10 this morning, make it make sense. Go on, make it make sense. And then you can tell me how we break the spell. It is 25 minutes after 10. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. The number you need is 03456060973. And remember, we love talking about it, but we absolutely hate living it.

26 minutes after 10. Chris in Bedford, just hold your horses. It turns out I've got a little bit more I want to say because the people that we're talking about don't ring me anymore. That's a shame, but they still occasionally text me. So here is the character who wrote, I am so looking forward to hearing you when Nigel gets in. You and the lefty brigade are finished. Why do people like that keep thinking that if they go for someone more dishonest, more racist, more...

ignorant then things will get better than they did the last time they went for an idiot or for a racist or for a liar and I've pressed the history button because I thought it would be interesting this is the same person Any excuse to bash the Tories? This is from a week or so ago.

Boris done the best he could at the time. Do you really think Starmer would have done better? So you've got a Boris Johnson fan who now can't wait for Nigel Farage to be prime minister. This is from November of last year. So are you saying that everyone voting for reform... is racist. Surely nearly the whole of the country that are behind reform cannot all be racist, can we? Nigel Farage is not racist. He's just standing up for real Britons. Same texter, same person.

It's not racist to hang the Union Jack. We are patriots. If the foreigners don't like it, we could do something about it, maybe. But remember, not a racist. Same bloke. God, I couldn't be married to that woman. This, I can actually remember, is when we took a call from a woman whose husband has gone down this...

particular rabbit hole and it's breaking her heart. She needs to wake up, writes the man who's definitely not racist, who loved Boris Johnson and wants Nigel Ferris to be Prime Minister because all his other... decisions and votes have gone so well. Here it is. The husband is obviously worried about blacks and foreigners. So you literally write to me to complain about being called a racist from the same account in which you're complaining about blacks and foreigners.

And, I mean, the fact your vote is worth the same as mine is a reminder of why democracy is often described as the least bad available option. And, you know, these are the people. who won in 2016, who won in 2019, who wanted Liz Truss to be Prime Minister. And now they... I don't get it.

I told you I was going to take us all the way up to the half-past news. Poor old Chris in Bradford. His biscuit's probably gone soggy. He's been dunking it in his tea for so long. That's the question, all right? Why do people keep doing it? And I'm going to say we, because it makes it more generous.

Why do we keep doing it? Daily Mail moves effortlessly from telling you that this person is a messiah to telling you that they're absolutely ridiculous. No one should have ever listened to them in the first place. And here's the new messiah for you. Britain is broken, as Robert Jenrick said yesterday. But the people who broke it are trying to blame it on anybody but themselves. And the voters, like our texters here, are going to let them. And I just...

Want to understand why? And what would break that spell? Here's Dominic Ellis with the headlines. It is 32 minutes after 10. We got the mayor in at 11 o'clock, unfortunately in a way, because I have a feeling we could carry on this conversation for the best part of three hours. Of course, when I say conversation, I use the words very, very loosely, given that nobody else has got... It's got a word in edgeways yet, which is an indication. And I know...

you forgive me for this, some of you even enjoy it, you certainly indulge me, of what's at stake. It's mad. It's absolutely bonkers. Something happened when Jenrick started describing Britain as being broken and how the Conservatives broke it. Something happened. in that, you know, as the bloke who wrote the book, How They Broke Britain, I don't think I saw clearly the point at which all the arsonists start complaining about the fire and blaming it on.

Well, who? They're colleagues, but definitely not themselves. Why do people keep doing this and how do we break the spell? Stephen is in Bishop's Norfolk. Stephen, what would you like to say? Thanks for taking my call. Eventually. You can add an eventually there if you want to. I haven't spoken to you before, but I don't want to interrupt you. Go on. I think you're right, but not quite right.

when you say that there's a spell. I think it's more of a coma, James. Yeah, maybe. I think we are politically... When you look at the amount of people in this country who actually vote, it isn't a representation of the whole country. Therefore, that must tell us something. Are we just fatigued by the politicians who over the last 30 years for this country hasn't made any money at all, which is terrible. If it was a business, it would have closed down.

to politicians that are now looking after their own interest and the interest of others. Gone are the days when we are politicians who looked after this country. I disagree with you. I genuinely disagree with you. He is not someone that it's easy to muster up an awful lot of enthusiasm for at the moment, but Keir Starmer is not motivated by venal greed.

or self-interest. He's not there out of ego. There are many members of the cabinet who have come up through politics via the trade union movement and via traditional. means through which you try and improve a lot of the ordinary working person, whether they're any good at it or not, is moot. But paint them all with the same brush actually plays directly into Farage's hands. It's just not true.

I respect your point of view, but I have to say that I think that when you see the herd moving from Tories to reform, you have to wonder where the leader of the herd is hiding in the bushes because they're trying to find him. Now, I'm not saying for one moment Boris Johnson will come back to reform, but, you know, we've landed on the moon and who would have thought that was possible? So who knows what's actually afoot? And I'm not sure... Let me push you to the precise question.

which nobody can argue with. In fact, having the history button on my text is brilliant because you might think, oh, he's exaggerating or it's ridiculous to suggest that everybody who loves Nigel Farage also loved Boris Johnson. But it's true.

It's clearly seven members of Boris Johnson's government have now moved across the reform and people think they're voting for a refreshing change or for something different. They got their Brexit. They got their Boris Johnson. They got their trust economics. They were all disasters by any measure.

And they want more of the same. Explain that to me. More of the same. And it's not about a disillusion with 30 years of status quo. It's about the three things they got that they thought they really wanted that turned to... turned to excrement in their hands, and now they've started clapping for the next dose. Why? But that's because the fundamental base is we will just eat the planet. We'll eat whatever there is, and we're not interested in what comes out the other end.

We're only interested in what's in front. I'm going to be quiet. I can tell. I'm going to be impatient with callers today because I can't answer the question myself, which means I'm going to get cross with you for not being able to fill in the gaps. There are three big wins there.

for precisely these people sending me messages saying, do you ever pause to remember that your left-wing views are in the minority? People who couldn't tell you what left-wing views are. People who couldn't tell you what it is that they believe in. They got the Brexit that they thought would be brilliant. They got the Boris Johnson who they thought was the messiah.

They got the Liz Trust budget that they thought was the answer to all of our ills. They were all disasters, and now they want the bloke who, in many ways, better embodies that hat trick than anybody else in the country. Why? Well, one, he's the best... at the moment. What's he selling? He's selling a dream, which doesn't exist. What's the dream? Snake oil. The dream is that this will be a much...

better country. It's a Trumpy dream. It's a make America great again dream. But they got the three things. This is it. It's not a criticism of you. An apology even for the... shortness of my patience but but what's the dream you've got the dream in 2016 they were dancing around the country as if they'd won the world cup 10 times

Imagine that. Within a year, they were saying, oh no, we don't talk about that anymore. I can't believe you're still going on about that. That thing we claimed would be the best thing that had ever happened to Britain. They got Boris Johnson into Downing Street. They got Boris Johnson into Downing Street.

They told us that was going to be brilliant. That was going to be incredible. He's the best. He's the business. We love Boris. How did that work out for you? They got Liz Truss's budget. All of the free... What were they called? All of the... So-called think tanks, all of the lobby groups, the secretly funded lobby groups masquerading as think tanks, have infiltrated public discourse so completely that they got Liz Truss into...

Downing Street and then started boasting about how they were the ones that were really in charge. And they got that as well. Three. Austerity you could probably make a stronger ideological case for if that is genuinely what you believe works. then well done. It didn't, but I think your belief probably is genuine rather than venal. But those three things, the unholy hat trick, three nil up, and it all went wrong. But now you want to...

You put your money on the bloke who backed all three. I find it genuinely extraordinary. Alan is impressed with it. Alan, what's going on? You know, basically, Nigel is... I'll take what you said earlier, James. He's going to win. Let's have it happen. Let's get it done. Because your book, how they broke Britain, is how they're actually going to break Britain up.

I mean, I watched a recent documentary about Yugoslavia and how it all fell apart and how it was quite violent, obviously, etc. Those won't be violent, but it will be on the economy, the fact that they won't be able to deliver James. The economy... The manufacturing base has been, you know, basically run down. We don't make enough to actually stand on our own two feet. We're in this kind of purgatory at the moment of we've left Europe and Brexit has not done enough damage.

for people to wake up and say the dream... Well, it has. They just don't know because they're not working in importing or exporting or they're only paying attention to farmers when they complain about inheritance tax, not when they complain about the so-called trade deal with Australia or other things. It's done all of the damage.

It just isn't. And that's part of the problem is that because the newspapers were almost four square behind this unholy hat trick Johnson Brexit Trust, the newspapers can't any more than Robert Jenrick can turn around and say, oh, sorry, I'm actually part of the problem. How dare I pretend?

to be part of the solution. And you're spot on, James, and we're going to have to hit the wall at some stage there. You're keeping down this track. Do we, then? Yeah, we do, because is Nigel Farage and his project stoppable?

I don't know. I mean, I'm not convinced that the next election is already over. Politics isn't incredibly... fluid and mobile thing i'm speaking very honestly as i do with brexit i didn't realize it immediately but i realized pretty quickly people are not going to recognize how misled they have been until the consequences come come into

to land and then another person Tom points out rather brilliantly tying in with what you're saying they truly believe that Boris Johnson Brexit Liz Truss and even immigration have all been undermined by the lefties I mean, even if Boris Johnson was in power, somehow the lefties were in secret. You know, even though Liz Truss was prime minister and everybody with a brain, an economic brain cell, recognized the madness of what she was doing.

It was all the fault of the lefties. She claims she was undermined by trans activists in the civil service or the deep state. So, I mean, do the idiots texting me believe in some sort of secret... A cabal of string pullers that are somehow frustrating the will of Boris Johnson, Liz Truss and Brexit. But, you know, they're searching for the bogeyman, you know, the person who's pulling all the strings in the background, etc.

They don't exist. That person doesn't exist. Of course they don't. Now I know. And I suppose Trump got into power on the back of that kind of conspiracy and then... fights furiously to actually stop all the stuff being released that the people who bought into it want to be released. I don't, I mean, how does the spell break?

is a question that's almost a little bit too frightening to contemplate. You know, the spell is now breaking in the United States of America because Donald Trump's operatives are shooting civilians, completely innocent civilians. In the face, and less importantly perhaps in the leg, they're chucking tear gas through the windows of cars containing children. You have in Minneapolis, we may hear from Simon Marks later. dystopia unfolding in real time but you'll still have people in this country

doing the old, well, Mussolini made the trains run on time. Is there nothing that Hitler could do that would make you like him? You know, is there nothing? Oh dear, Trump derangement syndrome. Do these people have eyes? Do they have ears? Can they see? And now the UK is embarked upon a similar or a comparable path. I don't understand why, but even more importantly and urgently and patriotically, I don't know how you break the spell.

Michael's in Chesterfield. Michael, what would you like to say? Hello there. Yeah, first time calling. Never called before, so thank you very much. Welcome. Thank you very much. There's two ways I see it and I think a little bit is that breaking the spell is kind of falling into the same trap. I'm going to have to get your phone line improved, and we will, because we're here until at least 11. We may return to this subject.

After Sadiq Khan has taken all your calls, which of course he can do, you can get your question to him in all the usual ways. Let's go to Chris, who's in Bedford. Chris, what would you like to say? Well, getting a word in edgeways for a start. There's two things here. Number one, you know too much. You are so well informed because it's what you do. And for heaven's sake, do not encourage...

us getting Farage into Downing Street. I'm running a business. I need this business to still be alive in two years' time. So don't encourage him. I'm not encouraging. You know I'm not encouraging him. I'm just pointing out. Well, the questions that I'm asking hinge upon the fact that people...

have been given three massive wins, Brexit, Johnson, Trust. They've all turned to dust in their hands. Maybe they need to win the next big thing as well before they'll realise that the whole project is a con, a disaster, a mess. Yeah, word in edgeways again. Don't be cheeky or I'll cut you off. Thank you, thank you. You have the power. I do. Yeah, the thing is, the reason this is happening, I think, is there's a very narrow perspective for most of the people making most of the noise.

They don't get the full spectrum of opinion. They don't have the facts. They don't understand most of it. All they see is this vague promise. And you could almost take it back to empire. And we won the war and all this jingoistic nonsense. And people of, how can I put it, limited intellectual capacity will latch onto this stuff. Hitler did it the same way. I mean, I know people say that, but it's true. My mother lived through that. And it's hard to fight. But on the other hand...

The people in the middle who will go and vote at the next election are not the people making the noise at either end of the spectrum. And I just hope that Steve Starmer, who's as dull as ditch water in the same way that John Major was, But they give you stability. And eventually, if they can just keep going, and I am as disappointed with Labour up to now as most of us have been, but they're doing the hard stuff now. They can be popular in two years' time.

People shouting for an election now, they're not going to get it. You know, 2029, as long as Starmer has put enough good stuff in place, he could win it again. And I hope he does, because, you know, I'm not... I am a socialist. I can't deny that. But it's just basic humanity. And Nigel Farage and all these people who are defecting to reform from the Conservatives, that helps Labour because it makes reform look... just more and more like what didn't work before.

But, you know, we shall see. But don't be too pessimistic. No, you're right. I mean, I think I'm not that pessimistic, but a boost of hope from the likes of you is always welcome. I think it was more angry today that the likes of Generic have the absolute... the sheer barefaced effrontery to complain about the consequences of arson when they were filling up the petrol cans. Yeah, but that doesn't matter, does it? No, it doesn't. People have forgotten what he said.

10 minutes ago, because attention span is very, very short. All he needs to do is get across what he's saying now, and people go, yeah, yeah, we'll do that. And this is what we have to fight. And I'm probably better off talking to your... slightly more right-wing presenters on LBC. No, you're not, though. Because you and I are in a room... No, but they're part of the problem. ...talking to each other whilst roll birds. No, they're part of the problem.

Well, we know that. I mean this. I mean it affectionately. But how could anybody have told you that Brexit was a good idea or that Boris Johnson was a stand-up bloke or that Liz Truss's budget was going to be good and still get, by you, filed under people who are...

susceptible to reason or capable of admitting that they were wrong. They're too busy cheerleading for Donald Trump now and Nigel Farage to recognise that the last three victories they've won have been epic, epic losses. Yeah. One little if that might be allowed. One little point on Donald Trump. No, not at all, no. This thing where he's just been awarded the Peace Prize Medal, yeah? Not exactly. He's just been given it by someone else. I think she's mocking him in the most public way possible.

And he, being a complete moron, is stupid enough to fall for it. No, she's not, sadly. She honestly... I mean, it can look like that, but she is... appealing to his ego in a real sense. She will know simultaneously that he is ridiculous and this is pathetic but she is not mocking him. She is wooing him. It looks like mockery, but it is not an act of mockery because she wants something from him and therefore she is buttering him up. But on that subject, Chris, while I have you...

Would you like to have a celebrity mastermind winner trophy on your mantelpiece next time your friends come round? Oh, no. I've just got an award from which magazine? What for? I've got that. Well, being in the top ten travel agents in the whole of the UK. This is sensational. Congratulations. And here's another thing. The Daily Mail and the Mail on Sunday.

ran it as well, so I can no longer criticise them because they're helping me. Now, if we swap awards, if I give you my Celebrity Mastermind trophy, or indeed my Broadcaster of the Year... trophy and you give me your top 10 travel agents do we then become do i then become one of the top 10 travel agents in the world because this is what donald trump seems to believe with his peace prize

Well, yeah, probably. This is lovely, though. Nice career change for me in the third act of my life. Chris, stay safe. And congratulations. Seriously, what's the name of your travel agent? Oh, well, funnily enough, Bailey's Travel. We'll do a swap. I'll do your show. You do my show. You promise you won't do long monologues because everybody hates them. Get more callers on. It's 10.49. 10.51 is the time. I think the thing that I underestimate...

And speaking to people like Chris in Bedford there, you sort of have to recognize sometimes your own naivety. I'm speaking about mine, not his. I think I've always underestimated self-interest.

you watch trump now and the people around him who know exactly what he is they know exactly what he is what he represents and and they go along with it i don't mean the media the media is a slightly different beast But in terms of politicians, Republican politicians, who would once have considered themselves to be closely allied... to the politics of George W. Bush, for example. So not necessarily something that everybody finds attractive or persuasive, but not the politics of...

of bullies and bigots. And they pretend that Trump is doing nothing wrong. I mean the old ones, not the ones he's brought in to the White House. I think about the argument that there are no sensible people left. But that's only in the inner circle. The first term, he was moderated by experience, knowledge, reality, and good sense. Moderated.

But now there's nobody in the inner circle. It's more the people on the Senate floor and the congressmen and women who know exactly what he is but who pretend that it's different. The number of his senior... appointees who now say well i'm not aware of that i don't know anything about the pardon of the honduran president on drug trafficking charges i'm afraid i'm not partied so all of the evidence of his epic hypocrisy

They just swerve now by saying, well, I don't know anything about that. I'm here to talk about this. And they end up claiming, of course, that that poor woman was somehow endangering or threatening the ICE officer that she was trying to drive away from, obviously and visibly. they end up arguing the precise opposite of the evidence of their own eyes and ears. I've always underpriced self-interest in these processes. And Robert Jenrick is our own little pound shop UK version of that, isn't he?

You sort of think, how can anybody lie straight in bed, having been a bag carrier for Boris Johnson, having flipped on Brexit quicker than you could say, I have the morals of a frog? and then turned up in Nigel Farage's outfit complaining about the consequences of governments that he was in. And the answer is self-interest blinds, it trumps, it overcomes everything.

Wake up in the morning with one priority, and that priority is self-advancement. And so much of what we're baffled by makes sense in public life. For the media, it's a business model. The Daily Mail can hop from telling you that Liz Truss is a genius to telling you that she's a reprobate in a minute because all they care about is slowing the decline of their newspapers. It used to be selling as many newspapers as possible.

And some people in the media who have backed this unholy hat-trick of Trump, Brexit. It's all four, actually, isn't it? But domestically, Brexit, Johnson, trust, they just don't care enough. It's just a job, a very well-paid job. I don't care. I'm going to pretend that Donald Trump's not done anything wrong or that if he makes the trains run on time, we can forgive all the hideousness. I don't care enough about anything. So the two problems we have.

Number one, we care too much about things. And number two, we underestimate the self-interest of other people. None of which explains the voters. who still occasionally contact me to say things like, I'm so looking forward to hearing you when Nigel gets in. You and the lefty brigade are finished. And a quick click on his account and you see massive Boris Johnson fan, massive Brexiter who hates blacks and foreigners.

Definitely not a racist. What does he think he's going to get next when he gets his fourth big victory after Brexit, after Truss, after Johnson? What's that win going to look like? And how on earth do we break this spell? Michael is in Chesterfield. Michael, what would you like to say? I love that, yeah. So from my point of view, that man you just mentioned...

Boris Johnson fan, hates blacks and all that. They're always going to be the minority and we've made it socially acceptable for them to come out. And the problem with this, I think you're falling into the same trap that, in fact, Nigel Farage pedals. He's...

With Brexit, he gave, there's one easy answer, one neat trick. We just do Brexit. Well, I think it was even you who said as soon as Brexit happens, he's going to move on to his next con, which is leaving the European Court of Human Rights. Yeah, or NATO. Although that's less likely at the moment Trump is doing it for him. Exactly. So there's two ways out of this. One is hard graft, which is admitting there's no easy answer. And you can look at that.

You know, how did we get universal suffrage in the UK? How did we get rid of rotten boroughs? How did he take on the robber barons in America? It was hard graft and constant fighting and dragging, kicking and screaming. And it's complicated. It's not an easy thing. to do. There's so many myriad of things to do, such as the cost of living, the inequality, the ability for people to just run roughshod and lie in the media and in politics so relentlessly and it being consequence free for them.

And that is the truth. It's complicated and it's hard. And there is no one easy trick that these liars keep peddling. The second one, which is the worst one, which is the one is something so horrendous and awful happening. We have to pull together. Exactly. So the last time that happened, sadly, the last time these kind of far-right views were peddled was World War II. Yes, it was. Hooray, the black shirts, remember the Daily Mail said.

And we know that Farage is a massive Vladimir Putin fan and that there are some people who have been very, very close to him who are taking money from Kremlin Stooges to promote. kremlin talking point so it would be some form and of course i did the amount of energy he dedicated to opposing the existence of a european army gets more interesting with every passing day at the moment when the necessity and importance of a european army becomes

Crystal clear. You're right. I mean, the last two calls have given me real pause for thought, actually. But there's something that unites them both. And it's the difficulty of distinguishing from. You know, you're sort of bottom scraping racist who's always loved Farage and his desperate attempt now to woo people who have historically been repelled by the bottom feeding.

racist which is why he's accepting all these failed and disgraced former Tories because compared to him they have a patina of respectability to former Tory voters or to Tory voters but we just don't know how many people are reachable. by reason. So the people texting me to, I mean, I suppose for some people, this is an interesting point, it is the dismay of people like us that is the win.

You know, it's upsetting all the right people. I don't care if my own life gets worse. At least that person on the radio will be unhappy. I don't get that psychologically, but it exists. How many people are actually reachable with reason? How many people who voted for Johnson, Brexit and believed the lies about trust, when it's pointed out to them in the right way, will feel the spell break?

I think people want empathy in the right way. I live in a former pit area. We have a heavy Brexit voting area, but when you actually talk to people individually... What they want is cost of living. What they want is a material change to their circumstances. And they don't actually care about these things as much. And what people like Nigel Farage...

offer is an easy answer. And when you start talking to them about it, it's actually realising... This is what Starmer's tried to do with some of the stuff that some Labour supporters find so difficult. He's tried to sort of say, we hear your concerns about immigration.

It's content for the con, man, compassion for the con is the mantra I've lived by for the best part of 10 years. And I was minded to think it's time to tear it up and chuck it in the bin now if you're still signing up for this stuff. You're beyond help. But our fellow voters are never beyond help, are they? Most of them. Many of them. And it's a far greater minority of those people that cannot be helped. The one with the text, you relentlessly crowing and shouting. There's not many of them.

Sadly. But they're even lying to themselves. They're literally sending me messages saying, how dare you call me racist? Two weeks after sending a message saying, well, I don't blame her. being so concerned about blacks and foreigners. I mean, it is comical. I don't know that you can reach people who are lying to themselves so completely. But the person, maybe I need to be a bit more empathetic. I mean, that person who voted for...

who voted for Boris Johnson, who believed that Liz Truss was an economic genius, because partly the Daily Mail told her that she was, or Nigel Farage told her that she was. The people who believe that Nigel Farage is the answer to their prayers currently.

When they're shown calmly and empathetically what happened last time they got what they wanted, do they change their view about what they want next? I don't know. What's extraordinary is that I did a 20-minute monologue at the top of this hour, and only at the end of it...

Have I distilled it down to that question? If you rub their faces, that's not kind or empathetic. If you really show them what happened last time they won, will they continue to think they need more of the same? Mayor of London next.

Indeed he does. But if you want him to take your calls, you have to call him. And you can. You'll get through if you're quick on 0345 6060973. The Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan, is in the studio. If you want me to put your question to him, then text it to 848... or WhatsApp it, 203456060973. But I would call. Seriously, there's no point sitting there moaning about how you can't get on. You've got probably a five-minute window in which you've got a better-than-hour, I would say, 52 to 42.

48% chance of actually getting your call through to the studio and getting your question directly to the Mayor of London. Obviously, if you can't be bothered, then A, I don't get to put my feet up for an hour, which is what this entire feature is chiefly designed to allow, and B... You don't get to complain about him not answering the question that you wanted him to answer because you failed to ask it. Welcome.

Good morning. A blatant happy new year to all your listeners. That's very kind. And the same, of course, to you. I'll start things off, then we'll go to the switchboard. Have you sent any messages of support to the mayor of Minneapolis, Jacob Frey? Yeah. So we've got a group of mayors in the UK and a few of us got together and sent him a message just over a week ago. I think his leadership.

in terms of speaking up for particularly minorities in his cities, incredibly impressive, and also speaking up for the values that are so important. Just to remind those of your listeners, who don't understand the concerns many Americans have is, if you're a person of color, if you're somebody who wasn't born in America, even if you were born in America,

the color of your skin is different to President Trump's. You're nervous about this tap on your shoulder, or worse, as we saw in Minneapolis, and this anxiety. spreading across many cities in America. I've spoken to many leaders in America and one of the reasons we sent solidarity to the mayor was because I think he's shown really good leadership speaking. to those values and speaking for those people who are a bit nervous and anxious to put their head above the parapet. I mean, you would be.

Wouldn't you? Another moment. Very nervous already. Yeah. At least the perils here. I remember in 2012 or so when Theresa May was some secretary and a chap called Nick Timothy was her advisor. There were these vans saying, go home.

going around diverse communities in London and that's in a shiver amongst many ethnic minority communities because this is our home and the impression it gives is we are the other and we don't belong and just the way uh isa behaving the aggressiveness the intimidation we saw the loss of life uh most uh recently is really scary and the idea that british politicians would want to emulate that and bring a sort of british ice to the uk should worry us all

Let's hit the phones. The first caller is from Wandsworth, a place I know very well. Mohamed, good morning. Good morning, sir. Good to speak to you. Thank you for having me. And my question to Mr. Sadiq Khan. Hello, Sadiq Khan. Hi, hi. Hi. Just recently, the GD1s have... said that the UK is going to become an Islamic nuclear country since the Labour government came into the power. And similar kind of the remarks have been given by Donald Trump about you and called you.

a terrible mayor this kind of the words he said i do not want to mention these words my question is that why the u.s administration interfering into uk domestic politics uk knows well how to run its country. And these kind of remarks to give that London has a mayor like this one, does this not mean the disrespect of the... London voters because Sadiq Khan has been elected through a democratic process. Thank you very much.

Thank you very much. Why does he have such a problem with you? Why does the whole administration have such a problem with you personally? My analysis is, firstly, I'm not sure. why they're obsessed with me, why I'm living rent-free inside their minds. I can hazard a guess. And my guess is this. There is a view some people have, which is...

there is a clash of civilizations. It's not possible to be a Westerner and a Muslim. It's not possible to be a Westerner and an ethnic minority. It's not possible to be a proud Muslim. and to be proudly British and a proud Londoner. But also when you look at London, we are progressive, we are liberal, we are diverse, and we are incredibly successful on a number of metrics.

tourism, culture, foreign direct investment, music, sports, homicide rates. We are the world's finest city, the world's greatest city in terms of reducing serious crime and so forth. And we're the antithesis. to everything they believe in. So if you're a nativist, if you believe in monoculturalism, we are proof that that's nonsense. And that's one of the reasons I suspect they attack London and they attack all we stand for. And by the way...

We see parallels with what's happened in New York, an incredibly diverse city. In my view, the second greatest city in the world. I saw the campaign against the Democratic candidate. Zohran Mamdani. And it troubles me because I'm somebody who's trying to bring people together, trying to bring communities together, sought to be a mayor for all Londoners. And I'll carry on doing that. Is it working? Well...

I mean, they would argue when you look at the results in the US presidential election. No, I mean, is the demonization of London working? Because the gulf in the recent YouGov polling between people who live here and our perceptions of how safe the city is and how great the city is and people who don't live here.

largely never visit the gulf is absolutely incredible even for people who've been following it as closely as i have so it's working right and it must impact on tourism or investment or these kind of things and they're lies here's my concern yeah one of the reasons why i spent some time uh last week talking about the evidence, the evidence, by the way, on just one metrics, since records began, the lowest murders on a per capita basis in London, safer than Paris, Berlin, Brussels, Milan.

Rome, Toronto, any state in the USA, more than two and a half times safer than New York, five times safer than LA, 12 times safer than Chicago. Unfortunately, for those people who may read it, President Trump tweet or may have certain algorithms on their phone. The narrative they're receiving is London is dangerous. There is Sharia law in London. And so my anxiety is they may decide not to come here for a holiday. They may decide not to study here.

one of our great universities, they may decide not to invest here. They may decide not to shoot a movie here. And that troubles me. And actually, those who've been to London, those who've got business in London, love it. That's one of the reasons why. JP Morgan Chase are expanding their footprint in London. Visa. are expanding their European headquarters in London. Apple, Google, and I can go on. American companies who know London love it and are expanding here. I worry, though...

Those Americans across the globe that don't know London, haven't been to London, may wrongly believe that the caricature that's been portrayed about London, the disinformation... The misinformation is true. And that's why all of us who love our capital city, who know the evidence, who are proud patriots, should talk up our city. What are you going to do about it?

Well, one of the reasons why I love coming to Speak to Seek on LBC, but also other things that we do is to, in a non-patronising way, telling the truth. educate people about what's happening in London. You know, we were the number one city in the world last year for

tourism. According to TripAdvisor, we are the best place in the world to go to. We are the sporting capital of the world, and I could go on. The number of artists come in here this summer. But do we send, I mean, I know it's all a little bit called Britannia, but do we send a sort of road show?

To New York or to Washington, D.C.? We're doing that as well. Should we not have a bigger shop window? Yeah, my deputy mayor for businesses as we speak in America, you know, promoting London. The great news is, by the way, As far as foreign direct investment is concerned, we're at record highs, and that's fantastic, and long may that continue. And we're going to carry on banging the drum for this city. By the way, things aren't perfect.

I'm the first person to recognize the challenges our great city faces. I'm not complacent. I'm the least complacent person you will find. But let's not pretend things aren't great on a number of metrics as well. It's a lad in Hebden Bridge who's unhappy with the London-centric nature of this feature. Sadiq Khan is a global politician. That's not a particular compliment. It's proved by the amount of headspace that people like Donald Trump and J.D. Vance dedicate to him.

So feel free to ask him about anything, whether it's specific to London or not, as Mohammed just did. 0345 6060973 is the number that you need. A quick word, I think. I presume you want to congratulate the president on his new Nobel Peace Prize. Well, much of it counts. What? If it's been given to you. No wonder he hates you. If it's been given to you as a sort of implicit plea not to invade your country or not to lock you up as well. Look, I think...

Generally speaking, there are lots of leaders across the globe that I think are despots, that are autocratic, that I won't shed a tear if they go. I think when you unilaterally remove a leader from a third country... It's such a dangerous president. I mean, who will be next? And I think, you know, yes, of course, many people will be pleased that the previous leader of Venezuela, Maduro, is gone. But I think we should just pause and reflect on...

what it means and it's almost like you're watching a you know a certain type of Hollywood movie where the number two does a deal with you know the CIA to take out the number one and put you in place and as a consequence you agreed to give slash sell your oil for cheap to the usa i think we should

be concerned about this. Of course, the USA is a superpower. It is a hyperpower. Of course, we've got a special relationship with the USA. Of course, we need the USA to continue to play a big role across the globe, most recently evidenced by the role they did play.

You've got to recognize this in the ceasefire in Gaza, which is really important. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be nervous and concerned and criticized when we think they do things that are wrong. Scalar 1 to 10, how pathetic is it of him to accept it? Oh, I mean, it's true to form, isn't it? I mean, you know, I'm not in favor of, generally speaking, giving out marks and stuff, but, you know, people have heard my views on this.

On with the calls. Okay, the next caller is, I think, from Campbell. I think it's Hassan. Apologies, there are three names on my screen. Hassan from Campbell, I think. Welcome to my world. It's not as easy as we make it. Look, carry on, Hassan. Hello, hello. I'm Sadiq, and good morning, James. I'm a big fan of the show. I have been living in a three-bedroom flat for the last so many years, and we are a family of six.

And we've been bidding for almost a decade, over a decade, for a suitable accommodation. And I've seen so many developments in my area. The signage of the developments is like... Cancel houses are being built. And when that finishes, it goes to shared ownership. And my question to the mayor is, what is your plan going forward for people like my family? Hassan, are you working?

Yes, I am working and my wife is working. Yeah, both of you. Two-income household, right. Look, so Hassan, I mean, I think housing is the single biggest challenge facing our capital city. I think we've got a housing crisis. There's no other way to explain that. And I'll explain...

how we got here and i'll explain the solution so frankly speaking over successive decades the supply of housing has not met the demand but it's become particularly worse over the last two three years for a variety of reasons the pandemic caused big challenges in the housing market

Brexit has led to big problems in terms of labour shortages, but also the inflation in construction. So steel's going up by 50%, concrete's going up by 54%. In London, many of our buildings tend to be taller buildings because of scarcity of space. And we're now required to have, for the right reasons, a second staircase on tall buildings that costs additional money.

and affects viability. But also the previous government introduced, rightly, a building safety regulator, but did it in a poor way, so it's led to delays. So that's led to a perfect storm that's leading to a shortage. even more of new homes being provided in London. That's the problem. What am I doing about it? So the good news is we've reached to deal with the new government for an emergency package of measures to kickstart house building in London. We're going to fast track.

permissions. We're going to improve viability by reducing the requirement in certain circumstances for affordable homes. We're going to relax without compromising on design some of the requirements on new developments. The government's also given us, by the way,

record sums of money for social housing and for support those sites that are stored. So this year you will see, Hassan, more new homes being started, in my view, than in the last two, three years. The bad news, Hassan, is it will take some years.

for supply to meet demand but The really good news is from this May, the government's new legislation around renters' rights will kick in, which will really support people like you who currently are renting in terms of quality of accommodation, in terms of security of tenure, and in terms of...

in terms of the rents of increase in rates. So short-term benefits from May with the renters' rights stuff. Medium to long-term, Hassan, you'll see some improvements in terms of house building in London. I haven't... Hassan and I have been listening to a variation of this answer for the best part of the 10 years that you've been coming into this studio. Well, the good news is until the pandemic, we brought records in terms of the most completions in London.

any time since the 1930s, every year around 45,000 until pandemic. We also broke records for the most council homes any time since the 1970s. We've 25,000. by the way, and counting. So that was our record until the pandemic, a great record that I'm incredibly proud of. On average, by the way, 10,000 more homes completed when I'm...

I've been mayor compared to Boris Johnson. The perfect storm that I explained in answer to the question is one of the reasons we've got these problems. By the way, it's a nationwide problem, not just affecting London, but it's clearly compounded in London because of the tall builds we have in London. the legacy of Grenfell as well. Let's crack on. Thank you for your call about housing, really important. The next caller is from Hackney, and it's Jennifer. Good morning, Jennifer. Good morning.

How are you? Thanks for taking the question. Pleasure. My question is on business rates. What are you going to do to help the small to medium sized businesses that are suffering at the hands of local authorities with humongous increases in business rates? The high street's already decimated. What's happened to you? Give us the detail if you can. You don't have to, but it might help. Well, I will. Basically, we've had the relief applied during the COVID times.

But then astronomical increases and where we offer space to charities, we're also being charged with that and not being given the exemption. And it's really, really devastating because a lot of families and vulnerable people need charities. to offer them space, whether it's to give them clothing, give them intervention support. But as a business owner, you've got the national insurance rises, you've got business rate rises, you've also got your rents.

I want to know what the mayor is going to do to make sure the high street doesn't disintegrate and young people don't just move to Dubai. Thanks for your question, Jennifer. I'll answer that in two ways. Firstly, thank you for being a small businesswoman. I mean, you know, it's really important to recognise that.

that more than 90% of businesses in London, I think it's approaching 95% are small businesses. I've helped run a small business. I know how stressful it is, how anxiety-driven it is, and the challenges there are in terms of running a small to medium-sized business. Two big things I can tell you which will give you hopefully some comfort is we from City Hall are investing, I think, approaching 30 million pounds.

towards our high streets. What we've done is work with the councils because they know the high streets better than we do from City Hall and the councils. in your case hackney decide how this money is used for respective high streets to improve the high street some of it could be in support in terms of business rates relief other things the councils can do with the money we're investing in uh high streets this is part of

a partnership approach with what I call the London Growth Plan going forward. The second piece of good news, which I welcome, by the way, people criticize U-turns, but I welcome this U-turn, is the government's decision to support hospitality. in relation to some of the challenges they faced, not just during the pandemic, post-pandemic as well. You've just articulated, Jennifer.

the cost of doing business. The cost of doing business is just humongous. You mentioned business rates, national insurance, wages, national minimum wage going up, et cetera. We've got to support businesses with the cost of doing business. That's why I welcome. the announcement from the Chancellor that there'll be further support given in terms of business rates relief.

uh to those businesses but i you know i i speak to business every day jennifer who are who are challenged like you are i understand that we're doing what we can from city hall to support the high street because it's really important I just wanted to also ask about financial crime in the capitals also.

I know the murders are down, but what are you also doing to make sure that the police are equipped to deal with reports on financial crime? Sure. Jennifer, before I answer you, what in particular sort of financial crime were you talking about? Thinking about fraud, they seem slow to respond and not really equipped to deal with crimes that happen really in the digital arena. Got it. Yeah. So we've had a number of examples of...

underreported of fraud that's taking place online. And so a number of things. We work really closely with the City of London Police, who are the national lead on fraud. They do a brilliant job in relation to this. And we're encouraging people. not just to make sure they do what they can to avoid being the victim of...

cyber fraud, including cyber hacking, but also supporting them as well. There's now a Met Police Service business team that supports businesses, both in terms of giving preventative advice, but also working with the businesses in terms of if they've been the victim of financial fraud. as well. Recently the Met Police had a really successful investigation. Arrests and charges have been brought in relation to crypto.

fraud and so there's a whole team now set up Jennifer to deal with this. What I can do is ask James O'Brien's team to take your details if there's any particular issue you have with case work to do with you being the victim and I can make sure that police follow that up. That's fair enough. I'll keep my end of that up, Jennifer, and you will remind me if we don't. Ken in Brighton has a question for you. James, could you please ask...

the Mayor of London, whether he is the prominent Labour figure that Nigel Farage said will be moving over to reform next week. Well, I can exclusively... You never give me any scoops. And don't think for a minute that this counts as a scoop. One of the reasons I was keen to come on today to talk to global listeners is to exclusively reveal... that I will not be joining that shower next Tuesday, led by Robert Jenner. Sorry, Nigel Farage. Did they turn you down? Can I just say...

What's remarkable, Ken, on a serious note is I understand, you know, I understand why people who are fed up with the status quo, fed up with business as usual, look to disruption. I can understand. I may not agree with them. I can understand why people voted in 2016 to leave the European Union. If you are frustrated about the poor quality public services, you can't get decent housing. You can't get decent health care. You can't get the job that you applied for.

decision makes sense. I can understand why if you think the two main parties aren't for you or any of the parties, you know, reform may be attractive. But we now have unequivocal evidence that reform... is a repository for unsuccessful failed conservative politicians. The example I give, Ken, is this. Look, if you go to a restaurant today,

You have to wait for service. You have poor quality service. The bill is ridiculous. You get food poisoning and you see cockroaches running on the floor. Would you next week go to the restaurant a few doors down with the same chef? the same staff, the same menu, the same cockroaches running on the streets. And so I now don't understand why anybody would vote for reform. I got the attraction previously.

I don't get the attraction now. And so of course we won't be joining reform. And I think those who think... reform is the answer to their problems you think again they've unveiled a mayoral candidate um for 2028 of course it's still unclear and possibly unlikely that you will be running but somebody called Leila Cunningham will be. She actually, I think, is one of the people who regularly maligns and demonises London in ways that most Londoners don't recognise.

Parts of the capital feel like a Muslim city, she has said, which ties in with the first question. She wants to ban all face coverings and believes that women wearing a burqa should be stopped and searched routinely.

I suppose you should respond to that. Well, firstly, in terms of mayoral candidates, you know, I think there were 20 last time. And so I'm looking forward to Count Binface and a few others, you know, coming forward over the next two and a half years. The last election is nearer than the next one I hasten to. Look, if you go back to the history of our great city, you go back 150 years, you can replace the word Muslim with Jewish, going back 100 years, or Irish, or West Indian.

or Polish, or in this case Muslim, or Eastern Europeans. So this is nothing new, people trying to divide our city. It's nothing new, people trying to sow the seeds of division. The point I'd politely make to anybody aspiring to be an MP, a councillor or a mayor is ask yourself the question why you want to have that job. Surely it's to bring people together. Surely it's because you recognise one of the reasons we are now...

almost without argument, the greatest city in the world. It's because of our diversity, people with multifaceted talents whose country of origin may be different. The color of the flag that their parents were born into may be different. The color of their skin may be different.

But they're Londoners. And why would you stop somebody practicing their religion? I mean, how far back do you want to go in terms of, you know, freedom of religion, freedom of expression, and so forth? These are quintessentially British rights that we're so... proud of. And so look, you know, I'm not going to tell somebody how to

I'm not going to tell somebody which place of worship to go to. I'm going to tell somebody what second, third, fourth language they can have. I'm somebody who tries to look for, you know, things we've got in common. you know, put down bridges rather than looking for reasons to divide our communities. And by the way, there are two types of politicians, those that play on people's fears and those that address people's fears. And if somebody is concerned about the other.

My job, I think, is to explain to them in an unpatternised way where they shouldn't be scared about somebody going to a different place of worship. They shouldn't be scared if somebody doesn't want to drink. They shouldn't be scared if somebody wants to grow a beard or somebody doesn't want to eat pork. And explain to them. why it's the case without trying to force them to eat pork, to stop going to a mosque or to shave their beard. Justin's been in touch. Can you confirm?

that you will not be running. And Justin adds, why can't you run again? So is it now a given that you won't be? Justin, this is not an attempt by me to try and get this campaign going for me to run fourth, fifth or sixth term. It's simply, Justin, I think it's an indulgence. for me to speak about my personal ambition rather than London's ambition. It's continuity and consistency. Londoners deserve to know whether or not you're going to be here.

for another time. Literally, some of my team are still trying to get a break from the last election that I fought. The last election is nearer than the next one, but Justin, I promise you this, ask me the same question again next year, and I'll give you an answer. When next year? when the next selection is nearer than the last one. When's that? Sometime next year. You must know. Can I have that scoop? Because I've had you in the studio for 10 years.

And I've never had one big story off you. Can I have the story about whether or not you're going to run for mayor of London? I want you to promise now, this is entirely unprofessional, self-interested and a little bit needy, but I want that story. In my defence, James, I think...

It was with you that I unveiled that I was going to run for mayor in 2015. Was it, though? I think you told the cab driver on the way. You told everyone on the tube, didn't you? I want that. Stick that on a post-it note or something like that.

Do you think it will be Labour versus reform in the capital, given the way that the country's polling seems to be going at the moment? I'm somebody who lived through, I was a member of Parliament the last time Labour was in government and we had elections in London. council elections and my experience when Labour's in government and there are all our elections in London as we do badly notwithstanding the brilliant Labour councils we have so this may

I think you will see, because we did so well four years ago, I think we won 60% of councillor seats. You will see Labour losing some seats this May. What I generally remind Londoners and those across the country is...

The way our government works is we've got a parliamentary democracy. You can't simply pull a lever and change things. You've got to pass legislation to bring changes in. So many of the reforms the new government's brought in since July 2024 are only now going to come in. So, for example... You know, improving renters' rights, improving workers' rights, bringing in breakfast clubs. Those families, more than two children, receiving additional support through the benefit system.

The childcare changes have already started. And so many of the benefits from a Labour government, you may not feel yet, but you're going to feel them pretty soon, not least in April. Your energy bill has been reduced by £150. So I think this May's elections will be challenging.

elections in in london come may 2028 i think things will have calmed down i think people have seen through reform people will have seen through the pre-used conservative party and i suspect it's not very good for democracy 2028 may well be an election where you could have, you know, one of four potential parties with a successful candidate, particularly because we're going to return to the old system of having a second preference when it comes to voting for the mayor.

Let's take another call. Thanks for that, Justin, that mischief-making. The next caller, I think, is from South London as well. I think it's from Streatham, and it could well be Anil. Good morning, Anil. Morning. So Zipcar announced in late December that at the end of 2025 there were suspending operations in London as it was not economically viable for them to continue.

They had or have the largest feats of car available for sharing. And in my view, reduced car ownership, you know, ultimately reduces pollution in London. And as someone who's clearly passionate about this and the reduction of car ownership, what... did or are you doing to help prevent them from leaving?

yeah thanks for your cracking question for those that don't know we've got we've got some really good you know car sharing um companies in uh london zip car is one of uh many and the idea is you rather than owning a car whenever you need a car you simply go along and pay for the use of this car for hours or days. So we have been meeting regularly with Zipcar. Zipcar have left every other city in Europe.

They've left Brussels, they've left Barcelona, they've left Paris, and they left them in 2019, some time ago. They stayed in the UK, but left many cities in the UK, but stayed in London. Unfortunately, for a variety of reasons that I... can't really go into on air. They are leaving London as well. We've spoken to the other operators who...

also run shared car ownerships because we're keen to support them. We've also spoken to the 32 boroughs who give up their space to these car ownerships to say, listen, FZIP car leave. Can you please, rather than replacing the space in the road with...

other forms of parking, reserve that space for other companies, and we're having good conversations with the councils who own those spaces. But they're going bust, aren't they? Well, not going bust, but they're pulling out for financial reasons. So how would anybody else slide in? Is it an area for the public sector to go in?

involved there are three or four companies that operate in this uh space in terms of but they're a private company so the other company says well there are opportunities for other companies the other other companies are quite excited in relation to taking this opportunity but the core of your question is right this encourages

people not to own cars because they know whether they ever need a car for a big shop or to go to... The blind bike's taken a chunk out of it. So there's a number of reasons why it's happened. So without breaching confidences, generally speaking... Competition is an issue in terms of e-scooters, e-bikes, great public transport, particularly in the centre of our city. The cost of fuel, you know, all these are issues and stuff.

But actually, London was the one city they were still operating in because competition is a big issue. So what's this space? Is it going to affect you, Anil? Are you an enthusiastic customer? So I use the vans a lot. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing, isn't it? Because you've got something big that you need to move around. The great thing about these things, and you'll know this, you can hire it per hour rather than going somewhere centrally and hiring a van for a day or for a week.

bed or whatever you can you can hire and stuff so they're incredibly uh you know useful um but it's another example of you know i'm afraid you know the downside of um the cost of doing business but also competition from other you know uh alternatives

Tracy Kneeling next. Just before that, the new Chinese embassy, what's the mayor's office's position on this? There was some Alicia Kearns making a very, very powerful case in the House of Commons this week for a lot more caution with regard to where it is, what it is. and whether or not it should be.

in close proximity to potential security threats and issues. So the plan and application was determined by the London Borough of Tower Hamlets. It would have come to me as the mayor. The government called it in. That's not uncommon for big, complicated applications. The government can call them in. It's usually a decision for the Secretary of State for MHCLG, who's currently Steve Reid.

For reasons that you mentioned, Alicia Keynes and others have mentioned, I suspect the decision won't just be a planning decision.

other factors come into play and you know you're alluding to i suspect national security and other concerns as uh and she was talking about crucial cables a room in the embassy being within yards of crucial cables that are crucial to our infrastructure and access to things that they shouldn't have access to um just sounding various alarm yeah listen i mean what do you something i i think i think you know

all countries should have embassies in other cities, right? Even Iran? Yeah, we've got a big embassy in Tehran, by the way. And one of the reasons of doing that is you can call the ambassador in and give him a ticking off if you're unhappy with what he or she and their country are doing, of course.

we should have representatives in other countries and they in ours so of course we need a Chinese embassy in London the decision is where it's located and stuff and that's one of the things that I mean I've not had the benefit of looking at the the merits or demerits of this application, but the government must look at all considerations and then make a decision. So another watch this space. But on that, listen, there's some in America who are giving the impression we should have...

the Chinese have an embassy in London. That's ludicrous, right? Now, of course, there are geopolitical considerations, whether it's China or Russia or Iran. But of course they should have an embassy in our capital city. The issue is whether this is the right location for it. And that's one of the reasons why I welcome the government giving due diligence in kicking the tires. And who in America is saying that? you'll have seen some of the lobbying from those close to President Trump against.

uh prime minister keir starmer and his government given permission for this embassy uh sort of a twitter talking point becomes an office i think it's the mainstream media yeah yeah the lobbying that's been taking place let's crack on

OK, the next caller is from Eileen. Tracy, thanks for your patience. Good morning. That's all right. Good morning, Sadiq. Good morning, James. Hello, Tracy. I'm just wondering if it's possible that there can be a change in legislation to ban playing music and videos out loud.

on public transport. Are you Sheila Fogarty in disguise? No, but I love Sheila and I love how the stance she takes on this. It's a particular bugbear of Sheila's but it is far from, she and Tracy are far from alone. It drives me nuts. So Tracy, can I just firstly say, the reason why I'm smirking is I've been on trains and my team have told me off for watching out aloud and not putting my headphones in in relation to some stuff on social media. So that's why I'm smiling. But look, I can see.

why it's an issue for many commuters. What we've done is working with TFL, we've put up notices on tubes and buses and elsewhere, trying to remind commuters about, you know, trying to be responsible commuters and so forth. And so, yeah, I can see why it's a bugbear of Sheila Fogarty and yourself, Tracy. So we are trying to encourage people.

to be good citizens. Wear headphones if you're watching a video or listening to music. Try and turn the volume down. By the way, whilst we're on the issue of noise on the tube, we're also trying to reduce the noise inside the carriage from some of our tube trains, the older ones.

the noise to the residents on the surface from some of our tunneling as well. And so, yeah, it's a challenge that I know there is. And all I'd say to, you know, listeners is let's all try and be, you know, neighborly when it comes to traveling on public transport. I need to ask you about a couple of things that you've put out into the discourse in the course of this week. One this morning, one yesterday. Fears about jobs for AI.

put some flesh on those bones, warning lots of people that their job could be under threat, imminent threat, existential threat. Well, artificial intelligence is a wonderful thing. We use it in, we're using it in terms of crime fighting, live facial recognition. We're using it in terms of keeping passengers safe on platforms of our stations. We're using it to find damp in homes. The NHS uses it to fast track cancer diagnosis and so forth.

I think we've got to have a serious conversation, though, about the impact on many jobs. Many jobs that currently are occupied in London, in the creative industries, in financial services. in professional services will soon be gone because of the advent of AI. And there's two things I think we've got to do is understand and learn the lessons from the lack of regulation on social media.

where we did nothing. And that's one of the reasons why you have a situation now where AI like Grok can be used to de-dress women and have sexualized images of children. Let's not make the same mistake again with AI. So there's three... points i'm making one is i think the government's got to think about regulation and step up in this area two i've announced um a task force to look into the future of work in london many white collar jobs are at risk you think about

industrialization you think about globalization the jobs that were lost were factory worker jobs uh manual jobs we're talking about the potential of white collar jobs being lost so let's think about this and work on the future of work in our city and the second thing The third point I'd make is let's also, and we'll be offering this to Londoners, free training for Londoners on AI. How you can skill up.

So you can take advantage of the advent of AI rather than being made redundant because you've not skilled up and AI has taken over your job.

It's 11.41, a proposal today to increase council tax to invest more in neighbourhood policing and crackdown. Let me do this head on because it's really important. Yes, we've celebrated this week without any way of doing a lap of honour because, you know, one death is one death too many.

One victim of violent crime is one too many. The lowest murder rates in London on a per capita basis since records began the safest global city in the world. I'm really unhappy, though, about what we call high-volume crime. You know, somebody who's got a mobile phone has their photographs, their contacts, their messages. And when it's stolen, it's just awful. When you're the victim of a personal robbery, it's just awful. And so we've made progress reducing high-volume crime.

personal robbery down. We've had doubling the size of the team in the West End, reducing theft by 25%, but it's still too high. So I've announced today that we will next year be raised in council tax by £20. The vast majority of that money, £15, will be going towards teams to target.

those who are robbing and stealing our mobile phones. Jewellery trials. Is David Lammy right to get rid of them? I think jewellery trials are an intrinsic part of... It's a simple question. It's a yes, no. It's a binary question. Is he right to get rid of some of them? there is an argument to reduce the scope of jury trial. That's why people get frustrated with politicians.

It's looking for a yes or a no, aren't it? Come on, it's a presumption in the question. I've got concerns about the proposals as they are. I'm somebody who spent 11 years being a lawyer. saw that actually what victims want is justice to happen. And the best way to get justice is your peers deciding on guilt or innocence. I've got huge respect for judges. I'm against.

Judge only trials for the most serious offences. I think drawing a line amongst those cases where there's a sentence of three years or above is the wrong line. I think there is an argument to do whatever we can to reduce the backlog. I think there are...

ways that you could reduce the backlog without removing droid trials in the blunt way the government's considering. And finally, because we're running out of time, we've mentioned the 10 years now. This is the 10th anniversary of your mayoralty this year. You came to pair in 2016.

At which point you were asked about whether or not Freemasons should declare membership of the police. And you were persuaded that they shouldn't need to. This, I think, in the aftermath of Hillsborough, wasn't it? Questions raised by the Hillsborough. scandal and inquiry. Do you support the commissioner of the Met in demanding that his members do declare whether or not they are Freemasons? I mean, you and I have listened to Daniel Morgan's son quite powerfully.

talk about his experience and what was clear in that awful case um was uh concerns around freemasons and freemasonry and i fully support uh the commissioner what he's saying is actually you know, quite vanilla. He's saying, not you can't be a Freemason, but if you are, declare that you're a Freemason. And I think that's perfectly reasonable. And I'm surprised that the Met Police Service has been taken to court. So you support the commissioner? Okay.

And that's it for another, well, who knows how long. It's an irregular. Well, hopefully the next time on, well, I can promise you the next time I'm on, I'll still be a Labour Mayor. Yeah, you have a huge story for me. Do you have any idea who it is that's defecting? You must have speculated a bit.

I think everyone is speculating a bit in relation to who it possibly could be. All I'd say in a polite way to... Who do you reckon? Go on. Who would you put... Listen, if you're somebody who is a Member of Parliament and... Won't be a Member of Parliament. And so that Labour manifest, I don't see how you can possibly join. It'll be one of the people that the media go to who doesn't really represent Labour, but they want to pretend that they do. I'd say Morris Glassman.

Well, let's wait and see. Listen, all I say is this. You've got a Labour government getting on with the business of trying to address real challenges people face or people selling you pipe dreams. I don't know what I prefer.

Sadiq Khan, Mayor of London, many thanks indeed. The time now is 11.45. 11.49 is the time you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I'm interested.

in the potential existential threat to the Tory party, but not enough to return to the territory of Robert Jenrick's defection. But do remind me next week that that's something that we might want to have a look at. I want to talk about something um completely different now if i may and it is about a an interesting suggestion an interesting military suggestion and i want to confine my conversation to people who are or have been

in the military. And I want to establish a couple of things before we do that. And the first is that I can get a little bit dewy-eyed in this sort of territory. I don't know why. It flies in the face of many of my other... prejudices or problems. I have an... a close to unquestioning admiration for members of the military. And that's daft because any group of human beings is just as likely to contain wrong-ins or simply, you know, incompetence or corrupt.

or laziness as any other collection of human beings. But there's something about signing up for the military that gives you the mother of all head starts in my personal estimation of you. And I want to make that clear. because I'm not sure it should. You know, there are some people on the left who almost go in the opposite direction. They think that by dint of signing up for the armed forces, you automatically become a tool of colonialism and imperial

aggression. And I can understand the intellectual case for that argument as well. But I can only really tell you about the contents of my own conscience. And I have... a fondness, a regard for the military in general and military veterans in particular that perhaps, I don't know whether or not it flies in the face of some of my other views and opinions.

But it's there, and I want to establish that first and foremost. And the second thing I want to establish is the fact that I think this sounds a little bit desperate, but I want to be wrong. retired troops aged 55 to 65 and this is in the times which sadly is lurching On some mornings, ever closer to the nonsense that the Daily Mail has been, but not by coincidence either. They've hired a former deputy editor of the Daily Mail to edit it.

But it may be called to rejoin the military. If it was in some newspapers, it would make you think, well, there's absolutely no chance whatsoever of that ever happening. But I think on this occasion, it actually fits. and can get filed under plausible or possible. Retired troops aged 55 to 65 may be called to rejoin the military under new powers aimed at making it easier to mobilise tens of thousands of veterans.

So if you're in your 60s and you're a retired troop, you could be called up to rejoin. The strategic reserve is the group that you would be in, raising the age limit from 55 to 65 because we are essentially poised to become a... A nation ready for war. This is an announcement from the Ministry of Defence, and it will see former armed forces personnel on call for an extra decade.

I sometimes confine contributions to this programme to the qualified. Obviously, this is the kind of subject that lends itself to that. But I'm not going to do that for reasons that I'll explain shortly. I... in the first instance, want to hear from people who are caught in the middle of this. There are two questions here. One is, what do you think about it?

I'm very nearly, I was 54 this week, actually. So one more year from now, and I would be smack in the middle of this, smack at the beginning of this constituency. And I, you're going to laugh your head off at me now. But I think I could do a job for them at 55. I mean, it depends entirely on the individual, doesn't it? I don't know what job. I'd be like Robin Williams in Good Morning Vietnam, wouldn't I?

That would be quite a good... Good morning, Dagenham! I could do the job for you there. I reckon I could probably do a little bit of military intelligence as well, but obviously I wouldn't be able to tell you. Or if I did tell you, I'd have to kill you. But...

I'm fascinated by age. I'm fascinated by it. We had a caller the other day who was talking about old people, and then when she went on a bit longer, we realised she meant a 30-year-old. Age is such a mad concept, isn't it? I'm going to sound a bit like that Paul Whitehouse character in the first show.

Brilliant. But it's an insane concept. Sometimes now, and this must happen to you, I got a lovely message yesterday about those little milestones that are evidence of how the world sees you and how completely different it is.

from how you see yourself. I wish I could remember your name, but thank you, because I do keep intending to form a better collection. Told somebody on a phone call, on a customer service phone call, that she was 61. And the person on the other end of the phone responded, oh, bless your heart. 61! Oh, bless your heart. And so, the age we are...

is meaningless because you could find two people of the same age. I think Keanu Reeves is older than Nigel Farage. You can find two people of the same age who are so completely generationally diverse that the number becomes utterly meaningless. You then have the age you are and the age you feel. This is a particularly interesting area as well because you probably think that you look or appear.

considerably younger than you actually do whereas in reality you may appear older so there's a weird sort of psychological hypnosis that goes on here and then of course you've got the question of how you see yourself compared to how other people see you So you could sit here at 60 and say, so Marc Francois probably thinks he could do a job for the military reserve, doesn't he? And yet the rest of us probably think that he would struggle.

depending on what that job was. So I don't think you can confine it to people in the catchment area. I think everybody can have a view on this because if you're aged between 55 and 65... you will know whether or not you would be of any use. And they're not going to let anybody sign up, are they? I don't imagine. You'd have to go through some sort of process. And even if you were on call because you'd only recently retired, if you put 13 stone on since you retired and you were...

being psyched out for the front line, they'd probably say thanks, but no thanks. I don't know. I don't know. But the two questions, if they're not immediately obvious, are the meta, the sort of micro and the macro. So what do you think about this? And then the question that is potentially even more interesting is why are they doing it? I mean...

They are telling us up to a point why they're doing it, but knowing what you know, why are they doing it? The Defence Secretary can currently compel all non-officer veterans of the Army RAF. to take up arms during a crisis or national emergency if they've left within the past 18 years and are under the age of 55. It's six years for the Navy, but that's going up to 18. And the threshold at which he will be or she will be able to compel every non-officer veteran of the army, the RAF...

or the Navy, will be 65 years old. So if you have left within the past 18 years and you're under 65, the Secretary of State for Defence could call you up to... And then... I'm afraid my ignorance becomes clear because the only word I can think of is fight. They would call you up to fight. So there's three areas here that I need your help with because one of the things that...

those of us who live on Civvy Street don't really understand about the armed forces, is how big an operation it is and how many different things you do. So if you are over 55... What would you be called up to do?

i.e. what job were you doing before you knocked it on the head less than 18 years ago because that will slightly change the idea that we're sitting here thinking that we're going to have geriatric rambos running around or i suppose in sort of lazy journalistic tropes 101 you'd start talking about Dad's Army now or Mr. Mannering. But, I mean, if anything, it would be Grandad's Army almost in that category. But, of course, that...

makes a mockery of the reality of the military, where you're just as likely to be operating a radio as you are to be operating a gun. 03456060973, what would you be called up to do? number one number two how do you feel about that what is the psychological relationship with being a veteran and being on call

It's something I didn't know about until today. I had no idea that the threshold was 18 years. So I presume, but I'm obviously putting my hand out for you to tell me, I presume it's one of those things you don't really think about. I don't imagine it's ever happened, has it, really? Certainly not on scale, where somebody who has retired from the military in the last 18 years is called up to serve, is ordered in a way, compelled to...

rejoined by the Secretary of State for Defence. It would only happen at a time of war. Did it happen? I don't think it would have happened during the Falklands, would it? Or Gulf War II or any of those things. So question number one, what would you be called up to do? Question number two, would you still be up for it? Would you still be up to it? And question number three, which is one that everybody can answer, is why are they doing this? Some of the answers to that question will be obvious.

Some will not. And underpinning that question is the suspicion that it all sounds a little bit desperate. So what would you be doing? How would you feel about that? Stroke, would you be up to it? 03456060973. Why is the government doing it? And should, I'm afraid to bring Dad's army into the conversation, should we actually panic, Pike, about what this says about our broader military capability? Go on, fill your boots.

It is three minutes after 12, and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. It does happen. It has happened before. It happened, I think, with Iraq, according to one of my texters, and indeed...

with the Falklands. Does it mean that you live in a sort of state of fear? I'm getting some fascinating texts through, actually. I'll share some of those with you as soon as I can. I... have a bunch of questions and i may add to the list but it's all underpinned by that i don't think it's an admission by that observation earlier that i have a an irrational regard for

the military for military veterans i think because of empathy actually because you can imagine yourself in certain situations and you think i hope i would do what is right but to sign up for it in the knowledge that this is who you are and what you want. It just always struck me growing up and as an adult, as admirable. But doesn't necessarily mean that we should welcome news that we are now so...

reduced and diluted militarily that we're going to have to take people up until the age of 65 in the event of us ever going to war again. Colin is in Belfast. Colin, what do you reckon? Hi, James. In answer to your question, your three questions, I think I would be likely to be called up to undertake jobs that would enable others who are full-time regular officers, soldiers.

to go and do other things closer to the front line. Are you saying this from a position of knowledge or are you speculating? Well, when I retired from the army, I retired as a battalion commander. And so I decided for a bunch of personal and professional reasons to move on. I'd sort of done my bit. served 28 years. So I suppose from a position of knowledge, although it never happened to me or to anyone that I was serving with, I think the point would be that...

You know, the world's a very dangerous place currently, James, and the next war won't be a war of choice. It's likely to be a war that may lead to, you know, requirement for people to do stuff for national survival. I'm going to go full nerd this hour, okay? Just to keep you and everybody else abreast of development. I'm going to go full nerd because I find it all fascinating and I accept that not everybody does, but...

What's the point of having a job like this if you can't indulge your inner nerd a few times a year? So you'd have had hundreds of people under you when you were a battalion commander. Yeah, about 600, I think. And probably a lieutenant colonel, were you? Yes, I was indeed, yeah. So, I mean... What sort of backroom job would you do? You seem to me to be supremely overqualified for doing anything other than being a battalion commander.

Well, of course, you build up knowledge and understanding and experience in military planning and things like that. So operations rooms tend to be populated by... in my day when I served in Iraq and so forth, and even in Afghanistan, people who were perhaps part-time officers, so through the reserves in those days, and then they could man operations rooms.

And I would be qualified to do that because I would understand the environment, so to speak. I suppose without a great deal of training, I'd be able to get up to speed in order to... man in operations room but not just that type of thing i think operational planning so planning logistics planning operational movements uh planning all sorts of things again people they experience it

myself and lots more like me had or have, would be able to undertake operational planning. Again, that would free up people who are currently... in the organisation to go further forward and to do that perhaps in a forward headquarters. You are... Such a wonderful guide to all of this. You're not only making sense of it, you're making it sound like quite a good idea. Oh, you haven't told me how old you are.

Oh, so I'm 58. I will be 59 in September. OK, so do you think this is a good idea? And should we be worried that it's needed? Interesting, because I was listening to the news there. I was thinking about that. I think, because I left for a whole host of reasons, like I say, that I won't bore you off. But I think, as I sit here today, it would make me go from feeling impotent to feeling important, if that makes sense.

So as I watch the world become an ever more dangerous place, which is heartbreaking, actually, you know, I feel a bit impotent because, you know, my day's gone. And I see that for various reasons that we're... We're all fully aware of that the military had been hollowed out and now those that are holding the ball, so to speak, have to do their best to get it up to speed, ready to...

to face these threats that might threaten our whole way of life in a way that hasn't happened for quite a while. And as I say, I never thought I would put a uniform in again, but... I get cross thinking about Mr. Putin and what he's doing and how he thinks he can treat the West. And that makes me feel quite important. And if I was able to do something... that was a help to the national effort.

then that would be a good thing, wouldn't it? Yes, it absolutely would. And I mean, what a clear-eyed analysis of the situation as well. The second bit of it, of whether it's a good idea, you've kind of answered, haven't you? Of course it would be a good idea to have people like you. doing things that perhaps freed up, forgive me, a younger man to do something more demanding of a younger body. That's it exactly. That is exactly. So you would...

You would top up from the rear, so to speak, which releases people to go further forward and to do things that would require somebody who's, as you say, a younger man, somebody who's... up to speed with the situation and planning and all that as it currently stands. I like this. Yes, I mean, the only other thing I'd ask is, or I'd remind actually people listening, probably not you, but the... While it's true that the...

capability has been severely reduced. And it is correct to use phrases like hollowed out. Most of this was built upon the false belief that we were safe forever rather than on anything more sort of nakedly political.

It was simply the idea that the Cold War was over, therefore we don't really need an army anymore on anything like the scale that we had before. Exactly, and that's sad. And so were I sitting here and were we engaging in... operations of choice rather than operations of national survival potentially I might have a very different view and my emotions might not be stirred so strongly and I might not want to

go forward, put myself forward and say, well, I'll step up and help out because if those operations of choice didn't chime with my sort of political outlook, etc., then I may say, not for me, thanks. But given that we are facing potentially threats that will lead to us having to, you know, for national survival reasons, do things that we might not have thought.

We'd need to have done since the end of the Second World War. Well, then that's a different situation. I mean, if there was any doubt in anybody's mind about why I reserve a particular level of respect and regard for... For military men and women, I think you will just have clarified that point quite perfectly with your contribution, Colin. Not only clear-eyed and brilliant, but properly patriotic at a time when...

That word and that concept is being horribly maligned and polluted by people, including people, of course, who make no secret of their admiration for Vladimir Putin. Colin reminding us all what patriotism is and the modesty with which it always walks hand in hand.

I was talking so casually about going to Afghanistan and Iraq with 600 men under his command. I mean, good God. I told you. I told you it brings something out in me that I don't really feel in any other context. But there it is. Thank you, seriously, for everything. 12 minutes after 12 is the time. The line from the commander standing joint.

command who is leading these efforts is pretty straightforward we must ensure our armed forces can draw on the numbers and skills required to meet it talking about the increasing threat of war I fully support these measures which will give us the widest possible pool of experienced personnel to call upon in times of crisis. Do you know, I almost in the last hour could have done it that way round.

How at a time of increasing threat of war are we, as a country, minded at the moment to back a man who has made no secret of his admiration for Vladimir Putin, who has had actual traitors in high positions in his party and who has done more to oppose European unity and the creation of a European army. than anybody else alive.

It's insane, right? I mean, I went bonkers enough explaining how insane everything was politically on the domestic front, but begin for a minute to think about the international front and the fact that Farage is currently having his 15 minutes and it may well be extended to it too. a lot more when the reality of war with the politician he admires most in the world is increasing at such a rate and to such an extent that the actual army now feels the need

to massively increase the pool of veterans that it can call upon. There's a phone in there that I can't quite find. Not the Farage bit. That's just a national tragedy that is still unfolding. But the bit about how... How keenly we feel what Lieutenant General Paul Griffiths describes as the increasing threat of war. Do you feel that? I mean, we talked a lot.

after the invasion of Ukraine about it. And it was people in Baltic states who were most concerned. Subsequently, when we talked about Greenland, it is, and Polish people feeling... that it could all happen again. I don't think British people have felt that. Possibly not since 1945, but certainly not since the 70s when I was born. We've never really felt that it could all happen again. War in Europe. European war.

Even when Putin went into Crimea, I don't think that there was any real jeopardy involved for the rest of Europe, outside of those countries. How smug does that sound, really? But now... Here, on this little island in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, the army feels the threat is real enough to tell 64-year-old men to stand by their muskets. How does that make you feel? And if you're one of them...

How does it make you react? It's coming up to quarter past twelve. A lot of love coming in for Colin, although I suspect, as you do, that he is the sort of man for whom that... sort of sentimental admiration would wash over him, more or less unnoticed, but I want you to know about it anyway. It is quarter past twelve.

60 minutes after 12 is the time. I just want to make sure Colin doesn't queer the pitch for us by being such a stand-up bloke. If you think this is a rubbish idea, please ring me and tell me. You know, if you greet the news that the army is going to put 55 to 65 year olds on standby to be called up in the event of a military.

necessity, then you need to tell me why you think it's an absolutely terrifying notion, possibly with reference to your own knees. 03456060973 is the number you need. So I'm just going to illustrate the... I don't know whether this is proof of why I would be rubbish, but I was just attempting to persuade Eleanor and Keith that I would actually be quite useful in the case of an international emergency. And obviously my patriotism is unquestioned.

I demonstrate it by wanting what's best for my country, as opposed to putting tatty flags on local lampposts. It's a weird little dichotomy, but I suppose if we're looking for cannon fodder. the latter category could be put at the front of the queue. So I was trying to explain to Eleanor and Keith why I am definitely somebody that the military should consider for a sort of intelligence role behind enemy lines.

And I reminded them of the time that I did the assault course at Sandhurst, the officer training school. Unfortunately, I described it as the obstacle course. So that might be proof that I am having a... yeah it'd be a bit like wearing a comedy outfit like on it's a knockout and running so i said i did the obstacle course at sandhurst as if that would persuade them and i did it successfully um

But no, probably calling it the obstacle course speaks to a certain lack of seriousness in my mind. I know what you're thinking now. You think, why on earth did you do the obstacle, the assault course? At Sandhurst, I didn't just do that. I spent a whole day on the recruitment program for officer applications, for becoming an officer.

No, it was here. I did it for LBC. We went down with the microphones. I wonder if it exists anywhere. I did, seriously. Why does nobody believe me? I did it as a sort of, I think it was an advertising type arrangement, whereas they were using the radio station to... try and enhance recruitment so we did some colourful editorialised work which involved me going to Sandhurst do you know what I was very good at?

i'm not boasting i just was this happily was in the days before tiktok because i think the sight of me falling flat on my backside having fallen off something on the assault definitely not obstacle course would have been irresistible for the social media department. But I was very good at the planning thing. So they give you a map.

with various things on it. And they say, you've got to get from here to here and contact this bloke and then get this to there. And there are enemies here, here, here and here. And I... I actually did put together an account of how you do that that was...

better than a lot of the people who were actually applying to join the army they told me afterwards my colleagues are looking at me with a level of skepticism that is unlike anything i've ever seen before so i think i need to clarify i got lost in this building on tuesday This is a building that I've worked in for over 20 years. I got actually, well, I didn't get lost. I knew where I was, but I had no idea how to get to where I needed to be.

But the reason for that was because they put in doors and walls where they didn't used to be. We're in the obstacles, if you like. We're in the middle of a lot of building work at Global Towers. So literally, I walked through a door when I came into work that I couldn't walk out of when it was time to do the radio show. They blocked it off. You remember when Eleanor's tofu got quarantined because the fridge there it was in got put behind.

a wall. So I don't think it's embarrassing that I got lost in this building on Tuesday. I think it's a bloody miracle I managed to find the studio at all. So, yes. I also... often leave the office and come back five minutes later because I've forgotten important things. So there are elements of the job that I don't think I'd be perfect for.

But in terms of doing what Colin described and sitting there, despite not having been a battalion commander with 600 troops under him, I would be quite good at a bit like problem solving. I wouldn't, would I? And I'd probably still call it an obstacle course. And Alyssa remembers not long ago, I dedicated a section of this programme to explaining why I would be such a good spy.

and somebody pointed out that I would boast about what a good spy that I was, and that would make me a rubbish spy. And I couldn't argue with that. I think post-therapy I've become a bit less boastful, so I might be able to modestly get on with it, but I'd have to tell you. Wouldn't I at some point? I'd be on it. It'd be a Friday. I'd be feeling a bit demob happy. I'd have that little...

That little sensation in my stomach where I think, oh, the rules don't apply to us. We're doing great. This is the show that breaks all the rules. Let me tell you about that time that the Foreign Office asked me to undertake quite an important mission when I was on holiday in Greece. and I'd tell you wouldn't I maybe I just did so I'd be a rubbish spy because I wouldn't be able to resist the urge not even boast I just would want you to know

There it is. Anyway, that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about proper people doing proper jobs in the proper military, not some... Wombat on the radio dreaming about what UC might be because he once did the obstacle course at Sandhurst. It's 22 minutes after 12. If you are in the military, I should have asked Colin this, is there a job I could do? Because I would. I'd be there. I'd sign up on day one.

If it was the Russians, but like Colin said, if it was a sort of political mission being undertaken by a politician who I didn't trust, I don't know that I would. You know me as well as anyone now, having listened to this programme for however long you've listened to it for. What job could I do? David is in Swindon. David, what made you pick up the phone? So, thanks, James. Firstly, there's absolutely a job for you.

Be kind. Be kind. Be kind, David. Absolutely. There's BSBS radio. There's a whole raft of things. No, someone with your experience, certainly media ops. albeit in the rear, would certainly be an absolute requirement in terms of how that's managed and how media ops is implemented forward in the front line within the communities.

wherever the base of operations is. So absolutely, there'd be a job with someone of your experience. Thank you very much. I feel better now. After 25 years, I'm now 50. I left the army three years ago. Right. Is this a good idea? It's absolutely workable. I think aspects of it, based on individuals, I think it could have credence. I think there's people there that could be put in jobs that matter, for sure. And as Colin said, and he articulated himself very well.

absolutely pushing from the rear so the qualified and trained personnel that are currently in the home base can push forward into the front line. That makes absolute sense. I suppose what really gets me is... Why, wonderful idea, and it's really turned heads, and it turns newspaper pages, but a better, a more professional approach from a political point of view would be, let's review the Strategic Defence Review.

Are we getting that right? What's our equipment look like? What is defence procurement actually doing? It's not either or, is it? I think they are doing that. No. Well, sure. But from my point of view, I look at that as a serving soldier and I think... Who the hell said that? What's a pointless... All they're trying to do is turn heads. Really, there's so much more bigger issues at stake here. And you can have this wonderful idea about sending 65-year-old people out.

you know, into potential combat. But actually, if we haven't got the equipment there available to actually deliver it, then...

We're always going to be on that back foot. This is absolutely brilliant. This is going to be one of my favourite calls of the week, and it's nearly over. So that's a much bigger compliment than it would be at 12.25 on a Monday. David, I hope you appreciate that. Because now that you've given me a little bit of a bounce in my studio step... by genuinely and persuasively arguing that there is a job I could do. How about try this? No, wait.

But what if this is the job I would do? What if this story, while everything you've just said about it is correct, is actually designed to sow in the minds of the public an increasing realization of the peril that we're facing? So we're having this conversation, albeit in ways that you professionally and understandably find irritating. But for the average Joe, there will be an awful lot of people listening to this going, crikey, really, things are getting that bad. The army is that worried.

about potential threats, about the increasing threat of war. And that, if I was in my office as the head of PSYOPs, the head of psychological manipulation, that is what this story is designed to do, David. Ha ha! Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's working. Because I'm more frightened than I was yesterday when I didn't know about this. It must be noted that war with some of the emerging...

threats now, which are on a much larger scale, far different from that which would have seen in Iraq and Afghanistan. So when you have, you need air supremacy, you need armour on the ground. OK, when both fighting forces have those capabilities, it's a very different space. And what concerns me is that this is a distraction. really. It's a throwaway comment, distraction, trying to come up with some pathetic political plan. I'm currently in...

No, but you're not listening to me. It can be all of those things, but it's making the public realise that the threat of war is increasing. And how else would you do that than by announcing something quite... all those things you just said about this story. It's a brilliant idea. It's a brilliant bit of comms because everybody listening is absorbing by osmosis.

the knowledge that the threat of war is increasing, while reacting either positively or negatively, in your case largely negatively, to the way that the story has been presented. It's not the headline that matters, it's the reason. It's not even the policy that matters, it's the reason for the policy.

that my colleagues in the communications department... Can I be in the secret communications department, please? My colleagues in the secret communications department have now fostered this among the public consciousness.

No, I agree. I understand what you're saying. You're absolutely right. That's why I've got this job, mate. That's why I've got this job and you just do the fighting. I just feel like the message was the wrong message. Maybe. Can you talk to me a bit about... being on on reserve being in the reserve forces about how fit for purpose that system currently is and how i mean are you in it do you do it no so tragically and this is this is another thing that worries me so there's been

There's been a lot of talk over the last five years about how difficult it's been to re-establish our reserve forces. And when we look at numbers across the armed forces, they take into account what they currently have in reserve. or you sign a contract at the end to say that you have to give over a number of years to be called up for whatever. Those, you know...

managing those individuals that disappear to all corners of the world or all corners of the UK, you know, is proving continuously difficult. You know, most people, like myself, take my pension at the end of it, and then I just want to disappear, you know. So...

I'm not convinced that they've got that right. They make this bold statement. I actually signed up for the reserves. I went onto the website and I applied to my local... my local careers office, albeit they weren't in the same trade or arm that I'd previously been in. I mean, me, after 25 years, I went from private soldier to captain, and they had no position for me. Oh, really? Really? Yes. Do you understand why? Well, because of my trade, I was in logistics.

Yes. You know, deployed numerous times, absolutely deployed with, ended my career on really amazing terms, a fantastic career. And it was because they were so... one sort of one directional oh this is the job we need and this is the person we need with these qualifications to fit into it yeah at this rank and i said that's crazy i've got 25 years of experience and i've deployed eight times to the desert and you don't want me

So I then moved away from it. I'm currently now in defence acquisition, in defence procurement, and I can see some of the difficulties that's being faced there by the fight that the front line are having with their equipment on a daily basis. And that fully explains why you're largely unimpressed by the nature of this announcement, albeit that my sincere defense of that against you is that two things can be true at the same time. Can I ask you a personal question?

Certainly. Were you hurt when the reservists told you they had no use for you? Yes, but it was one of many hurts, actually. I kind of desensitised from it. And the reason part of that is when those planes took off from the airport in Afghanistan, You mean when we were evacuating? Correct, yeah. And the manner with which that whole escapade took place over several...

I was close to eight months. I think it took end to end, didn't it? I sort of gave up on being too emotional about where some of the political decisions were being made and who was making them. Because I was starting to dwell on them, so I left them behind. And then I just turned the radio on and heard you today, and I thought, no, I've got to pull in. I'm glad you did. I'm desensitised by it now. And actually...

What does the future look like? I don't think there's any particular party at the moment that will make any different decisions. I suppose there's a part of me that what I seem to say, don't just say something like that, say something like this.

really look at the real issues that we've got. And don't get me wrong, numbers are a real issue. But there's a whole raft of equally... important stuff too you've covered so much territory some of it is is as you will know but some people listening may not endorsed by by um things that are already known 2024 just just two years ago the times reported that former soldiers

expected to fight in the event of war which as you've explained to us won't be every won't be all of them were missing because the army didn't have up-to-date records and speaking of what they could do differently in estonia every reservist and this is speaking to the fact that they had no use for you Every reservist has a predetermined wartime position and an obligation to update their contact information. Absolutely, yeah, and I do it religiously.

you know and yet but when i want to go into um the reserve services and potentially put uniform back on at a weekend and on training evenings during during the week whilst maintaining a job myself you know, their administration is not particularly well aligned. So if they can't get that right, how can they mobilise...

55 year olds. So it's all very well and good announcing this thing and it does, for good or for ill, in the nature of our... discourse and our media it gets attention but what really needs the attention and the attention um urgently given that the whole conversation is built upon the increasing threat of war is oddly enough given what david used to do did for 25 years in the army is the logistics is the

logistical side of things not the um it's not propaganda quite but it is it i mean propaganda can be a positive thing as well as a negative thing but but this is it's a nice story But it perhaps masks some rather nasty truths. And David has highlighted that quite perfectly. What a brilliant brace of callers we've had so far on a subject that...

wouldn't automatically have made you think that we were going to get them. Here's Amelia Cox with your headline. 12.36, you know, almost at the moment, there's a couple of minutes separating them. We heard in a news bulletin a reminder of something that the mayor of London said to me earlier today about people in the United States being fearful of a tap on the shoulder from the so-called immigration operatives.

Even as that was coming out of your radio and indeed my radio, I saw a message from a post from Simon Marks, who's too busy to join us today, on Blue Sky. about a New York Times report just from 11 minutes ago that the Trump administration has acknowledged. Listen to these words. It mistakenly deported a college student flying home to Honduras for Thanksgiving. And the government...

is yet to move to drop the case. They deported somebody by accident and are currently doing nothing to fix this, because why would they? So if you thought the mayor was in any way exaggerating... And that's not, by any stretch of the imagination, the worst story that's unfolding. But, you know, at least he made the trains run on time.

or something. 12.37 is the time. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC, where we're having a surprisingly nuanced conversation, a very gratifyingly nuanced conversation about the Ministry of Defence announcing... that it is increasing the catchment area. of retired personnel who could be called up in the event of war, including, or at least they refused to rule out, frontline roles, although the majority would be non-combat specialists, cybersecurity perhaps.

would be an example. And I'm just wondering what we should take from this, either on a personal level, if you are ex-military, or on a public level, if you are not, or indeed if you are. What does it mean? And how... Do you greet this move? 12.38 is the time. David is in Norwich. David, what would you like to say? Good afternoon, James. Thank you very much. My first time caller and a big fan. You're very welcome.

voice my opinion. Thank you. So 33 years in the RAF, left a year ago, and I think my opinion would be slightly frustrated with the change of tack in terms of reserve commitment. I was... I'm 54 this year, so that would give me a year's worth up to age 55. But now they're going to potentially move the goalposts for us, which in answer to the question is a bit of frustration. I think, and I probably should have clarified this sooner, I think you're okay. I think this would apply only to...

Those who have already left the service and are in the strategic reserve will not be affected by the changes unless they opt in. So it's only for people who leave subsequently that this would apply. As far as I can. Does that make sense to you? Yeah, it does make perfect sense. And I think it's a sound indictment of where the military recruitment retention process is. I know they've tried to make a lot of headway recently over the last decade to improve that.

But you talked about the messaging that it gives to the public in terms of the possibility of war. But also, it's a good messaging point for the public about the state of the armed forces in terms of the numbers and the capabilities that we have left. And I wonder whether they should be taking their focus and looking elsewhere for a recruitment pool in the case of war. Perhaps the younger generation, more incentives to join. Perhaps even national service.

they've talked a little bit about that haven't they almost as a sort of tourist type national service where people will get a flavour of what it was like what's the um it's interesting when you stepped down when you retired just just just last year what is the What difference do you think, and you may not either want or be able to answer this question, but that phrase there that is used as the rationale for what has been announced, the increasing threat of war.

So the announcement is made and we have someone leading the efforts to ensure that Britain is ready to face the increasing threat of war. What do you think the difference is in the perception of that threat? among people in uniform, which you were a year ago, compared to people not in uniform, which you are now. So if you're in service, I'm going to say that you're... understanding of the threat of war is probably clearer and much bigger than the rest of us. Or not? Yeah, it is.

Absolutely. I mean, I was trucking Russian submarines back in the 1980s and we seem to be doing a similar sort of thing now. As you do. And it goes in fits and starts and cycles and we bounce from one thing to the next. And I think the public perception is... is perhaps watered down. And from a military person's perspective, our focus is far greater for obvious reasons. But I think your gentleman, your caller earlier, mentioned about the Strategic Defence Review.

cycles of that i think they're too short term they look at a five-year cycle i think um and and it's almost a reactive process and it takes so long to get people trained and through systems to answer that calling. I wonder whether the process could be longer term. That's partly a problem with our political cycle, actually. If one parliament voted to make it longer term, the next one could come in and...

And undo it. But it does seem odd, doesn't it, that something so intrinsic to national security is so cyclical, the cycles are so short. Yeah, absolutely. It's reactive rather than sort of proactive and that's a shame. I don't know what the answer is. I don't think the 55 to 65 is the answer.

I absolutely agree they can fulfil some roles. And I think a lot of the reservists or retirees would be more than happy, myself included, in the event of war to be called up in support. But I don't think it's a longer term solution. And I think we need to look further and...

and wider in terms of that recruitment pool and ask ourselves a big fundamental question is why can't we keep people in the military and why can't we recruit from a younger generation as quickly as we want to if you were 21 now would you join

No, absolutely not. Why not? I mean, I reiterate the point, I've had a fantastic career and it was a game changer for me. But would I join again? No. Would I tell my two boys to join now? Perhaps not. Why not? You don't have to tell me. I'm just curious. You know me. I'm very nosy. It goes with the territory. That's a good question. I could do interrogations, David. There you go.

That was too much of a close question, though. I think after so many years, your opinion of the military changes. The patriotism is still there, but you get to a point where you think... and you can't change as much as you want to change over that time you can't have so much of an influence and it becomes almost a little bit of a frustration yeah of course and you don't want to impart that frustration or see your your children or other people go through that so um

That sounds really bitter. No, it doesn't. It doesn't. I promise you it doesn't. And I mean, if I were being pushing back at all or being combative, I'd say, actually, you probably would still join if you were 21, because you'd be 21. You wouldn't be a 21-year-old with 33 years of experience. So I don't know. But it's fascinating stuff. And again, thank you. I make no apology for saying thank you to people who've served.

in the armed forces in ways that I don't say thank you to other callers or not to all other callers there are other jobs which are immensely valuable but that concept of patriotism has been so hideously polluted lately and continues to be that just to hear calm committed human beings who knew that they were, potentially, could be at any moment.

called upon to endanger themselves in the most extraordinary ways on everybody else's behalf. That's why it doesn't actually change my view when you remind me of all the things the British Army has done that the British Army probably shouldn't have done or definitely shouldn't have done. I say that as someone whose Irish heritage is incredibly precious to him. It's that knowledge that you're doing it, for good or for ill, the troop, the soldier.

The lion led by donkeys is doing it out of, on some level, some sense of the most ultimate, either patriotic or human spirit. It's 1245. It is 12.48. I was pontificating yesterday. I know what you think. I never pontificate. I merely provide careful and measured contributions to disco. No, I was pontificating yesterday about that.

What was it? The boycott of the BBC that Farage said he was going to undertake on December the 4th, 2025. I thought I might have imagined it because unless I'm... hallucinating he's never off the flipping place but i double checked he categorically did well he did this i'm sick to death of the double standards and hypocrisy above all of your organization and what happened

On was a day programme this morning was a complete bloody disgrace. Next, Sam Coates from Sky News. No, I'm done with you. Thank you. My question was, he said they were lying. Sam Coates from Sky News. I really, until you apologise for all of your output. You're an appalling output at the same time that I'm accused of saying these things which I deny. I'm not speaking to you.

I think it's 35 people now accusing him of various things, including suggesting that Hitler was right or making jokes to Jewish pupils about... gas chambers and sundry other hideous bigotries and racism so i just wanted to double check that he was still boycotting the bbc when he turned up for that press conference with um honest bob jenner yesterday and there was a wonderful pause in it i don't know if you saw it i didn't i was watching the snooker

But about two minutes when Generic was expected to walk onto the stage, but didn't. Two minutes. I mean, if I played that out on the radio now, either the emergency tape would kick in or you'd turn over and start listening to Classic FM.

Even I struggle. Well, I wouldn't struggle to fill two minutes. Who am I kidding? But other people might. And I double checked because he's still boycotting the BBC. I've checked with the BBC. They definitely haven't apologised for anything. And yet at the very beginning of...

proceedings yesterday, this happened. We have a list of questions. We're going to begin with Chris Mason, BBC News. Well, either very forgetful or a massive liar. I don't know which it would be. I'll let you decide. Back to matters military. Barry is in Newton-le-Willows. Barry, what made you pick up the phone?

Jeepers, James. You don't have waffle on. Anyway, all he needs now is to say fake news, isn't it? Next! You've got plenty of time. Go on. What did you want to say? All he needs to say next, that Farage fellow is fake news, isn't it? And then he'll be online with his mate over the pond. But basically, I understand. time what David said earlier on, saying it's a ridiculous message, but basically what they're doing is they're making it, they're normalising it. You know, like...

You know, like that idiot over there keeps saying, like, we're going to take over Gaza, so we normalise it. We're taking over Greenland, so people start talking about normalising it. So they're just normalising it to get the people's heads, as you said, you know, we're closer to water, whatever. But in a positive way, as in this is true, whereas the same tactics are used to do bad things, but this is being used to do a good thing.

So it's put in people's minds. And then like Eleanor said before about, I don't think all the young people are not going to turn up. Do you know what I mean? They'll go. If they see the situation so dire, they'll say, yeah, I'm in there. And like also she said about.

all the people going into film roles. We have a reunion every couple of years, so me and the lads have joined up together, and we talk about the youngsters in the jobs that we're doing now, and say, oh, they're this, they're that, they're doing professional jobs, you know what I mean? And we could go in and do the backroom stuff like your colonel said before, you know what I mean? And release the guys. Like I was in comms, so I go in a comm centre in England.

They go on and come down on a ship, you know what I mean, or close it to wherever. That's what we do. And we do it as a drop of a hat, you know what I mean? Yes, exactly. And most people, and I don't know whether I'm speaking broadly here, but I think I am. Most of us have this... Huge misconception.

that everybody in the armed forces is on battle stations, you know, is primed and ready to go. There's billions of jobs that need to be done, and they're absolutely just as crucial to the effort that have nothing to do with, you know, the actual moments of engagement. Yeah, yeah, true. So are we talking just the army or are we talking the senior service as well? I'm just a bit confused. Well, there's a lot of confusion around. You'll be all right. How old are you now?

Well, the senior service is the Royal Navy, obviously, so I'm 63. And like I said before, there's a few of us, we have a reunion every couple of years. And out of the 10 or so, I think about... five or six of medically don't have medical any medical issues i mean and we'd go yeah but you can always opt into this scheme but as as the changes that are underway would not affect you because no no no you wouldn't be you wouldn't be you wouldn't have been caught under them first so

It's anybody moving forward, and then it's the increase from 55 to 65. So David in Norwich, actually, 54, waiting to hit 55, I think probably will be. in danger of being caught up in this but the massive majority of people who might from the headlines and some of the coverage think that they're going to be usually coverage that involves playing the dad's army theme tune the detail is a little considerably different from what they're

headlines initially attest. I'll tell you what I'm worried about, though, is that line. And I don't think I'm the only one who's worried about it. The line about this being part of the efforts to ensure Britain is ready to face the increasing threat of war. And then you have a reminder that in Estonia, every reservist, so that will be both retired and only ever.

reservists, have predetermined wartime positions and an obligation to update their contact information. We always mention Estonia when we want a pole star. if you like, of what living under the threat of a resurgent Russia feels like. You know, the post-Soviet threat abated and then with Putin it's come back again. The Cold War has been reinvigorated.

And the Baltic states know what that looks like. They know what that means. They know what that feels like. So Estonia is the canary, if you like, down this particular coal mine. And yet the UK... is keen to ensure. that the country is ready to face the, quote, increasing threat of war. And I don't know that the public is yet picking up on that. If it did, if the country really was aware of how concerned the people that know...

such things are about the possibility of more Russian aggression, then our opinion polls would probably look a little bit different politically at the moment. I mean, they'd have to, wouldn't they? Unless everybody else shares Nigel Farage's very warm view.

of Vladimir Putin and the Kremlin. Neil is in Chalk Farm with what might be the last word on this. Neil, what's it going to be? Yeah, hello, James. Yeah, I'm coming from a different angle. I'd better give you my quick why I'm entitled to talk about this. So I left school at 14, joined a power shoot regiment in 17, came out in my 20s with a combat injury. Wow. But since then, I've been an elected governor for the NHS Trust for North London, and I run a weekly drop-in for veterans. Okay.

And because I went through the same thing, I went through the whole PTSD therapy at St Pancras Hospital about 15 years ago. And then I thought, I've got to help these other veterans because they are lost. They don't know where to turn to. They're self-addicting. They're self-medicating themselves. They're homeless. They're angry. They're leaning towards very right-wing views, some of them, because of their anger. And so I now run a weekly drop-in.

where we involve people from the arts to teach them writing, poetry, stand-up comedy, whatever it is, music and the rest of it. And I find the veterans want that community back. Yes. Which obviously I did. I stopped going to reunions because I was hearing about alcoholics, addictions and suicides. And it was too sad for me to go there anymore. I understand that.

But in our drop-in, we now have people who are homeless, who have tried suicide, who have been addicted, and they like that form of community which they can attach themselves to again, have the kind of sense of humor. And this is men and women from the Commonwealth and from Britain who come regularly every week. And without that... connection they say they would be lost again and purpose because you go from and i don't want to put words into anyone's mouth but from the outside you go from i mean

having the most obvious and unquestioning purpose in life to having none. Yeah, absolutely. And you'd be amazed at how many people in my platoon are dyslexia like me. Really? Yeah, absolutely. Why do you think that is? They'd all done really badly at school. They'd all come out very early for being disruptive because they're dyslexic or the ADH. And so they joined the army to prove themselves that they weren't worthless, useless beings. They weren't idiots.

And in the army, the army has a really good way of training you, which is voice and command, voice and command. So you don't have to do any writing exams, especially in the infantry. And then suddenly you get pride and you go back in your uniform and your village says... Oh, we thought you were an idiot. Now you're wearing a uniform.

Oh, you're breaking my heart, but it's happy. You've answered my last question, actually, which is going to be, did it work? Did it actually take away some of the stigma of your childhood when people were labelling you as stupid because you had dyslexia? It did work, but then when I left the army with a combat injury, I very quickly spiralled down to homelessness because I couldn't hold the job down because of the injury. Living in a car, got very angry.

started addicting and I remember I was in a crack house looking at people and thinking this is not me I've got to get out of here and I've got to sort my life out and then I really actually got my life together and was quite successful and became a governor of the NHS. And I wrote a book about coming out of the army. What happens to you? I was about to tell you that you should. I have written it. I'll send it to you. You'd love it. You're telling me. That's extraordinary. And I think...

Perhaps because of your struggles, you came, and not everybody would, but you came back with a desire to help others. Well, by helping others, I'm helping myself. Every time I see we have a success... We had a lady who joined from Trinidad who had an injury and was living in a carnage, London. We made sure she got the help. She got the MP. She got the doctor. She didn't know anything about this. You're still fighting the good fight, aren't you? That's wonderful, Neil. Thank you so much.

kind of was wondering how I was going to introduce this last bit of the program, but I know now, because that's what selflessness sounds like. That's what patriotism sounds like. Integrity, honesty, genuine struggle, overcoming problems, redemption, reality. This is what the opposite. Sounds like. Nigel Farage can't even run a Fiverr side team, so he's not going to be able to run a country.

They're not a serious party. We may have sympathy with some of the things that they say. We may understand why millions of our fellow countrymen and women have gone to reform, but they are not the answer. Robert Jenrick there in a little bit of footage unearthed by the Daily Telegraph displaying what I suppose we'll know.

become known if he sticks around for long enough, become known to future generations as blatant barefaced genericism. That's it from me for today. You can listen back on our free global player app or indeed the LBC app where you can also stay up to date.

on the top stories and opinions. Put your news categories in the order you want. Pause, rewind live radio, and even listen to a range of podcasts, including James O'Brien Daily. And full disclosure, which is back next week, actually. I've already got some corkers in the pipeline. for you download the official LBC app for free from your app store now coming up at four on LBC it's Tom Swarbrick but now it's time for Sheila Fogarty