Has Keir Starmer made a mistake with Andy Burnham?

It is three minutes after ten. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC, where all being well, we will be returning to the domestic political landscape today. Be careful what you wish for. is uh is are wise words of caution, aren't they? Because um it ain't pretty. The situation in America, in the United States of America, continues to shock um I I some

W warmth perhaps to be garnered from the scale of the um opposition, the scale of the protests to the cold blooded murder of the ICU nurse Alex Pretti, but three thousand officers and agents deployed. It looks like this Bombino A character may carry half a can for it, but remember Trump doesn't do anything.

out of principle or conscience. He does everything out of self interest. So if his calculus, if his personal political calculus at the moment is that they need to dial down the fascism, he'll dial it down, but briefly. and it will soon be dug straight back up again. Um don't I think waste any time now wondering whether those words are accurate or or or these uh um descriptions are sound. You you've had it proved too many times to quibble.

Now here's part of the problem that Labour has. Um At the moment. That that was a really good story in the news there. I don't even know if you noticed it, about leasehold. Uh a a ban on new leaseholds, a change to legislation. England and Wales are pretty much the only countries in the world where you can somehow own and not own your property. But I don't know whether or not it is going to

I I mean is it going to excite anybody? Is anybody going to this morning be galvanised by news regarding leasehold contracts? And that i i if you were to be If you were to commit yourself briefly to assembling a warm analysis of where the current government is, and and I hope you won't

think less of me for suggesting that that's quite a difficult thing to do at the moment. Not impossible, but quite a difficult thing to do at the moment. You would you would find yourself pointing to relatively dry detail. Don't feel hefty. So you heard the Home Secretary earlier today unveiling policing reforms. Um that sounds very big, but the more you dig into the detail, the harder it is to stay

to to keep grasp of what is actually destined to happen. The that the a lot of what they're doing almost goes in the opposite direction. It's actually in the detail that you find the benefits, that you find the goods and the positives, but they don't lend themselves to massive headlines. They don't lend themselves to big tent announcements. We're tackling the problems with leaseholds.

is something that no-one has ever marched to war under, a banner that nobody has ever marched to war under. And that, it seems to me, is part of the problem. Uh uh th th the stuff that they do well doesn't really resonate, whether because of media uh problems or something that runs a little bit deeper or communications problems coming out of Downing Street, and the stuff that they do badly just happens again and again and again.

And that brings us back to the story of the week, which is uh Keir Starmer's decision to block Andy Burnham from returning to Westminster. Here is the rationale, the reason why they have done it. They expect to lose. the by election that will be um called as a consequence of Andrew Wynne stepping down. They expect to lose it even if Andy Bat Burnham runs. And they would rather lose the other.

a by election than lose the mayoralty. So if Andy Burnham pulls out of the mayoralty, resigns from that job two years after accepting it, runs for parliament and loses because the threat posed by the Greens and by reform is um i is high, very high, very real possibility that

Labour could be pushed into third place in Gorton and um I I I don't know how much magic Andy Burnham brings to a by election. I really don't, actually. Uh and we may need calls from Manchester on that to um uh fillers in on whether or not he carries a cachet akin to the one that Boris Johnson carried in London for many years and that Sadiq Khan

carries today. Traditional Labour territory though, both cities. So um perhaps uh Johnson being more of an anomaly than Sadiq Khan. You've got around fifty Labour MPs signing a letter objecting to the decision. But

I want to know what you think. I in a way I want to know whether you would sign it. The mood among the party grassroots has been described as febrile in the wake of the decision, which means that our job is to look at why it was done. And and I I I don't know whether this is me being a little bit um

glass half full, or or whether it is as in looking for positives in in obvious negatives, or whether it is actually the grown up and important thing to do, which much of the media won't do because it doesn't lend itself to this addiction that we have to drama. We are all addicted to drama. Well we have been since twenty sixteen probably. The political diet prior to twenty sixteen, even with austerity, was much um

than the political I quite like beige food. Um but I I'm British after all. But it was a much more beige polit we didn't know it was, but you think of the big flare ups and the gaps between them, you know, I mean in international foreign wars, obviously, but also Yeah, things like the poll tax, the the moment or or the toppling of Margaret Thatcher, two events that were actually linked.

Um or or Michael Heseltine's resignation from the cabinet. You th these moments of high drama merit several chapters. in politics textbooks. The textbooks covering the last ten years th th these sort of dramas are barely gonna merit a page'cause another one will be along tomorrow. And it is that addiction to drama that I think explains some of the coverage of moments like this. One Labour MP said of the block on Andy Burnham

Um I suspect most of the parliamentary party will back the decision. The problem will come when we lose the by election. The MP predicted that Labour would finish third at best with the Greens and Reform UK fighting it out. to win. Um if they lose that I would suggest that Starmer is in all sorts of trouble.

So what I want to examine today is the simple question of what you think about what the Prime Minister did. There's no point arguing that it wasn't his individual decision. The NEC has moved with Keir Starmer, albeit that his deputy offered up the single and solitary vote in favour of letting Andy Burnham stand. The rationale is that Losing a by election is better than losing the mayoral. So

The calculation is if we have an election for mayor of Greater Manchester, we will lose it. And that is a much bigger surrender of power for the Labour Party than losing a by election in a constituency that will barely make well it won't make a dent in the size of our majority. So think about all the moving parts here. That's moving part number one is losing the mayoral. And that being a much bigger deal. It's a much bigger job than being an MP. That's why Andy Burnham does it.

So that is the risk. That that is the the belief that we will lose the mayoralty and we don't want to run that risk, so we will run the risk of losing a by election. That's the second moving part because

the odds are at the moment that they will lose that by election. I think we learnt Plied Cymru down in um uh Cafilly that you can never say never uh in by elections, but I don't know that you've got, with the possible exception of the Greens, I don't know that you've got the kind of wild card of a resurgent Plied Cymru.

So the second moving part is the by election, which they also at the moment think they're probably going to lose. So they're choosing between a rock and a harder place. They're concluding that losing at the mayoralty is a harder place than the rock. So they they've gone for that. But if they then lose that by election, which they think they're going to do, Keir Starmer's position becomes well, fragile.

And the calculation to risk losing the mayoralty will pale into the background even if the calculation was correct. Y y you know, the risk of losing the mayoralty of Manchester is now off the table. So nobody is going to respond to a loss in the by election by saying

Oh well, at least we didn't lose the mayoralty'cause that hasn't been crystallised. It hasn't become a real enough prospect for people to actually put it on the scales when assessing whether or not running the risk of and then losing a by election was the correct thing to do. Um and then you've got the backbench rebellion, which is as with all backbench rebellions close to immeasurable. You can count the fifty signatures on the um

uh uh uh uh uh letters. You can count the fifty signatures on the letter objecting. Two the decision to block him from standing. But y I mean, some people might have signed that after lunch, some people might have signed it in a fit of pique, some people might have signed it in blood, so passionate are their feelings, some people might have signed it with a little bit of a meh, or they sign everything that causes trouble for the current leadership. So

This is compared to the conversations that we've had in the last week, this is quite dry territory and I'm not going to lie to you. I'm glad. I I think there is only so much. chronicling of the decline of Western civilization that you can do.

um as a human being. There are days when you don't look away, you certainly don't close your eyes, you don't start ignoring what is going on, but you remember that even as America falls, the rest of the world continues to turn and the United Kingdom remains, for now at least. RELATIVELY INSULATED FROM THE FORCES OF FASISM THAT ARE ON THE MARCH IN MINNEAPOLIS AND ELSEWHER. BETER TO LOSE

Gorton than to lose the Mayoralty, but as David has already suggested, better to lose the Mayoralty than to lose number ten. And that's your third or fourth moving part. So What do you think? I I mean are you in the mood for how much trouble is Keir Starmer in? Because I think I think the writing's on the wall now for him. I d I don't see how

people can be expected to march into battle behind him any time soon in a in a general election. I I I could be wrong, but I just find myself quite sadly, to be honest with you, because as I say, about beige food and dullness, of the last fourteen years, um, should be set in relief to to but the problem was you wanted calm competence, didn't you? And you don't feel that you're getting it. You might be getting calmness, but you don't feel that you're getting competence. So

Has Keirstama done the least bad thing in the circumstances? This was the phone in that we were going to have at twelve o'clock yesterday until um uh someone moved from the right to the far right. I I forget their name. More on that later in the programme. And and that is the conversation that I want to have with you because I don't know. I I mean I I don't know.

you see this. I know how I see it, a and I genuinely see it as he's probably done the right thing, but it's still awful. And those are the moments where you feel support for any politician. neu'n ffodol managheru, sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n.

government currently faces are self inflicted, most obviously in the context of policy reversals. One or two makes them look good and look like they're listening. Eight or nine makes them look a little bit dark. And increasingly ridiculous. The reason why he can't be a mayor and an MP, as Boris Johnson was for a while, is because he's also the PCC. The Mayor of London is currently not the police and crime commissioner.

Um, but the mayor of Manchester is, so he can't hold both jobs. Do you know I asked Jim Waterson that yesterday from London Centric when he was in to talk to us about that amazing story involving TikTok. 'cause I knew he'd know, he's that kind of character. I didn't know. But now you do. And it means that the that the the notion of there being a a good option was removed.

There is no win here. Every single thing that Starmer could do from the moment that Andy Burnham announced that he wanted to run for parliament again, every single thing that he could do was a bad option. Is there a word for that? Is it Hobson's choice? I y you know, there are three or four paths he can go down, and every single one of them takes him to a place that is worse than the place he started out from.

yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n. He looks vulnerable if he lets Burnham stand. But he runs the risk of Burnham not winning the by election, which is the worst of all possible worlds. This is the one line of defence I'd offer up for him. Although I am, as you can probably tell, getting edging ever, ever closer to deciding that it's time for for Starmer to be replaced.

The one thing I would say is a fairly big obstacle to going for him on this occasion is that he's probably done the thing that a utilitarian would advise. Do I need to explain what utilitarianism is? To myself, not to you, I know you know. Just remind myself what utilitarianism is. It's it's almost as if you turn everything into a calculation. And you leave emotional.

at the door. And what you do is is essentially it's where that phrase for the greater good comes from. Most nineteenth century philosophy was dedicated or at least continental philosophy was dedicated to trying to replace religion, to find a moral code that could replace

a kind of slavish devotion to ancient texts and religion. So, you know, you've got Kant's golden rule, which kind of boils down to do unto others as you would have done unto yourself. But utilitarianism, as Jeremy Bentham and um John Stuart Mill finest was the idea that you just calculate you almost have units called utile.

And you you add up how many pluses would be created by doing something and how many negatives and then you remove the negatives from the pluses and what you're left with however negative is the best available option. And that's why I think that blocking Andy Burnham for a utilitarian was the right thing to do.

But of course that's only one school of philosophy. It might be for the greater good, but um A you might not see it that way or feel it that way, and B um that might be true today. Will it be true by the end of February when they've lost a a by election in traditional Labour heartlands. So there it is O three four five six oh six zero nine seven three.

Keir Starmer has blocked Andy Burnham. I don't want to have a phone in about whether Andy Burnham would be a better leader than Keir Starmer. We may have to have that phone in at some point, but it's off the table now, which is another moving part.

That particular threat to his leadership has been removed. Of course, if you want threats to his leadership, you're not gonna see that as a positive, which is where the problems with utilitarianism come in. But if you're Keir Starmer calculating Keir Starmer's

utility, then this was probably the right thing to do. Until you um drive a coach and horses through my carefully constructed and uh surprisingly philosophical analysis. That's what I meant by being a little bit relieved that we're not talking about um nurses being murdered on the streets of our cities. uh by law enforcement officers uh in cold blood.

I sometimes you've got to remember how lucky you are. O three four five six oh six O nine seven three is the number you need to talk to me about British politics and whether or not Keir Starmer has done the right thing in blocking Andy Burnham. and what the the ripple effect or the ramifications of this decision um will be in your view. It's ten nineteen.

It is uh twenty-two minutes after ten and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC, where we turn our attention with a with a with a surprising sense of relief to ymwneud â phobl, ac ymwneud â phobl, ac ymwneud â phobl, ac ymwneud â phobl. um uh to block Andy Burnham from standing for Parliament in a in a by election set to unfold next month. Um let's dive straight into the call, shall we? Martin is in Newark. Martin, what would you like to say?

Um, I'd like to say that I think Keir Starmer did the right thing. Um, pretty plainly. I think one of the weird things that people aren't talking about right now is one of the great Labour MPs of our time that didn't get elected at the last election Is Jonathan Ashworth? Yeah. He's from great a Manchester

If you could get Jonathan Ashworth campaigning with Andy Burnham for this season Has anyone spoken to him? Have you has uh has he broken cover at all? No, he hasn't spoken yet at all. And I imagine that's part of the point is they need to get Andy Burnham to be quiet. Yes. And Andy Burnham, with all due respect Not a great minister when you were in government. I lost it with the first call yesterday. I said I don't want to phone in.

about whether Andy Burnham should replace Keir Starmer. I want to phone in about the thing. Yes. You go back to the last time he was in Parliament and he had Three briefs in about three years. He didn't stick to a job. And although he likes to complain and is a critic

He can do that as mayor. That's perfectly fine. Sadiq Khan is a brilliant critic. He is actually Kirstarma. The the point of having these mayors is so that they have more autonomy to make arguments, a bit like the devolution argument was in the first place. to have people throwing good ideas at the government. And what happened last year, around the time of the La Labour Party conference, Andy Burnham made a series of moves that got costed out. and people concluded they were done.

Uh y I th there's a funny thing. I I was looking at a graph this morning about the relationship between voting patterns and education in the United States and I got a little bit excited about it and then Um, the brilliant uh Professor Jonathan Portes at King's College responded to my post pointing out that it was probably not quite as sweeping as I thought. But I I I've got that in the back of my mind when I when I almost make it sound like a criticism.

when I say to you that you're very informed. Uh does that translate on the ground? I I I mean the the the the feelings probably are going to be more important than the utilitarian calculations. People I mean Kirstama is at the bottom of a very deep hole.

And some days it looks like he's still digging. Andy Burnham, if not a clean skin, is uh close to being a clean skin, which is what Boris Johnson discovered a a runner's mare can do. You can wash off a lot of a lot of history and of course a lot of association with previous leaderships and previous party administrations and people who just want a change will think that not letting Andy Burnham at least potentially pose one

is a big mistake and quite and quite weak. Well I I would say in response to that, Keir Starmer, when he ran for the general election with the Labour Party, um, did so hoping for a ten year plan of national renewal. That was what he kept on saying. And people elected the Labour government on those terms. Now he's had not quite two years of a five year parliament.

And one of the big points that the whole cabinet was saying, as they were the shadow cabinet, is people need to see politicians delivering on promises. Now, we are an impatient culture at the moment. The internet has made us crazy.

But if by the time of the next election Keir Starmer has managed to deliver on his key manifesto pledges and can say, Look, we made some mistakes along the way, but we did what we promised we would do And and then start this list of things which I realised after reaching for the for the new legislation on leaseholds, I kind of talk about every day without realising it, in that that a lot of the Labour wins Uh good stories but not topics.

So it's all very well me moaning about everybody being addicted to drama and this one doesn't have headline written all over it. But actually, how many times do I say to you, That's a really important story, but it's not a phone in topic or at least I haven't got the skills to turn it into a phoning topic. And the and the news regarding leaseholds um I think fits very much into that category. If that list becomes longer, it becomes a headline. And in fact to tally with what Martin has said,

Um a couple of messages uh uh speaking to this theme. I actually am, writes Beatrice, starting to think that Starmer is getting on top of the job of Prime Minister and now is not the time to get rid of him. I think he's doing a really good job of steering the UK through international choppy waters. And is doing it so well with Jonathan Powell that we don't recognise how stormy it is and how good a skipper Starmer is being internationally. Another message which I've managed to lose

Suggested that he may have been distracted by the illness and loss of his brother in the first year of his premiership. I'm always a little bit wary of digging too deep. on the um uh on on the on the sort of psychological analysis, but the sense that the scale of the mess, this is the thing about the reform defections. Has ever a word missed a vowel as desperately as the word defection misses a vowel in the context of reform?

people joining reform. But this is where they are so baffling, or at least so dispiriting, in the the policies, the politics and the people responsible. For the mess. that Keir Starmer found when he arrived in Downing Street are are all now setting themselves up as having had nothing to do with creating the mess that they created and somehow being the people that should be trusted to fix it. I mean it is truly breathtaking.

But um that is where we are and that is one of the things that Beatrice suggests I think that we should be taking into account when

Critiquing Keir Starmer. Alan is in Wandsworth, no ordinary Allen, a former Labour campaigns director. What's going on here? And is it the right course, albeit No one's gonna claim that it's a good course to be on. Good morning, James. Yes, he took the right decision. Um it's the only decision he could have taken and it was the correct one in the circumstances. Why? There's no there's no guarantee that Andy Vernon would have won the by election.

That would have led to the to the mayoral election. There's no guarantee Labour would have won that election. But even more important than that is taking the voters for granted. These voters elected Andy Burnham for a for a term of office that runs out in twenty twenty eight. It's also rumoured that were Andy to become the mayor or candidate and f create a voc vacancy in Manchester, one of the MPs in the area

would become the candidate in Manchester, thus creating another parliamentary by election. And so it goes on. And these are politicians that are using voters as pawns. They're taking them for granted in their own personal You're talking about Andy Burnham now. Well, yes, he hasn't thought this through properly. He's thinking about his own ambition, he's not thinking about the voters. And all too often politicians do forget the voters.

when it comes to their own ambitions. I kinda get it because it's a big old greasy poll and they come into politics with an ambition and think they can do well and they have egos and I get it. But the bottom line is it's the voters We put them there. Um but but the Tories did it time after time. Yeah, I think it's a good thing.

Is the Mancunian voters being told, Yeah, all right, you might have voted for him to be your mayor two years ago, but you know, little pat on the head. Um th the the grown ups are in the room now and we're we're we're changing that into that's that's quite contemptuous.

Yes, I I think it is. I think it I think it's using them as pawns. It's it's forgetting the power of the voters and the voters will voters are clever things, you know. They're clever beings. They will they will work it out and they will decide what they want to do. And they will have their get their own back if they ever want to. And then a quick word a quick word if you would, An Al Alan, on the on the relatively wet ammunition, and and and by that I sort of I just mean sort of damp.

Burnham Rebellion growing. Um that that is something that Snarmer and his team factor in as a as an affordable cost. Yes, they have to. Um I I I I I th I wish that that those that uh in the Labour Party um who th want to get rid of Sarma listen to your introduction today and take the utilitarian approach to it'cause now isn't the time.

to get rid of Starmer. If they do wanna do it, if they're gonna be clever, they do it six, eight, ten, twelve months ahead of a general election'cause that will give Labour the best chance of then going to the people and asking the people to endorse what the politicians have done behind the scenes. A fresh offer. Thank you for that, Alan. It is ten thirty one. You're listening to James O'Brien on L B.

see. Um I I I I don't know. I'm they're getting a problem of observing these things partly through the lens of lobby correspondents who mostly work for newspapers and that are d d desperately and eternally dedicated to opposing anything that's not Tory or even further right than Tory. But fifty people signing a letter complaining about it

Is fifty people signing a letter complaining about it. It's it's not like nineteen twenty two committee letters of dissatisfaction. It's not up there with a sort of constant aura of threat that hung around Boris Johnson's final months or or Liz Truss's entire premiership. So I I again I it's my job, isn't it, to cut through that and try and provide you with clearer analysis. But I I can't. Um I can't without you. Uh all I can tell you is that they they seem quite desperate to get rid of Starmer.

And if you think back to his predecessor, I I never met a Tory. I never met a Tory who wanted Jeremy Corbyn to re be replaced as leader of the Labour Party, even after he did much better than was expected in that um election call by Theresa May. because Labour somehow, despite being led by a lever, became the the last repository for hopes that Brexit might be reversed. I never met a Tory that wanted Jeremy Corbyn to be replaced.

Um so the fact that the Tories really want Starmer to be replaced, the Tory press really want him to be replaced. Might be significant, it might not, because whoever replaces him they'll probably move on to character assassination of them as well. Corbyn's something of an exception in that rule. Ten thirty two is the time. Dominic Ellis has your headlines. Ten thirty-six. Mark in Lim made this point before I just shared with you my uh analysis of how the right wing are.

Um currently reacting to Kir Starmer. So I'll give him the credit. I hadn't seen this it it came in at ten twenty, so I should have done. There is one alarm bell ringing for me, he writes, or maybe I had read it and and I hadn't actually clocked it, I'd just subconsciously absorbed by a process of intellectual osmosis the point being made. All the Tories reform are trying to get rid of Starmer. Um so Mr and Mrs Rong from Wrongsville are suggesting that Starmer should resign or be replaced.

Just think about that for a minute. Um yeah, I mean you're right, but one of my favourite commentators from the left Polly Toynbee is is also suggesting. Days are numbered, Mark and I don't think well you could describe her as Mrs. Rong from Wrongsville if you want, but you certainly can't describe her as Tory or um uh uh reform

adjacent ten thirty seven is the time. And uh well we're reading out messages that I should have read out earlier. This from Stu. I'm a big big fan. That's a good way to start a message. I'm a big big fan but that that that works. Like I love you but

So that's if you want to get something negative read out, just preface it with the words I love you butt or I'm a big, big fan, but only James could say let's jump right into the calls after doing a twenty minute monologue. Well, you say that, Stu. I think I could make a case for arguing that that was quite an early Felly mae'n llawer o'r hyn sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n

I think this is the only possible outcome that we could have seen, James. I think Starmer is thinking not only for his own kind of political survival, but more importantly for the stability of the government. And I think if If Burnham had got in, it would have just opened the floodgates not only for loads of speculation and another campaign, election campaign around the mayoralty, but then also for every single twist and turn, every ups and every all the downs and the pitfalls up.

Sama would be seeing for the rest of his term. There would be that sniping, there would be the media speculation of Is Burnham gonna go and try and and seat him? And I think there would be a temptation. Well I think and I think Burnham by actually the way that he's applied to do this as well, he saw permission from the NEC instead of going to Starmer first.

I think Burnham's like you know, laid his cards out there and made it clear that if he does go in, he's possibly is going in to basically try and unseat Starman. And and and uh that's probably a little bit of Pep what's the word I want? Not petulance. What's the word for like being a little bit previous. Oh previous will do. It's probably a little bit previous of Andy Burnham to have um uh become so entirely associated with the leadership challenge.

I I think so, but then I mean and yeah, and I mean you see that in his response as well, th whether he gave out about, you know, the response that the NEC had made not to block him. But I think the other thing to say is There needs to come a point but I don't think it's now when Starmer thinks what is best for the country. Now presuming he thinks Labour is best for the country, he needs to look at who is best for Labour and the Poland are saying it isn't him and it is Burnham. So

You know, are you getting to some sort of thing where they make a deal or whatever, but I think to bring in Burnham at this stage would have just been too problematic for the rest of Keir Starmer's term. And uh yeah, and and that's presuming he wins.

Because of course if he loses the by election they lose the other thing, you mentioned that at the top, didn't you? The in the internal polling is saying that they might not even win it, which is another good reason for Starman not to have allowed him to go. I'cause I've I've tried to write down the various permutations that could happen.

Um but it's probably gonna be as successful yesterday as my attempt to describe the difference between a rock and a hard place and ending up having to introduce a cliff face and a brick wall because there were so many different paths that things could go down. But you've got lose lose.

which is Burnham runs for parliament and frees up the mayoralty and they lose both of the resulting elections. You've got you've got lose keep, which is now on the table, which is that they lose the by election but Burnham doesn't fight it, so they keep the mayoralty. And then you've got win keep, which is

Burnham doesn't run, whoever does run, Jonathan Ashworth or AN other, they somehow win a by election against all the odds, and of course they hang on to the mayoralty. Or um you've got win win, which would involve Burnham running. Winning and then another candidate running for mayor and winning as well. And I think most people would probably put that fourth option in fourth place in terms of likelihood. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I mean I think it's a little bit more than a lot And I like I say, I think y the problem with that is as well there's there's there's so much risk in it but then there's the noise around it and you're gonna have all of the media kind of

you know, unpicking the different results of it. I just think it's too messy and it's the expense of it as well. I yes, I d yeah, no I mean I don't know that that gets taken into many individual voters calculus, but I'll tell you what you've done, Carl, and all the callers today have done. It answered the question I was asking earlier.

It's a little bit stupid of me really not to realise. It's how do you cut through the fact that almost all of the coverage, certainly the print coverage in this country has to be viewed through the lens of a hideously biased media ownership, you know, who the owner of the Daily Mail, the owner of the Times, the owner of the Sun. In fact they're all edited now by um former proteges or apprentices to to Paul Daker.

um the maddest man in Madsville. Uh currently a little bit preoccupied of course at the High Court. But the the the the nature of print media in this country is so utterly bent that you can sit here wondering how you cut through it. When the answer's staring us in the face. You just set the facts out correctly and open up your phone lines. So far

quite good listening for Keir Starmer. Not or I mean, albeit that there aren't exactly any cheerleaders on the line. In terms of pragmatism and utilitarianism, he kinda had to do this, and although I'm not part of this, there is a sort of sense in my inbox of people who Still think he can turn the oil tanker around. Adam is in um Haverhill, Haverhill. Haver Hill, Haverhill. Haver Hill. What would you like to say, Adam?

Hi James. Hello. Um I agree with um your previous callers. I think Kit Starmer made exactly the right decision. Um it the whole thing was a kind of lose lose really for Starmer. But I think I think he he took the win that was there, you know, and I and I think he was had to make the right decision to make. Um, simply because of all the calculations that we've been running through. Is uh I mean of all the options that could happen.

But when you combine combine likelihood and desirability, there's a trade off, isn't there, between likelihood and desirability. You don't put all your money on what you want to happen. Yeah y you split your bet according to what is likely to happen and this way the the worst case scenario is that they lose a by election and hang on to the meralty, which closes down the worst case scenario scenario which is they lose a by election and lose the meralty.

Absolutely. What about the cowardice angle? Um I mean I'm gonna quote Polly Toynbee, who I am a big fan of. She's one of my favourite writers and indeed one of my favourite thinkers. Declaring war on Andy Burnham anoints him as a northern martyr and hero and casts Keir Starmer as a coward. I don't agree with that either. No, I don't think I do anymore. I did at ten o'clock. This is what happens. This is what happens when you listen to other people. No wonder so few people do it.

Exactly. We should never listen to anybody. We should never listen to anybody. Pick your opinions and stick to them. And if you don't like them I've got others. Because Exactly. Because of the way that we've broken it down and also because of the character that Starmer seems to be. Cowardice probably wouldn't come into the calculations. No, I I think I think Starmer is completely pragmatic.

Um I I my concerns are that um his the advice he gets from his current chief of staff um is taking down routes that maybe the the government should not be going down. Um but as to Stamm himself, you know, I've heard him described as a non idealist, um uh in the sense that, you know, he's someone that will look at a problem and try to solve it. rather than coming to it with any ideological papa baggage.

And you know, that that's something I completely subscribe to. But I mean, I think sometimes the w the I mean, people do bang on about labor labor comms. Um and I do think there's it's not really worked so far and they just need to find um uh you know, they need to find uh an answer to that particularly sort of knotty equation. Um so that they can actually communicate properly properly or m well not properly but more effectively

with the people of the country. Um so that they they I mean they do try but th th I mean it to a certain extent. But the the problem is is that overwhelmingly the media are acting as the official opposition as Tom Baldwin put it. Yeah, but they always will. I mean it doesn't matter who's in charge of later. I Tony Blair somehow managed to

walk that tightrope with with but but you know, he ended up godfather to one of Rupert Murdoch's children. So there are there are some did he really Yes, he really did. I'm beginning to think you haven't read my last book, Adam. But there are some there are some parts that you wouldn't necessarily want any politician to go down, let alone an ostensibly left wing one. It is ten forty five. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Um a quick one from Tom actually,'cause this is quite

Thoughtful as well. Manchester resident for over twenty years, married to a Mancunian, kids are Mancunian. Doesn't that make you a Mancunian Tom? We don't want to go all Sueella Braverman, who of course doesn't think she or her kids can be English. Um despite being English, only Sir Keir is actually thinking about Manchester. Manchester has been left out of this conversation. Andy Burnman does now need to go, but in a managed transition for an equally experienced and competent Labour candidate.

For example, Rayner or Reynolds, I think you mean Starmer at that point, Nandy Powell, etcetera. Manchester cannot be left in the lurch. just because we're economically successful and a few MPs want a leadership change in London. Manchester has been left out of the conversation. That is the point I was trying to make earlier, when when I I I said I think we're under

Uh pricing, because the cov a lot of coverage is coming out of Westminster, what you'd feel like as a Labour voter in Manchester, who got the mayor you wanted, who described it as the dream job, the job of his life, the only job he'd ever wanted. ten forty six is the time. It is ten minutes to eleven and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Um you'll be aware uh already, certainly if you've had your radio on, that today is Holocaust Memorial Day.

Rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy. Uh it's called Bridging Generations and it recognises the challenge of keeping remembrance alive after survivors have

passed on, children, grandchildren, and of course all of us. So I I do want you to if you've got something to do, come back at eleven forty five when I'll be joined by one of the authors of a book that recounts a a truly extraordinary story. uh the only um uh known story of Holocaust survivors walking away from a gas chamber. I don't want to tell you much more about it because it i it has such sort of um

narrative impact. I want you to hear it f fresh as it were from One of the authors mails, but I will tell you that eight hundred boys aged thirteen to seventeen years were taken out of block eleven at Auschwitz on an October day in nineteen forty four.

Mae'r stori o sut 51 o'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r hyn. And we will meet with Naftali Schiff, one of the authors of this book, in about an hour's time. So I just want to give you a quick heads up for that. We'll also be commemorating Holocaust Memorial Day.

on LBC throughout um all of our programming today. Ten fifty one is the time. Back to the question of Keir Starmer and Andy Burnham, the good people of Manchester, the mayoralty, the by-election, stability, utilitarianism and the future. Just off the top of my head. Joe's in Colchester. Joe, what would you like to say? Hi James, how are you? All right. Very well, mate. What's on your mind?

Good, good. Um yeah, I just wanna say I think that Starmer's made the worst decision he can make. Um, it is a very much a catch twenty two situation for him. There's no there's no uh good outcome um from from Burnham applying, but Uh to block him was uh the wrong decision in the interests of both democracy, the Labour Party and his own interest. Don't tell me more

Felly, felly, felly... Felly, felly... Felly, felly... Felly, felly... Felly... Felly... Felly... Felly... Felly... Felly... Felly... Felly... Felly... Felly... And the people that voted for him will be told, sorry, it doesn't matter what you voted for two years ago, you're gonna have to choose another one now So I mean th there's there's an argument both against and in favour of democracy being undermined. Yeah, but it it it's up to the local constituent to decide on its candidate.

So if the local constituency decide they want Andy Burnham is the candidate, um there will be another mayoral election which will give people the chance to demonstrate there. Again the Labour Party constitution The Labour Party constitution states that they need to be approved by the NEC. That's not it's not like they've invented a rule to keep burn em out.

No, no, no. I don't believe in that constitution and so did Starmer said a few years ago he didn't believe that the NEC should be blocking candidates and that they should be decided by the uh by the by the local party, by the local uh constituency. And that hurts him now. No they that's he should decide the candidate. Okay. I quite can I g I quite like this. Um I I I'm struck that this is the political equivalent of football.'Cause you're in Essex.

With uh with with with a passionate passionate support for a manconian mare. I think yeah, yes I am. A hundred percent. Yeah. I but I think Mandy Burnham would make a great prime minister. Um my hope that when Keir Starmer came in is that this would happen. Um I supported Starmer for the beginning, um until he rolled back on everything that he promised of the the members.

Ac yw'n ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r hynny. Um, but you know, that aside, I think for Starmer's own interests and for the interests of the Labour Party, he's made a absolute blunder of a decision. If he was to let Burnham run, it's been noted that Burnham might not win. So let's have a look at that situation. If Burnham didn't win,

His problems are over. There's no leadership contest coming. Burnham's finished.

Mae'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid i'n rhaid They arguably could have neither the mayoralty nor the constituency. And Keir Starmer's job is to manage the Labour Party as well as to run the government.

And that no manager on the planet would would claim that losing the league and the cup was actually the right thing to have deliberately put yourself in a position to do. No, but who would take the flak if that was to happen? Who Starmer let's be realistic. Stormer would I don't think he would. I think that's a good thing. He'd take it from the right wing media and losing No, he'd take it from well, he'd take it from you, Joe, let's be honest, and he'd take it from all of the media as well.

And he'd probably take it from the parliamentary Labour. His leadership challenge would be over. Um yeah, look. If they if they lost the mayoral and the thing and he immediately accepted burn him in without any uh hesitation. Maybe there would be some spin on it, s some spin on him, um some bad press on him.

I think that Burnham would come out worse off ha if he was to lose that elect that s that that's the likelihood in, from my opinion, is Burnham will win that hands down. If he do he doesn't run, they will lose it. Okay. I mean you I mean that's a win for you. That that's a win for you'cause that's never going to be tested. So that's you can be y you know, y y y you you can have that. No one can ever take that away from you. I I you can be certain.

that Burnham would have won. And you might be right, but I d you haven't persuaded me. I w we will we will um agree to disagree on this in in the the calculations I've undertaken. I was closer to where you are now at ten o'clock this morning than I am now, but the calculations you've undertaken do two things.

I think they over egg Burnham's electoral appeal, both in in the constituency and and in the broader country, and they under um value some of the things that Starmer and his team have said. Uh most obviously this resources Whether that's money or people, need to be focused on the elections that we must have, not elections that we don't have to have. And so um the the sorry, go on.

But but we we we know Yeah, but we know the seat is going to be a challenge and therefore we need the best candidate to run it. And let's be honest, the the the new mayoral candidate would be fully supported by Andy Burnham, would be somebody that was that would be designed to continue the project that Andy Burnham has started.

And it I I Burnham you know, I believe would have a very, very strong chance of of of of of retaining that seat with Burnham's full support. Burnham would give his absolute full support to that candidate. And would basically um you know, that candidate would be running on the basis that they will continue everything that Burnham's already the great work that Burnham's been doing in Manchester. I I and you I mean you're right. All the all of the counterfactuals are on your side. Um because

And you could say I'm confident that I'm right and you can't no one can ever prove it otherwise. But in terms of working out what is likely to happen um or what is possible as opposed to what you wish for or what you think is probable, shutting down lose lose for most people seems like a bigger priority than rolling the dice. on the possibility of win win. And what you've got instead is worst case scenario, lose keep, best case scenario, win keep.

under your analysis you've got worst case scenario, lose lose. And that's off the table entirely. So that's the pragmatic course to take. If you remove the personalities from it and don't allow yourself to be swayed by the question of whether you want Keir Starmer to be replaced. I don't see how you can overcome that utilitarian argument. You've taken lose lose off the table. You've left win win on it.

But you've increased the likelihood of of of lose win or at least lose keep. Ten fifty nine is the time. Um shall I squeeze in Alan in Sheffield or or shall we hit the news on time for once?

Alan, I'll give you one minute. What would you like to say? Yeah, I mean the the reality is it was a very difficult decision and I thought I'm not sure he could have won whatever he did. Well he ha I mean there's no good outcome. It's all bad. It's gradations of badness.

But the reality is, I mean I I I canvas on the ground in Sheffield quite a lot and Labour are very, very unpopular at the moment. And what would have happened and if you look at the latest opinion polls for the Greater Manchester, w we are down Labour are down by twelve points in the morality. So what you'd have done, you've had an un an unnecessary election, you would have lost the by election to reform, you would have lost the morality to reform.

You then in May lose places like Birmingham, you lose places like Barnsley and you're in for a disaster. And Starmer and the people that uh down in London know that and you know it it's a situation where they can do very little about because there is an irrational hatred of Starmer on the doorstep.

in four working class areas which has been built up from a whole variety of sources. What are your favourite sources? What are your favourite sources? This is this Eleanor and I are fascinated by this. We talk about it quite a lot because it's visceral. This hatred. And and you know, I I can understand a visceral hatred of

whose uh law enforcement officers are shooting civilians in the face. I can understand a visceral hatred of a politician who lies through his teeth about leaving the European Union or or or or or being anti Semitic in his school days or whatever that behavior is. I can understand a visceral reaction to that. How do we account for a visceral reaction to what we're doing? could be best described as a sort of excessive managerialism.

Well I don't and I I taught politics for thirty five years at thirty years at a university. And I can't ex I can't explain it because people you know, he's not the worst political we've ever had, he's not the best. But the the hatred comes from a place You know, which p people like Reform are now You must be online. I mean online sort of demonization. We had that conversation yesterday about the racist accounts that are just utterly fraudulent.

Kirstarm has been on the receiving end of Similar, but it doesn't necessarily it's also casts our fellow citizens in an appalling uh light, doesn't it, that they'd be so susceptible to that. But, you know, you can say he's not his he's let us down have been quite unimpressed, but a visceral hatred of him as an individual is is just weird.

I I mean there's quite a lot to talk about today, or none of which takes us back happily to US politics, although um if anything happens Up next, I I think I'm drawn to my all time favourite subject. Do you know what that is?

We just did it again, didn't we? Of course there's a topic there. I don't know why we've we've never done it, have we? Can anyone s uh you've got a better memory than I have these days. Have we ever done uh a deep dive into the visceral hatred of Kirstama? Can't believe you pointing out that Sadiq Khan can suffer from similar expressions of hatred. But I with with Sadiq, you know, an awful lot of it at least has its roots in racism.

But it's not so I uh the Eleanor who produces s this program, I nearly said allegedly, but that would sound like I was criticizing her instead of criticising the programme. So I could say Eleanor who produces this alleged programme. Um Has a favourite subject. She's fascinated by um diet, obesity in general, um particularly among children. And one of my all time favourite subjects is not poetry about potholes, as one's self appointed wit just suggested on WhatsApp.

Uh is class. I I find class and the relationship that our country has with class abidingly fascinating. I I actually don't believe that we're ever gonna have anything close to equality, never mind the sort of social mobility that we took for granted in my childhood without addressing some of the great

um issues and problems that class creates. Even that story that is the definition of Labour's current problem in in that it's a great story and it's a great policy, but it's not, for want of a better word, sexy. about leaseholders and ground rents. You know, why does England and Wales have a system uh under which people can pay uh huge sums of money for the privilege of living in their own home?

Uh and and the answer is feudalism. The answer is that it actually goes back to medieval times. And that is a a direct consequence of having selfdom and a hierarchy of humanity that had people at the top with everything and people at the bottom with absolutely nothing. And if the people near the bottom had something, then the people at the top wanted a piece of the action, wanted a slice.

Most of the leaseholds I come across, um, and I look in estate agent windows in central London are uh are uh owned by members of the aristocracy or the royal family. I don't know yet how that will be affected by Labour's new policies. But Graham points out that I'm not being entirely honest with you when I suggest that class is my favourite subject because my favourite subject is obviously myself.

You you raise a valid point, Graham, actually, but not one that I'm going to explore any further today.'Cause these are the headlines that break my heart. A quarter of GPs are seeing obese children aged four or younger. Almost a quarter of GPs are seeing children age four or younger who are obese. About half of GPs have seen boys and girls up to the age of seven who have obesity. A handful are younger than a year old.

Mae llawer yn ymwneud â llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer. In the context of what we have recently come to call fat shaming. So I'm Fifty-four years old, would you believe? Last week. Um I know, I don't look it. It's all the tinted moisturizer probably. I um I look at my school days and I remember For good or for ill, but this was far from extraordinary or unique.

I remember the lads'cause I was mostly at all boys' schools, from from the age of seven I was at all b all boys' schools. I look at the lads who were probably obese, although I don't think it was a word that we used much, um, at the time.

If I'd been overweight probably would have been my nickname, actually. I uh uh'cause of my initials,'cause of the O B at the beginning of my name. But I I can remember them. I've told you this before. So I would say that the lad In my class and the class above and probably the year below as well, out of say twenty kids, there would be one or two that were were notably large.

Um, and their nicknames would reflect their largeness. Uh I and I would once have argued affectionately, but of course I'd have to ask them that, wouldn't I? Uh i I I what I say is that when we used those nicknames, uh one of which uh uh actually three of which I can remember were bestowed by a maths teacher, by the same maths teacher.

um who also doubled up as a PE teacher and it was at P E that h that the the their obesity would be pointed out and reflected in the quotes funny stroke clever end quotes nicknames that the maths teacher came up with for them. I can remember the nicknames to this day and I can remember the um uh the actual names of the lads concerned. And we didn't think anything of it. We certainly didn't think it was cruel or unkind.

But We didn't acknowledge or really think about any health implications either. Now you come to today when if I were to comment on your weight in any way, shape or form, or your child's weight, you would think that I had taken leave of my senses. Um possibly you can still compliment people on being slim. We still live in a tyranny of slimness in in our country, in our society, but

If I were to say to you, God, you've put on a bit of weight or or you can tell people they've lost weight, can't you? Can't you? You can tell'cause I mean it's happened a lot with the jabs and the Azempic lately. You can t say to people, Gosh, you've lost weight, you look well.

Every or uh but you can't in the context of children, you can't fat shame, which is absolutely as it should be. But obesity is a major health problem, and the idea of an obese baby, a child under the age of one, being obese. should be setting off alarm bells in every single corner of the family, and indeed the doctor's surgery.

I don't want and I'm doing this a lot at the moment and I and I'm not a hundred percent sure I'm gonna carry on doing it, telling you what I don't want you to do in the context of a phonem, but I don't want to have a conversation about the unreliability of body mass index.

as a gauge for obesity. Because everybody's already heard it before. And for the avoidance of that, we're talking about children who are obese. Children who who are it uh uh sufficiently overweight to endanger their health, okay? I know that England prop forwards have body mass indexes that relate to obesity despite not having an ounce of um of fat on them, but that's not the point of this phoning, so you know, spare us.

You remember the characters in children's fiction, you remember the characters in Grange Hill, who were notable for their size and singled out because of it, who who were ridiculed in some senses, or or at least recognized as a consequence of their Um

So I understand I think why doctors have got such a problem on their hands. That that was the bit of the story that grabbed my attention. Not I mean the headline is immediately arresting, but the the idea that doctors find it difficult to talk to children or their parents about the condition. And I don't know what the question is here, apart from how do you talk to children or their parents about obese children?

I I suspect that grandparents do more harm than good if they start weighing in and laying down the law or commenting upon the size of their grandchildren as a way of um perhaps criticizing their their mother. in some contexts. I I just I don't know how you do it.

But you have to do it. So you go round to grandma's and she's got a big bucket of sweets on the sitting room table and simultaneously she's tutting and and whoring at um with H A W I N G uh at Mum as a way of sort of having a swing at her daughter in law for um for fattening up the children.

Boys probably get a much easier ride than girls, do they still in our society? So an a so an obese boy is is probably gonna be complimented for the healthiness of his appetite, whereas a an obese little girl is um, going to be fat shamed. I don't know. I as I say, I I was only at school with boys from the age of about seven. Onward.

Yes. Um yeah, and as Alyssa points out, you shouldn't say that you look well to somebody who has lost weight because you're implying that they looked awful when they were bigger. And it could also have been unintentional weight loss as an illness. So you're probably better off not commenting on anybody else's weight ever. In which case how do you deal with obesity?

Ooh, that is actually a brilliant question. So I quite like the idea of living in a world where nobody ever comments on anybody else's weight. And I speak of someone who went through a a shameful period. in presenting this programme where I routinely and very enthusiastically ridiculed obese people. Uh, I don't know why it's such a popular trope for lazy, performative

media figures, which I was. Roll out that ludicrous claim that all you have to do is eat less and exercise more, as if it were easy. Somebody said to me in the middle of that period of my life, imagine that you encountered somebody with bulimia or anorexia and you shouted down your radio microphone that they should just eat more and exercise less. How big an idiot would you be? How vicious and cruel and unpleasant would you be?

Answer very. So why on earth was it okay for years to just shout eat less and exercise more at people who were obese? Not not all of whom would have an eating disorder in medical context, but it th but the crassness of it. ymwneud â phobl ymwneud â phobl ymwneud â phobl ymwneud â phobl ymwneud â phobl. But given that we want to live in a world where none of us ever comment on anybody's way ever, especially children.

Alyssa's point notwithstanding, if you went on a massive diet and lost loads of weight, you'd probably want your mates to point it out, wouldn't you? How do you do that? Should we do that as well? So we're all now seeing the benefits or at least the effects. of fat jabs. We're all seeing friends and colleagues who have lost decent and significant amounts of weight. My in my my gut reaction is to compliment them.

If you've gone on a course of medication to lose weight, then obviously you wanted to lose weight, and if it has succeeded, you have been successful, therefore my gut reaction would be to to compliment you. That's okay, right? There's so much wiggle room here. You y so you probably don't want to live in a world where we never comment on anybody else's way ever.

Because then you wouldn't get complimented when you Especially if you've actually dieted and you've tried really hard and you've changed your mental wiring. and succeeded in all sorts of areas where you didn't previously think you would succeed, you'd quite like a pat on the back, right? I nearly said a biscuit then, which would have been unhelpful in the circumstances. You'd quite like a pat on the back, you'd quite like a well done.

We don't necessarily want to live in a world where nobody ever mentions anybody else's weight ever. But if we're talking about children So how on earth do you do it? How do you address I mean question number one, why do we have still, given all the public health work that is being done. Why do we still have such a heartbreaking problem with childhood obesity? O three four four four four four four four four four four five six oh six oh nine seven three

Question number two, how on earth do you do this? We understand so much more about eating disorders now and the outwardly sometimes quite small triggers that can prompt huge responses. You have to be so careful. in not feeding obsession or obsessive behaviour. You have a child with an obesity problem and you recognize that it is a problem that we should be trying to solve and We have absolutely no idea how to do so. And we can't feel bad about it.

Because four out of five family doctors find it difficult to talk to children or their parents about the children's obesity.

I suppose if there are any GPs listening, you can tell me why. Why is it so hard, given that it didn't used to be? Um presumably for reasons that we would largely regard as positive. Question number two or or at least point number two, that four out of five family doctors find it difficult to talk to children or their parents about their condition. I would cautiously suggest that the one out of five

GPs who've told researchers they find it easy to talk to children or their parents about obesity, some of them may be doing massive harm. You can imagine the kind of GP that I'm talking about, can't you? Just turn around and say, and you j and you're too fat. To a child who then carries that scar, I think, for an incredibly long time. If you were an obese child, have you got any idea what what would help? Or what would have helped you? That maybe is is one white so GP's front of the queue?

People who were obese children, front of the queue, what would have helped you? And how on earth do you address this issue? Whether you're a doctor, a parent, a grandparent, a friend, I don't think a friend. I d I honestly. Talked about obesity a million times on this programme, talked about diet, talked about health, talked about Monjaro and Ozempic and all the rest of it, but I don't know that I've ever asked you. How on earth did you

You talk to an obese child about their weight and health, or even the parents of an obese child. How does a parent talk to a child about obesity? without making everything worse. How do you address the physical without damaging the mental? I'm gonna cautiously suggest to you at nineteen minutes after eleven that you can't. You can't. You cannot bring a child's attention to their own obesity without doing that child mental harm.

And what do we d if that's right, what the hell do we do with that discovery? So I've said quite a lot of words. All roughly about the same subject. I've asked you some questions, not like razor sharp questions, not laser focused questions, but you now know as much about this topic as I do, and you share my confusion about how we've ended up in this situation. And you also now, with me, wrestle with this question of whether or not it's actually true that you can never address

a child's obesity with that child, or indeed with their parents. The one in five GPs who think it's easy are probably making everything worse. That's the question. How on earth do you do it? O three four five six zero six zero nine seven three Um and how do you undo it? How do you undo this obesity? Is a problem because these kids will more than likely grow up to be obese and therefore become um living s uh not living their best lives in many ways. That's a sad thing.

Come at this from any angle you want. Phone lines are open. The number you need, as always, is 0345-6060-973.

Twenty two minutes after eleven. confronted before or even contemplated the fact that doctors feel they can't talk to children or their parents about children's obesity. And that that that is I mean, I don't want to say fascinating'cause I'm making light of the difficulties and the problems that this highlights, but it's something that we need to talk about. Rachel is in Worcester. Rachel, what would you like to say?

So I'm just gonna give you a quick overview of myself and then sort of explain to you about my son. So my mum um was a bit of a hippie and she exclusively breastfed me. I was born in nineteen eighty and she was told to diet me because I was fat baby, even though it's exclusively breastfed. And my mum was absolutely horrified. How how do you diet a baby that's exclusively breastfed? And she breastfeed I'm not being f silly, but don't you just breastfeed them less?

Um, i you could do, but then the baby would be really hungry and no, I just I'm being an idiot. Carry on. So um yeah, so Uh that happened. I was then a fat child, had to have clothes made, went to Weight Watchers at ten. I've been up and down with my weight all my life. I've always known what I am. And then my doctor did tackle me over it and said, Look, I think you need to go for a bypass because

you know, this is not a gastrate a gastrate bypass. Yeah, a gastric bypass, which I had in April and it has been life changing and it's been amazing. But my su but what I have discovered because w I was referred to the tier three weight management is that obesity isn't about just what you consume and what you exercise, it's actually much more complex. And if you go through the dietitians in the NHS, obesity is recognised as a chronic disease. Yes, I know.

And the thing is But that's why I do the parallel with anorexia actually,'cause it's so no one would ever say to to an anorexic person, Why don't you just eat more and exercise less? Yeah, I know. And yeah, everyone shouts at people like you that you should just eat less and exercise more. Do you know what? I've done that all my life I you know, all my life. But I know what I am. And my grandmother also suffered with weight and my son, who's twelve, now suffers with his weight and he

You know, he says to me, I just wish I was like my friend's mummy. I eat half of what they do and I'm big. And I know he he is and he knows w what to do. I'm well educated on food, particularly after going through the Tier three weight management service programme. And you know, the i it isn't

just about what you put in and what com and what you do exercise wise. There is so much more complexity to it. And it's not even that you're necessarily overeating that's made you overweight. It can be gut bacteria. they told me that that it's massively under researched the cause of obesity. Yeah of course how many Well every family knows this, because every family will be feeding their children the same things and watching very different bodies emerge.

We need to have a big overhaul and research into obesity on the causes of it and also explain to parents, you know, it we don't mean it's your fault. What we mean is uh we just wanna check your well educated. How did you do it with your boy? How do you how do you have that?'Cause you did you tell me what he said. You didn't tell me what you said in response.

Um uh to which bit? I said to him, I am so sorry, my darling. I said, I am exactly the same. I said, You've seen me. I've been a size twenty four and now I'm a size fourteen. He knows that I've suffered'cause I'm open about it. And I say to him, it is just really hard. I said to him, obviously, being a man, men often find it slightly easier to shift weight because they've got heavier muscle mass, so their output of calories is generally more than women.

So I'm hoping that perhaps when he grows tall, I mean he's twelve, he hasn't quite hit puberty yet, but it will h it will help. Um my uncle was the same actually and he did shoot up and and and did slim down. So I'm kind of waiting for that. Otherwise I'm gonna be saying to him, don't wait until you're in your forties to have a bypass. W you know, try and get it earlier because it is life changing. But

Having bariatric surgery is robbing Peter to pay poles. So you do uh you know, I will be in a state of malnutrition now for life and I will have to have B twelve injections every three months for life. I have to have Cal C D, I have to have iron pills, I have to take loads of other vitamins and things. So I'm not, you know, walking around health free and I also wouldn't recommend going and having any of this type of surgery privately because the NHS

Some will take you on, but there's so much w after work I wouldn't recommend it. But ultimately It's about the way that a person is approached. My doctor my husband said he was such a brave man and still lacks Well what did he do? We we can't really give advice on on on medical poach. No, I'm just hang on, d I I need to say this. Uh d we we we can't I mean

Neither of us should really be giving advice on medical matters'cause neither of us are are qualified. You need to t obviously speak to your doctor, speak to the NHS and follow whatever advice you're given. What did your doctor do that your husband thought was brave?

Uh he he said to me, Mm, you are overweight, which you haven't always been and he said, Is there something going on? And I said, Actually I've always suffered with my weight. I've just always tr tried to diet but it I've realised now at I I was thirty seven at the time when I decided to jack in dieting and I said, uh it messes with my mental health'cause you lose all that weight

It's really hard work and then it always goes back on. I said, I can't do that to me or my body anymore. I need to accept what I am and I said, I have accepted it and I'm actually happy with my size. Um and he said to me, But you will die young if you don't do it. Nothing. So this G well I mean, would he be able to do the same thing if if he was talking about a child, do you think? You say to her'cause he sounds like one of the one in five GPs that doesn't really struggle with delivering these

But he had such a good bedside manner. He was so kind and so nice and he was happy to listen and it j I said to him, I don't really want to go for a bypass. And it he said to me, No no, it's very meetings. Yeah, I mean it's just see what it's like. I d I d and and again I I think obviously the conversation that that we're having today would fall short of

Um, bariatric surgery for most of the people that we're thinking about. And certainly in the context of how you deal with I and I'm delighted that things have worked out so well for you, Rachel, but in the context of how you deal with obese children. Um I mean certainly as you've suggested in the context of your son it might be something that is further down the road when when when they grow up, but in the in the

Um a a question of how you help now, um I I I d I don't think bariatrics I don't think you're suggesting it, but I certainly don't think anybody would suggest that um bariatric surgery would be a solution to childhood obesity. So what is the the the the solution not even to the obesity but to having the conversation. Why and this is something that we can all have a think about, not just people with personal experience of the issue.

Wha why would a doctor have a problem telling the parents that the child is obese? It it puts me in mind of the generational shift in how parents respond to teachers telling them that their child has been naughty. It's a great cartoon. I've mentioned it to you a few times. I can never fully remember it and every time I mention it you send me it.

Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. In the naughtys the the argument is that the teacher would get into trouble. So the parent mum and dad sit down on parents' evening and the teacher says, I'm afraid uh we've got some terrible problems with Keith's behaviour.

And uh and it's like, Well, wait till I get you home, Keith. Uh you g this we're gonna sort and and now you'd sit down and the teacher would have some terrible problems with Keith's behaviour. How dare you how dare you criticize Keith? Um th that possibly is the doctor's equivalent, in that once no one would have thought twice about saying your your child is obese, we're gonna have to do something about it. Why why would doctors now be

troubled or find it difficult to tell a parent that their child is obese? I want you to answer that question. There's a couple of finance free and there's the one that Rachel's vacating now as well, so you know the number. Dominic Ellis has the headline. It is 26 minutes to 12, and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC, where I mean childhood obesity, you'd think given the amount of time that's dedicated to discussing it.

it would have been solved by now. Because it feels more solvable than some of the things that we spend an awful lot of time discussing. Uh y yeah and yet here we are, looking at a a country in which a a a dizzying number of doctors are encountering obese children and in which four out of five GPs tell us that they don't know how to raise the subject or they're not comfortable raising the subject.

With either the child, which is probably fair enough, or the parent. Here's a question for you. Hay Haley and Tracy up next, but here's a question we could get to. When you were small, but also obese. Did anybody get it right? Did anybody actually draw attention to the need for you to lose weight in a way that looking back you think was helpful and healthy?'Cause I can't for the life of me imagine what it was. Because even if they do it via your parents, your parents are gonna have to

Bite the bullet, aren't they? Your parents are going to have to institute the changes. So when you look back, the um The the uh at your childhood obesity and the attempts made by outsiders, doctors, or insiders, parents, to address it. Worked. Because I can't at twenty-five to twelve, I can't come up with a thing that would work. What actually worked?

And Rachel in Worcester a moment ago, absolutely right to remind us that this is a huge and complicated subject and the eat less exercise more mantra is is about as helpful as a chocolate teapot. So what actually worked when you look back? And I and don't well no, I can't say that, can I?'Cause it's your life, not mine. But that old the other mantra I hate is you've got to be cruel to be kind.

What damage is done? I don't know. I'll shut up and listen to you. Hayley's on the Isle of Dogs. Hayley, what would you like to say? Hi there, how are you? Very well, thanks. What's on your mind? So, quickly, my father died of complications from being morbidly obese during Covid. I'm almost fifty and was um obese as a child. Um, when I was nobody told me to do anything about it. Obviously I was aware of it. When I was thirteen I took myself to Weight Watchers. Good Lord.

ended up becoming anorexic and struggled with anorexia throughout my teens. Only sort of got better whilst I was at university. Right. Um moving on quite a few years, my daughter who was And she spent a few years in and out of, you know, mental health hospitals. Thankfully she's now almost eighteen and she's doing amazing and better. But one experience which I really vividly remember is going to the doctor with her when we knew she was anorexic because I could see the patterns.

And the doctor looked at her and said, You just need to eat a bit more. I'm like, Okay, so that was then Oh boy. Two years ago. So that's and that's one of the doctors that doesn't think That they are uncomfortable talking to people, uh talking to children about that's the point I was trying to make about s so four out of five say they're uncomfortable and I worry about the one in five who think they're comfortable'cause they're probably saying things like that.

Exactly. So and also what I would like to say is um you m you must never put a child on a diet. Um if Anorexia's very complicated and there's a genetic link, various other things. But it i it's very, very complicated. Obviously the ch the parents need to be educated in adjusting the diet, but if you put a child on a diet like me Um, it's very easy to get to a weight where it switches over to anorexia which is a lot more

So how do you do it then? How would you do it? I I don't know. Uh that that's the answer is I don't know, but all I know is from My experience it was bad and it was only down to us as parents that got our daughter better because I knew what the signs were in the history. And so we can we can make a long list of how not to do it.

And whatever we're left with at the end might possibly point us towards to how to do it.'Cause at the moment that's an empty piece of paper. Don't put them on a diet, don't tell them to eat less. I mean that the opposite equivalent of what you'll put d what your daughter was told.

And and don't um don't even draw attention to it. I can't imagine there are any overweight people in the world who don't know they're overweight. Can you but wh at what age do you think you've become conscious of it? Mm Mine was probably in primary school. Um I went to a very nice school, didn't really get teased, but it was being aware that children were wearing different clothes and I had to wear elasticated waists and things like that.

Um, that's when I became aware. But very quickly I think I lost three stone in about eight months. Wow. Um, at the age of thirteen and then, you know, struggled with being very underweight for quite a number of years. Of course. Of course, and and I I mean I suppose in some ways that the the battle is never over. I mean you're always conscious of it and it i it i it I mean i i i it's only ever under control, it's never completely banished, is that right?

There are elements of that. I mean you can recover completely from anorexia but um it needs i it's a very complicated illness and involves yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n a weight that's healthy for them, they're never going to be fully mentally recovered. I and I mean I'd so grateful to you for for everything you've said, but also for using those those three such

crucial words that you hardly ever hear in public discourse anymore. I I don't know. I hear them quite a lot on this programme, probably but that's a probably a mark of weakness on my part. Um but I don't know. I so what do you do? I don't know. And that's why A, four out of five doctors are uncomfortable having this conversation with children and or their parents and B,

I was actually more worried about the one in five who weren't uncomfortable addressing such sensitive issues'cause the chances are they're gonna be coming out with something as crass and unhelpful as what Haley's daughter heard in the GP surgery, coming at it from if you like the opposite end of the uh ymwneud â phobl yn ymwneud â phobl yn ymwneud â phobl yn ymwneud â phobl yn ymwneud â phobl yn ymwneud â phobl yn ymwneud â phobl yn ymwneud â phobl

eleven, forty years a time, how how the hell would we do? How have we got to twenty twenty six in a country where we talk about childhood obesity all the time without actually knowing how you talk about childhood obesity? To the people who are affected. Don't put them on a diet. Do you weigh them? Do you do you encourage them to be healthier without mentioning weight?

There's some interesting viral clips on TikTok, um, or whatever it is. What do I get on my Facebook? Is it reels? So I'm not really on TikTok. I uh obviously L B C is on TikTok and and um Well I'm on TikTok, but I'm not on TikTok if you see what I mean. One day I'll tell you who I met and the first thing that they said to me was, Oh, I love your clips on TikTok. I'll tell you one day, Hook am I allowed to ever tell you who that was? I don't think I am.

Actually. Um you will not believe me. If you come to the gig with Gary Lineker next month and you get me after the show and you want you want the special insight and to the most unlikely person on the planet to say to somebody, Oh, I love your clips on TikTok, then I I shall tell you one on one. I'll do it for two people and two people only, given that you'll have already made a fairly hefty donation to Globals make some noise.

Um uh y but how how have we ended up in a place where we don't know how to have a conversation about something that we have a conversation about all the time? Tracy's in Radlitt. Tracy, what would you like to say? Oh hi there, James. Oh my goodness. Um right. So I do do a a workshop for parents to try and help them with the CCU. And you're right, it's there are no easy answers, are there? I think there was one I think there was one place in Amsterdam that actually managed

to reduce obesity in children. And it was it was such a multifaceted thing that they did. They they did so many different things. mostly education, very strict in schools, encouraged cultural cooking and all kinds of things like that. Um, but going back to your doctors, um, I think part of the problem is They're not that knowledgeable about these kind of things. They don't have the time. They don't want to upset the parents.

Um and as you said, BMI is not a very good measure and it is a very tricky subject to bring in. So what I suggest is you make it make your waist half your height. It's like an easy one to work out. Because it's the fat round the tummy that is the problem. These are all the health risks. It's not actually your weight. And what what the your previous callers have pointed out is everyone's got a set point. So we're not all designed to be the same way.

And yet social media can already make people, children as young as five, already worried about their weight when they were never gonna be, um, what you're supposed to be. Is is there a typical child who comes to your classes? Is that do you do them for children? I d uh What I do is I go into I go into schools because I actually think So you're addressing everybody. You're addressing the whole class. They haven't just

Good Lord, I don't know quite how I'd phrase this, but they haven't just filtered the children so that the ones with the issue come into'cause that would be as bad as No, not not at all. And I d and I'm doing one on eating disorders as well. Right. Because as you said, it's so what's so tricky for parents is If they try and push the child in one direction, are they gonna trigger an eating disorder? Exactly what your last caller was was saying.

So you do have to be incredibly sensitive and I don't think doctors are actually geared for that. Well clearly not. But maybe teachers I mean, this is from Susan, your talk around childhood obesity. My grandson's school had uh had a weigh in recently. And children were told in front of the class whether they were an acceptable weight or or overweight or obese.

We used to do it very discreetly. And I as I said, I've got so many issues with BMI as as you No, I understand that. And you also understand that I I've closed down that avenue of conversation at the outset of this'cause it'cause it got I mean it's pertinent but it's not necessarily it's not the the If you pardon the pun, it's not the meat and drink of what we're actually talking about this hour. So nobody except people who are categorically and and completely wrong.

Nobody and and and of course this being the country that we live in at the moment, incredibly confident in their wrongness. Nobody knows how to address this really. If you've got a parent in front of you with an obese child and you need to draw attention to the child's obesity Your your your best answer, and it's probably the best we're gonna get, is is an equation comparing waist to to height, but that is just a euphemism for obese.

We have to understand that these ultra processed foods they they bypass that feeling of fullness. So and they are addicted. So if we as parents are each them and then our children are eaching them, they're very hard to say no to. So what we have to try and do is encourage more of the healthy good things. And that's a that's a public health issue. That's something that we just do for everybody. And we don't single out we don't single out the people with the quotes problem end quotes, a because

It's not got anything to do with them necessarily behaving differently from the people who haven't got the quotes problem end quotes. Um and B there is a huge benefit to the whole of society. mewn gwirionedd yn ymwneud â unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw uh consume or hugely increasing the amount of education we have about the dangers of ultra processed food.

Uh, which, as with so many of the problems that this country faces, takes us back to Tufton Street and all these secretly funded lobby groups masquerading as think tanks that are dedicated to promoting and protecting the interests of the people and the businesses that make huge amounts of money out of making our children obese and unhealthy. And us of course, and adults.

Um but apparently it I don't know, it's free speech or something if you start demanding that they tell you who funds them. In fact, if I were to tell you who was in court recently, trying to prevent you and I from knowing

uh actually funds their operation, you wouldn't believe me. What would be the most ironic and ridiculous organisation that pops up in Um the UK media with the same sort of unerring regularity that you see um all sorts of shysters and charlatans claiming to be lobby groups so I beg your pardon, claiming to be think tanks when they are in fact lobby groups.

And I said to you, Well, you know, uh what would be the single most ridiculous organisation that was desperate to prevent you from finding out who funded them? What organisation would you say? Um uh remind me to tell you before I go home, it is eleven forty seven.

It is ten minutes to twelve and you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Um I I was flicking through the T V channels last night and um I stumbled onto one life, which which you may have seen in which Anthony Hopkins plays Nicholas Winton, if you don't automatically recognise the name, you'll recognise the story. Nicholas Winton was the man who masterminded and orchestrated the escape.

from the Nazis of about six thousand children I think in total. And when I was a kid i th they did it on T V. I m maybe not quite a kid, but they did it on That's Life, a programme that was presented by Esther Ranson.

and and ambushed him in the studio with the um adults that the children he'd helped rescue had become. And and it struck me that the the power of a story a really incredible story reaches parts that textbooks and even historians cannot reach, um and a appropriately, because as you know today is Holocaust Memorial Day. I'm gonna draw your attention next to a a truly extraordinary story, and it's one that I was not previously

Aware of. Rabbi Naftali Schiff is a globally renowned collater of the testimonies of Holocaust survivors and and a documentary. filmmaker and has written along with Michael Calvin, Miracle, The Boys Who Escaped the Gas Chamber in Auschwitz and and Natalie joins me now. Um, was was this story known or is it something that you unearthed in in your researches, Afterli?

Uh good morning, James. Um it it it's a story that that was known amongst uh uh people had heard of it, um um historians had heard of it, but nobody had actually interviewed uh a number of of these saved uh, teenagers. Um fifty one in total at the time. T tell us exactly what happened to them, if you would. Uh well, on on the day of Simchatora, which is the same uh English date as October the seventh, nineteen forty four, uh a few hundred Hungarian teenage boys were rounded up.

and taken to the gas chambers and ordered to undress and literally were ordered into the gas chamber uh and the door was closed. And at the last moment there was a commotion. and there was a selection as there as there was quite often an outridge who will live, who will die by the infamous uh Doctor Mengela. the SS uh um uh command subcom commandant of the camp and fifty boys actually were chosen

uh and another boy managed to sort of escape uh out of the gas chambers with them. They were told to get dressed and they were sent back to the barracks. And uh over the the course of the last twenty years I had the privilege of meeting six of them. Uh and all of them had incredibly lucid memories. Remarkable people. Because after they were r removed to I think unload a consignment of potatoes if I if I've understood the

story correctly that had just arrived from Greece. That the the the the timing was such that they never faced that peril again or I mean who how did they how c how come it wasn't just a temporary reprieve rather than a permanent freedom?

Right, that's the good because but the answer is that that uh the i i i the war was was nearing the end. And quite soon after that they they stopped using the gas chambers. And today actually Holocaust Memorial Day, uh January the twelfth the twenty seventh, is just ten days after the beginning of what became known as the infamous Death March from Auschwitz, which began on the seventeenth of January and

And these boys, those who survived, w were uh after that reprieve they they were then forced to march in some cases hundreds of miles back to to Germany in pajamas, freezing cold. W will you forgive me if this is a stupid question? But of of the six survivors who you've c spent a lot of time with, what what did they most have in common as a consequence of this shared experience? Typifies their future lives that you would trace back in all six cases to this

Um to this moment? Stubborn, stubborn the will to live. Stubborn, strong people with with wi you know, with w with a will of steel and and a positive, optimistic view on life. Uh and I and I'll I'll add, you know, I've I've interviewed apart from that I've interviewed tens of people who were on the this death march that that took place uh the ten days before January the twenty seventh. And I've asked them how did you keep going? And all of them, all of them remarkably gave the same answer.

one step at a time. Which I think is a very important message. It it's it's not about winning, it's just about keep going, keep going. And I think this is one of the remarkable legacies of of these survivors. uh something that that our younger generation would do well to to learn. That that it's not about uh instant victory. It's about uh c consistency and and and really believing and hoping and and working for a f to build a better world.

And I would say the other thing that they all had in common is that's exactly what they did. They weren't people who lived lives of vengeance. They they were pe they were people who live literally lived lives of of joy and and building, rebuilding

uh helping contributing to s to society in a remarkable way. I I I mean that's wonderful to hear. And and again I'd sort of hesitate to ask this question, but I think that I should. Survivor's guilt is a well established psychological phenomenon, isn't it?

young enough to be unaffected by it or is it something that that that some of them have wrestled with in the You know, i w within the Jewish community, uh people do refer to to a surviving skill, they refer to uh Hitler, ev even the the people who survived

uh there's second generation, there's third generation uh uh trauma. But but th this car drew people and it could be because they they were the the toughest because uh any any survivor with an adult memory today is is well into the well into the nineties. Uh they they the I think in a way th the on the contrary. They were people driven with by a love of life, uh a a a first to to to to really uh to enjoy life and and and teach goodness to their children, their grandchildren.

Th these six alone between them have a something like a thousand descendants. Uh it was actually the w uh the wedding of a grandchild of of one of them. who's still alive and and he was the happiest guy in the room. I think you've answered my final question probably, um, which is about the the the point you raise about the age of the survivors.

The theme of of Holocaust Memorial Day today is as as you know Naptali is bridging generations. It's a it's a a recognition, isn't it, of the fact that it's going to be children and and grandchildren and great grandchildren that that carry on these stories. Through the general. Hopefully all of us will will will carry on these stories. Uh and I and I would say in the the reason why I have I have done this is is because I think th I think this is a universal

uh point. You know, there there there are all sorts of tragedies, uh terrible things going on in the world and the there have been all you know, ter terrible, terrible man's inhumanity to man. And I think that that the Holocaust is is just maybe the the defining symbol of man's in humanity to man and in a in a in a world of of m more and more virtual reality and uh and AI and and fake news

I think the authenticity of survivors is really uh their most powerful feature and that's something that we somehow need to to bring to our younger generation. That they know the difference between uh goodness and evil. between selfishness and and and and selflessness. between giving and just and just taking. And and looking into the eyes of of these survivors

uh through through the words of of of book of the book, uh Miracle, uh which one can can get on on Amazon. I was gonna do that bit, Neftalie don't worry. You can do it too. So we've actually also made it made a documentary which really embellishes it more. And uh and I th I really think authenticity is is uh the thing that sums up these survivors for me.

Indeed it is. And um as Naptali mentioned, Miracle is out now, published last week. The Boys Who Escaped the Gas Chamber in Auschwitz, published by Bantam. And you can find out more about the documentary film online. Rabbi Naptali Schiff, many thanks. to you on um uh w what as we just established is Holocaust Memorial Day and a Memorial Day with a theme, uh a theme of bridging generations, which actually makes me think

Uh you won't if you're a regular listener to the programme be surprised to learn. It m makes me think of my friend Lily Pullman, who um uh well, introduced me to her story which was uh uh every bit as extraordinary as some of the better known accounts of surviving the Holocaust and which I think we shall probably return to for a moment or two in the next hour of the programme. But the time now is just approaching twelve noon. You are listening to James O'Brien

on LBC. It is three minutes after twelve and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC, where I mean you can almost tell what category you fall into, depending on how you pronounce the word I'm about to say. I have always said class. I went to a school which possibly is the only place in the Catholic church that says Mass instead of Mass. Like for going to church.

That's how post my school I know, absolutely ridiculous. Mars. I've told you the story of the task, haven't I, at my prep school. Remember my mum's from Sheffield and my dad's from Leeds, so when they sent me to these schools They were introducing me to a world that they hadn't inhabited themselves. I didn't fully understand that at the time, but I understand it now. A headmaster's wife invited my dad.

um th to to have a sort of coffee after he dropped me off one day and and he's sitting in the kitchen and she says, Would you like some tass? And my dad being a very good journalist who often found himself in found himself in unfamiliar situations.

um, had no idea what she was talking about, but had a tactic for coping with situations in which he had no idea w whatever the person was talking about. I don't know if you ever do. If you go to someone's house and they say, Would you have a drink? What would you like to drink? and you don't know what to say. So you say, Well I'll have whatever you're having. So Dad just said, Oh, I'll have some if you are and then she gave him a slice of toast.

That's how this person pronounced toast Tast. Would you like some Tast? That's not really relevant to what we're talking about, but it is, I suppose, pertinent to the question of whether you say class or class, let alone bath or bath or class or class. But these aren't necessarily class. Points, are they? They can be geographical. Although one thing I did notice about posh people is that they're posh wherever they grew up. Yeah with the possible exception of of Edinburgh entry.

who have a sort of Edinburgh poshness. But even Welsh posh people sound like English posh. They all sound posh. Posh people who grew up in Carnarvon sound like posh people who grew up in Surrey. Posh people's accents are somehow...

Uh a geography proof. I don't know why. But I do know this. Talented white working class pupils lose ground at secondary school compared with black and Asian peers. This is important. Um, disadvantaged white pupils fall furthest behind as they progress through secondary school. So so that means that the poorer the background the worse the performance at GCSC and A level. And it kicks in even more when it comes to applying to selective universities.

Disadvantaged Asian pupils and disadvantaged black girls often surpassed their white peers, getting substantially higher G C S E and A level grades. Um Asian and black pupils from poorer backgrounds were forty to sixty percent more likely than disadvantaged white boys to progress to Russell's group institution. Um you know how my mind worked. Don't you? Is there there's part of me that that wonders whether this is helpful. But I know where that comes from.

I know where that comes from. When I started in this job, I think the statistics were the other way round. And I think that it was demonstrable via the research that black kids, particularly black boys, did worse in school than everybody else. And I'm not going to mention any names. But there would be radio phone ins dedicated to explaining how it was all the parents' fault. And it was to do with uh the prevalence of single motherhood among the uh among the b uh black community in Britain.

And people would use words like baby mama. or baby mother t to explain why black children were doing worse than other children in British schools was a consequence not of anything going on in the schools, but of everything going on at home. And I I remember thinking at the time that that's that's racist, isn't it? I mean it is not as a consequence of their blackness that they're doing worse in school, as a consequence of different treatment.

Some of which might be at home, but most of which is going to be institutional. And then in the ensuing twenty years we've heard about how

black kids were treated in school in the in the seventies and the eighties and the nineties and we've made in i enormous progress. I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest to you that none of the people who were adamant twenty or thirty years ago that black boys did badly in school because their parents were irresponsible or absent or feckless are going to suggest today that white working class boys are doing badly in school because their parents are absent or or work shy or feckless.

Ond mae'n ddysgu'n ddysgu'n ei ddysgu'n ei ddysgu'n ei ddysgu'n ei ddysgu'n ei ddysgu'n ei ddysgu'n ei ddysgu'n ei ddysgu. Um I know that m I mean. Most, if not all, of my black friends will tell me that when they were being brought up they were always told they had to be twice as good as everybody else because of the discrimination. and the racism that they would face.

But the injection of aspiration, uh Carla is brilliant on this. Um, if you've if you've not read his book Natives, I really can't recommend it highly enough. a aspiration is injected from both without and within. It happens in a family, but all of the instruction to aspire that a family can inculcate in a child disappears if the school isn't joining in. So what you have here is schools that encourage people to aspire. Now more or less equally. We've got rid of institutional racism in schools.

And you're left with this horrible problem of white working class children being the ones least likely to thrive in school.

And if the answer to that question is not aspiration at home, then I don't know what it is. Because there's nothing happening in classrooms that would constitute discrimination based upon skin colour, otherwise middle class white children would be suffering similarly. So what is the difference between the middle class white family and the working class white family when it comes to schooling? Answer I think the importance placed on education.

What is the difference between the working class white family and the working class Asian family? Answer The importance placed on education. What is the difference between black girls, um, who are performing similarly at the age of eleven to white girls from a disadvantaged background? They're both from disadvantaged backgrounds, that explains why the black girls will do better than the white girls. Answer.

The emphasis being placed on education at home. There's no other answer to this question. And i I mean it's a very uncomfortable conclusion to arrive at, but the more you think about it The more obvious it is because the difference is about the difference between the middle class white family and the working class white family and the emphasis that those families place on education. Do you know who I really get cross with at moments like this?

It's the commentators and the column Oh that reminds me, is there a Dick Little John column in the Daily Mail today? I can't wait to see what he's had to say about um uh uh the the fascism on the streets of America, uh being presided over by his hero, Donald Trump and all the people in his administration, lying through their teeth about the cold blooded murder.

of uh of Alex Pretti. I d I don't know what day is it? Monday. I'll check. I hope there is,'cause it's great fun finding out what he has to say about Tuesday, Tuesday, Tuesday about his Hero Donald Trump, who he would much rather have in power than any British any um democratically elected British Prime Minister, so no doubt there's some fat slices of humble pie being eaten in the Daily Mail today after Donald Trump

um uh uh uh uh his administration lied through their teeth about a a man who dedicated his professional life to looking after military veterans. Oh, we'll have lots to say about that, I'm sure. We'll find out shortly. But the people I really hate in the context of this conversation are the people who turn working class parents against teachers.

Um, usually when they undertake industrial action, but also with all of the nonsense that we had in the eighties about political correctness and about so you turn a teacher into an enemy. What do you think your child is learning? Yeah. That school doesn't matter, that school isn't important, that teachers are not their friends, that teachers are enemies. And it's insane how obvious some of this stuff is. So the twenty years I've been doing this job.

The education institutions have addressed and I'm sure they haven't got rid of it entirely, but they have addressed racism in schools to such a degree that there is no longer an innate race racial disadvantage for black children. And that means that the uh there's a there's an equality of opportunity in school.

Which means that the falling behind of white disadvantaged pupils is a direct consequence of what they are taking into school rather than what they are finding there. And what they are taking into school is A lack of reverence for education and a lack of respect for teachers. I hate this. I hate the fact that it's so obviously correct. I hate the fact that it is so inarguably and demonstrably true. Uh but I love the fact that if you're a victim of what I've been describing, if you were

um uh persuaded by the racist rhetoric of twenty years ago about black boys doing badly in school, or if you are um uh enjoying the resurgent of racism that's underway now. I love the fact that you can't pick a hole in this argument because you know it's you that I'm talking about. yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n Or pride being celebrated in school.

or um people being uh children being asked to come to school to celebrate multiculturalism by wearing the national dress of their parents' native country and you turning up in a I don't know a union jack top hat. Your kid turning up in a Union Jack top hat and and somehow claiming that they've been discriminated against when the teacher points out that that's not actually our national costume. They should have gone as a Morris dancer.

So what is it like? To grow up in a home. Where the adults don't value education. This is a really important question. It doesn't matter what colour you are, what ethnicity you are, what background you are, or anything like that. But I of all the things I have no clue about. And that I learned about from you.

This is well, it's two things. Number one, it's a bit like the conversation in the last hour, extraordinarily given the amount of energy we've dedicated to these areas during our time together. I've never asked you this question before. I've never asked you this question before. And number two, I I cannot be more ignorant about a subject than I am about this one. I I I mean, what is it like to grow up in a house with no books? What is it like to grow up?

in a house where mum and dad or or dad or mum d or your carers do not value education. Do not pay any attention to how you're getting on at school. Do not care. about what you're doing at school. What is it like to grow up in a house that's even worse? Where people are taking their attitudes towards the education system from social media or right wing newspapers and encouraging their children to hold contempt for their teachers, to hold contempt for education.

There's two areas. It ties in with the last hour where it boils my blood that they've managed to conflate middle class. with the issue, as if it's somehow middle class. to want your children to read books, or it's middle class to want your children to eat healthily, and it's working class to be obese and uneducated. It's such a dangerous, disgusting, damning And damaging practice and process, but it happens all around us. It happens all the time. You can think of examples of it now.

But what is it like? I haven't got a clue what it would be like. Um, almost by definition, this is a question being asked to a self selecting audience. So if you are listening to this program You and and you grew up in a house like that, then you have somehow broken the spell of What you could almost call parental imposed ignorance. You you've you've to some degree managed to discover for yourself the importance of education.

Otherwise you'd be watching G Bee Bees. You wouldn't be listening to LBC. And I want to know how you did that as well. So I cannot for a minute and don't forget this isn't just about class, because there were kids at my school who were very very posh and very very rich, who never saw their parents, whose parents took absolutely zero interest in their education.

I I'm I'm not kidding. I'm paying tens of thousands a year to send them to school and there's a certain type of parent that thinks well that's it, that's my responsibility mech It's not my job to worry about what exam grades you get. If you don't get good A levels, I'll sue them for all the money that I've spent on school. They they existed. But the kids couldn't bring that into school'cause they were boarding schools and the culture meant that you you that that got left at the door.

The teachers were in loco parentis in those moments. So it's not purely a class based issue. But I have absolutely no idea. It's a bit like asking me what it would be like to grow up in a house where there was no love. I haven't got a clue what that would be like and what it would do to you. But to grow up in a house where education was not valued. What was that like now that you're old enough to look back and make comparisons with what you know

the experiences of other people have. Do you know, of all the questions that pop up on Full Disclosure, the long-form interview podcast series that I do with various prominent people, famous people. Of all the questions that pop up on that one, the one that pops up possibly the most is were there a lot of books in your house when you were growing up? It just explains so much about horizons and expectations and aspirations.

Um but I have absolutely no idea what it would be like to grow up in a house where education was not valued. So I need you to tell me. Um and this is the kind of question that I think falls very much into the category of, oh, I can't believe he's talking about me, but I never ring radio stations. There won't be that many people who can answer this, I don't think.

Um which means I really want you to. O three four five six zero six oh nine seven three is the number that you need. What does it do to you? To be growing up in a house where books or education are not valued, probably because of what is loosely described as class. Yeah, parents persuaded that it doesn't matter or that

schools are woke or that education is um for for the birds or that it's a bit I don't know effeminate for boys to read books. I mean what is it like to grow up in that kind of environment and how did you How did you get out of it? O three four five six zero six oh nine seven three is the uh is the number that you need. Um hit the numbers now you will get through. I I I suppose we could look at the the the the ethnic question as well, but I honestly I don't think that it's that relevant.

Rydyn ni'n gwneud rhywbeth gyda'r etniciaeth, mae'r ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud. So the poverty of aspiration goes hand in hand with the poverty of means, and I have no idea what it would be like to grow up like that. Um it's twelve nineteen.

MATILDA But why didn't I think of Matilda? That's that's basically I just described the character in Roll Doll's Matilda, didn't I? I just described in fact, um Doctor Helen says, I wish I could get through. My nickname from my friends is Matilda. Clear a phone line for Doctor Helen. But that that is Matilda is the story of a little girl

Uh with an incredible brain, with uh epic intelligence, who grows up in a family. I don't know why it's not fair on Rolf Dahl, but it's a mark of what a brilliant performance it was from Danny DeVito. I've got Danny DeVito in my head now. As the obnoxious father, the parents who are absolutely re reveling in their own pig ignorance. Um, what's it like to grow up in that kind of house?

Uh albeit there won't be a sort of comical element to it as there is in in in Roll Doll. Some breaking news for you. I I'm not fully au fae with French politics, uh uh in insofar as knowing exactly what this means, but I can tell you that French MPs have just approved a bill banning social media for children under fifteen, which I think means that um

that it could be enforced at the start of the next school year. This whole idea gaining momentum across Europe and it's something that we haven't talked about for at least a fortnight, so we'll probably return to this territory tomorrow. A hundred and thirty votes to twenty one. to ban the use of mobile phones in high schools and ban social media. Do you know, I it just before I go to Tina in Bex Hill.

It took me a moment to understand why why all those liars in Donald Trump's administration kept talking about free speech in this country. Oh, by the way, the organization that went to court to stop you finding out who funds them? The one that would be the most ironic imaginable in that context? Yeah, you're right. It was the Free Speech Union. He um

I couldn't work out why they were telling so many lies about free speech in this kind of why Elon Musk and J D Vance and the rest of them, J D Vance very much in the pocket of a billionaire called Peter Thiel or Peter Thiel. They're terrified of this kind of legislation'cause it's money. The richest men in the world are the uh are probably still the greediest men in the world.

Decent legislation that limits children's access to social media will hit them where it hurts the most, in the already overstuffed pocket. So all of those lies, some of which of course are amplified and disseminated by UK politicians like Farage and Lady Haha, who's running for mayor in London, the um

The truth of the matter is this is what they're most frightened of, actually having some meaningful legislation that limits the harm and the damage that they can do to our children. Which has an enormous parallel with the conversation we had in the last hour about obesity. But in this hour we're talking about education and a poverty of aspiration in the home, what that translates to in the classroom. Tina is in Bexhill. Tina, what would you like to say?

Hello, um, so, actually, I just want to agree with you about what you just said about, um, the social media. I think it's fantastic. It all needs to be banned. Um, So I grew up in a home, so I grew up in a council state. My mum didn't work. I ever since I left school I have tried to educate myself as much as possible. Um, I think because I would just want my children to know about the world and feel educated. Um, being at school because my mum wasn't

pushy I think. I c I just couldn't be bothered when I was at school. I was I just thought, what's the point in this? What am I going to do with this? I just left Well how h how does a child arrive at the understanding of the importance of it if it's not being taught to them at home? Yeah, I agree. Like m there wasn't anything at home that would that could like follow on from school or continue with education. Um

I I've got three children and um I'm I'm not pushy but I do There's nothing wrong with being a bit pushy. There's nothing wrong with being a bit pushy. But I I like them to know about uh you know, what's going on in the world and how you just all sorts of subjects. When did it click? When did it click, Tina? Can you remember? I d I I don't imagine there was a single moment, but when did you sort of clock the fact that

You'd been a little bit I mean, they loved you, I hope, and I'm sure your mum and your dad, but you'd been a little bit let down on this front. When did you sort of clot? Well, I tell ya, I was I was um I was pregnant at seventeen. It's a cliche, I guess. Um, I had I had my daughter and then um when she was old enough that I could go to college I just thought to myself, I don't want this to be a repeat. I want to

um, you know, this my generation, my next gen d the next generation, I w I we can do better than this. And I want to know more and I want my children to know more. and um I guess the thought of not knowing any you know, just being a bit ignorant I think. Yeah. I think you know I try to listen to programmes like this as well because I drive I drive I drive around from work'cause I work as a support worker so I'm like always in my car and I'm constantly I've got L B C on all the time and I'm like

It it's just that it is edu it's more education. Just absorbing stuff. Yeah. I am like a sponge now. There's no downside to it. How how do you think And I mean what I said about pushiness. There's a I d uh you've heard the phrase that the s is it well, is it the squeaky wheel gets the most oil? So how how do you how are you impressing upon your children the importance of education in a way that it wasn't impressed on you?

Well my eldest daughter's just finished um a degree in criminology and sociology. Well done. That's great, isn't it? Yeah. My my my middle child, she's like top of the class and everything, but I think

I think sh some children are naturally born, but like you said, Matilda, they're just like Yes, of course. Yeah. This is what my li my middle child's like. And and my and my youngest he He struggles a bit more, but we sit down and I go through homework with him and we try and kind of solve it together.

Um you're just there for them. You're there for all of them. Yeah, exactly, yeah. And I think that's it. It's just not I don't I went I I don't know I don't like to use the word pushy, but I just I generally think that Um, just that bit of encouragement because you do find subject tasks daunting or you think you can't do something and you can, if you if you put your mind to it, you can do it. So

It's just And that's it. And and who knows where it comes from? That little moment of of of of understanding that door. I love what you say about knowledge though. I just want to know stuff. I I mean a crikey, I don't think that ever leaves you, actually. I just wanna know stuff. I wanna know more stuff. And the more you know, then possibly the more you understand, but even if you don't understand the consolation of knowing.

Can be very comforting as well, Tina. That's a love uh perfect story. Thank you. I I really appreciate you giving me a ring on that. Twenty eight minutes after ten, this is from Wendy. We had no books at home. When I was about seven I wandered into the local library And a kind member of staff signed me up. Uh later I got into grammar school and those two things enabled me to be the first member of my family to go to university, libraries.

Something else that um uh the Tories took away from many communities during yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n stems from the idea that the um global financial crisis in two thousand and eight was caused up by there being too many libraries in Wolverhampton. Um and I am from one of those houses, writes Owen, in Liverpool. My mum didn't really care about my education.

She pushed my older brother and younger sister hard, but not me. Um they're now a head chef and a teacher, and I drive a van. I must have never been worth it. Oh, and that's a terrible thing to write. And and you obviously are worth it. And i just because one person couldn't see your potential doesn't mean

that other people wouldn't and it certainly doesn't mean that there wasn't any. And leaving aside the fact that, goodness me, um absolutely nothing wrong with driving a van, but but you can't you can't start feeling better about things like that until you st until you start being a bit kinder to yourself.

And what Owen's done there is gives an insight into the deep damage that taking away aspiration, particularly if you can compare yourself to other people who are being encouraged to have aspiration. the deep damage that taking away aspiration can do. It's coming up to half past twelve, Dominic Ellis has your headline.

James, I was mocked by my parents for always having quotes my head in a book and told you can't learn everything from books. I was lucky because learning came naturally to me, writes Lee. I remember having to pay for my own travel to visit universities for interviews, and as I grew older I realized my situation amongst my peers, my professional peers, was unique. That made me feel prouder of my achievements. I think it should do, Lee.

but also um unwilling to share my success with my parents. I oh that's a shame as well, isn't it? There's a lot going on here. William writes Um it's Danny DeVito for for me too. But don't discount Stephen Graham. He is as good as any actor out there and he was in the proper British version. You're absolutely right, he was and he was brilliant. But for me

fashion and form. Twelve thirty three is the time. Sheila and Helen up next. I think it's Dr. Helen actually in Preston who describes herself as Matilda. But before that, as promised, it is um time to see what

Dick Little John has been writing about in the Daily Mail because he must have turned his attention surely to the murder of Alex Pretti by um in fact here is the first line of the column in the Daily Mail today. They told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears, wrote George Orwell in his dystopian novel nineteen eighty four, about a world carved up into dictatorships. It was their final most essential command, and the headline reads In Trump's America, they murder nurses and poets.

column is by Andrew Neal, who is somewhat belatedly rediscovering the brilliance that marked him out as one of the finest journalists of his generation before his brain got boiled by Brexit. And it's a brilliant piece. And it's something that every columnist, especially ones who have been cheerleading for Donald Trump,

um through some of the worst excesses prior to the murder of Alex Pretti should be turning their attention to. Which brings us to Dick Littlejohn and what he has to say about the cold blooded murder of an ICU nurse who dedicated his life to looking after the military. Let's have a look. Alright. Starmer's no friend of the military, no wonder veterans are flocking to reform.

It's a very strange way to respond to the murder by your political hero Donald Trump, who you would rather have running Britain than the democratically elected British Prime Minister. Um Uh uh presiding over a country where a a nurse who looks after military veterans can be murdered in cold blood and then lied about by his most senior appointees. How how can you not turn your attention to that?

Um well let's have a look at that story. Better late than never, writes Dick Littlejohn in the Daily Mail, Donald Trump has recanted his offensive remarks about the contribution of British troops in Iran and Afghanistan. Um and then the headline as we said was Starmer's no friend of the military, no wonder veterans are flocking to reform. So let's just refresh our memories on what Sir Keir Starmer had to say about that disgusting denigration of British war dead um at the end of last week.

I consider President Trump's remarks to be insulting and frankly appalling. To the loved ones of those who were killed or injured. Um and let's remind ourselves what the Veterans Minister Al-Khanz had to say on X on on the same day. On Afghanistan, frankly, this is utterly ridiculous. Many courageous and honourable service personnel from many nations fought on the front line. Many fought way beyond it. Um Camille Badenot, leader of the Conservative Party.

It is complete nonsense. I spoke to parents of young men who had lost their lives in Afghanistan. And I think it is a disgrace to denigrate their memory like that. And I think that there is too much careless talk uh from President Trump. Uh he clearly doesn't know the history of what happened. And now the man that Dick Littlejohn considers to be the great champion of the British military, Nigel Farage. It's not quite fair. Oh, that's tough, isn't it?

That's really tough. Uh twelve thirty seven is the time. It's extraordinary what an absence of education can do to a person, but when it's been inflicted upon their pair by them by their parents, it seems peculiarly unfair. What is it like to grow up? in such circumstances. Sheila is in High Wickham. Sheila, what made you pick up the phone? Hi James, nice to meet you. Well we've met before, Sheila. You meet me every time you turn your radio on, but it's nice for me to meet you, you see.

Yeah, we've spoken before. But not about this. And I don't often hear anyone speaking about this either. Um, I grew up in a house with two siblings with no books and really poorly educated parents. which I think people who know me today may f find surprising'cause I've done the complete opposite and so has my sister.

Um, there wasn't I mean my parents wouldn't have known anything that we were doing in school either. It was just non existent. They were perhaps nothing beyond a primary education themselves. This isn't sort of a small rural Canada. But that's what they kind of expected for us as well. Like it you know, uh that we would just it was not expected that we would go on to further education. It was just you're going to get a job and

kinda live kinda hand to mouth, I think like most people in our community are. That's just your lot in life. When did you realise that that that you didn't want that to be your lot in life? Well, I had a really amazing teacher and it always usually comes down to an amazing teacher, but yeah, I had a grade six teacher, Mr. McGraw and he gave me my first book. I mean he was a really passionate

educated man. He brought his own lectern into high school, um, which is insane, really at the time,'cause no teacher did he come in on public transport? Yes. Just a rural sort of Canadian school, but he insisted that was the vibe he was going for. And he gifted me my very first book, which I take with me everywhere I move. I obviously now live in Canada or um in England so um

And you'll be when I tell everyone what the first book was, they're shocked. Um the very first book I was ever gifted by my teacher was The Brothers Karamazov. Wow. Yeah, and you started at the deep end then. Yeah, and he but he inspired me. He he challenged me as well. He wasn't easy on me and he said to me, you know, it's up to you if you want to go for this, if you want to actually show people that you're more than this.

And honestly, years later, after I'd lived in England for so many years, I happened to run into him and he was quite elderly and didn't live much longer after that. And I was so I'm getting emotional talking about it. I was so happy to um tell him that I had made it. that I had got out of there and that I went on and I'm currently finishing my degree now with three kids at home but I never stopped

believing that I I could have that. Even though I came from a poor household, that I could have that too. And and what you're reminding us of is that the power of education, even when it's not a passport to yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n

It goes often hand in hand. You you can reach stages in life that you couldn't reach without the education, but the education as an end in itself is so undervalued by so many people from all sorts of backgrounds, even people who encourage their children to get educated. Yeah, and exactly. I I saw my sister, my older sister as well, um, was a big inspiration. Like she went to

Um, art school and I remember that being really denigrated in sort of working class community as well, because not only were you going to further education, but it was the arts. Like what the heck are you doing? What are you gonna do with that? And it kinda gave me I think more than just being a positive thing. I think I just became angry that I was given this lot in life.

And I was told I wasn't really allowed to get out of it. It's not for the likes of you. It's not for the inner life that you're describing as well as the outer life. The the richness, the increased richness of the inner life. that comes as a consequence of being introduced to things like Dostoevsky. Oh, you know, it doesn't have to be Dostoevsky. It's just something that you wouldn't ordinarily stumble across in a house where books weren't valued in education.

was not seen as something that um h was powerful in and of its own. ac yn ymwneud â'r unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw unrhyw

levels. This this from thank you, Sheila, this from Susan is absolutely heartbreaking. But then it just puts such a massive smile on my face at the end, Susan. This is one of my favourite texts of in a very long time. You also have a poet's way with words, if you don't mind me saying that. Get your head out of that book and do something useful. In quotes. I'm seventy seven, and that still resonates.

Meanwhile, my granddaughter's copy of Matilda has fallen apart, and she always has three books on the go, one of which is read to her by her mum. That is what I think they call breaking the cycle.

Isn't it? That's what Sheila was describing as well. Breaking the cycle. Helen is in Preston. We found a line for you, Helen, whose friends call you Matilda. What what well we know what made you pick up the phone. What would you like to say? Well, w when you were you were um described and I was like, Oh my goodness for me, that's me and that's Matilda.

Um so I I grew up in a very deprived working class background. My parents, you know, left school when they were young. They didn't not at all scholastic, but I was a dustbin man and Um I I think from a very young age kind of always felt a little bit different and then when I started at primary school um I realised this world of books. I had not been read to as a child, before school, because I had no books in the house whatsoever. My parents loved the television.

Um and but another nod. Absolutely. And I got to school and I was like, Oh my goodness, me to have books and I just took off and then I just was reading, reading, reading, reading all like all the time and then I discovered when I was five and a half Probably five and a half. The mobile library. Oh yes. In the mobile library used to stop outside my primary school at half past three till five o'clock on a Wednesday and came at nine AM till one PM on a Saturday.

Now it was literally just at the bottom of my street where I lived. So from then on, that's where I would be found. On a Wednesday and a Saturday, I was in the mobile library and the the the lovely librarian found me a little spot And from the age of five and a half till nine I pretty much read that mobile library. Oh my days. Everything. Like the encyclopedias, everything. And

And my parents didn't understand me. They were really shocked. They they didn't mind because I was out of the hair, wasn't I, really, at the library. But they didn't understand and they just the thought, Why are you doing this? I don't we d we don't get you and then when I was um m eight, nearly nine, I realised Roy Darl was writing Matilda. That's how old I am. And um and so I got myself a little job peeling potatoes at the local um chippy. So I could afford to buy Matilda.

Rydyn ni'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw They just didn't understand. They just weren't much what to tell either. So they weren't unkind. Oh, they did get angry with you. There's a bit more than just ambivalence. Yeah,'cause they said to me, Look, wh why are you reading? You you can't learn from that. You know, you're just gonna leave school and get a job. So what what's going on?

So I would then pretend to watch the television with them and then when they would go to bed and then I'd say I was tired, go to bed about seven. And this is why I was at nine, ten. Then when my mum and dad would come to bed at half past nine, still don't know this. I hope you're not listening. Um and then when they'd come to bed'cause my dad had to be up at four AM, um they'd come to bed at half past nine, I'd sneak downstairs.

'Cause the only room in the house that had heat in was the front room. So I then sneak downstairs to study and I pretty much did that throughout my entire teens. So that I'm a absolute night owl. I do my best work at midnight. So between eleven AM eleven PM and one AM is when I do my best work and I'm all I've always been like that. Um and and they just didn't understand and So when you did your O level?

Yeah. GCSEs, yeah. Oh, you thought you were older. When you did your when you did your GCSEs, did who did you celebrate with? possibly the roughest school in Preston. Um and thankfully I met a little kindred spirit. I I will say that I had a kindred spirit at primary school as well. It hadn't been for Moxine.

my oldest friend who we just battled each other. You know, I've got I've got a thing I do sometimes with callers. Yeah. When I'm trying to cut them off or slow them down. And I say, let me uh no, no, let me finish. I say I'm gonna have to wait for your autobiography to find out what happens next. But with you I'm Yeah, my husband jokes about that. My husband jokes about writing my autobiography. You should. I'm all ears. I I'm here for it. I'll put you in touch with my publisher. Back to Roxane.

Roxene, she was also smart and from a poor background and we battled each other on for the SMP. No SMP was maths boxes and we were determined that we were going to get to the end of blue box before we finish primary school, before the the last uh Mr Greenwood's class, which is year six now. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud.

Rydyn ni'n gwybod fy GCSE, rydyn ni'n gwybod fy GCSE. Rydyn ni'n gwybod fy GCSE. Rydyn ni'n gwybod fy GCSE. Rydyn ni'n gwybod fy GCSE. And then um Did did mum and dad even not get that? They must have understood. They did. They did they did they did but they didn't really they didn't celebrate it with me. They thought I was now gonna leave school and get a job. Yes. So when I said no I want to do A levels'cause I wanna be a doctor

Rydyn ni'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd to pay pay board to my parents for when I was doing my A levels and p to pay to get to univers to to college. Um and then unfortunately because I had to work so hard

first time round I didn't get an A in chemistry. The first time ever I'd not got an A. So then I had to'cause I also did too many A levels. And then I had to resit chemistry to get to medical school. Right. Um but then I did medical school. I've I've succeeded really well. But I was also unfortunately I was also the fat, smart kid.

Which is never the best thing to be at high school in a good place. That goes back to all the conversations that won't be. And and you want And you're now a doctor. You're now a doctor.

I am, but the best thing, Matt, the thing that makes me smile every single day is yeah, I'm a very senior GP now. Um and I'm now also the lead for primary care at the medical school in Preston, which is a five minute walk from where I grew up And the actual medical school building is built on the old playing field of my old primary school. ا... ا... ا... ا... ا... ا... ا... ا... ا... ا... ا... ا... ا... ا... ا...

Well I go every time. My parents I think are now still don't understand me. But they must be proud in a Yeah, they must be in a kind of Slightly baffled way. But from the Matilda, the reason my friends call me Matilda is the first time we went to watch the stage show. And I was like, Yep, it's me. When I grow up. I mean it is a beautiful stage show as well, isn't it? It makes me cry. It makes me cry every time and I ha my life couldn't be more different from yours, so

Well there you go. So there it is. Hey, listen, your your husband's right. There's there's such a cracking book there, Helen. I'm not and and the title would be something along the lines of U you you can't be a doctor, you're a Dossman's daughter. Yeah. I'm trying to manage by the office. yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n

Five of us in my year who didn't have paid for education. So you can imagine it was it was interesting for me. Medical Yes, I'm sure it was, but my goodness me, you I don't even have words to describe how um I'm uh just how lovely. And you should see my inbox.

Seriously. Um how how's Roxene getting on? But my background makes me a much better doctor. I bet it does'cause you understand uh you can't be what you can't see and you know the backgrounds that some of these people are coming from. How's Roxanne getting on? Do we know? Roxine is amazing. Roxine is uh again ac mae'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio'n gweithio That is insane. This is one of my favourite calls ever.

But you know, you want a bit of help from someone who's been there. You probably don't need it. I'm sure you know loads of people with ki publishing connections and contacts. But but stay on the line. Get get the email address off um Off Eleanor and then um and then if you do want me to put you in touch with anybody, I'd be proud to help. Oh, thank you. All right. You too. It's ten to one.

Twelve fifty three is the time. I just heard the most inspirational call on LBC, says Terrence. I'm a few minutes behind, says Jane, but I'm grinning from ear to ear, listening to Helen. I'd love Love to read her story. That lady, writes Margaret, must write her book. I'm in tears listening to her recount her life. What wonderful memories. And this is my favourite call I've ever listened to, says Lauren on J O B. I could have listened to this story of aspiration and thirst for learning forever.

Skip the news, James, and get her back on. Well, always leave them wanting more, Lauren, I think, is uh is is fairly solid advice. But I meant what I said about the book. And I'll keep you posted if there are any movements in that in that space, although I think it's fair to say she sounds pretty busy. Um Steve is in Chancellor, in similar territory. Steve, what made you pick up the phone?

Hi James, so thank you for taking my call, cos I usually listen in the middle of the night and I've been listening to you a lot, day time, and I had to pick up the phone because... Rydyn ni'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd

Um, I was brought up uh and I'm trying not to get emotional. I was brought up by my grandparents after a a abusive relationship and it was it was clear from early on that that I was bright. But my grandfather and my uncle, my grandfather was a graster. He got off at five o'clock in the morning, he came back at seven o'clock at night, food was on the table. And I was to work.

Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. then after school putting them away and doing paper round and I would give him bo uh board and lodgings while I was still at school. No uh uh no I wanted to bec uh I decided at the age of fifteen I wanted to be a nurse or a paramedic. Heaven forbid. What uh what what are you? Some kind of I don't know if I could say the word, puffer?

So uh so you've said it now, I'm not sure really. I d I mean uh I d uh I d I think that is actually offensive and you've apologised and I I I I will apologise as well, but you are recounting an event from your own life and and a word that was used.

used in in in in in a in in in context. So apologies to anyone who's offended by that word. It certainly wasn't Steve's intention. No, no. And so so it was like it was like I wasn't I wasn't a man if I wanted to be in there. So let's say that I wasn't a man Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud.

And I I then became a full provider provider for my grandmother but I was still determined to and I went to college Uh uh uh I went to college and I struggled with the qualifications because I was Doing four jobs, full time caring for my grandmother. Flipping, eh, mate?

And you put in a shift. You don't I don't you need you're you're and I just I'm guess'cause I'm conscious of the time, so let me let let's nudge to where we are now, if I may, Steve. So so so now, after being homeless from the age of eighteen on the streets, I overcome addiction, mental health. I'm now married with a wife in a full time security industry, but I still fulfilled my dream because I'm a volunteer first responder. Fantastic. Bless you.

No, I d uh seriously, you're they're right. It is a story that deserves a wider telling and I would give you more room to tell it if I didn't want to also get this story on the board today because it is, as you know, Holocaust Memorial Day and it always makes me think

Rydyn ni'n ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r Um uh a tell the story of how she

um, avoided the Holocaust thanks to the kindness of strangers. But this is a little bit from from before that, when the full horror of what was on the horizon began to emerge. And I and I think this story's important because of what it tells you about people that you already know.

when the horror starts. We had a Ukrainian caretaker where we lived. who when the Russians first came, he became a militiamen, Ukrainian militiamen. When the Germans came he became a d German policeman. Policeman by that, all right? Yes. Okay, but he rather liked my father and used to come up and see this and that, like the radio, how do you do that? My father could do everything very well with his hands too, and so he was sort of friendly.

And then he kept coming and saying, you know I rather like your watch. And what do you say when somebody says I like your watch? You say thank you or something. I mean and then another time, I like your watch. And then the third time, my mother said, give him that watch. Yeah. It wasn't funny. Give him the watch because this is what he wants. And my father said, I don't see any reason why I should this was a present for you for my birthday from you, why should I give him the water?

Because, you know, women, I must say that women were smarter than men in those days. That's why I laughed. I'm telling you. Because men are straight, more straight women, you know. He did not give him the watch. And on one fine day, on the fifteenth of August nineteen forty two, he brought the Gestapo. And the Gestapo took them, my father and my little brother, age six. And we we we were not there, my mother and I. And they disappeared off the face of the earth.

My mother st went to him, I mean, she was so brave. She was so brave. I uh decided we were looking for them, looking for them, and so she went to him to ask him Do you know what happened? What happened here while we were not here? To the police. To the caretaker. And she opened the door and he was standing with a back to the door. And he was dark hair like my father, and about the same stature, wearing my father's silk shirt.

his flannel trousers, the watch on his hand and the radio is playing there. And it's a miracle that he didn't take her away also. Why why do you think he didn't? I don't know. Maybe he was so shocked. I don't know. It was a shock to her. She he turned around You can hear the entirety of that interview with the with the late Lily Pullman um on the full disclosure podcast series. That's it from me for today. Coming up at four on LBC, it's Tom Swabrick, but now it's time for Sheila.