A moment of unutterable horror from Donald Trump

Three minutes after ten is the time it's Friday already. I don't know how this week has unfolded for you, but goodness me, I now understand if I didn't already, and between you and me I I did, why the Chinese say may you live in interesting times as a curse. When I was a younger man, wet behind the ears, callow.

idealistic, um untainted by the cynicism of maturity. I y I used to think it was like a good luck thing. I used to think it was may you live in interesting times. Oh thanks, mate. Yeah, I'd love to live in interesting times. Nah. Nope, nope, nope, nope, no. Give me dull times. Give me sunshine give me

Uh uninteresting times, any any day of the week. And and what did I say to you yesterday? As if to prove the point that we would barely have finished ranting and raving about the absurdity of a board of peace. um populated by war criminals and genocide apologists. Um and then the next thing would come along that we were gonna get angry about, animated by, and we'd start talking about that as well. But you have to. I I I realise this. Uh y you absolutely have to. You can't stop. If you stop

it becomes even more normalized than it is already. In this country now, I I do know, I have resisted the urge. to um turn to our favourite unhinged columnist this morning. Um because I can't wait to see. I thought I'd do it live with you. We'll open up the Daily Mail and see what Dick Littlejohn has to say about Donald Trump essentially dancing on the graves of our war dead. Um because as his biggest cheerleader in the UK media, presumably this is the moment that he acknowledges

the gravity of his error. Because right wing colonists like nothing more, and indeed right wing broadcasters like nothing more than to trumpet their admiration for and support of our military. You know, it is it is the absolute gospel, truth. that they bow to nobody in their patriotic fervor for supporting our boys, particularly when there are some immigrants to moan about and you can pretend that you care about homeless veterans. So you know and I know that these people are so honest and and

um clear in their commitment to the military that I cannot wait to see what they have had to say about what Donald Trump did yesterday. But I should probably apologise first because you may not know.

And if you don't know, I'm sorry. I'm sorry because it's gross if you lost somebody. in Afghanistan particularly, but but any really um member of the military, uh, in your family or a friend, then you will find it even um more hideous than the rest of us do. But the reason why I apologise is because we're already breaking our rule. Um or are we? I don't know, because you can't not talk about

But we are part of the problem that we described yesterday. We're moving on to the next thing. Perfectly possible that they will too. This ludicrous board of peach You know what he's already done? He's already told Mark Carney, You can't be in it anyway.

So Mark Honey doesn't want to be in it. So Donald Trump has uh sent him a public message saying you can't be in it. I don't know how old you are, but when you were thirteen, you probably had a mate who got dumped and insisted that he'd actually done the dumping. Do you remember? She didn't dump me, I dumped her. That's that's the sort of behaviour you might expect from a thirteen year old boy.

The President of the United States is now doing exactly the same thing in the context of geopolitics, saying to somebody who has dumped him, You didn't dump me, I dumped you. So I mean it's beyond pathetic, but here we are. Here we are. Um Have a listen. That's this. For example, uh Article five of NATO has only been triggered once. It was triggered by the United States of America after the Twin Towers attack and it meant that their NATO allies joined them in Afghanistan.

Something we may talk about a little later. I don't fully understand the relationship that that the average member of our military has with our country's NATO commitments. It's something I I found myself thinking about this morning and being a little bit fascinated. in advance of of the things that you are going to tell me. Um i it's true, I think that we are the second um uh biggest

What would you say? Sacrifice? We made that British Military made the second biggest sacrifice during that twenty year deployment in Afghanistan, um UK troops second only to the United States in in making the ultimate sacrifice. yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw ac yn ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n ymwneud â phobl.

A twenty year period, two thousand military and civilian personnel were wounded. In addition to that, France, Germany and It Italy suffered deaths. But what I didn't know was that Denmark, which of course has found itself very much in uh Donald Trump sites this week. D Denmark was the biggest per capita contributor to this hideous death toll.

Um, in terms of the relationship between how many soldiers they lost and the overall total population of the country, Denmark was the highest per had the highest per head death toll among coalition forces in Afghanistan. And This is what Donald Trump had to say yesterday. But the problem with NATO is that we'll be there for them a hundred percent. But I'm not sure that they'd be there for us. If we gave them the call.

Gentlemen, we are being attacked. We're under attack by such and such a nation. I know them all very well. I'm not sure that they'd be there. I know we'd be there for them. I don't know that they'd be there for us. So with all of the money we expend, with all of the blood, sweat and tears, I don't know that they'd be there for us.

Um, spoiler alert, they were there. Um, it gets worse. There's one thing I heard you say yesterday and today. You are not absolutely sure that the Europeans would would come to the rescue of the US if you will be attacked. Let me tell you, they will. And they did in Afghanistan, as you know, for every

Amerika who paid the ultimate prize voor every two Americans who paid the ultimate price price there was one soldier from another NATO country who did not come back to his family. From the Netherlands, from Denmark particularly, from other counties.

So you can be assured absolutely if ever the US will be under attack, your allies will be with you. Absolutely, there's absolute guarantee. I really want to tell you this because this is important. It pains me if you think it is not. And under your lead. So a normal human being would realise that they'd been misinformed, right?

A normal human being would register the fact that they had accidentally said something hideous. They had insulted the memory of war dead. I know what you're thinking. He's done it before, James. He did it to Americans. gold star families. He d he did it to a to to to the to the grieving mother and father of a dead American soldier. Yeah, but he was black, you see, so an awful lot of people who love the racism, the misogyny and the climate change denial, th they didn't really care.

If you sat here saying, How can somebody who would want to be president of the United States of America insult the memory of a gold star soldier from the US military and people would say, Oh, you've got Trump derangement syndrome because that guy was black. But now he's done it to 457 British men and women. members of the armies and the military services of other

allies as well, as Mark Rutter, the um the head of NATO, explained to Donald Trump there. So Donald Trump would change his tune, right? And if he were to, for example, pop up on Fox News a few minutes later to be interviewed, he wouldn't dare. Or he wouldn't dream, no normal human being would dream of not just failing to retreat from the previously established position, but to actually go further into the horrific. Sacrifice maligning lies.

I've always said, Will they be there if we ever needed them? And that's really the ultimate test. And I'm not sure of that. I know that we would have been there or we would be there. But will they be there and uh let's hope that that never happens. We've never needed them. We have never really asked

anything of them. You know, they'll say they sent some troops to Afghanistan or this or that. And they did. They stayed a little back, a little off the front lines. But uh we uh we've been very good to Europe and to many other countries. And you know, now under my administration that began because we had a very successful first term. That began then, but uh it has to be a two way street.

Uh not not in in a um in a conventional sense. Obviously he possesses some diabolical genius, otherwise he wouldn't have risen to the top of the power pyramid of the Western world. But he's so stupid. He's so proud of his so st stupidity. He's too stupid to realise how stupid he is, which has

Dunning Kruger explained a few years ago, can be something of a superpower, but that that you heard correctly. You may as a as a military family be hearing this for the first time. The President of the United States of America has described Our contribution to the twenty year deployment in Afghanistan as involving staying away from the front lines and not really helping. And and I I don't know if you can tell from my voice. I I

What would you do with this? How many times this week, let alone this year, have we had to chronicle something so completely at odds with everything that we used to hold dear that you can't quite believe that you're doing it? I I don't even know how we do this. Do we say, Is this the worst thing he's ever done?

Is this the worst thing he's ever done? In the context of Uh the so-called special relationship in the context of NATO membership, in the context of Article Five, in the context of losing your life. in the service of, as it was during that twenty year deployment, Queen and Country, and then to have the Commander in Chief of our biggest ally, according to every sense, every definition of that word, the commander in chief of our biggest ally, to empty ashtrays over our graves.

to deny that that sacrifice was even made. I don't I don't I don't feel angry. I feel a bit n I didn't know how I was gonna feel'cause I processed stuff off air Like a normal person. And then I process it again on air sometimes, as if it doesn't become completely real until I'm sharing it with you.

And wondering how we are gonna respond and react to this. And and the question of is this the worst thing he's ever done? I thought I would be spluttering now and smashing the desk and barking into the microphone as I have done on some mornings this week.

But I think I'm numb. Because uh h how so j January the sixth, right? You know that I thought that was it. I that was the moment where I thought all the cheerleaders, all the all the all the butt kissers, all the apologists, I thought they would all somehow retreat. from their support for him, which we can only really understand as something that can be sustained only according to how much you love the racism, the misogyny and the climate change denial. There is no other way.

to make sense of Donald Trump's support. They love the racism, they love the misogyny, they love the climate change denial in equal um in in unequal proportion. For every Donald Trump apologist, whether they are writing columns in UK newspapers or whether they are sitting in his cabinet or whether they're voting for him, the way that you can close your eyes to the hideousness

is because you love the hideousness. I've got an example for you later this program that provides I I mean that that the most unimaginably powerful proof that the cruelty is the point. U e even I have had to triple check it, Eleanor and I triple check this morning that that this was actually real and true. It is an example of cruelty being the entire point so utterly, utterly incontrovertible that you too will think

But I thought on January the sixth that that that that it would be the moment of absolute unity. Everybody would come together. Whether they'd appeared on The Apprentice with him in the United States of America or written newspaper columns about how wonderful he was or just followed whatever line Rupert Murdoch was telling his employees past and present to follow. I just thought everyone would say you can't do this, you can't launch an insurrection.

In in in in the United States of America, you know, the land of J uh George Washington, Alexander Hamilton. You can't you can't launch an armed insurrection while lying about the results of a democratic election. And it didn't happen. It happened a bit. There was there was quite a lot of pushback. It's easy to forget that because they've tried to rewrite history subsequently. And then you've rewind to January of last year.

And the pardons that became uh something of an avalanche. Almost immediately he'd got his um feet through the door of the White House for the second time. He started pardoning the people who were baying for the blood of police officers and politicians on in the capital. And you thought then, well surely now, how seductive can the lure of racism, misogyny, and climate change denial really be? How addictive and intoxicating can those three Anomaly.

How can they I mean'cause if you don't suffer from this condition, you've got no idea what it's like. I love the racism. I don't really I'm not I don't really care about the race and but I love the misogyny. The sooner women are back in their place.

not allowed to have sexual autonomy, staying at home, looking after that. The sooner women are back in their nineteenth century roles, then the better for all concerned. And then of course the climate change denial, which is the most commercially driven element of it all. But those three things. give you the The ability to look the other way. the ability to sit comfortably with it. And here we are now, with him actually insulting the the war dead. And I don't I don't know

I I I don't know what you do. Getting angry doesn't achieve anything? Explaining it all, repeating it all, looking the other way. I mean it is absolutely extraordinary.

I'm gonna play you that clip again, because you could be forgiven for not quite believing your ears. The commander in chief of the United States of America, the country that triggered Article five of NATO and saw allies joining them in their twenty year deployment in Afghanistan and in the case of of hundreds of troops and other personnel making the ultimate sacrifice, giving their lives On battlefields and elsewhere.

In support of their alliance with NATO and in support of the United States of America and their commander-in-chief. Just said this. I've always said, Will they be there if we ever needed them? And that's really the ultimate test. And I'm not sure of that. I know that we would have been there or we would be there. But will they be there and uh let's hope that that never happens. We've never needed them.

We have never really asked anything of them. You know, they'll say they sent some troops to Afghanistan or this or that. And they did. They stayed a little back, little off the front lines. But uh we uh we've been very good to Europe and to many other countries. And you know, now under my administration that began because we had a very successful first term. That began then, but uh it has to be a two way street.

Do you think Putin told him that? Where where on earth would the President of the United States of America get the idea that NATO allies somehow held back from the front line? Where where would he get that idea from? Do you think Vladimir Putin told him that? You you can spot the traitors in our midst, by the way they talk about NATO. Oh, by the way, I've got Nigel Farage's statement on on this subject for you, uh uh uh just in a few moments, his condemnation.

uh of Donald Trump, because obviously a massive patriot like Nigel Farage would have would have a lot to say about this. Um so I'll play that for you shortly. Um but where would he get this idea that the NATO allies in Afghanistan had had been less than committed to the cause. I I honestly don't think he could have made it up himself, could he? Somebody has told him this and it's unlikely to be anybody involved in the military. It's unlikely to be anybody American.

I honestly think that the best case scenario, that the Occam's razor resolution to this issue is that s is that Vladimir Putin told him this, knowing what an idiot he is. that he would believe it, if it suited him, to pretend or indeed to believe it. Um The the the The question obviously and I don't always like obvious questions, but some days it would be remiss of me to ask you any other, is is how you respond to this, particularly as a as a military family, particularly

encourage you to ring in if you did lose someone, but if you want to talk to me about how you respond to this extraordinary moment because it is, and that's the thing you have to hang on to. That's where you have to resist the numbness. Because it is an it is a d it is a beyond comprehension moment. It's a moment of unutterable horror. It really is.

We need to keep reminding each other of that, you know? Probably even now it's time to stop mocking the the the hideous characters who used Trump derangement syndrome as an insult or tried to. W we need to focus on how utterly awful these moments are because y you know, the really, really bad stuff, that five year old boy who was uh got captured, kidnapped, call it what you will, by ICE.

Happily that has received rather more coverage since I told you about it yesterday and pointed out that it fits almost entirely with Anne Frank's description of what was happening. in Amsterdam during the actual Holocaust, uh the rounding up of people. Terrible things are happening outside. she wrote. Children are coming home from school to find their parents gone. That literally happened in Minneapolis this week. So you have to, you have to, you can't become

You can't become normalized. You can't become complacent just because the thing that happened yesterday was gross. You can't let it dilute the grossness of what happened today. And that's why I'm gonna hand over to you in a minute and just ask you to tell me just straight up. Traditional radiophone in response to what you have just heard from the powerful man in the world.

From the commander in chief of the United States of America, from the successor to the commander in chief that triggered Article five of NATO and called upon British, Danish, French, German troops to join them in Afghanistan and in hundreds and hundreds of cases to make the ultimate sacrifice. To die in pursuit of a military goal set by the United States of America and now to have the commander in chief say they didn't really do anything. I actually feel sick. They didn't really do anything.

They didn't really go to the front line. You remember the footage of Prince Harry giving an interview, I think, to the BBC and the alarm goes off at Camp Bastion and he's out of there. Like a rat up a drainpipe, no questions, no apologies, no nothing, takes off the microphone, sprints, runs. Mae'n llawer o'r columnist sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n.

The pages that will have been written to when we finally get around to having a look at what Dick Littlejohn has had to say about this in the Daily Mail today, you're gonna be able to warm your hands from a hundred feet away at the scale of his anger and his horror at what his previous hero Donald Trump has done to the memories of Britain's war dead. But I want to know what you think of it first. O three four five six zero six zero nine seven three. And don't. I'm not gonna let you.

Rydyn ni'n ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud ei wneud It's ten twenty five. Twenty seven minutes after ten is the time. And Thank you. Um uh just for keeping me company while I process. You often thank me.

Uh um sometimes people use the phrase of keeping me sane, but I always say to them, Well prove it. How do how do I know you're sane? But it cuts both ways. I I I I struggle to process some of this stuff just as much as you do. If I didn't do this for a living I'd be tempted to turn away.

Um, I know I would have never ever gone down the road of of being a cheerleader or an apologist. I could probably ta trace that back to the moment he started boasting about sexually assaulting women or um maligning the memory of of war heroes. Rydyn ni'n ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud.

So it didn't really matter much, did it? And here we are, them maligning the memory of four hundred and fifty seven British personnel, including members of the military, that died during a twenty year deployment in Afghanistan, but according to Donald Trump, didn't really go near the front line, held back a bit and didn't really help.

Aidan's in Royston in Hertfordshire. How do we process this, Aidan? How do you? Mae'n ymwneud yn ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud. For rescuing casualties. Not once, but three times. On the fire. And uh never guessed what nationality those casualties were. Well, I don't I I think we don't need to guess, do we?

Yeah, so I just said to a researcher yep. Yeah. So I just said to a researcher that uh what I would really, really like is We're a very senior military official in America to stand up, have the courage to say to him to Trump, You are wrong, wrong, wrong. yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw Get my words wrong, but I I'm so I'm so grateful for your obvious emotion this morning because of what we were talking about a moment ago. It happens so often and there's so much.

that we can easily, easily lose the ability to respond as powerfully as we should to something as hideous as this. And you are really responding powerfully today, aren't you? As I said to a researcher, I was actually serving in Macedonia with American forces when 9-11 happened. We were in this warehouse and we were watching TV as it happened.

Um and obviously they were devastated. They were just uh you know, with and we really felt for them. And we s I remember saying to them, Don't worry, you know, whatever happens, we will be there for you. However this turns out you know, the British British army, the British forces, we we will support you. I I'm interested in that. I I I we've also got Johnson Bahari, haven't we?

Courage and and and bravery was very specifically in the s in in the in the service of rescuing American Marines. Uh and and Donald Trump says that they didn't go near the front line. I mean, what do you do now? You know, if you you know

You want your head to your head to almost explodes. I I and and we'll move on later I think and and thanks for teeing it up to that question of what the NATO relationship means to military men like you. Can I t I tell you a little story, um which hopefully will put a smile on your face?

And a pal of mine has been reminiscing this morning about visiting SeaWorld in Orlando in in in about twenty thirteen and and um the announcer at one of the shows asked all the veterans in the audience to stand up. And and there was a big round of applause, as you'd expect. And then the same announcer asked all the veterans from America's allies to stand up. And and according to my pal Gabriel, the applause was even louder.

And and he said that was rather moving. So it's important to remember that Donald Trump does not speak for the United States Army, the United States military or the people of the United States when he says these disgusting things.

No, no, absolutely. And and there will be people in America will be absolutely horrified. I mean it just d you know, sorry, I'm just gonna yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n was shot in the face by an entirely unthreatened and unendangered member of ICE, the same organization that was um capturing five year old children from uh from drive earlier this week and taking away

Um the parent who would be absent when his older brother returned home. Terrible things are happening outside. I hope you're right. I hope that was the beginning of the end, but Dick Little John was still writing love letters to Donald Trump after that happened. But I'm sure he hasn't today. So we'll we'll turn to that column shortly and find out just how.'Cause he's got a great way with words. That's why the Daily Mail pay him so much.

Uh, we can find out just how much fury he has brought to bear on this hideo in insult, not just to Joshua Leakey, but to Aidan and to everybody who's ever served. Especially under a NATO mission. ten thirty three is the time. Dominic Ellis has your headline. I I hope this is appropriate. I think the technical term is trauma disassociating. I I I think Aidan brought home there.

Especially for people who have served in the military. God knows how the families of our of of of people who who died in Afghanistan are dealing with the fact that the that the man in charge, ultimately the commander in chief of that operation Has said they didn't really do much. That's trauma. That is proper trauma. I think you can be traumatized hearing about it, talking about it.

Um and and you disassociate from it because trauma is hard, trauma is horrible. So you do trauma that's I think what we've been trying to nail down over the course of this week. I I find it unbearable. I can't tell you how much I envy the people who can turn up, shoot their mouth off for three hours and go home.

I I I I know that there are people listening to this in tears, like Aidan. I know that there are families who would never phone a radio station in a billion years, who are dealing with a horror and a pain that is unimaginable. Rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy.

But the trauma today comes from the relationship that we have with military sacrifice, the relationship that we're encouraged to have, the thoughts that we hold in our hearts and sometimes share when we wear poppies, or or when we commemorate anniversaries of of battles or of ceasefires, particularly in the context of the Second World War, from the ashes of which NATO rose. And and NATO is, or was, the the bulwark against

that kind of horror. A repeat of that kind of horror. Not only is Trump undermining and dismantling it, but in doing so he's insulting The people who made the ultimate sacrifice. Anyway, I'm I I say this every day at the moment. I'm talking too much. I want to hear more from you. Phone lines are open. There's a couple of phone lines free still. O three four four four four four four six oh six oh nine seven three is the number you need. John is in Glasgow. John, what would you like to say?

Um Okay. Yeah, like I just like No, you don't need to. I actually had it in front of me, John, by coincidence. Well not I don't know if it's the citation, but but um I I've got what he said and then I've got the description of what happened. When you hear there's a man down, the hairs on the back of your neck stand up, clearly then your plans change.

Realizing the seriousness of the situation and with complete disregard for his own safety, he dashed across a large area of barren hillside, being raked with machine gun fire. As he crested the hill, the full severity of the situation became apparent. Approximately twenty enemy had surrounded two friendly machine gun teams and a mortar section, rendering their critical fire support ineffective.

Under fire, yet undeterred by the very clear and present danger, Lance Corporal Leakey ran across the exposed slope of the hill three times to initiate casualty evacuation, re sighted machine guns, and return fire. His actions proved the turning point, inspiring his comrades to fight back with renewed ferocity, displaying gritty leadership well above that expected of his rank, Lars Corporal's Lars Corporal Leakey's actions single handedly regained the initiative.

and prevented considerable loss of life. And it was the United States Marine Corps who were holding the positions that he evacuated the casualties from. Or to paraphrase the Commander in Chief of the United States of America. He held back from the front line, John. Th the I want to also say that Josh didn't do his actions thinking that um he would be awarded the highest uh honour. He did it for like the overarching goods, like the right thing to do.

Um I joined in two thousand and one and was part of the ava invasion in two thousand and three. Um I was unfortunately medically discharged in twenty seventeen. for like uh complex PTSD, everything just caught up with me. Um Of course. I'm sorry. Um but that's not your fault. We can't go back and change things. Um ma like I d I don't ha not like I'm really angry, sorry. I apologize. Uh Trump is a war dodger and has n he is on he is in no position to comment on anybody's bravery. He is a coward.

And um when I watched the the media I think he feels like he's part of these operations that have happened recently. Like it increases his um his uh masculinity as a leader. Um I don't I mean I b uh the the psychological makeup of the man is something we could probably gonna spend the rest of our lives trying to unravel. But but I can't quite And I don't even know if it's appropriate to invite you to try, but wha w I mean, how could he get such a hideously wrong idea about recent history?

I think uh the lack of him actually being interested in it, um his team around him. Um uh I just wanted to bring up the other points I raised for a researcher in that um In Helmand, the Americans couldn't get onto the ground without British soldiers being there. They were stuck behind their fences or whatever reservoir and it had to take. But it's being part of their operation to get them to get into combat

And uh I uh like we ha um this is quite like a I would say a heartwarming story. My last story Afghanistan, uh my mum used to send out like caramel shortbread. Uhhuh. And uh The Americans who we there's only a few of them loved it. And that was like um it became like a a bar sort of trade uh situation. I would trade for um it was a brand called Rip It, high caffeine drink.

and uh also clothing and they would take most of the caramel short red and that that that's what the relationship was like. It was a brotherhood, you know, like for the greater cause I can't like um we had like similar like similar values, you know. Like the s what what people will think of Afghanistan in the future I can't predict. But being in it, like um

And not being political that it was uh like there was just a connection. Like yeah. And isn't it's interesting, that's two two veterans now that I've spoken to who have gone on to The question that I that I was really thinking about at ten o'clock this morning and the question of what the alliance is about, what the actual relationship is all about, what what marching

fighting under the same flag as it were, a NATO flag, as it were, w w was about'cause that's something the rest of us never really think about, never really know about. And it makes what Trump has said and what Trump has done even more offensive, e even more obnoxious. My personal opinion is that uh the UK needs to completely cut ties with America and not be reliant on them and with Europe recreate the infrastructure needed to

um replace what American sometimes provided for us. I uh and we've been talking about that since Putin went into Ukraine actually. Um uh and it and or at least since Trump got back into the White House and it became clear that his commitment to Ukraine was

um at at the very least questionable, although of course yesterday and we may get onto this later in the programme, Voloda Mizelensky was very, very critical about the role that Europe is currently playing in the support for Ukraine, which um I think it's probably evidentially true, but it is

it's gonna reach some ears very uncomfortably um on this side of the Atlantic, on this on this side of Europe. John, thank you. I I it's quite an American thing today to to do and to say, but I think on days like today it's probably appropriate for me also to say Thank you for your service and and look after yourself. But the ignorance the the actual ignorance in the purest sense of the word, the ignorance of just not knowing stuff.

Let alone the ignorance in the in the in the broader sense of the word of insulting our war debt, but the ignorance of not knowing And and and the case of last corporal Joshua Leakey being absolutely front and centre. in uh in response to the claim that NATO allies didn't do much and held back from the front line during that twenty year deployment in Afghanistan that was undertaken only as a consequence

of our NATO membership and the United States being the only member ever to trigger Article five by which everybody is required to respond, every signatory. ten forty five is the time. Ten forty eight is the time. It is it is I I I'm grateful to Emma for introducing me to that phrase. Trauma disassociation. And and you can Dress it up in media terms like flooding the zone or dead cats. But the uh the idea that you are just disappearing in a tidal wave of filth.

So you can't properly focus on how hideous the latest example of filth is. But what Trump said about our troops yesterday is actually beyond belief. Um I guess that supporters will have to do what Orwell told them to do and ignore the evidence of their eyes and ears in order to um somehow cling to the idea that they haven't sullied themselves and and and uh whatever organs they work for or whatever institutions they represent by failing to see what the rest of us could see so clearly.

Even before he became president the first time. But there it is.

Um, Anne is in Cambridge. Anne, what made you pick up the phone? Um, I was just on my way back from a yin yoga class and I heard you mention the word trauma and I am traumatized. I am an ex military mum. My son was in the Royal Marines. He did three tours of Afghanistan before his nineteenth birthday. His first tour was in Sangin, operating from a patrol base and a for a forward operating base.

So not at all on the front line. Um holding back. Holding back from the front line and I think is the phrase we use today. Yeah, he didn't hold back from the front line. When he was he had the opportunity to phone me. They use the um the satellite phone but when there was a desk They used to go onto what they called minimize.

So there was no contact. So it'd be f so that they could inform the families. And I never knew whether it was gonna be me, whether they were going to be waiting outside my door. Um so when he could show me I had to pay. I think they got so many so many t minutes on the satellite phone free.

And when but I had I paid extra so that he could speak to me and his girlfriend when he when he was able to. And he used to say things to me like, Did you hear that mum? I was like, No, what are you talking about? Rydyn ni'n ei wneud, ond rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Rydyn ni'n ei wneud, ond rydyn ni'n ei wneud. Not so not at all on the front line. Wow. Um, he then when he came home he then did um two further tours of Afghanistan with S B.

special boats, you know, special services. And I didn't even have a clue where he is. And at one point I asked him where he was. He said, You can't expect me to answer that. Um, things like I used to go and visit my parents just to reassure his grandparents that he was okay and before I even went to see my parents I had to tell his company, his unit where I was in case he was killed. Because they would have to be able to find you to tell you.

I I So it's a constant I don't think that those of us on Civvy Street fully appreciate that constant nature of fear. It's a constant it's ever present. And as I was teacher and um I'm retired now and every time we did a, you know, Remembrance Day assembly, I couldn't go into the assembly because I was just so traumatized by the whole remembrance thing.

I also taught English literature and one of the poems we had to teach was poppies and my colleagues wouldn't let me teach it. They had to teach my lessons because of the trauma that brought that all brought back to me. And it's the only word to use. I am I am traumatised today. I am very much traumatised. This housing has triggered me to an extent that I'm quite

Because you and I don't want to put words into your mouth, but because you can just about process what you went through with the knowledge of what a noble thing your boy was doing. Yes. And to have the commander in chief of the United States say it wasn't noble at all. is absolutely uh I I I mean i I don't know what word to use to describe. I you know, I I uh I've always thought that Trumpy wasn't a sentient being. I've always sort of worked that one out.

But now I just he I've upgraded my assessment of him from absolute lunatic to uh an unpri unprintable, un un I can't say it on the radio. No, don't. I I mean well you can if you want, but it'll be me that it'll be me that gets into trouble with Ofcom, not you. Although we know that Keith's very good at uh at hitting the correct button. I'm sorry, I'm really sorry that you're going through this today. And and a and and I I hesitate to say this, but Could you imagine

What it would be like for a mum whose son didn't come back. Well, no, I g I can't I can't because it's just I can't I can't and it to to i you know, if I feel insulted, those women, those girlfriends, those sisters, those wives I just the what he has done to them is is inexc I I it's not even inexcusable. And it will be really interesting when the king goes to visit there is actually film of Harry leaving an interview to go and uh journey's unit because they were under attack.

There is. I I I'd I've I've watched it a few times and I I often think of it when I see the kicking that he's getting from um members of the British media that have never been near a front line in their life, and never been n near a war zone in their life and yet they're sitting in judgment of his courage and and uh integrity on on an almost daily basis.

How how I d and you don't have to answer this and I'm not sure I should even ask, but how how how is your son? Is he all right? Oh he's fine. I mean, you know, the the point is he was he was Royal Marine, the king's badgman. Wow. So, you know, he was pretty good at what he did. He um he won the Y um he he won the Young Navy sports personality of the year. He was he's an exemplary young lad. I never fail to feel so proud of my son. And now he's a critical nurse care nurse working in the NHS.

Bloody hell, you must have done something right. I know, I know, I know. All right. So, you know, um so the draft dodger with three sons who have done absolutely Absolutely nothing with their lives except hang on their the big the biggest example of Nepo babies in the world. Yeah. And tells me that my son didn't do his bit and he is still doing his bit.

I mean, it's not for you and me now, it's certainly not for you to worry about such things, but where on earth would that come from? It's so unnecessary to say. It can be critical of NATO. You know, albeit that it's a Kremlin talking point to be critical of NATO. He c we we we we know he never does anything that

a Kremlin place wouldn't do in the White House. If you know, if someone have ca if Vladimir Putin had personally selected a president, he couldn't have done anything different from what Donald Trump has done. But why would he say that about MATO allies about actual troops. About your son, and Right, I know. He's yeah, well as I say, he's gone he's n he's not even a sentient being, we know that, but now he's just

Well he's proved it. He's just I do you know, I've got a dear loving beloved aunt who's eighty five and has got Alzheimer's and she makes more sense than he does. Can't believe you made me laugh at the end of this. You almost made me cry two minutes ago.

Yeah. Absolutely extraordinary. And thank you. Are you all right? I'm all right. I've just done my yin yoga class and now I need to. We've undone all that, haven't we, in the space of a single radio programme? I d I maybe you need to go back for a for a top up. No, I'm going to put a bottle of wine in the fridge. It's not too early, is it? No, it's not too early to pop it in the fridge, Anne, although, you know, I think Friday.

Sometimes Friday evening can't come around soon enough. Thank you so much. And also for humanising. Not that it needs much humanising, but um to speak to military veterans and then to the mother of somebody who is every single day as you p I can't imagine that. I can't imagine that. Every single day, every time the doorbell goes. Mae'n ymwneud â phobl. Mae'n ymwneud â phobl. Felly, mae'n ymwneud â phobl. Felly, mae'n ymwneud â phobl. Mae'n ymwneud â phobl.

Um d for delivering the m the worst imaginable but constantly feared news. And then to hear I think it's right to keep referring to him as the commander in chief. Um I can't I can't believe it. We've been talking about it for an hour and I actually can't believe this has happened. And you know, all the other questions that we've been asking almost every day for a year, what should Keir Starmer do? How should Keir Starmer handle this?

You see how those questions get less loud every time a disgusting thing happens. Imagine if Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, George Bush, Ronald Reagan, imagine if any of them had denigrated the memory of British war dead. I m imagine if you really, like me, have a um a particular animus for the right wing newspapers in this country, imagine if Barack Obama had done it. What do you think would be on the front page of the Daily Mail today? Do you think it would be a story about Andy Burnham?

And uh an invitation to read about a mum who used to take ketamine. No mention at all. Oh, and Brooklyn Beckham. If Barack Obama had maligned the memory of British war dead, what do you think our right wing newspapers would be doing today or indeed our our right wing blowhards and commentators and broadcasters? Uh, I would be as outraged and as disgusted as I am by Donald Trump doing it, because it isn't about who has done it, it is about what has been done.

But of course the difference would be nobody is surprised by this. Nobody thinks it's out of character, nobody thinks it's remarkable. We are shocked once again, but not surprised. And We find ourselves register or at least I do, registering the fact that because we are so used to the trauma, we are now responding to it differently. We're not demanding comments from Downing Street. I d I d I mean, how have Downing Street not said anything yet? I know the ministers on the

Broadcast rounds have done it. But isn't this a moment really for for Downing Street to actually intervene and do something? The palace? I I I don't know, because there is no precedent, there's no rule book to follow. But I do know that if this had come out of the blue, if this had if this had occurred in a in a period of normality,

then the reaction would be off the charts. But because it's occurred as the latest in a very long line of hideousness, the latest in a very long line of unconscionable conduct The reaction is is a bit muted. Well not here. O three four five six zero six zero nine seven three is the number you need. Daz in Norwich reminds me that Barack Obama got slated for moving a statue of Winston Churchill.

But so far nothing from all the people Oh, that's not true. I do actually have um I do have a statement from Donald Trump's biggest supporter and fan in this country. Uh, Nigel Farr is the leader of Reform UK. This is what he has to say about his hero and great friend insulting the memory of four hundred and fifty seven British people who died in Afghanistan. It's eleven o'clock. It is eleven oh three. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. This is from Stu. Um

James, I was deployed to Afghanistan in two twenty thousand two thousand and six seven on Operation Herrick five. We had the Danish under our command. Our area of operations was Helmand and with the Estonians, the Danes and our own Royal Marine battle groups we had one of the most active areas in Afghanistan at that time.

Yes, we had US forces in our area too, but firstly, in an insurgency such as that, there is no front line. And secondly, all troops were in constant contact with the insurgents wherever they were and fought bravely and with distinction. I'm sure the US military community will be aware of that.

And and um I think some former US generals have come forward to condemn what Donald Trump has said, but it is it's scant consolation to the people dealing with this extraordinary intervention from the man who is. The commander in chief. And if if if you're just joining us, um and you're you're you're not quite familiar with this. um story and and I I imagine and I've said this to you a few times, you probably aren't going to believe me when I tell you.

But you don't have to believe me'cause you can listen to Donald Trump being interviewed on Fox News yesterday saying this. I've always said, Will they be there if we ever needed them? And that's really the ultimate test. And I'm not sure of that. I know that we would have been there or we would be there. But will they be there? And uh let's hope that that never happens. We've never needed them. We have never really asked

anything of them. You know, they'll say they sent some troops to Afghanistan or this or that. And they did. They stayed a little back, little off the front lines. But uh we uh we've been very good to Europe and to many other countries. And you know, now under my administration that began because we had a very successful first term. That began then, but uh it has to be a two way street.

Um uh before that I just need to clear something up. I played the wrong clip a moment ago. I said Nigel Farage had made a statement about Donald Trump in this hideous moment and uh we accidentally played some sort of tumbleweed sound effect. Here here is here's the real clip. This is The single most resilient and bravest person I have ever met.

in my life. Oh Keith, mate, you're gonna get me into trouble. Can we can we be sure to get it right this time? He is simply the bravest man that I know and we should all applaud him. Hmm. Okay, now for the for the final time, this is categorically what Nigel Farrett has had to say on the subject of his hero and indeed the bravest man he's ever met, maligning the memory of British

soldiers who died in the service of their country. I I mean to be fair to Farage, I doubt he's ever met any of them, but um this is what he actually had to say about the bravest man he's ever met, maligning the memories of our own war dead. Absolutely nothing. James is in Market Harbor. James, what made you pick up the phone?

Hi James. Um Army reservist. Served in Afghanistan for seven months back end of twenty eleven, twenty twelve, lost three of my team who were the loc the Afghan locally employed civilians. stood on the square at Camp Bastion for probably about twenty six repatriations of people that died, having listened to what Anne said you earlier on, John had tens of thousands of parents who lost

People had their loved ones injured are going through the exact same trauma that I'm going through and I came back with PTFD. So hearing what uh the orange clown said Um, uh my emotions are just all over the place, James. I don't know what to think. It's a mixture of anger, disappointment, sickness. and I hope to God that all the servicemen in the UK, American servicemen in the UK are listening to this right now and not venturing out of their fences because

I know it's not their fault, but he's their commander in chief and look what he's done to us. W look how he's denigrated the memory of what we've all been through. He's a full I mean they won't I mean you will know better than I do that they they won't really be allowed to do anything, will they, if they're still in service. They they won't be allowed to um uh to to to speak out against the commander in chief and we know how Donald Trump's administration deals with

deals with dissent anyway. I I think they're they're trying to pursue Um criminal action against uh a senator who simply advised members of the armed forces not to obey illegal orders when they were blowing up people on no evidence in the in the um in th the ocean off Venezuela. It's what what um

Wha what what what what can he do? I mean, what what even do you think was going through his mind? I d this is the bit I'm struggling with. Is it normally you can say, Oh, I can see why he's done that and I can see why he's done that but what on earth has he um What on earth has he has he done this for?

Um, well it kind of takes you back to primary school when you have the the schoolyard bully who just goes round and just picks on everybody, steals their sweets, tells everyone else that they're an idiot and look how brave I am. Um but really that's the injustice to five year olds really, isn't it? Yes, yes it is. What what was he thinking? It's just

Yeah, I it just blows my mind. And it'll be blowing the mind of all my brothers and sisters and the British forces, the Danish forces, Estonian forces. And all the rest of us who served in on ISAF in Afghanistan on OPEREC, uh yeah, what can you say really? I don't know. Uh but it's important to say something, isn't it? It's important to say something. Um I I I to be honest, James, I hope that his majesty does not go to America because all that will happen is that he'll play into

um little story of, oh, look at me, I'm a great, I I'm here with, you know, all these important people. Um Yeah, please, your majesty, don't go to America. Don't become one of his photo shoots. Remember what your son went through and remember what tens of thousands of the rest of us who serve in the armed forces did did and um yeah don't if it's don't humor him. Yeah, and and taking your call in conjunction with Anne.

And that notion I hadn't thought about that before, th that the king would have been living with th the fear of losing his son, in the same way that all military families know that th that the knock on the door could come at any moment. You know, the helicopter Harry was in could have been

shot out of the sky by um uh by the Taliban. And uh He could have been killed by Mortar James, the same way that many of us who were at Helmund at Kandahar, at Kabul you know, the alarm goes off and you run for the collection collector protection and you don't know whether you know, that mortar's got your name on it. Thankfully, not many did, but there were still all the IDs.

and all the snipers and they're the ones that killed my three Ufgans. And, you know, twent twenty two over the time we were there and the same number were critically injured. And and here he is. I just I I mean I haven't got the vocabulary to describe what he's done. I can use words like insulting or or or or maligning or sullying, but they don't actually feel strong enough. I mean that's some rude words I could use.

to describe what he's done, but I'm not sure they would be sufficient either. Thank you, James. Thank you. I mean for everything. Eleven minutes after eleven is the time. We will move on a bit. perhaps this hour, although I'm not gonna really move on until I sense that that that I don't have a long queue of people wanting to do what James has done and what Anne has done and what Aidan has done and what everyone has done this morning, which is to get stuff off their chest.

in response to, I think, the single most hideous intervention in British life ever undertaken by a US president. Do you remember when the various ghouls and idiots were queuing up to condemn Barack Obama for making comments about what our trade relationship with the country he was governing would be in the event of us leaving the European Union? They couldn't wait. I mean it was extraordinary the vituperative.

nature of much of the coverage. In fact that reminds me we must have a look at what Richard Littlejohn in the Daily Mail has had to say about this because Uh, he's a big patriot. He once cur compared Nigel Ferris to a Spitfire captain.

after Brexit loves the military, loves his military analogies even, loves loves loves this country, despite not living here for for for much of his career. Really loves this country, old Dick Little John. So we'll turn to his column shortly and find out what he has to say about this ex I mean hideous, hideous intervention from a man who only last week he was telling us he wished actually I think it was this week he wished was in charge of the United Kingdom.

And that was after Renee Nicole Good was shot in the face by ICE agents. But before that, and much more importantly, Trevor is in New Elton. Trevor, what would you like to see?

Um, only my my daughter joined the British Army just under a year ago. And um I mean she's good. And she's a square peg and a square hole. It's I get it. I sorry, I I understood what I've I've not heard that phrase before, but um I've not heard it doctored that way before, Trevor. But of course I understand what it means.

Yeah, and to say we're we're proud of her i is a an understatement. Um and we've talked to the family that once she's finished her training and if this peace process goes off she could well be deployed to Ukraine. And and I try and reassure mainly my wife that that being the case, you know, she'd be there with the support. and the back up of her allies and obviously America is is the main one and and for me currently those words just feel hollow.

Because this is such a a profound undermining of of of of of of the status quo of of the of the the the bonds of trust really, the bonds of obligation that hold military alliances together. Yeah. And um There's actually a plaque in her barracks where commemorating the fact that that was the holding point for the repatriated soldiers when they came back. Um

from Afghanistan before they made their their final journey through Royal Water and Bassett. There's a pack commemorating them in the barracks that she lives. Wow. Um And also w my final thing is in a previous life I had caused to go to Headling Court. Yeah. Where I saw those that came back not only physically but mentally scarred. Um Yeah, and it's just it's heartbreaking. Objectively that it happened.

But the fact that it's compounded today by these comments is I hadn't thought of the wider ramifications for for people currently serving, about the confidence they can have in their allies. And again it's not about the men and women in uniform, it's about the commander in chief.

Yeah. And what he does and represents. But I hope you're still proud of your daughter, yeah. Oh yeah, and and I know in a heartbeat she'd go not to put support anyone other than her colleagues that are with her. She'd be there for them. And that and and and that's the point. And the commander in chief uh uh theoretically should be in that same bracket. It should be one of the people who is on the same side, one of the people who is

part of the same cause. Not not in in battle, obviously, but in essence, in philosophy, in principle, that they are fighting together. And he has just insulted everybody who who isn't American. He's insulted every NATO soldier, ev every soldier, every sailor, every airman or woman in a NATO country that isn't American has been insulted by Donald Trump today. In in the most hideous way because of course it was the United States

um uh activated Article five, by by which all members are required to act as one. It didn't happen during Iraq. Canada and and uh France didn't go, other countries didn't go. I our history has probably taught us that we shouldn't have gone. Uh but here we are. Here we are. It's eleven sixteen.

Eighteen minutes after eleven you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Um it's not just me and you today. I'll be delighted to tell you I'll be joined by Emily Maitless uh at about quarter to twelve today, so later at this hour, who is just back from um Minnesota, just back from Minneapolis and will be able to provide us with I think a much needed account uh uh o of exactly what is going on on the ground there. Um

And then at twelve forty five twelve thirty, uh as scheduled. Currently Simon Marks will join us live from Washington DC to look at well, I mean, how many times have we had Simon on the programme without even knowing where to start? But I am interested, um, among other things in the um testimony that Jack Smith was giving to Congress yesterday, uh, with regards to Trump's attempts to steal

the twenty twenty election. Another one of those moments where you would have thought that everybody minded to cheer for him would have changed their minds. Which brings us of course to Dick Littlejohn, the Daily Mail columnist, who earlier this week was explaining why he'd rather be led by Trump than Keir Starmer and who has yep, he has got a column in the paper today, so we can see what he's got to say about Donald Trump insulting the memory of the British war dead.

Um I'll read it cold. Uh what have Liverpool and Scotland football legend Kenny Dalgliche and the former Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby got in common? It's a strange intro for a piece about How disgusting it is to malign the memories of dead British soldiers. They're just two of more than a million motorists who have fallen foul of recently introduced twenty mile per hour limits.

This is the star columnist of of the country's best selling newspaper on the day after the President of the United States of America insulted Every member of our military, every member of every military in NATO except the United States. Sh maybe it's a s sort of Dal Gleesh was caught driving at 30 miles per hour in Little Crosby on Merseyside, which would have been perfectly legal a few... I mean, what a columnist is asked. Mm-hmm.

by their editor every time they have a column due, is what what are you most animated by today? What are you most exercised by? What are you most angered by? But also sometimes what are you most delighted by? What do you think is the most important issue? facing you, your readers, your country at the moment.

And they asked Dick Little John that question yesterday, the day that Donald Trump chose to insult four hundred and fifty seven dead British people killed in Afghanistan during a twenty year deployment undertaken at the behest of the Commander in Chief. of the United States of America and Richard Little John um Dick to his friends, if he has any, decided it's twenty mile per hour speed limits.

I I I mean I w I said it before I say it again, if it wasn't enough To boast about being a sex offender if it wasn't enough to be a multiple felon, if it wasn't enough to insult the Gold Star family of um Humayun Khan, killed in two thousand and four in Iraq, but his parents insulted by Donald Trump during his first campaign. It wasn't enough to incite an insurrection, it wasn't enough to all of those things. I wonder if this will be enough.

What was the deal, I wonder, mentally, intellectually or philosophically to decide to write about twenty miles per hour speed limits instead of The thing that the rest of the world is currently most exercised, animated, angered by. Twenty one minutes after eleven is the time. George is in Guildford. George, what made you pick up the phone?

Um, well I was a psalm major in in Afghanistan. Um and I was in part of a a unit which I don't really want to mention. Of course. Uh and myself and and a colleague were embedded with the eighty second Airborne. on a major operation in Afghanistan in two thousand and seven, I think it was. Yeah. And um I was leading a uh uh a stick going on to the Chinook helicopters along with uh a battalion of others. And uh my helicopter or the helicopter that was coming back from me was shot down.

Um and so I was waiting for a another helicopter with all the troops behind me. And when we got onto our replacement helicopter we had um Apache um escorts taking us in. and uh we were being shot at um from the ground because I was connected to the pilot with headphones because I was a s a chalk commander. Um, so to say that British soldiers weren't in the front line is

really insulting. Um well, you I think that you're a master of understatement this morning, George. Yeah. My my wife was uh she knew that I was on a major operation, so you can't tell her anything. to try and find if I'd I was a casualty and because I wasn't on the casualty list, um all they could say was that I'm not on the casualty list and she couldn't find out whether I was alive for another two weeks. Uh when the operation finished.

Um and I just wanted to add that uh in Iraq my unit had the first female soldier to be killed in Iraq, uh Corporal Sarah Bryant. Um and obviously she was on the front line as well. Um and I I I'm just incensed, to be honest. Do you do you I mean, I d I think this is probably a a question we'll never be able to answer, let alone today, but have we got any

inkling of what he th thought he was doing when he did. I mean, in his own warped mind, what what was he hoping to achieve with this comment? Because he's done it again and again. It's not as if he's had the chance to go, Oh He's he's doubled down on it as he often or if not always does. I just sometimes think that um you have to think about the target audience that he's he's speaking to.

Um it's not for us. It's for uh I think a lot of the um the uh American people that don't tend to travel anywhere. They most some of them most of them got passports. I don't think they're as worldly wise and engaged with

world affairs as say they revere their military and and I I mean sometimes to a a degree that I think Europeans or certainly Brits might find a little bit embarrassing. They revere their military and they revere their allies. I I don't know if you were listening earlier, a friend of mine

Um was reminiscing about a visit to a to a tourist attraction in Orlando and the the the announcer at SeaWorld asked all the veterans present to stand up and they got a r rousing round of applause and then they asked all of the veterans from America's allies who were in the audience to stand up and my friend said the applause if anything was even louder. So they do have a concept of of of of cohesion, you know, of of Oh totally right. Fellowship fellowship.

But I I think um Americans got this psych psyche that they are in they lead the world and I think he's just trying to emphasise that to his own peop it's not for our benefit. It's it's for his own people to sort of convince them that Uh the Americans, you know, were in the forefront of everything. They basically won the war like he may inferred in um in the Second World War as well. Um and I I think the target audience is literally his own people. It's not for anybody else.

And and and yeah, and and I mean we use the word base to describe his um his uh his own people, but it's gonna be a relatively small proportion of a relatively small proportion of America. This is like for the true believers, for the absolute. sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n

The the the testimony and the memory of of people like you, you know, of whom there are many. And and the statistics, the casualty statistics, the death toll, all of those things. They're not opinions, they're counting. And yet there'll be some people who cling to the Yeah. Uh I mean I I sent um soldiers on a on patrols and you know had one guy who lost his legs'cause his Land Rover was blown up and uh

While holding back from the front line, George. While holding back from the front line. Can you remember that d do you want to share the names of of of of the no, that's fine. I just give you that opportunity. But I respect your discretion, which is um not a word I think Donald Trump can spell, let alone understand the meaning of. George, thank you. I'm sorry for today. I'm sorry that this is

happened actually to to to to people like you and your former comrades and your and your current comrades. I'm really sorry that this has been inflicted upon you by The commander in chief of our greatest ally. Twenty seven minutes after eleven is the time.

John is in Gladbrug in Switzerland. John, what would you like to say? Good morning, sir. Hello. Um wow, what could you say? Um I heard this yesterday and I all I could do was grip on the steering wheel of my truck and scream. Um that I'm ma I know I'm I'm getting emotional so I'm sorry. And and and you can you can change your mind and you don't have to carry on talking if you don't want to. I this is your this is for you, not for for anyone else.

It's I I I did thirty two years in the Royal Marines. I joined in eighty seven, left in two thousand fourteen, um, did three tours of Afghanistan. Well actually four, actually Operation Jakarta and then went on to the operation. And went through through um three different rank structures, finished as a colour sergeant. Right. Um, lost nine friends. Um I'm sorry. I lost my cousin. You probably would have heard it on the TV. Gus O'Donnell, he was 5'9 Commando.

I've got a I I'm all over the place a mum. Um is this I'd love to stand in front of this talentless oik and say to him, You need to apologize to a nation. Because as that young lady that you spoke to with a young nineteen year old lead, not knowing I want John to get a grip.

Don't need to do anything. Um The people that are still here, the people I'cause we often well, we know a l a lot more about what it what you go through, not not as much as we should know. But I d I think today, as you have picked up on, even with your military record

The experiences of the people at home waiting and not knowing. Um he's insulted every single one of them in the worst imaginable way as well. Do you know something James is is when we go through whatever training we do and we go off and do our jobs, I would sooner do that than be sat at home in the UK and never not knowing. Um wow. It's it's that I I I clearly, clearly, categorically tell you that is I would not want to know to to to to the young to the mothers out there Sorry. Hey.

Sorry. They'd be the some of the proudest women in the country those months. Without a doubt, James. Without a doubt. Um do you know that I as I said to your researchers, is this? I would love these ladies now to put some form of petition together and send that letter to the M O D to demand an apology from not from the American nation but from this guy. Because let me tell you, Mr. Trump

We will be there for you, for your countrymen, but not for you, you coward. Because you could never walk in our shoes. But we walk amongst you every single day. People like you. Because he's a coward. I remember listening to the y your show yesterday and apparently he ex I think it might not have been your show, James but he apparently he excelled in a military school. Really? Really? Because I'm now starting to question that. He's not a leader. He could never be a leader.

Because being a leader is a very lonely path and when it's a very lonely path, you don't come out with the words or phrases that he's come out with. I I d you've put you've put it perfectly. You put it so well. And and I d I've got nothing to say to you. I I d uh I mean it's almost an insult to you to ask whether you've got the first idea about what he thought he was doing when he came out with these comments.

I d I d uh you know something, James, every time I listen to him now, I I don't even let him get past the f the second word. I have to turn the radio off. Fair enough. I I I do, I do. And and but I have to say this on a happier note, James. I've I and and I and I mean this'cause I love listening to L B C I've even put a I've had a new radio fitted into my truck so that I can get it in Swiss and for you

And for you, sir, personally, you're an academic god. Oh stop it. Y you you teach me. I even carry a dictionary with some of the words that you come out with. And I'm looking'em up thinking, Wow, that's a great word, I'm stealing that from you, James. You know what I mean? I would I would give anything to have your education, sir, and I was to say thank you

Thank you. Well, I d I mean that's ridiculous because people like me can't get the educations that we get if it isn't if it isn't for people like you doing what you've done for thirty Well it's been a pleasure, sir. It's been a pleasure. You take care as well. I thought you were the emotional one during this conversation. Dominic Alice, how's your headlines? This is The single most Brazilian.

and bravest person I have ever met in my life. I've always said, Will they be there if we ever needed them? And that's really the ultimate test and I'm not sure of that. I know that we would have been there or we would be there. But will they be there? And uh let's hope that that never happens. We've never needed them. We have never really asked.

anything of them. You know, they'll say they sent some troops to Afghanistan or this or that. And they did. They stayed a little back, little off the front lines. But uh we uh we've been very good to Europe and to many other countries. And you know, now under my administration that began because we had a very successful first term. That began then, but uh

I think every call we've taken today is from a person considerably braver than the man you just heard from. Not least John, who has um reached parts that other radio callers cannot reach. Just to put it mildly, glancing at my inbox. And I I sense just from that conversation that John is probably not the kind of man who will um

uh well, have much of an ego to be fed by that kind of uh reaction. But mate, you you expressed yourself so beautifully and so powerfully that I I d I I mean, d I don't do humble. You may have picked up on that over the years, but good grief, man. Uh that was that was quite incredible. And and we return to the reactions of good people, decent people, brave people and their families, brave families to those comments. Those absolutely extraordinary

I sit down at 10 o'clock and we start chatting and you listen to bits of it. You don't necessarily listen to all of it. And I feel my heart very rarely skipping a beat because the topic under discussion is so important. And so yeah, I think was so traumatic or traumatizing. And usually after an hour or two I I I'm feeling okay again. I'm like, okay, that's fine. I'm worse now. Actually I'm more emotional now than I was at ten o'clock this morning.

And that's why it's so important to talk about it. And that is I think why we stop the disassociation from trauma. sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n Look any of these men and women in the eye. Or look the people the ones that have died, you look at the people they've left behind in the eye and tell them that oh you're not going to talk and good God, if you hear anyone use the phrase Trump derangement syndrome again. Just think of John.

Nina is in Bromley. Nina, what made you pick up the phone? Um i I my son served in Afghanistan and um when he came back I'd been writing notes and I wrote a poem for him. And um he told me that it managed to put On paper. It it expressed it for him and I just wanted to share it with you, if I can read it. Go on then. I've could you know, this is a quite I mean, I I'm not gonna make light of the moment, but this is one of the only rules on this programme is no poems, Nina, but

I'm gonna break that rule, I'm gonna let you break that rule into a million pieces this morning. All right. Well I should do my best for my son to read it out to you. Okay. A moment passed in silence, but felt deafened with our tears. You tried to hide your feelings, but in your eyes I saw your fears. I never felt so helpless watching you walk away alone, a sickening feeling in my heart will my boy come home?

The silhouette of a soldier left me, the man I do not know. I can no longer protect him, just give a piece of my heart to let him go. In your voice I heard such terror, but you always stayed so brave. Where did you find the strength, my love, while you were watching your fellows fall to their graves? For six months my life was lived in a bubble, going through the motions but frozen inside. A total living nightmare, but the bubble was made up of pride.

You are now part of history. A marine held in high esteem. Never once as I cradled you as a baby, did such a hero I ever dreamed. I now realize how scared we were because the fear has gone away and to all those fallen soldiers forever we shall pray. And that was for my son. That's beautiful. And um I'm disgusted today by Donald Trump's comments and I never ring into things like this, but I was so disgusted. Well I'm glad you did ring in today and I and I I understand that this

intervention from Donald Trump has has affected people in ways that the news doesn't normally affect people and and it will have affected people like you more than the rest of us. I mean uh you know, everybody is disgusted, but you carry something that I don't think we can understand unless unless we've been there. And and and I I d you know, the the uh Anna earlier the other mother describing that

constant dread, that constant fear, every time the doorbell goes, every time there's someone at the door you just think it might be the knock, it might be the time. And and he's he's Rydyn ni wedi'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i

I insult people every day. Uh undermined, maligned, polluted, sullied. I haven't got the word to describe what he has done to people like your son and you. My son and and for every soldier that dies, uh, they're not on their own. Th there are others that are injured. There's always others that are injured for everyone that dies. And they're still living with that. But they get through it because

They know that everybody's proud of them and for what they've done. And and Donald Trump has shattered that. Uh for a lot of people. Because it's a it's it's family. I d I mean the the the f NATO troops serving alongside each other that they they are They are comrades in arms and and and their commander in chief has now insulted. Oh man. I know. Oh, thank you very much. Thank you very much. It touched an awful lot of people. There are quite a few people like Archie pointing out that we should...

try and find a way of getting it in front of Donald Trump. But between you and me, Nina, I I don't think he's got the emotional capacity to respond in any meaningful way to what you just read. I don't think it would touch the sides. No, I don't think you'd understand what half the words meant, would you? They weren't that long, were they? Well more than three letters, I think. Yes, this is true. Hey, um you take care. Thanks for that.

Thank you. Thank you. Bye bye. Thank you. It is eleven forty three, you are listening to James O'Brien on L B C. I guess rules are made to be broken, aren't they? Um I I we're expecting to hear from Downing Street imminently, possibly um be before the end of this programme. But I mean these are the moments where politicians don't have the vocabulary properly to respond to

I can't even begin to imagine how people who have been uh defending, championing, cheering for this character are gonna be processing the uh the reality of of who he is now that they presumably and this is me being naive once again, sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n um of his character for any longer, but they've managed in the past, so why wouldn't they be able to manage again? It's coming up to eleven forty four. You're listening to James O'Brien on LBC. I am

I I I I mean it's hard to imagine talking about anything else, but I do want to catch up with the situation on the ground in Minneapolis. Emily Maitlis, our friend and colleague, is just back. from there, just back from Minnesota, and she'll be able to give um as a quick heads up well not even a quick heads up, a proper heads up on what is actually unfolding now on the streets of the United States of America because you can't separate the two.

If Donald Trump is prepared to treat the memories of dead British soldiers, Danish, French, German, but this is a British radio station, so we'll focus on the British soldiers for now. If he is prepared to treat their memories like that, How on earth is he prepared to treat people in his own country who are still living? And I think you're going to be quite shocked by some of the answers to that question that Emily will provide after this.

It is eleven forty seven. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC where we turn our attention next to events in the United States of America as opposed to events Um, Emily Maitlis, who you well, she doesn't really need any introduction, but she's written for the New World newspaper, which along with Private Eye, are the the only two publications that I um

I pay actual money to subscribe to and and they drop through my letterbox. Um and and with increasing importance because they both chronicle the madness that Um some people are either looking away from or failing to properly record. And and Emily is is back. Uh, from the United States of America, where she has been looking at the the reality on the ground. And one of the things I enjoyed about your article, Emily, if I if I may refer to it, was was the reminder.

to those of us of a of a certain disposition not to fall into the liberal trap. Barack Obama oversaw more deportations than any other US President. As you remind us, the figure is north of three million. So with that in in in the background, what did you discover on on this trip? We've been covering the story um pretty comprehensively since Trump came back into power last January. But it's much harder, I think, to get a sense From here.

of what is really happening on the ground. So we decided that um the newsagents team just wanted to to be out. We didn't know what we were going to find. We didn't know

frankly, that we would find anything. But it felt important to just be on the ground, talking to people inside communities. And as you say, US President after US President has made deportation quite a a sort of main uh plank of their campaigns, Barack Obama is one of the highest his administration deported the highest number of uh illegal immigrants when he was in power, as you say north of three million. But what we found and it takes you right back to uh Trump

Republican convention in twenty twenty four when he became nominated. He started putting on all the chairs these signs that said mass deportation now and people were literally picking them up and waving them. And I think that was a turning point because this was no longer about criminals, which he'd started by saying, you know, we need to d deport the rapists and the criminals and the killers and the murderers. and it was no longer even about

people who had tried to scan the system or come in through the back door or hadn't been invited in or had b been in illegally. It was People who were in the system. It was people who were living in America for decades, who had been part of communities, who had actually gone through the system to apply for citizenship and were working in most cases, in the vast majority of cases, legally.

And this is what we found is actually happening now on the streets. Minneapolis has been targeted because it's a very blue state, because Trump is sort of latching on to its past, not least its connections with the George Floyd murder, and also with a very tangible fraud scandal that has been going on, that is going through the courts in in Minneapolis. And so he has essentially zoned in, made this um the sort of centre of his crosshairs. And what we found there

were communities who are having the hearts ripped out of them, quite frankly. There are kids coming home from schools who find one or other parent has disappeared. There are people wandering round parking lots. Elderly people finding their son's car and not knowing where their son is. There are people who are appearing in shackles. about to board deportation flights, dark flights.

still wearing an Amazon union of their morning's work or a construction high viz vest of their morning's work. In other words, what I'm trying to explain here is there is no due process going on. It is not about the deportation per se. It is about the fact that these are people who in many, many cases, were legitimately legally in the United States. and who have been removed in shackles on these dark flights.

with no due process. There is there is no way that somebody would still be in their uniform in the morning if they'd actually gone through a process with a lawyer, with an exchange of letters, with somebody to take them through the legal process. The fact of this happening so quickly is what tells us. Administration, quite frankly, is not comfortable with doing things above board.

And just to try and put this in context because y y I can imagine your listeners and they'll be pushing back and they'll be saying, Well, come on, you know, if these people shouldn't be in the country, we should get them out. They should be got out. Isn't that what should be happening and and if they if they stood in a campaign to remove people from America and that's what people want, then what's so wrong? And I'll tell you what's wrong. We were with um

A guy who describes himself as a plane spotter. I mean, that that is where he where he approaches this story from. He's passionate about planes. He goes to Minneapolis St Paul's airport the whole time. And he knows that every Wednesday, every Wednesday in the past, there used to be a deportation flight. And he would monitor it and he would see that and he would look at it along with other flights. And then one day, one day last year The deportation flights on a Wednesday stopped.

They dried up and they were removed from the schedule round about April or May of last year. And that was when he got interested because he said if the deportation flights are now being removed from the schedule, if there is less transparency What is happening? And so he and his group of sort of plain spotter it's a crowdsource. They call themselves

uh MN fifty fifty one, the sort of that they essentially monitor from the skies all the planes coming in and landing through US airspace to try and get a sense of the picture. And he has built up this picture. And he and his cohort are monitoring every single plane that leaves Minneapolis St Paul. Any plane that leaves Minnesota, essentially the state.

because they are being taken to detention centres in El Paso, detention centres in Nebraska, and because there are people watching the El Paso plane leave, and because there is Nick Benson watching the El Paso plane come in exactly two hours and twenty minutes later.

And these planes do not exist on any aviation schedule. There is nothing written down. There is no place that you can go and say, Oh, can I just check what time the deportation flight's coming in? Oh can I just check that what's on that? Why is there no transparency and more regularity? And so for him and I think for us that was the question.

yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw then you you have to put that in the context of, well, this is what administrations do and this is what American people voted for. When those planes disappear from the schedule and when the number ramps up and Nick has now counted uh twenty seven flights in January of this year alone. That is

more than two thousand people have been deported since January of this year alone from one airport in one state in the United States. Um and uh just a stress some of the points you've made th thanks to Nick. He he's spoken also of of uh airport employees being picked up, which means people who have been vetted and and are fit and suitable to work. while at work or on their way home from work or on the school run or or going about their legal business.

scooped up and and stuck on these planes and removed from the country with, as you say, no record, no transparency, no accountability. How I mean there's two questions, isn't there? There's always two questions. How aware yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r I think um if you had been living in New York or California or actually many of the southern states where none of this was particularly visible, you would have been sort of

fine with it until now. You would have assumed that he was carrying out an election pledge To remove killers, rapists, murderers, drug addicts from the streets of America and you would have said, Well, that's what the American people voted for. That is no longer what is happening. He is

decimating communities. He is targeting immigrant communities. And as I say, there is no legal redress. And the point you just made is very important. If you have a job in an airport, If you are working on the TSA side, on the high security side. You have gone through the system. You have shown your papers. You have proved that you are allowed to work in places of high security. The fact that even airport employees

Are finding themselves now on the other side, shackled in manacles. There are manacles on these people as they are led up the stairs to deportation flight. The fact that even these people are disappearing, the fact that you will go to, for example, the Mecado Central, the sort of central Latino market neighbourhood, and find that of the forty two businesses that used to be up and operating and alive and swinging

thirty five of them no longer dare open their doors because people don't want to come to work in case they are pulled from their places of work and people don't want to shop there because they don't want to be targeted as part of the Latino community. So we are seeing something now which is So arbitrary. I mean I say arbitrary but clearly it's it's It's it's not arbitrary in the way that it is targeting certain groups of immigrant communities, but it is so um mindlessly cruel. Actually.

what is going on. There is no reason you would have to take somebody's son without telling their parents. There is no reason you'd have to use a five year old child to get in the house. To their father. There is no reason. If you believed in the legality and the sense of what you were doing, you wouldn't have to hide this stuff.

And so I mean it's it's in danger of becoming a cliche, but it doesn't mean it's not true. The the cruelty is the point now. The cruelty is the point. The cruelty is the point.

Which brings us and and I I appreciate this isn't what what what you've been addressing uh on this trip, because it hadn't happened, but the comments Donald Trump has made yesterday about NATO and about Is there any pattern, Emily? You spend even longer looking at this stuff than I do. Is there any method in this madness? Do we see these two events? They're hideous.

business unfolding across America, but particularly in Minneapolis. And and the hideous comments that Donald Trump made yesterday, are they are they part of the same piece? Or or are we just chronicling um outbursts of aberration and and outrage? Um, well I wanna start by saying I was really moved by Nina's call and her um home to her son. Yeah. And I think it's quite easy for us as commentators to um

you know, get hyperbolic about how crazy and how demented and how um cruel, you know, the man in the centre of this is. But actually, um Nina's you know, such a sort of clear example of the of what happens when it touches people's lives. And I think that's what I would say um links the two stories. That most of the time, you know, you listen to the rambling uh Davos speech.

And you just think this is a rambling devil speech, you know, it's kind of there is no beginning and there's no end and there's no real sense. And I think We as journalists have to be really careful that we don't jump up and down and say, Oh, the world is changing. Oh, this is this, oh this is terrible. I I don't think it's actually what he says. I think it's the ramification.

of what he says, on the actions that other people take. So for example, it's now the actions that the ICE agents are taking in Minneapolis, you know, in his honour, you know, in the same way that people an assassination attempt and his ear was bandaged. There is this sort of weird sense of fealty and to prove your love to the president you have to carry out more of what he says. And you have the the mothers, the parents at the end of those comments who are just left picking up the pieces.

And I think it's kind of a lesson for us, which is, you know, we are so desperate to preserve this. American alliance and so desperate to believe in the special relationship. God, how long have we been banging on about the special relationship for? But really, what's at the bottom of it?

Because if he's gonna mangle history, if you're gonna send out your troops, if you are going to come to the support and obviously he doesn't speak for most Americans. He he he he doesn't speak I I don't think for the vast majority who understand exactly what part of

British and and and NATO soldiers and troops played uh in Afghanistan and Iraq and and in, you know, other conflicts that conflicts that we've we've been through together. But if he mangles history to such a point where he just kind of makes you wish you hadn't even bothered, then isn't it gonna make everyone think about where the relationship is now, what we do now? And that's a question that Keostama will hopefully be um addressing sooner rather than later.

Emily, thank you. Emily Maitlis of the News Agents, recently returned, as you heard, from Minneapolis. You can hear that episode, that investigation, and indeed those interviews on the LBC app or the Global Player. But you should really be listening to the news agents every day anyway. You are currently listening to James O'Brien.

on LBC and the time is twelve oh two. It is six minutes after twelve. You are listening to James O'Brien on LBC. Well we we we we won't be looking away from the comments that Donald Trump made yesterday, even as we have that Mae'n rhaid i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd

that we have to try not to fall into the trap of talking about the latest disgusting thing he's done because it dilutes the impact of the last disgusting thing he did. And it doesn't even have to be disgusting, it can be ridiculous. That's the other thing I said to you twenty six hours ago was about the relationship between horror and hilarity. He veers from the hilarious because he's such an idiot to the horrific because he's such a monster.

And and that's where we are. So on it's Friday today, right? So on Wednesday he he he he chickened out of the Greenland threats. He he was um forced to by European Unity and Canadian leadership from Mark Carney. It became clear that he wasn't going to be able to bully his way into the position that he thought or he sought to bully his way into.

Which means that on Thursday we should have been dedicating all of our attention to the absurdity of Donald Trump's Greenland mission. Or no, because it wasn't absurd until it failed. And it only failed because people like Keir Starmer And Mark Carney and Emmanuel Macron and others changed tactics. They they fur their resolve firmed, they girded their loins. But we weren't talking about that on Thursday, because he launched his board of peace, about which you may never hear another word.

Ah, you probably will, but it's not beyond the realms of possibility that you will never hear another word about it because it will fail, or at least it's constitution of war criminals and genocide apologists or or genocide architects. its constitution of um uh war criminals and genocide architects will render it unconscionable for for decent leaders. Not necessarily, not necessarily, but it it hopefully will.

And Um and it was essentially announced and undertaken on the stage in Davos only to ensure that people were not dedicating all of their bandwidth, that the media wasn't dedicating all of its news. to the failure of his Greenland bid, to the to the cowardice and the climb down and the mother of all um uh uh chicken demonstrations that Donald Trump had undertaken the previous day. But we're not talking about the Border Peace today because we're talking about his insult to

Well, the families of every single caller I've taken so far, and thousands, countless more listening. And and everybody who is grateful for their service, everybody who is grateful for their potential sacrifice, everybody who understands the importance of NATO, let alone people who have contributed to its um

uh uh uh uh existence and and its deployment only once under the requirements of Article five, um which is where every signatory joins forces to to fight a common enemy. And the only country that's ever Invoked Article five is the United States of America and the commander in chief of their armed forces has just insulted everybody else. I mean this is a moment of such unbelievable madness. But it also highlights that other thing I talked about.

Which is the difficulty of of being sufficiently disgusted, not just through disassociation, but through drowning. Drowning in it now. Drowning in it.

But we'll continue. And I want to move the conversation, perhaps I don't have to, you could continue simply to react to what Donald Trump has said and done and I may, because I appreciate not everybody listens for the whole three hours, I may remind you of what he's said and done. shortly. Um but but I'm interested also in the relationship with NATO that you as a soldier, past or present, have. What what does it mean to be a member of a NATO force?

I think it was James Blunt, wasn't it, who was talking to me on full disclosure about his um his role in I th was it in Afghanistan? I can't remember, but I remember him talking to me about NATO in a way that I hadn't really heard before.'Cause I always think about the British army British, but you're not.

You're there as in Afghanistan, you're there as a member of NATO. What does that mean? What what is the sense of fellowship with other NATO countries, other NATO personnel? Just give the rest of us a bit of a lesson if you can. on what what this does to the very concept of NATO itself and the fellow feeling that you have between European and and American and Canadian troops.

Uh and if you can do that 0345-6060973. Um I uh Blunt was in Bosnia, wasn't he? Blunt was in the former Yugoslavia, not not in the not in the Middle East, my bad. Um let's go to Jeff, who's in Lille in France. Jeff, what would you like to say?

Hi, James. First time, so um but I couldn't speak to you straight away'cause I uh it really upset me what I heard. I was driving, I was going to work I actually got into work and um I ha was got this got my phone like connected to you connected to L B C and I was and I heard it and I just cracked uh I had to walk out of work and they sort of like chased me down and saying, What's my and I I couldn't I couldn't speak to them. I couldn't speak to them. Um, just really, really upset me and

Uh just before I actually tell you what's what I feel oh my my my my thing. Um Nina, uh was it Nina who said that poem? I am glad I didn't come on straight away after her'cause I cracked, I cracked. Why do you think I went to the news quicker than ever, Jeff? I cracked, I cracked I really cracked. Uh it was a it was beautiful. Um

One of the big poems I've ever heard, um, really. I I've heard a couple others but that really hit a nerve as well. So That was so real, wasn't it? Yeah, it's really real. Um anyway, my my thing, um There is a book called Tech State Red. I think it was written well, it was written by a guy called Colonel Richard Kemp. And um I think it's Chris Hughes or Chris Hayes, I can't remember exactly. Now, in that book it's about um the tour of duty they did in uh in the to the kip um the

'cause I mean France, I'm saying French now. And a group of sp That's why I listen to your road'cause I think English I've listened to English for a while. Uh but anyway there's a there's a um uh there's this They they're talking about the tour of um duty in uh Afghanistan. Yeah. Now on page I think it's page.

seven or is it s uh page ten or eleven, I can't remember exactly an another couple of three or four pages afterwards. My son's in it. Okay. Uh they were speaking me he was speaking about my son. And I can't read all the book. I can't read all of it. I've read uh parts of it but as soon as I get into it, it brings me back to my son and I get a panic attack and I have to put the book down. Uh I can't read it anymore. Um

'Cause he did a tour of duty in Afghanistan and he went when he went, he you know, he was seventeen, eighteen when he went. When he came back he was a totally different person. Totally different person. Um in his gr in his in his group during the first Well there was a guy called um private uh Chris Gray um who was the first

When I heard what Trump had said, so I'm not even gonna call him president, I just say Trump. I just he doesn't deserve being called president. Um I Uh I've I mean I've been listening to lots of other stuff was happening and I just think yeah the man he you know what he's like.

Y i i that's him and he's gonna get away with it because nobody will pull him pull him up on it. The the m the press seems to just think you know, well they they're almost like scared of him, they just won't say nothing about it. This for me was a bridge too far for me. was way, way, way, way too far for me. Um you you Y how can you how how c a man who dodged his own Service m uh um serv uh traffic.

because of spurs on his feet, uh, as he said. Allegedly uh it's allegedly Yeah, because you know the man, you you if he was somebody who was like uh yeah you could say okay maybe but no, you know the man so you you know alleged you can say allegedly. Uh you come out with a comment like that. I mean how it's not even disgraceful, it's not even uh appalling, it's not even it's beyond, beyond, beyond that. It's just

Uh well I when I first heard it I I I was in the I got into work and I just cracked. I had to go in the dark room or go downstairs where I was where my office is and just Why why why why did it hit you so hard? Because of my son. Because well what happened was is my my son was in the army um about eighteen, nineteen years I think. Yeah. And he He really loved the army. And he... He g was gonna he he he wanted to move he was in I'll I'll say this much. He wanted to do the s he was in a s he was a

a s a sniper. Right. In the snipers corps. And he was going well in that, but he wanted to go further. And I think I know where he where he wanted to go, but I'm not going to say now that No no no you say no. Don't say anything you're uncomfortable with. But uh but um um he he lost his way and somehow took his own life. After after his service. While yeah, whilst he was on duty. And so

Sorry, I'll forward, go forward, go away. Hey, hey, hey, hey, take hey. It's all fine. Well I I I I mean this moment in your life is fine. And and we're we've we've got all the space and all the time that you need. Or or none at all. Or or or or you know, if you want to go and have a cup of tea that's fine. I'm so sorry to hear that. But now I'm it's I'm getting over well not I never you never get over it. You never get over it. Anyway it happens and

to to to see his o his colleagues at his at his funeral and'cause was he co it was on Covid when he when it happened um about four years uh four years four and a half years ago. And I've never seen so many people at a funeral in their uniforms uh celebrating m my son's life and I that I said that but the bo that poem what um um Nina read, it was like it just brought it all back again'cause I heard poems and poems and it was like, Oh so it all hit home

Um and so when I hear this man saying we weren't there, it's like Really? Really? Do you do you uh you got you have how many sons have you got? You've got three sons, I mean, you know, w wha how would you feel if one of your sons was uh you know, was I don't think he can do that. I think that's empathy. I think that involves being able to imagine being someone else than yourself. And I don't think he can do it. And to be honest... I I d I don't know I d I mean the love you have for your son.

Is so clear to everybody listening to this. But not all people are capable of feeling love like that, Jeff. Well, it's not just I mean, as I said, um um when my son was telling me about um um his friend, um Chris uh was it Chris Gray? Um uh i it it's I thought that could been that could have been my son. And so Yeah, he he I said I read the I I couldn't I can't read all the book because uh the bits when I read the bits I've read and then when they they're saying that

He was lifting his head up the wall and I was letting off a couple of rounds and the guy said, you know, brave lad, and was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I know my son, you know. just came came too close to home for me but when I hear this it's just that I mean see I've heard him talk lots of s rubbish in his life, Trump. It's just just rubbish, just rubbish and there's rubbish, isn't it? Yeah. But yeah but this

hit home for me. Hit home. And I do think bel I'm sorry, I uh I I I believe m my personal thing feeling is that he had to back down. And I also believe that he's on the military um um uh personnel. Some of them said, No, we're not gonna go that that far. It's just that's too far because NATO is part of um they are part of NATO. Yes, of course. It's not just i Great Britain.

member taking up arms against another NATO member. Yeah, and I don't think the the US military would have gone that far. I really don't think they would have gone that far. And so I think basically it was like No, two finger salute at uh the rest of us at that at Europe the European'cause he obviously the man who can't

deals uh with d deals um problems like that. So it's just I think lashing out, isn't he just? Just lashing out. It was la it's a lash out, you know, you know you know you guys didn't do nothing, you know. It's like seriously? Were you there? Yeah. What do you know about it? You don't know nothing about it.

And I just oh God I really would like to get him in a dark room. Um, I think that'd be a queue of of I think that'd be quite a long queue at the moment. I really do. I don't know why I'd be fighting to get to that front. I can't s uh I just it just I don't wanna um I don't I I don't wanna go yet. I d I don't want you to go yet. I I w I want I want I want to hear you feeling a bit

Better before we say goodbye. Do you know what I mean? I have his picture on my my c my um cabinet before I go out the front door. And every day I look at it, I uh I touch it, I I'm I I say goodbye. And every now and again I have my moment and I will say, Okay, right, I'm ready, let's go. Uh but it there's doesn't a there's not a day that doesn't go, I don't think about it.

Of course there isn't. You honour his memory, Jeff. You really do. Yeah, it's just I but I I try to honour ev all of them. It's not just him. It wasn't in actually it didn't happen in Afghanistan at the time, but all the others as well, you just Yeah, my heart goes out to every single one, every single parent because I am one of them. I uh wasn't in wasn't in. Yeah, he came back a different person. I knew he was. Uh we we talked and we laughed and joked and two days um I spoke to him the Sunday.

on a phone call and uh he sent me some photos of a s of a family party that he was at and I said, Okay, thanks for that, Matt and uh moved on from there and uh Next thing I know, on Tuesday, I got a phone call. My son is dead. And that was... Oh yeah, I've I thought I'd brace myself for if he was in if he was doing tour of duty and it happened. Yeah, okay, uh of course I okay, well but that was just like out of the blue, just And it was just uh and at work as well it's like oh

Hard, hard. Hard. It was very, very hard. Of course it was, but as I say, I wish I had more powerful words or more helpful words for you, but you do you do honour his memory and and everybody listening to this knows. what you know and um I I uh and and everybody shares your utter revulsion at what this man, this so called man has said about

All of his comrades and and uh past and present, live living and and no longer with us, Jeff. Yeah, he's just uh he's he's just uh just my own two pence worth. I know this is slightly better to be in trade. Part of the problem with him is oh, especially with this Epstein file, I do not think it's all about

The the d the atrocity what Epstein did. I mean we all know what he did. I'm not even gonna go into that part of it. But we n I don't think it's all about that with Trump. I think it's the dirty money. I really do think it's the dirty money. I I just think him and tr him and Putin has got something they got s he was doing something because a lot of the they the Russian oligarchs they used to They they muck more their money. And I'm sure Trump has got something to do with that.

Are you all right? No we're not we're gonna find out about it and I really think that's part of it. That's part of it because it's a lot of it. A lot of love for you personally coming in, Jeff, from my listeners. An awful lot of love. Oh, I can't do that. You touched a lot of her people and myself included, actually. I'm so so so sorry for your loss. You just carry on.

You just carry on. Are you alright? Yeah, I'm alright. Are you sure? Yeah, I'm fine. Thanks, Jane. Stay soon, take care. God bless you. Um if if you're affected by the issue That Jeff just talked about. I should remind you the Samaritans are available twenty four hours a day on one one six one two three. It's twelve twenty three.

It's twenty five minutes after twelve and you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC where we continue to collect responses to Donald Trump's hideous comments about NATO and specifically I think about overnight that the current commander in chief of the United States forces doesn't really think that they did anything in Afghanistan. Um they stayed away from the front line.

Um Natasha Clarke is with me, LBC's political editor, because the government the Prime Minister's office has, as you would expect, responded to this moment in um in in in fairly robust terms. Yn yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw, yw.

Um and in the last few minutes we've just been hearing from Downing Street they say that Donald Trump was wrong to claim that NATO forces stayed away from the front line in Afghanistan. The PM's official spokesperson

The president was wrong to diminish the role of NATO troops, including British forces, in Afghanistan following the nine eleven attacks on the US. Article five of the NATO treaty was evoked for the first time. British forces served alongside American and other Allied troops in sustained combat operations. And of course they make the point that four hundred and fifty seven British service personnel lost their lives in Afghanistan and many more were wounded, many hundred

suffered the life changing injuries from their service alongside the US and our allies in Afghanistan. So I don't think you really could have it any stronger than Downing Street telling Donald Trump telling the White House. They are wrong. This is just misinformed, it is ill informed, it is untrue. It reminds me of of when we spoke before about the the remarks that J. D. Vance spoke about troops. So

clearly there is something uh incredibly ill informed about the heart of White House thinking about what they believe that other NATO allies and other troops um did uh to help them out in in in wars gone by. Uh and number ten say the sacrifice and that of other ATO forces was made in the service of collective security and in response to an attack on our ally. We are incredibly proud of our armed forces. Their service and sacrifice will never

be forgotten. So really coming out swinging. We've also been hearing this morning from our own uh armed forces Minister El Khan. Well Afghanistan, frankly, this is utterly ridiculous. Many courageous and honourable service personnel from many nations fought on the front line. Many fought way beyond it. I'd serve five tours in Afghanistan. Many alongside my American colleagues we shed blood.

Sweat and tears together and not everybody came home. These are bonds I think forged in fire, protecting US or shared interests, but actually protecting democracy overall. And I'd suggest whoever believes these comments, come have a whiskey with me. my colleagues, their families, and importantly the families of those that have made the ultimate sacrifice.

for both of our nations. It's also worth reminding everyone here in World War II, more British troops landed on D-Day than any other nation. It was an allied response, an united we conquer. Now some advice for anyone who may be listening. There are two great sayings worth remembering. Number one, there is only one worse thing than working with allies. That is working without them.

He posted that message saying the UK served on the front line in Afghanistan and often way beyond it. Very powerful words. Very strong. Um I I mean the problem with Trump of course. The problem that we have is it's it's everything he does, however vile, is here today, gone tomorrow.

The Prime Minister to raise this next time he he he speaks to the President? And and might we expect the Prime Minister to go further than a than an official statement from Downing Street, speaking I mean it's his words.

uh or it uh on his behalf. But would we expect an at some sort of address or some sort of um there's no precedent is there for the moment like this. No. Because it's our greatest ally committing the greatest insult. Yeah, and you wouldn't have expected this this statement to come and actually I feel like this week Downing Street has turned a bit of a corner in in their relationship with Trump, you know.

Yn ymwneud â chagos ymwneud â chagos ymwneud â chagos ymwneud â chagos ymwneud â chagos ymwneud â chagos ymwneud â chagos ymwneud â chagos ymwneud â chagos ymwneud â chagos ymwneud â chagos ymwneud â chagos where the president is wrong on this and calling the president wrong Especially for for a man child like that who responds so petulantly to any pushback and critical.

he is walked through as well as he is wrong. Um and they have done that today and this week for the first time. I don't imagine the Prime Minister will come out and make a statement. He probably won't want to make the big statement. I think he's probably got his ministers to really do the heavy lifting here for him and he've got he's got his spokesperson to to say what he thinks. I mean you the the defence would be that when you are in power you have to be mindful of

Um Eb Davy for example would be free to absolutely go in with pardon the metaphor with all guns blazing at a moment like this and I expect he probably will if if if not next Wednesday and PMQs then sooner. Yeah I imagine um opposition parties as you would you would hope.

at least would would would get behind sort of Britain in this sort of moment where you'd expect your opposition leaders to really band together. But yes, uh Davy will probably go further and and will will really, really criticise. Um, Donald Trump, the one man we haven't heard from today, Nigel Farage. He's not said anything about this, which you would expect this to be somebody. Have you? Yeah. Let's hear it. Here's Matt Hewitt with your headline.

It is twenty five minutes to one and it is um uh uh uh uh Simon Mark's time actually. I I'm a bit discombobulant just like you are. I bet you I mean Crikey, do you wanna swap? ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud. When you are reminded of the reason why we're having these conversations, um I I I I d I I don't know quite what the words would be to describe.

how many of us are feeling today as a consequence of Donald Trump's latest aberration and once again I find my own vocabulary, which John in Switzerland was so kind about earlier, It's just not up to the task of articulating some of the feelings that you and I are sharing today. Um

Simon, welcome. We should probably begin with these comments. W w do they make big news in in in the United States, these heinous and egregious insults against People who gave up their lives in in in service to a mission that was called by the Commander in Chief of of the United States? Well, they're certainly not making uh news in the United States, James, to the extent that they are obviously making news on your side of the Atlantic and also in Canada as well.

uh because remember this is the week in which Mark Carney officially consigned the transatlantic alliance to the ash heap uh of history based on Donald Trump's actions. I I would make the point that this is not an aberration by President Donald Trump. to put this set uh to put these remarks into context. to put the trashing of the reputation of British service personnel who were slain in Afghanistan alongside 159 Canadians.

Forty-four Danes, the highest per capita fatality rate in Afghanistan was suffered by Denmark. To put all of this into its broader context. we are at the end of a week in which Donald Trump and his top lieutenant removed the last vestiges of their mark. They are not hiding their loathing of Europe, everything that it stands for, its leaders. its uh economic position, and they are absolutely determined that not only is Europe now risking, as Donald Trump put it in his speech in i in Davos, death.

or as the National Security Strategy here calls it, civilizational erasure. They insist that the only thing that is going to save Europe is when the voters of Europe realize that their salvation lies in the hands of what the Trump administration refers to as patriotic European party. The Treasury Secretary Scott Bassent has been giving voice to this again.

uh in an interview that has just been posted by uh the website Politico, essentially saying Europeans need to look at the tremendous success that Donald Trump is having rebuilding America. closing its borders, ending mass migration, and they need to understand that the future for them lies in embracing similar policies. So this is not a coincidental swipe. uh at the sacrifice that was made by uh over 450 British families.

in Afghanistan. This goes to the absolute heart Of US government official policy now towards Europe, which is constantly to undermine the Keir Starmer's, the Emanuel Macron's, the Friedrich Merzes, all of them. And to boost the Nigel Farage's, the Marine Le Pen's, uh the Jordan Bardellas, uh the AFD leadership in Germany. That is what is driving this policy, and that is why it is so important.

to dwell at the end of this week on what Canada has done and on what Volodymyr Zelensky did last night in Davos. Both Mark Carney and Volodymyr Zelensky saying this week. The party is over. There can no longer be any pretense of an ability to work with this president and this America. And when you ask about what people are seeing on American television. Uh Fox News last night and Donald Trump has reposted this and pinned it to the top of his truth social media account.

presented a seven and a half minute uh r I won't even call it a report. I mean um homage. To President Trump in Davos. That completely misrepresents what took place there and tells the audience that Donald Trump is returning to the United States as a conquering hero who has wiped the leaders noses of Europe uh in it, in Davos, and has shown them what uh effective parenting

uh is all about. So that's the reality that's going into millions of American homes, the largest, uh, most successful news channel in the United States. uh basically portraying Donald Trump as a conquering hero as he flew back from Davos last night, while we all think, you know, he climbed down, he completely caved on the issue of Greenland and committed this absolute shameless slander. uh against the servicemen and women of the UK and other European and indeed uh Canadian armed forces.

I I did you know, I thought I was incapable of being surprised by the events of the last twenty four hours. I I I thought I was across them, but so you're basically talking about Uh propaganda. Uh entirely false propaganda being punted by Rupert Murdoch's television station in in the United States of America that completely contradicts the evidence of our own eyes and ears.

Yes. I mean uh I mean e everything about it. I'm actually gonna run a whole chunk of this tonight on uh American Week during Tom Swarbrick's programme, but everything about the presentation of this. is alternative facts. And and it's not just what's going on on Fox James, it's what is tumbling from the president's mouth. It has been hard this week. to identify a single truth. That actually emerged from the President's mouth.

I mean, back in the first term, alternative facts were kind of vying with real facts in the president's vocabulary and it was always very uncomfortable. The real facts have absolutely evaporated now from Donald Trump's speeches. We saw that rambling appearance on the first anniversary of his uh return to the Oval Office at the White House. We then saw the speech in Davos. Both of those appearances absolutely littered.

with falsehoods, including even the claim that Greenland is part of North America. It's our territory. A completely false telling. Of the history of Greenland during the Second World War, in which Donald Trump appears to have convinced himself that President Trump uh that the United States owned Greenland by the time the Second World War was over, and then made a mistake

and granted it back to Denmark, and he's simply trying to correct that historical mistake. But the lies go way beyond that in the Davos speech. He talked about how the Chinese were terrific at making windmills, building windmills, and selling them to European nations. But you don't find any windmill farms in China itself.

In fact, China produces three times more energy through wind and windmill farms than the United States of America. On Air Force One last night, he was talking about Americans 401k retirement fund. Uh and he was claiming that during the last year they had risen between 80 and 90%, and actually claimed that in some cases they had risen by 100%. The actual number, the average increase in an American's 401k retirement fund since John Donald Trump returned to the White House?

Uh uh 9.6%. So so so there are no facts. There are simply no facts. That are being presented by him, uh, that are being presented by his White House, by men like Scott Bescent, the Treasury Secretary, Howard Lutnick, the Commerce Secretary, who did not even try to conceal. their disdain and hostility towards Mark Carney, towards European governments in Davos this week, and there are certainly no facts uh emanating uh from the plethora.

Of propaganda outlets now in the United States that tell Americans that Donald Trump is the greatest president this country has ever known. I I mean it it it is again I I I I worry about Groundhog Day for people listening, but uh it it is almost impossible to grasp the scale of what has already happened and And what is underway. But um I I I suppose we should reflect upon the fact that it didn't have to be like this.

uh, Jack Smith, um, former special counsel to the Justice Department and investigating Donald Trump's attempts to steal Asked him um uh uh uh about uh some of the stuff that was motivating that investigation and um and this was his response. In terms of the grand jury testimony that's now been released, uh the fact that uh Donald Trump, according to Senator Graham, would believe that Martian stole the election, what does that tell you about Trump's state of mind?

Uh that that statement is consistent with what we found in our investigation in that uh Our investigation revealed that Donald Trump was not looking for honest answers about whether uh there was fraud in the election. He was looking for ways to stay in power. And when people told him uh things

that conflicted with him staying in power, he rejected them. Or he chose not even to contact people like that who would know if the election was done properly in the state. On the other hand, when individuals uh would say things that would allow him to stay in power no matter how fantastical uh he would latch on to those. That pattern uh over time we felt was powerful evidence that he in fact uh knew that the fraud claims he was making uh were false.

Um it feels like a dispatch from a different universe now. I was just gonna say it feels like an archaeological relic. I mean, and not just Mr Smith, but the entire process, the entire proceeding. Uh and I mean y y you know, I mean Jack Smith is I think personally he said last night, he said yesterday in testimony that he believes that he is personally at risk of being indicted by the Department of Justice because President Trump has told

the Attorney General Pam Bondy to go after him. I I mean I think that Jack Smith is a complicated figure for many Americans uh because it is hard to argue that the Merrick Garland run Department of Justice under President Joe Biden was entirely pure as the driven snow. Clearly it was nothing compared to uh the mire that Donald Trump has created at the Department of Justice.

uh by piercing and terminating its traditional but not constitutionally guaranteed independence. But listening to that and watching it yesterday, uh, you know, It's what we all know. Donald Trump absolutely Yeah. You and I like that point about Merrick Garland because he e even with partisanship and and politiquing, there was once, not long ago, ground upon which all people could agree. There were

behaviours or transgressions that would bring uh y united condemnation and it's hard to forget I beg your pardon, it's easy to forget that that that January the sixth did that. I mean you know, people who are now bending the knee for Donald Trump the impact of the pardons that Trump began to enact before he'd even got his um backside through the door of the White House for the second time.

The people the the people who assaulted police officers and were convicted after trial Uh in my view and I think in the view of the judges who sentenced them to prison are dangerous to their community. Um as you've mentioned, some of these people have already uh committed crimes against the people who are not a very strong. their communities again and I think all of us, if we're reasonable, know that there's going to be more crimes committed by these people uh in the future.

Uh I do not understand why you would mass pardon people who assaulted police officers. I don't get it. I never will. Um the spell's not gonna break, is it? No, absolutely not. I mean we're on an we're on an inevitable trajectory here. Um a and and i you know, while it does sound like Groundhog Day i it's also changing. It's getting worse. It's advancing. Yeah, of course. And we're yeah, we're moving further and further away. uh from any possibility of reverting

to the America that we all grew up knowing. Um y you know, I mean, even in the space of a week, James, remember I think it was back on Monday, uh we were talking about the Prime Minister saying that he wanted to have a calm discussion with President Trump, that uh we need to find a solution over Greenland that is rooted in partnership, facts, mutual uh respect. a and alliances. I mean all of that's gone out of the window in ninety six hours.

Uh so we're just moving down an absolutely devastating uh dark tunnel with not a chink of light at the end of it, again on Air Force One last night. He started musing right at the end of his exchange with reporters about the midterm elections in November. He said a couple of times he didn't say this last night, but he's already said a couple of times

I don't even know why we have to have elections in November. Then the White House says that's facetious. He's joking. Last night was the beginning of a new narrative. He started saying Presidents always lose midterm elections. Only twice in fifty years, he claims, uh has a president ever won a midterm election, which of course is a misunderstanding anyway, because presidents aren't running.

in midterm elections. They are really a referendum on a president's performance, but that's the only link to the president. But there's something percolating away in the back of his mind about these midterm elections. He said last night you'd have to get a psychiatrist to come and explain why.

you know, people turn against a governing party in midterm elections. We've got to watch that space'cause there's something going on. And we will rely upon you to to to keep that watching brief for us. Simon Marks joining Tom Swalbrick later today with even more detail. On what has been going on during this um well I said it at the top of the show, didn't it? If you didn't understand why it's a Chinese curse to wish upon people that they lived in interesting times, well you know now.

Twelve fifty three is the time. Full disclosure is back this week and it's uh it's a fascinating interview with a chap called Ruckka Bregman, who you might think you don't know but you do. Um, he's the chap who was at Davos a few years ago railing against all the billionaires arriving in private jets but failing to talk at all about tax avoidance. And more recently of course he gave

The wreath lecture which the BBC in their wisdom elected to censor. His new book, Moral Ambition, is is something of a masterpiece. It also probably gets filed under self help book. Here is a little taste of our conversation. Most people are pretty decent, but power corrupt.

So if we go back all the way to the age of the nomadic unto gatherers, there's so much evidence now, both from anthropology and from archaeology, that warfare is a recent invention, that it didn't exist for most of human history. These societies were way more egalitarian. and that the great mistake, as Jean Jacques Rousseau famously argued in in what is it, the eighteenth century, was that

Some day people settled down and said, You know, this piece of land, that's mine. And Rousseau famously wrote, Like, that's the moment when we should all have said, like, don't believe this idiot, right? Uh that was the agricultural revolution, the Neolithic Revolution. Again, h there's consensus now that that made life much worse for the vast majority of people, up until only a very short time ago. with uh the industrial revolution, obviously and the extraordinary growth of wealth that

slowly started to trickle down since the late nineteenth century. Also gave us horrific wars, obviously. So the jury is still out on whether the Industrial Revolution was a good thing. But that is basically how I look at the whole shape of human history. Deep down humans are fundamentally cooperative. They're not saints, not at all. They they definitely have a dark side as well.

On balance, they're cooperative, relatively friendly creatures. This is what evolutionary psychologists call the survival of the friendliest. Like for millennia it was the friendliest among us who had the most kids, who had the biggest chance of passing on their genes. to the next generation. It's just that power corrupts. Power is an incredibly dangerous drug.

Strangely uh appropriate given the conversation we've been having for the last three hours. And I'm going to end today's programme with a call back to the very first call today, uh which was from uh Aidan, and he's Rydw i'n meddwl yw'r Cymru'r Cymru'r Cymru'r Cymru'r Cymru'r Cymru'r Cymru'r Cymru'r Cymru'r Cymru'r Cymru'r Cymru'r Cymru

Here's the whole thing. Uh between May and December twenty thirteen, Lance Corporal Leakey was deployed in Afghanistan as a member of a task force conducting operations to disrupt insurgent safe havens and protect the main operating base in Helmand Province.

Mae llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer On the twenty second of august twenty thirteen, Lance Corporal Leakey deployed on a combined UK US assault led by the United States Marine Corps into a Taliban stronghold to disrupt a key insurgent group.

After dismounting from their helicopters, the force came under accurate machine gun and rocket propelled grenade fire, resulting in the command group being pinned down on the exposed forward slope of a hill. The team attempted to extract from the killing zone for an hour, their efforts resulting in a Marine Corps captain being shot and wounded and their communications being put out of action.

Lance Corporal Leakey, positioned on the lee of the hill, realizing the seriousness of the situation and with complete disregard for his own safety, dashed across a large area of barren hillside which was now being raked with machine gun fire. As he crested the hill, the full severity of the situation became apparent. Approximately twenty enemy had surrounded two friendly machine gun teams and a mortar section, rendering their critical fire support ineffective.

Undeterred by the very clear and present danger, Larns Corporal Leakey moved down the forward slope of the hill and gave first aid to the wounded officer. Despite being the most junior commander in the area, Larns Corporal Leakey took control of the situation and initiated the casualty evacuation.

Realizing that the initiative was still in the hands of the enemy, he set off back up the hill, still under enemy fire, to get one of the suppressed machine guns into action. On reaching it, and with rounds impacting on the frame of the gun itself, He moved it to another position and began engaging the enemy. This courageous action spurred those around him back into the fight.

Nonetheless, the weight of enemy fire continued. For the third time and with full knowledge of the extant dangers, Lance Corporal Leakey exposed himself to enemy fire once more. Weighed down by over sixty pounds of equipment, he ran to the bottom of the hill, picked up the second machine gun, and climbed back up the hill again, a round trip of more than two hundred meters on steep terrain.

During the majority of the enemy fire, with rounds splashing around him, Lance Corporal Leakey overcame his fatigue to recite the gun and return fire. This proved to be the turning point. Inspired by Lance Corporal Leakey's actions, and with a heavy weight of fire now at their disposal, the force began to fight back with renewed ferocity.

Having regained the initiative, Lance Corporal Leakey handed over the machine gun and led the extraction of the wounded officer to a point from which he could be safely evacuated during this assault. Eleven insurgents were killed and four wounded.

But the weight of enemy fire had effectively pinned down the command team. Displaying gritty leadership well above that expected of his rank, Lance Corporal Leakey's actions single handedly regained the initiative and prevented considerable loss of life.

allowing a wounded US Marine officer to be effa evacuated. For this act of valor, Lance Corporal Leakey is highly deserving of significant national recognition. Namely, The Victoria Cross, for actions which President Trump prefers to describe as hanging back from the front line. That's it from me for today. If you missed any of today's show, you can listen back on our free Global Player app or the new LBC app, where you can stay up to date on the top stories and opinions.

Put your news categories in the order you want. Pause and rewind live radio and listen to a range of podcasts, including Full Disclosure and the James O'Brien Daily the best bits from this show every day. Download the official LBC app for free from your app store now. Coming up at four on L B C It's Tom Swabrick, remember with a side order of Simon Marks. But now it's time for