I'm always always sir, be careful.
Love those umboo.
Let We'll use your head. They will tear you lack a purple talk.
Oh no, no, no, yeah, yeah yeah yeah, oh no no no.
Hi. I'm Amanda and I'm Rumby.
Welcome to its lay It.
We're in a long distance friendship that started over twenty years ago when we were in high school.
We'll be talking about all things life, love, family, anything and everything else under the sun.
Delve deeper with us because in life, you know my layers.
Oh no, no, no, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Hello everybody, and welcome to a brand new episode of our podcast, It's lad Podcast. How are you doing, Amanda, Hi and me, I'm good.
How are you? I'm so hyped. I don't even know. I'm just really hype.
We hype in this building. It's quite interesting that you're hype because we're actually leading towards Christmas, and I've actually been highly stressful trying to think of everything that needs to be done. Typically, if anyone knows me, I'm actually a huge Christmas girlie. I love Christmas. I typically like go into decorating as early as possible, and also, but this year I feel like I am lagging behind, and I kind of feel like I'm failing at my essence.
The essence of Woo room be is you know. So yeah, it's been quite interesting for me. But other than that, I'm doing all right. I'm doing alright. And for you your hype, life's good.
Yeah, I'm just hype, not tied to Christmas or anything. I mean, by the time this episode is, Christmas will be a distant memory. I'm drinking.
But sorry.
People get so like, I love Christmas, but I don't know, like I'm not You're not a Christmas Yeah, And I think that's it's like being a desk for a victim of like Christmas also comes with Okay, that's the time I work hard. Everyone's gone, time I get my paper,
like you know what I mean. Like, so I find it hard because it's like and I think we talked about this our Surviving Desperate episode where it's like Christmas for me is a time when all my family is gathered and that doesn't necessarily always tie in with actual christinies. And I think also being here with like so multicultural, I'm close to people who don't celebrate Christmas, like Chinese New Year, Lunar New year is huge here, so it's like, then what is Christmas? You know what I mean?
Yeah, I get you.
It's like, yeah, it's like when you stund some people who have a different version of Christmas, then you start to think, oh, okay, there are.
The things, Yeah, there are other things. Yeah, and the Western world we really emphasize it. But yeah, I think for me it's because since I was a kid, it was always a big thing. Yeah what you said, Yeah, it's a big deal.
So it's yea zim trust me. It's such a huge Christmas box the box, like I mean the last year when we went Hamburg together, I mean, can I let the people know that this Christmas will be in Australia together. So maybe that's why I'm hyped because I'm hosting this. Yeah I do, I do plan to be. Maybe I'm the Christmas girly for you.
Okay, that's that's what's something, that's what that makes sense, Thank you, thank you very much. But yeah, this is our season finale, Amanda. We've actually come to the end of season five. I feel like two seconds ago we're saying welcome to season five. We can't believe it's season five. And now We've hit the finale of season five.
And so much happened this season. Our fiftieth milestone happened. I mean this this season had the most guests we've always have done in the last season. Yeah, so it's like just being giving. This season has just been giving. I really have been feeling our Bobby era. Why reckon we even talked about Bobby era always down the Bobby Era track.
Yeah, it's a great question because I never thought I was a Bobby girl. I've never really been a Bobby girl. Actually, Amanda fun Fact got me my first ever Bobby. Did I say this already on the podcast. I never had a Bobby like growing up, but and I was like, oh, I never even go to Bobby. And then Amanda was like, all right, here you go, here's your Bobby, your friend.
We really, I guess both of us watched the Bobby movie, as we've said in previous episodes, and watching that film, it was so different to the Bobby we grew up knowing. You know, the Bobby of affection. You know, white, skinny, long hair that looks nothing like my hair, you know,
things like that. We grew up in that era. But there's a very crucial moment in the movie spoiler alert if you've not already watched it, where Gloria played by America Ferrara, has this monologue and she's talking about how exhausting it is to be a woman. And I'll just quote like one or two lines from her speech which really resonated with me. She says, like, we have to always be extraordinary, but somehow we're always doing it wrong. Imagine, and she goes on this old spiel.
Yeah, yeah, we'll definitely share the monologue on our socials when the episode drops. For those of you haven't seen it.
Yeah, but just one of the lines, you have to be thin but not too thin, and you can never say you want to be thin. So this you're left in this sort of I don't know what do you call it?
Like do you have to say I want to be healthy? And what is healthy?
Yes, it's so confusing. So I think that when you spoke to us, because it really ties in with perfectionism, which is something that you know, we'll go more into depth with this episode, but it's really just like, man, there's no winning. It's a conundrum. Actually that's what I was looking It's a conundrum because you have to be thin but not too thin. You can't say you want to be thin, because you have to say you want to be healthy. But what is healthy and what does
being healthy look like? And how do you.
Yeah, and then you always have to be part of the sisterhood, she said, like you always have to root for other women, you know. And it's like, yeah, it's true. And it's a dichotomy, right, like, yeah, you want to be perfect, but there's all these things fighting against that, and then even wanting to be perfect, is that right? Like yeah, and this makes me think, what is perfectionism? To your room being?
Now, through a lot of work, I've come to learn that perfectionism is a lie. It's a facade. I'm not actually defining it. I think a man is asking for the definition. But I really come to learn that it's a facade. And the definition of perfectionism would be to be perfect. But what does it mean to be perfect or to do things exactly or beyond the ideal level? You know? And I think there's a difference between excelling and being and perfectionism. I think they marked difference between
the two. How would you define it? Because I failed all I've said is.
Ad No, Well, it's the word describes itself being perfect or ticking all them boxes at high level, not just not average. Do Yeah, So I think, yeah, that is perfectionism, right, getting everything right. You know, the man is fair, or you've got a man or a woman, if whatever your sexual orientation is. The kids are fit. If you've got kids, you know, they look absolutely amazing, nothing's wrong with them.
The family is all set, nothing's wrong, Like, there is nothing wrong, no flaws right, and we are imperfectly perfect human beings with lots of flaws. So it's such a dichotomy between that, like it's like, Okay, how are we, as flawed human beings going to be perfect to begin with? We're a ready set up for failure in this perfect scenario. And I think for me, it's almost the beast that's
constantly on our shoulders. Yes, throughout life, you know, doing everything right, doing everything is expected, all the things we've talked about, you know now that I think about it, from our first episode, very first episode, very first season, all the way are rooted and perfectionism because it's like you're not meeting them mark perfect class, your problem, You're not the Yeah, you're problematic. You know your parenting wasn't right,
You're what kind of finances? Like everything we've talked about has seed from perfectionism, because that's just like you have had to have had it right to begin with, and then now when you don't, it's a path.
It's a problem that's so deep, which brings to question when how do you think it all came about? This idea of perfectionism? Where does it stem from? How did it come about? And maybe in relation to our who we are, our culture, our cultural background and where we come from. What is the root cause perfectionism?
I think I guess comparison and it spoke about this comparison culture. But I think you think you're perfect until you look in the other lane. Right, Yes, you think you're fine, You think you're good, and does someone says you're not?
You know?
And I see it now, this is going to be so like we're gonna be doulving today. Can I see it now? When I look at Jerome, he does not think he's not perfect, like oh boy thinks everything is does is?
Like for me, he's so cutey for me.
I just did that. I just climbed the stair clip for me, you know, so it's like, how do we lose that someone along the way is gonna go that's not that great? Yeah yeah, wow, you're not that cute. You're cute, You're too big, you're too thin, You to this, you to that, someone's gonna come and shutter at some point that image you have of yourself, you know, even if you want to take it to religion. I mean a lot of us we know God made us perfectly. Is the whole notion right when you read the Bible
that everything is great about us? That you know, and then it's say, okay, so at what point did we then allow shame and allow distrust of that notion to come in? Yeah, well, at a time when we were just like.
Hmmm, I think in the biblically it would be when Eve ate the fruit exactly.
So yeah, it's back to our beginning story.
Yeah, yeah, that's right. It's scary, scary, re and I think also it stems from you spoke about an episode of Allyship about the ego and where it's like you feel threatened and it comes as a Mander says from comparison, you feel threatened. So you're like, ah, you're supposed to be like this, So hence things like classism, you're not like me, I'm threatened. You know, You're not this racism, You're not that.
You know.
There's so many elements. It's like the ego of like, oh, I have to be better than someone else. Yeah, can't you just be exactly?
And who said how do you think it presents in our day to day life though? Because obviously we've taken it fine and talked about religion and whatever. But just as you as a black woman, as a black woman in modern society, how do you think it presents in your day to day life.
Well, let's just take it like today's Sunday when we're recording, and typically on a Sunday, it's like getting ready for the week. So as a woman, it's like, Okay, have we eaten breakfast? Have I changed the bedding, Have I done laundry? Have I cleaned the house? Have I water the plants? Have I cooked or meal prepped? Have I prepared for work?
Have I done some self care?
Done some self care?
Have I met up with the girlies for branch?
Have I spoken to my family and friends? Have I been there for my partner? Have I It's like this over and it used to sit on me heavy that, like have I ticked? You know, you will do the most and still be like, oh but I forgot to take out the trash something I'm giving an example. Yeah, yeah, so just from like a household thing's it's it's insane. And then of course it happens in the workplace. You know, have I performed enough? Am I? Am I showing my worth?
Do they value me? And so you keep pushing to try and be the perfect whatever employee or whatever it is, and it's just like bruh, yeah, you'll never meet the mark ever. Ever, I don't know for you.
No, oh for sure. And it purds out in so many ways because some stuff we can be ridiculously like esteemed in this whole idea of being perfect, and some stuff were like willing to let go. So even something depends on each person is different, right. Some people will be like, oh my god, I have eat clean, go to the gym, I look like this. My body is like this and my man never sees me with that makeup,
have my hair dad, have my nails like. It can be like that, or it can also just be like the way you think, like what she said, taking off your list of it can be like with your family, Okay, have I done people pleasing? Have I done everything for everyone else and left myself nothing? So it's like it just literally some people might have the whole gamut and some people could just have this one thing in one specific error. Yeah, I'm like, I have to be you know.
And then I find like for women generally and maybe men's different. I mean I would love to for our listeners to let us know, our male listeners to let us know, but for women, it feels like we have to be across the board, yes, whereas with men usually they'll be like, I like salad work, I'm a CEO. I'm doing the things, but when I get home, it's feed up video game, you know, like the I don't have to do the bedding. I don't have to do that.
But it's like for us as women, it's like every we go, every we go, like everything we do, everything we touch, even if you do go to the gym, it's like, Okay, I have to be the best, I look the best, I have to have the best offic after like it's like it's like never yeah, it's never ending.
It's and another example would be if you've ever seen or heard of people who have like real OCD, like people jerk. I have OCD, but have real OCD how things have to line up and perfect. It can manifest in those really visible ways, but it's also within us in different ways. You know, for example, someone I'll give a personal example. We're on holiday with friends and I made a potato salad. I had made like I marinated meat for the barbecue. I'd made like other food, salad, gravy, everything,
set things out nicely, ready to eat or whatever. And then we're eating the potato salad and the potatoes were little bit two, not soft enough, and I remember everyone ate they were like happy, like oh this is great, loved it, whatever, But the potato salad thing was stuck in my brain like I was like it was horrible
because the potato salad was not perfect. Do you understand, Like yeah, and for and it can happen, And you know, someone else was like, oh really it was not an issue, but for you in that lane, it's like data salad was not.
Perfect, and then it super sedes.
Yes everything you've done girl, like you've done ten other dishes. Yes, which already is a feet in itself, yes, but now you're going to obsess about the potato marinade, about that one thing. Yep, exactly.
It's not perfect because in your your your your lunch or your dinner wasn't perfect, right, yes, potato salad.
And it's in your head and you stuck with it until my therapist was like, girl, I think it's fine. Like literally, when she said it to me, she's like, what, like, you know until someone So that's you know, another example. But do you think perfectionism is damaging? And how so?
I do think it's damaging because none of us are perfect, and yet we're all in this rat race of trying to be you know, whether the rat race is yours personally or on a grander scale. People compare between siblings, people compare between like workmates, yeah, you know lovers, People leave boyfriends and girlfriends there because they're not that perfect person.
Like it's it can be damaging, but is so isolating, Like as you just said, everyone was like, my god, the lunch was yummy, the dinner was yummy, but you are now in your own little world, but potato salad and nobody else is in there with you, and like, now maybe you didn't enjoy the rest of the day, Like even if you reflect on it, you know, and there are memories to be made, moments to be had.
But because potato salad wasn't perfectly know what I mean like it so and when someone else explains it to you, as you said your therapist did, it sounds so like the of course, but when you're in it, you're in it isolating. You're isolating. Is that that feeling?
Absolutely? And I think too, as humans, as Amanda said earlier, we are imperfect and with perfectionism, you are holding yourself up to a standard that's unrealistic, but also saying that ugly parts of yourself are not okay. So you live a life of self hate and self judgment where you cannot embrace yourself fully. So in our life we have our dark sides. We all have dark side Like nobody
nobody is like angelic. It's impossible. And so you're you're hating on the dark side, your flaws, and you imagine you live your whole life without fully accepting self with that level. And it can come through not necessarily physically, like yes, of course we're quick to say, oh I wish I had you know, stronger carves or whatever. But it can manifest. And I wish I was smarter in this way. I wish I was more able to be oriented with directions, or I could keep time more perfectly,
I could do. You understand what I'm saying, And then you live this thing, this life, with a constant state of you are not good enough constantly and so hence why if you're in a relationship with someone who is abusive. We also spoke about abuse on this on this podcast, and they're saying you're not good enough. You can understand why people feeding it's feeding the beasts, and why they stay in the relationship to try and prove that no, I can be perfect.
Just see let me try, let me show yeah, yeah, a damaging relationship exactly.
So it then manifests in other areas and it's just like the snowball.
Yeah. And we've talked about mental health before, were two broke twimbos, because that just sounds like anxiety driven to me, like you know, you're now you're now in your mind all the time, and instead of being in the now sort of enjoying them now, you're just like forever living Because a lot of times it's retrospect, right, yes, so now you're forever living in the past. Oh I could
have done that. Oh why don't I do this? And it's just like it's draining and the mental load it takes could be used for other things.
More productive things, bro. And also it can be future driven, right because you're like perfect Christmas, I have to There's this movie on Netflix, a Christmas movie with Brandy and did her friend goes to visit her or something. I only watched like a few minutes because I can do it, okay, But the friend was like, she's so perfect. No, I
can be perfect in life? Is so perfect and like that, you know, it's like that thing of like I have to have the perfect Christmas, the perfect house, the perfect husband, perfect kid's perfect. It's perfect, perfec factly imperfect, like it cannot exist. It does. So it also in the past, so anxiety inducing in the past, anxiety inducing thinking about the future. If I don't do this.
And then you're not living, yeah yeah, yeah. Do you think it can ever be helpful? Though?
I think as humanity, as humans, why we've survived so long in this world is our constant growth and pushing ourselves to the next level to do better and be better. I do think sometimes we confuse that with perfectionism, but it's actually just excellence and growth. And oftentimes the things that propel humanity forward are birthed or out of necessity
or struggle. So if you think about struggle and necessity, it doesn't happen in perfect conditions, because if things are perfect, you wouldn't have a need to figure out okay, instead of me having to get on a boat for weeks on end to go from Africa to America or from Africa to Asia, what if I could fly there? Now?
The conditions are not ideal, right, because you know, you get sickness, see sickness, People die all sorts of issues, and so the conditions are not So if there were perfect conditions, if it was just like a seamless huh, I'm there and it takes one second, you wouldn't need to create the right brothers wouldn't have had to invent a plane. You understand what I'm saying. So I think there's a false narrative. We tell ourselves that things have to be perfect in order to be good, but actually
it's the imperfections that help us to move forward. As humanity and society. I think we confuse perfectionism with excellence a lot of the time, and it's difficult sometimes to separate the two.
So it's a thin line.
It's a thin line, you know. And I think I've come to know that. I don't think perfectionism is rooted in good things at the heart of it. It seems like it is, but it's it's like not really, I don't know what you think. I don't know if I've answered the question.
I don't know. I think like I look at it so black and white, like obviously it's helpful in some careers, like I don't want a pilot to not be perfect in my child. If I'm flying, it's because you made me think about flying room or like a surgeon or like. So there's some times when we are called to a higher power, are called to a higher esteem, and we have to be on an a gain. That's what they say, that on your a gaining. And I know people can think, oh, yeah,
that's overachieving. But even in that overachieving, or even in that seeking excellence, for those ten minutes or fifteen minutes or whatever long it takes you, you have to do something in a perfect way, but to live like that all the time is unsustainable. So even the surgeon is going to do your surgery right, you know, your pilot's gonna land the plane, but he doesn't. It doesn't necessarily mean when he steps out that plane it has to continue being years in that state of perfection, do you
know what I mean? So I think it's like a time and a place thing for it. But what I think happens is that we get addicted to that feeling. Yeah I can do that, I'm because there's also ego what you said before, roomy. So so some of it is very introspective and some of it is very like people praising you. Right, pilot lands the plane, the whole plane. You know, the pilot's gonna come out like dot that you know.
So it's like then you go, oh my, just the regular you might not be, you know, like surgeon that known typically their attitudes, their personas.
Are like mister confident, mister, arrogant, mister. They're known to have that pompous and genermanization.
Because it's probably fed by that achieving you know, and like men, I feel like that's the part where we can't switch it.
Our brains love dopamine. Yes, and we can't switch it on and off. Yes, and that's why we then keep speaking it all in all areas of life. Meanwhile, it's like, Okay, you're only meant to do that perfectly for like ten fifteen and then let it go. But you're now like trying to have that feeling everywhere. And I think it is like a drug where you kind of like get addicted to. But there's something we're getting out of it.
Because even when you are perfect, if you had done your dinner room be perfectly, you probably would have found something else exactly, you know what I mean exactly in this constant state of how can I find this? And when you're making design or crafting something or working on someone or it's needed to have that yes, and it's helpful to have that nitpick like how can I do that better? How can I you know?
Not like then excellence, That's what I'm saying. It's like, I think we really are no.
But I think excellence still gives room for flaws, whereas perfectionism doesn't. You have to do it from start to finish with that same energy. You can't be like, oh yeah, you know, but on that it's okay, I'm going to handball that. Like it's like you have to be on that higher level of For me anyway, I think like because I feel like excellent and overachievement or being above are like I'm the same, but there's still room for like tweaking, whereas with perfectionism there's no tweaks.
It's like, sure, that's how I think we're saying the same thing, but using different language. I think maybe for me the language now of perfectionism, I approach with caution because, as you say, I think a surgeon should do it extremely well, like you should be able to stitch you up and do the things that needs to be done exceptionally. Well, maybe exceptional is what I would use, so to be able to do something exceptionally. But you're so right about that, Dopamine.
I think we are supposed to tap into that level of exceptional perfectionism in your words, at a certain point and then retreat from that. And I think at a level of exceptional and that perfection, as the pilot lines a plane, you have to be tapped in. And it's not just you. I think you almost tap into a higher version of yourself. It's almost like, I don't know how to explain this. I mean, all our diaries are perfect, exactly. No one as a god in every religion, the god
is perfect. Yes, So then you tie in, you tap into that level in exactly chase that, and I think it's very true. Also we see with celebrity ease. I was watching the Robbie Williams documentary, and you really realize that chasing that that people love me, people accept me, people like me as I am, and they think I'm fantastic. And as soon as there's an element of doubt or someone saying, oh maybe I don't like you so much,
it's the crumble. Do you understand what I'm saying? So it's like it really is a drug, And then aren't I accept it? I'm perfect? Can't I be?
And that's why it's not sustainable. You need to realize that it can be sought and retreated, but I don't think it's meant to be sought often. And I do think it's meant to be sought as needed, But it's that we love that feeling, So then we end up staying in that place, in that state.
And it's unsustainable. But are there different types of perfectionism.
I think so, Like, I think there's societal where people are like, you know, your mother, you should do this, you should do that.
I don't have my stuff for those high standards, like why do you your wife? You know, how can you deal let your husband not have sex?
How can you dal let your you know, students, you know, I expect better from your room me. You're usually my a star student, Like, you can't have a bad day, you can't have stresses. So I think there's like there's different types where people ask us to tap into perfectionism or ask us to tap into excellence or overachieving or you know, just doing things well. And then that's why even our bodies, right, like oh my god, you have
a great body when you're twenty five, when you're forty five. Really, most times it's not going to look exactly the same as it looks like you're twenty five, naturally, and then we want to tap into it, like because we're like, oh no, I used to look good, but it's like, but you've changed, You've grown your body, your face shows your life, you know. But yet we're trying to be
like no boattox, I can't be having wrinkles. So I feel like it's all some stuff as visual, so your body image and all that stuff, and some stuff like internal. Some stuff is within families. You're the you're the firstborn son, you're the first daughter, you're the you know that the siblings after you can fail and flounder, but you have to be like yeah, I feel like there's different types from different people.
Yeah, yoh, there's no winning in this life.
Yeah, what a right, wrap it up?
Yeah, you're right. I have nothing more to add. It's just it's complex.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's that's the true. Do you think society having said that encourages or discouraged, discourages the notion of yes, affectionism.
Yes, thousand, they encourage, they encourage it. And when you know, I'm thinking of myself as a young Zimbabwean girl growing up and Ziva mun like no, everyone morosam in order, wash hands in the correct order, in the correct order, who's who, give food out in the correct order. Don't complain if they're telling you to run up and down and then never mind when you eat, never mind. Yosada
needs to be perfect. You need to be able to do it like that like this, yo yo, yo, and I think and it's praised right and they are not going it's so smart. Oh god, straight a's Oh did did that? You know we praise a lot. We rarely praise people who fall and are able to still keep going, for example, like you know, like I've made a mistake, but I'm choosing to still get up. We don't praise that. Really, it's just like, oh, you have to be perfect for you.
It's so sad, right, and I think you're right, Like I mean, Zimbabwean society definitely encourages perfectionism, like don't talk to no boys when you're in high school. Then get yourself the right man. Yes, it's like, okay, how do I jump from no boys to a man? And then after that, I I have the kids. Make sure you have a boy because you have to carry the name. Then have a girl maybe after so you know, they
have siblings and they can play together. Like everything is just like oh, in the midst of this, oh, did you make sure you brought your house?
Yeah?
You know, make sure you drive a nice car, like make sure you're not just driving school or school, like you're actually driving a proper car. Like it's like, okay, how do I make sure you go to church? Yes, make sure you Yes, It's like, okay, how do I remain skinny?
Like it's just like everything is, Oh, they don't be too skinny because then you look like you don't also got man like, it's just.
Like, how do you keep up with everything?
Keeping up appearances?
I mean our podcast, I feel just wiring. We probably tied this whole season while so perfectly in the beginning, but like it's because our whole podcast is based on this dichotomy of how do we achieve all these things that I expected of us? Yes, when we are and sometimes you don't even expect it of yourself. You like, I wasn't even thinking of this, but now you put this idea in my hair and my name to be
this person, and I need to do these things. And this is not the right order it should have been in.
Yes, you start beating yourself and berating yourself from not doing that. If anyone has a great example actually is if you watch when we were younger, there was keeping up appearances, a show about the Bouquet residence is actually they was bucket, but she calls off the Bouquet and how she used to flawdin like like struggle to try and maintain this perfection. But half the time she was failing, and she.
Didn't want their neighbors to see and everyone knew already. Child husband was so over it, yes, exactly, but now you act to just be alone for the ride.
And it was such a great example of how perfectionism is so ridiculous because so what doesn't even exist. You're even denying your name because you're trying to to be this perfect yeah.
Whatever from the certain class or certain background.
Yeah. Absolutely, So that's a good. That's a good. And then there's keeping up with the Joneses and all.
That those kind of And I think for me, what also hurts about is that it can be personal. Right, so it's okay if society at large, but even sometimes people have husbands. There's this whole notion on TikTok at the moment. Obviously, I'm on mother Talk, so there's like this whole notion of they are single moms in marriages.
And the whole thing is because men think, oh, you can go to work, you can feed the kids, you can the kids need to look bright, like here's kept everything's perfect, and you are too at the same time, and it's like, Okay, how do I do this with no help, with no no nothing from you. It's all me. It's all everything that you're doing. And I've been making
sure everything stays done, but I don't getting input. So I think we also have these notions about our gender roles, right, something we spoke about because it's like, is that actually right? That women need to do everything and for the kids? Like we know, even with dinner, people are like, oh, so what's for dinner tonight? And look at the mom. It's like, well, why don't you look at dad and also ask what's for dinner? Like that should just be
completely normal. But then it's like that pressure society has put from the nineteen fifties, they're still there told now that women are the housewife and they also go to work.
You know, it's like they can't do it all. I think perfectionism always fights that, and that's why Rumby and I are saying, you tap into it, if at all, and then you retreat because you cannot operate on that level for every single thing and not have burnout, and not have mental fatigue, not have mental loading, not have something fall on the wayside, like you're juggling so many things in the same twenty four hours. What's that thing twenty twenty four hours in the day, And it's like, yeah,
but you have to also take care of yourself. I think society doesn't give that space. They just keep encouraging that everything's done.
And people say, for example, we all have the same twenty four hours as Beyonce, but Beyonce is told that she don't cook.
That's no, they don't cook.
So I'm just saying it just shows you like something has.
Gone and she has a team of people, it's not like.
Exactly, and also.
She ain't changing them nippeens, I'm exactly.
And I think for me, my sister actually said this to me. She was like, people judge, for example, stay at home mom's and say, oh, you're not doing anything. She was like, do you understand the mental fatigue it takes as a woman in a household, because yes, the kids go off to school and you're at home. But now you're thinking, Okay, so and so's birthday is coming up,
what are you going to do for that? We need to buy this, we need to do this, and just in even and I find that happens with me even if I'm just quote unquote chilling on the couch, I'll be busy like thinking of, okay, this is coming up. We need to make sure we have this, this is this,
we need to do that. Have we done this? Your constantly It's like the brain is constantly feeling like you need to do this because guess what if you don't have that gift for Jerome's homies birthday, they well they look at your.
House, but they all look at the husband and they won't look at Jerome exactly, but that exact thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's funny because there's a clip. Also you talked about Bobbie movie. But also just like that, they share about she I think she lets her husband do a lot of the chores for once, and obviously things are falling apart because for if.
Anyone wants to know, it's for the the series Sex and the City like series.
Yeah, like they did a sequel and just like that, and just like David, Yes, and she's talking to her husband and like it's like one of those things like and he's complaining that, oh, everything's falling apart, and she's like, no, it's because now I'm asking you guys to also do it, and I've been doing it. I've been checking these things. I've been so yes, just because you've done a couple of dinners and a couple of birthday presents and a couple of whatever whatever else doesn't mean that now I
owe you all of this. It shows the pressure that partners put on each other that you know he expects that it's done, and she's like, well, I'm also human to the way you are. I also have fatigue and I shouldn't have to be performing perfectly at all times. So I'll share that one as well. Yeah, we'll share it with you.
And also, how a dad will you know, be carrying their child and they were like, oh, such a great dad.
It's like you, that's your child.
I was cuddling your child or like pushing the prime or like things like that. It's like, it's also a child. Hey, it's also But would you say, okay, let's get to we've we've talked high level, let's get into it. Would you say you are a perfectionist and how has your journey with it been.
I would say I've always been a high achiever school, so I guess that's where I practiced trying to be perfect, you know what I mean, And the same as you saying when you cooked, you had this one dish. For me it was the opposite, like I could have straight a's and then one B somewhere, and then my parents would like hone in on that, like why are you
doing this? You know? Why is this not perfect? So, like I think I learned to deal with the disappointment that perfectionism when you're not perfect comes with very early on, to be like okay, no, but it's okay. I still got to be I'm fine, to learn to like pump
myself up despite people's thoughts about me. You know, I remember when even like an old level results came out and people were like, oh, you would have all a's and it's like no, and it's fine, Like I'm still I got the what I needed on the subjects I needed and I'm gonna be fine and I don't even think about it now. So I think it was one of those things where because of the high achieving and ZIM the way it is, I managed to create my own voice within that where it's like I don't have
to achieve all of those things. I do what I want when I want to do it. And I pick and choose what I want to do. But I also think another challenging time has obviously been motherhood, because that's a whole game. Like if Jeromas are running nose, everybody would be looking at you. If he does this, everybody
be judging you. Ah ah. So that because the comments come in thick and fast, I've had I find myself drawing back to that childhood where I had to be like self talk and be like no, exactly fine, it's fine and it now what's now changed with motherhood is I've had to not be vocal about it. So then when I was a child, I would just say in my brain like my parents be crazy, like it's fine, you know, but like I would never say that because
I got to get the shamou child. But like now that I'm older, I can actually someone actually says something about Jerome or about motherhood, or I can challenge it and be like, no, but dude, I'm tired. Even if it's my husband, even if it's you know, a fellow co worker or whatever, I can actually challenge the notion that I need to be perfect, you know. And I think when people are confronted with it, like oh, like oh. Then they also go self introspect. Oh why was I expecting that?
Off?
It's right, like, yes, it's okay, let me just you know. And sometimes I've actually say to people instead of telling me what to do, I don't you do it has bookers on his nose, there's tissue there. Why don't you wipe his nose? Why why are you telling me coming? Because I'm to tell me and you just don't do it yourself. So I think it's like I've had to, like I have the muscle, yes, and now I've had to like vocally vocalize it, use it in a different way to use it. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, But you've always been good and something that I've admired about you, You know, you have a very strong sense of self and ability to say I don't care what you're going to say. Do you understand like you've you've always had a very good sense of self since we were young, which is very admirable, and I really like that about you. It challenges me as well. For me, the answer to the question is, I'm one hundred percent of perfectionist, and I would like to say
I'm a recovering perfectionist. Still, have you know sometimes my name is Rumby, and I still have like like you know, you said the moments where.
The short incident.
Yeah, and I think for me in a way where you were like, oh, my parents tripping, I internalized it so much so that my parents need not say anything anymore. It was already within myself like.
Let's go there was I.
I'm the one who, you know, I would have homework. I'd be the one who's doning homework before they even say anything. They may say to my siblings, they have you have you done your homework? Or go to your homework? I was there already. They would go to bed sometimes. I remember I was in primary school. They would go to bed sometimes and I was there working on my project, making sure it's like perfect whatever. They're like, okay's doing
good night, Like see like I was. I was that, And I think it had a lot to do with upbringing for sure. I think it's also inherited in a way because I've seen it in in my mom in some ways, and you know, and yeah, yeah, I'm definitely a recovering perfectionist. Do you think heavy on the recovering?
Hey, we pray on the records. How do you think you've sought help, though, just how does one seek help when they're perfectionist?
Therapy mm hmmm, and something that's really my sisters She'll say something to me over and over like oh, it's fine, it's not an issue, and you still are like, no, you just say that because you love me. So when you hear it, sometimes from your loved ones like Amanda or whatever, we've spoken about body image, which has always been a big thing for me, and they're like, oh, you're fine, or my husband is like, girl, I love
you as you are. Whatever. It's sometimes when you hear an expert outsider who you feel has no insight into who you are tell you those things, then it like triggers this thing like oh oh so when it was these people were saying these things, they must be right. So I do recommend therapy is very helpful. It's very uncomfortable because when all you know is to be perfect, it's hard to let go and it's it's a it's a muscle that I'm still learning to practice. I think
it's also helped being away from home. I think it's also helped the partner that I have, who is able and willing to share the load. For example, he knows I'm not a morning person. I used to beat myself up for not being a five am riser, you know, up and you know, breakfast is real bad. And I used to beat myself up about it. And he really was just like, it's fine. So in the morning, he'd get up earlier, give me my time to get ready, and he'd make he makes breakfast like that's the that's
the thing. And learning that that's okay. But the zim Go in me was like, your man's be waking up before you to make breakfast.
Oh hell no.
But I've had to accept that that's who I am. And it's only honestly this year that i've really kind of to some degree except moved into that recovery.
Yeah. I think also the people around you, Like I feel like we talked a lot about like you just said, you know, you obviously had like friends and family who always say these things to you. Then therapy just firmed it. Yes, yeah, but I think some people have the opposite right where they have the family and the friends, but they're the one you exactly. I love you, but you're now holding
me to this highest theme. And people also, you have to always realize there's a lot of self interest in perfectionism, so people will be like, no, do it for me, because you always do it right. So it's also like okay, no, no, no, I need to have boundaries, like I'm not doing that nor more. The episode on Boundaries is exactly So I think it's like it's very crucial to surround yourself with
the right people. And I will credit Australia for that for me personally, because a lot of Australians have the saying when, well, she'll be all right, which means she'll be okay, like.
Fine, child, it's not the end of the world.
It's probably not gonna beat but will it be done? Yes, it will be done. So Amanda to Friday, Amanda, when you're tired from work and it's KFC that night, KFC, you didn't you you are? So I think it's like I've had to have adopted that aussy culture where she'll be all right, like we'll be fine, like today, I'm
not gonna be guns blazing about everything. It's yes, and Zim has I've had to leave Zim to achieve that, which is really sad because whenever I go back to Zim, I always say, oh, I have to my zim cap on, and I think my zim cap is perfectionism. I'm not gonna wake up after Tom or myself. I'm gonna have to be wringing up before them to speak. First, people do the dishes, then, do you know I'm gonna have to. This is the way the world, especially patriarchal worlds, work.
So I think it helps knowing your people, knowing what speaks to your soul. Where do you feel at peace? You know, because in perfectionism you're not at peace. You're just at all going going, You're in a hamster wheel.
It's all. So when you find yourself not in that hamster wheel, not thinking, I think, take a second to look around who's around you, Which energies are you absorbing and pushing up against, because you probably find that those are the same people you need to have around you when you are thinking, am I going need to do this? And you do that?
Yeah?
Yeah, it's so crucial. It's so so crucial.
That's actually I was gonna ask you a question about advice for perfectionism, and I think that's such great advice. And I surround yourself, who do you surround yourself with and around which what's your environment like if you can shift that and change that. And also, I would say Amanda mentioned in the Allyship episode, you should know you only have like five fucs to give. So in life it's like, why is this so important to you? And why do I need to care? Just ask yourself that.
And for me it's even in when I panic about something, asking but why is it? And you'll find a lot of the times we don't ask ourselves like why do I feel this need? And then it makes you pause, take a step back, and you have to be willing to be honest with yourself. Hence the dark side of you that perfectionism doesn't really like. Typically it allows you to sit in that a little and you're going to
have to be here's the thing. It's going to be very uncomfortable because with perfectionism we want the the comfort of like not dealing or not. It's gonna be ugly, there may be some tears, it's gonna be you feel a bit out of whack and out of who you know, what you're used to. Let's just ask yourself, why is it so important that the potato salad be perfect? What is this saying about guys. And I've used potato salad. It's a very almost like trivial issue.
But yeah, but it's but it shows how bad it can be trivial stuff. Yeah, it goes deep because if you're doing that potato salad for putter salad, what are you doing for the other things that are actually important?
Exactly?
Yeah, you know we're probably having sleepless nights sleeping because exactly, Amanda, you drag.
Me, drag me?
I don't know, No, I'm not dragging you at all. You know the love I have for you. It's just I think we all suffer from it. We all do it like it's just I think zimbabwe and women more so. And I think this is a love letter to our Zimbabwean women out there. Our whole season has been, our Barby era has been because it's really like, why are we the way we are? You know?
Because then that's why patriarchy feeds itself and attaches itself like a leech, because we already add the perfectionism.
Right, so the man, the man now coming and say do everything it discoes perfectly because of like, yeah, lament to do everything. I'm a strong black woman I can do it everything, you know, so it's like no, actually, and stay away from social media if you have problems with perfectionism, because also you need to realize that that's a highlight reel. They don't. They've got lots of things they're not showing you. A lot of couples you follow
on social media, you find out they broke up. There was I mean, here now we're going through our Will and Jada and his confessions period where everything meanwhile w and we're growing up. Will and Jada were the poster for you know, black power in Hollywood, So it's like, how do you you separate yourself from that? You need
to realize what's real, what's fake, see through it. And I have to give kudos to some certain degree to gen Z because they also teachings that MI learning to far far, too too far, you know, so like show the real real and like I feel, that's why even TikTok probably is possibly gone. I mean, apart from the timing with the pandemic, it's also because it stripped us back.
You know a lot of if you look at all the people we follow on TikTok as opposed to their Instagram, that's the perfect There's that whole line about Instagram versus reality expectations. This is reality because it's like on TikTok, they'll be there with their bonnet on telling you the realist and then you get to know their personality, their their flaws, so to. But on Instace it will be the proper shot pick, you know, the everything glam glam.
So I think you just need to be very conscious of your mind and protect your soul and what you feed your mind or what you feed your soul.
Yes, yes. Another tip I would have about perfectionists for perfectionists is looking in the mirror and when I did this and I still struggle with it to some degree, and saying what you like about yourself and just leaving it at that and leaving like if it's an imagery thing, if it's about how you look, just saying like, I love you to yourself, you may feel quite great for a little bit these are It may seem who ha,
but honestly, it's just what you feed yourself. Or putting sticky notes up around like that just encourage you words of encouragement, or taking time to meditate if meditation is
your thing. Journaling has been is my thing, that's that's my life saving thing where you put it out you know, and honestly just know it's okay to be weak or to not about it today and to ask for all ask for help, you know, yeah, like are you And I think and this is not this is not turning me into a therapy position when it's not meant to.
Think of my therapies so much. But I think, like, also another thing that I'm like, like for our listeners to know is that it's okay to not to do the bare minimum sometimes, like it's fine to just be like brah, it will have to do and actually sit with that feeling and be happy with that feeling. Yeah, And of course if you're achieving, everything is great. But on that day when you don't, that's also great. Like
it's fine. Like and I think we've been brought up to think the opposite, to be disappointed, to look at the joneses to do this and that. But really, at the end of the day, most people don't even notice all these things. We're just like, oh, because I think anyone who's to meet any of us, we think, oh, these girls are confident, have a podcast, they have these days and not see all the things underneath it, or yeah, to realize like yeah, we questioned ourselves in this podcast,
or like are we doing the right thing? Are we holding the mark? Are we doing this? Are we doing that? Is our qualitifying? Is our audio? Like all these things. Then at the end of the day, it's like, but we have to just keep going, we have to keep moving, and we improve and perfect so to speak, in time and with time.
And you know, speaking of this season, it's almost been like really telling of my life. I think at the beginning of the season, I talked about how I was evolving as a person, and it's quite interesting, you know, when sharing that my answer is for for posting on social media, I was like, my only word is evolving And for me, I was like, no, I need to have you know. And it was hard and it's been a journey a man and knows it's been a journey
for me. You know. I left my job, I took time out, which again for perfection, it's like me very hard, very isolating and being okay with just being And it took me actually months to actually just be okay with being and letting go of that. And I share all this to say that it's it's a journey. It's very difficult, it's very confronting. But I think you also realize you cannot live life chasing perfection at your own expense, which
I think I have been prone to doing. Sorry, And so yeah, I think this episode is just an episode of encouragement for people who like me, like us, have struggled with perfectionism, that there's other ways to and to live truly and honestly in your truth as you are, come as you are. You know, even biblically we're told come as you are if you're religious in that way. But we struggle, and we absorb so much of what society has to offer to tell us at our expense.
So yeah, I don't know if this has been useful for anyone, this.
Has been therapeutic for you, yeah, you know. So yeah, And we hold space for anyone who feels like it's become too much. I mean, one of the things with perfectionism is that, you know, comparison is a thief of joy, and when you can keep comparing yourself, you're never going to be the best in all aspects at all times, you know. And also no need to procrastinate because you want to make everything perfect. Yes, you know, like go for your dreams, go for your goals, whether they're perfect
or not. You will figure it out on the way. Roomby, and I always laugh and say, even with this podcast, just delete it doesn't work out, you know, Like that's how you have to approach your life, that you have to give it a girl. You have to give it a shot. So Rumby, I'm so proud of you. We have no idea how like you're so inspiring because you always always look out for yourself and I love that, and not in a like egotistical way, but in a what can I be doing better? How can I live
my life better? And a lot of people don't even question themselves. They just go mundane expecting you know, Sam is going to change, something's going to change. But you actually seek that change, You seek that evolving, and I think you're only going to be the better for it.
Thank you, thank you, And I'm thankful for you for giving me the room, the space, and the encouragement even on days when I couldn't just chill and you're just like, just chill, that's fine, you'll be fine, it's okay. Switch off. And my sister too, I definitely have to shout her out and my husband like again, can you unity is so so so important when you definitely is trying to heal from perfectionism. So thank you so much for listening the season. But before we go.
Before I let you go, there you go with me?
What do we gotta do? Amanda let them go?
Speaking about community, we've obviously launched our website, We've obviously come a long way from season one now season five, and to close off our season, instead of doing our regular ZIM shout outs, yes, we're going to shout out our it's layered dolvers. So those people who've just been showing us love since they don't been encouraging us, especially
through the socials. I know a lot of people like to look and not let themselves be known, but we love for you to let us you know, know you around, know you're listening, know what you're getting from it, what you're gleaning from our episode, because it keeps us going. As you can see, this is a vulnerable safe space and we all need to uplift each other to keep going.
So this is just a shout out to our Islea Dovas we know there's plenty of you, y'all, but we had to really make this an exclusive club because we can't. We can't, but we can have the whole episode listening. Everybody. Yes, if you want to shout out, please reach out to us, give us some comments, show us some love on the socials, send us a review in mind, send us a review, subscribe rate like all those comments, all those things that
the people these days say. But yeah, shout out to Couzy, Tino Derby, Drew Picks, Myself, Sonya did, Larissa, Pumi and of course Mama Doo Mama Doobs.
The only on baby boomer who probably into our podcast. She loves and for sure, thank you to some of our dolvers and supporters on the social media. On x we have Chiezza Gonbetza who's always showing us love at the Manyati Melody Chinguaru Tomelo Chi Gnat from the Girls in Skies podcasts, as well as on Instagram at just some more. These are Delvers supporters who're constantly showing us love, content,
constantly engaging with us, constantly hollering at us. Of course, there are many others, but we just wanted to say thank you and please, as a matter said, if you want to, if you want to shout out, call her back, send us a review comment, and don't forget to subscribe not only to the podcast, but on our website because then you'll be getting the latest details, first look at blog posts, all those fun things. So please go to our website it's laid podcast dot com and show us
love there. Amanda, what a season.
What a season. Please know, even though we're going on a hiatus because we need to rest, child, we'll come back. Keep your eyes peeled for something extra special. Okay, dot dot.
Dot, Amanda Element, I don't know what I know. Dank you, I don't know why, love you so much for me.
Loved this season, loved all our guests. Special shout out to our guests for this season. Absolutely, that would be surrou that would be Wordsy, that would be the NYE and obviously your bonus who Willsie in the mid Thanks so much for your love for coming on our Bobby Era season and we'll keep up and I on all the projects you're up to as well.
Absolutely, thank you so much. Take care of yourself, take care of each other, take care bye everyone.
Bye.
They will tear you ak like a pepper too. Oh no no, no, yeah yeah yeah yeah