Unlocking the Secrets of Wisdom: Insights from Dr. Laura Gabayan

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My guest today is Dr. Laura Gabayan. Dr. Gabayan is a world-renowned physician and researcher dedicated to conducting quality work and excellence in everything she pursues. Dr. Gubayen has extensive experience doing and publishing research in scientific journals. Dr. Gubayen is regarded internationally as an expert in the field of emergency medicine. She has received multiple research grants and awards for her work. She completed three additional years of research education past her medical

training to become a greater expert in research. Dr. Kabayan has now moved her expertise to society as a whole, as she feels this is valuable knowledge that the world should have access to. She has authored a book titled Common Wisdom, Eight Scientific Elements of a Meaningful Life, in which she scientifically defines wisdom as eight elements.

Dr. Kabayan emigrated to the United States at age six and attended UCLA for undergraduate graduate studies, medical school, residency training, and additional training and research. Beginning in 2013, Dr. Gabayan started to experience multiple health challenges that caused her to change course and focus on deeper questions surrounding the meaning of life and wisdom. She then interviewed 60 wise adults across North America and defined wisdom as eight elements in her book, Common Wisdom.

These eight elements are the secret ingredients to living a life of joy and success. In this project, she was thorough, rigorous, and dedicated to exploring the truth.

Dr. Gabayan is here today with us to share her story and discuss the findings of her study regarding wisdom. Welcome, Dr. Gabayan, to the podcast. A pleasure to have you here. Thank you for having me. Explain to us why you as a physician took on this project and your interest in wisdom. In other words, what was the catalyst for this? The catalyst was my health. And I will start off that you can still hear that I slur my speech. So I developed a lot of random symptoms in 2013.

I kept publishing, and then I noticed that the people who really did not want to label me, did not really care to, were the wise. And physicians, medicine, everyone else, you know, had a reason for why I felt how I did. They're really ready to give me a reason. And so that's when I was like, okay, the wise knows, then I looked at the wisdom, I realized I really don't know much. I didn't know much, but I wanted to, I knew I had to do research. I was busy.

I had published plenty. I had done additional time. And so I knew how to do the research. And that's when I started to learn about how to look into wisdom. And the only people who can identify it are people, humans. And that's why I interviewed 60. And it's not different based on gender, race, or political affiliation. It is different based on region. And that's why I stuck to North America. And as a scientist, someone mentioned, oh, how did you find the 60?

I'm like, I had nothing to do with choosing the 60. I just made sure that they were age 50 to 79 years old. And... Outside of that, I told clergy, community members, everyone under the sun that if they knew someone wise. And it was very hard to find these people, but I did, and I spoke with them. And then after meeting with them, I came up with eight elements. Well, that was like my next question. So what was the process that you know of for nominating the people deemed wise for the project?

And can you give us a little a little bit flavor of what the difficulty of finding them was because i'm sure i'm sure it can't be easy to find these people no and they were all over the place and so and initially i had a definition based on reason on literature and it was people who made sound decisions gave good advice you know i had a few different recommendations based on literature, but as I spoke to people, they knew, oh, yeah, I knew this person I went to college with who is wise,

so they nominate that person, or. Oh, yeah, I knew this person, or just that's kind of how it went, and they didn't really stick to definition. They knew that one person, And that one person that they knew, you know, the wives knew someone that was wise as well. And so they nominated two or three people and it just went on like that. So you basically stuck with ages 50 to 79 in the United States and Canada. Yep. Okay. What thought went into selecting?

I know there were 10 questions you asked the wise people about how they live their lives. How did you integrate scientific methodology into your study? So there's two kinds of research. One that deals with numbers, quantitative, and one that kind of takes a story and converts it into data, and that's qualitative.

And so as I spoke to people, a team of me and two others reviewed the interview. And after every interview, we assigned a person certain traits. And based on that, they collapse into the eight. For example, it's helped us feel like positivity. If someone talks about gratitude being a big part of their lives, or if they're really funny, so humor and positivity, or humor and gratitude is one to positivity.

So the people who have humor and who have gratitude end up with the positivity trait as well. And when I say trait, it's kind of like element or trait kind of goes hand in hand. It's the same thing. Okay. That's how we did it. Now you identify eight elements of wisdom. Can you please tell us what they are in order of importance?

And can you be missing any of these eight elements and still be considered wise so it's funny because other people i spoke with when we reviewed the tapes only one person had all eight okay most had two to five a lot had five but. Only one had eight. And so I guess my answer to that is, yes, you can be good at one thing and not good at the other. In terms of order, I will say the most prevalent is the first.

And so resilience, kindness, positivity, spirituality, humility, tolerance, creativity, and curiosity. And I believe even though curiosity is the final one, I feel like to have all the others, you need to have curiosity. Okay. Now, let's go over that again. So for our audience, it's resilience, kindness, positivity, spirituality, humility, tolerance, creativity, and curiosity. What was the element most often found among the 60? And did age of these people play a factor?

Well, they were all, we didn't look at the association between age and whatever it was, you know, whatever they had, but resilience was the first one. And the majority of the people had overcome horrible life events.

But yet as I say to many they were not bitter they were not upset they were not angry they were at peace there was a woman I won't forget she lost two husbands, and she was like there was nothing I could do about it all I could do was laugh for example her dad came and lived with her I remember and he had a below the knee. Amputation. So he couldn't even walk. And instead of thinking, oh, that's going to be hard for me, I had to shower him and take care of him.

She was like, oh, he was a great, he had a chance to spend time with my kids. That was how she viewed it. So positivity was big for her as well. Yeah, yeah. And sometimes you find that people who have a lot of adversities are some of the happiest people out there if they have that positivity factor. Oh, I totally agree. And that's what I found. And in the 60 people I interviewed, I definitely found, I mean, I feel like the top three elements were probably common, more common than we even think.

Resilience, kindness, and positivity. And I feel like the three are part of their lives. But as I said, only one person had all eight. Now, do you think perhaps wisdom changes through the generations? I don't know. I mean, I do know that it's now taking the backseat. And so here we are in the age of social media. Yeah. We're in the age of people. You're still a matter of time. You're still a matter of time. Or one other. People, here we are in the age of social media, and people...

Just like the glist and glamour, what they're seeing. And you mute this off and, oh, I wish I had my Facebook profile. I live my Facebook life. And the last thing social media promotes is humility. And that was one of our eight. And the last thing social media thinks about is wisdom. It talks about how can you be better at whatever you're doing and what letters do you have behind your name? So I feel like it's taken the back three. Is it different based on generations?

I feel like right now it has gone. It's not as important and I definitely don't feel like it is and but i think it'll bounce back yeah now for our audience out there some people might be equating wisdom with intelligence they're not really related are they they're not and you know it's funny because one of my editors before my book was published emailed me he goes you know I always thought I was, he goes, I know I'm smart, but I realized after reading your book, they're not wise.

And I said to him, what do you mean? He's like, well, I don't have all eight. I don't have, and I tell people, just think of the people you know and think back. There are plenty of people who may not have all the degrees or the intelligence that you amount to, but they're very wise. They make good decisions. And. Vice versa, you know, you may know someone who's done a lot, achieved a lot, is really smart, but they haven't made good decisions, they don't live a good life. Right.

And so, they're not related at all, and they're not necessarily, wisdom is not associated with, I mean, look, when you see more wisdom in those that are older, does have an inverse relationship with age, and that those between 50s, 60s, and 70s are wisest. But we all know people who are older and don't make good decisions. So it's not that all older people are wise either.

Yeah, that's true. Is it possible, doctor, for a person to go on a journey to become wise? Is that possible? I think so. And it's funny because one of the interviewees was nominated by a medical school friend of mine. I told you, I literally told everyone. And so this was a friend I went to med school with and she nominated someone. And the person I spoke with was like, this person had no idea,

but I had been on a mission to find out about wisdom. and she was sharing so many different texts with me about how she had been. And so my thoughts about that are first... It can be very difficult to get a face-to-face therapy appointment these days for those who need it.

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Please click the link in the podcast notes or below this video ad for detailed information and to order and start your therapy journey today to become a happier you. First of all, when you... Think about wisdom, realize it's not an I see it when I know it type of thing anymore. I have to find it. And when you look at it, you can say, well, like, for example, even for me, spirituality was a hard chapter to write because I'm a physician and we never learned about that.

And as a physician, I always learned if you don't see it, you can't measure it. It doesn't exist. Or kindness. I'm Middle Eastern, and where I came from, kindness was viewed as weakness. And so I believe that, yes, now that I've broken it up, you can say to yourself, I'm really good at this, and I'm not good at that. And it could become your mission to become good at X. Okay, that makes sense. That answers that question, so it's possible.

Now, of the eight elements of wisdom, which element surprised you the most? And which element was the hardest to write about? The spirituality was the hardest to write about. I wrote about that. So in my book, I have an intro chapter and a final chapter, but I really spent each chapter committed to the theme, the element. And I remember when I wrote Spirituality, the editor I was working with was

like, no, it's not going to work. And so I just put it aside, and I, at the very, very end, rewrote it. And completely rethought about it and wrote it. But it was very hard for me initially. Kindness, as I mentioned, I didn't grow up with it. And I wasn't surrounded by it. And the people around me just didn't respect it. So I was surprised by it when I saw that it was so important to the people I interviewed. Yeah. So kindness was the one that surprised you.

And spirituality was the one that was the hardest to write about. Yeah, and that's, yeah. So we're not talking about religion. We're just talking about spirituality. No, Tony, because I specifically talk about in my book how you may be both, but they're not necessarily the same. Yeah. Maybe religious, but you may not really understand spirituality or vice versa. Right. Now, about kindness, can you talk about the importance of self-care and how it relates to being wise?

You know, it's funny because whenever you see someone, think about it. If you see someone who breaks you off in the street, honks a lot, seems really angry, you think to yourself, that person must be suffering. Or I think, oh, that person must be, imagine how they are to themselves.

And so I feel like the people I spoke with, kindness was not only an element that they looked at when they chose their friends or whatever, people surrounding them, but kindness was important as to how they treated themselves and how they took care of themselves. In a way, it's like saying your cup is full, your bucket is full. And if someone is happy with themselves, most likely they'll be happy with other people.

Those people that you see that judge others, you know, probably their most forced critics, they judge themselves. Yeah. Especially that guy behind you honking the horn. Right. Now. They want perfection. It doesn't exist. Yeah. Were there any, let's call them, sub-elements that almost made the list of the eight? Because I know you narrowed it to eight, but there's probably more out there. Well, you know, it's funny because someone asked me, were there any that you cut out?

And I said, no, everything just collapsed into the eight. So, for example, I know creativity.

It was not only how someone thought about you know whatever they did or the world or whatever it was also how creative they were with their life if they're well-rounded with their life if they're creative and they were what they wore many hats like I spoke with an orthodontist who was also a magician and he felt like it was really important to see people in the dental chair, but also, you know, perform magic. And those are two totally different hats to wear, but he did.

And so, for example, a lot of the elements, not all, were, you know, a combination of other ones. Okay, okay. Now, of those sub-elements that I was thinking of, I was thinking of maybe imagination or patience or something like that. No, patience was the one that we were not sure if it should go under kindness or tolerance. Okay. And that was the one element. If someone talked about how it's really important to be patient, we put it in tolerance.

Okay. They could have gotten kindness for it as well, but that was only, but if they talk about how important it was, you know, I did go back and talk to them and say, you know, was it towards people? And like, mainly yes. And that's where I'm like, you know, if you're tolerant and you're patient with people, if you want to listen to them, it makes sense. So, but imagination is creativity as well. So, or curiosity. Yeah, I was thinking of curiosity.

Yeah. Yeah, I don't remember, but I think it was Chirassi. Okay. Okay. Now, everybody's probably asked you this.

From the project you did, did you come to a definition of wisdom? No, I believe that it was really the eight. I believe that it's having as many of the eight as you can. And that's why I don't believe this one size fits all. I don't believe that it's one or the other. I do believe that you can build whichever one of the eight that you feel like you're lacking. But I believe that a person who is wise, entertains, considers,

appreciates all eight. Okay. So besides all eight, any definition you could put into words or anything? I would say it's a combination of being resilient, kind, positive, spiritual, humble, tolerant, creative, and curious. How about telling us about the book you wrote, Common Wisdom? Who is it for? And is it written in medical jargon? Because I'm sure people are going to probably think, oh, is this some sort of medical, you know, a lot of heavy, big words I'm not going to understand.

And what do you hope the reader takes away or gets out of reading the book? Yeah. So it's funny because when I wrote the book, I specifically did not want it to be dense and hard to read. And then I had my share of writing manuscripts that were very difficult to understand and read and full of jargon.

And so I specifically did not want this to be that. And I also, given my nature, being someone that sticks to the point, you know, I'm a neuroscientist, I didn't make it a long book. I didn't dwell on things. And so someone mentioned, oh, you know, did you cut out parts? I'm like, no, if anything, when I first showed my version to the editor, he was like, this is a pamphlet. This is not that long. And so, if anything, it's longer than what I would have written.

But both he and I agreed that we wanted to be something that is simple but powerful. And I wrote it because I definitely felt like those eight elements are meaningful. And besides being the defining factors of wisdom, because wisdom is kind of like an intangible, superfluous idea, they are really the secret sauce to living or mastering life, a great life of joy and meaning and success. Yes. So I wrote Common Wisdom and common is because those are the common elements.

I wrote Common Wisdom really because I knew I wanted to improve everyone's life. And look, we all go through difficulties. We all have challenges in life. Life is not easy by any means. No. And I think it just helps you to have a book that kind of can serve as your mentor or friend throughout all this. And that's what the goal of Dictron Wisdom is. Yeah. And I think everybody can look at those eight elements and try to do better.

You know, if they know, you know, they're not a humble person or whatever, they can try to get some humility. So, yeah, it's definitely a great book for that. For teaching people what they can improve on. Now, what did you personally get out of the project, and did it change you in any way? I think what it did for me is made me pay attention to the elements more. And so, for example, I always tell my husband how kind he is, and I notice that the kids really care about that too.

And I'm a very strict person when it comes to how I am with my youth, but I know I can see how they love it, that he is so kind. So I think that's it. I'm just noticing things more. Of the elements, I'm noticing more. Or, for example, as I'm going through this difficulty, you can hear my voice. I'm not 100%. And we found out it's chronic Lyme disease, but A friend of mine who read the book was like, well, your first element was resilience. I'm like, all right, I have to get over this.

So I think it just made me pay attention to them more. You think if a doctor read this book, it would change the way they practice medicine?

I think so. I mean, I've gotten commentary of how it's changed lives, of how it's changed the way people think it's saved in marriage. I've gotten different thoughts. And I think I do have to say, in knowing how physicians think, they would respect that I come from an academic background. You know, I've published a lot in academia. me in. And so they would definitely say themselves, well, you know, it's done by someone who's committed to doing good work. Let me see what she has to say.

And they'll read, see the seeds they read, and yes, it would change the way they practice. Okay. Now, do you plan to continue your research on this subject any further, or is this going to be it? You know, it's funny, I just wrote the journal, and I wrote the book as we know as we talk. And I'm like, you know what? It was not easy to do write that book. And so, no, I don't plan on anything in the future.

And I do plan on, one time better, shedding the light on others, and I enjoy public speaking. So that's something I would pursue in the future. But that, no, I don't feel like that would be my future. Is doing more work on this. I've done my fair share. Okay. Well, what kind of feedback have you gotten on the book from people who've read it? You know, I've gotten that, you know, first of all, yes, I get it. It's not easy to get someone to stop their lives and read it.

But when they do, they're like so sharp that it's so easy to read. Yeah. That is so simple. But yet there's so many takeaway points and they feel like they feel lighter. They feel like they're happier because of it. And they really appreciate, some mentioned how they appreciate how I have people from different backgrounds in there. I'm like, that was not in any way my choice. No, it's people who nominate other people. It was just, you know,

people that people recommended. Yes. So the feedback I've gone so far has been very positive. And I just, I feel like, you know, it's, we're just at the start. But, I mean, they did get published this year. But, you know, my goal is for everyone to know about this book.

Well, you know, it just dawns on me that this kind of thing, wisdom, is not taught in schools. No. And, boy, who's ever listening to this podcast, I've read the book. It's a great book. Get a copy of it and buy it for your kids. I mean, your kids can learn a lot from this book because this is not taught in school. They're not going to teach this kind of stuff in school. And they really should. Your book should be in every classroom.

Yeah, someone was saying to me, I was really, those eight are elements that are not taught in school and they would only lead to a person living a better life. And I agree with her. and I agree they're not taught in school and they're not important in school but they should be and I agree yeah. Now, how can people contact you, and how can they obtain the book?

So the book and the journal, as I said, the journal, by the time this goes live, the journal, I mean, the journal list came out yesterday in 1 December. But the book and the journal are on Amazon. Okay. And if anyone wants to contact me, they can do it through the website. Okay. There's a contact me tab as well. But I agree with you. I think that this book, Common Wisdom, is something that everyone should have a copy of. It's so easy to read.

And it has such important information in there. I think it can enrich anyone's life. Dr. Gabania, how long did it take you to write this book? Well, the ideas in there took 10 years, right? 10 years. A lot of thoughts that went into every chapter took years. Wow. Natural writing, I was used to writing because I've written so much. Yeah. The writing didn't take that long. Right. Now, I would probably say it took me a total of six months to write.

Yeah. four or five months and with me going back and forth with the editor. But I'm used to writing. And I had already written a lot. So the research took the longest. Well, the research is funny because I started in October of 2022. I ended in April of 2023.

I started writing the book, I want to say in May of 2023, ended in September or October of 2023, and published this in 2024. But as I said, a lot of thoughts that were in there were things that accrued over the years. Okay. Like humility. It should not make you feel big to make someone else feel small. Yeah. Or I may have said it in a different way, but the bigger the fall, the higher the jump. Right? Right. And it's not physical. It's not like literal.

It's just the bigger the fall, the more you probably learn and the harder the jump. Well, I want to thank you so much, Dr. Gabin, for being on the podcast.

And enlightening us on this subject of wisdom. I want to encourage our audience to pick up a copy of the book. The book is being promoted on several of my podcast episodes. It's also in my book nook, which is new on the podcast website. It's at rapwithrap.com. So pick it up for your kids, if anything, and it's going to really do a lot of good for them. and I wish you nothing but success going forward. Thank you so much for being on.

Thank you for having me. If anyone is interested in learning more about me, they can go to lauragabine.com. I know that's a hard name to remember, so they can go to the original website that you said, RecruitMy60, which was the wisdomresearchproject.com. That one feeds into lauragabine.com. Okay. And that's going to be in the podcast notes. So for people out there, I'll put it in the podcast notes, comments and suggestions for anyone out there. You can email me. It's a rap with rap at gmail.com.

We have a Facebook group. We have about 2000 people in there. It's a private group. If you're interested, you can email me and I'll get you in. If you're on Facebook, Instagram, it's a rap with rap, the podcast we're on X at rapper W R A P P E R one Our website, once again, is itsarapwithrap.com. All the episodes are in video format. YouTube, it's a wrap with rap, the podcast uncut. I want to thank everyone for listening. I want everyone to please stay safe. And for now, it's a wrap.