Navigating Life After a Traumatic Brain Injury with Kelly Tuttle

Music. Welcome, everyone, in the United States, Canada, and around the world to another episode of It's a Wrap with Wrap, the podcast of overcomers and useful information to better our daily life and mental well-being.

I'm your host, Ron Rappaport. I would like to thank all our listeners, our viewers, and our sponsors and supporters for making the podcast such a success. The podcast may also be accessed through our website, it's a wrapwithwrap.com, where you can find all the episodes, previews of future episodes, and unique products and services offered from our sponsors, as well as the podcast Book Nook, which is showcasing many of the books our guests have authored that can be purchased on Amazon.

My guest today is Kelly Tuttle. Kelly is a member of the Head Injury Survivors Club, as she describes it, due to another car pulling out in front of her as she was driving and causing a horrible crash. Kelly's traumatic brain injury, we like to abbreviate that TBI. Marked the beginning of a new life and personal journey of self-discovery.

Kelly is a neurology nurse practitioner. She holds a Bachelor of Science in Nursing from California State University, Fresno, and a Master's of Science degree in Nursing from Gonzaga University. Kelly is a longtime martial arts student and has a second-degree black belt in Kempel Karate and a blue belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and is an award-winning author of her book titled After the Crash, How to Keep Your Job, Stay in School, and Live a Life After a Brain Injury.

Kelly is here with us to share her coping strategies and tools to help other brain injury survivors continue to work and study While they heal and educate us on the importance of being aware of head injuries So we can help ourselves and help others know what to do if that type of injury occurs in our lives Welcome Kelly to the podcast. Thank you for having me. What a fantastic intro. Thank you. Well, thank you. You deserve it. And as we were talking off camera, I'm also a TBI survivor.

So we'll get into a little bit of this and go back and forth.

This is a very important topic considering it is estimated between 3.2 and 5.3 million people in the United States live with a disability caused by a traumatic brain injury. And those are statistics from the CDC, which is probably a low estimate because only those hospitalized are counted in those figures. Also, 2.8 million in the United States suffer a TBI yearly. So please tell our audience who you are and how you became involved in the specialty, of traumatic brain injury.

Well, like you said, I'm Kelly Tuttle. I'm the author of After the Crash. And my story starts with the thunderous clap of metal and the shattering of glass. People running out of their homes to see what's going on and the distant sounds of sirens. And I was in a pretty bad car accident. But despite having some injuries, I thought I would shake it off and go back to life. I actually went to work the next day.

And my colleagues who are also nurses noticed that there was something wrong and they promised, they had me promised that I would see my general practitioner the next day. I saw my general practitioner. I left with a feeling that I would be better in two weeks.

So I went back to life and I worked really, really hard to work, be a mom, stay up on my responsibilities to the point of about two to three months after my car accident, I fell asleep at the wheel and I was awoken by my car bouncing off the road and was able to slam on my brakes and stop my car from striking a tree by about 12 inches. I then had a conversation with a colleague who was at the time a neurology nurse practitioner. I was a cardiology nurse practitioner.

And she was curious to see how I was recovering after my concussion. And I explained all the symptoms I was still having. And then I mentioned, oh, yeah, and I fell asleep at the wheel. And she was like, what? And I said, yes. That'll raise some red flags, Kelly. Well, you know, it didn't for my brain because my brain said, well, we'll just take a nap halfway in between work and home on the side of the road. Which I don't recommend. That is not safe. Please don't do that.

But this is how my concussed brain was problem solving, trying to get me through day after day. And so my colleague said, hey, you need to get a brain scan. I hadn't had one yet. You should see a physical medicine and rehab doctor. And I was like, what's that? And she's like, oh, they used to be physiatrists in the past. And I was like, oh, oh yeah. Okay. I did what she said. I met with the physical medicine rehab doctor. And after that, I started to get on the right road of recovery.

I was taken off work for three months, was sent to speech therapy, physical therapy, neurotherapy, and started to slowly get better.

And in the process of trying to get better and reading everything I could possibly find on brain injuries in the brain. I became passionate about neurology. And after a friend's encouragement that I'd make a great neurology nurse practitioner, I begged and pleaded and did everything I could to qualify for a training position. And two years after my car crash, I started a job as a neurology nurse practitioner. And I've been there ever since have been very happy.

Okay. So you said that the car crash was pretty horrible, right? I mean, was the car totaled, that type of thing? Yes. Did the EMS take you to the hospital? Well, they wanted to, but I knew what happened to people who were in car accidents taken by the ambulance and stuck in an ER because I previously had been an emergency room nurse myself. And I didn't want to do that. So I, you know, I, I declined, which hindsight, not a smart idea.

I don't recommend it. Right. Was that the concussion talking to you? Probably. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just, you know, in shock from the car crash. Yeah. Because they probably would have done at least a TCT scan, I would assume, at the hospital, just to see what's going on. And then, okay.

So I wanted to ask you, what are some of the main obstacles for a TBI patient for keeping their job and those trying to stay in school and pursue their educational goals? What do they experience as an obstacle to do that? That is a huge question, Ron. So I'll try to answer it the best I can. First of all, one of the obstacles is recognizing by their providers, their general practitioner, that they actually have a concussion.

A lot of people will fall like you had or be hit in the head or be in a car accident. And a lot of the medical care they will get will focus on either their whiplash or say they fell and broke their arm. But nothing is, the brain's not considered in that accident. There is a lot, there isn't a lot of understanding about how people sustain concussions and the impact the concussions can have on an individual person. And everyone's different. Some people like you, you know, fell, had a brain bleed.

You're doing, you know, pretty much okay. Me, nine years ago, car accident. Now I have sound sensitivity, light sensitivity, difficulty and motivation with, yeah, motivation, focus and concentration and neuro fatigue. And then somebody else could have problems with balance, difficulty with walking. So everybody's symptoms are different. So first they have to get diagnosed. Their symptoms need to be identified.

Then they need to be given the tools to cope with those symptoms and the right therapies. And then they need to be able to implement those while they're at work and in school so they can continue to work and study while their brain is healing. Okay. I was talking to Kelly offline and I had a couple bad falls and I did wind up in the hospital from. An abrasion on my eyebrow. And then I had my lip was practically taken off from the fall. And I hit my head pretty, I hit my head really hard.

It was, it was like somebody just punched me in the face and it was, it was, it was really something. And they did a CT scan on me and they said everything was okay. Well, just to let everybody know out there, they can do a CT scan and everything can look okay. But four or five months later, that's when I had my problems. And it was from probably a slow brain bleed, which they didn't pick up on a CT scan, right, Kelly? They needed to do an MRI.

Well, I had my MRI four or five months later, and then I had to go the next day for that day for emergency surgery. They had to drain the blood off my brain, or else I wouldn't even be here talking to you, what they said. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. They said it had to happen immediately. So a CT scan is fine, but I would get an MRI just for everybody out there. It doesn't take much to fall and hit your head.

And you may not think it's a big deal, but it can be a big deal. So with the obstacles you face, what new methods did you use to learn differently since you had like fatigue and all that? What new methods are out there? Well, I used to learn by reading, reading and taking notes and then watching and then doing. And I loved reading. I used to read for hours before my car accident. And then afterwards, I found I could only read for five or ten minutes at a time. Wow.

And then sometimes I didn't even remember what I read. So I had to highlight, take notes and so forth to try to remember. And so then what I found, and then before my car accident, I couldn't listen to something and learn. I had to read it. And then after my car accident, I was surprised to find out I could actually learn from listening, listening to audiobooks. And so that's how I switched my learning and absorption of information is to listen to audiobooks.

And then I also utilized using YouTube videos. Fortunately, YouTube videos were around when I had a car accident. And from their YouTube videos, you get the audio, you get the video, they have closed captioning so you can read, you can pause to take notes. And so that's how I was able to start to relearn again. And as I pushed myself to learn and expand my reading tolerance, my cognitive stamina, I was able to do more. And I've just kind of added to that. So let me give you a picture.

Before my, when my car accident happened, Ron, I could not make coffee and toast. I would, I would put the bread in the toaster, make my coffee, forget the bread, sit down, have my coffee and wonder why am I hungry?

And my, and my husband's like, why is all this dry bread being left in the toaster yeah and then i would lose my my coffee mug and there'd be coffee mugs all over the house i have i have gone from not being able to make coffee and toast at the same time to writing a book to starting an online business and that's just being small steps at a time just small steps so in the beginning it was a lot of short-term memory loss,

Yes. Yes. Yeah. I noticed that when I had my fall and then after the surgery, things start coming back, but things are really slow in the beginning. I'll tell you that. Yes.

Now, is TBI a broad scope diagnosis? And if so, does it complicate things, you know, with the healthcare industry? The It's a Wrap with Wrap podcast is so fortunate to have Australian author. Artist, illustrator, happiness coach, and international speaker, Andrew Matthews, as a sponsor and supporter. Andrew's books, including Being Happy, Follow Your Heart, and Bouncing Back, have sold over 8 million copies in 48 languages in 70 countries.

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Oh, very good question. So just, so before TBI was considered an acute injury, you had it, you were supposed to get better and that's it. But now research is showing that no, that TBIs can lead to things like epilepsy, multiple. TBIs can lead to Parkinson's, dementia, and dementia. So it isn't a one-time thing. It's kind of like a risk factor for neurodegenerative diseases such as Parkinson's and dementia, as high blood pressure and diabetes are a risk factor for heart attacks and stroke.

Right. So just recently, I think it was a year ago, Medicare actually approved traumatic brain injury as a chronic disease. And that's huge. because that means that it's going to get down to the frontline healthcare providers that this one impact is not the end of the story and that this person needs to be monitored through a lifetime. So if you have a young child falls off their bike and strikes their head, they get better.

Then in their 30s, they get in a car accident and they strike their head. But they get a little bit better, maybe some deficits. But as you get older, you really want to lower your risk of more neurological disabling issues, such as like stroke. So if you have all this in your background, these TBIs, the last thing you want is a stroke.

So your doctor would want to monitor your risk factors for stroke because we don't want you ending up at 65 or later, not being able to enjoy your retirement because now you have dementia or you have vascular dementia.

Yeah. Does that make sense? It does. Yeah. We touched on this, but maybe you can just kind of expound on it. Explain to us what a CAT scan and an MRI can tell us and what it cannot tell us. Right. So that's a really good question. So CT scans and MRIs are really good at showing bleeds, skull fractures, and tumors. But they don't just because, say, you fell, you hit your head, and your CT scan and your MRI are normal. That doesn't mean you didn't have a concussion.

The diagnosis of a concussion is based on history and symptoms. Okay. Because what symptoms are caused by what's going on at the cellular level in the brain, between the neurons. Right. And it's, our technology is not, at least in clinical practice, the technology is not there to be able to see down to the cellular level. No, we're not, we're not sophisticated. The technology is not sophisticated enough to tell that. Yes. And I'm talking more of people with mild traumatic brain injuries.

Now, someone with a severe brain injury, MRIs can pick up severe axion shearing, diffused shearing. And some people have died from that. And that's when the neurons are attached to little branches and those get torn and disconnected. And if there's enough of it, it can kill you. But if you have a mild concussion or even a moderate concussion, that's not going to show up.

So it's possible, and I'm sure it's happening every day, where somebody has the concussion, they get an MRI or CT scan, everything shows up good. You know, I'm sure they get released, they go home, and then they start having problems. So there's probably countless people walking around with problems that aren't being tended to. Is that correct? Yes, yes. Yes. It's, in fact, a large portion of our, I can't say the word today, population in our prisons are traumatic brain injury survivors.

Really? yes and so it's terrible but you can have a concussion and and then not what know what's really going on unless someone identifies it for you because it's hard for the person with the injured brain to monitor and or have a perception of, what their actions are leading to or the consequences.

And so it can, their behavior or their personality changes, or their symptoms, you can develop depression and anxiety after a concussion can manifest into loss of work, job, because of irritability or bursts of anger. You could lose your relationship, your marriage, your partnerships. Some people will have sleep difficulty or, like I said, anxiety or depression. They might try to self-treat with alcohol or drugs. And you could see how this spirals and how we lose this person in our community.

Well, something just popped up in my head. You know, sometimes you turn on the news and somebody does something crazy, like they, you know. Drive a car into a crowd or, you know, something on that order. And then they start interviewing everybody, you know, their neighbors and their friends. And they go, I don't know. I mean, the guy was normal every time, you know, I saw him. So it's possible that that could be a cause of something like that.

It could be. And my brain injury has taught me to have more understanding and compassion for others. So when I do see somebody with a behavioral issue or acting out in society, that's what I often think. I'm like, there could be something wrong with them in their brain. It could be a mental health issue. It could be that they have a brain injury or a history of brain injuries. Or, you know, I just have a lot of compassion. I don't judge, you know. No, no, I agree with you.

I don't judge people either because you just don't know, you know, it's that old thing like you see somebody sitting on a bench crying. Well, you don't know why they're crying. You know, you can assume that they're in pain or something, but maybe they're not. It may be totally unrelated. You just don't know.

Yeah. How difficult is it to find a provider to treat a traumatic brain injury? I know you mentioned there was a certain doctor. What was it? A physical? Physical medicine and rehab doctor. P-M-R. Okay. So P-M-R. Honestly, I've never heard of them. I didn't either. I'm sure. The vast majority listening to this had probably never heard of it. Where do you find these guys? How many of these PMR doctors are out there?

They are out there. And then the profession, the physical medicine rehab doctors, have our next. To all patients and caregivers out there, Rare Patient Voice, a supporter of the It's a Wrap with Wrap podcast, is paying for your input. Patients 16 years and older and caregivers, family, and friends of any disability, disorder, syndrome, illness, or condition have the opportunity to express their opinions through surveys and interviews to improve medical products and services.

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So it is really hard to find these individuals, but I think that you can look through your provider plan and, you know, look for a physical medicine rehab doctor. Now, a lot of people think that they should see a neurologist. And this isn't necessarily true because neurologists take care of patients with brain diseases such as Parkinson's, multiple sclerosis, epilepsy.

And physical medicine and rehab doctors, they take care of people with brain and spine injuries. So after a brain injury or a stroke, the PMR doctor is better to see than the neurologist. Okay. But you would need the a surgical neurologist to begin with for the surgery part of it, if he needed surgery, correct? Oh, if he needed surgery, yes, you would have to see the neurosurgeon.

Right. And then they will sometimes have you seen by a neurologist if they put you on prophylactic anti-seizure medications, if they're worried that you will have a seizure due to that. Yeah, I know they put me on an epileptic drug. Was it Keppra? Yeah, I think it was. Yeah. It was Keppra. Yeah, they put me on that for 10 days. Yes. Just to make sure there wouldn't be a seizure. Would it be safe to say that these PMR doctors are probably located in urban areas?

Yes, yes. So people out in the rural areas would have to seek them out and travel. Okay. Yes. or try to get a video appointment. Telehealth. Yeah, you could do telehealth first, and then if they need you to come in, then you could come in. Okay. So we've learned a lot, you know, because like I said, I've never heard of the PMR doctor, and I was in the medical field. To some extent, I was in the pharmaceutical field, but, you know, I just never ran across them.

Do you feel that TBI patients fall through the cracks of the medical field, such as, you know, loss of jobs, divorce, mood issues, not a lot of guidelines, and what can be done about that? Well, I don't think that we know the extent of it, but there has been some researchers that have looked into it. And I've seen in some of my patients that spiral. Yeah. And so I know it can happen.

And I think that personally as a provider, what I think should be done is that when you have someone who's had a sudden acceleration, deceleration of the body or the head, they should be monitored for a concussion because the brain is not affixed in the skull. It's floating a little bit. Right, right. So when you have that acceleration, deceleration, it gets slammed against your skull. Right.

So I think that anybody who, you know, like we've talked about has a fall or what fell off a bike or got punched or something like that or something hit, you know, struck them in the body. They should be closely monitored just for a little bit to make sure they're okay. So I like to, on the initial visit, check them out, ask them some questions. I follow up two weeks later because I want to know if things are getting worse or better. Because that's how you catch those bleeds, those slow bleeds.

Do you see a lot of athletes, like football players? No, no, I don't. No, I just see your average, Joe. Just the average. Yeah. And then after the two weeks, then I would follow up in a month. Then every three months for the first six months, and then six months for the first year, and then every year after that, if they have prolonged symptoms and need support. Yeah.

So tell us, Kelly, about the healing process. What is a realistic goal to recovery and will it ever be 100%? Well, everyone is different. And in the medical community, they say, well, you know, you could get better within a few weeks to six months to two years. You know, there's within that two years, you do see a lot of leaps and bounds in the recovery. After the two years, though, the changes are more incremental and subtle, but they do happen.

I think with a significant impact and loss of numerous neurons, you're not going to see 100% recovery. I mean, if you think about it, if you break your ankle, your ankle will heal after six to eight weeks. And then you do some physical therapy and it gets better. But it might feel weaker, like it's easier to respring easier. It might swell every once in a while. It might ache in the winter.

Now to expect a brain a squishy little organ with tiny tiny connections and cells to heal 100 is really unrealistic yeah but we with the discovery of neuroplasticity we know that the brain is willing if supported to create new connections and so you may not be 100 your old self, but you can see improvement. And if you do get left with some deficits, you can support that with tools and compensatory tools and strategies.

So would you say that people going through this process, they have to kind of let go of the old brain and know their new brain? Yes. The limitations that are now present. Placed on them. Yes. So if you are left with deficits and they decide to move in rent-free with you for longer than you planned. Like your coffee and your toast. Yeah. Then there is a grieving process. There's a grieving of the loss of your previous self.

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But you need to be able to carry it, your package and move on to embrace the new person you've become, your new personality, your new way of learning, your new way of seeing the world.

Do you find people accept that pretty much? I have. I have seen other traumatic brain. Survivors really thrive after their brain injury. But I've also seen people who have had traumatic brain injuries that are stuck. They're stuck at that point where they had the loss and they don't move on. They ruminate about the past and I used to be able to do this and this shouldn't have happened to me, that kind of thing.

And if you are in that position, you're having a hard time moving on, then I do recommend eliciting a psychologist, a therapist, do talk therapy, psychologist, if you're having issues with mood modulation, depression, anxiety, to speak to either your general practitioner or if it's really tough to help you out, a psychiatrist to help you navigate that transition. Right. Did you acquire new strengths from your recovery to the new you? Did you change?

I mean, cause you, you know, you really suffered from it. I, I did. So when you talk about letting go of the old and the new, I, for, I, for some reason went out one day on my deck, I took my recovery journal and I took a piece of paper. I drew a line down the middle of it. And on the left side, I wrote all the things I used to do and was passionate about and my goals that I had before the car accident.

This was about a year after my car accident. And then on the other side, I wrote all the things I gained from the car accident. I was more patient, more empathetic, compassionate. I was living more in the moment, and I was more grateful for the things that I had in my life. Whereas the person I was before, I was go, go, go, accomplish goal, accomplish goal, move on, do another goal, go, go, go, busy, busy, busy. And I like the person I am now better.

Yeah, I can relate to that. I think I feel the same way. People who haven't, you know, I hope nobody ever has this problem. But, you know, any kind of health calamity, you're going to change. And you're going to realize, you know, we talk about it all the time, material things do not mean much at all. You're very, just be grateful for what you have and what you can do. Because there's a lot of people that can't even do that, you know? Yeah, yeah.

Do you have any do's and don'ts for those involved in the caregiving role of a traumatic brain injury patient? I would say don't argue. Don't argue with them, huh? Yes. I often tell my caregivers that if the person you're caring for is ruminating and seems to be escalating their behavior, to back away, give them space, maybe gently remind them to use whatever they've learned from their therapist, whether it's deep breathing, maybe go to a quiet space, maybe lie down.

And then the other thing is not to take what they say personally, because even for myself, I said things that I regretted. And it was more out of, not that I wanted to hurt the person, it was more of a reaction from my brain. So I was feeling overwhelmed and overstimulated and it made me irritable and grumpy and I would snap. Yeah. And so I would tell caregivers to not take that behavior personally. And some of the things like my patients will snap at me too.

I will say, you know, I'll say, you know, that person, I don't think you really meant to say that to me. I think that was your brain talking, you know, things like that. Or, you know, it's like, I don't think you meant that. I think your brain made you do that or, and stuff, or I'll have a patient talking in a loop, in a loop, in a loop, saying the thing over and over. And I'll say, I just wanted to let you know that your brain has told me that five times now.

And they're like, oh, oh. they start laughing yes yes they're like oh i'm sorry i didn't realize that because they don't yeah so just be gentle and if you yeah and if you don't if if you put it on the brain and not you said that to me you were not nice you say i think your brain's being overwhelmed, and it has snapped at me and and just wait for it to kind of you know i would say uh would you say the caregiver should probably go to their appointments?

Every appointment. Okay. Because they may not remember or they may hear something. Or they don't tell their providers what's really going on because they don't know. Yeah. You know?

Right. Now, what prompted you to write the book After the Crash, How to Keep Your Job, Stay in School, and Live Life After a Brain Injury? I guess you wrote it five years after the crash. Can you tell us what the book is about and where it can be obtained? Well, I wrote the book because before I was to return back to work after being off for three months, I was really worried about how I was going to function at work.

And I was looking desperately for things that would support my brain's performance. And it was really hard. The information was scattered widely through the internet at the time and in various books. And so I wanted to create a specific brain injury recovery book that only talked about strategies and tools of returning back to work and school. And that's what my book has in it. It has the symptoms to check out to see if you have. Then it tells you the specialist to see for those symptoms.

And then for those symptoms I have strategies like if you have sound sensitivity using noise counseling headphones and then I talk about getting oh and I talk about the five pillars of recovery that's sleep exercise nutrition mindfulness and finances finances can be significantly impacted if you're not able to work or work full-time. And if your finances are not in order, it's hard for you to feel healthy and do the right things. That's for sure.

And then the last chapter of my book is about getting back into life. So getting back to driving, going back to work, asking for disability accommodations, utilization of Family Medical Leave Act to protect your job, when to hire a lawyer, and when to talk to financial specialists if necessary. Well, like I said, I read the book and it was very well written. And anybody who's gone through this TBI journey needs to get it. Where can it be obtained?

You can buy the book off my website at kellytuttle.org, but it's also available in indie bookstores and Amazon. And I also have it on Audible for people who are having a hard time reading and they can listen to the book instead. Okay. And how can people contact you? I know you said kellytuttle.org. Yes, yes. Is that the only way or is there another? I'm also on, I have a YouTube channel, which I post content on that educates about brain injuries and how to work and study with a brain injury.

What's the YouTube channel? It is Kelly Tuttle Brain Loving Advocate. Okay. Put that in the podcast notes. Yeah. I'm on Instagram and Blue Sky and LinkedIn too.

Instagram. Okay. What words of advice do you have for people out there regarding head injuries? Take them seriously. Definitely take them seriously. Yeah, yeah. later. Yeah. So you got to pay attention that, you know, as it's not just, Oh, for two weeks and then they should be okay. You got to continually monitor. Yeah. To see if things change and personalities change, if they, you know, become impulsives, you know, like spending money, gambling, gambling, gambling. Well, yeah.

And, you know, that brings me back to that, that one issue when, when people have these injuries and they go to the emergency room, you know, and they say, well, yeah, you know, it looks good. I don't know. I mean, they, They don't say, hey, you need to go to your GP. You need to stay in contact with this and check this out every month or so. And then, you know, increase it to every three months if you're not having issues in six months.

And that just doesn't seem to be getting, they're not doing that. No, it's really terrible because they're just sent home with a list of symptoms to monitor for. And they're usually just red flag symptoms. And they don't have like, oh, if you're irritable, you know, you know. People interrupt you at work, you know, you see your doctor, you know. Right. We're falling short on that. And you're doing a good job, you know, with the book and advocating for this.

Yes. I don't want anybody to go through what I went through. No. Are there other advocacy groups out there for this? Yeah, so let's see, there's Brain Injury of America website. They have a lot of information. It's mostly for, I think, military folks, but they have tons of information on their website about symptoms and treatments and information. And then the CDC website has information on mild traumatic brain injury and symptoms to watch for and monitor.

Okay. Because people need to know this. And, you know, like I said to everybody out there, it doesn't take much to knock your head pretty, you know, hard. It might not even have to be hard. It can still cause problems with your brain. So be on alert for that. And I want to thank you, Kelly, for being on the podcast. It's a subject everyone should be aware of, and this knowledge that you're giving us really could save a life.

So thank you for being on. I want to wish you good luck going forward in your work. Anything comes up, you write a new book or you have more to say on the subject, we'll have you back. Oh, wonderful. Thank you, Ron. I really appreciate the chance to talk to your listeners. Thank you. It was a pleasure talking to you. Comments and suggestions for the podcast, you can email me at itsatwrap.gmail.com. You can join our Facebook group.

We have a couple thousand members in there. It is a private group. So if you want to join, just email me and we'll let you in. We're on Instagram. It's a rap with rap podcast. And that Facebook group is it's a rap with rap. And we're on X or Twitter at rapper, W-R-A-P-P-E-R one three zero. Our website is it's a rap with rap.com. All the episodes are on there. The book nook is on there and we're on YouTube. It's a rap with rap, the podcast uncut. I want to thank everyone for listening

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